Doctrine & Covenants 77-80 Part 1 • Dr. Matthew Hinton • July 14 - July 20 • Come Follow Me

Summary

Podcast Summary: followHIM Episode: Doctrine & Covenants 77-80 Part 1 • Dr. Matthew Hinton
Release Date: July 9, 2025
Hosts: Hank Smith & John Bytheway
Guest: Dr. Matthew Hinton

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Introduction and Guest Introduction

In this episode of followHIM, hosts Hank Smith and John Bytheway welcome their guest, Dr. Matthew Hinton, to delve into Doctrine & Covenants sections 77 through 80. The discussion centers around Joseph Smith's revelations, the symbolism within the Book of Revelation, and their implications for understanding God's character and the Plan of Salvation.

Hank Smith [00:37]: "John, Matt, we are looking at sections 77 through 80 today... But we're moving on now."

Dr. Matthew Hinton [05:40]: "Dr. Matthew Hinton. He's been employed with seminaries and institutes... He has four beautiful daughters..."

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Exploring Doctrine & Covenants 77-80

The conversation begins with an exploration of Doctrine & Covenants (D&C) sections 77-80. The hosts reference previous discussions on sections 45 and 76, setting the stage for a deeper dive into these chapters.

John Bytheway [02:03]: "It's just crazy. Yeah. Why don't we just study the Scriptures today with Joseph Smith and the Lord as one does?"

Dr. Matthew Hinton [02:30]: "These are some rich, rich sections relative to some prophetic emphasis of President Nelson being prepared for the second coming in 77."

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Symbolism in the Book of Revelation

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the symbolic language of the Book of Revelation. The hosts draw parallels between the apocalyptic literature and Joseph Smith's revelations in the D&C.

John Bytheway [21:44]: "Apocalyptic, like we've been talking as kind of a language... It's in code. People... don't know what to do."

Hank Smith [17:45]: "Book of Revelation is very symbolic. If you don't know your Old Testament, you're going to be lost."

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Understanding God's Character and Motives

The trio delves into the attributes of God as revealed through these scriptures. They emphasize God's omniscience, benevolence, and His intentional involvement in the lives of His children.

John Bytheway [26:10]: "President Nelson would say, lazy learners... When you have that experience, you go back... It's the words that you're hearing from heaven."

Dr. Matthew Hinton [51:26]: "He is involved. I keep thinking of Elder Kieran saying, he is in relentless pursuit of us."

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Joseph Smith's Revelations and the Plan of Salvation

Dr. Hinton outlines how Joseph Smith's questions in D&C 77 serve as a framework for understanding the Plan of Salvation, revealing God's overarching design from beginning to end.

Hank Smith [63:01]: "When I look at section 77 initially, I might just see a bunch of random questions... But, Matt, as you're laying this out, I'm seeing the first four questions..."

John Bytheway [64:25]: "We've discovered it before, is every once in a while, there are things that are hidden in plain sight."

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Application to Current LDS Practices and Hope Amidst Challenges

The hosts connect the scriptural insights to contemporary LDS practices, such as temple building, missionary work, and the emphasis on gathering Israel. They also touch upon finding hope and joy amidst personal and collective challenges.

John Bytheway [66:18]: "We have temples and gathering, and President Nelson says... But God is working. A marvelous work and a wonder."

Hank Smith [43:03]: "How much nicer to have some expectations, to be able to look around and go, whoa, yep, that was supposed to happen."

Personal Stories Enhancing the Message

Hank shares a heartfelt story about his sister's struggles with diabetes, highlighting how a strong relationship with Jesus Christ can provide joy and resilience in the face of adversity.

Hank Smith [42:07]: "I have a sister who passed away two years ago... She just wasn't. She had a relationship with Jesus Christ and an understanding of a bigger picture..."

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Key Insights and Conclusions

Throughout the episode, the discussion underscores the importance of intensive scripture study, asking meaningful questions, and fostering a Christ-centered approach to understanding God's revelations.

Dr. Matthew Hinton [66:48]: "It's always been there, but you've never seen it before. We just saw a sequence, an orderliness. I like this word, sometimes an elegance to some of the ways that God reveals things."

John Bytheway [45:07]: "We believe in God, the Eternal Father, in His Son, Jesus Christ."

The hosts conclude by appreciating the structured and purposeful nature of Joseph Smith's revelations, encouraging listeners to engage deeply with the scriptures to uncover hidden truths and gain a comprehensive understanding of God's plan.

John Bytheway [66:35]: "We have an outline of the gospel, the simplicity of the gospel. This is beautiful."

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Notable Quotes

• John Bytheway [02:03]: "Why don't we just study the Scriptures today with Joseph Smith and the Lord as one does?"

• Dr. Matthew Hinton [05:40]: "He's trying to help these saints really come to grips with who he is, what his ultimate goals are."

• Hank Smith [26:10]: "Intense scripture study is like going to the gym... It can be difficult. It's so much easier to grab my phone and scroll."

• John Bytheway [28:31]: "President Nelson says, lazy learners."

• Hank Smith [58:50]: "He looks to see a lion, but he doesn't see a lion."

• John Bytheway [62:16]: "These are not random questions. They're an outline of the gospel, the simplicity of the gospel. This is beautiful."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of followHIM offers listeners a profound exploration of Doctrine & Covenants sections 77-80, intertwining historical context, symbolic interpretation, and personal application. Through the insightful contributions of Dr. Matthew Hinton and the engaging dialogue between Hank and John, the episode provides a comprehensive understanding of the scriptures and their relevance to both ancient and modern-day members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

For more resources and show notes, visit followhim.co. Stay connected with followHIM on YouTube, Instagram, and Facebook.

Transcript

[Hank Smith]

Coming up in this episode on Follow Him.

[John Bytheway]

I look at these verses and I think there is so much going on that's amazing. We had temples and gathering and President Nelson says in the last conference that we have spiritual momentum and more youth going out. He's announced 200 temples since he's become a prophet. We look at the world sometimes. We can get so lost in the scary. But God is working. A marvelous work and a wonder.

[Hank Smith]

Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith. I am your host. I'm here with my co host, John, by the way, who will speak in our ears the words of wisdom. Doctrine covenants, section 78, verse 2. Now, John, it's talking about Joseph Smith here, but it could be talking about you as well. Speak in our ears the words of wisdom.

[Matt Hinton]

I hope so. I repeat words that I've heard other people speak because I'm not that wise, but I know people who are.

[Hank Smith]

You are the wise old sage up on the hill. We go to seek your advice.

[Matt Hinton]

Emphasis on the word old.

[Hank Smith]

John, we are joined today by Dr. Matt Hinton, a very good friend of mine. Matt, welcome to Follow Him.

