← Focus on the Family with Jim Daly
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- [00:01]
Os Guinness
You know the maxim think globally, act locally? That's a secular one. Our equivalent, I think, is to think and pray globally with vision for the entire world. Because the gospel is for the whole world, but to act locally and for each of us, that's the sphere of our calling. So none of us can save the world. We're just little finite people, but we're called to be faithful. Are we homemakers or teachers or lawyers or computer scientists or cab drivers or political leaders? If each of us is faithful in the whole of the spheres of our calling, the salt and light will be salty.
- [00:39]
Jim Daly
Well, that's a cultural commentator and a very biblical thinker, O.S. guinness, reflecting on the state of the Christian community and how you can have hope in God. And he's back with us again on today's Focus on the Family with Jim Dailey.
- [00:54]
John
You know, John Oz is a deep thinker and that's what I love because it makes me think. And I hope today as you listen as last time, it would do the same for you, that it would make you think about things that aren't just day to day thoughts. But what are those deep things in your heart, the way that you want to connect with God, to live out in faithful service before him your life? And that's what we're talking about. These are big things. Oz, let me welcome you formally back to the program.
- [01:22]
Os Guinness
Thank you, Jim. An enormous pleasure.
- [01:23]
John
I want to capture the story of your great, great, great grandfather because I think it's a. A great story, to be honest. There's a reason you have the last name Guinness and of course that's a very famous beer. And that was your great, great great grandfather, correct?
- [01:39]
Os Guinness
Indeed, yes. And he came to Christ through the teaching of John Wesley, the preaching of John Wesley in the Irish Revival. My own branch of the family is the only one that's kept the faith ever since. And what it goes back 200 years ago in Ireland's last duel. It's a story we have time to tell you briefly. Sure. A city councillor insulted Daniel o', Connell, the great Irish liberator. The only recourse was a duel. The city councillor was a crack shot. O' Connell was a duffer. And to everyone's amazement. I'm cutting the story short. Everyone's amazement. The city councillor, the crack shot missed and o' Connell hit him and killed him. And. And the man's widow was 22, with two young children, went to Scotland to think of taking her life. She was despairing and she saw a ploughboy whistling and singing Hymns and ashamed of thinking her taking her life with two kids left behind, she cross talked to him, came to faith, went back to Dublin and met and married my great, great grandfather, the son of Arthur Guinness, the brewer. But here's my point. Without those pistols, and I met the guy who owns them a few years ago, and I picked them up and I thought without one of those two pistols, my side of the family wouldn't be.
- [02:58]
John
That's amazing.
- [02:59]
Os Guinness
Here's the amazing thing. That woman having come to Christ every day, the journal shows she prayed for our family for 12 generations. And every one of them following her, with, I think, one, maybe two exceptions, they're all followers of Jesus. That's powerful. And so prayers intergenerationally. And that's something very simple that we can do today, really pray for the succeeding. I pray my son even hasn't got a girlfriend at the moment. I pray for his grandchildren. I must say, I can't go much beyond that in my envisaging it. But prayer for the generations is a key part of handing on, and I'm proud to say I have a tremendous heritage of faith in the gospel going back to Arthur Guinness, the brewer.
- [03:46]
John
That's a great story. We spoke last time about loving our enemies and having courage to boldly take a stand for Jesus in the culture by engaging with others. I want to ask you about one component of that which is very important to me, and this is something that. That's been on my heart for a long time. That is the character trait of humility. It's something that obviously Jesus possessed and then expressed to others. He was forceful and strong at the same time that he was humble. And it seems to me, within Christian leadership, that characteristic is wanting. Humility is one of those characteristics that seems hard to live by. And yet it's the very thing that could draw people into the dialogue, into the discussion, so that there can be a resetting of what is important. But it takes humility, doesn't it?
- [04:47]
Os Guinness
Indeed. I mean, you keep adding useful things. Persuasion, love, et cetera, et cetera. And humility is one of the key. Wilberforce is incredibly humble. And obviously humility is a wonderful Christian virtue. Each of us is finite. Each of us is fallen. So we should never think more highly of ourselves than we should do. And yet you look at America today, Our Lord, blessed are the poor in spirit. I remember a series of that in Washington. The preacher should be nameless, but I was appalled. He told us the Greek and the Hebrew and the biblical this, that, and the other. But he Never said it in the modern context. Here's a culture which to any foreign visitor like me, is obvious. Blessed are the number ones, number twos are nowhere. Blessed are the MVPs, blessed are the hall of Famous, blessed are the celebrities. It's all about that. And much of our Christian culture is too. Rather than the way of Jesus. He comes in on the donkey and so on.
