← Focus on the Family with Jim Daly
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- [00:01]
Jim Daly
For more than 20 years, Susie has been listening to Focus on the Family, finding spiritual encouragement and practical help for her marriage and family. And that's why she donates every month to the ministry.
- [00:13]
Josh Walters
I know that any gift to the.
- [00:16]
Katie Walters
Good work that Focus on the Family.
- [00:17]
Josh Walters
Does will have eternal consequences for whoever happens to be listening to the show at whatever time.
- [00:25]
Jim Daly
Hi, I'm Jim Dailey. I'd like to invite you to join Susie and become part of our Friends of Focus on the Family team.
- [00:31]
Josh Walters
Just never endure what God can do with any offering. We may not know the ripple effect caused by our gifts, but we can be sure that they will be used towards his kingdom.
- [00:42]
Jim Daly
Working together, we can be a lifeline to families, giving them godly truth and hope. Join our monthly support team today by calling 800, the letter A and the word Family 800 A FAMILY or donate@focusonthefamily.com Families.
- [01:05]
John Fuller
Imagine having a conversation with a hurting friend who feels like something's off in their marriage. Their spouse seems distant and maybe involved with somebody else. And then what if in that moment you discover your spouse is the someone else and your spouse is being unfaithful to you? Well, that's what we're talking about today on this best of 2024 episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Thanks for joining us. I'm John Fuller, and today we're bringing back this powerful story of betrayal and redemption.
- [01:37]
Jim Daly
John, research shows us that certainly infidelity is one of several reasons divorce can happen. But this is probably the most critical thing that can happen. Even the Bible talks about this as the one reason people can leave a marriage is when there's unfaithfulness. It does strike me in such a positive way when a couple can hang on because again, it should not define you. And the strength of the marriages that I see that go through this are far stronger because they're totally exposed, right? You really know each other after something like that. And those marriages, again, not all of them can survive that. But those that do, man, they are bonded in a way that's very different. And today we want to talk about it. This is an extremely difficult issue thinking of something that we've created called Hope Restored. It's one of our four day intensives that couples can go to. Many of the couples who come to Our hope restored 4 day intensive have gone through infidelity. And the great counseling staff there can unwind that and help those couples rediscover each other and intimacy and trust. It takes time to rebuild that. But I'M so looking forward to the program today because again, we are in a sexually saturated culture. Sometimes these things happen and I think the Lord smiles when recovery can occur.
- [03:06]
John Fuller
Yes. And that was the case for Josh and Katie Walters who lived this out in their own marriage. We featured their amazing story last year and it really resonated with so many listeners and viewers. And so that's why we're bringing it back today. Josh and Katie serve on the staff of Seacoast Church. It's a multi campus ministry in South Carolina. And they've written a book about their journey called New Marriage. Same couple. Don't let your worst days be your last days. You can find out more about the book and our guests and our Hope Restored program. We've got all the details for you in the show notes. And now here's how we began this best of 2024 focus on the FAMILY with Jim Daly.
- [03:51]
Jim Daly
Josh and Katie. Welcome to FOCUS on THE family.
- [03:54]
Katie Walters
Thank you so much.
- [03:55]
Jim Daly
Really good to have. So appreciate it. When we come into a story like yours, I always want to acknowledge right at the front the vulnerability of this. And I've always thought that's got to be a little uncomfortable to always talk about your worst day on this earth, you know, over and over again. But people do benefit from it and I'm so grateful that you guys are willing to do that.
- [04:16]
Josh Walters
We're honored, too. The more we have, we realize the more people, you know, our story is a bit extreme, but most every marriage experiences places of pain that are often silent. And so just talking about it, we feel like opens the door for a lot of helpful conversation for people.
- [04:31]
Jim Daly
Well, let's pop the story open and start talking about that revelation of the affair. John kind of described that at the beginning of the program. But Katie, what were the circumstances that led to your revealing of this situation? I mean, everybody's going to have a different way that that's done. It's like a fingerprint. Nothing is the same.
