← Focus on the Family with Jim Daly
Focus on the Family with Jim Daly
Understanding Sexuality and Intimacy from a Christian Perspective (Part 2 of 2)
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Your marriage can be healed. A Hope Restored Marriage Intensive from Focus on the Family can transform you and your spouse's relationship in just a few days.
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We'll go to this thing, but this is it.
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If this doesn't work, we're done.
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Than we ever had before and that I ever even dreamed of in the marriage. Discover more@hoperestored.com that's hoperestored.com.
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Welcome to another edition of FOCUS on the FAMILY with Jim Daley. As we return to a very serious topic impacting married couples of all ages and single adults, too, and even families. We're all affected by how we view our identity and our desires for intimacy and whether or not we're following God's design. For those as you might suspect, this conversation isn't suitable for younger listeners, we'll recommend you have them occupied elsewhere. Your host is Focus president and author Jim Daly, and I'm John Fuller.
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John, last time we started a powerful conversation with Dr. Julie Slattery, one of our former colleagues here at Focus on the Family, and she has been laser focused on human sexuality when she was here at Focus and then for the last 14, 15 years that she's been leading her own ministry in this area. Obviously, the world's perceptions and practices of sex are a mess today, and we see it in every way. And even Christians are lacking a clear understanding of God's purposes and design for our sexuality. But Julie has done great research and studied the topic for literally decades, and it always feels like a reunion. When she comes back to visit, be part of the broadcast. If you missed the conversation last time, get our Focus on the Family app. It's the easiest way to do it. And you have access to all the broadcast and audio content, including podcasts. And you can pick up our conversation from last time or you can find the program at our website or on YouTube. But either way, it's important to get that great content from last time, right?
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And we are really centering the conversations around Julie's book called Surrendered Sexuality, How Knowing Jesus Changes Everything. And stop by our website to get a copy of the book and to learn more about Julie's ministry and her other books as well. You'll find the links in the show notes.
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A
Julie, welcome back.
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B
So good to be with you guys.
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Thanks for having me pick up the conversation where we left off. You know, let's recap the primary theme of your book, which is this idea of surrender and what you mean by surrendered sexuality, especially for those that maybe haven't caught day one.
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Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So what I found is that most of us as Christians, we tend to do one of three things with our sexuality. We either compartmentalize it, which is God doesn't really care about that area. I don't want to think about it. We compromise and we just say, in this area of life, I'm going to just live the way I want to and kind of ignore what the scripture says, or we try to control, and it's about trying to stop behaviors we know are wrong. And actually, what we see in the scripture is that God doesn't call us to do any of those things. He calls us literally to bring ourselves to him as a living sacrifice, as an offering, and say, God, I belong to you. All my messes belong to you, and you are the only one who can make me whole. And that is a discipleship process. And it's one that I think, in general, we accept in the church, but we don't always apply it to sexuality. That following God with our sexuality and is a complex journey of what it looks like to surrender all of who I am to him.
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Yeah. Sexual identity. This is one that has captivated the culture. And, you know, you see it in LGBTQ and all the pronoun thing. And, you know, people are trying to place themselves in that space of, this is my identity. This is who I am. Someone pointed out to me a while back, gnosticism. This isn't new. Gnosticism. 2000 years ago, when Jesus was walking the earth, the Gnostics believed that you weren't captivated by your gender, that you could rise spiritually or spirit being, and you could have fluidity between your gender. I mean, this goes back to the Roman Empire. So nothing new under the sun. It's just a re emphasis that the culture has chosen to rise up once again and use this as the most important thing about who you are. So how is that approach of identity wrong?
