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Doctrine & Covenants 64-66 Part 1 • Dr. Jason Whiting • June 16-22 • Come Follow Me
01:12:02
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- [00:00]
Smith
Coming up in this episode on Follow.
- [00:03]
John
Him, I'll say, how often do you guys apologize after something's happened? Sometimes people say never. That's always a huge concern if somebody is not saying, you know what, I didn't act in the right way or I could have handled that better. I'm sorry I said what he said. That's what you want to hear. Because if you don't hear that and there are people who won't go there, then you're probably not going to be getting much change.
- [00:28]
Smith
Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Smith. I'm your host. I'm here with my co host, John, by the way, who is not weary in well doing. John, I've known you a long time. I have yet to see you weary in well doing.
- [00:44]
Dr. Jason Whiting
I'm just generally weary, but thank you all the time.
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Smith
I see you weary in everything else except for well doing.
- [00:52]
Dr. Jason Whiting
Right.
- [00:53]
Smith
That's funny, John. We are joined by Dr. Jason Whiting today out of BYU. Jason, thanks for being here.
- [01:01]
John
It's great to be here with both of you.
- [01:02]
Smith
I've been looking forward to this for a long time. Jason and I actually met on an airplane months ago. I'm excited for the audience to meet Jason. John, when you think of this trip to Missouri and now we're back, a lot has happened, a lot of drama, a lot of change on that trip to Missouri. What do you think Joseph Smith and his associates are feeling when they get back?
- [01:28]
Dr. Jason Whiting
When you work together with a lot of people, I just think of these sections as forgiveness sections.
- [01:33]
Smith
Right.
- [01:34]
Dr. Jason Whiting
You notice things about people and then you can decide whether to harbor that or hang onto it, whether to try to let that go. I love the message of how forgiving the Lord is in these sections. Therefore, you ought to forgive each other.
- [01:48]
Smith
Yeah. As we talked about these last few weeks, as we get into the Lord's work together, we start to bump up against each other.
- [01:55]
Dr. Jason Whiting
Exactly.
- [01:56]
Smith
You get a little human and messy and ornery and snarky a little bit. Jason, as you've looked at these sections, what do you want to do today? Where do we want to go?
- [02:06]
John
It's exactly what you're both talking about. We have some challenging situations in the relationships that we have with each other. I actually want to start with an overview quote from President Nelson. He talks about relationships. This is a talk you're all familiar with. I love this talk about peacemakers needed. He says, my dear brothers and sisters, how we treat each other really matters. How we speak to and about others. At home, at church, at work and online really matters. Today, I'm asking us to interact with others in a higher, holier way. My hope is that we can talk about forgiveness in some depth because I think that's a real key to relationships. It's part of how we treat each other, and it's one of the keys in terms of being Christlike. But it's hard. I'll talk a little bit about that today. Why forgiveness is such a challenging thing to do at times, but why it's crucial for our spiritual well being, for our relational well being. I'll talk about how that applies in our relationships and our families, including at times when they're unhealthy, when things are not going well or even becoming damaging. How does forgiveness still apply in those tricky situations? And we'll talk about how the Savior can help us with this challenging but important doctrine.
- [03:21]
Smith
Oh, that's fantastic. John, do you remember last year we were with Dr. Rebecca Clark? She said, think about heaven. Heaven is relationships. You don't think about the clouds or the streets or the food. Well, occasionally maybe you think about the food. When you think of heaven, you think of relationships. It makes sense that the Lord's saying, well, if this is going to be heaven, we better work on this and get it right.
- [03:45]
Dr. Jason Whiting
Talking about church history, this has really helped me, Hank, a lot, to open my mind to this idea. Melissa, in a way, helped us with this. What you just said, Jason, about what we say about each other really matters. But I never applied that to living or dead. Or maybe we could say it better. What we say about each other on both sides of the veil really matters. It's tempting that, well, once somebody's dead, you can say whatever you want. But what if it's true, Hank, that those relationships are going to endure? What if we're going to meet Joseph? What if we're going to meet Emma? What if we're going to meet Brigham? Maybe what we say about them really matters, even right now.
- [04:23]
Smith
Yeah, I love it. Before we can let Jason take the reins and teach John, we better tell our audience who he is. There's many students at BYU who know Dr. Whiting. Let's introduce him.
- [04:36]
Dr. Jason Whiting
Yes. Jason B. Whiting. He has a PhD. He's a licensed marriage and family therapist and a professor in the Marriage and Family Therapy program at Brigham Young University. He researches healthy and unhealthy marriage. He's the author of Love Me Overcoming the Surprising Ways We Deceive in Relationships, as well as other books and articles on addiction. Control and quality communication. Jason and his wife April have been married for almost 30 years and are the parents of six children, two daughters in law and a son in law. In his free time he enjoys books, being outdoors, playing guitar, oil painting and folding huge piles of laundry. That is the right attitude to have because that is a first world problem when you have lots of laundry, isn't it?
- [05:25]
Smith
Right, John, do you remember laundry Nirvana? I can't remember which guest that was.
- [05:29]
Dr. Jason Whiting
Oh, Emily Watts talks about, you never get to the point because even as we're talking, someone is out there producing new dirty laundry.
- [05:38]
Smith
It's never ending. Never ending. Well, Jason, we are so glad you are here. As hosts of this program, John and I both and our entire team feel who we invite on is important. We're always watching for the hand of the Lord. Jason and I sat down next to each other and we started chatting. Found out we both teach at byu, made this connection. I thought the Lord is in this. I hope the Lord is in this. Let's get started. I'm going to read from the Come follow me manual. Then, Jason, I want to see where you want to go with this. The lesson begins this way. In the miserable heat Of August of 1831, several elders were traveling back to Kirtland from the land of Zion in Missouri. The travelers were hot and weary. The tensions soon turned into quarrels. It may have seemed like building Zion, a city of love, unity and peace, was going to take a long time. I don't know about either of you. That never happens in our family when everybody gets hot and weary quarreling. I love it. Fortunately, building Zion in Missouri in 1831 or in our hearts, families and wards today doesn't require us to be perfect instead of you. It is required to forgive. The Lord said he requires the heart and a willing mind and he requires patience and diligence. For Zion is built on the foundation of small things accomplished by those who do not become weary in, well, doing, like John. By the way, I love this interaction. I feel like we're going to learn a lot today about our relationships with each other. With that, Jason, how do you want to start this? Do you want to look at the history first?
- [07:22]
John
Yeah. Let me expand a little bit on what you just described there from that summer because it was a challenging time. I think it illustrates well what you were just saying, which is that we have normal, human difficult interactions that bring out our immaturities and our irritabilities that then leads to some challenging situations. We have to choose what to do with that. What was happening during this time was in the summer of 1831. Leading up to that summer, there had been a conference at Isaac Morley's farm. Spirits were high. People were fired up. They were talking about Missouri. Hey, this is going to be the new Jerusalem. It's a big deal. There's going to be a temple there. Maybe even the Lord is going to come back and meet us there. There's a lot of excitement. There are a bunch of elders who are called to go to Missouri. It's a series of missionaries. Thirteen different companionships, in addition to Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon are asked to go. One of those companionships was Ezra Booth and Isaac Morley. They were both converts of recent years. Ezra Booth had in fact been a minister that caused this stir in his congregation when he said, hey, I've found this thing, and it's the truth. He started really strong. But troubles became a thing for him pretty quickly after this strong start. Starting with, they're asked to go to Missouri, and Ezra Booth and Isaac Morley are told he you guys are supposed to walk to Missouri. Joseph and Sidney jump in a cart. They take off. That right away bothers Ezra Booth. He's like, wait a minute, we're going to walk and we're going to preach along the way in the heat and the bugs and you guys are getting in a cart. When I read that, I thought, that's like on a mission. When the zone leaders take the car and they go to the conference and they say, you guys meet us there, but do knock doors along the way.