- [04:53]
Katie Walters
That's right.
- [04:54]
Jim Daly
What was going on in your life? What was day like when you told your husband, okay, we got a, I got a problem?
- [05:01]
Katie Walters
Well, I still look back at that day as such a bad miracle in a way because I don't know, I don't know how the Holy Spirit just got those words out of my mouth because if you have ever been in a place before where you've hidden anything and you've had this secret sin, it can feel like it's going to swallow you, you know, and that day I'd actually gone to a Bethmore simulcast. And I was in the back of an auditorium, and she said, there's a girl in this room that's in a pit so deep she can't see her way out. And I knew she was talking about me because I had this secret life, this secret sin, you know, this communication with this man that I hadn't told Josh about that were also our close friends. And that night, I came home from the simulcast again. I don't know how I got there by myself. It wasn't at a church we were serving at. It was a church across town. But the girl from the couple, the man that I was having the affair with, the girl came over to our house that night, and she was just in brokenness. And she started crying and saying, something's wrong with my marriage. You know, oftentimes they say women can feel there's something going on, something. So she came in.
- [06:09]
Jim Daly
Both of you were there?
- [06:09]
Katie Walters
We were both there sitting with her in the kitchen.
- [06:11]
Jim Daly
She was expressing this and, you know.
- [06:12]
Josh Walters
Exactly what's going on, which was normally not the case. It's part of what made it the bad miracle. But me happening to be there sitting down outside with them hearing her process and me being confident, like, no, there's no one else.
- [06:25]
Katie Walters
I don't think there's someone else in my husband's life. And Josh was like, absolutely not. You know, I know him. This would never happen to him. And when she left that night, as soon as she got out the door, I looked at him and said, what if it's me? What if it's me? That's all I said. That was the moment. And again, which had to have been just the spirit getting that out of me, you know, to. To say that. And that was that. We often say in these stories of confession, it's usually the 10%, the tip of the iceberg, that the person's willing to get out. And there really needs to be grace for that in that moment, because it's really challenging, you know, to expose the whole of the entirety of the betrayal, the hiding.
- [07:09]
Jim Daly
That's a really unique situation. You know, the fact that she kind of sensed something was wrong, and then that was partly due to you. I mean. And to say that in front of the two of you walk out. Can I ask. I mean, that period of time, how was this? A year, six months? And was it just emotional or was it the whole way?
- [07:31]
Katie Walters
Yes. So it started probably a year earlier, emotional, just in my mind, you know, and we used to talk a lot in the. I guess the earlier days about 20 years ago about emotional affairs. If you guys remember the book that came out, Every Woman's Battle, you know, where she said, women, you can have this emotional affair. You start dressing for someone, you think about their life, you covet things of their life. That was definitely happening for about a year in my own heart and mind, but not that I would have told anyone, you know, not girlfriends, family, just let my mind go there. And we say to couples that the enemy, you know, even Starting in Genesis 3, the enemy who is there often plants things in our minds in our thought life. And that thought life is trying to take you somewhere. During the course of that year, I just continued to hide from Josh. But what happens was that perspective also starts to shift your perspective on your husband. You know, you start to see their weaknesses. Do they even love me? Do they even care about me? So I think that was happening for about a year. But then on May 29, we had our third son, and he was in the NICU. He was really, really sick. So again, you can imagine I'm on bed rest. There's all of that happening in the relationship. And we also often tell couples that the enemy is just wa. You know, nobody wakes up thinking they're going to have an affair or betray their husband, but the enemy will just be patient and wait for the right opportunity. And I think that was the right opportunity in our life because we were in such a thin place. And that's when the man and I kind of said in this moment of the NICU, like, that we had feelings for each other. That was at the end of May. And so from the end of May to August 8th, when I confessed, I just was in the summer of hell is what I called it. You know, trying to constantly connect with him, the other man, and also try to manipulate Josh and hide from him, not let anyone know, you know, he's a pastor on staff at the church. I'm still serving in the church. So that summer was just devastating.