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B
Yeah, well, some of it is. Why do we think that, you know, like, what does it mean to be me? How do I define who I am? And how do you answer that question historically? From a Christian framework and a biblical framework, we answer that question by looking at our Creator. Who does he say that I am, and what does it mean to be made in his image? And I define myself based on what he speaks. The truth of what he speaks and the human condition is that we will always doubt what he says about us. All of us do. I mean, I think the greatest work of discipleship is actually identity work, because all of us at some level, believe I am what I do. I am what people think of me. I am what I feel. And to follow Christ means that we have to put to death all those other identities so that we can fully live in who he says that we are. So that's all background to say, why is this LGBT and sexual identity and gender identity thing taking off? Because we have discounted that first answer, that there is an objective truth about who I am, and I do have a gender that was given to me by God. And if I want to understand myself, I have to know him and I have to learn from Him. Now, if you take that away, what's left? It's, well, you got to figure it out. Like, you have to figure out who you are. And so you have to understand that it's not just the culture pushing this. It's in the absence of God and in the absence of believing that there's objective truth, we are going to fill in that gap with something. And I think the gender identity and sexual identity is just one piece of it. We see it. Everybody's just desperate to figure out who they are and to be free from anything that keeps them from their authentic self. And so it's a seeking that, as you're mentioning, throughout all humanity, we will go through until we find that we really can rest in who God is and who he says we are.
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You know, it's so amazing with all of this how there's kind of this spiritual gravitational force that you cannot escape. You can try what they tried 2,000 years ago, but you can't escape God's principles. God has designed it. He's outlined it. It is what is true, and everything else is a lie. And we still just keep going at it. We can't wise up to what is true. And that's Christ. I love that scriptural reference that you give in the book 2 Corinthians 5:17 to put kind of the capstone on this. If anyone is in Christ, he's a new creat. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come. And that means everything.
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Yeah, right.
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Yeah.
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I mean, I tell people that's the most important Bible verse about your sexuality, because becoming a new creation means that I now have the power through Christ to change my behaviors and my affections and my desires. But if I'm not made new in myself, then it's all just human effort.
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You know, Charlie Kirk, of course, was assassinated a while back, But I was flipping through YouTube, watching his clips, and he had such a powerful exchange with a 20 year old woman. You know, this is some campus, I don't remember the campus. And she, with great courage, got up there and said, you know, I felt like I was born in the wrong body since I was in third grade. I'm now considering whether I should do chemical treatment to try to correct that error. What would you say? And his answer was so good. He said, first of all, I want to say some things to you that I doubt other people will tell you. And it's this. Your issue is not in your body, it's in your head. And you need to get help. People that love you and care about you. Get to a caring Christian counselor who can help you not be at war with your body, but for you to embrace what God has given you. So before you put chemicals into your body, think about getting help for your mind. I thought, wow, what a statement, right? Yeah.
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Boy, he had such a powerful way of articulating truth in a hostile environment. Yeah. And doing it. And I think this is so key, doing it with compassion. Because that young woman who you're referencing and so many others in our culture, they're not the enemy, you know, they're not against us. They're lost, just like we're lost without Christ. And they're trying to find fulfillment and happiness. And this is what the enemy tells them, is that you will find the greatest fulfillment by following your feelings and your desires. And they're caught in the captivity of those lies, the same way we have been and can be without Christ. And so I think it's important to recognize that this is not just a culture clash. It is literally a spiritual battle where in the absence of Christ, Satan will fill in that space. And his lies are very captivating. And it is only through the power of Christ that we can see truth and embrace what is true.
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I think it's so difficult because we tend to, in some way, the Christian community, and I think it's almost like a magnetic pull. We tend to feel like our lives are together more than their lives. And we do that pharisaical thing and we start looking down on the other person. And man, Jesus was all over that, wasn't he? Have you found some ways, especially as a psychologist, as a Christian, to maintain that tenderness for people who are, as you said, not the enemy? They're POWs, spiritually speaking. How do you maintain that tenderness for them? That they're not wicked, but God has died for them like he's died for us.