- [09:12]
Smith
How fair is that?
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John
Exactly what you guys are doing this thing, it's this long, tough journey, and then they get there after all this hype, it's really nothing that special. It's a lot of prairie. There are some converts there, but it's not some big glittering center of Zion. Booth feels like Joseph has over promised. They settle in a little bit. Joseph does receive some more revelations, as has been talked about in previous weeks. The location of the temple, for example. They also get a warning that Zion won't be built up until after much tribulation. It's not going to happen instantly. Then the Lord warns them about complaining, which you would think would get their attention. He says, I'm giving you a commandment to not do things with a doubtful heart and not be slothful, essentially, is what he says. Some stay, some settle in, but a lot of the others take off, as you alluded to earlier, and they're heading out to do some other missionary work. But it was hard they were jumping on a river. Have you ever tried to navigate a river on a canoe with your family members or whatever? You can see how the irritability might be a thing. That's not exactly a serene situation on the Missouri River. So they're having petty arguments. At one point, they're rowing on a rough river. Oliver Cowdery refuses to row. They almost capsize. And then they all disembark to talk it over. Now, here's the quote from the church history book Saints. It says, after they set up camp, Joseph, Oliver and Sidney tried to talk to the group and ease tensions. Irritated, the men called Joseph and Sidney cowards for getting off the river, mocked the way Oliver paddled his canoe, and accused Joseph of acting like a dictator. The quarrel lasted long into the night.
- [11:00]
Smith
Wow.
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John
Good times. Not easy, right? Even good people get caught up in petty and stressful and irritable situations. That's just life. Sometimes we forget as we kind of get the highlights from these church history events that day to day, there's some pretty tough stuff that happens.
- [11:18]
Smith
I laugh a little bit at things like this, but to be honest, if you wanted to record situations where I have been that person, there would be so many to choose from. Where I got a little irrational. Sorry what I said when I was hungry. John, I've never seen you, Andre, in all of our time together.
- [11:38]
Dr. Jason Whiting
We have a family joke about this because we drove to Seattle in our sequoia. The majority of the passengers were telling me I was driving too slow.
- [11:52]
John
Classic.
- [11:53]
Dr. Jason Whiting
We had to have a rest stop and have a little family meeting.
- [11:59]
Smith
Oh, man, I love it.
- [12:01]
Dr. Jason Whiting
It makes them okay. They're like us. They're doing the best they can. If they write a saints book about me, there'd be stuff like this in it.
- [12:10]
Smith
I love it.
- [12:11]
Dr. Jason Whiting
What was it about Oliver's rowing? Because I know he was like, you put the oar in upside down, Oliver, the big end goes in the water. I mean, I'd love to know.
- [12:22]
John
Yeah. What were they making fun of? I don't know. They had their stop at the rest stop moment like you guys did. We got to stop and talk about this. So they all got out. Over the next day or two, they did chill out a little bit. They resolved some things and they were doing better. The Lord even says in section 61, he says, I, the Lord was angry with you yesterday, but today mine anger is turned away. Then he says, inasmuch as you have humbled yourselves before me, the blessings of the kingdom are yours. I like that phrase. Some of them chose to humble themselves. That's a conscious thing to do. It implies agency. Some did, but some stayed cranky, including Ezra Booth, who at that point leaves his mission and he's heading home. The follow up to that is after he returns back to Ohio from Missouri. He continues to criticize Joseph. He starts to write material in newspapers that's negative about the church. Eventually his preaching license is revoked. He leaves the church. But interestingly enough, his companion, Isaac Morley, takes a different path. He has some struggles in section 64, which we'll talk about this a little bit. Both of those guys are rebuked by the Lord. But at some point, Isaac Morley softens. He stops complaining and becomes more valiant. He at one point then gives most of his farm to the church. He later becomes a bishop, a patriarch, and he goes west with the saints. Two different paths for those missionary companions. Now we get to section 64, which the Lord reveals in September. It's after many of them are back in Ohio. The first few verses, he tells them to receive his will to overcome the world and that he'll have compassion on them. And he says, some have sinned, but I have forgiven them and that he is merciful. Then he reminds them that Joseph holds the keys. Then we get to these which are the most discussed verses on forgiveness. Starting in verse six, he says there are those who have sought occasion against Joseph Smith without cause. I'm going to talk about that phrase, seeking occasion, this sort of choosing to find fault or to be critical, wanting to be offended. Almost. Verse 7, he says he has sinned. But verily I say unto you, I, the Lord forgive sins unto those who confess their sins before me and ask forgiveness who have not sinned unto death. Joseph did have flaws, but he worked on those with God. Basically, I think the Lord is saying, it's not your job to point out and to pick on those flaws. I'm the one that forgives. Then he gives this little aside which is really interesting and really important. He says, my disciples in days of old sought occasion against one another and forgave not one another in their hearts. And for this evil they were afflicted and sorely chastened. Wherefore I say unto you that ye ought to forgive one another. For he that forgiveth not his brother, his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord. For there remaineth in him the greater sin. I the Lord will forgive, whom I will forgive, but of you I will. It is required to forgive all men. We have this really powerful core doctrine about forgiveness that is at times really challenging. My plan is to talk about this general idea about forgiveness, why it's a core doctrine, how we work with God for our own forgiveness, but then particularly how it works as we have relationships with other people, how we forgive others, why it is hard, why it's a blessing, why we sometimes seek occasion or find fault. Then we'll talk about why that's a commandment and it's a sin to not forgive. We'll talk about the blessings of forgiveness and how that applies for our lives.
- [16:09]
Smith
Right now. If I'm a listener and I want to turn this off because I know the lessons that's coming and I don't want to hear it, I could be Isaac Morley and I could say, you know what? I'm going to humble myself and do this. Or I could be Ezra Booth and say, nope, I'm not interested. Hopefully everybody listening is going to be an Isaac Morley here. And how do I humble myself enough to be open?