[John Bytheway]

Thanks. I'm excited to be with you two today. Thanks for the opportunity.

[Hank Smith]

Oh, man, I love that voice. I've known it since the 1900s. John, Matt, we are looking at sections 77 through 80 today. We just finished with a major section of the Doctrine Covenants. We talked about it with both Dr. Dirkmaat in our Voices of the Restoration episode last week and Dr. Fluman in our lesson on section 76. It was huge. But we're moving on now. John, when you think Book of Revelation, what comes to mind? Because that's how we start in section 77.

[Matt Hinton]

Yeah, it's like a different language almost. I think of beasts and horns and many eyes. But look at section 77. Like, who gets to just have a Q and A with the Lord like that?

[John Bytheway]

It's just crazy. Yeah.

[Hank Smith]

Why don't we just study the Scriptures today with Joseph Smith and the Lord as one does?

[Matt Hinton]

Yeah, as we often do.

[Hank Smith]

Matt, as you've looked at these few sections, what do you want to do today?

[John Bytheway]

I'm so excited. These are some rich, rich sections relative to some prophetic emphasis of President Nelson being prepared for the second coming in 77. When we talk about the Book of Revelation, you're talking about a book that it was written by John the Revelator to a group of people in the ancient churches where Joseph opens up in chapter four of the Book of Revelation. We're talking second Coming and some of the preparations for the last days. That's what Joseph starts asking some questions about. How fun to be able to sit down and say, heavenly Father, what does this mean? Yeah, no wonder Joseph can say it's the plainest book ever. Because if you could just ask God and he gives you an answ, then it's pretty plain. So I'm excited to explore just some of what Joseph experienced there. I'm also excited with doctrine and Covenant 78, looking at the united firm. What the Lord was really trying to do there, not just at that time, but overall and what that means for us. One of the things I've loved about studying the Scriptures, my job is training teachers, trying to help teachers learn what the problems are that the Scriptures are trying to solve that the Lord's trying to solve for us. Exploring some of that. In 78, you both got a son going out on a mission. John, you've got missionaries. I've had a couple. Some of those missionary calls and what that looks like. In 79 and 80, we're going to see some things that the Lord wants to reveal about Himself to us. We'll recognize and talk about some of the things President Nelson's trying to prepare us for.

[Hank Smith]

Fantastic. I am looking forward to this. I get to teach the Book of Revelation in some of my classes at byu. John is able to say things with symbols that I found it to be really powerful. Maybe I can get a chance to talk about that. Yeah.

[John Bytheway]

And as we know, John's really the only one that's been allowed to write it.

[Hank Smith]

Yeah.

[John Bytheway]

Yeah. What we have is really unique to John the Revelator and the opportunity to paint a picture for us, an allegory of how to prepare for the last days and what the Savior's role is going to be in that.

[Hank Smith]

It reminds me a bit of what we talked about two weeks ago, John, when we said it's bigger on the inside. The Book of Revelation might look like, oh, I'm not going to understand this. It's way outside my realm. No step inside, start to look around, start to learn the language. You're gonna say, wow, there's a lot more here than I thought. Now, I said earlier, John, that I've known Matt a long time. I've known him longer than I've known my wife. Matt and I go back almost three decades. That's about as long as anybody I keep in touch with these days. You go back any further and people know me a little too well. But Matt is new to our Follow him, audience. Can you give us a bio for him, John? And I might throw in a couple of details of things I know.

[Matt Hinton]

Yeah, please do. Dr. Matthew Hinton. He's been employed with seminaries and institutes. We used to call it CES. Now we say SNI.

[Hank Smith]

Right.

[Matt Hinton]

With seminaries and institutes since 2000. Turn of the century. He is a pre service trainer. I don't know about you guys, but I think pre service is a church jargon. I've never heard anybody else talk about pre service. I wonder if there was a pre service pre existence. TR training. He works with BYU students who are seeking to become seminary institute teachers. His assignments have included a seminary teacher, of course, and a principal assistant area director. He received a bachelor's degree from BYU in marriage, Family and Human Development, a master's from Utah State in Family and Human Development, a doctorate from the American College of Education in Educational Leadership. He enjoys the outdoors, at pickleball and being with his family. He served his mission in Panama, Panama City and met his sweetheart at byu. They have four beautiful daughters. They live in Payson. Matt, we're really glad to have you. We should have a pre service pre training for pre. Follow him.

[John Bytheway]

I think we had that today, didn't we?

[Matt Hinton]

Yeah, we kind of did before we pushed record. We've been here for a minute.

[Hank Smith]

Yeah, we've been here for a while. But I've enjoyed it because I got two of my friends here and John too, so.

[Matt Hinton]

I think he means John the Revelator. Which one's your friend?

[Hank Smith]

Yeah, John. When you know someone for almost three decades, you get a sense for who they really are. Matt Hinton is good to the core all the way through and through. He and I have been in different circumst together. Our very first time working together was a program called E F Y. It's now called fsy, as we all know, but it was E F Y. We worked together back in Kansas. Lawrence, Kansas. I still remember like it was yesterday, Matt.

[John Bytheway]

It was a great time. Working with youth. There's nothing better.

[Hank Smith]

Yep. Anyone who is at that Lawrence, Kansas session needs to message us on YouTube today so we can have a reunion from the 1900s. Matt is a disciple of Christ through and through. His wife is just a step above him.

[John Bytheway]

About four steps above me.

[Hank Smith]

That's where she's at.

[Matt Hinton]

Like all of us.

[John Bytheway]

Yeah.

[Hank Smith]

Hey, John, I'm going to read from the Come follow me manual. Let's get started. Let's have some fun. The lesson is called I will lead you along. It's section 77 80. As we talked about less than two years after the Church of Jesus Christ was restored, it had more than 2,000 members like a steak and was growing quickly. In March 1832, Joseph Smith met with other church leaders to discuss church business, the need to publish revelations, purchase land to gather on, and care for the poor. To meet these needs, the Lord called on a small number of church leaders to form the United Firm, a group that would join their efforts to advance the cause of the Lord in these areas. But even in such administrative matters, the Lord focused on the things of eternity. Ultimately, the purpose of a printing press or a storehouse, like everything else in God's kingdom, is to prepare his children to receive a place in the celestial world and the riches of eternity. And if those blessings are hard to comprehend right now, in the midst of the busyness of daily life, he reassures us, be of good cheer, for I will lead you along. I love it. Even in administrative matters, the Lord is saying, let me teach along the way. Let me show you some things you may have not thought of. With that. Matt, how do you want to go about this? I know all of these sections are different from one another.

