← Focus on the Family with Jim Daly
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- [00:03]
Mary
I have listened to Focus on the Family shows since I was probably a later teen, all the way through my young adult years and beyond. I guess I just found that so often whatever message was being aired was really pertinent to something either I was experiencing or it was just of such interest that it was like I was able to accumulate knowledge and spiritual wisdom.
- [00:27]
Jim Daly
Mary is a big believer in what we're doing to help families thrive.
- [00:31]
Mary
I feel like Focus on the Family, you know, makes deposits into my life or the soil of my life. And it's kind of like rain. It just accumulates and nourishes and can bring growth in, you know, knowledge and wisdom.
- [00:45]
Jim Daly
I'm Jim Daley. Help us be a lifeline to more people like Mary. Join our friends of Focus on the family by calling 800A FAMILY or donate@focusonthefamily.com families.
- [01:04]
Katie Walters
I would think that if I stayed with Josh, I would have done the good Christian thing and I would have ended with like a pow. But God would show me, hey, I am the author of all things emotions. I can resurrect anything. You know, don't quit in your mind. Really give me your feet. And so my heart wasn't all the way back yet, but I would say you can have my feet. I'm going to commit myself to you, to your plans.
- [01:30]
John Fuller
That's Katie Walters describing the spiritual battle she had about whether or not she'd stay in her marriage. The good news, of course, is God transformed Katie's heart and healed the relationship with her husband, Josh. I'm John Fuller and welcome to today's episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. We're returning to one of our best of programs from last year which featured Josh and Katie's rather miraculous recovery from infidelity. Now, we heard part one of the conversation last time and if you missed that, we have an audio copy available for you. You can check out the entire interview on YouTube or through our Focus on the Family app, so you can access this great content whenever you want.
- [02:09]
Jim Daly
And John, we should remind our listeners about some of the great content from the 2024 Best of Collection. We feature top notch guests like Dr. Kevin Lehman, John Burke, Lee Strobel, Dave and Ashley Willis, many others. 18 programs in all on topics like moms in anger, how birth order impacts your marriage, and evidence for the existence of God. That's a pretty good library and this is really outstanding content for your family. Best of all, the entire collection is free to you, so I urge you to visit our website to Learn more.
- [02:44]
John Fuller
Yep. We've got details for you in the show notes, and we're also going to have information about Pastor Josh and Katie Walters and the book that they've written about their journey is called New Merit. Same couple. Don't let your worst days be your last days. All right, Jim, here's how you began part two of this best of conversation with Josh and Katie on today's episode of FOCUS on the Family with Jim Daly.
- [03:11]
Jim Daly
Josh and Katie, welcome back to focus.
- [03:13]
Josh Walters
Thank you for having us.
- [03:15]
Jim Daly
Glad to be here. It was really interesting and I so appreciate, again, that vulnerability that you express. And you know, I said it last time, I'll say it again, to live that worst day of your life over and over again. But it benefits other people. And I'm grateful that God has given you the courage to do this. And I know it's not easy, but thank you for doing it. Absolutely. We'll get into more of the benefits of a road less chosen, which is to stay together to fight for your marriage, to get through an affair and to come out on the other side with what I would say would be a stronger relationship. Would you agree?
- [03:53]
Josh Walters
Definitely. Absolutely.
- [03:54]
Jim Daly
So that is a good benefit right there. Let's just start with that goal in mind and let's continue on. We talked last time about this acronym you created, which is Stay start with me. In other words, you and God work some things out. What did I do to contribute to this? I think that takes a lot of courage. You may not get there on day one, but that is the goal. You go into any counseling, that's what they're going to talk about in marriage counseling is, what part of this do you own?
- [04:22]
Josh Walters
I'll tell you another part of that I didn't mention in the last episode. It is God, what is my responsibility in this? But it was also Psalm 34:18. God's close to the brokenhearted. Like there was grief and pain that I needed comfort that's easy to take to your spouse, hey, help me with this. Comfort me in this. You're not meeting my needs. So, yeah, S was very much a me and God starting point.
