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- [00:00]
Hank Smith
Coming up in this episode on Follow Him.
- [00:03]
Courtney Rich
For most of my adult life, I struggled with depression and anxiety from about the age of 18, you know, not something I think most people would look at when they take a glance at social media. And for many years, even the people in my closest circle were very unaware of what I was experiencing, really didn't know what my relationship was with the Savior and if he saw me because I was still battling and fighting my demons, trying to plead for his light in my life and for my trial to be lifted. And I still very much felt alone and unseen by Him. I remember thinking to myself, wow, okay, maybe this gospel isn't for me. And I heard the words so clearly. And it was.
- [00:53]
Hank Smith
Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Follow Him. Happy Easter. John. By the Way, it is Easter at Follow Him. Talk to me. Tell me about Easter in the by the Way house.
- [01:07]
John Bytheway
I have a very talented artist daughter. Ashley got some modeling clay and made the most beautiful Easter garden tomb. Then we get one of those little lights that you stick underneath it and it has this little dim light inside, and it's becomes something to look at through the month. We've had nativity scenes for years. We need an Easter Nativity scene. It's beautiful.
- [01:34]
Hank Smith
We have a guest with us who she and I have become friends over the last year or so. Her name is Courtney Rich. Courtney, welcome to Follow Him.
- [01:43]
Courtney Rich
Thanks for having me. Good to be here, guys.
- [01:45]
Hank Smith
We are excited to have you. John, you know how I stew over guests, how I think who's the best fit here. This came together really well, clicked into place. Courtney, when you think about Easter, what comes to mind?
- [01:59]
Courtney Rich
Oh, I mean, I think a lot of my childhood memories and the things that we did as tradition in our home, whether that was the Easter dinner or egg hunts, carrying some of those same things with my kids, we recently also got more of a Easter Nativity, which is, I need more of that in my life. The more I study about Easter weekend, the more I really want to celebrate and think about and be spending time on it like we do at Christmas time.
- [02:28]
Hank Smith
If we could, in our minds, switch to that focus. It's hard. It's against the tradition. When the world puts up those Christmas lights and the music starts playing, it feels right to get into the spirit of it. But Easter, you're in the middle of spring. A lot is going on, kids in school, and you might miss it if you're not paying attention. John, Courtney has never joined us before, but she is not an unknown. There are going to be a Lot of people who already know Courtney well. Do you have some information about her?
- [03:00]
John Bytheway
That's right. Courtney Rich. She is a member of the Young Women General Advisory Council. So she works with the Young Women General Presidency. Her area, as she's going to tell us, I'm sure, is a lot of social media stuff. She's an expert, has training in broadcast journalism from BYU and now runs Young Women Worldwide. That's what it's called, right?
- [03:21]
Courtney Rich
Yeah, Young Women Worldwide. And I spend a lot of time working on that with the church's team and then also President Freeman. And it's a space I feel comfortable with, so it's fun to be a part of that.
- [03:32]
John Bytheway
And I think some of our watchers are going, hey, I think I've seen her on television as well. You're from. Born and raised in Wheaton, Illinois, Right?
- [03:41]
Courtney Rich
Well, born there and then raised all over. So from Chicago to Pittsburgh, Southern California, little time in Utah, back to Southern California. That's where I finished high school. So Southern California is home. Although I will always claim Chicago as the birthplace. And I'm a fan of the Bulls and grew up loving Michael Jordan.
- [04:02]
Hank Smith
And that's fantastic. I am a fan of Michael Jordan up until about 1997. 1998.
- [04:09]
Courtney Rich
That sounds about right.
- [04:11]
John Bytheway
Just that one game. Yeah.
- [04:13]
Hank Smith
Yeah. That love ended. Yeah. I think it crushed our dreams. John, I have to tell you, I did not get to know Courtney through the church. I was on Instagram and I don't know how it happened, but we somehow connected on Instagram and she has this account. You can find it easily. It's called Cake by Courtney. All one word, 700,000 plus followers. And she creates the most beautiful desserts. In fact, John, I. There is one. Oatmeal, butterscotch, salted caramel cookies. Now, Courtney, how do I get some of these? John, I gotta tell you, these are my favorite things. And you can watch the video of her making them. And it's. I'm dying right now. I actually have to turn it off because I am so hungry. So, Courtney, when did this start, this Cake by Courtney?