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Yeah, yeah. I think one thing is we gotta continue to ingest the life of Christ. You know, like, just study the Gospels and spend time with Jesus. And I've been doing a slow, slow walk through the book of John. I've gone through that book so many times. But if you ever notice, the only people he gets mad at are the Pharisees who are putting rules on people and demanding, you know, you do this and that and judging them and not seeing their own unrighteousness and their own need. He never gets mad at the tax collector or the prostitute or the woman caught in adultery. He meets him with compassion. And that convicts me every time because I'm like, if Jesus were here, who would he be speaking some harsh words to?
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Well, and so often they'll reference the overturning of the money changers tables, but that was actually the priesthood. Yeah, he was going after the Levites.
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He would be in the church lobby overturning whatever we're trying to make a profit on there, you know. So I think spending time in the life of Christ, learning from him, but then I also think it's having a commitment to personal honesty and humility. And boy, if I ever get to that place, and sometimes I do, I will pray this prayer. God, would you show me my sin? And there are mornings when I pray that, and I don't get to 10am before I'm like, oh, Lord, have mercy, I've seen enough. And when God shows me all the stuff inside of me that nobody else sees, which is just as disgusting as a thing that people could see, it's so humbling that I can't go a moment without him. My thoughts are wrong, my heart is wrong. It's only him that makes me righteous. And he's so gracious with me. And so I think when we return to that again and again, it gives us compassion because I'm right there with you, Julie.
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Moving on. In the content of the book, you describe the dangers of feeling discontented in terms of romantic relationships. And you refer to your own experience. Now, this is where the authors right out there exposed for all to see. So what was that experience? This would be more in a Christian context because you were raised in a Christian family, right. To do the right things. So what was that discontentment like?
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Yeah, so I wrote a little bit about what it was like to be single and to be in college and to see friends of mine going on dates. And it's like, oh, it's Saturday night and I don't have a date, I don't have a boyfriend. Like, what's wrong with me? And if only I could get married. If only I could have somebody that loves me like that and never be lonely on a Saturday night. And then fast forward, I was reflecting on maybe 10 years later, married a couple kids, you know, another Saturday night, being like, everybody wants something from me and I'm so exhausted. My house is full, but nobody really sees me. You know, if only I could have some time to myself. And I was just sort of, like, thinking about how I wasn't content in either situation.
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The pendulum of discontent.
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And I think, you know, in this work of sexuality, I talked to single Christians, I talked to married Christians, divorced Christian, widow Christians, and most of them wish they were in a different situation. The singles and divorced, widowed are like, yeah, I just. I just wish I could find that person. I wish I could be married. I wish I wasn't alone. I wish I could have sex, whatever it is. And then you talk to the married woman or man, and they're like, yeah, this marriage is a lot of work, and I'm not really fulfilled. And I wish this. And. And that's, again, the human condition of we're always looking for satisfaction and fulfillment and even good gifts that can't satisfy us. And, you know, Paul, I love that Paul wrote to the Philippians, I have learned the secret of being content in all situations. And I love that, first of all, he says it's a secret that not many people know it. But second of all, that he had to learn it, because I don't think any of us, naturally, even as believers, know how to be content in any situation, know how to be content in any marital status, know how to be content in difficult relationships. And what Paul's secret is, is he says, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. And earlier in the book, Paul of Philippians, Paul is writing about how, like, nothing compares to knowing Christ. I want to know him. And that's why the subtitle of this book is How Knowing Jesus Changes Everything. Yeah, a lot of our sexual struggles, a lot of our marriage struggles are that we're living with a secret phrase in our mind of if only, if only I had married that other person. If only I were single, if only I were married, then my life would be okay. And what Paul is teaching us there is that the if only has to be. If only I knew Christ like he wants me to know him, if only I was abiding in Him, I could find contentment in every situation.
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I say this tongue in cheek, but that reminds me of the great theologian Irma Bombeck. Who once said, the grass isn't greener on the other side. It's greener where you water it. Isn't that a great statement?