- [04:44]
Jim Daly
There's such a deflecting approach that we as human beings have. I mean, David had it right until Nathan confronted him. But we have an incredible inability to look at ourselves. I mean, we're generally perfect. We didn't do anything wrong. He was the problem. She was the problem. Lord, deal with her. That's not what the S is for. I don't even know an S word that starts with Deal with her or deal with him. Right. It's deal with me. Start with me. So that's good. T was take quitting off the table. Some describe that as, divorce is not in our vocabulary, and that's healthy. Allow others to be part of the story and then yield to the vision. So in that T, just to finish off, because we didn't get to this question last time. Josh, during your recovery process, you and Katie did something called confessional therapy. I'm not familiar with that. So how did that work in this situation?
- [05:42]
Josh Walters
We had never in the past confessed our sin to each other. And so a lot of that is the thought of, you know, God is faithful and just to forgive us of all of our sin, cleanse, purify us from all unrighteousness. But Scripture also speaks to confess your sin one to another, that you may be healed. And so I think there was a lot of healing in that season that came from really it being the first time that we confessed the hardest thing to one another. And so it brought us to a place of sharing. You know, Katie would say things like, hey, I used to wear this headband for him, and we would throw it away together. You know, I'd never been so excited to throw away a headband. Or she would share a thought, and every time she did, it was so counterintuitive because you would think something so painful would drive me away, but it was an invitation closer. And that I realized, like, man, she didn't have to tell me that. And she chose to. And so it somehow built intimacy the more we were willing to do that, and we had to get language around it because it wasn't common. Especially for me, it would be really hard. So I'd have to say, like, hey, can I tell you something hard? And it let me know, is she in the frame of mind? Is she stressed with the day and dinner and the kids? Can I say something like that right now? Or she would say something like, hey, can you handle me? And that was her way of saying, like, hey, I'm about to say something that could hurt you. And I would have to, you know, yeah, this is a good time. Right?
- [07:07]
Jim Daly
Well, that's good transactionally, because you could be in not a very good emotional place.
- [07:11]
Josh Walters
Totally.
- [07:12]
Jim Daly
That's the last thing you want to hear, right? Moving on into that. Allow others to be part of the story that look like. I mean, that could be really dangerous. I would think initially that, you know, can you trust these people if you're going to talk about your situation?
- [07:30]
Katie Walters
Well, one thing that helped us in this part of our story is I had a night, probably the lowest night of our whole story, where Josh had found out something I had not confessed to him. He was really upset. We were at my parents house and that was the first night that he had chosen not to sleep in the bed with me. And I was so full of shame. And in this night, I actually was so low. You know, that shame is trying to take your life. I mean, truly, for anybody who's felt this shame before.
- [07:58]
Jim Daly
And where is this in the process?
- [07:59]
Katie Walters
This is probably about three to four months afterwards.
- [08:03]
Jim Daly
Okay.
- [08:03]
Katie Walters
After the revelation, after the confession, we're here at my mom's house and we're still trying to rebuild. But of course I have all the public shame. But now I also feel this just distance with Josh, largely because there was.
- [08:15]
Josh Walters
Still the like pursuit. I mean, the vacillation.
- [08:18]
Jim Daly
Yeah.
- [08:18]
Josh Walters
So you were like holding her back.
- [08:20]
Katie Walters
Yes. And so in this night, you know, I honestly got a knife. I mean, I was feeling so low. But I also had my Bible beside me, and I pulled my Bible towards me. And in this low moment, I started to hear God's voice. And I started to hear him say, katie, I love you. I have plans for your life. Once I could start to hear the voice of God again, I realized he was kinder than any Christian I had ever known. Any Christian. He is that loving and that kind. And that freedom started to help me understand that we didn't have to hide anymore from other people. We, we had been the pastors, the leaders. You have to know what you're doing. You have to have it all together. But that changed in our story because we started to realize, why would I fear man when I have a loving God who knows everything, who still loves us?
- [09:09]
Josh Walters
Yeah. And I think for me, that's where early on, part of it was what I would say was adulting. You know, we were in early 20s and had gotten master's degrees, started building a family, our first professional jobs. And no one put it on me, but I just felt this pressure to posture, to be the man that had the answers, to be successful.
- [09:28]
Jim Daly
I think that's very normal. I mean, that's what we think we have to do. Even though we're inadequate at doing it, we want to picture ourselves as having the answers.
- [09:37]
Josh Walters
Yeah. And it works for you at times, until you find yourself in a situation that you can't fix.