- [16:32]
John
It's a good question. It's hard to do. Let's start with seeking forgiveness from God, because I think that's one of the ways that we become softer and more forgiving of others, is we're reminded of our own imperfections and our own dependence on being forgiven from our heavenly Father. In fact, the Come Follow Me manual starts with a good question. It says, think about a time when the Lord forgave you. How did you feel? That's great. It's a beautiful doctrine to be forgiven because we all make mistakes all the time. We always need it. We all have had that experience where we feel that relief from being forgiven and moving on and starting over. President Nelson, of course, has said a lot about daily repentance, which is this really great reminder that even though we're flawed, we check in with God and He is there and he's merciful. He said, jesus stands with open arms, hoping and willing to heal, forgive, cleanse, strengthen, purify, and sanctify us. Nothing is more liberating, more ennobling, or more crucial to our individual progression than is a regular daily focus on repentance. It's this great reminder how merciful God is. He is loving. He is a supportive parent. When we have a relationship with him daily, then we're blessed. That doctrine from President Nelson has blessed me a lot. When I think about daily repentance, instead of just thinking, oh, I've done something really terrible. I need to repent, it's better to think, oh, it's just another day. I need to check in with God and repent. That has been a blessing for me. I know I don't do it great. In fact, I'm sure I need to repent of. Not daily repenting, but the effort of doing that really is helpful, I think, for all of us.
- [18:10]
Smith
It does soften you.
- [18:12]
John
Yeah. It's a tough world out there. There's a lot of discouragement. There's a lot of people who feel down, who feel hard on themselves. It's a sign of the last days that men's hearts shall fail them. I'm a therapist, so I work with a lot of people who feel discouraged, they feel down, and they feel like they're not what they ought to be. I was working with a woman once. This was many years ago. She was a Christian. She was not a member of our faith. But she said, I go to church and I read the Bible, and I always just focus on the parts that are saying you're less than the dust of the earth, or you're fallen or you're corrupt. She said, I have a really hard time accepting God's love, that I'm worthy of God's love. And we talked about it. I said, that's a great thing to identify. How can we talk about that in a way that's helpful for you and that you can accept and receive God's love? Then she said this interesting thing. She said, even when I come to therapy, I do this thing where I only go one time, and then I think I'm not really deserving of more help. I said, well, I'm glad you told me that as well, because how can we make this different and how can we make this a place of safety and of healing? It was a good conversation. Then she never came back. I was like, wow, that's so sad that she has that feeling of, I just am down and God doesn't love me and I need to live in that depression. Even the Old Testament in the Bible, where we sometimes think of God as a pretty strict and demanding God, there's a lot of doctrine of love and mercy in there. In Nehemiah, there's a quote that says, I'm a God, ready to pardon, gracious and merciful. It's just replete throughout the Old Testament. God is merciful, or even though your sins are as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow. This is a God who is generous, who is forgiving, and who doesn't hold petty grudges. Of course, the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants have a lot of those same scriptures. As often as my people Repent. Will I forgive them their trespasses? We fall short all the time. But God is really merciful. He's asking us to be more like.
- [20:16]
Smith
He is with each other, experiencing his forgiveness. One helps you be grateful to God for forgiveness, but also teaches you how to forgive. He almost shows you how it's done. He's just really good at it.
- [20:32]
John
He is the perfect example of it. He doesn't hold grudges. He's not petty. He's not vindictive. Us, not so much. Like we struggle with those things.
- [20:41]
Smith
Yeah, Hang on to things for too long.
- [20:44]
Dr. Jason Whiting
That's what I get from these sections. I forgive. You ought to forgive each other. The thing that's really helpful to me, I heard it called the doctrine of reciprocity once. Hank, do you remember? I don't remember who. The idea of a reciprocal infractions. It's right out of the Lord's Prayer. Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. The Beatitudes. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. If I need forgiveness, I need to forgive. That's motivating to me, to withhold harsh judgment because I want others not to judge me harshly.
- [21:20]
Smith
Oh, man, that's hard when I'm feeling humble, which is not very often. John knows that I recognize that he is a better judge of the situation than I am. I look at this other person or people and I think I understand the motive. I understand what happened in this way, he's saying, no, I understand the person and the motive. I'm the judge here. It doesn't happen very often, but it does happen occasionally where I think, all right, you obviously understand this more than I do. I'll take the direction from you rather than vice versa. I give you the direction.
- [22:02]
John
It's a great point. I'm actually going to cite a little psychological study that describes exactly what you just said, which is how we ascribe motives to the other person that are different than our own motives. We're more quick to defend our own motives than we are somebody else's motives, essentially.
- [22:19]
Smith
Well, I'm excited then. Jason, what do you want to do now?
- [22:22]
John
Let's talk about the reasons that it is difficult to forgive others. There's a lot of things, I think, working against us in that regard. In our own human frailties, for example. The first thing is that relationships are inherently challenging. And that's just because we all are unique. Everybody's different. You're always going to bump up against another person who has different values, opinions, preferences. Not just that, but Everybody has their own blind spots, their own weirdnesses, their biases that they don't even see. Sometimes we're in a relationship where those line up. With our spouse, we can see the world the same, hopefully. Or a great friend or mission companion. But sometimes you bump up against situations where those don't line up very well. And that just reminds us it's a challenge, but it's actually not a problem. It's not a bug of the plan, it's a feature of the plan. It helps us to grow. We're just different.
- [23:15]
Smith
Yeah, that's okay. I like that you said that. It's inherent. You're not broken.
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John
Nope. There's nobody else like you. But that's okay. That's even good because you're going to through life learn to appreciate differences and other perspectives. Hopefully.
- [23:30]
Smith
Hopefully.
- [23:31]
John
And related to that. We all are naturally self centered. We just see the world from our own perspective, if that makes sense. We have the natural man within us, but that can become exaggerated. When we become more self centered, more selfish, we start to run into problems. Particularly from a moral or gospel perspective. In fact, Elder Maxwell said that selfishness is the detonator that breaks most of the Ten Commandments. In section 56, which I know we've been looking at, the Lord says to Ezra Thayer he needs to repent of his pride and of his selfishness. There's a lot of public rebukes in the Doctrine and Covenants that I think would be a little tough to swallow. Joseph Smith said this. Let every selfish feeling be not only buried, but annihilated. That's a pretty high standard. I think. We often work at burying or pushing aside our selfish feelings. But to actually get rid of them, that's tough. That's a work of a lifetime. But again, that's part of what relationships can help us with. Another thing that we do because we're all different and because we bump into these annoyances like those guys did on the river, we can get caught up in fault finding. Everybody has their faults, we all have them. If you're in a mode of looking at someone else's faults, then you're probably going to find them if you are seeking occasion, as the Lord's disciples of old did. But the problem is sometimes we do this thing where we are finding fault in a place where it doesn't even exist. Sometimes, for example, I'm getting annoyed with someone else. But the problem is with me, it's my issue. Maybe I'm irritable, maybe I'm hungry, maybe I'M defensive about something that I did that I shouldn't have done. It relates to this really interesting verse in section 64, verse 16, where the Lord says back to our companionship, Ezra Booth and Isaac Morley. He says, they condemn condemned for evil, that thing in which there was no evil. That's a really interesting verse to me because I see it happen a lot. They were finding faults or problems with Joseph in which there weren't really any faults or problems to be found. It was their issue. It reminded me of this other verse which I like, section 121, verse 17. The Lord says, but those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin and are the children of disobedience themselves. Oftentimes people who are doing the wrong thing are crying transgression about somebody else. They're finding fault sometimes as a way to justify themselves or just to be picky.
- [26:08]
Smith
Wow. Such an insightful thing to say that maybe, I'm sure that there's an evil there and the Lord's saying, there's nothing.
