← Focus on the Family with Jim Daly
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- [00:04]
Dr. Norm Wright
I've lost both of my children. My son died 29 years ago. I still get hit a couple times a year and I get ambushed and I'll be in a store and something will trigger me off and I'll begin to cry. I never apologize for my tears because you never apologize for something that is a gift from God.
- [00:27]
Jim Daly
Well, that comment comes from the late Dr. Norm Wright describing how unexpected trauma can have a powerful long term effect on our lives. How do you respond in a crisis? Do you run from it or do you become angry at God? Can you learn how to overcome it? Well, those are questions we're going to be exploring today on FOCUS on the FAMILY with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller.
- [00:50]
John Fuller
John, I think it's human to not think about tragedy. It's not where we want to go. And yet suffering and trau are part of this life. It's even uncomfortable for us to talk about those struggles. We've got to be in a quiet place with a trusted friend to open up and talk about traumatic things. And the fact is none of us are exempt. Nobody's got an A. Now you may be in a place where your life has been pretty good. Maybe you made it through school, got a great job, got married and things are moving along. But it's inevitable that difficult days will come into our lives, like the death of a loved one, losing a job or facing a financial crisis. It could be any number of things. Jesus said it this way in John 16:33, in the world you will have tribulation. But here's the good news. Take heart. I have overcome the world. And that's our message today. There is a path to recovery, even when you're right in the middle of grief and pain and you wonder if life will ever get back to normal.
- [01:57]
Jim Daly
And we've got a great recording for you from a few years ago with Dr. Norm Wright, who was a longtime friend and frequent guest on this show. He was a marriage and family therapist for more than 30 years and he got involved in trauma care later on in his career. Now, Norm was 80 years old when he recorded the following interview, and it was based on a book he wrote called When It Feels like the sky is how to Find Hope in an Uncertain World. Stop by our website to get your copy. Here's how you began the conversation Now, Jim with Dr. Wright on today's episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
- [02:35]
You have such a track record in counseling, helping people. Marriage is just one thing and that's a wonderful thing to fight for every Day. That's what we do here at Focus on the Family. But also that grief counseling, that trauma counseling. I've never really heard of the word traumatologist. And why don't we start there to explain to the listeners what does a day look like for a traumatologist?
- [03:01]
Dr. Norm Wright
Well, the word trauma has to do with wounding. And traumatology is the study of wounds caused by either violence or accidents. And I've been involved in doing this, I just realized almost 30, 35 years now. And you ask, what is a day like? I never know what it's like when I begin because I do a lot of work over the phone, a lot of training over the phone. And I'll get people who call and they apologize for calling. And I say, never apologize, because it took a lot of courage on your part to call somebody and talk about this, Tell me your story. And that's what I began with, because everybody has a story. The problem is many times we tell the story to ourselves again and again and again. But it's better if we can tell. Tell the story to some individual who can just listen. People ask me, how do you know what to say, Norm? And I tell them, I don't know what to say until I hear the story. And it might take two minutes, it might take 32 minutes, but once they're able to unload, that's the beginning of healing.
- [04:15]
Jim Daly
Yeah. And, you know, in many ways, it's so comforting to hear a person who has 35 years of experience doing this, that you don't always know what to do. For those of us that might have a neighbor who comes to us, we may not know what to do either, or what to say. You know, so often, Norman, I think this isn't where I plan to start, but I'll just trust that this is the Lord's leading. So often we can say the wrong things to an individual that's gone through some difficulty right from the start here. For us as believers in Christ, what are things to say and things to not say that are kind of 101 grief counseling?
- [04:52]
Dr. Norm Wright
One of the best things to do is to be honest and say, I wish I knew what to say to help you, but I don't. And people appreciate your honesty. They appreciate you doing that. And the best thing is listen and reflect. Don't try to fix. They don't need to be fixed. They're not broken. They just need somebody that can walk with them. And you made reference there to something that triggered it off. I remember one day I was listening to the radio And I was listening to Jack Hayford and he asked the question, who's the spiritual leader on your block? And I thought, well, that's a strange question, but okay, I'll go with it. So I thought about the block where I lived and I went up one side of Snowden and I said, there's no spiritual leader there. And so I came down the other side and I came to this house, 2051 Snowden. I know who lives there. That's me.
- [05:44]
Jim Daly
It's good you could remember that.