- [05:44]
John
Well, the difficulty we have in this regard is to be humble in the arena is hard because we begin to misunderstand what courage is. We think courage is a zero sum game of winning. Being the mvp, being number one, what you just said there, but the Lord. And where you see those illustrations where God, you know, he's standing there in front of Pontius Pilate, he could have straightened that out, but he didn't. He didn't win in the way the world was expecting him to rise up and win. And many people were frustrated by that. They wanted him to overthrow Rome, these people that were lording it over the Jews. That's what the zealots were all about. They wanted someone to rise up and basically win the victory over Rome and get their land back. Sometimes I feel like we have a parallel strategy here in America. It's about winning the White House, it's about winning Congress. Those are important things. But that's not where culture changes. Culture changes in the heart.
- [06:48]
Os Guinness
Mm. Oh, exactly. I agree. And a lot of apologists go wrong, as if we're the great boxing hope. We gotta slay all comers and you gotta appear on television or at the university and do that. Whereas we are just the junior councils. The real prosecutor is the Holy Spirit doing the work that matters. And we have far too high a view of ourselves. So we have to admit we don't know all the answers.
- [07:13]
John
So let me ask you this. Many, many generations, if not every generation, thinks they're in the end times because teenagers don't behave the way they should. A friend of mine read newspaper columns or newspaper headlines from the 1930s. It sounded like they could have been written today. And it proves the point that we, in every generation, with the darkness of each generation, tend to overestimate the darkness and underestimate God's work in that generation. When you look at it, though, there will be a generation where we're over the tipping point. Culturally, many people feel we're in that spot today, that we're losing religious liberties, that we're on the downhill slide of power. Do we fight to get it back or do we humble ourselves and persuade gently to get it Back. It seems like the strategy is lost. We don't know what to do now. We don't. What do you recommend?
- [08:14]
Os Guinness
Well, there's a difference between the rise and decline of nations and the end times. And of course, as you said, there are many times previously. I mean, you look at the Dark Ages that I mentioned, historians say never have more people said the end of all things is at hand. It was truly dark. And this darkness today, take what we're seeing in the Middle east through the Islamic State. This is vile. So we have seen certainly in my lifetime. Even today, we are seeing evil. But that is there. And that's a difference even from the tipping point idea. I think we're approaching a tipping point. The west is in decline. The American Republic is in decline. You have to sustain freedom as the founders understood. And if you don't do it a certain way it goes. Freedom always goes. There are three main ways it goes. It goes through becoming permissiveness and license, or people who are free so love security that they have so much security, they stifle freedom. One nation under surveillance, or they so prize freedom. They'll do whatever it takes to defend freedom, including what contradicts freedom. Take Abu Ghraib. So all the classical historical ways in which freedom undermined you can see in America now. And I think there's no question we're approaching the point of no return. That's a different question. But that doesn't mean the end times. And of course, as you know, our Lord says even he didn't know. And he begins and ends talking about the end times, saying, we certainly don't know. So there are many things in particularly the constellation of events in the Middle east, extraordinary things, but we don't know. We've got to live every day as if he's coming back this afternoon, and yet every day as if it could be another thousand years.
- [10:07]
Jim Daly
So in light of your book Renaissance and the Power of the Gospel, however dark the times and thinking of what Jim just asked, do we accept the hard times that come, even if it's government imposed or it's from individuals that just really hate us for our faith, do we accept that? Do we fight? How do we respond to the lower levels, I might call it, of persecution.
- [10:34]
Os Guinness
We have to respond in a Christlike way. Sir William Wilberforce, you do the Lord's work in the Lord's way. He always loved his enemies. You probably know, one time one of his enemies died. He immediately saw the man's wife had a pension to live on. He was known for his love. Although he attacked slavery dramatically in his denunciations, the failure of much of the Christian right. They demonize the enemies. We must never demonize our enemies. We must do the Dan Cathay approach, reach out to them and so on. So we've got to do the Lord's work in the Lord's way. Now fight. Take apologetics. In the scriptures, military metaphors are always in the supernatural, the principalities and the powers. When we're dealing with people and arguments that are human, they're legal metaphors, witnessing truth and so on. So we've got to fight in quotes, in ways that are profoundly biblical and not make the mistakes of the church in the past.