- [26:18]
John
It's your issue. It's not the other person's thing. You are just in this mode of seeking occasion or fault finding. Again, people get in that mode sometimes when they're being cranky or judgy or defending their own misbehavior or whatever. I had this situation once where I was meeting with a woman for marriage therapy. This woman and her husband. She said, I've come to really dread Come follow me. And I said, whoa, what do you mean? Like, that seems sort of blasphemous even. What are you talking about? You dread come follow me? She said, well, let me explain. I'm not a morning person and I have a job, so I'm scrambling in the morning to get ready. But my husband insists that we do it his way. At his time in the morning, when I'm not there, when he thinks I should be, he starts sighing. He's rolling his eyes, he's tapping his fingernails. Even when I sit down to talk about Come follow me and read the scriptures together, he shifts into this pious moralizing, your insights are not as valuable as my insights thing. Like really a problem. That's not what come follow me is about. But for him, he's in this mode of condemning for evil, that thing in which there's no evil. He's judging her based on her style or her preference or her insights. Pretty unhealthy stuff.
- [27:39]
Smith
Wow. He's judging for evil that which is not evil. I wonder. Often we do that with Our children, right?
- [27:45]
John
They're just sometimes kids. We in our own immaturity think they're being evil. They're just being four years old or a teenager or whatever they're being. You know, that's just what happens.
- [27:55]
Smith
Oh, man, I'm loving this, John, aren't you? I love when a guest says, okay, here's what the Lord said. Here's what these people are dealing with. Let's talk about you, let's talk about your life.
- [28:07]
Dr. Jason Whiting
It's very practical. I love that the Savior said, yeah, this has happened before. My disciples in days of old sought occasion. I think of that phrase, Jason, that you brought up a couple of times. They sought occasion. I mean, sought is the past tense of seek. You're looking for it, but you're actually going out there saying, I'm going to find something wrong with this. I'm going to find something wrong with you. So I can hold it over your head and I'm going to keep holding it over your head. I like that. The Savior says, yeah, you guys have the same problem. My disciples did this too. Now we can read it and we can go, yeah, we did this in 2025. We're doing it too.
- [28:52]
John
You know where else I see people seek occasion or look for faults is online. I don't want to get too far off in the weeds on that. But if you've ever read an article about the church, for example, and you read the comments afterwards, people are seeking occasion. They start with an agenda. They go to cherry pick out, look for a reason to be offended. Of course it happens with social issues or political issues. There's another phrase that comes to mind here, which is from the Book of Mormon, which is stirring up anger. People want to stir up anger, particularly in those venues, because it works. People become outraged, it goes viral, it gets attention. People have this motivation to become offended, to cherry pick out problems. It can happen in marriages as well. When they become unhealthy, people start to fault, find or look for reasons to be offended. Terry Warner, who was a philosophy professor at byu, said some people are like missile seeking targets. See what he did there? They are looking for reasons to take shots to be offended. Elder Maxwell also used a similar analogy. He said some people go around covered in boils. When they bump up against something, they're enraged with pain. They have these things to get offended by or to be upset by where there really wasn't a problem. Sometimes it's just differences. People have differences, people have different views, people have different opinions about a variety of issues. Whether it's how to study your scriptures or whether it's about a social issue. President Nelson has spoken about this, too. He said, I'm greatly concerned that so many people seem to believe that it is completely acceptable to condemn the malign and vilify anyone who does not agree with them. It's so easy to do that if you're looking to do that, because we all have differences, but it doesn't help. That's another reason why we need these commandments to forgive, to let go of things, because there will be bumps.
- [30:47]
Smith
Now, I've noticed online, Jason, that anonymity can make it even worse.
- [30:52]
John
Makes it a lot worse. People say things they would never say in person. People will do things online that they would not say in person. Yeah, it doesn't help.
- [31:00]
Smith
No one knows it's me. John, can you help me with this verse where the Lord says, every idle word that men shall speak, they will give an account thereof.
- [31:08]
Dr. Jason Whiting
Matthew 12:36, I think, which is the second scariest verse in the standard works, in my opinion.
- [31:18]
Smith
Every single thing you've said. Why don't we talk about that?
- [31:21]
Dr. Jason Whiting
Every idle word that men shall speak, or text or post. An idle word, it's not. Well, not the words you gave in a talk because you prepared that, but the idle words that slipped out. That's scary.
- [31:36]
Smith
It won't be anonymous then, won't it? That wasn't me. That was somebody. Nope, actually, I know who the account belongs to. Jason, can I ask you a question? You are probably going to go here, but one of the most difficult things I think for me and maybe for others is this idea that there remaineth in me the greater sin. I'm going. I'm not the one who did this. I'm not the one who offended. Now I'm worse because I won't forgive.
- [32:05]
John
I am going to go there in some detail when we get to talk about the atonement, how that is relevant, how we sometimes deny the atonement when we deny someone else. You know, when we deny forgiveness, maybe.
- [32:18]
Smith
That'S the greater sin.
- [32:19]
John
But you're right, that's a tough doctrine in some circumstances.
- [32:23]
Smith
Yeah. Especially on something not so and so. Ate my food. My roommate ate my food. Someone really injured me or my family. And you're telling me this is the greater sin?
- [32:32]
John
Well, let's keep talking about why it's hard. I study anger and I study aggression and escalation and even abuse. One of the things you see as people become unhealthy and as they escalate Is when I'm hurting, I want to lash out, find the cause of that pain. What that means is that turns into an accusation. That can sometimes stir this impulse of revenge, which is kind of a misguided sense of justice. If I'm hurting, I'm going to make you hurt, too. I've interviewed people who have been very clear about that being their motivation, which is a scary thing to get into, especially in an intimate relationship when people start hurting. But you can see how that becomes cyclical, because if I get my feelings hurt and then I lash out and I hurt your feelings, then it becomes this attack, defense, fence. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, and everybody's blind and toothless. There's a lot of damage is done. I often ask couples that. I'll say, tell me about what happens when you argue. People will describe, I get escalated, and our tone gets worse. When that happens, I'll say, do you come away from those escalated exchanges feeling like, that was really great and it was really constructive and you feel closer together? Of course they say, no, we feel terrible. When things escalate, it becomes damaging. But back to President Nelson. He says, anger never persuades, hostility builds. No one contention never leads to inspired solutions. It's just, again, another human impulse that we have. When we're speaking from our own pain or acting from it. We sometimes get in this mode of wanting to cause someone else pain, and that can then generate this back and forth war. Another piece which makes this challenging is that we struggle sometimes to take accountability for our behavior. That's harder than it is to look at your contribution to the problem. I can see your flaws. I can see where you overreacted, but I don't necessarily want to take a look at mine. It's hard. Back to that phrase of humbling ourselves. That's not easy to do. There was a study done by a psychologist named Roy Baumeister where he asked people, think of a time you made someone else angry. And then he said, think of a time someone made you angry. He had people describe those instances. What happened was the descriptions were very different. In theory, you would think it would be the same because it's all about anger. But of course it's not. When I make someone angry, this is the typical story. I had a good reason to do what I did, and it wasn't that bad. They overreacted. They'll get over it. But when someone made me angry, well, they didn't have a good reason. They were just being mean. I am highly offended. I'M not just going to let that go. The psychologists, they said the biases are built into the roles. Like, that's just what humans do. We kind of describe things to support our respective positions. Accountability is difficult. Again, President Nelson spoke to this in that same peacemakers talk, which is so packed with good stuff. He said, at this point, you may be thinking that this message would really help someone. You know, I got a big laugh because it is easy to be like, yeah, you need to do this. But he said, perhaps you are hoping that it will help him or her to be nicer to you. I hope it will. But I also hope that you will look deeply into your heart to become a peacemaker.