- [09:32]
Jim Daly
Katie, let me ask you. And then we're obviously going to ask you some questions, Josh. But in that context, the older I get, the more complicated these situations are. And I think, you know, when you're young and. And your faith is building and you're living for the Lord, that tendency towards self righteousness can occur. But I think the thing that I'm learning is that we never understand the full picture of what vulnerability has been created that nudges us toward these things, toward the enemy lying in wait. And I think that's what I so appreciate about what Jesus was expressing, that he knows our pain, he knows our shallowness, he knows where we ache. And, you know, he's here to take all that away. So I'm just thinking of the couple that, you know, may be going through this right now. There is forgiveness, there is grace, and I just want to. I know we're early into the story, but, you know, someone's just crushed because they've just heard the news last week, they went through it.
- [10:36]
Katie Walters
That's right.
- [10:36]
Jim Daly
I just, you know, be careful about how you judge others. And, you know, the end of the story is brilliant and it's good and it's a God outcome. It doesn't always work out that way. So, Josh, coming your direction, I mean, the door slams in the next few minutes, Katie turns to you and says, what if that's me? And what did you say? What do you mean, what if that's you?
- [10:59]
Josh Walters
That's exactly what I said.
- [11:00]
Jim Daly
Yeah, that seems right.
- [11:02]
Josh Walters
You know, I remember much of that night in like, HD in terms of sitting down, emotions flaring. All of a sudden, we're all out in the front yard, all four of you, all four of us. And I don't know, you see people walk through really difficult things and I think maybe just subconsciously question like, could I do that? Well, I've looked back on our story and questioned like, man, could I do something like that again? And just feel like in that season, man, it was such a grace covered season where God had given me what I needed for the day, every day. In terms of walking through it.
- [11:36]
Jim Daly
Let me ask you, I mean, again, for the person that, I mean, they may already be divorced. The affair happened. They're looking back now. They're listening. How did you find that grace? How did you want to find that grace?
- [11:50]
Josh Walters
I think I had always had a stubborn faith that going back to our vows, for better, for worse, for richer, poorer, sickness and health, like, there was a commitment that I made that I will finish this race with her and that we felt called to have a large family. I think a lot of our love early on was based on kind of the youthful infatuation with one another.
- [12:15]
Jim Daly
Sure.
- [12:15]
Josh Walters
And I knew there was a love like the father's in the sense that, you know, while I was a sinner, he died for me. He chose me. It wasn't about him just delighting in this kid. And there was a new place of love through pain that was largely a choice that wasn't going to be, you know, as shallow or as driven by attraction and infatuation. And so ultimately, I would say it's all God. You know, I was committed and surrendered to what I believed best. And I believed that me finishing this race with her was God's best. And so I was going to walk through that.
- [12:50]
Jim Daly
Let me press you, because again, this is the one place some theologians would argue, too, that abandonment also fits into this. I'm not here to debate the theology of all that, but certainly infidelity is the place that God says, that's your exit if you want to choose it, that you're justified to do so. Why did you not choose that path? I mean, you kind of just said it, but speak to the person who did choose that off ramp.
- [13:23]
Josh Walters
Yeah. So I'd say two things. One, there's very few things that Scripture speaks to that God hates. And I hate divorce being one of those. So part of it for me was knowing, like, okay, I know that on my worst of days, he saw me and chose me. I can't imagine a worse day in our story. And if my love is supposed to resemble the Father's love for her, I'm going to be all in on this and believe God doesn't want us to have a mediocre, mundane story. Me choosing to stay isn't going to bring about a okay outcome like fullness. Abundant of life is what he's going to author through the midst this pain. But for the person who's chosen another path, man, his grace is sufficient for you. He's kind and loving and gracious and forgiving. But ultimately there are consequences to all of our decisions.