- [05:46]
Dr. Norm Wright
But the question is really important. Who is the spiritual leader on your block? Because that is the greatest time, the greatest opportunity to have people respond to the gospel is when you come alongside and say, I heard that something happened and I wondered if I could bring this over and I've got a couple of little books here that maybe I could leave with you and maybe that would help you. And so I ask people, who's your spiritual leader on your block? But who's the spiritual leader where you work and where you go to school?
- [06:16]
Jim Daly
That is a great question, a great place to start.
- [06:18]
John Fuller
Now, you've titled this book When It.
- [06:20]
Jim Daly
Feels like the sky is how to Find Hope in an Uncertain World.
- [06:25]
John Fuller
And you open with a story about.
- [06:26]
Jim Daly
A terrorist attack in 1985, something you got involved with. What happened?
- [06:31]
Dr. Norm Wright
Well, it's hard to imagine that one of the first terrorist attacks happened about 100 yards from the front door of my counseling center.
- [06:40]
Jim Daly
And was that in Southern California?
- [06:41]
Dr. Norm Wright
That was in Southern California, in Santa Ana. And the director and founder of the Arab American Anti Discrimination League had an office next door. And on this particular day it was different because usually he brought his wife and his 10 year old daughter with him. They did not come with him that day. So he went into the office and there was a package there. He opened it up and it blew up. It killed him, it injured many others, it shattered windows and everything. And when I heard about this, it didn't register where it was. And that night when the newscast came on, I'm looking at the newscast and I'm looking at this building where the bomb went off, but I'm looking beyond it at the front door of my counseling center.
- [07:26]
Jim Daly
And you weren't there that day?
- [07:28]
Dr. Norm Wright
No. Oh my goodness, I wasn't there. An office worker was there and she called and said they asked us to leave because of an explosion and we still didn't know what blew up. And then we found out what it was and it changed the life of so many individuals. And who would imagine that a terrorist attack happened near where I worked. And since then I've been to one event after another, from 911 to Katrina to the shootings in Colorado Springs schools. One of the chapters in this book is the story of us coming up here and ministering and it's still going on. And the shuttle that was a private venture that crashed, I worked with that for about a week out in the.
- [08:17]
Jim Daly
Desert of South California, out in the.
- [08:18]
Dr. Norm Wright
Desert in Southern California. And then all the other events that have occurred. And when I go in there, I know I'm going to hear the unthinkable. I'm going to hear people's lives just shattered. And my calling there is basically to be there and to listen and then to help normalize. Because we live in a culture that does not teach about loss or grief until it happens to us. One of the worst times that it could ever try to deal with it is when it's just happening. But if churches, if schools could spend some time teaching people about loss, about grief, and they realize that what I'm going through, it's normal. I am not odd. I am not going crazy.
- [09:03]
Jim Daly
And it's one of the reasons we wanted to do this program is to provide a tool to someone who is struggling, or if you know somebody who is struggling, this is the kind of program to put in their hands and the resource of Norm's book. Norm, let me ask you though, with all the, you know, thousands of hours of help and counseling that you've provided, what are the reactions of people who go through trauma? You know, I've been through a couple of things. Airplane, a small aircraft that crashed when I was 14, right outside my window across the street. And I ran over. This was in the high desert of Southern California. And I called 911. I ran over to the plane. I was able to help get to 20 something young men out. I thought they were the only two in the plane, but there were two men that were decapitated, actually in the front, their dads. One was a neurosurgeon from Fallbrook, California. And I remember just kicking into gear and trying to help. And there was another older man that came and I was taking the young men to the curb across the street to get them away from the accident. And the plane exploded and burned this other man. And the point I'm making there is not. I was just at that place at that time and I needed to.
- [10:15]
Dr. Norm Wright
You were functional, though.
- [10:16]
Jim Daly
I was reacting.
- [10:17]
Dr. Norm Wright
You were able to do something. Many individuals are paralyzed by their fear. They can't move. They don't know what to say, they don't know what to do and what.
- [10:26]
Jim Daly
Is going on there with that person or both people. Why does one person react one way and other people react differently?
- [10:31]
Dr. Norm Wright
There's so many different factors that enter in, but what happens is that our brain has been shattered. Because when there's a trauma, it affects the brain. And you don't think clearly, you don't function well, you don't know what to do. And you need somebody to come alongside of you and listen to you and work with you and help you get the resources that you need. At this particular time. There is hope, there is recovery, but we don't believe it at that point. I work with a group on Wednesday nights of parents who have lost children, and they are numb, they are devastated. And we hear the same thing week after week, month after month, and sometimes year after year, Right? And I am conducting that group because I've lost both of my children. And nobody understands unless you have been there, unless you have walked through that. And so that's why I'm there. And I hurt sometimes. Sometimes I go out in tears, but that's all right.