- [09:43]
Jim Daly
And so, Katie, I don't want to rush by that because, you know, that was a suicidal ideation. I mean, you were thinking, I Mean the fact of a knife in a Bible right there, that's quite powerful.
- [09:55]
Katie Walters
Well, John 10:10's always been our life first. You know, we like carved it in our driveway of our first home. But we say we didn't pay enough attention to the fact that the first part is a warning, you know, the second part is a promise.
- [10:07]
Jim Daly
But when he says thief comes to.
- [10:09]
Katie Walters
Steal, kill and destroy. And whenever you've been faced with a temptation, or like I said before, when everyone gets lost, you know, at times away from God. But the enemy's goal is to steal, kill, and to destroy our lives. And that's what shame is meant to do. That's why as Christians, we need to draw close to those that are broken with compassion. Because that's what Jesus would do, you.
- [10:33]
Jim Daly
Know, and I would hope in that desperation, you know, especially teenagers, just in the issue of suicide, I mean, there's a suicide hotline certainly call for help, make sure that that pain is known by your family. My wife's family has suffered that twice. Two suicides within her family. So it's an unfortunate thing to get to know how to respond in those situations. But it's a desperate time. It's the lowest a human being can be. When you're actually thinking of taking your life because of that shame, it's so true.
- [11:07]
Katie Walters
And that's when you know this is critical moments. There's many critical moments in your life, but you definitely need outside voices, godly voices, counsel. You know why I love all that you offer here with focus on the family, but that's the allow others to be a part of your story. Because we had realized that the enemy was not each other. We had a real enemy that we were fighting, but we also needed guidance to help us rebuild. And so it was easier to do that in brokenness because we were at such a point of humility. But we've encouraged so many couples. You know, Josh always says disciple means learner. So humble yourself to grow to a new place in marriage, you're going to have to allow others to come alongside of you often to give you perspective you don't have.
- [11:51]
Jim Daly
You know, when I think about it vocationally, there's probably no greater an example of oil and water than being a pastor and having an affair within that context, either the pastor's wife or the pastor. And it happens. So I can only imagine that shame could run pretty deep. How did you get on your feet spiritually with that beyond your small group? You ended up, I think, going to Seacoast Church was that after the situation.
- [12:21]
Josh Walters
So we were still in Columbia, and I met a guy named Mack Lake who seemed to just embody husband, father, pastor, normal guy, but loved God. And he was the first guy that I met that really gave me a vision for the kind of man I wanted to be. So I asked him, hey, if I can cut your grass, wash your car, if there's anything I can do to just be around you. I would drive up from Columbia, and he was the leadership development pastor at Seacoast at the time. And we would do goal setting, and he would be like, all right, Josh, what are your goals for this year? And I just remember thinking, like, I'm unemployed and my marriage is busted. My goals, Breathe.
- [12:58]
Katie Walters
What are you talking about?
- [12:59]
Jim Daly
Breathe and eat are my goals today.
- [13:01]
Josh Walters
And I remember he processed it with me. And I remember one of them being. He challenged me to be mentally present, not just physically present. And so even just walking through the process of creating goals like that in a painful season, I just think I. Man, it was a day at a time, a step at a time. God giving me what I needed for that moment, for that day, and trusting him with tomorrow.
- [13:24]
Jim Daly
How about you, Katie? What was their message to you?
- [13:26]
Katie Walters
Well, it was incredible. So we moved to Seacoast, really, to be around Mac and his wife, Cindy. And my mom was on staff there as the women's pastor. But we didn't think we would ever do ministry again. I really thought I had taken that from Josh. And, you know, we saw Mac as this man and Cindy as people that focused on their family. You know, you think about. Everybody says, I like that. Exactly. Like, everyone says they want to focus on their family, but do they really, you know, got a ring to them. That's right. But they did. They really prioritized their family. And so when we would sit with them in small group week after week, you know, they just had hope. They had never been through betrayal like we had. In fact, Cindy used to tell me, I mean, max just always been my best friend. And I'm thinking, your best friend? I can't stand this, man. You know, I was just in such a dark place. But they just gave us hope. They're like, God is with you. God's gonna get you through it. You know, I would look at her, and she would say, what are you scared of? And I would say, I'm scared of me. Like, what if I do this again? You know? And she would say, God is with you. God's got you. You know, she just gave us hope and love, encouragement, and walked with us through pain. And it definitely changed our life because that's what we hope to offer others when we sit with them and couples and have coffee with them is just to give them the same supernatural hope that if God is for you, nothing can be against you. He can renew, you know, all things. So they continued to just do that for us, which was incredible.
