Podcast Summary: followHIM | Doctrine & Covenants 98-101 Part 1 with Dr. Derek Sainsbury

Hosts: Hank Smith & John Bytheway
Guest: Dr. Derek Sainsbury
Date: September 3, 2025
Sections Covered: Doctrine & Covenants 98-101 (Part 1)
Main Theme:
Unpacking the historical, spiritual, and personal trials surrounding the Saints in Missouri during 1833, with deep dives into the people, context, and revelations that shaped one of the most harrowing episodes in Latter-day Saint history.

Overview

This episode explores the historical events and spiritual principles embedded in Doctrine & Covenants 98–101. Dr. Derek Sainsbury returns as a guest, providing expert analysis on the intersection of Church history and government, focusing on the Saints' persecution in Missouri in 1833. The episode takes a unique approach by following the lives of three key couples—Sidney & Elizabeth Gilbert, Philo & Celia Dibble, and John & Julia Murdoch—to illuminate the human side of church history.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: The Darkness Descends in Missouri

[01:32–03:41]

• 1833 marks a dark period for the Missouri Saints: escalating violence, destruction of the press, and the forced expulsion from their homes.
• The Saints in Missouri and Ohio are separated by 1,000 miles, both groups facing distinct challenges in building Zion.

2. The Human Lens: Three Couples' Stories

[02:41–20:28]

• Sidney & Elizabeth Gilbert: From New Haven, Connecticut; Sidney, an educated merchant, partners with Newel K. Whitney. Together, they run the Church store in Zion and take in family orphaned children—central figures in implementing consecration economics.
• Philo & Celia Dibble: Early converts from Massachusetts and Ohio, known for faith and generosity (Philo gives the modern equivalent of $132,000 to support Joseph Smith).
• John & Julia Murdoch: John survives a traumatic childhood and becomes a prolific missionary; their family story interweaves with the Smiths when their twins are given to Joseph and Emma after Julia’s death.
• Dr. Sainsbury’s Approach: “I want to look at it through the lens of three couples... see them meet on the other side of these sections in Clay County. We'll talk...about how we deal with trials and why they happen in our lives.” [02:41]

3. The Historical Context: Missouri on the Edge

[15:00–25:33]

• The land is a frontier melting pot: fugitives, ambitious businessmen, poor Appalachian migrants, and those extending slavery.
• Independence is a bustling, lucrative town (high Santa Fe Trail profits) but full of lawlessness and violence.
• Quotes from contemporary missionaries paint Independence as “a godless place filled with so many profane swearers...an overabundance of females...practicing the world's oldest profession."

4. Zion versus Jacksonian America: Theological and Social Collision

[60:58–66:03]

• Discusses sharp contrasts between Latter-day Saint concepts (Zion as ‘one in heart, mind, and no poor among them’) and local values (strict racial hierarchy, rugged individualism, economic opportunism, political fervor).
• Church’s law of consecration made Saints appear insular and economically threatening to locals.

5. Building Zion: Early Revelations and Rising Tensions

[21:28–43:23]

• The Lord’s revelations (Sections 28, 53, 57–59) point to Jackson County as the centerplace but also foreshadow coming tribulations (“after much tribulation come the blessings”).
• Emphasis on the Saints' unique mission—“building Zion” is fundamentally unlike anything in Protestant America: new scripture, community gathering, economic consecration.

6. The Fire Ignites: Mob Violence and Destruction

[66:07–77:10]

• Mob Manifesto: Local citizens label Mormons as “the dregs of society,” fear race-mixing and abolitionist influence, accuse the Church of “tampering with slaves” and subverting the law.
• Inciting Incident: W. W. Phelps publishes articles on free people of color (cautiously quoting state law but received as a provocation) and critiques on false prophets, escalating local hostility.
• Mob Actions: Manufacturing, homes, and the print shop are destroyed; furniture is thrown in the street, the building is reduced to rubble.
• Mary & Caroline Rollins: 14-year-old Mary famously braves the mob to rescue pages of the Book of Commandments. “I am determined to have some of them…” [77:03 – Mary Rollins, via Dr. Sainsbury]

7. Personal Trials and Faith

[35:29–60:58 and throughout]

• Personal Story: Dr. Sainsbury vulnerably shares his own experience with trauma, moving to Australia as a child, enduring abuse, and finding healing through the gospel and the compassion of teachers and loved ones.
• Resilience of the Saints: Stories of John Murdoch’s endurance through personal loss, missionary fatigue, and forgiving the mob highlight the Saints’ capacity to “receive trials as a little child.” [38:49–39:33]

8. Church Leadership Under Strain

[43:23–48:41]

• Logistical and bureaucratic frustrations: Saints move into Missouri without proper authorization; Church leadership struggles with communication, misinterpretation, and overwhelming demand.
• Leaders like Bishop Partridge and Sidney Gilbert consecrate substantial resources but face escalating stress.

9. Lessons from Persecution: Faith, Perseverance, and Christ-like Attributes

[80:56]

• Edward Partridge: Endures tarring and feathering with humility: “I was so filled with the Spirit and the love of God, that I had no hatred towards my persecutors or anyone else.” [80:56]
• The Lord’s promises of ultimate restitution and resurrection serve as doctrinal anchors amid suffering (“All your losses will be made up to you in the resurrection, provided you continue faithful…” – Joseph Smith, as quoted by Sainsbury [07:54])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Dr. Derek Sainsbury [07:54]: “All your losses will be made up to you in the resurrection, provided you continue faithful by the vision of the Almighty. I have seen it… what will come on the other side will be so, so incredible.”
• Mary Rollins [77:03]: “I am determined to have some of them.”
• Edward Partridge [80:56]: “I was so filled with the Spirit and the love of God, that I had no hatred towards my persecutors or anyone else.”
• John Murdoch’s take on trials [38:49]: “There’s an attitude...where they are able to receive trials like a child as opposed to fight against them. I see this in John Murdoch.”

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Historical Backdrop & Three Couples: 02:41 – 20:28
• Missouri’s Social/Economic Landscape: 15:00 – 25:33
• Mob Violence Begins: 66:07 – 77:10
• Mary & Caroline Rollins Save Book of Commandments: 76:30 – 77:10
• Christ’s Promises Amid Trauma: 07:54 – 09:34
• Personal Testimony on Healing and Ministry: 51:39 – 60:58
• Discussion of ‘Receiving Trials as a Child’: 38:49 – 39:33
• Edward Partridge’s Tarring & Response: 77:10 – 80:56

Tone & Style

The hosts maintain their trademark blend of warmth, wit, and empathy—lighthearted banter about 80s music and “pure” co-host status give way to deeply personal and poignant moments, both from Church history and Dr. Sainsbury’s own life. The discussion is scholarly yet accessible, never shying away from the complexity and pain of the subject matter, and always circling back to faith in Christ and the power of personal resilience.

For Further Study

• D&C sections covered: 98–101 (Part 1), 99 (John Murdoch’s Mission)
• Key historical events: Mob violence, destruction of the press, expulsion from Jackson County.
• Figures to know: Edward Partridge, Sidney & Elizabeth Gilbert, Mary & Caroline Rollins, John & Julia Murdoch, Philo & Celia Dibble, W.W. Phelps.

Next Episode Teaser:
The aftermath of the mob violence, the continued conflicts, and how the Saints respond in faith—“Coming up in part two of this episode...” [80:56]