- [11:34]
Jim Daly
I can only imagine, especially experiencing that in that context. And there are people listening that are going through something or they have gone through something. And one of the things I gleaned from reading your book, Norm, is to have empathy for those people. I can be in even the reaction I just gave you in that example, I'm kind of the guy that says, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, let's go. And I can lack patience with a person who's struggling to find that equilibrium that you're describing. For us that want to act and want to put it behind us, compartmentalize it, let's go. This is life. Thank the Lord and count on him. And don't look at the world for your joy or circumstances. You see what personality I'm driving at, but how do I slow down and know that this person can't react the same way? And I've got to be mindful of that so I don't hurt them.
- [12:32]
Dr. Norm Wright
You take some deep breaths, and you learn to relax at that time. And if you have one phrase that would make a difference is to come alongside and say, tell me what happened. Tell me your story. Everybody has a story, but they've got to tell it. And one of the things I use so much with individuals is hand write out your experience. My first three trips back from 9 11, I got in the back of the airplane and I sat there for three hours and wrote the story of what I had been through, what I had seen, what I had felt, and I just had to get it out. Because if you don't get it out, it gets a hold in your brain and you're not going to be functional at all.
- [13:14]
Jim Daly
And in that regard, some people may not find it easy to write, but verbalizing it, you also encourage people to talk about your story. I would think it's a similar effect.
- [13:25]
Dr. Norm Wright
It's similar. It's ideal when you hand write it out because that way you're getting the energy out as well. And so, yes, write it out, talk it out, find somebody who you think is safe. When I have somebody that comes in and they're in grief, I say, who are the people in your life that you want to share this with? And we identify them. And then I go one step further. Who are the people you don't want around at all? And we talk about how to distance yourself from those individuals.
- [13:54]
Jim Daly
And there are people hearing this going, I know that list.
- [13:56]
Dr. Norm Wright
I know who I would want.
- [13:58]
Jim Daly
Yeah, exactly. My type would be on that list. Don't get it around him.
- [14:03]
This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and we're featuring a conversation with the late Dr. Norm Wright. Dr. Wright was a certified traumatologist who wrote a landmark book called When It Feels like the sky is how to Find Hope in an Uncertain World. We'd recommend this book, of course, and you can get a copy by calling 800-THE LETTER A in the word FAMILY, 800-232-6459 or check the show notes for details. And now more from our conversation with Dr. Wright on today's episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
- [14:39]
Norm, in your book, you mention an intriguing statement. You say we become superheroes with learning disabilities. What did you mean by that?
- [14:51]
Dr. Norm Wright
Sometimes I have to ask myself, what did I mean by that?
- [14:53]
Jim Daly
It's a catchy phrase.
- [14:55]
It is.
- [14:56]
Dr. Norm Wright
I wonder what I meant by that. No, what it is, is that we can function in the midst of all of this to a certain level, and then we don't know where to go with it. We don't know what to say. We don't know how to find the help that we are looking for. I've worked with individuals who are like yourself. You were a superhero at that time when you pulled people out of that airplane, but you probably didn't remember a whole lot. You probably had to debrief yourself later on. And when you experience a trauma of any kind, don't be surprised that it comes Back months later, years later. I've lost both of my children. My son died 29 years ago. I still get hit a couple times a year and I get ambushed and I'll be in a store and something will trigger me off and I'll begin to cry. I never apologize for my tears because you never apologize for something that is a gift from God. And so I know I needed that. I needed to get that out. I wish it wasn't in front of all these strangers, but that's okay. They can handle it. And maybe they will be helped by it. Or maybe afterwards somebody will come up to me and say, I saw what happened there. I'd like to know more about it. And I carry with me this little book, experiencing grief. Because I'm always looking and listening, both verbally and non verbally. And if I see somebody who's having a difficult time, I might come over and hand them the little book and say, you know, maybe this will help. Why don't you read it when you are ready. See, I emphasize that when you are ready. Because one of the things that we do with people who are in grief is we try to shut them down. We try to make sure that they're not crying anymore. Why help them cry? Cry with them, because they need that. And if they can read this and get something out of it.