- [35:59]
Smith
I will be merciful unto you, the Lord says in verse four.
- [36:04]
Dr. Jason Whiting
I'll bet that Jason, probably more than me and more than you, Hank, have participated in marriage conferences. But I know we all have. We often joke about how many of you wanted to be here, how many of you were dragged here by your spouse. One of the reasons they don't want to come is what? Because they're going to be told all the stuff they're doing wrong. Here's President Nelson saying, I'll bet you can all think of somebody who really needs this talk. Listen up, you people. You really need this. As if to say, I don't, but you all do. Our bishop asked the entire ward after that to read it again.
- [36:46]
John
What was that, 2022, just a few years ago. Yeah, there's a lot packed in there. I've listened to that many times, and each time I'm just impressed with how much good stuff is in there. I've had people come and they've been reading marriage books, but they're reading them in order to point out what their spouse needs to do. And that's less helpful when they're hauling them into therapy.
- [37:06]
Dr. Jason Whiting
I just happened to leave a post it on page 24 for you.
- [37:11]
John
That's exactly what happened, Jason.
- [37:14]
Smith
I want to make a T shirt of that. Accountability is hard. Dr. Jason Whiting. Why is it so hard?
- [37:22]
John
It's humbling. We all have our weaknesses. It's sometimes a little painful and embarrassing to admit those weaknesses. In fact, when you think about addiction recovery groups or even abuse recovery groups, they start with breaking through denial, taking accountability. Because when somebody, for example, is in the throngs of addiction, it's easy to make a lot of excuses and say, well, I'm minimizing this, or I'm hiding this, or I'm embarrassed about it. And it is. I mean, we all have our weaknesses and our embarrassments. I would just say even talking to God sometimes can be that humbling experience. If we don't do it, if we're not accountable, we don't change. If we don't repent, we don't change. If we minimize. There are people who I talk to in relationships, I'll say, you know, how often do you guys apologize after something's happened? Sometimes people say never. That's always a huge concern. If somebody is not saying, you know what, I didn't act in the right way, or I could have handled that better, or I'm sorry I said what I said. That's what you want to hear. Because if you don't hear that and there are people who won't go there, then you're probably not going to be getting much change.
- [38:30]
Smith
John, I know this has never happened to you, but there's been times in my prayers where I've avoided certain topics, where the. The Holy Ghost says, why don't we talk about this? And I'll say, well, we need to bless the missionaries first. Why don't we talk about this? Well, maybe tomorrow we can talk about that. You're right. Being accountable is difficult, but it's freeing, wouldn't you say, Jason?
- [38:54]
John
Of course. That's how change and progress happens. It's another reason why repentance is. There's a sense of peace and relief when God forgives and when we forgive each other. That's how we grow. And in fact, that's what I'll talk about here for the next few minutes. In terms of some family examples. When we're accountable and when we repent and when we forgive, good things happen. What are some good examples from the scriptures related to forgiveness? Several examples came to mind. As I was thinking about these, I realized all of them are about brothers. Here's the first one. Joseph in Egypt gets chucked in a pit. The brothers decide, actually, I think we can make some money. They sell him. I mean, it's a pretty huge betrayal that these brothers did to this brother. I mean, we're talking serious family problems here. Joseph suffers a lot because of it. I mean, he has some tough stuff that he goes through. Ultimately, though, there's a reunification. He forgives his brothers. He says, I see God's hand in it. That's pretty impressive. He forgives. There's hopefully growth and reconciliation. There's another example, the prodigal son. The son wastes his inheritance in riotous living. Ultimately, that is not a fulfilling lifestyle. He comes to himself. He returns to the family. The father rushes out in this Christ like figure and embraces him and is so happy that the son who was lost is now found. Now he could have said, you are no son of mine. You are not coming back. He could have said, do you have any idea how much your mother and I have suffered because of your choices? A lot of families say things like that, he didn't do it, he forgave him. It was the brother who had the struggle and is like, you're having a celebration and killing the fatted calf for him. And he did all that stuff. That's a little more typical of what a family member might too. He had to work on that.
- [40:42]
Smith
They are all brothers, aren't they?
- [40:45]
John
Here's another one. Joseph Smith and William Smith. William was kind of a hothead. I know this was a different era and there was more bluntness and rebuke, that kind of relationships. But things were tense at times between Joseph and William. One day, things boiled over in a meeting where William was chastised. William attacked his brother. He attacked Joseph and he hurt him. This is the quote. It says, Joseph was left bruised and wounded, unable to sit down or rise up without help, and grieved beyond expression at the wickedness of his brother. But within a day or two, William writes him. He says, I feel sorry for what I have done and humbly ask your forgiveness. I feel ashamed and I feel as though all the confessions that I could make verbally or by writing would not be sufficient to atone for the transgression. To his credit, he feels remorse. He's apologizing. I mean, that's important. And Joseph, to his credit, writes him back and says, in your letter, you have asked my forgiveness, which I readily grant. Impressive, even from a pretty difficult fight. A pretty intense situation. Last story, and this one illustrates not just forgiveness in a tough family situation, but also making some choices about separation, choosing safety. This is Nephi and his brothers. In fact, I will just say one of the ways my testimony is strengthened when I read the Book of Mormon is when I read these family stories. I'm saying, that is so on target with what families do, even in the subtleties as far as what they say, how they accuse each other, how they work through things. It's a very human process. I just read those things, I say, wow, that is exactly what families do. These are interesting stories. We all know the stories, right? The brothers had been difficult. They had beat up Nephi with a stick at one point, they're trying to beat him up again. They're trying to lay hands on him. Some of the wives talk Laman and Lemuel down. They calm him down. They then feel bad and they ask for Nephi's forgiveness. And he says, I did frankly forgive them all that they had done. And I did exhort them that they would pray unto the Lord, their God, for forgiveness. Impressive. He could have fought back. He could have resented. He was large in stature. He was probably a physical young guy. He could have gotten into it, but he didn't. He forgave them. But here's the piece that I think is quite interesting. Later, it does get worse. Nephi even says something to the effect like, I'll spare you the details, but suffice it to say they did seek to take away my life. Like it was really serious domestic violence kind of stuff. There is a separation, Nephi and his family and the extended family, they go their own way. That's relevant because of all these family stories which show reconciliation, they show growth, they show forgiveness. They also show, at times, at least in Nephi's case, where there had to be some boundaries set.
- [43:31]
Smith
I was in a Q and A recently. I was watching a therapist give answers to questions. He didn't use the scriptures at all. It wasn't a religious meeting. You take away those scriptures where you can teach these lessons, it's difficult. It's a difficult thing because when I get asked a question, I automatically think, you just did, Jason, of, well, let's look at this example in the scriptures. Let's look at this example in the scriptures. They're just so useful that way. That was fun to walk through that. I'm sure there's dozens more, many more.