- [05:14]
Courtney Rich
I started Cake by Courtney about 10 years ago this August. But the baking and diving into that and that became a hobby about 15 years ago. So my son just turned 16 in December, and I made my first cake from scratch when he turned 1. We were living in Santa Monica at the time, so kind of a foodie scene was developing. We were close to my parents and also my husband's parents. We would go up there a lot on Sundays, actually, and have Dinner at the Riches. And I just remember watching my in laws in the kitchen. And I mean, my mom is a great cook, so this is no knock on Diana. Mom, you are such a yummy, good cook. But I would watch what Rick and Connie were doing in the kitchen. It felt like next level stuff. And so I always watched and wanted to help and be a part of what they were doing in the kitchen and learn from them. So when Weston's birthday came around, I thought it'd be really fun to make a birthday cake from scratch. That was something I'd never done before. I'd made cookies and brownies and pies and all that stuff with my mom. But a cake from scratch, like, ooh, that felt like a big moment, a great way to celebrate. Truth be told, I was trying to impress Ryan's parents. I thought, okay, I make this, this cake from scratch. And this is totally true. I was like, I think they'd give me, like, more responsibility in the kitchen. And I had so much fun. I fell in love with the process of it and then sharing it with people. Found any excuse to get back in the kitchen and teach myself. So I did that for years. I was working in media consulting, freelancing, starting my family. And then we moved here ten and a half years ago. And a year into being here, I was like, I've got some recipes. I think I'll share em online and see what people think.
- [06:53]
Hank Smith
And it sort of worked amazing. Three quarters of a million people following it. And what I love, Courtney, is every once in a while, you let people know what you believe. It's really fun to see that, because cake by Courtney is definitely reaching across faith lines to members of other faiths or no faith at all. And here you are saying, oh, I know you love the desserts, but also I think you'll love what I believe.
- [07:17]
Courtney Rich
Yeah, I love Jesus too. Let's talk about him.
- [07:19]
Hank Smith
Yeah, let's talk about him. Well, let's do that today. I frequently tell my students, do you know about April 3, 1836? And they kind of look around, should we? I'm like, yeah. Do you like being with your family forever? Because this needs to be a holiday. April 3rd in our church. I'm going to read from the Come follow me manual. April 3, 1836, was Easter Sunday. After helping administer the sacrament to saints in the newly dedicated Kirtland Temple, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery found a quiet place behind a veil and bowed in silent prayer. Then, on this sacred day, when Christians everywhere were commemorating the resurrection of Jesus Christ, the risen Savior himself, appeared in his temple, declaring, I am he who liveth. I am he who was slain. What does it mean to say that Jesus Christ is He who liveth? It doesn't just mean that he rose from the tomb and appeared to his disciples in Galilee. It means that he lives today. He speaks through prophets today. He leads his church today. He heals wounded souls and broken hearts today. So we can echo the words of Joseph Smith's powerful testimony. After the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony which we give of him that he lives. We can hear his voice in these revelations, witness his hand in our lives, and feel the joy this sentence gives. I know that my redeemer lives. Oh, this is wonderful. And before we started, Courtney and John, we talked about the people listening, that our hope is to help heal wounded souls and broken hearts. I love that that's going to be our focus today. So, Courtney, what do you want to do? Where should we start?
- [09:13]
Courtney Rich
Oh, man, there's so much I'm excited to talk about. I feel like, yes, we've got. This Easter lesson really centers around the idea that resurrection is this huge grand victory for all. And it is. But as I look at it and as I've really been studying it this last little bit, you know, I have realized and felt how very personal and intimate of an experience it is for each of us. So I feel like as I've been focusing on the timeline and the events of Friday through Sunday specifically, I've seen more and more how many opportunities there are to see ourselves in these people that we're reading about and their experiences. Spending some time in John 20 and Luke 24. Thinking back to when you first reached out to me, I texted back, and I immediately was like, oh, Hank, I think you got the wrong person. This is Courtney. I'm the one that does the cakes. You assured me that it wasn't a mistake. And after saying yes and talking about it for a minute, of course had some. Some doubts creep in. And I was thinking to myself, I don't know what I just got myself into. So naturally, I text my mom and my sister and tell them what's going on, and they're both familiar with the show and both listen. And my sister responded immediately and was like, oh, that's awesome. I can't wait. Then my mom responded. We just kind of laugh. By the way, she knows I'm saying this, so I'm not just throwing her under the bus.