- [14:49]
Jim Daly
You talk about celebrating markers. I think, you know, the Old Testament, certainly the Jewish people did that. They'd have a battle and then build a monument by piling rocks up, and that became a marker of a great victory or whatever. It might be a moment that the Lord obviously intersected their lives.
- [15:05]
Josh Walters
Yeah.
- [15:06]
Jim Daly
What are celebrating markers in this regard?
- [15:09]
Josh Walters
Well, I remember the dark days, which anyone listening may be in right now, where every conversation leads to an argument or where it's been a long time since you've seen the, like, fun and flirty eyes or really enjoyed each other. When you've been through a long, dark season and have a moment that is life giving and hopeful, it's like, man, you can't not celebrate because, like, something different happened in that season. In particular, a silly example. Talk about Katie having the spiritual gift of sleeping in the car that anytime I start it, sometimes it feels like before I pull out of the driveway.
- [15:41]
Jim Daly
She'S like, it's kind of warm and cozy.
- [15:43]
Katie Walters
That's right.
- [15:44]
Josh Walters
But I remember a day where we were driving around Charleston running errands, had got home, and I had the realization, like, she didn't fall asleep. Like, we talked the whole time. She was engaged and with me the whole time. And I just remember it being such a line in the sand of our relationship, because that's kind of stuff we did in college. Like, there was so much anticipation to be around each other.
- [16:05]
Jim Daly
Talk, talk, talk, talk, talk.
- [16:06]
Josh Walters
Was never gonna sleep when she's around, you know, and. And it happened again, you know, so it's. It's just identifying that you stopped and.
- [16:12]
Katie Walters
Celebrated that, like, you didn't sleep today, you know? And the interesting thing is, Mac used to tell us that it's almost like when you've come out of some kind of betrayal, or if you're rebuilding your marriage, you go into the hospital, and people come out of the hospital in different phases. You know, some it's seven days, some you get an infection, you're there three months. You don't really have a timeline for these things. And for us, we did a vow renewal a year later, which is, I would say, probably a year later, we started to feel some lift, some spiritual lift. Some emotional lift. So celebrating the markers is really important along the journey, you know, to value look at what God's doing. Just like putting up those Ebenezers. My mom is the queen of that. Like, she literally has an Ebenezer wall, you know, in the back of her yard, where she marks God's faithfulness to our family.
- [16:58]
Jim Daly
Okay, let's get into the why yield to God's vision? Just define, you know, what that means. I think I get it, but maybe not.
- [17:06]
Katie Walters
Well, I love vision. So vision, a definition could be just a clear mental picture of a preferred future. And, you know, if anyone's listening and you lead anything, you have to give vision. You have to give a why, you have to talk about where you're going. But I feel like a lot of times in our marriage and our families, we don't do that.
- [17:21]
Josh Walters
And I would say a big part of our story came because we had vision drift in the sense that in college, we had a very clear picture of who we were going to be, what life was going to look like. But then we started having babies, we got jobs. You know, life became life. Yeah. Mike Tyson's Everybody's got a plan till you get punched in the face.
- [17:40]
Jim Daly
That's a good line.
- [17:41]
Josh Walters
And it punched us in the face. And all of a sudden, we had responded to life. Instead of going after the vision of who we wanted to become, our life looked more like the result of things that had happened to us. So yield division is really more about coming back to the source of saying, like, okay, God, you created me with good works in advance for me to do. You came that I might have life and have it more abundantly. You've uniquely given me gifts and talents. You've put me together with this person. Who do you want us to become together? Where are you leading us, taking us, and then allowing God to speak into and guide that.
- [18:13]
Jim Daly
You use an analogy about the forest and the trees. I think every parent, we've gone to that analogy and applied it in a variety of ways. Right, son, you're not seeing the forest through the trees. What does it mean in this context?