- [44:02]
Dr. Jason Whiting
Jason, I'm glad you brought this issue up. That idea of safety. Does forgiving mean I'm going to subject myself to further abuse? Well, of course it doesn't. I love that Nephi gets to a point where, you know what? We gotta go. We have to leave this situation. And I can forgive. Also know that I have to leave this situation. I think I'm glad you're here because I'd love to hear you talk about that, where that decision has to be made. I can forgive, but I can't stay.
- [44:33]
John
That's exactly right. Let's talk a little bit about that. Let's first talk about in more typical situations. Then we'll talk about in less safe or dangerous situations. In more typical situations, through forgiveness, we learn to be less selfish. Remember Joseph Smith talked about how we need to annihilate our selfishness. One of the ways we do that is just by offering each other forgiveness and grace. As I said earlier, we all have differences. A lot of those differences aren't going to go away, whether that's how I handle money versus how my wife handles money. I was thinking about this the other day. I thought of a funny thing, which is my wife and I have a difference in how soon we think a dairy product has gone bad. I'll think it has a little more life in it. She's like, no, we got to get rid of that. I'll say, no, I think it's okay. I think we're still okay with this yogurt or this cheese or whatever. And I mean, a silly example, but that's just a classic difference. So even in healthy relationships, we learn to be cool with that. Couples, over time, again, in healthy relationships, learn to give each other grace. They say, that's just his style, that's her style, and it's not a big deal. In less healthy situations, people resent it and they sweep it under the rug, but don't really, and it becomes worse. But I will say, even from a secular perspective, I have colleagues who study forgiveness, but it always helps. Again, not even from a religious perspective, but it is linked to greater marital satisfaction and relationship longevity. Couples who have higher levels of forgiveness in their relationship, it's also linked to lower levels of conflict and higher levels of emotional closeness. Couples just give each other a break. They let go. They allow differences. That relates to this idea of being accepting, being flexible, which is, again, a maturity issue. Some things are never going to be solved. You're never going to change your spouse's personality or the way that they leave their socks on the floor or their style when you go to a party. We just all have different styles, and that's just how it is. There's some quotes here from Marjorie Pay Hinckley, Gordon B. Hinckley's wife. She said, early on I realized it would be better if we worked harder at getting accustomed to one another than constantly trying to change each other, which I discovered was impossible. There must be a little give and take and a great deal of flexibility to make a happy home. I love that quote. Let's just get accustomed to each other than trying to change each other. She's not talking about heavy duty, serious issues. She's just talking about the garden variety differences that sometimes couples get hung up on. They start to make big issues when they're not. It's just that maturity of saying, you are you, I'm me. Together we allow each other to be who we are. There's one more quote. Even good people wrestle with this. This is from Wendy Watson Nelson. Wendy Watson. She was a marriage and family therapist. She was actually my professor back in the 90s. I really learned a lot from her. She knows a lot about relationships. A really good person, Russell M. Nelson. We all know he's a really good person. They got married later in life. Two great people ready to get married. But she says that this is from President Nelson's biography by Sherry Dew. Sister Nelson says the beginning of our marriage was more difficult and required more from me and more turning to the Lord than anything in my life. Those struggles turned me even more to the Lord, which in turn strengthened our marriage. To create the kind of marriage we wanted required a lot of work, sacrifice, forgiveness and prayer from both of us in the beginning as we intertwined our lives to become one and it was worth it. That's a great reminder that of course their situation was unique and probably really complicated. But good people still work at and adjust to and pray and forgive and have some sacrifice. That's just what relationships are.
- [48:16]
Smith
My wife loves cats. I do not like cats. We compromised and we have three cats.
- [48:23]
Dr. Jason Whiting
Nice teenagers say to you. What?
- [48:26]
Smith
Oh yeah. Teenagers say that's not a compromise. I usually say you're not married.
- [48:32]
John
Like, yeah.
- [48:35]
Smith
What did you call it? Like a garden variety type of issue. I'm not going to change my wife's love of animals, so I might as well become accustomed to it. It's okay. We have a pot bellied pig. We have a lot of strange animals running around this house, including four teenage boys. We have a lot of them.
- [48:56]
John
This idea of growing and becoming more Christlike through forgiveness is one of the reasons God asks us to forgive repeatedly. 70 times 7. It implies that there's not a quota. Sometimes people do say, well, I've already given you three strikes and you're out. But I think in typical relationships we just work on things and we grow and we improve. And I will say it's easier to forgive when people are humble and when they are repentant. If they're asking for forgiveness, if they're saying they're sorry, if they're trying. Research actually confirms that too, that it's easier to forgive when I can see that you are understand my pain, that you understand why this is hurtful to me, that you've shown empathy. You're showing that you're going to try harder. It builds trust. In the best cases, both people are working on things and they're Improving, that's what helps relationships grow. However, if only one person is doing that, you have a different situation. That does happen sometimes where maybe there's not remorse, maybe there is aggression and things become damaging. Only one person is saying, I'm working on it and how can I be better? And they're trying, and the other person is not doing that. They're continuing to say, well, I don't need to change. You need to change. That's not a good situation. There are varying degrees of these problems, from mild to moderate to pretty severe. How does forgiveness apply in those situations? Let me start with a quote from Elder Holland back to John's question. It is important for some of you living in real anguish to note what he did not say, meaning the Savior. He did not say, you are not allowed to feel true pain or real sorrow from the shattering experiences you have had at the hand of another. Nor did he say, in order to forgive fully, you have to re enter a toxic relationship or return to an abusive, destructive circumstance. Forgiveness is not being forced to continue to feel pain or be blamed for your own mistreatment. Unfortunately, some people who are manipulative or abusive will twist this doctrine. They will say, well, you have to forgive me. They'll say, the greater sin is on you if you don't. They will say, God has forgiven me. Why can't you? That's not a sign of repentance, and it's not a healthy sign when somebody is misusing forgiveness like that. President Nelson has emphasized that as well. This was in one of President Nelson's Easter messages. He said, forgiving others does not mean condoning sinful or criminal behavior, and it certainly does not mean staying in abusive situations. Having said that, we can talk a little more about what forgiveness is and what it isn't. It's easier to forgive someone when they're accountable and they're apologetic. But it's not dependent on that because if it were, a lot of people would be left helpless to forgive because the other person isn't necessarily being accountable. In fact, I was just talking to a woman about a week and a half ago who's in a toxic relationship. It's quite manipulative. It's quite psychologically abusive. It's really ugly. This is a professional, sharp woman who she says, I know better, but I can't bring myself to get out of the situation until he admits that he is doing this to me, until he's being accountable, until he's apologizing. I said, I understand that impulse that you want justice, but I don't know if he's going to be willing or able to do that. Some are too caught up in their own denial and their own defense mechanisms. That's a sad situation. But in that situation, if somebody's waiting for that, it may or may not happen. It also doesn't mean to forgive someone, doesn't excuse what they've done, if that makes sense. It doesn't mean it was okay. This is where it starts to become, this issue of having faith and trust in God because He's the one that is the judge. We can leave it to Him. We can forgive, get out of a bad situation. We can forgive and set boundaries. Forgiveness is about healing and letting go. It's not necessarily about holding the other person accountable. That is something that God will take care of. It's not easy. I don't want to give that impression that you make this decision and you forgive and then you're good to go. It's a challenging process. That's a main point here too, is that it's probably going to take a lot of help from Heaven. We have to talk to our Heavenly Father. We have to work with the Savior and His Atonement. This relates to this really great talk that's referred to in the Come Follow me material for this week from Sister Yee. From Kristin Yee, it's Beauty for Ashes. It's a really powerful talk. She shares a story of her own struggles growing up in a home that she said was filled with some difficult and unhealthy circumstances. She refers specifically to her Father. She talks a lot about the work that it took, and she quotes President Nelson here about how the Savior can help. Here's President Nelson's through his infinite Atonement, you can forgive those who have hurt you and who may never accept responsibility for their cruelty to you. It is usually easy to forgive one who sincerely and humbly seeks your forgiveness. But the Savior will grant you the ability to forgive anyone who has mistreated you in any way. Then their hurtful acts can no longer canker your soul. And she continues, this is her comment now. She says, the Lord requires us to forgive for our own good, but he does not ask us to do it without his help, his love, his understanding. Through our covenants with the Lord, we can each receive the strengthening power, guidance, and the help we need to both forgive and to be forgiven. Please know that forgiving someone does not mean that you put yourself in a position where you will continue to be hurt. We can work toward forgiving someone and still feel Prompted by the spirit to stay away from them.