- [10:38]
Hank Smith
Okay, okay.
- [10:39]
Courtney Rich
But her text was, oh, my Gosh. Wow. That's a lot of pressure. Their guest list is usually comprised of incredible experts of the Dead Sea Scrolls and Joseph Smith papers and scriptures. She kind of goes on and she goes, you'll be great.
- [10:57]
Hank Smith
You'll be fine.
- [10:57]
Courtney Rich
That's a lot of pressure. I text back and like, thanks, Mom. Yeah, no, I know. I knew that coming to you to build me up a little bit there. And she did. She built me up plenty. But I was still thinking about that later that day, and I was walking through my house and headed up to my bedroom, I kind of started having this conversation with myself, just of, no, really, actually, what did I just sign myself up for? I'm not qualified. I've listened to this podcast. I know the type of people, the experts that are on there. And I said to myself, what do I even know? And right as those words are here, the Spirit very clearly whispered to me, you know me. And I stopped and I said out loud, yes, I do. And I just. This wave of comfort and reassurance. I am not on here to give you the perfect timeline of all the historical events. I can't quote Scripture without looking it up and writing it down and remembering it. But I know my Savior, Jesus Christ, and I've had some personal experiences with him that have helped me understand what that relationship really looks like. And that is something I can testify of and that I can share. That kind of started me down this line of questioning. What does it mean to know our Savior and how does that happen? How does it change us ultimately? How does that make us or help us become a witness of Him? As I started looking through the Easter lesson, I was looking at D&C, 110, but also the accounts in the New Testament. I really felt like these events that took place and the experiences that Mary had and the disciples had, they give us a lot of answers and insight to those questions that I was thinking about. So I feel very connected to Mary Magdalene in a lot of ways. So I'm going to start with her story. But I was thinking just to give us a roadmap of what we're going to get into the next little bit, breaking up into actually four experiences recorded within Luke 24, John 20, and actually a little bit into John 21, if we have time. So we'll start with Mary, who I feel like really teaches us so much, specifically about having personal experiences with Christ, what it means to seek him, to witness of him, to know him, his voice, and ultimately how we learn that he knows each of us by name. Another moment in those scriptures. Cleopas and his friend, his traveling buddy, on the road to Emmaus, where we learn a lot about expectations and trusting the Lord. There's some things there that stood out to me. And then also when Christ appears to the disciples, who, like many of us, need to be reminded of the things that we've learned and the experiences we've had. And we'll go back even into DNC and talk about Oliver Cowdery a little bit there too, if we do have a little time. I'd love to. To go where in John 21, where Christ appears to Simon and the disciples again after the events of the Resurrection and we learn what it really means to take upon his name and be disciples and be witnesses of Him. Are we feeling okay about that?
- [14:11]
Hank Smith
That is fantastic. You just hit a couple of stories where I went, oh, that's great. Oh, I love that one, too.
- [14:18]
John Bytheway
I'm thinking about the fact that isn't it wonderful that every year the Come follow me curriculum focuses on or revolves around a certain book of Scripture. However, every year we have an Easter episode because none of this happens without Easter. We get to today be very broad and we can look at the New Testament. We can look at the Doctrine and Covenants too, as we talk about Easter.
- [14:42]
Hank Smith
That's fantastic. John, having known you for quite a while and you've known me for quite a while, we both have experienced some funerals of beloved people. Both of us have buried our parents. Those are moments where time seems to stand still for just a minute. You get to do a deep search in your soul. I can't remember who it was that said, death makes us all children again, where expertise means nothing. It's you and your grief that also can be quenched by, really, in my mind, only one thing, and that is Easter. Right. And what we celebrate there.