- [18:26]
Josh Walters
I would say it's so natural in marriage, especially when there's conflict in a relationship, to get locked in on the source of conflict, like, what was the thing that initiated this division, this problem, this pain in our relationship? And to focus on that instead of the perspective of believing and trusting. All right, God is authoring a much bigger story here, and he's wanting to use this pain, this problem, to sharpen us, to strengthen Us, to bring us together. And so I would say the discipline of it for us was more daily having to step back from the tension, the problem, the pain to look at. All right, God, what are you doing?
- [19:00]
Katie Walters
Yeah. What's the bigger picture? And the parenting analogy is a great one because, you know, we told you we have a 20 year old and a three year old and with the three year old, we feel like we're kind of grandparenting at this point because everything is cute, everything is adorable. We know she's going to get through the past, these days, last borns. Get through the parents. Yes, they get the best parents because you're so relaxed, so relaxed. You enjoy it more and. But the truth is what we have is just a bigger perspective. That firstborn, I was so tied up, you know, I wanted to do it all perfect and I couldn't enjoy it those moments. And the same can be true in marriage, you know, when you can get this bigger picture perspective. Just like Josh said. What's God doing? Where are we going? You don't get so hung up on the small things.
- [19:41]
Jim Daly
Josh, let me ask you about the Grand Canyon. Now this is going to be funny because I know where this is going. I've read the story. But so often if we're listening to the Lord man, he is speaking all the time. If we can slow down and actually just see it. So you're on this trip to the Grand Canyon. I think Katie's asleep in the car.
- [20:04]
Josh Walters
If I remember correctly, as a sleepover.
- [20:07]
Jim Daly
And then something happens. What happens?
- [20:09]
Josh Walters
Yeah, so we're driving up this long narrow road with just huge nothing but trees on all sides of us. Nothing of this resembled the beauty I was hoping for us to share together and seeing the Grand Canyon. And we had just flown to Scottsdale, Arizona to purchase a car and we're driving back across the country. But I was like, let's just see something beautiful, you know, to start this drive. And so we're driving up this road, trees on both sides of us. The sun's just starting to set. And I'm thinking this was a bad idea. We're not, I don't have a clue where we are. We're not going to find it. She's sleeping. All of a sudden we round this corner and the canyon opens up. The most epic view we had ever seen in terms of sunset and the beauty of the Grand Canyon. And in that moment, God spoke and said, that's how quickly your story can change. And I had been in a season where I had hope that God could do it, but I think I was questioning as to would he do it? And like how long was this going to take? And so to hear that from him, that's how quickly your story can change. It rebirthed hope in me to where every day, every time she got home from work, I knew all it took was one moment, one dream, one word from God and it could flip that switch inside of her heart that I couldn't touch. So I start crying, oh my God. You know, Katie wakes up like, what's wrong?
- [21:25]
Katie Walters
What's happening?
- [21:26]
Josh Walters
God just spoke to me.
- [21:28]
Jim Daly
That's great though. But I've been on that, that's Kanab, I believe, National Forest. But you come through that. Yeah, that view, that vista is breathtaking. And up until that point you're just on a road and then you make that turn and go bwah.
- [21:43]
Josh Walters
Because there's nothing like it and everything about it. You know, if you're walking through something like this in your marriage and it feel like a long boring road, lacking any beauty, it just reminded me that there's a much bigger narrative at play, that there's a purpose to the road. God wants to move and work and shape something in you, but he is leading you somewhere beautiful, that if you can keep going, man, he can do something special.
- [22:07]
Jim Daly
Katie, let me ask you this. The thoughts that kept rippling through your mind, and you've alluded to this a couple of times, can I really love him the way I need to love him? Fair question. Probably a deep hearted question, a desperate question. If I'm going to go the next, maybe 40 more years with this guy, I've got to be able to love him. What happened as you began to try experiments to see if this is really working, if I really am in love?
- [22:38]
Katie Walters
It really was just the whole in our weakness, his power is made perfect. Because I had a right estimation of myself at that point. And if you've ever been through a season of deep shame or brokenness, you know that's the truth. We are all sinners apart from God's grace. So I had a right estimation of myself, but what I think I had a wrong estimation of was his power, his love, who he wanted to be. His active working inside of me. And so I think, you know, that's what I got to discover over that year is wow, I have underestimated my God. You know, he's not going to leave me in this place of brokenness. He's not going to leave me as this betrayer. And that's why I think we even love sharing about our pain because we have seen all the miracles that he's done.
