John (7:54)

Okay, I'm on page 250 of Saints at war. I did not know how many Latter Day Saints there were in the 43rd Division. I had no way of finding out from my position. One day the chief chaplain of that division, a Catholic, came to our particular sector and visited. His assistant was a Latter Day Saint from Salt Lake City, Keith Wallace. I told him I had been appointed a group leader and did not know if there were any Latter Day Saints in the group. Keith arranged for me to meet with the chaplain who said, let's find out. I'll help you organize a meeting so your people can have their religious service that they need to have. That dear man really helped us. He publicized the meeting throughout the division, reporting that there would be an LDS service held on Easter morning at the rear command post. Easter morning came. I did not know what to expect, how many men we would have or if anybody would come. I arrived at the rear command post and found a bombed out house. The only thing standing were the walls, but it gave us a little bit of privacy. I scrounged some ammunition boxes and formed a pulpit and sacrament table. From those I found some spent shell casings and some little wildflowers that had survived all the battles and set them up for a little bit of atmosphere. We had a field organ which I played. I had to use my knees to pump it to make any music. I waited impatiently to see how many would come. Then the trucks started coming in. By the time we had our service, there were about 50 latter day saint young men there. They had come directly from combat and their foxholes. They were dirty and unshaven. They had their combat gear, ammunition belts, canteens, steel helmets and their rifles.

Bob (9:37)

Now you're having the same struggle I did, John.

John (9:41)

They're just teenagers. You know, they got off those trucks and rather than having them carry their weapons inside the house, we had them stack them outside the walls. They sat on their steel helmets because that was the only thing they had to sit on. We enjoyed one of the most spiritual services I had ever attended in my life. Some of those men had not been in the Latter Day Saints service since they left home. A number of them had gone astray. I will never forget as we partook of the sacrament and the priests knelt at the table and could not get through the prayers because they were so emotional about it. I watched some of the men who acted as deacons, tears coursing down their cheeks as they passed the sacrament in our mess gear to the congregation and those receiving it feeling the same spirit, tears in their eyes. After singing some hymns, praying and partaking of the sacrament, we turn it into a testimony meeting. I don't know when I have heard more fervent testimonies. Men who, on the spot, repented of things they had done and said, this is going to change my life just by having this association, singing these songs and feeling this fellowship and renewing my covenants with the Lord. It was one of those experiences I will never forget. I think that was the highlight of anything that happened to me in the war.

Bob (11:00)

We look at the rest of his life, John and Hank, his devotion and his service. I've had the good fortune of traveling with Elder Backman out to the trails in Wyoming where the handcart pioneers made the journey to Martin's Cove. I think, well, Robert Backman knew a lot about those things that are hard. He could connect well to the pioneers, to our early church history and to the Doctrine Covenants in his own right.

John (11:39)

Wow, Bob, Hank has heard me talk about this many times, probably, but my dad was not a member of the church, was a seaman first class, a lookout and a gunner's mate on the USS Saratoga, but was invited to church by some buddies at South High School. Cal Miller was one, Keith Crawford another. My dad said they dragged me to church often cruelly. He attended church in the Saratoga. When he got home, he said I should date some LDS girls, which completely changed his life and mine. And so I think about what you were saying, how even in the very worst of circumstances, the Lord can find a way to. To do something good. You mentioned President Hinckley. I believe that the church in the Philippines was started there by servicemen in 1962. That has a place in my heart because that's where I serve my mission.

Hank (12:34)

John, Yes. I have heard you talk about your dad often, and I love it every time that you do. I feel a little out of place here. You've both written books on this. We've already talked about Saints at War and the many volumes that you've done there, Bob. But, John, you wrote two books called Supersonic Saints. I've heard about that from quite a few people as I meet people throughout the world that know John, by the way, now frequently. I loved those Supersonic Saints books.