- [15:30]
John Bytheway
Really well put. How did Elder Maxwell put it? Eventually, you're backed up to the wall of faith and you're. Do I believe this, Hank? I bet you did what I did. You had that one last time when you touched the casket of your mom and your dad. Looking forward to. Can I touch mom and dad again? Can I embrace them again? Because of Easter, all of that hope comes back. There's going to be a separation for a time, but because of Easter, it's going to be brought back.
- [16:04]
Hank Smith
Yeah. It's an expectation, right, John? It's not a. Well, I sure hope so. It's a fully expect. I love it.
- [16:13]
Courtney Rich
Let's dive in. I love Mary for so many reasons and I feel like I relate to her stories. We'll talk about her experience at the tomb and two very magnificent moments that she had. So we'll come back to those in just a moment. But I think it's important to talk about and remember Mary before the resurrection of Christ and to remember what her story is and where she came from. We know that Mary had a really hard life before meeting Jesus and before being healed. We don't know all the details. We know that the scriptures talk about evil spirits, that Christ healed her of torment. She struggled, she was in pain and I'm guessing felt very alone. Probably forgotten things that you and I have probably felt and can relate to. I mean, the trials of mortality. And really, while we maybe don't know exactly what she experienced or maybe it's different from what we experienced, we could put ourselves in her shoes. We can think of ourselves as her. She represents us in so many ways because of what she was going through and living through, the trials of mortality. And when she meets Jesus, he heals her. He changed her life. She has this very deeply personal experience with him, one that bound her to him. But after years and years of pain, she became free of this unthinkable burden. And it was replaced with a deeply personal and unforgettable witness of the Savior and his divine power, mercy and kindness. And I just keep thinking about this personal experience she had with Jesus Christ, because it was then that she followed him and she followed him throughout his ministry, serving him, testifying of him. And there she was at the cross and up before dawn on Sunday morning. Think about that. She's been with him for how many years now? All this time, every day, and suddenly he's gone. We read in John 20 that she runs after she sees that the stone has moved, she goes inside, she doesn't see his body, and she runs to Simon and the other disciple, which we know is John. And then they both run. You know how there's certain words or things that stand out to you as you're reading in Scriptures, but the word run or ran is usually one that I circle. I do love to run, actually, I'm a runner. But I also just love that when it mentions that in the Scriptures there's commitment there. Running somewhere is a commitment. Running means there's purpose. You could be excited, it could be from fear. It could be a race, an exercise. But you never run on accident. That's never an accidental thing, an accidental running. How many times in the Scriptures is talks of men and women running to the Lord or on his errand. And it gets me excited about those stories. And I think about the urgency that Mary and the disciples probably felt throughout all of this. They run back and, you know, it's interesting because Simon and John, they're there. They see that the body is gone. I don't know what they expected. I mean, nothing like this has ever happened. I don't know really what they expected, why they didn't remember the things that they had been taught. But they left. We'll come back to their remembering and expectations in a little bit. So staying focused on Mary right now. Mary stayed. She stood and she stayed. And there's so much in this moment. And just that sentence. There was a quote that I read by Gay Strathern in an article called Women at the Tomb. Lessons from Disciples of Christ, When Heaven Feels closed. Mary wasn't in the garden by accident. She was there because ever since the Savior had ministered to her, she had given her time and means to minister to Him. I don't believe that she was at the tomb just out of responsibility to prepare the body for burial, but that she came because she loved the Lord, knew of his divine mission, and longed to. To be with Him. Because even though she found an empty tomb, she stayed after others left because she stayed. She had these two magnificent, very personal and intimate experiences. You know, as I read that in the last couple months, as I've been thinking about that, like, it wasn't by accident. Her commitment to the Lord was so deep, so strong, so meaningful, that even after he was gone, her heart aching, not knowing exactly what was going to be happening next, she went to him or where she thought he was seeking Him. It made me think and ponder the last little while, like, where do I stay? Where do I stand as I seek Him? And what does that look like in our own lives? Are we taking the time to stay, to find him, to look?