- [11:37]
John
Talk about the scripture where Jesus is saying, you know what? The world's going to hate you. Be of good cheer. I've overcome the world.
- [11:44]
Os Guinness
Count it. All joy.
- [11:46]
John
It's an interesting dichotomy. I mean, he's recognizing that you're not going to be favorable to a lot of people. You're not going to be their best buddy. But be of good cheer, be joyful, because I've overcome the world. Sometimes it seems odds that we have a short perspective on what's happening. God's got the big wheel in his hand, not in our hands. And we can lose hope. Though I think in some ways not trusting that God is actually in control. In fact, as I've met with people who don't have a Christian worldview, one of the things, the common things that they will say to me is as a community, you guys seem fearful. And that's unfortunate.
- [12:27]
Os Guinness
Isn't it terrible? I mean, you know the most common refrain in scriptures, have no fear. But I think we need to ransack history. You can see false responses. One, you can see this in Germany in the 1930s, quietism, I'll just retreat and pray. Or another, the opposite extreme is a kind of hot headed activism. Take things in our own hands, whatever it takes now, and they don't work. And we've got to look at what does work. Now the thing we haven't mentioned today is prayer.
- [12:55]
John
Yes.
- [12:56]
Os Guinness
In other words, this is an urgent time for praying because only the Lord can do things we know we can't.
- [13:02]
Jim Daly
And you're talking a different kind of prayer than lord, help me find a good parking spot in this big shopping center.
- [13:08]
Os Guinness
And I pray that too.
- [13:11]
Jim Daly
What kind of prayer are you talking about? That really is going to change me and then change the culture around me, us.
- [13:17]
Os Guinness
But a prayer beginning with a trust in the sovereignty of the Lord, overwhelming things in Our globalized world. But the Lord's bigger than globalization. Or again, prayer in the sense of supernatural waging. You know, Nietzsche Talked in the 1880s of a war of spirits, and he understood where we were far better than most Christians. We won't combat secularism just by arguments. There's a spiritual dimension, principalities and powers behind much of the highest of this. And we've got to recognize it. And you can only wage that through supernatural prayer and this excellent stuff they say, Jack Hayford's books and so on. And we need to bring that in as basic and normal os.
- [14:04]
John
One of the things that I've observed, especially when you look at the early church again, is that idea of orthopraxy, the doing of the Word. And they seemed to convince the culture of the goodness of the Christian faith because the Christians were willing to do really hard work to take care of the sick, those that were dying in the plague. They put their lives at risk. They saved the babies who were thrown away, that were thrown into the river to die. They built hospitals, they built orphanages. They did these good deeds, as the scripture says. And lo and behold, people honored their Father in heaven. And again, this tension with generational tension, younger people tend to want to lift that up again. And I'm with that. I believe in that, too. It's a great tradition of the Christian church. But how does that go in concert with orthodoxy? So orthopraxy, the doing of the Word, and orthodoxy, the truth of the Word, and my impression of that is standing on the street corner, just speaking truth. If you isolate either of those, they seem not to work very well, but they work really well together.
- [15:18]
Os Guinness
My way of approaching it is our Lord didn't call us to certain beliefs. He called us to three things. One, to know and trust him, and through Him, His Father. So the heart of it is relational. But secondly, he called us to live his way. They were followers of the way. They were followers of Jesus. They lived his way. Now it's living a way that produces a culture. A culture is simply a way of life lived in common together. So if we all love our enemies together, if we all turn the cheek together, if we all forgive without limit together, the way of Jesus produces a Christian culture and so on. And we've got to get back to some of the biblical, the Hebrew, the Greek ways of saying this, and we've got to get back to that way of Jesus. The third thing he called us to, of course, is to share our faith with others. And often for evangelicals, that's the only one, the Great Commission.
- [16:14]
John
Do we sometimes just overcomplicate it? As believers, we're thinking we have to do too much rather than just live it and share it.