John (13:04)

Thank you, Hank. I love airplanes. I just think they're beautiful and sleek, and they have to be because they're going to fly through the air. Airplanes are like gorgeous sculptures. But I had a roommate, Tom McKnight, who had to crash land an A4 Skyhawk on a carrier during his training. His story was so good, I was like, tom, write that down. Then I started collecting others and thought, back in the day when I was a priest, I would have loved reading these stories. I was so thrilled with how many veterans were willing to share their stories. I can share one with you if you like. I met on a trip a Vietnam veteran named David Stock. He said that when he grew up, he knew he'd probably have to go to war. But he heard about a program called High School to Helicopters in New Mexico. He thought, maybe I can fly rescue helicopters and be like an ambulance and help people. He said. He started his training and he had an unusually good knack, a gift for flying helicopters. He had such a gift. They were like, no, we don't want you to fly an ambulance chopper, a medevac chopper. We want you to fly the new Cobra attack helicopter. And he said, I didn't want to shoot people, but I decided I'd be like Captain Moroni and be the best soldier I could, but try not to delight in bloodshed. He said we fasted and prayed, our family, that everything would be fine. He said, I had the most foreboding feeling that things would not be fine. Saying goodbye to my mother was one of the hardest things I ever did, as you can imagine. Well, he said that he had a certain assignment once to go out he wore. He called it a chicken plate. It looks like A bulletproof vest. But he decided to get one that was a little bit larger. On a whim that day he was hit by anti aircraft fire. This chicken plate was going over more of his body than usual. A smaller one, this in anti aircraft ammunition would have gone through his heart but because he got a bigger one, it hit the very edge and went out through his shoulder. Here he is wearing that with the bullet you can see on the side. He was wounded. I think one hit his leg too. And he flew that helicopter back. They got him in triage. A member of the church saw him and said what happened? And he told him and he said, let me help you remove your temple garments and we'll get you ready for operating and let me go find somebody who can give you a blessing. This priesthood holder that he'd never met put his hands on his head and said, David, your family fasted for the wrong thing. You were hurt and you will be hurt again, but you will return home a whole man. He said, I felt invincible after that, you know, he did on another mission, he got hit like that. But he did return home a whole man. Thank you, David Stock, for your service for an inspired priesthood holder who was there to give him that blessing.

Bob (16:28)

Wow.

John (16:28)

Anyway, that's just one of the stories, Hank. Isn't that something pretty powerful?

Hank (16:31)

We could stay all day and I would love it. Bob, I wanted to bring something up to ask you about. Often Latter Day Saints in the US might get the idea that when we talk saints at war that these are all Americans or British. But I wanted to read something. This article is called when the Wicked Rule, the People Mourn. It's written by Robert Freeman back in 2003. It's an article we can put in our show notes. This is about a German saint, someone on the other side of this war. You even write about a German saint who is at D Day but he's seeing the armies come in. This really touches me, Bob, because it gives me a new perspective that the Lord is not on one side of this. He is on both sides with these saints. Here's the story. His name is Horst Hilbert. He provides a description of divine intervention. Hilbert's unit had been deployed to the Russian front where many German soldiers experienced horrible conditions while on guard duty. One day he and his comrades were attacked by the Russians. The only shelter he had was a little shack with a straw roof. And here's a quote from. I was very afraid and since I was forbidden to leave the post, I wanted to pray. I could feel the power of the destroyer. But I could not utter one word of my prayer. My tongue felt paralyzed. I to think that the first words in my life were prayers on my mother's lap. All I was able to say was if my mother could pray for me right now so the Lord might hear the prayers of that righteous woman. With this thought, I looked to the east and felt prompted to look north. When I did this and turned, a bullet passed and in passing hit the coat at my stomach. Had I not turned, it would have struck my stomach. After this incident, the shooting stopped. Some days later, I received a letter from my mother. In this letter, she wrote me that in the night of January 6, she woke hearing me call her Mama. Also she heard the sound of shooting. She got up quickly, woke up my four sisters and said, we have to pray fast. Horst is in mortal danger and needs our prayers. The five women knelt down and my mother pleaded with the Lord to keep his protecting hand over me. After the prayer, my mother told my sisters to go back to sleep and be of good cheer. Horst has been in danger and the Lord has helped him. That just touched my heart, Bob, to think of saints on the other side of here it is in World War II.