- [21:03]
Hank Smith
I really like what you've pointed out here, that she stays like you. I don't know what they expected, but I think it's not this. I think John tells us this was not what we had thought was going to happen. We'll all hit moments like that where, no, this was not part of the plan. This was not supposed to happen. In fact, the exact opposite was supposed to happen. That we stay, we stick around. It's not like those disciples were going to talk about here in Luke 24, didn't you know he died? It's over. That wasn't supposed to happen. It obviously wasn't what I thought it was.
- [21:44]
Courtney Rich
I love that, her relationship, and just how much she loves the Lord. And I imagine that connection, that personal experience, that bond and that bound her to him, that even though it's not what she expected and he's gone, and she probably thought she had more time with him than they had, that connection was so strong, her testimony of him, so strong, that she stayed even when there was the unknown. And it was because of that personal experience. I imagine as I just think of my own experiences with the Lord, I'm like, that's something that changes you.
- [22:20]
John Bytheway
I'm looking at John 20, where you took us. It always was amazing to me. And I have to remember, these Gospels were written later. You read John 29. As yet they knew not the Scripture, that he must rise again from the dead. And you're like, where have you guys been? Haven't you been listening? They had that. Oh, yeah, he said that, didn't he? When the Gospels were actually written, like you said, I want to read verse 10. Then the disciples went away. First they ran there, and then they went away unto their own home. Verse 11. But Mary stood without. At the sepulcher, weeping. She stayed, as you said. I'm going to mark those now because I really like that idea. As they. Huh. And then they went away, but Mary stayed.
- [23:13]
Courtney Rich
We have the moments, too. And we'll talk more about the disciples. The forgetfulness that we sometimes have that's so relatable. Like, how many times do we have to be told certain things? Those are the two words that I have underlined in 11. Mary stood. She stayed. And what does that mean? I think about her and I think about her personal experience. I've had my own. That really changed my life. For most of my adult life, actually, I struggled with depression and anxiety from about the age of 18. You know, not something I think most people would look at when they take a glance at social media. And for many years, even the people in my closest circle were very unaware of what I was experiencing. And definitely something that it just wasn't talked about very much as I was going through it. You're trying to find peace and solutions to how I was feeling. And mine kind of just felt tangled and confused a lot of times. Feeling happy felt impossible sometimes. And I wondered what was wrong with me. But truly, like the darkest moments, I would cry out to my heavenly Father, asking to feel him. Most of the time, honestly, I couldn't. And to be frank, it felt disappointing. I was disappointed in him. I was disappointed in myself. I thought for many years, like, I think I'm doing everything right. I'm trying so hard. What's wrong with me that I can't feel him and see him the way others did? During this time, I graduated college, I got married, I was working in media consulting, I started a family. So my trials didn't go away. Cause I was praying and hoping that they would get better. And I started the cake journey. Throughout all of that, it was interesting. When I started cake by Courtney, not long into it, I started getting called an influencer. We hear that term more and more. And I was like, oh, that's not something I expected. But I definitely had to start thinking about, like, what kind of influence did I want to be? And I would get questions about my family and even my faith. And I kind of wrestled with it because during that time actually was having a really big kind of internal battle in some of my darkest days as I struggled understanding my self worth. And this is in my 30s, like I was about 36 at the time. And I really didn't know what my relationship was with the Savior and if he saw me because I was still battling and fighting my demons, trying to plead for his light in my life and for my trial to be lifted. And I still very much felt alone and unseen by Him. And I was trying to figure it out. And I was in this moment of like, really, I've got to figure this out, because I need to know for myself, for my kids, for my family. And it was interesting. Right around that same time, as life would have it, I got invited to attend a women's conference. It's kind of a small, intimate one. And there was one challenge, kind of one requirement to be a part of it and to go was to study the life of Christ. So you may remember when President Nelson shared that he spent some time and invited others. I think he started with the young single adults and then the youth, and gave that invitation to many to go through the topical guide and read all the scriptures of Jesus Christ. And I said, okay, I'm going all in on this. And for the entire summer, I read every single one of those scriptures, prayed every night that I would be able to feel him and see him in my life. Of course I wanted to be