- [16:22]
Os Guinness
But speak it too, and speak it. No gap between the speaking and the living. So I agree with you. I love the fact again and again the pagans said, great is the God of the Christians because they could see it as the way of Jesus was lived out. You look at the best of our culture, I've got a chapter on that. The gifts of the gospel. Philanthropy, giving, caring, reforming the universities, the rise of modern science and the human rights. These are all the fruits of the gifts of the gospel, the lived out. And we've got to have the courage if we live out the gospel today. You know, it was actually Wilberforce who said, let a thousand flowers bloom. If every follower of Jesus lives it out with joy and completeness in the whole of their lives, that will be the Renaissance, a flowering again of the Christian faith in our culture.
- [17:13]
John
As you talk about Renaissance, is there a difference between living and hoping for a Renaissance versus a revival? Or are you saying the same thing?
- [17:23]
Os Guinness
Well, I say pick your word, but many of the other words have got a little stale. You know, they have certain amount of baggage. And certainly the Renaissance with a capital R does too. Part of it was classical, part of it was even pagan. But the word in itself, there were Renaissances before the Renaissance that were spiritual. Francis of Assisi was called a Renaissance. And of course, the real meaning of the term, it's a French word for new birth, so it goes back to John chapter three and being born again. So it's a wonderful word if we see it, possibly. But pick your word and use it with a freshness. We need renewal, we need revival, we need reformation, we need the whole lot. And the Lord's capable of giving it to us. And I like the word Renaissance for its freshness and that sense of a cultural flowering. That's what we need today. Justice, the arts, humanness, families, you name it.
- [18:18]
John
Oz, as you talk about Renaissance and the meaning of that, if you could paint that picture for us today, if things would change today, what does that look like? What would be happening if it were working?
- [18:33]
Os Guinness
Jim? One way of answering that would be even to think of my own lifetime. I came to Christ in 1960. Evangelicals had deep, rich, solid theology and. And wonderfully warm hearts, but nothing in the area of arts, very little in politics and in many of, say, the academic disciplines, next to nothing. But look what's happened. I Mean, when I went to Labrie, you had Hans Roeckmacher, Francis Schaeffer talking about the arts, and people flocked there. Now look at Christians in the visual arts, artists all over the world, painting and designing to the glory of the Lord. And the same in music and the same in other spheres. It's beginning to happen. So Even in the 50 years that I've followed our Lord, you can see an incredible flowering in area after area after area. Take, say, the Wedgwood circle and the way they're trying to seed the clouds and see film and all sorts of things flourish to the glory of God. All this is beginning to happen. Another way I would put it, often people. You talk about the big picture and people can be discouraged because it's. And I answer that by saying many of the generalizations are depressing. They're very challenging. But the exceptions are incredibly exciting. And of course, that's the gospel. The church is an exception to the way of the world. And the green shoots are coming through the concrete once again.
- [20:01]
John
Right through the concrete.
- [20:02]
Os Guinness
We mentioned Europe. I mean, to see Christian meetings in the Sorbonne at the heart of that university in Paris, packed, amazing. Or one of my earlier heroes, Michael Green, now in his mid-80s, great New Testament scholar, an irrepressible evangelist. He went to Poland recently for a week's mission in a University. There were 25 Christians, probably feeling rather small at the end of his week's mission, 250 new believers. And the little group of 25 was trying to integrate this huge influx of 250. And you get stories like that all over Europe. Something's happening.
- [20:42]
John
And what's so fascinating with that, the stories that come out of the Middle East, Muslims becoming Christians in Iran. I mean, many, many testimonies of that. What's fascinating, Oz, is how God works at that individual level. Sometimes we can be distracted by the higher level, can't we? Because we don't know what God is doing at the individual heart level.
- [21:02]
Os Guinness
That's right. We can run away in each direction, being overwhelmed and discouraged, or sometimes looking at the others and taking a false comfort. For instance, the gospel is exploding in the global South. If it weren't for the African brothers and sisters, the Church of England would be in profound trouble. And look what's happening in Asia. Where I happened to be born, is the epicenter of the fastest growth of the church in 2,000 years. But if we go too far that way, I have to add there's a sting in the tail. Most of the global south is pre modern we have caved in to the seductions of modernity. So their challenge is coming, right? So we've got to be as realistic as we can. Always looking the challenges in the wide of the eye, but always coming away with hope because of the gospel.