- [16:59]
Jim Daly
Norm, let me ask you this. You know, in a Christian context, is it okay to be angry at God? And for how long? And how does that discussion go? I think, you know, all of us, especially if we're committed believers in Christ, we encounter a terrible situation. We hold back in that honest discussion with God. Perhaps we refrain from being honest with him and how much it hurts. How do we manage our relationship with God when bad things happen to people?
- [17:29]
Dr. Norm Wright
If I were working with you and you have not asked the question, why? Why God? Where were you? I will bring it up because I know it's somewhere there. And you're probably wondering, is it okay to voice that so you'll prompt it. Job asked the question 16 times. Did he ever get an answer? No. People think about Job, that he got everything restored to him. His family, his goods, everything. That's not the theme of the Book of Job. The book of Job was a new relationship with God. Because he said, earlier, I had heard of you with my ears. Now I have seen you with my eyes. And so it's important to talk about why God. Because it's not just a question, it's a cry of protest. And eventually that cry of protest turns from why? To what can I learn through this? How can I grow through this? And maybe, maybe, how can God be glorified through this? One of the things that I tell people is that no tragedy is ever wasted in God's economy. Yes, he will use it. The number of people that I have worked with over the years who've had disabled children, who have lost children in death, who have lost family members, I can draw on where I've been and share that with them. And maybe by my sharing, it encourages them to open up and say, well, now that you mentioned that, here's what's going on with me, Norm. We go from there.
- [19:10]
Jim Daly
There's so many things popping in my mind right now. Romans 8:28. We can struggle with that. Of course, that Scripture says that all things work for good to those who love the Lord and are called by James one.
- [19:21]
Dr. Norm Wright
Yeah, count it. All joy, my brethren. Count it means make up your mind to regard that adversity as something to welcome and to be glad about.
- [19:31]
Jim Daly
Now I have to imagine, Norm, there are people listening who have gone through something devastating. They're still trying to reconcile. Romans 8:28. They're still trying to figure out, lord, why, how can this lead to some kind of good, the taking of my spouse, whatever it might be. If you're in that spot for a long period of time, what advice do you have to begin to let, as you said earlier, let this seep out of you, writing it down, vocalizing it. What if you've done those things and it's still there's this gnawing irritation about God doing this to you?
- [20:11]
Dr. Norm Wright
You continue to ask those questions. You continue to talk to other people.
- [20:16]
Jim Daly
So continue to wrestle.
- [20:17]
Dr. Norm Wright
You keep on wrestling. Find a grief group. Grief Share is in over 17,000 churches in this country, and the number of people they have just ministered to is just amazing. And this is a part of the group that I work with, and I work with regular groups, but at the same time, I also work with the groups where they've lost a child. Because you carry with you a shadow grief the rest of your life when you've lost a child. Always present, it's always under the surface. And the little things that can just trigger them off. The song, the sight. I remember looking at a young man walking, and it was like I was seeing my son Matthew again. We expected something with Matthew because he was a profoundly retarded son. What we didn't expect was the death of my daughter Cheryl. And I'll never forget getting the phone call from Bill nor Cheryl died during the night. It was totally unreal. I wasn't hearing that.
- [21:27]
Jim Daly
And she was only in her 50s, 53.
- [21:30]
Dr. Norm Wright
And I just had to hear it again and again. I read it again the other day, and it just put me under the table. But that's all right. I will grieve her probably the rest of my life.
- [21:42]
Jim Daly
My brother, who lost a son, he said to me on the phone not long ago, he said, not a day goes by that I don't think of him. And that's true, isn't it?
- [21:51]
Dr. Norm Wright
It is.
- [21:52]
Jim Daly
And it's hard for those of us who maybe have not had that happen to us to understand that.
- [21:56]
Dr. Norm Wright
Other people say, well, you need to get on with your life. No, that's not what we need to hear. I see your hurt. I see your pain. Just try to connect in that way. Loss is a big part of our life. Grief is a part of our life. The more you and I can understand about this, the better off we will be to handle it and realize this is life, this is normal.
- [22:24]
Jim Daly
Norm, an additional good thing I think you put in your book, and we're coming down to the end, but I want to continue if we can, and come back tomorrow and talk more about this. But I want to make sure we put a tool in the hands of the folks that are grieving and are hurting, and they're hearing this, and it's raising issues now for them. Certainly, we want you to call us. We have caring Christian counselors that are here to help you. But in addition to that, you mentioned find something to do. And this resonates with me because you can get stuck on the couch or your comfy chair and get lost in that loneliness. The idea of getting up and getting out and doing something. Maybe it's that group that you mentioned, but I want you to amplify that. Why that is important for a human being who's grieving and in a very isolated place. Why is it so important to get up and do something?