[John Bytheway]

Yeah, There is a little bit of a common theme, though, in the terms of the Lord leading us somewhere. The Lord is trying through, obviously with section 76 that you just talked about, that landmark vision that altered the way the saints thought about the celestial kingdom and the other kingdoms and what the Lord is providing for us, where he wants us to end up, what the main goal that Heavenly Father has for us. This is a section where we combine some spiritual and temporal to really highlight the Lord's real purpose in what he's doing in the world today. We can see it today versus back then with the purpose of the restoration was to bring his children back to Him. We'll see this leading along in temporal and spiritual affairs. I don't know if you heard this, but I heard this in the last general conference. The need to have a relationship with the Savior. Jesus Christ the Savior is trying to create ways where we can know him better and understand him better. And I think that's what he's trying to help these saints really come to grips with is who he is, what his ultimate goals are. And I hope that's what we do. Do you want to just jump in?

[Hank Smith]

Let's do it.

[Matt Hinton]

I like the focus you're giving us. What is the Savior trying to reveal about Himself in these sections? That way, even if one's about the Book of Revelation and one's about the united firm. We still have a common goal. Looking for where's the Savior in this? I appreciate that.

[John Bytheway]

One of the skills I try to teach our teachers is how to be Christ centered in our approach. Christ centered teaching requires Christ centered learning. How do you learn about the Savior from His words? What is it that he's trying to teach? One of the things I'd like to do today is if sections 77, 80 were the only books of Scripture that we had, only chapters, we didn't have any other scripture, what would they reveal about the Savior, about Heavenly Father and their character and their attributes? I want everyone just to think about this. I'm going to frame it this way as we study today. What do you learn about the Savior's mercy, protection, strength, power, desires, motives? What do we learn about his motives in everything that he's doing in these sections? If we put it into that context. And when you get to 77, we're talking about the book of Revelation, Apocalypse, which means to reveal. What is he trying to reveal? Well, he's trying to reveal himself. If you go to Revelation, chapter one, verse one, we need to do a little background here. Revelation 1:1, the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him to shew unto his servants. These things must shortly come to pass. Dr. Frederick, you guys have had him on here before. He has a great article if people want to look at it. We maybe connect it to the show notes or something here. But interpretive Approaches to the Book of Revelation by Nicholas Frederick. He makes this statement as one of the three things to keep in mind. Always remember the first words of the book, the revelation of John, a servant of God, which was given unto him, Jesus Christ. Then he just says, this is precisely what John is doing for his readers, pulling back the veil, revealing to us who Jesus Christ really is. The name Jesus appears rather sparingly in the Book of Revelation around a dozen times. But his influence, his importance lies behind every verse. That's what we're going to see and that's what Heavenly Father and the Savior is going to reveal to Joseph. Here is let me teach you about who I am, who my son is, and what we really want to do in the world and what the restoration of the Gospel really means. Just giving a little background. Joseph. Back in section 45, they'd been translating early on in the history of the Church. Within months of the restoration, they're translating the Bible. In Section 45, he's told, Stop translating the Old Testament, start translating the New Testament. The context of that in section 45 is in verse 60, says, and now behold, this is Doctrine and Covenants 45, 60. Now behold, I say unto you, it shall not be given unto you to know any further concerning this chapter. And he's referring to Matthew 24, this revelation. He's seeking to understand this chapter where the apostles go to Jesus and say, when are you coming again? He says, you won't know anything further concerning this chapter until the New Testament be translated. And in all these things shall be made known. Joseph starts translating the New Testament. He goes until 1833. But in 1832, in March, that's when we're to this point where Joseph is getting to the Book of Revelation. He's had some visions that 46, 76, 77, 86, all come from his translation of the New Testament. This is probably received between March 4 and March 20 is what scholars have come up with. If it's towards the latter end of that, within five days, Joseph is going to be dragged out of his home in Hiram, Ohio, and beaten. And Sidney rigdon, that's on March 25, 76, came in early in February. What's happened is it's really altered what people have thought. This restoration was in their minds, many of them a restoration of the New Testament Church. What God is showing is that this is way bigger than just this is the new and everlasting covenant. This is much larger than these early saints even thought about. Many of them struggle with that, which is why they turn to attacking Joseph. That's where we get to 77. Now, before we jump into 77, I really want to remind us of the framework here. What do we learn? What is the Savior trying to teach us about Himself? As we study section 77, we probably need to go to chapter four, because this is where he's at. If you have Revelation Chapter four, I don't know about you, but man, I need to do this more. In my personal Scripture study, Robert Millett said that so many revelations were received between 1831 and 1833 because Joseph had this intensive study of the Scriptures where he's asking questions and God's answering him. This is why Section 77 comes. This is why most of our sections have come, because we are intensively studying the Scriptures, trying to figure out what the Lord wants for us. I could probably do a much better job at my Scripture study if I really went to the Lord with some questions. Verse 1, Revelation, chapter 4. Let's start there because I think it has to paint a picture for what he's asking about. As he's translating the New Testament. The Book of Revelation is like John said earlier, it's a new language. This is like speaking a different genre of we've gone to a foreign country, we don't understand the language and it's on purpose. Because there's some things that John's trying to help us with relative to our own spirituality to discern as he's painting these pictures and hide some things from people who aren't sensitive and spiritually sensitive enough too.

[Hank Smith]

As I've studied the Book of Revelation, I've noticed a couple of things. One, very symbolic. Two, if you don't know your Old Testament, the Book of Revelation, I don't want to say John's a plagiarist, but there's a lot of Old Testament in here. If you don't know that Old Testament very well, you're going to be lost. I use this example with my students. If I were to say in the Book of Revelation, if I was using the Book of Mormon as my basis, but someone hasn't ever read the Book of Mormon. If I said I saw 2,060 soldiers go to war, someone who hasn't read the Book of Mormon would be confused. What does he mean? But if someone's read the Book of Mormon, they're. I know what he's talking about. He's talking about the stripling warriors. It's the same way with the Book of Revelation. You have to know your Old Testament in order to understand it.

[John Bytheway]

Book of Revelation is an analogous history of the world from the beginning to the very end. This new and everlasting covenant that started in the Old Testament, that started from the premortal life that's being restored. He uses the symbols from Ezekiel. I know John's a big proponent of the footnotes. You look at these footnotes, he connects us to the Old Testament prophecies and visions.

[Hank Smith]

If you don't know those, it's okay. If you don't, I don't want anyone. Oh man. I haven't memorized the Old Testament. You're okay. Neither of us 3. Another point is understanding the context, the people John is speaking to. We can liken these scriptures to us, but this is first century Christianity who is under serious persecution by the people around them. John is trying to give a message of encouragement to those first century Christians. Of course we're going to liken it to us. That's what Joseph does here. But we don't want to forget who he's talking to.

