A Dad, a Daughter & a 200-Foot Cliff • followHIM Favorites • Jan. 26 - Feb. 1 • Come Follow Me

Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: followHIM
Hosts: Hank Smith & John Bytheway
Episode Title: A Dad, a Daughter & a 200-Foot Cliff • followHIM Favorites • Jan. 26 - Feb. 1 • Come Follow Me
Air Date: January 22, 2026

This episode of followHIM Favorites uses a personal, vivid story from Hank Smith to delve into the principles of agency, parenting, and spiritual leadership as illuminated in Genesis 5 and Moses 6 from the "Come, Follow Me" lesson. Hank shares a poignant, meaningful dream about his daughter and the lessons it taught him about leading instead of forcing, echoing the week’s scriptural themes of teaching and agency within families. The discussion weaves personal reflection with doctrinal insights, making it both relatable and spiritually instructive.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Dream: A Lesson in Agency and Parenting (00:03–05:13)

• Setting the Scene:
  Hank describes a striking dream where he and his young daughter, Madeline, are atop a dangerous red cliff in southern Utah. (00:03)

• Instinct vs. Agency:
  As Madeline ignores his warnings and backs toward the cliff edge, Hank’s instinct is to forcibly intervene, but every approach pushes her closer to danger.

• The Critical Change:
  Hank fights his instinct and, counterintuitively, takes a step away from her. This change in approach puzzles Madeline, who then steps toward him, away from the cliff. Eventually, he runs away from the cliff, and she chases him to safety. (03:18)

Quote:
"I had a feeling…that I should do something that was entirely against my nature, which was take a step away from her…She looked at me kind of confused, this little girl. And she took a step towards me, John." — Hank Smith (03:45)

2. Reflection and Interpretation with Sarah Smith (05:13–06:03)

• Deeper Meaning:
  After sharing the dream, Hank’s wife Sarah interprets it as a lesson in parenting styles, suggesting that his tendency to control could push their daughter closer to danger rather than keep her safe.

Sarah’s Advice:
"In parenting, we have to learn. It's not about forcing. It's about leading." — Sarah Smith (05:54)

• Hank is deeply impacted, realizing that effective teaching—even of vital spiritual truths—should be done freely, not forcefully.

Quote:
"I didn't read 'Teach these things forcefully unto your children.'” — Hank Smith (06:01)

3. Spiritual Application—Leading Like the Good Shepherd (06:03–06:24)

• Shepherd Analogy:
  John draws a parallel to Christ as the shepherd who “leads” rather than drives with force, illustrating how love and leadership are rooted in agency and relationship.

Quote:
"You call them by name and they know your name, and you lead them. I need to have more dreams, Hank." — John Bytheway (06:10)

• Hank and John relate this parenting lesson to God's nature and the scriptural theme of teaching agency, highlighting that God guides but never compels.

4. Concluding Reflections and Invitation (06:24–End)

• Personality and Agency:
  Hank notes that his daughter, like many of God’s children, is especially resistant to force. He observes this is “very godlike”—agency is inherent to God’s children.

• Direct Application:
  The hosts encourage listeners to lead with love and guidance, fostering agency rather than control—both in parenting and in teaching gospel principles.

• Full Episode Teaser:
  Listeners are invited to join the full podcast episode with guest Dr. Kerry Meelstein for more in-depth discussion.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "You have a tendency to parent a lot like you were parented... I think something might be telling you that when you do that, you're actually going to push her towards the very things you don't want her to go towards."
  — Sarah Smith (04:43)

• "In parenting, we have to learn. It's not about forcing. It's about leading."
  — Sarah Smith (05:54)

• "I didn't read Teach these things forcefully unto your children."
  — Hank Smith (06:01)

• "You call them by name and they know your name, and you lead them."
  — John Bytheway (06:10)

• "God isn't forced to do anything. He's not a slave to anyone. Yet sometimes we think the best way to help our children is to force them to do something. It can be quite counterproductive."
  — Hank Smith (06:28)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:03 | Hank introduces the week's lesson and sets up his personal story | | 01:00 | Hank narrates the dream on the red cliff with his daughter | | 03:45 | The pivotal moment—Hank steps back and Madeline comes toward him | | 04:43 | Sarah interprets the dream and shares parenting insight | | 05:54 | "It's about leading, not forcing"—Sarah's pivotal quote | | 06:03 | Reflection on teaching "freely" vs. "forcefully" | | 06:10 | The shepherd analogy by John Bytheway | | 06:28 | Broader spiritual implications on agency and God’s nature |