- [23:20]
Dr. Norm Wright
If we can do something, we feel like we're contributing. We feel like there's something here that maybe will help in the life of another person. Maybe it's taking a little book and going out to a group at the church and sharing your story and passing out these books. Because that way I feel productive. Otherwise, I feel like I'm draining everybody else. And I want to feel like my life continues to count. That's so important. This is why that statement, who's the spiritual leader on your block? Maybe five houses up, there's been a loss. And so we call them and say, I'd like to bring a meal over. What would you like? And here's four possibilities. And I have a little DVD called Tear Soup, and I can bring it with me, and it takes maybe 16 minutes to watch it. And we can sit there and we can watch. And I know what's going to happen because I've done this myself. I'll take the food over, I'll take the DVD over, and then I'll go home with an empty plate because they'll eat it all. But they will not send home that little DVD because they're going to say, I want to watch it again. I've got relatives coming in this weekend. I want them to hear it. And in 16 minutes, it normalizes for you what you're going through at this time. And so this is something tangible we can do. I encourage people to make a list and have something to do every day. It might take you five minutes, it might take you five hours. But that way you can look back and say, you know, in spite of what I went through, I was productive. I'm working right now with a couple from Las Vegas. I've seen them over 60 times.
- [25:12]
Jim Daly
They were part of the shooting there.
- [25:13]
Dr. Norm Wright
They lost their daughter, and she was 22. And they described it in such a way that when I think about the loss of that girl, I begin to cry because it was so real. But this couple, they don't think they've improved. I see the improvement. And they're sharing in this group and they're telling what they're doing and they're telling how they're helping other individuals, and that is giving them something to hang on to. We want to feel like I'm not wasting this experience.
- [25:50]
Jim Daly
Such good insights there from the late Dr. Norm Wright, who we're featuring on today's episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Norm was a gifted counselor and communicator, obviously, and we so appreciated his wisdom as he shared with us about navigating seasons of grief and pain. And if today's discussion resonated with you and you'd like to talk with someone about a difficult situation you're facing, we're happy to connect you with a member of our counseling team. These are caring Christian professionals who are available to talk with you and pray with you, and they can refer you to the resources you need. Call today to schedule a time with one of our counselors. Our number is 800-232-6459. 800. The letter A in the Word Family. You can also connect with us via our website and that link is in the Show Notes.
- [26:40]
John Fuller
One of the resources we'll recommend is Norm's great book When It Feels like.
- [26:44]
Jim Daly
The sky is how to Find Hope.
- [26:47]
John Fuller
In an Uncertain World. And this is chock full of stories and practical encouragement for you and your family. And I want to highly recommend you get a copy. We can send you a copy of this book when you make a monthly pledge of any amount to Focus on the Family. We're looking for ministry partners, financial partners who want to join us in strengthening families and giving Godly hope to people.
- [27:11]
Jim Daly
Who really need it.
- [27:12]
John Fuller
So a monthly pledge would be great and we can get Norm's book right out to you to say thank you. Also, a one time gift is good. Anything and everything helps. And let me again say that we will send you the book as our way of extending a thank you to you.
- [27:27]
Jim Daly
Yeah, join the support team today when you call 800 the letter A in the Word Family or donate and get that book When It Feels like the sky is falling when you click on the link in the Show Notes. Coming up tomorrow, we'll HEAR More from Dr. Norm Wright about how trauma can impact us in unexpected ways.
- [27:45]
Dr. Norm Wright
The majority of people who experience PTSD are right here in our country. They're everyday individuals. You're driving down the street and all of a sudden somebody runs out in front of you and you hit them. Okay, you've been traumatized.
- [28:02]
Jim Daly
Thanks for joining us today. For Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
- [28:16]
Dr. Greg
Put on your comfiest fuzzy slippers, pour your favorite beverage into a fancy glass, grab your spouse and turn on focus on the family's Loving well podcast. Season eight is finally here. Dr. Greg and I have new heartwarming love stories and practical marriage advice to help you cherish your spouse and put Christ's love at the center of your relationship. Listen to Season 8 of Loving well Right now. Wherever you get your podcasts.