- [14:15]
Jim Daly
Yeah, you're a pastor, so you're counseling couples. Why do you think God said this? Breach of confidence, this breach of trust is one reason, the reason I would let you out of that covenant of marriage. Even though he hates divorce, why do you think he says this is one spot where you can make that decision? It's intriguing to me because God does hate divorce. And so it's kind of fascinating that this breach even outruns God's command to stay together.
- [14:54]
Katie Walters
You know, the whole act of infidelity and betrayal is. Is a soul tie that connects you to another person. And when he talks about this hardness of heart, it can be as if you've left the relationship, you know? And so I just think God's grace, giving allowance for that, that each person has to make their own choice. But I think about your response to compassion when you first heard my story and you said, you know, I just, in vulnerability, want to say, hey, Jesus still loves you. He still loves Sinners. And I think about that's what Jesus did when the adulterer was thrown at his feet, is he recognized, you know, we all get lost sometimes, like, and he stepped in with compassion in that moment and instead drew to her, you know, and pushed the accusers away. And so I think. I think he makes allowances for all people because we get our own choices, but that God's heart, his character is compassion to draw towards those that are hurting, that are lost, you know, And.
- [15:50]
Jim Daly
I even think, though the whole metaphor, scripture being the bride and the bridegroom, that the Lord is saying, even though you're a harlot to all of us, that you don't love me the way you should love me. I mean, the whole thing is in this context of trust and betrayal.
- [16:04]
Josh Walters
And I think I largely felt like I was praying God's will. Like, he wants us to have a rich, full, and satisfying marriage. And so ultimately, the work. I knew there was no switch in her that I could flip to make her want to stay, to make her love me. But I think much of my decision, commitment, choice in that season was aligning with, like, God, I know you want this boy.
- [16:27]
Jim Daly
What else could you do?
- [16:28]
Josh Walters
Yeah, you brought us together. Yeah, do it.
- [16:32]
Jim Daly
That's amazing. Josh, let me come to you again because you created an acronym. Maybe both of you did this together. I don't know. But stay. Give us the acronym definition, and then we'll come back and look at a couple of those elements.
- [16:47]
Josh Walters
Yeah. So S is start with me. And that's in a situation like ours where it would seem very easy to point a finger at who is at fault. Just to acknowledge, especially in the context of marriage, there's some percentage of this that's my responsibility in terms of the culture that I'd created in the home. T is take quitting off the table. That's kind of the thought, especially as Katie shared earlier, that people can quit long before they leave. And if it's quit in their mind, in terms of their commitment to their marriage or in their heart long before they leave, A is allow others to be a part of your story. And in ours. From the outside, we appeared healthy, but no one really knew the stuff that was going on in our home or in our hearts. And then why is yield division. And that's about building a desired future together, having agreement, alignment between who are we becoming? Where are we going?
- [17:37]
Jim Daly
That's good. Maybe with your permission, we'll post that on the website so people can just look at that. And certainly we're Going to offer you the book which has all the things you need to know. But going back to S, let's get into that a little bit with S. Go a little deeper in that definition.
- [17:51]
Josh Walters
Start with me.
- [17:51]
Katie Walters
Yep.
- [17:52]
Josh Walters
Yep. So in our story, I knew that there was nothing, you know, you've heard, if one person gets better, the relationship gets better. And I knew in our situation, there was nothing that I could do to change Katie's mind or heart. There was no measure of convincing. She thought that I just wanted to win. I didn't want to lose with a best friend and him being the one that she was in a relationship with. So she didn't trust my motives. She didn't necessarily know that she loved me anymore or really liked me. And so really all I could do was focus on me. And there was a confidence that, God, I know that this isn't your will for us. You don't want to rip our family apart. You don't want to see us go through a life without one another. You brought us together. And so I just focused in on God of like, okay, if we're going to emerge from this together, and if we're going to emerge from this better, then I've got to let you start with me. And so what are the choices I made that led us to this place?
- [18:50]
Jim Daly
It's interesting because I think a counselor would suggest that that usually takes a little time for the victim, if I can use that terminology, to get to that place, that I had a role in this. What are you talking about? I didn't have the affair. She had the affair. And you got to get through that. So that's a great path that you got there so quickly.