---

Summary

This followHIM Favorites episode celebrates agency in teaching and parenting, using Hank Smith’s heartfelt dream as a springboard for spiritual and practical reflection. With warmth and humor, the hosts model vulnerability and learning, encouraging listeners to lead with love, respect agency, and teach gospel truths with gentleness—not coercion. The episode harmonizes scriptural counsel with real-life experience, leaving listeners encouraged and better equipped for both parenting and discipleship.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Follow Him. Favorites this is where John and I share a single story to go with each week's lesson. John we are in Genesis chapter 5 and Moses chapter 6 this week that talks about how Adam and Eve taught freely to their children. Enoch did as well. It also talks quite a bit about agency and how important agency is to God. I have a story that mixes all these things in together. It's not a story I share often because it is quite meaningful to me, but it does have some funny elements to it. Years and years ago, when my sweet daughter was our only child. Her name is Madeline. Her name is Madeline Pitts now. She recently got married. At the time, she was just my little girl, Madeline Smith. I had a dream about her. In the dream, I was back home in southern Utah. If you've been to St. George, lots of big red cliffs everywhere. We used to play on those cliffs when we were kids. We would play who can roll the rocks closest to the cars without hitting them. Fun games like that. Yeah, John, when you're a kid, those cliffs are fun and exciting, but when you're a dad, those cliffs are dangerous. In my dream, I'm on top of one of these red cliffs with my little daughter Madeline. She's probably three years old or four years old. Of course, I tell her to not go near the cliff because I don't want her to get hurt. So I say, don't go near the cliff. To which she automatically looks over and thinks I'm going to go close to the cliff because that's what our children do. So she starts going over to the cliff. In my dream again, this is a dream. I say, hey, hey, stop where you are. I don't want you going to the closer to the cliff. And she thought it was actually quite funny, smiled at me and started going faster towards the cliff. Now I'm getting nervous, John, and I go over to her and I use my dad voice. Do you have a dad voice? John? I use my dad voice.

[B]

I think I do.

[A]

Madeline, you stop right there. And she would turn and she had her back to the cliff and she looked at me and I said, hey, you stop right there. I'm gonna walk over there and get you. So I took a step towards her and she smiled and took a step back and I went, okay, I had to use my big dad voice, right? Like Madeline Smith, right? Use her full name. Madeline. SM. Don't move. I'm gonna come get you. Don't move. And I took a step towards her and she took another step back. We do this a few times. And she's getting closer and closer to the cliff. I'm really getting upset with her and she is not listening to me. She's just smiling. She has no idea the danger that she's in. Yet I cannot get her to listen to me, John. If I'd have known it was a danger dream, I would have like grabbed her and flown to Disneyland. But I really thought this was real at the time. It was so real. I'm not a dreamer. It's not something that happens to me often. But this was really intense. I had a feeling, John, in my dream that I should do something that was entirely against my nature, which was take a step away from her. And I fought that automatically. I fought that. No, no, no, no. If I take a step away from her and she takes a step back, that's it. Like I can't get to her. And I should have known it was a dream, John. Cause I did the right thing. I took a step back and she looked at me kind of confused, this little girl. And she took a step towards me, John. The automatic thing I wanted to do when she took a step towards me was to step towards her and grab her. But I thought, okay, that's, that's not gonna work. That's not gonna work. Take another step back. So I took. She looked confused and she took a step towards me and I thought, what am I doing? Why are we even staying next to this cliff? I turned around and ran away from her and she laughed and chased me and we were far away from the cliff. Then I woke up later on. I was chatting with my wife, Sarah, and I told her about this dream. You know, I got into all the details about it, John, you know Sarah, she said, that's actually a pretty incredible dream. Dream. You know what it means, right? And I thought, yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah, of course I know. I said, why don't you tell me what you think it means and then I'll tell you what what I think it means. Because honestly, John, up to that point I thought it meant don't eat pizza after 11. She said, you have a tendency to parent a lot like you were parented. Which was pretty rough. I was a brand new parent at the time. I mean, it was our first child. She said, you have a tendency to parent like that. And I think what something might be telling you that something was heaven. She said, I think something might be telling you that when you do that, you're actually going to push her towards the very things you don't Want her to go towards.

[B]

Very interesting.

[A]

That hit me hard, John. I remember saying something like, well, yeah, that's exactly. That's exactly what I thought.

[B]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

[A]

A hundred percent what I was thinking. She was right. I did have a tendency to do. My house, my rules. Here you are, three years old, pick up a toilet scrubber, let's get ready to work. You got to earn your way in this house. And then Sarah said something that honestly changed my life, John. She didn't mean to. It wasn't a big, huge moment. It didn't have music. It was just something she said casually that I went and wrote down. She said, in parenting, we have to learn. It's not about forcing. It's about leading. It's not about forcing. It's about leading. And I immediately went to my journal and I wrote that down when I saw this lesson. The name of this lesson, teach these things freely unto your children. I didn't read Teach these things forcefully unto your children.

[B]

That's so good. I think of Jesus being the good shepherd, and anciently, you would lead sheep. And in the Western cultures, we herd sheep with our Ford F150 and a bunch of dogs. But anciently, you call them by name and they know your name, and you lead them. It was kind of that idea. I need to have more dreams, Hank.

[A]

Yeah, but it's not something that happens often to me. But there is something about that, especially in some children, and my daughter is one of them who just thought, don't force me. I'll push back against force. Which is very godlike, isn't it, John? I mean, God isn't forced to do anything. He's not a slave to anyone. Yet sometimes we think the best way to help our children is to force them to do something. It can be quite counterproductive. A lot of us parents have to learn the hard way, sadly. We hope you'll join us on our full podcast. It's called Follow Him. You can get it wherever you get your podcasts. We were with Dr. Kerry Meelstein this week. John Kerry Meelstein, Egyptologist. Brilliant, funny. He is. The whole package. You're gonna love it. Join us over there and then come back next week. We'll do another Follow him favorites.