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It is.
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I love that statement because it's so true. Plant yourself in water and if it's your marriage or your singleness or whatever it might be, it's be content in all things. Right. It's kind of that same attitude. Julie, I was intrigued by your reference in the Old Testament about the prophet Habakkuk. There's many ways you could say that, but what can Habakkuk, I'll say it that way this time, teach us about having contentment even when our longings for intimacy or connection haven't been fulfilled.
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Yeah. This is something that I learned from my friend and mentor, Linda Dillo. She wrote about this in one of her books. And Habakkuk has been one of her heroes in the scripture. But she writes and teaches about how Habakkuk, who is in a situation of great turmoil in his country, it was just when the Babylonians were going to be taking over Israel and he's really anxious about this, which we all would be, and he's crying out to the Lord and he says, even if, you know, even if the worst happens, even if you don't save us from this capture, even if there's no more grapes on the vine, I will still exalt in the Lord. And it's about really changing our if onlys to even ifs. For the single Christian who's really struggling, loneliness is real. For the divorced Christian who's dealing with betrayal, deep wounds like those are real. For the married Christian who doesn't feel seen or fulfilled in marriage, like those are real longings. And it's not to rose colored glasses this, but to get to the place where we have such an intimacy with God that we can say, even if this doesn't change, I know, God, that you are enough and I know that you will sustain me. That is what Paul is calling us to. And what Jesus ultimately wants to give us is not answer our prayer for the person who's going to solve our problem, but that we would know in such a way that even if this teenager doesn't change, even if this husband doesn't change, or even if I stay single for the next 10 years, I don't know how I'm going to make it through. But God, I do know that you're going to be enough.
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So what that says is trust and reliance upon the Lord for your circumstances.
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Right. But here's the Thing, Jim, we can't trust somebody we don't know. And there are a lot of Christians who are trying to trust a God they don't know.
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Wow, that is so true.
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And so until we go deep in intimacy with him, we're not going to trust him. And that's why Paul says, really, the secret that he found was knowing Christ in such a way that everything else felt like rubbish. Right.
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Whether it's the palace or the pauper's.
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Cross or his status as a Pharisee or whatever it was he said, all of it now I consider rubbish in comparison with knowing Christ, Jesus my Lord. And, you know, it's all there in the scripture. But the secret, really, of all these sexual struggles is really we have to know Jesus in such a way that he does change everything for us.
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Yeah. And when you do that, your life changes.
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It does.
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I mean, that's what's amazing. I gotta get a twofer as we begin to circle the end of the program. And that twofer for me is we certainly can make an idol out of marriage. I mean, we're focused on the family. The very term sounds like we're making an idol out of family, but we are a family ministry, so we're gonna concentrate on marriage and parenting and address single issues when we can, et cetera. But really, both. Both marriage and singleness can become idols.
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Right.
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And, you know, right now, I think we have more of an issue with an idol of singleness, whether that's because of fear or whatever. But describe idols within the context of relationship, marriage, single, all of it.
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Yeah. Tim Keller did such a great job in this with his book Counterfeit Gods, and he really has influenced my thinking on this a lot. But an idol, and he says this, like, idols are usually not bad things. They're actually good things. They're good things, good gifts that we begin to rely on as our very survival. And so marriage is a great thing. You know, romance is a great thing. Sex is a great thing. Like, these are all good gifts that God has created, but he didn't create them to be our salvation. And this is when we start getting into that phrase, if only. Like, if only I had this relationship. If only. You know, some men will feel like, if only my wife were more interested in sex, everything would be okay. And so an idol is something that you feel like you can't survive without. And so, yes, that can be singleness. I need my independence. I want to be able to travel, and I don't want to be accountable to anybody. But also can Be marriage, where, you know, my whole goal in life is to have a great marriage and have a great family. God never tells us to have that goal. He has us. He tells us to have the goal of loving him and loving others. And so that means that if you're married, you're going to work on loving your spouse and raising your children in the wisdom of Christ. But sometimes I know I've done this in my life. We have the wrong goals. God never called me to have a great marriage. He called me to be a faithful wife and to leave the results in his hands and to give him glory. And so I think it's putting good things and good gifts in the light of, thank you, Lord, for this. I will steward it well. But it is not what I'm living for.