- [21:51]
John
So, Oz, you know, as we wrap up, I'm the mom or dad, I'm hearing you talk like this. You're from Oxford and you've got such a grasp on what's happening. How do I communicate this to my 14 year old? How do I walk with him and talk with him about these big issues, these big ideas?
- [22:13]
Os Guinness
Well, let me mention two very simple things that used to be at the core of the strongest evangelicalism in the past. One was family worship. Beginning the family praying together. As the Catholics say, pray together, stay together. The other, though, often ignored the family dining table. When I came to the US the first time in 68, the biggest shock to me as a European, I didn't meet a single American family that had supper together. You had sports practice, violin lessons. The family dining table was a pit stop, like a Grand Prix. Get your food off, you go to the next thing. Well, in Europe, and you can see traditionally, the family dining table is where the cohesion starts. You hear stories, my family dining table, I know my great, great grandfather and my grandfather and so on, as if they were living people, because I heard those stories again and again and again. The family dining table, we've got a. It's a very, very simple thing. Recover family worship and recover family cohesion through eating together today in Europe.
- [23:20]
John
How is that with the meal in the evening? Are people together in Europe?
- [23:26]
Os Guinness
Well, no, the trouble is the problem isn't because America's America. The problem is America's modern. And the faster Europe goes and the more modern it gets. You have the same dilemmas there.
- [23:36]
John
Right?
- [23:37]
Os Guinness
And we've got to stand against the tide, but we've got to be conscious of the things that undo us to resist.
- [23:43]
John
You have to recognize, Oz, these past couple of days, it's been so good to talk with you. I think you're laying out the framework and in your book Renaissance, you definitely are providing all of us in the Christian community the tools to think differently, think more deeply about our faith and what it means to be a Christian. I really appreciate that encouragement coming from you. I'm not offended by it at all. Don't live a thin Christian life, that's what you're saying. Be robust in your faith, know what you believe, share it, speak it, live it so that it has the authenticity that draws people to our Lord. Is that a good way to summarize?
- [24:27]
Os Guinness
Absolutely. And at the end of the day, still be people of hope.
- [24:30]
John
That's exactly right.
- [24:31]
Os Guinness
Because we should have no fear. Our Lord is greater than all. He can be trusted in all situations. Have faith in him. Have no fear.
- [24:42]
John
Os Guinness, author of the book the Power of the Gospel, however dark the times. Thanks for being with us.
- [24:49]
Os Guinness
My pleasure.
- [24:51]
Jim Daly
We've been offered so much hope from Dr. Os Guinness during the past couple of days and I hope you've taken some notes and really absorbed what he's talking about as you seek to grow further in Christ. And I hope you'll read his book to help you in your faith journey.
- [25:06]
John
Yeah, that's good, John. We want to encourage people to request that book and support Focus on the Family. You may not know this, but more than three quarters of a million people in the past year alone have been inspired by Focus on the Family to promote biblical pro family values in the culture through civic engagement. That's a lot of people. And I want to thank you for partnering with us financially to help make that possible, that kind of impact in your community and in your own home. And we want to send you this copy of Os Guinness book as our way of saying thank you for a gift of any amount. But the bigger goal here is to help families thrive in Christ and we can do that together if you can support us with a monthly pledge. That's how Gene and I support Focus on the Family. Contact us today to set that up. And if you can only make a one time gift, that's good too because thousands of people doing that helps us continue to do the ministry well.
- [26:04]
Jim Daly
Donate either a one time gift or as a friend of the family through a monthly pledge and request your copy of Renaissance when you call 800, the letter A in the word Family 800-232-6459 or check the show notes for the links. On A related note, Dr. Os Guinness is one of the hosts of our new documentary film called Truth rising that premieres September 5th. And there's so much excitement here at Focus as we partner with the Colson center on this new project which we hope is going to inspire a cultural movement for Christ way beyond September 5th. There are all sorts of resources including including a free four part study you can access by signing up. It covers truth, hope, identity and calling and you can learn more by stopping by our website. Well, thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Plan to join us next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
- [27:14]
Focus on the Family
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