[John Bytheway]

Yeah. Chapters two and three are all these letters to These seven churches, whether it's seven or all the congregations, whether that's symbolic or literal. But these ancient saints who need some hope are trying to figure out how to live their lives in a world that's highly sexualized. You think about the Hellenization of everything, the challenges that they're facing, trying to stay moral. The Lord's through John saying, there is a way through this as you stay connected to the Savior. And we'll talk about this in a minute in chapter five. But the Savior's going to win here. I think of Dr. Frederick who says, if I could summarize, this whole thing is Jesus wins. Yeah, right.

[Hank Smith]

He's going to show us how great God is in the beginning. He's going to show us how great God is at the end in the final product. Then the middle gets dark. But if you know the beginning and you know the end, you can make it through the middle.

[John Bytheway]

That's what I think is so fascinating about 77. Joseph is under some difficulty right now with some of the reports that are out there. They're spreading rumors about Joseph and some of these challenges that are happening. I think this is a timely revelation for him to say, let me teach you about myself. What's going to happen here and what my main purpose is. That's what we're going to find in 77.

[Matt Hinton]

When I first heard the word apocalypse, I'm thinking somebody out there might be going, what's that phrase you guys are using, Apocalyptic? Well, when you hear apocalypse, I've heard, oh, that's like a big final battle or something. Maybe we can explain a little bit more. Apocalypse comes from this idea of end times. But apocalyptic, like we've been talking as kind of a language. Hank, you mentioned the Old Testament. Would you say Daniel is in apocalyptic.

[Hank Smith]

At least the second half? Yep.

[Matt Hinton]

When we're talking about apocalyptic as a language, Daniel's one of those. You mentioned Ezekiel. How would you guys characterize. Apocalyptic is like wild, fanciful symbols?

[Hank Smith]

Well, it wouldn't been wild to them, but it is wild to us.

[John Bytheway]

They would have understood this. Yeah, this would have been a language they spoke.

[Hank Smith]

Pretty normal to get a letter like this from a church leader.

[Matt Hinton]

I remember I took a class in college called Business writing, and this professor was. You need to be direct, honest, and clear. You deny the listener the right to misunderstand. If I find one typo in your final project, it's an F. It needs to be so clear and so concise. Seriously has to be so clear and concise because it's business Writing. I always tell my students, Isaiah did not take this class. We would say, those who wrote apocalyptic did not take this class. It's a different way of writing. My Book of Revelation professor was Richard Draper. I loved what he said. He said, if you're going to write something super important and you don't want anybody to tamper with it, you write it in code. That's how he introduced the idea of apocalyptic to us, was it's in code. People, they don't know what to do. Should I take some of the horns off or one of the eyes or what do I do? This symbol, it has remained pretty intact from what I've read, but it's in code. I love that 77 is. Okay, here's this code. I have some questions about this book written in apocalyptic code.

[John Bytheway]

Even some of the answers that are given, we still have to. Yeah, it's like, okay, it's figurative and it's literal because it is a symbolic language. If you wanted to tie it into the way the Savior, one of the reasons he taught in parables, if you have eyes to see and ears to hear, then you can see what the Lord's trying to do. But there's some of that with John, probably that there's a code here. Joseph gets to ask some questions and say, okay, help me break this code. Some of it's clear, some of it's still murky.

[Hank Smith]

Yeah. If I was going to write a letter to both of you and I wanted to give you a lot of encouragement in dealing with difficulty, I didn't want anyone to tamper with it. I'd use something that the three of us understand that other people don't understand. I could speak Book of Mormon to you. If someone hasn't read the Book of Mormon, they might be really lost. I think he does the same thing with the Old Testament also here. I wonder what you both think about this. When I run into something like Section 77, I think of one of my favorite statements, John. I've said it probably a dozen times on here from Richard L. Evans. He said, it is good to be faithful. It is better to be faithful and competent. I think what Joseph is trying to show us is we're faithful. But I want to understand these things. I want to be able to read Scripture and read it in a responsible way, getting to the intent of the author and what the Lord is hoping that I'll find. Maybe section 77 is an example to all of us. Like you said, Matt, is get into the scriptures, get some questions and get.

[John Bytheway]

Those Answered God is leaving us answers how he has worked with his children from the very beginning until now. Some of what's there and why we have it is because he's saying, this is the problem they were encountering. This is the issues that the early church was having. These are the challenges that they were dealing with. And this is how I helped them through my apostles. This is how I helped them. There's something to that. With every chapter, the intent of the inspired author was to leave a record of how God solves problems for us, for them at the time, but for us too. The need to go to the Scriptures with the right questions and understanding who he's talking to and the problem that he's trying to solve and what does that look like for us and how does that solution translate? That's a fun way to look at Scripture too.

[Hank Smith]

Maybe this is a silly analogy, but I sometimes think of intense scripture study as like going to the gym. I don't really want to at first, but I'm glad when I do. If I can get into the habit, it's a whole lot easier. If I can just get into the daily habit of getting into the scriptures saying, I really want to understand. It's a mind stretching experience. It can be difficult. It's so much easier to grab my phone and scroll. So much easier. Rather than getting into the gym and doing hard things. Because as you're reading the book of Revelation, it's going to stretch your mind a little bit.

[John Bytheway]

President Nelson would say, lazy learners. Yeah, I think he used that phrase. And you've all had this experience where you've asked the right question and you've heard the voice of the Lord speak to you through Scripture. When you have that experience, you go back. It becomes less about the words on the page and more about the words that you're hearing from heaven. The Bible dictionary says you pray in Christ's name. When his words abide in you, then it is possible for things to ask for God to grant. How do we get his words in us in ways that connect us to Him? That's how we get led along.

[Hank Smith]

I believe that same thing. I feel a little bit hypocritical because my employment is to read scripture to try to understand it. I don't think anyone out there listening should be beating themselves up saying, oh, I'm just a terrible scripture reader. I think I actually would be too if it wasn't part of my job. But I do, because it is part of my employment. I have found the joy of sitting down with Scripture, really trying to understand, letting my mind really search and think through, go through storylines and doctrines, connecting across chapters, finding sister chapters. It's been a joyous experience. President Hinckley was the only one who could say it becomes a love affair with the word of God.

[John Bytheway]

To your point, too, with the listeners out there, I found that God is really anxious to jump out of heaven and let people know that whatever effort we'll give, whatever energy we'll put, the Lord jumps out of heaven to let us know that he recognizes that effort, too.

[Hank Smith]

Yeah, I think he's anxious to bless.