Bob (19:26)

Pretty remarkable, isn't it? Hank, as you're sharing that, I want to get to your question because I think it's terribly important. Elder Maxwell, in the same interview I mentioned earlier, he describes an experience where his parents felt a prompt in the night to rise and give a second couple's prayer that night to pray specifically for Neil in a moment of danger. He did not learn until many years later through a surviving aunt of that experience and of that moment, the fervency of what his mother felt talk about their mothers knew it moments. The only time he was emotional in the interview, he described that the prayer had happened at the very precise time that he could match up when they had some terrible shooting coming that he was spared of in that night. Which of course raises an independent question from yours and again, the one I want to get to, which is when bad things happen to good people, when sometimes individuals that are interviewees have shared they were just cream of the crop, good and righteous young man, yet they didn't come home. How to navigate that Sometimes there's survivor's guilt. There's just a myriad of ways that these experiences come back home and you just think such a good person. Again, it's indicative of Satan's role from ending war and on the consequences that come of war against civilian casualties. We have to be so careful as Disciples of Christ. How we describe those that are on the other side. You have some general conference talks by key leaders during World War I and World War II and others as well that talk about the care we need to have and how we discourse on such things. But to your point of the other side, if you will, the young man you were talking about, what role he had, not Horst Hilbert, but the one just before there with his being a forward observer, is what the role was in seeing the enemy in advance. Flada is the one that I think of in a specific there who eventually is taken. This young German Latter Day Saint. He's taken as a prisoner of war and he will be relocated over to the United States, which happened to a good number of individuals. He comes and it's remarkable he's coming as a prisoner, but he passes by the Statue of Liberty coming into New York Harbor. He can't control his tears. And because he looks at that symbol of freedom, true freedom, he realizes it's something he doesn't have in his homeland. He counts it a great blessing to just be in that land. It's interesting that later after the war he will choose to come and make America his home. He marries, raises a family and many years later is called upon to be a mission president back in Germany. That's like a book unto itself. Hank, you want to write that book, there's one for you. I stand in awe of things like that. Now we've encountered saints from Canada and I used to have Hubie Brown's brilliant red uniform hanging in my office. Had that for about 10 years. I think he was up there and then Australia and certainly Germany had a population of Latter Day Saints going into World War II. That was only behind the United States and Canada. So it was the third largest membership in the church. These are complicated dynamics that we don't have time really to treat. But I will say this. Those young warriors that were fighting on whatever side and whatever country at those tender years, they didn't understand the perplexities of nations. They didn't know really of the diabolical things in the case of the German experience in World War II that were going on, they wouldn't have had a true sense of that. I think of Elder Busha, there's a general authority of the past, Elder Enzio Buscha, who served in the tail end of World War II on the German side. He was not a member of the church at that time, but he was all of 14 years of age. Can we imagine a 14 year old soldier in, in a in a conflict like that. And he doesn't even hardly know what end of the, of the gun to hold. Young Enzio Bushe is a part of the German youth movement. Be a little like the Boy Scout program here stateside. There is that anticipation of eventually being a part of the military forces. When things get really difficult at the end of the war, they're conscripting these young 14 year old kids to go out and do whatever they can. And he's a part of that number. He goes forward and I don't know the full details of just how they were deployed, but however he moved in that moment, he was captured very quickly by the Americans. He and others taken to an old bar. And I can picture this in my mind's eye that they're taken to this rundown barn. It's just a place to house them. They don't know just what to do with them. But in the next day or so, they determine they're just going to have to release them. They can't have this management challenge. They go and somehow are able to communicate that those young men are to raise their arm to the square and promise that they will not fight any longer, they'll return home, that they're done with the war. Anzio replies, he was only too happy to do that. They were all very happy to do that. So they did. He went back home, but there was an incident or an exchange with him and an American GI that the American gave him a little bit of food stuff to help him keep nourished. He was really grateful for that. When later he has his first introduction to the church, he remembers that gesture and that kindness. It actually helps him have that initial interest which eventually leads to his baptism. Further on down the road of life, he becomes really one of the great general 4070s that I've certainly ever known of. Great individual. So pleased to be able to interview him in his home. He was actually wearing attire that was reflective of his native Germany. What a grand man. But in any case, it's a reminder those on the other side, they were good people, they just had a really bad cause. And in the case of these youngsters, they didn't understand what was at work in their leadership. Even today that has application in how we view the world that we live in. We're a global church and we have a global membership. Perplexities of nations are just going to continue to vex even the very brightest and keenest minds. And we can pray every day. We should have that prayer in our hearts that those in leadership positions in our governments. Certainly the leaders of the church are so aware and they do the very best they can to navigate it all. Just a final thought in this regard. Many years ago, interviewing elder Hartman Rector Jr. Whose convert baptism story is really a gem. He was on a carrier. He was a Navy pilot. He had already had his initial introduction through missionaries that had come during his training in San Diego. But now he's out on deployment and it's during the Korean War. He's with a group of Latter Day Saint young men that are meeting regularly in the ship's library, conducting worship services, good studies of the gospel, of the scriptures, of commentaries. Because of that introduction he's had already through the missionaries, he wants to be with them and he meets with them and he's deepening his testimony as he does. In the end, he's electing to be baptized. On an R and R layover in Japan. He and several of his new friends make their way to the mission office there in Tokyo. He presents himself ready, willing and able to be baptized. Only then does he learn through the leadership of the mission that he can't be baptized. That at that time the policy was that they had to study the gospel for a number of months. I believe it was closer to a year before they could actually be baptized. And Hartmann, rector telling the story to me, he said, I told them every time when I depart that ship out on the Philippine Sea ship, when I come back, there's holes in my plane that weren't there when I left. He said, they're trying to kill me. If you deny me the blessing of baptism in my life on that judgment day, I'm going to speak against you because I really needed that. Of course, he tells it in a way that only Hartman, Director Jr. Could. And he said, you know, in the end they determined that they could maybe bend those policies just a little bit. So they baptized me and I was very grateful for that. Later, as a general authority, he traveled the world with his ministry and assignments. He said on that same occasion that he related the story, I just shared that one thing. He knew that anywhere in this world that he could go where the American flag could be raised freely there, that the gospel was doing better than where it was curtailed. He felt that that was a principle, that he felt strongly that you have to have those freedoms of religious liberty and of being able to pursue your religious desires.