healed, I wanted my mind to be fixed. But ultimately I wanted to feel Him. And that was something that I really struggled with. So I went to that retreat, I listened to those speakers, I prayed. I just hoped for a moment where maybe, I don't know, the clouds would part and angels would come down. I don't know you kind of like, I need this moment. And nothing was happening. I was two days into this retreat, and I remember thinking to myself, wow, okay, maybe this gospel isn't for me. Very last day, very last speaker. I'm in the very back of the room by myself, actually. And I heard the words so clearly, and it was, there's a place for you. I need you. I need you. I remember feeling speechless and looking around, like, did anybody else hear that? I'd never had an experience like that. I haven't since. It was soft, but it was very clear. It was Christ, and he did see me and he did know me. After all those years of being angry and upset towards Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, like, they still wanted me. And it was this moment of, like, no, I wasn't healed. All of a sudden, my trials just didn't go away. But that burden I had been feeling and carrying for so long didn't quite seem so heavy. I just remember having this, like, new sense of hope. But truly, the sense of change came over me. This very personal experience with Jesus Christ that I just had made me feel different. It made me feel changed. My whole identity, my whole purpose, even felt changed. And I wonder if that's how Mary felt. Where then she goes and she follows him, and she's with him and she's ministering to him. As I read about her getting up before dawn and running to the tomb, and she ran to tell Simon and John, and she stayed at the tomb, and she did that because she loved him and she was forever changed because of her experience with him. I just imagine she couldn't even picture herself without him near. So she was still so earnestly seeking him and waiting for him. I think of my own experience, and I think, yeah, that's me. I am earnestly seeking him whenever I can, because I want to feel that presence with me as often and as much as I can in my life.
- [28:57]
Hank Smith
Courtney, what you just told us about, that's important. I can't imagine how many of our listeners are going, that's me. I've been struggling with my own internal battle for years and years. And yet you had that experience. John, do you remember Joseph Smith? Everyone is telling him, you didn't have that experience. You may think you did, but you did not have it. And he responds with, I had seen a light, and in the midst of that light, I saw two personages, and they did. I love this. In reality. Speak to me, he said, people are persecuting me and telling me I didn't have this experience. And I bet both of you can quote this. I knew it. I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it. So, Courtney, I see you. I see Mary in that same way. Listen, he may have died, and I may be confused, but I had my experience with him, so I'm staying.
- [29:58]
John Bytheway
I feel like so many of our listeners are going to relate to Courtney's story. We have some pretty amazing scholars on here, Hank. But many of our listeners are maybe thinking, I'm just me, member of the anonymous 4th Ward and the anonymous stake, and nobody knows me.
- [30:16]
Hank Smith
And how do you get in that ward, John?
- [30:19]
John Bytheway
That's a. Yeah, I moved a lot of records there.
- [30:25]
Courtney Rich
Yeah.
- [30:27]
John Bytheway
For Courtney to mention that. I feel like there's so many who may go, oh, he sees me, too. Yeah, he sees you, and you're needed. There's a place for you. And the Savior sees every single one of us, and suddenly all the stations and the degrees and whatever go away. He sees every individual. What a beautiful message. That's a very personal experience. Thanks for sharing that with us.
- [30:53]
Courtney Rich
You look at her experience and how she was changed, and I never thought I'd have a moment like that. I went through so many years feeling like that wasn't gonna happen to me. What would that look like for me? And I can look back. It's easy to connect the dots when you look back. I just see how even through Cake and all this journey, even in the last decade, he's found me in the kitchen, and he has come to me, and he was there all along, really. Spending time with him in the scriptures and learning of him has taught me that he lives, taught me that he is a part of our story each day here, how important that is for us to have a witness of that, because how meaningful that is. You know, we can read about these stories and learn so much, but there's a part where he's hearing our stories and how impactful that is to see him with us right here in our midst. But I know it can be hard, and I really struggled being able to see that for a long time. My heart goes out to anyone who's feeling that way right now. And I love that Mary teaches us, just stay. Just stay. Keep seeking.
- [32:02]
Hank Smith
Stay with it.
- [32:04]
Courtney Rich
Yeah.
- [32:05]
Hank Smith
The Come Follow Me manual has this two sentences. Most of us have not seen Jesus Christ as the prophet Joseph Smith did, but we can know, as he did, that the Savior lives. And your story, Courtney, reminded me, he knows our successes and struggles. He will help us in times of need.