[John Bytheway]

Well, should we get into 77 some?

[Hank Smith]

Let's do it.

[John Bytheway]

John, you want to take verse 1, 2 and maybe. Hank. 3 and 4. Okay.

[Matt Hinton]

Revelation 4:1. After this I looked, and behold, a door was opened in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was, as it were, of a trumpet talking with me, which said, come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit. And behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

[John Bytheway]

Pretty remarkable verses. A door's opened. John is given a look. I mean, imagine you walk into a room and the door's open and you peek in. Now you're in the throne room of God. That's what we're seeing here. He sees one sitting on throne. So there we can go three and four.

[Hank Smith]

You got it. He's already borrowed from Isaiah. I will show you these things which must be hereafter. If you're an Old Testament reader, you go, oh, wait, I've heard that before. Verses 3 and 4. And he that sat was to look upon, like a Jasper and a sardine stone. And there was a rainbow round about the throne in sight, like unto an emerald. And round about the throne were four and 20 seats. And upon those seats I saw four and 20 elders sitting clothed and in white raiment. And they had on their heads crowns of gold.

[John Bytheway]

And I'm going to read 5 and 6 here. And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God. And before the throne there was a sea of glass likened to a crystal. And in the midst of that throne, and round about the throne were four beasts full of eyes before, behind. Okay, let's just take those six verses. If you're anybody, what questions do you have? If you're anyone in the world and you read those six verses, what questions come to mind here?

[Hank Smith]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Even if you're an informed scripture reader, you're going to go, I don't know what a Jasper is or a sardine stone.

[John Bytheway]

What's the rainbow?

[Hank Smith]

Yeah, 24's gotta be symbolic. 24. Do you actually see 24 people? What is a sea of glass like?

[John Bytheway]

Right? Yeah, that's exactly what Joseph does. Joseph is. He's reading these verses. I don't know why he didn't ask about some of the other things. You could go verse by verse and say, okay, well, what is this and what is this and what is this? But for some reason, Joseph picks particular things to ask about in Doctrine Covenant 77. What's the first thing he wants to know about verse one?

[Hank Smith]

It's a question. What is the sea of glass spoken of in the fourth chapter six verse of Revelation?

[John Bytheway]

So I don't know if that would have been my first question, but it's the question Joseph asked. He sees God sitting up on a throne surrounded by these Jasper and sardine stone and emerald and this thunderings and lightning. These seven lamps that are probably symbolic of could be the seven churches. If you look at the footnote there of the seven spirits. You got the seven servants of the seven churches from chapter one that we're referring back to here in the letters. We'll find out in a minute. The 24 elders there, because he asked that question. Also, it's interesting that he asks about this sea of glass like a crystal. Now let's go back and think about if these were the only chapters of Scripture that we had. What is the Savior trying to reveal about Himself as we get the answer to this? If we're thinking about what President Nelson's been trying to focus on the last conference, he says, I don't know when the Second Coming's coming, but what I do know is I'm being impressed that we need to prepare for that great and terrible day. Right. What is the Savior trying to reveal about Himself that would give us hope that this is going to be a day that we're going to overcome? What do we learn about him that would give us confidence in building this relationship with Him? We get that from the answer. The answer here is, what's the answer to this?

[Hank Smith]

The answer is it is the earth in its sanctified, immortal and eternal state. You know what I love here, Matt, is the Lord doesn't do exactly what we all just did. If Joseph asked me this question, I would say, okay, well, Joseph, listen, we've got to understand the nature of apocalyptic literature. We have to go Back to the history of the first century. The Lord doesn't do that. I like to watch him as a teacher. I like to pick up on the way the Lord teaches. He uses simple, succinct answers. It is the earth in its sanctified, immortal and eternal state. Now, Joseph has his bearings. He has somewhere to start from. A good teacher does this. Let me give you something that you can clue in on, something that you can say, oh, I get that. Let's reach out from there a little bit at a time.

[John Bytheway]

Yeah. If you think about that, in that footnote there, he's actually saying, let me help you begin with the end in mind. And if you were to put it in the words of President Nelson, you would say, let me help you think celestial. He says, the sea of glass that God's sitting upon is the earth in its celestial state in its glorified form. But there's more to it than that. Joseph then teaches a little bit more about this. When you get into section 130, there's some other details in section 130 that help us. What is the Savior trying to teach us about his character, the Father's character? What is it about them that allows us to trust and have confidence in what he's revealing to us? Section 131 9. These are sections where Joseph is correcting some false doctrine that's been taught about this idea that the Lord dwells in our hearts. And it's an old sectarian notion. The context of this is really interesting to me. Look at verse one. When the Savior shall appear, we shall see him as he is. We shall see that he is a man like ourselves. Then this scripture we always quote, but we usually quote it out of context because we're talking about the same sociality which exists among us, but it's actually in the context of a relationship with Jesus Christ. The same sociality that exists among us here will exist among us there. Only it will be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy. This idea that the Savior, we're going to have the relationship we're building with him, that same sociality that we create here will continue. Yeah. Now he goes on and says some other things about this. Look at verse. Let's just go 4, 5, 6, and 7. You want to pick up there, Hank?

[Hank Smith]

Yeah. Joseph asks a question here that he's going to answer. Verse 4. He says, here's the question. Is not the reckoning of God's time, angels, time, prophet's time, and man's time according to the planet on which they reside. Yes. But there are no angels who minister to this earth, but those who do belong or have belonged to it. The angels do not reside on a planet like this earth, but they reside in the presence of God on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present and future, and are continually before the Lord. Verse 8. The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim.

[John Bytheway]

The answer we got from the Lord was, it's the earth and its sanctified and mortal eternal state. Then. But Joseph adds to it later. We learn some things. The Lord adds to this, that this is a great Urimum and Thummim. In that Urim and Muthumim. You look back at verse seven that the past, present and the future are all seen through this. God sits on this throne on a great Urimim and Thummim that allows him to know well because of who he is. He knows all things are present before Him. There's no time. There's no past, present and future. He knows it all because he sees it all. When I think about what that teaches me, about the character of God and the character of the Savior. Here we worship beings who know the beginning from the end, who have a plan that is immutable and unchangeable and unconquerable. Elder Renlund talked about sometimes when we think about the Second Coming, we think about this apocalyptic writing. You think about the beasts and the scary things Elder Renlund talked about in the last conference, that sometimes we think about the Second Coming with fear and trepidation. But the person in control of it all is someone who knows the beginning from the end. He knows how to prepare our state. Now you think about the opposite. Paul says we look through a glass darkly. He says we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then shall I know even as I am known. Our sea of glass, our Urim and Thummim, isn't as clear because we're not where God is. I see what's going on right now. I see what's going on in the moment. I see what's going on in my life, the circumstances I'm in. I think this is why President Nelson says if we focus on the Savior, it's more important than the circumstances of our lives. Because his glass is clear and pure and he knows the beginning from the end. He reveals something about his character in this verse that should give us all confidence and hope. One example of God preparing for this. And we Talked about the 116 pages, the loss of those. This all happens kind of at the same time. God's saying to Joseph, hey, I don't think that's a good idea to let Martin take these. Hey, Nephi, you should probably write another record.