- [19:10]
Josh Walters
Well, I still had all of the anger and grief. I still went through the full gamut of emotions, but it was a matter of what do I do today? And even as a pastor and I sought God more in that season than I ever had before. I was unemployed. Church had quickly dismissed me, and we were kind of like void of community or a church family. And so Katie was still a school counselor and I was home with the kids. And so they had a morning rest and an afternoon rest that was really, Katie would say, like, kids don't have two naps. And I was like, well, while I'm the stay at home dad they do, I needed just the sanity of going after God for those two full hours to get me through the day. And so I think that's where God really brought about that, that work.
- [19:55]
Jim Daly
Katie, how about you start with me concept? I mean, yeah. How did that work for you?
- [20:01]
Katie Walters
Well, it does seem easier when you're the one that's fully out there exposed, you know, but the reality is, you know, how we had gotten to that place was I had these desires outside of the covenant God had given me. And what do you do when you have desires more than your marriage outside of your marriage? And I think these principles of start with me we still use today. I mean, they will help you rebuild in any season. And so for me, what I had to start with me was to start questioning me, you know, start questioning the lies that I was believing. Start questioning. I'm thinking this is love with this other man. What I. My first realization was that it was self love, and it took me a while to get there, that this is called self love, this is called selfishness. And that whenever there's this desire gap between what God has given us and what we want, that is actually an invitation for us to go to Jesus. That gap is our invitation. Whether you find yourself in a betrayal situation or just you're wanting more, you know, I want more from my marriage. I. I wish we were more fun. I wish we had more adventures together. All of that gap is meant to actually, you take that to the Lord and to each other to build intimacy with you, Jesus and your spouse. So starting with me, really started questioning with me, is there any lies I'm believing, any ways that I'm discontent or dissatisfied? And I've blamed that on Josh. I was a master, what I call blame shifter, where if our life was not going up into the right, there was one man that was at fault for that, you know, and I blamed him for all of that. And so a lot of these principles in the book, you know, again, really helped us rebuild when we were standing on rubble, but they have also helped us even today to, hey, we just want to. We want more. We want to go to a new place with tea.
- [21:50]
Jim Daly
Take quitting off the table. I mean, a lot of people say, you know, the D word is not in our vocabulary. However you want to say that. But for you, the Lord spoke directly to your heart. Something to do with. I think you can have my feet. So let's connect these dots.
- [22:04]
Katie Walters
Yeah. So again, take quitting off the table. For me, I think I'm naturally a quitter. He is not. He is more faithful, you know, but I have a high quit factor. And if there's anybody listening, that's like me, Jesus still loves you, but he will meet you to strengthen you towards faithfulness, towards endurance, and so when I would spend time with Jesus, he would give me these words of, hey, you are actually quitting in your mind. You're still going places. You're still not believing that I can restore this marriage. I would think that if I stayed with Josh, I would have done the good Christian thing and I would have ended with, like, a pal. But God would show me, hey, I am the author of all things emotions. I can resurrect anything. You know, don't quit in your mind. Really give me your feet. And so that was my language. I would say, God, you can have my feet. My heart is not all the way back yet, but I would say, you can have my feet. I'm going to commit myself to you, to your plans, trust myself.
- [23:02]
Jim Daly
Josh, in that vacillation. I mean, what kept you engaged? How did you navigate that pain and fear about losing her? I mean, it would have maybe been different if Katie came back that night and said, I'm all in. I'm so sorry. I love you 100%. I made a mistake. Please love me. Please take me back. But it wasn't quite like that. She was vacillating, which again, puts a lot of pressure on you to trust the Lord in the process because you weren't getting the affirmation.