Hank (29:30)

Now, John and Bob, I have a little sequel to the Horst Hilbert story. Later on in the war, American forces end up capturing his unit and placed them in a fenced POW compound. Horst caught the attention of a guard and asked him in English if there were any Mormons in the camp. Surprised that Horst could speak English, the guard said he knew one. Get him. It's important, Horst said excitedly. Soon, a GI appeared, smoking a cigarette. Are you the Mormon? Horst asked with some surprise. Yeah, but I'm not really active, he replied. Upon further questioning, Horst learned that several other Mormons met to worship each Sunday. He had made contact with one of these men who obtained permission for Horst to attend their church service. Here's a German pow. Tears came as Horst described kneeling for the first time in years before a makeshift sacrament table. There I was, he described in my dirty German uniform, the passing the sacrament to my American brothers. I knew at that moment that for me, the war was over. I was so grateful to my father in heaven for my membership in the church and the blessings that were mine that day. That's from a BYU devotional called Seasons of War by our friend Dennis Wright, who's written quite a bit with Bob.

Bob (30:59)

Yeah, surely is a friend of mine. I've loved and worked with him for years.

Hank (31:04)

Bob, before we let you go, I would like to ask you to tell one more story. And John, I know you know this story too, so you can help him out. It's portrayed in a movie. It's 20 years old now, 20 plus years old, called Saints and Soldiers. It has our friend Kirby Hayborn in it. John, you and I both know Kirby.

John (31:23)

Really well with a great British accent.

Hank (31:26)

Yeah, we'll see if he listens to this podcast. It'll be a test for our friend Bob. The real name of the soldier portrayed in the movie is Benner hall, an army marksman in World War II known by his friends as Deadeye Dick. Meaning he doesn't miss. Right?