[Matt Hinton]

Amazing.

[John Bytheway]

No, Joseph, I don't know. That's a good idea. Hey, Nephi, let's really put another. That's the capacity of the God we worship who sits on a throne on a sea of glass. That's a urimum thummim that all things before him, that all things are taken care of because of him. That's what that verse reveals to me about the Savior.

[Hank Smith]

Here's the Lord talking to both Nephi, Mormon and Joseph at the same time. All different time periods.

[John Bytheway]

Right.

[Hank Smith]

Here's Mormon in 400 AD. Here's Nephi in 600 BC. Here's Joseph in 1827. He's saying, that's a terrible idea. I love that. Matt. That's a bad idea. Nephi, you better write that, Mormon. You better put that in Joseph.

[John Bytheway]

That's a really bad idea.

[Hank Smith]

Nephi, you on that, Mormon. You putting that in. That is a God you can worship.

[John Bytheway]

Yeah. What kind of hope does that provide that our God sits on that throne with that capability? You think about the listeners that are out there that are dealing with difficult things, difficult challenges. That glass seems so dark. How do you connect to the Savior in a way you can see through his glass? My sister had this perspective on life. She shouldn't have. I don't know where she got it from. I think it was just her faith. But I have a sister who passed away two years ago. She got diabetes when she was 8. Didn't really take care of it. All through her teenage years, she's in the hospital and out of the hospital, and it's doing all kinds of damage to her body. Those who know what diabetes does, it is terrible. By the time she is in her early 20s, she's starting to take care of herself a little better. She goes on a mission, serves in Fresno, California. She has to come home early because she gets diabetic retinopathy. That's where the retina detaches. She comes home, she gets a glass eye. She's got this glass eye that they make it so it contracts. Eventually her other eye starts to go out too. Eventually, she's totally blind. She decides that she's going to write books. She starts self publishing some books known as the Blind Author. And she ends up having Two kids getting married. She loses her kidneys. My brother gives her a kidney. A few years after that, she ends up having to get a pancreas. She's no longer diabetic at the time, but the damage is done to her body. All the things that this sister goes through, and yet I've never met a more joyful, happy, conquer the world person. It just always boggled my mind. I quite understand. She'd have every reason to be bitter and angry and upset. She just wasn't. She had a relationship with Jesus Christ and an understanding of a bigger picture, a thinking, celestial picture that didn't get her mired down in some of the challenges she was going through. I think she trusted in a God who knew the beginning and the end. That's hard to do sometimes you think about when you're going through it. It's not easy to think that way.

[Hank Smith]

A couple of things here. One, Isaiah 55, my ways are not your ways. My thoughts are not your thoughts. He might add, I see things you don't see. You cannot behold with your natural eyes for the present time the design of your God. You can't see what I see. Matt, you've shown us section 77 and section 130. I noticed that those are 10 years apart. One thing we can see is that Joseph Smith, he studies the Scriptures. I mean, look at this. He's still talking about this same idea that he was asking about in section 77. Ten years later. It's grown. He's learned more about it. He's applying it in different ways. Second, the Book of Revelation is helping the saints of the first century understand God. It's helping Joseph and The saints of 1832 understand God, which in turn is helping the saints of 2025 learn about God. That's the incredible thing about Scripture.

[John Bytheway]

Let's go back to the source here.

[Hank Smith]

John is writing to these seven congregations who are all struggling both internally and externally. The very first message is, we have a God who knows everything, who sees everything, who sees the past, the present and the future. You are in very good hands. We can talk about things, but from the outset, we are in very capable hands.

[John Bytheway]

I love that God expands our vision to say, I've got you. I've always had you, and I'll always have you. If you'll have me, I've got you. And I always have. Whether it's the church in ancient of days, to my sister, to whatever our listeners are going through right now, if you'll have me, I have you.

[Hank Smith]

We've just done. Two verses of 77. The few verses in Revelation, you can stop and say, okay, I'm struggling, I'm hurting, I'm confused. But it comes back to that first principle, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, in His Son, Jesus Christ. I love the way you started this, Matt. It's not just about understanding the book of Revelation. It's, let's get back further to the Lord's character.

[John Bytheway]

Yeah.

[Matt Hinton]

What I see is he's not a standoffish, disinterested God that created us and walked away and thought, I wonder what's going to happen over there? But he is involved. I keep thinking of Elder Kieran saying, he is in relentless pursuit of us. He's an involved God right here. What we're learning without him saying is, I'll reveal things to you. I'll tell you if you ask, we have a God who's willing to talk to us. How nice. Instead of saying, oh, the Second Coming is going to be great and terrible, but I'm not telling you anything. How much nicer to have some expectations, to be able to look around and go, whoa, yep, that was supposed to happen. Yep, that's supposed to happen.

[John Bytheway]

Which actually leads us right into the next two questions and verses. Because the answers to these tell a lot about what God's desire for us is. We ask two more questions in two and three. But if you're thinking about what it's teaching us, about what God's motives are, what the Savior's motives are, what they have always been, from the earliest of the ancient of days to now, it's interesting what these two verses teach us about his motives as we go through the answers. Let's do both questions, then the answers. But what do the answers teach us about his motive? Here's question number two. What are we to understand by the four beasts spoken of in the same verse? If we're back in Revelation, we asked about the sea of glass, but in those first couple verses, there's some beasts. There are four beasts full of eyes before and behind. In verse six, Right. He says, what are these beasts spoken of in the same verse? The answer, John, you want to read that?

[Matt Hinton]

They are figurative expressions used by the Revelator John.

[John Bytheway]

Which means what?

[Hank Smith]

Figurative means. It's symbolic.

[Matt Hinton]

Yeah.

[John Bytheway]

They're supposed to represent something. Yep.

[Matt Hinton]

They are figurative expressions used by the Revelator, John, in describing heaven, the paradise of God, the happiness of man and of beasts and of creeping things and of the fowls of the air. Hank is my Cat included in here.

[Hank Smith]

It's definitely not with the happiness of man.

[John Bytheway]

It all depends on what kind of cat you have, John.