- [55:03]
Dr. Jason Whiting
Thank you, Jason. I thought Sister Ye was incredibly courageous to talk about that. There were probably thousands who were so grateful that she did. Sometimes there's the idea I have to stay at the risk of my own safety. Do you ever encounter that a lot?
- [55:22]
John
Sometimes people feel like because they have entered into a marriage, for example, and made a covenant, made a commitment, that they have to stay regardless. I would say when I interviewed at BYU for the job here at byu, one of the things that happens is you talk to a general authority about the job. I told this general authority that I study abuse and domestic violence. We talked about this idea that sometimes in the church, people either suffer in silence, not knowing that things are as unhealthy as they are, or that they feel like they are trapped and they have to stay because they made a commitment, or they made a covenant in the temple. He said people don't realize that when abuse is happening, when things have gotten that damaging, that that no longer is a celestial relationship. That's not a covenant relationship. People have broken covenants at that point. I will have that conversation with people at times. One of the things I will talk about is I'm a father of children who are married. I wouldn't want my child to stay in a situation where it was damaging to their dignity, to their spirituality, to their psyche. I don't think our Heavenly Father expects us to stay in damaging situations just because we made a commitment at one point. That one person now no longer is keeping that commitment to honor and to cherish and to love. I think it's a complex situation that every case is different. But as Sister Yee said and as President Nelson said, as Elder Holland said, forgiveness is about healing and letting go of. It's not about being forced to stay in a bad situation.
- [57:04]
Smith
Now, when someone says, you got to be more Christlike and forgive me, I don't think they've read the New Testament. There are plenty of times where Christ forgives someone but has some pretty firm boundaries. Like Nazareth. Remember the city of Nazareth, John? This is his hometown. That attempts to murder him, at least to what we know. He never goes back.
- [57:26]
Dr. Jason Whiting
Never went back again.
- [57:27]
Smith
He never went back. He refused to speak to Herod. He let Peter know when he had crossed a line a couple of times. The idea that Jesus doesn't have boundaries is not based in scripture.
- [57:40]
Dr. Jason Whiting
I like to mention to the young adults there's kind of a difference, I think, between a temple wedding and a celestial marriage. You can get married in the temple Then your life is working toward a celestial marriage.
- [57:56]
John
Yeah. In best case scenarios, both people are working towards that type of celestial relationship. They are apologizing and they're growing and they're repenting and they're trying to listen to each other. In other unhealthy situations, one or both are not. They are not taking accountability or they're saying or doing things that are damaging or they're saying the other person needs to change, but they're not going to change. In fact, that is a divorce predictor is this idea of not accepting influence from the other person. You see it all the time in abusive relationships. You see people saying, well, I don't really care that your mom is coming over. I'm not changing my plans. Or I don't really care that you want to go to that restaurant. I don't want to go. That's this idea that instead of compromise and being open, working things back and forth, whether it's around money or housework or intimacy, if one person's saying, it's not my problem, it's your problem, I'm not changing, that's not a healthy sign. It's also related to this idea of defensiveness or blame. Back to the importance of humility and accountability. It takes some difficult deliberation. Each case is different. There's not a blanket recommendation for what to do in difficult circumstances. But at times people need to protect themselves.
- [59:16]
Smith
Yeah.
- [59:17]
Dr. Jason Whiting
Well, I love this verse where the Lord says, I. The Lord will forgive whom I will forgive. It lets us know he's got better visibility. He knows how to read hearts. He sees the whole situation. He's saying, don't worry about my part of this, of you. It's required to forgive all men. I will forgive whom I'll forgive. He knows what he's doing. I like that we can trust that. It's impossible for me to forgive this person. You might say, that's right. It's impossible for you to do it. But with God, all things are possible. It may require that. It may require the only way you're going to be able to forgive is with God's help, as you said earlier. Jason.
- [60:03]
John
Yeah. I like how you said God has a different perspective than we do sometimes. In fact, a lot of times people do things, different, hurtful things because they themselves have had their own hurtful, damaging experiences. God can take that into account. He can sort through that in a way that we probably can't. I will say that sometimes is a factor in letting go of and forgiving. For example, when I'm talking to somebody about a parent who was difficult when they were young. We have the conversation about, well, what was your mother's or father's life like growing up? What were the challenges that they faced? It kind of helps put it into a little different perspective and might help them let go of some things. It doesn't excuse the things that happen. It doesn't take away the damage. But it can help someone soften a little bit and say, you know what, they had their own abuse history. I'm going to let God sort through that with them, and I'm going to ask God to help me to let go of those things as part of my forgiveness. Even if there's boundaries set Jason, I.
- [61:06]
Smith
Have a question that I'm not sure if there is an answer, but I would love to hear your thoughts. I know we want to spend more time in Section 64, but I'm fascinated by this. We talked about there's some times where people are people. We adjust, we accommodate. And we talked about sometimes there's a time to set a boundary and say, that's not okay. I'm going to remove myself from this situation. Is there a time where we can get those two mixed up? We've talked about the one where we think this is an abusive situation. There's probably a time to set a firm boundary. Is there a time that sometimes it goes the opposite direction, where I'm setting boundaries in places where I need to be a little more accommodating? I bring it up for this reason I post on Instagram frequently about boundaries. I think they're important. I know I'm going to get two responses. One is, thank you so much. This needs to be talked about more. The other is something like this. My daughter has cut me and my husband completely out of her life. We have no contact with our grandchildren. She calls it boundaries. Can you comment on that? Have you seen that?