- [32:27]
Courtney Rich
Amen. Looking at John 20 we know that she was then visited by two angels who asked, why weepest thou? And after that, she says, you know, if you've taken my Lord, I don't know where they've laid him. She turns away. So she's not looking at the angels. But then she looks back and she sees Jesus, quickly learns back. You know, it says she doesn't recognize him.
- [32:53]
Hank Smith
Yeah. Doesn't know who he is. Yeah.
- [32:55]
Courtney Rich
And you're thinking, wait a second, wait, we just talked about this personal experience. She must know him so well. How did she not know him? And you guys can probably speak to this better than I can, but I'm just kind of imagining as I close my eyes here and I think about this Mary, who is so sad if I have tears in my eyes because I'm a crier, so I would, like, have tears in my eyes. And if she has her covering on her head, if she looks and she sees a man there, she maybe quickly looked back. Maybe that was custom of the time. I don't know. But that's kind of what I'm just assuming. So she doesn't know it's him. She looks back to where her sight was the opposite direction. Jesus says to her, why weepest thou, whom seekest thou? She says, sir, if thou has borne him hence, tell me where thou has laid him, and I will take him away. And then in verse 16, Jesus saith unto her, mary. And she turned herself and saith unto him Rabboni, which is to say, master. So she's not looking at him when he says, Mary. And he calls her by name. And that's when she knows, like, she knows his voice. She knows that he knows her as well. Like, I love that relationship there. Not only does she hear her name, she knows that voice, but she also knows him so well that she knows he knows her by name. I love that moment between them when I started to, like, really earnestly seek him and spend time in the Scriptures, learning about his life, trying to listen to his words and follow him. It was then that I really knew his voice in my own life and that I could recognize it. I think that's why, like, I really was able to have that moment in the back of the room by myself at this conference because I really had poured everything into him. I felt so, so desperate at the time to know him and to know that he knew me. I imagine it was Mary's personal experience with him that time, serving him and ministering to him, learning from him and of him and witnessing of him, that caused her to turn instantly when he said her name, Mary. Because she not only knew his voice, but she also knew he knew her by name.
- [35:23]
Hank Smith
We realize the scriptures are in black and white, but we have to read them in color. That moment changes everything. I mean, not just her life, but her entire world. Our entire world. Here is the first conversation of the risen Lord. Like you said, she kind of represents all of us. Sad and disappointed, confused. Where's his body? Someone took away his body. And then the fact that he doesn't say who he is right off the bat tells me a little bit about him. Why are you crying? Are you looking for someone? You think, right? You think that she might be. So I just wonder if it's a little bit. His personality is setting up this perfect moment.
- [36:12]
Courtney Rich
And it was such a perfect moment. It really just was so beautiful as I imagine it playing out as I was, like, thinking about it. And Mary turns from the Lord. She knows that there's a man there, and she turns away from Him. It just kind of made me think of even, like, our human nature and mortality, that there are moments in our lives that we are going to maybe turn away from the Lord, that there are moments that we won't be looking at Him. There are going to be setbacks or doubts or questions or challenges that we may find ourselves that we have turned away from the Lord. But how neat is it? There's three words. Turned herself back. That he provides a way that this great plan of salvation, his atoning sacrifice, allows us, gives us this gift of repentance, that we are always able to turn back to him and to recognize him, because he is a God of many chances and he doesn't turn away from us.
- [37:11]
Hank Smith
Courtney, how have I never seen this before? John, why do our guests do this to us? I feel so foolish. It's right in front of me. Courtney says she's no expert here. She is showing me things I've never seen before. Courtney, we can have experiences that are so painful that we turn away. It's so hard. And then he calls to us, and look what she does. She turned around. She turned to him. I'm looking at these other Christian Standard Bible Translation. Turning around. What a lesson. You know, whatever reason Mary's turned around, we often turn away and the Lord turn around. Come back to me. That's beautiful.