- [23:36]
Josh Walters
Yeah, well, that's where the great news of you can have my feet. It was like, man, that was the best news ever, because at least we were using real words. And I knew just by way of her saying, I don't know that I love you anymore. It was evident on her face. I could hear it in her voice. But the fact that she was telling God, you can have my feet, just meant that we're going to be under the same roof every night. I would pray over her. Every night after she had fallen asleep, I could be the one to serve her when she got home from work. I'd have her cheese and crackers, a little wine and snack plate. I could go on walks with her in the evening. It's like all the little things that I had taken for granted earlier on in marriage or had not done, it's like, man, I was going to do in this season because I felt how fragile the relationship was.
- [24:20]
Jim Daly
How did Luke 23 work into your calculus there?
- [24:24]
Josh Walters
Ultimately, it helped me separate Katie from the act that she had committed. God just helped me see very clearly, like, who she is is not what she has done. Yeah.
- [24:35]
Jim Daly
And that is God forgive them, for they know not what they do.
- [24:38]
Josh Walters
Exactly. And so on a day where if I'm Jesus looking at these people that had mocked, beaten and persecuted. I'm thinking they know exactly what they've done. Yet his prayer was, father, forgive them, for they know not what they've done. And so I feel like a big part of that season. You know, you would never get mad at a spouse or a friend for getting up in the middle of the night and stubbing their toe and waking you up like, gosh, what are you doing? I'm sleeping. Well, ultimately, Katie had made a decision in a dark place. And so in this season, I could either remind her of her name means pure at heart. I could remind her who God created her to be. I could be a picture of him to her, or I could take my anger, grief, disappointment, frustration out on her and it just drive us further apart. So ultimately, I took all that to God every day in hopes that he would be the one to work and our hearts at home and rebuild something special.
- [25:32]
John Fuller
Well, such a powerful choice that Josh Walters made for his marriage. And we're so thankful for how God restored Josh and Katie's relationship. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller.
- [25:44]
Jim Daly
John, it's no wonder this was one of our best of programs in 2024. And I believe many couples will benefit from what Josh and Katie shared. If you or someone you know has experienced betrayal or a cris that has put your marriage at risk, I want to urge you to get help right away. Focus on the Family is here for you. We have many resources like our counseling team and our Hope Restored marriage intensives where we offer godly hope and the practical tools you need to repair your marriage. Many marriages have been rescued through hope Restored and our research shows that when we go back to those couples two years later, there is an 80% success rate of saving that marriage. And I'm so grateful for that.
- [26:29]
John Fuller
Yeah. And we have details about Hope Restored, of course, also Josh and Katie's book, new marriage, same couple. Don't let your worst days be your last days. We'll send you a copy when you make a donation of any amount to the ministry of Focus on the Family. Hopefully we can encourage you to make that a monthly pledge. If you're not in a spot to do that, to make that kind of a commitment, a one time gift is certainly appreciated. Call and donate today. Our number is 800, the letter A in the word family. 800-232-6459. You can also find details about Hope Restored and our counseling team and this great book, New Marriage. Same couple details are in the show notes.
- [27:09]
Jim Daly
And let me say this, if your marriage is in a good place and you have a heart to help other couples experience a healthy and God honoring relationship, let me invite you to partner with us financially. Right now we're recruiting monthly sustainers, people who will commit to a monthly pledge to Focus so that we'll have the budget and manpower needed for the hundreds of thousands of couples who contact us each year for resources and help. You can do ministry through your giving here at Focus on the Family and together we can be a lifeline for hurting families.
- [27:45]
John Fuller
Join our friends of Focus on the Family team when you call 800 a family or donate generously when you click the link in the show notes. Well, thanks so much for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back for more of Josh and Katie's powerful story as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
- [28:14]
Josh Walters
If the fights with your spouse have become unbearable, if you feel like you can't take it anymore, there's still hope. Hope Restored Marriage Intensives have helped thousands of couples like yours.
- [28:26]
Katie Walters
Our biblically based counseling will help you.
- [28:29]
Josh Walters
Find the root of your problems and face them together. Call us at 1-866-875-2915. We'll talk with you, pray with you and help you find out which program will work best. That's 1-866-875-2915.