- [23:27]
Josh Walters
You know, another thing that really encouraged me for that in that season of would the love be real? Like, could it. The fun, flirty, free, amazing marriage we'd always wanted. Could he still do that? That word bara. In the beginning, God created that word, created as bar. And it literally means something from nothing. And so I just loved the. When she would say, I don't know that I love you anymore, I was like, check. Like, watch him. Watch him do something from nothing. You mark those words, because I know God can do it.
- [23:55]
Jim Daly
Wow.
- [23:56]
Katie Walters
And he did. Yeah.
- [23:57]
Jim Daly
That's pretty amazing. You had that attitude rather than some other things you could say.
- [24:01]
Josh Walters
Well, it was just. It was good. And it's like, man, I just feel like so much of it. The angels appearing to the shepherds, behold, I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people. Like, if you're in a season of marriage where you would say, this is not great joy, then just know that God is not done. He wants abundant life for your marriage. So if it feels like nothing, just know he is the God of creating something from nothing.
- [24:25]
Jim Daly
That's really good. And what a great note to end on. This is perfect. And I'm so grateful to you for again coming and telling us about all the flaws, but then how God tied it in a bow, and that's what's most important. And the recognition that, yeah, we're broken people. And so often in the Christian community, we're trying to put that perfection forward. And underneath that little wrapping paper is a lot of brokenness for all of us. So I love that. Just the way you turned toward the Lord and said, okay, Lord, work on me and then help us. And you're walking testimony. You're your own Ebenezer.
- [25:03]
Katie Walters
That's right.
- [25:04]
Jim Daly
So hopefully your mom has that on the wall, a picture of the two of you, what God can do to bring a marriage together. And if you're in that spot where it's not working and there's so many thoughts you're having, probably, Lord, where are you? He's there. Let's start that conversation. Give us a call. We have great, caring Christian counselors, and the donors allow us, through their financial support, to have about 20 counselors on staff. And they do this all day long. They talk to couples, talk to people about where they're at and get them started toward healing. And, of course, we have hope restored, which I've mentioned several times over these past Two days. We've seen God do miracles through that effort. Couples who were on the brink of divorce ready to sign the papers. Maybe they already signed the papers, but when they participated in Hope Restored, their marriages were healed. That can be your story too. And I want to urge you to get a copy of Josh and Katie's amazing book, New Marriage, Same couple. When you make a month pledge or send a one time gift of any amount to Focus, we'll say thank you and send it right out to you.
- [26:11]
John Fuller
Mm. Donate and get the help you need when you call 800-232-645-9800, the letter A in the Word Family. Or you can donate and get the Walters book and learn more about Hope Restored and our counseling team by clicking the links in the show notes. And when you get in touch, we're going to invite you to join our Friends of Focus on the Family community partnering with us throughout the year with your ongoing monthly support.
- [26:38]
Jim Daly
That's right, John. I mean, most people probably don't realize only 1% of the listeners support the ministry. That means 99% are engaging but not supporting. Can I ask you, if you haven't supported the ministry, consider supporting us? Let's move that to 2% because we can get so much more done and I'm grateful for that 1% because so much is being done right now. But we can together do more. Help us help more hurting couples like Josh and Katie. When we work together, we can be a lifeline for so many more families. Josh and Katie, thank you for being with us. This is good.
- [27:17]
Katie Walters
Thank you for having us. We're so grateful for your ministry and.
- [27:21]
John Fuller
Thank you for joining us as well. And you can learn more about our Friends of Focus on the Family Community when you call 800, the letter A and the word family or stop by the show notes for all the details. We hope you have a great weekend with your family and your church family as well. And then join us on Monday for the introduction to a brand new podcast that we're launching for pastors.
- [27:44]
Jim Daly
I think what my parents drilled into me, the same thing that I've tried to drill into my kids and that is that if they love Jesus and they love the church and they carry that into adulthood, then that might be the most impressive thing that I can ever put on a resume.
- [27:59]
John Fuller
You'll hear more about it next time on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back then as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
- [28:14]
Josh Walters
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