[Matt Hinton]

If you want this cat, you can have it. That which is spiritual being in the likeness of that which is temporal and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual. Is everything clear?

[John Bytheway]

Yeah, it's all clear, right?

[Matt Hinton]

Yeah, yeah. The spirit of man in the likeness of his person as also the spirit of the beast and every other creature which God has created. That's one of those. You have to read slow.

[John Bytheway]

What are you learning about the motives of God? What are the beasts that are in the throne room of God? Well, they're a figurative representation. Of what?

[Hank Smith]

God's creations.

[John Bytheway]

God's creations? All of his creations. Every creation that he's ever made. Everything's numbered before him. These beasts represent all the things that God loves and that God is interested in and that he's invested in. Now it's important. Verse 3. Are the four beasts limited to individual beasts, or do they represent classes or orders? Learn that they are figurative. Now he says they are limited to four individual beasts which are shown to John to represent the glory of the classes of beings in their destined orders or sphere of creation, in the enjoyment of their eternal felicity. So I think you have to do those two verses together because what is it teaching you about the motives of God? The God in this throne room who knows the beginning and the end? What does he teach you about his motives with all of his creations, wherever they are?

[Matt Hinton]

What do you think I just underlined in verse 2? The happiness of man. Whoa. Really? That's what he's concerned about? The answer in verse 3, the enjoyment of their eternal felicity. I'm hearing man is that he might have joy. I'm hearing, what is the end of all of this? Hank, do you remember our discussion with Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat about a God who's angry with us and abhors us? The teachings of some of what Joseph Smith must have heard. Then you see this he actually wants as planned for and prepared for our. Our happiness.

[Hank Smith]

Yeah. I'm seeing here, Matt, that God, like you said, verse two, they represent his creations, his investment, his work. What Joseph is asking in verse three is, is it all the same to him?

[John Bytheway]

Yeah.

[Hank Smith]

He's saying, no, no, no, no, no. Each one is in their order or sphere of creation. I have almost priorities with my creations. I want them all to enjoy eternal felicity, but that doesn't mean they're all the same.

[John Bytheway]

Yep. In whatever sphere or order they're created. In. But they all have a measure of their creation to be fulfilled. That'll be an eternal felicity, whatever that.

[Hank Smith]

Looks like for that creation.

[John Bytheway]

Yep. But his purpose is eternal felicity for all that he's created.

[Matt Hinton]

How nice is that to hear, to.

[Hank Smith]

Know the character of God. Yeah.

[John Bytheway]

You think about these verses again in that context that we talked about. If this was all the verses that we ever had to study.

[Hank Smith]

Wow.

[John Bytheway]

God reveals in each chapter his character and his motives. We've talked a little bit about his character. Well, the next couple verses are going to reveal his power to do it. Going back to those other verses, you think of 2 Nephi 2. 25 Adam Fell that men might be and men are that they might have joy. That word joy. It's in the Footnote there of 2 Nephi 2. 25. It's the only place I've ever found a definition for the word joy. It is defined there as the potential to become like God. If you think about that, that's what joy is. Christ in Hebrews says the joy that was set before him is what allowed him to suffer. Our potential to become like the Father is that joy that allowed him to go through what he went through. But if joy is a potential to become like God, I can be suffering right now and it doesn't change my joy. I could be having a bad hair day. From the simplest to the worst suffering that's out there because of verses 2 and 3. Because of what we've learned about God so far, my joy is intact. I just have to learn to trust in this being being that is the Creator of heaven and earth.

[Hank Smith]

Yeah, I really love this. So far I haven't read this section like this in the past where the Lord is setting up with using Revelation chapter 4 describing the plan of salvation, the why behind the plan of salvation. Now, like you said, we're going to get to the how and who. Who are these people that he is so interested in? Who are these 24 elders, these seven churches? Why is he so interested in them?

[John Bytheway]

What is he going to do? We're going to get down and do 8 through 11. But what is he going to do? What is his purpose in 8 11? Who is going to do it? Who is going to fulfill it? And who is he going to use to make that happen to carry out the salvation of all of his children? It's fascinating to watch him reveal himself in these simple questions that Joseph asks. He outlines so much of his purposes. I don't know if Joseph was specific to these questions or whatever. These questions particularly Outline what God is doing and started doing with these ancient of days, the ancient churches. What was he trying to do? He was trying to gather them. He was trying to strengthen them. He was trying to bring them hope and peace. He was trying to help them find solace and trusting in what they had been taught, not being lost in the world that they were getting wrapped up in. That's what he's doing in this chapter. He's revealing himself and what his plan is. Quick summary of four. You notice that he's got some questions about the eyes and wings. It's pretty clear their eyes are representation of the light and knowledge. That is, they are full of knowledge. Their wings are representation of power to move and act these creations. They have the capability of intelligence and light and knowledge and the power to act for themselves, to choose. But it's also revealing a little bit about God. He has these beasts. If you look at it in the number of wings and things like that, Christ has perfect power and perfect knowledge. God has that perfect understanding to help us fulfill the measure of our creation, which is what we just talked about. Then we get five where what do we understand by the four and 20 elders we are to understand? These are the elders whom Jah sought. This is a specific group of people. These are the 24 elders that had been faithful in the seven churches. I don't know whether they've been martyred or whatever that has looked like they have been faithful in the ministry and are in the paradise of God. That's chapter four. We've been revealed. Now we go to chapter five. Let's go to Revelation for chapter five.

[Hank Smith]

I love Revelation five. If you want to learn about Jesus Christ and who he is, this is a great chapter to learn about him.

[John Bytheway]

There are some powerful things right here. Let's just start in chapter five, verse one. We are going to go down a little ways. Joseph doesn't ask as many questions we get. Just a couple of questions here. With 6 and 7. We are going to read a little bit in Revelation 5 because it is Hank's favorite. John, do you want to start verses one and two and maybe Hank? Three and four, then we'll get down to five.

[Hank Smith]

Sure.

[Matt Hinton]

Okay. Revelation five. One and I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne, a book written within and on the backside sealed with seven seals.

[John Bytheway]

Remember, we're in the throne room. That God that we've just talked about sitting on this throne, and he's got a book in his hand. Okay, keep going.

[Matt Hinton]

And I saw a strong angel Proclaiming with a loud voice, who is worthy to open the book and to loose the seals thereof.

[John Bytheway]

Would you have wanted to be in this room? What would this have been like?

[Hank Smith]

It's not so difficult. Someone might read this and go, I'm lost. You're not really as lost as you think. Think of God with his plan of salvation and asking, who will play the role of redeemer?

[John Bytheway]

Yep. Yeah.

[Matt Hinton]

Who's going to make this happen?

[Hank Smith]

Who's going to make this plan happen?