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A
And that theme, I want to punch that again because it's so critical that the idea that surrendered sexuality is surrendering to love. So I want you just to take a moment and expand on that concept because that is your landing place. That's what the book's about.
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Yeah. So the only way that I can really surrender my sexuality is to really and truly surrender to the love of Christ. Nothing else changes us. Yeah, nothing else does. And so when we talk about this being a journey, it is a journey of like, as you mentioned, I grew up in a Christian home. The very first thing I learned as a Christian as a little girl, Jesus loves you. It's the first thing you learn as a believer. But I think it's also the last thing I'll learn, like on my deathbed. And when I see Christ face to face, I think I'm going to be so overwhelmed by how little I understood of his love. And the pinnacle, the goal of this Christian walk is that we would know the love of Christ and love him and love others. And I think as a younger Christian, I thought, oh, I got love. Like I got that one worked out. Let's work on some of the better things. But it's ultimately, do I know the love of Christ? And is the Holy Spirit loving through me? And that's it.
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Yeah. This has been outstanding, Julie, and you've done such a great job. Surrendered sexuality how Knowing Jesus changes everything. And let me just say again, we mentioned this, but it shows up in the data. People that describe themselves as convictional Christian, reading the word, praying regularly, going to church regularly. It's not an everything. It's not a rules based thing. It's just a depiction of your practices. And that tends to demonstrate that you're trying, you're on the journey, you're stumbling, but you're making progress. And God has certainly called you to apply this to human sexuality and what a messy space that is. So God bless you for getting in there and talking to us about this topic and writing about it and giving your life to it. Really, that's what you've been doing for decades now. So thank you for that, Julie, and thanks for being with us.
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Yeah, thanks so much for having me. It's a joy.
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And as we often do, be part of the ministry, make a monthly pledge of any amount to focus on the family. And we will thank you by sending you a copy of Julie's book. Here's why your ongoing support is so helpful. A longtime listener named Kim discovered her husband had a pornography addiction and she was devastated. Understandably, she considered divorce. But by God's grace and with help from counselors on our website, Kim and her husband are still together. And that puts a smile on my face. They fought through it. Kim said. Thanks to your resources, encouragement and biblical teaching, our marriage is growing stronger every day. And that is awesome. That's what it's about. It's not confronting problems, it's how to overcome those problems in Christ. It's only through the generosity of friends like you that we're able to have a long term impact on someone like Kim and her marriage and so many others like her. So your monthly pledge goes a long way in keeping this ministry going. So can we count on you to be a monthly supporter or to provide a one time gift to help this ministry impact more people like Kim?
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Yeah. Either way, monthly or one time gift. Donate today. When you call 800, the letter A in the Word family or click the link in the show notes. And when you get in touch, please remember that we have caring Christian counselors here who would be pleased to give you a call back and to talk through what's going on and listen well. They'll pray with you. They'll perhaps direct you to some resources and if you need, they can connect you with someone in your area where you can have an ongoing counseling relationship. Again, our number, 800, the letter A in the Word family. And thanks for joining us today for FOCUS on the FAMILY with Jim Daly, I'm John Fuller inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
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Your church comes to you each week to fill their cup, but when the crowd leaves, who's filling yours? That's exactly what I'm here to do with my new podcast from Focus on the family. It's called Pastor to Pastor with Dave Stone. I'm so excited to help you navigate the unique challenges that pastors face in their ministry journey, both personally and professionally. So I invite you to listen and subscribe to Pastor to Pastor wherever you get your podcasts.