Bob (31:49)

Yeah. In fact, it's really remarkable because humble guy. I happen to know his family just a little bit and that's what opened the door for the opportunity to get acquainted with his story through my wife. And they have common hometown in Mesa, Arizona. Yeah, apparently he was really good at what he did. Some of us have seen movies where you have in particularly maybe a wartime World War II type context, clearing out of a community of a city. The Americans are coming in in this case, and they're trying to clear out any last holdouts. Apparently this German soldier was one of them. And so they flushed him out. He's running in retreat. This is where Dead Eye Dick Benner hall comes into play, where he is to kind of have that sharpshooter moment there and take him out. He shoots and misses, shoots and misses. He actually takes another shot at a inanimate object that he just knows what it is and how to get it. And he knocks that out just fine. But then he goes back, tries to shoot the other guy, and he can't do it. Well, eventually that German soldier is captured by their patrol and he's returned back to camp. One of the leading voices of the patrol. Hey, we want you to meet this guy. When we found him, he was kneeling in prayer. Well, we thought of you because, well, you're the only guy in our group that does that. Father Mike, be a common thread of some kind, maybe be your friend. So one thing leads to another and they actually do get to be introduced to each other. And he gets his full name and immediately the German soldiers referring to him as Bruder Hall. He's a fellow Latter Day Saint. The chances of that, think about it yet, they strike up a kinship and the rest is history, so to speak. But what a chance encounter and oh, grateful his life was preserved. And we got to make that connection.

Hank (33:47)

Wow. I have the story here from Dennis Wright. Listen to this. This German soldier explained that he had a friend in Arizona. No one was more surprised than Benner when the German told of his friend, an elder from Mesa, Arizona, who had baptized his family before the war. Benner recognized the name of his high school friend and knew that he had served his mission to Germany. I know that guy. Benner explained.

Bob (34:19)

Hank, that's really remarkable. That just adds the cherry on top.

Hank (34:24)

Wow. My goodness.

John (34:27)

I don't know if you two remember that. I believe this is true. Elder Maxwell went back to Japan to organize a stake or something. I think he set apart a stake president who he discovered was there on the other side of Elder Maxwell's foxhole was over there. You know, the possibility. Did he joke or did I hear this somewhere of somebody from the Midvale fourth Ward shooting at somebody from the Tokyo sixth Ward was real. I remember my dad. I want to make sure you hear this, because my dad, when he talked about back then, the enemy, he said they didn't want to be there. He said, I didn't want to be there. What a beautiful end to the story. When my brother Kendrick opened his mission call to Sapporo, Japan, when my dad said, you are going, son, for a completely different reason, how wonderful that was for my brother to serve in Japan for that reason, to bring peace, it was pretty cool.

Bob (35:27)

Thank you for the privilege of being with you today. You two and so grateful for this podcast. What it is brings to the saints, other friends of the church. I just want to say in this sharing of stories and experiences of those who have been in harm's way in combat situations, I try consistently to say we never intend to glorify war in anything that we share. We've said it all in terms of its being a tool of the adversary and how we yearn for an improved climate in our world today and a reduction of these tensions and the cessation of hostilities and all of that. But they do stand as a witness to us of terribly important experiences that we can hope to learn from and certainly to commend those who serve. Talk often in the Saints at War project at BYU about deepening our understanding, having that gratitude for those who go forward, then resolving that we will be disciples of peace and of Christ that we can influence in whatever ways for good we can.

Hank (36:38)

Thank you, Bob. What a treat it has been to have you here. I was looking forward to this. I know, John. You were looking forward to this, this opportunity that we have to look at these incredible veterans. We send a prayer and our love to any veterans listening to any active duty who are maybe listening.

John (37:03)

Thank you for your service.

Bob (37:04)

Absolutely.

Hank (37:06)

With that, we want to thank Dr. Robert Freeman, our friend Bob, for joining us today. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors David and Verla Sorensen, and every episode we remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you'll join us next week. We've got a big section coming up, the olive leaf section 88 on follow him. Thank you for joining us on today's episode. Do you or someone you know speak Spanish, Portuguese or French? You can now watch and listen to our podcast in those languages. Links are in the description below. Today's show notes and transcript are on our website, followhim. Co. That's followhim Co. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Will Stoughton, Crystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kabwica, Iri de Gonzalez and Annabel Sorensen. Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life.

Bob (38:15)

And teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to him. Follow him.