[John Bytheway]

The book is this plan. We're going to learn that in just a minute. Who's going to make this book? Who's going to fulfill this?

[Hank Smith]

Who actually is out there that can play this crucial role in this plan? In these next verses, you see that John is upset because there's no man in heaven nor under the earth. We even looked under it. There was nobody who could open the book to look there on. I wept much because no man was found worthy to open the read the book, neither looked thereon. There is nobody with this kind of capability who can do what is going to be asked of the Redeemer of this plan. And that means, look, I weep much. Doesn't that mean I have nowhere to turn? Now? I cannot progress because there is no one who can play that role.

[John Bytheway]

We cannot fulfill the measure of our creation that God, we just talked about. And these creations that he has. There's got to be someone with the power and the wisdom we learn from the wings and the eyes that can open this book, fulfill this plan and make it happen. Verse 5. Go ahead, Hank. I know you're excited about these verses. Hank.

[Hank Smith]

I get weird about this. There's John. He's weeping. I'm never going to progress. One of these elders says, you can stop crying. Weep not. Behold the lion of the tribe of Judah. He is going to open the book and loose the seals thereof. But interesting, both of you. He looks to see a lion, but he doesn't see a lion.

[John Bytheway]

If you were just to stop in verse five, you think, okay, what is John going to draw if he's going to put a picture.

[Hank Smith]

You're going to see Aslan coming in.

[John Bytheway]

Yeah, right. You're going to see each tribe had their banner. And on the tribe of Judah, that lion banner.

[Hank Smith]

And he's going to come save the world, this hero, this king of the jungle, the lion. Yeah, but he doesn't see a lion. He turns and sees the lamb. A slain lamb has seven horns and seven eyes. We talked about that being the eyes are light and knowledge. He's got seven. He's got perfect light and knowledge. He's got perfect power. He comes in verse seven. He, I would say, accepts his role here. Am I sending me?

[John Bytheway]

Can you just feel the hope in the world, go up wherever I am, whatever it is, the hope, whether it's the seven churches, whether it's Joseph's day, whether it's our day, the hope that goes up when the slain lamb, as it had been slain, that Greek word, slain, slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes. Now, Dr. Frederick has an article where he compared six commentaries. And one of the things I thought was really interesting about this, the commentaries about this verse says this. It's from Beal. The book in chapter five should be understood as a covenantal promise of an inheritance. When seen in the light of the above two identifications of the book and of the broader theological context of the Apocalypse, concerning paradise lost and paradise regained, you think about covenant confidence. You hear when President Nelson's talking about what gives us covenant confidence and what gives us this book is a covenantal promise. When the Savior says, here am I. God has made a covenant to save his children. The Savior took it upon himself to fulfill that, to make that covenant possible, to make that promise possible, to be fulfilled without him, without the Lamb, there's no way.

[Hank Smith]

That's why you feel that of John weeping. I wept much. There's no other way. Unless the Lord steps up, unless the Savior says, I will do it, we are all stuck.

[John Bytheway]

He says, don't weep, don't cry. Wherever you are, don't cry. There is a Savior. There is a Savior.

[Hank Smith]

I'm going to try to summarize this because I've never seen this before. But if we were to take the first four questions, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, you could put these into groups. One through four is almost we believe in God. Five through seven is God's plan. Eight through 11 is really the gospel and us. Then 12 through the rest is the Second Coming and the restoration and the Second Coming. He's going to make this all happen. Oh, my word. This isn't random. These are random questions. These are holy cow.

[John Bytheway]

We said. What questions would you have if you read this? Well, Joseph asked specific questions. These specific questions lead us to the character, power and plan.

[Hank Smith]

I am loving this, as you can tell, like my heart is beating. I am pretty excited. I'm seeing something that I think is correct. Let me run this by both of you. When I look at section 77 initially, I might just see a bunch of random questions about the Book of Revelation. And say, we don't really need to cover this. It's just a bunch of questions about the Book of Revelation. But, Matt, as you're laying this out, I'm seeing the first four questions. We learn about God, who he is and what his motives are. Five through seven, his plan of salvation. Eight through eleven. You're showing us is his gospel and our role in that. If we were to keep going, he would talk about the tribes of Israel sealing the tribes of Israel right to him. Then you've got 12 through, basically the rest saying, the Second Coming. He will finish his plan. He will return. These are not random questions. They're an outline of the gospel, the simplicity of the gospel. This is beautiful.

[John Bytheway]

Yeah, it's marvelous to me, you just summarize if you go back 8 through 11. This is about these angels that God has to send to the world. Yet there's one that says, wait, we're not going to hurt anybody yet. Don't do anything because we've got to restore all things. We've got to get this gospel to everybody. We've got to let everybody know the good news that we just learned about our Savior, Jesus Christ, that the Lamb has been slain. He's opening this book and he's carrying out God's plan. You go down to 10 and 11. Who's going to help with this? When is it going to happen? It's going to happen in this 6,000 years. But who's going to help? It's going to be these 144,000 who are missionaries and high priest gatherers that are going to go out and gather. If President Nelson is looking at this, he's saying, we're in this gathering. Sometimes we look at the Second Coming and we think of it like, oh, no, there's all this bad. There's wickedness. I look at these verses and I think there is so much going on that is amazing. We had temples and gathering, and President Nelson says in the last conference that we have spiritual momentum and more youth going out. He has announced 200 temples since he has become a prophet. We look at the world sometimes we can get so lost in the scary. But God is working. A marvelous work and a wonder. Joseph outlines it for us, or John the Revelator outlines it for us. God, says Joseph, here's the big picture of what's going to happen. You're going to be part of it. There's 2,000 members at this time.

[Hank Smith]

Yeah. He asks the perfect questions. It's almost as if the Holy Ghost is saying, ooh, ask this one. Ask this one, because we're going to lay out the plan of salvation from beginning to end in 15 questions about the Book of Revelation.

[John Bytheway]

I mean, is that remarkable?

[Hank Smith]

Section 77 has just opened up to me.

[Matt Hinton]

What we're seeing here, we've discovered it before, is every once in a while, there are things that are hidden in plain sight.

[John Bytheway]

I love that phrase.

[Matt Hinton]

It's always been there, but you've never seen it before. We just saw a sequence, an orderliness. I like this word, sometimes an elegance to some of the ways that God reveals things. You go, I've missed that. But it's got. What have I heard you say, Hank? Well, you said the pen of heaven about eloquence, but I'm talking about elegant symmetry. You see it and you think, ooh, look at that. This is orderly. There's a reason this was revealed in this order. I like what you said, Hank. Okay, now ask this question, because we're following a sequence here.