- [62:15]
John
Yes. That is such a good question. I've seen the exact thing that you're describing, which is there is a time and place for setting boundaries. There's a lot to be said for safety. That's a carefully considered issue when people choose to do that. However, I hear the same stories that you just mentioned. I've had people come see me saying, my children have cut me off. I can't see them or the grandchildren. Obviously, every case is different. You have to be sensitive to that because sometimes things are very damaging. Having said that, I hear a lot of circumstances where I think that, to me, sounds like a case where there could be Reconciliation and discussion and interaction where there could be forgiveness and a relationship, even if maybe some boundaries need to be set. To cut off from a family relationship is a huge step. I have read articles and have heard stories from colleagues about this very issue where I think sometimes people are overstating or over setting boundaries or not forgiving even when there could be healthy relationships or at least functional relationships. One of the things that happens, you know, we talked about these phrases of seeking occasions. One of the things that's a little bit problematic about our current online culture is if somebody is seeking occasion or seeking flaws within their own family, they take that case to the world and they say, I have been abused and this has happened. Other people are likely to pile on and say, that sounds terrible. I don't think that's the place to adjudicate your family problems, because we said earlier, people are going to pile on and they're going to see what they the case they've been presented with. They're not going to see the whole situation. Sometimes people claim abuse. That's kind of a loaded term. I will say, as somebody who studies abuse, it's not always easy to disentangle some things. We no physical abuse, sexual aggression, but psychological abuse is sometimes psychological abuse, and sometimes it's just differences. Sometimes people are saying, you're abusing me, when really they're having some differences, or maybe they're being held accountable for something that they don't want to be accountable for. Sometimes people are not forgiving situations where forgiveness could apply and relationships could still be functional and be just fine. I think of that phrase of seeking occasion. I also think of the phrase of stirring up anger, because people do that when they post online. They're justifying their own behaviors by saying, look how terrible this thing is, and other people will pile on. But there's also another Book of Mormon phrase that might be relevant here, which is they refused to be comforted. Sometimes people are not open to forgiveness or reconciliation or comfort. That could happen in a healthy conversation. They're going to hang on to their grudges and they're going to nurture those and they're going to use those or weaponize those. I certainly don't want to be judgmental because there are situations where I think people have cut off from quite dangerous and ugly situations. But I think there's also plenty others that are bumpy and difficult, but certainly could be worked through.
- [65:30]
Smith
You just don't know the situation. I get a comment on Instagram, I obviously have no idea what's going on, man, I think if you've got a person who wants to be in your life, who wants to bless your life, it's hard.
- [65:44]
John
It's really hard. There are professional resources. There's a lot of family therapists out there. There are places that conversations, I think, could take place in a safe space to work through if somebody has hard feelings or somebody felt like something was done. Families are imperfect. Things are done and said and feelings are hurt and fights happen. I'm not trying to minimize any of that. But I will also say part of learning to be Christlike in who we are is learning to forgive and work through stuff when it's possible. When people want to. Back to that issue of if people are wanting to have a relationship, if they're wanting to work on it, that's a good sign. Even pretty difficult things can be forgiven in that circumstance. I work with people who have struggled with addictions or betrayals or affairs. Forgiveness can still happen depending on where people are at with those situations.
- [66:37]
Smith
Jason, do you think that somehow we have created, at least in the last, I don't know, 50, 100 years, 50 years, a generation of people who are, I don't want to say too offended, but did our grandparents, were they able to work out their differences better than we are? Because I can't go online and get all the justification I need to cut off a family member. Am I too sensitive?
- [67:03]
John
That's a great question. Yes, at some level, for some of the reasons I've said before, which is that it's easy to get our reasons justified, like you said online, it's easy to go and say, can you believe this thing happened? And everyone says, no, I can't believe that thing happened. We do it in our political discussions. It sells, it works. It also is sort of validating. I mentioned earlier that quote from Terry Warner. He has some discussions about forgiveness where he has talked about how even professional groups or sometimes therapy can reinforce this idea that you have been victimized and you should be indignant and you should be angry. Again, that's a tricky balance, because people genuinely are victimized at times. That's fair to say. People have terrible traumas and victimizations. That is, of course, true, and I never want to minimize that. But it's also true that sometimes then people lean into. How do I say that? The victimized, angry, retaliatory role. Instead of saying, I've been hurt, now I need to find healing, I need to move on, and I even need to forgive and choose healthier boundaries. That's different than I'm going to go talk to other people about how horrible men are or how horrible relationships are or families are or grandparents are or whatever it is. People can get into that kind of mindset. I mean, there's mother blame. People shift into a negative victim mindset. You have to have that conversation with yourself and with God and with those that you know and trust to sort through those things, because those are difficult conversations. There's genuine victims. But it's also true that from the victimized position, people can do some bad things in return. People, almost always, when they're hurting others say that they're the victim. So makes our jobs tricky. But that's the reality of it.
- [68:59]
Smith
You said earlier, my job isn't necessarily to change my spouse or anybody else. Maybe I'm trying to use my boundaries to get them to change something that they don't need to change.
- [69:12]
John
Yeah, maybe. But there's better ways to ask for change. Earlier, you know, we were talking about Sister Hinckley and others who say it's better to be flexible. That is true. But it doesn't mean that you can't have conversations and say, hey, when you said that thing that hurt my feelings, or when I did this big job and cleaned the house, then you trashed the kitchen, that bothered me. You can have those conversations. You can ask for understanding and even apologies. But that's different than becoming aggressive or setting boundaries and saying, I'm never talking to you again because you did that thing.
- [69:47]
Smith
Wow. Well, thanks for that. That's a sensitive topic. I mean, we're getting into relationships, the most intimate parts of people's lives. And here we are trying to be helpful.
- [69:57]
Dr. Jason Whiting
Some people, on the day they get married, they say, I want my spouse to stay just the way they are right now. The other one's thinking, okay, now I can mold them into what I really want. I love that we have the opportunity to have a covenant marriage, to have God be part of it. With that covenant relationship, we can grow and improve together. I love the way the gospel gives us that God is part of our marriage. I love that doctrine.
- [70:28]
John
It's essential, like our relationships are not an impediment. Those bumps and those differences, that is what it's all about. You think about the kids you have. It's interesting. You look around at your kids or your siblings and you say, boy, we all have very different personalities. I don't know if I would choose to hang out with this person if we just met at a party, but they're my sibling or they're my kids. So of course we're family. We work that out. It's kind of great. We have those challenging situations that lead to growth. They're not always easy, but it's part of becoming more like the savior is who is has all these virtues of kindness and patience and mercy. We, in our better moments, learn those things. A lot of that learning happens in family situations.
- [71:18]
Smith
Coming up in part two of this episode.
- [71:21]
John
This wasn't that long ago I said of all the things you've done to change, to get to this better place because it wasn't looking good, and people were saying, you guys got to get divorced, but here you are doing better. Everything isn't perfect, but you guys are doing way better. I said, what has made the biggest change for you? Immediately he said, the gospel of Jesus Christ. And I said, really? Tell me more about that. And he said, my relationship with the Savior, he got a little emotional, has helped me to soften and to see things that I was doing in ways that I was being hurtful that I didn't see before because I was still just in my own pain.
- [71:56]
Smith
Sam.