- [37:56]
Courtney Rich
Made me actually think, too of Isaiah 43:1 5. I just have a couple of the lines written down because again, just that personal relationship of turn back to me. Like you said, he calls to her. He calls her by Name. And in Isaiah 43, some of my favorite Scriptures, fear not, I have redeemed thee. I have called thee by name. Thou art mine. I will be with thee. Skipping ahead. Thou wast precious in my sight. I have loved thee. Fear not, I am with thee. And I just love how that describes that connection and that relationship when he calls Mary by name. And truly, each of us that thee, thou, that is you he is talking to. And as you read that, fear not, I have redeemed you. I have called you Courtney Rich by name. Thou art mine. I will be with you. As we insert ourselves into these Scriptures, it's no longer he's there in the Scriptures. No, we put ourselves there, and he's with us now. He lives. If you go to D and C. 110. And in verse four, when the Lord appears to Joseph and Oliver, he introduces himself. I am the first and the last. I am he who liveth. I am he who was slain. I am your advocate with the Father and in the living Christ. We solemnly testify that his life, which is central to all human history, neither began in Bethlehem nor concluded on Calvary. He was the firstborn of the Father, the only begotten Son in the flesh, the Redeemer of the world. This is so important. This is how he's often introducing himself. He was with us from the beginning, and he will be with us until the end. He's not just in our story, he's actually actively a part of our story. And how important it is to know that he has known us that long from the beginning until the end. And I love that word, advocate. Actually, during Christmas time, we've got a, like, wooden round centerpiece that has little openings for candles to put around. And there's 25. And each circle has one of the names of Christ on it. And I asked my kids to pick their favorite name. I'm like, look at all the names of Christ. Which one is your favorite? And my son Weston, who's 16, he quickly picked out advocate. And I said, okay, so why were you drawn to that one? Why is that your favorite? And he told me how he thinks about my brother. So his uncle Chris, my brother is an attorney. He just said, I just think of Chris and, like, how hard he works for his clients. Like, he works nonstop. He's trying to keep families together. He's doing everything he can to help these people. And then Weston said, I just imagine Jesus doing that for me. Like, he's going to do everything he can to help me. He's going to, because he does know us so well. And as we get to know Him, I think we understand that even more. But he knows us since the beginning. He knows mortality is hard, but he's promised that he'll always be there. As we wait upon him and we seek him, we'll find him, and we'll see how he's there for each of us.
- [41:11]
John Bytheway
Do you know what else I love about this is verse 15. She supposing him to be the gardener. And I thought, how often have we thought, why isn't the Savior here? Why isn't he helping me? Actually, he was right there. She just didn't recognize Him. And then, as you've both talked about, she turned herself around. She turned herself and saw Him. Perhaps when we think he's not there, he really is, we're just not seeing him.
- [41:41]
Hank Smith
I think Hubie Brown would love that verse, right? I am the gardener here. I know what I want you to be. I have to do a quick shout out to my friend Ashley Stone. I don't know if either of you know Ashley, but she runs the Comeback podcast, and I just thought of that with what Courtney taught us. Turning around, you can come back. I love it. I love what Ashley does. I love what Courtney has just showed us. Courtney, what do we do next?
- [42:10]
Courtney Rich
Okay, I'm gonna switch gears and I'm gonna go over to Luke 24. Cause we get the story about Cleopas and a friend or another traveler. They don't mention his name, but they're walking the road to Emmaus. And as they're walking, they're talking about the events of what's just happened. The crucifixion, the resurrection, and Jesus appears. So maybe he just walked up right behind them and joined them. But again, they don't know know that it's him. And I'm again imagining maybe the Chosen has helped me visualize a lot of things. And so I'm thinking, okay, does he have a hood on? Or they're just so focused in their conversation. There's so many analogies here. The way we can also apply it to our lives. The things that they're focused on and thinking about and what they're looking for versus what they should be looking for. But either way, they don't know it's him. They start telling him what's going on.
- [43:03]
Hank Smith
And they're like, do you live under a rock?
- [43:05]
Courtney Rich
Yeah.
- [43:06]
Hank Smith
He's like, what's going on?
- [43:08]
Courtney Rich
Where have you been? So they start sharing those. And this verse stood out to me in one word specifically. This is Luke 24, 21. But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel. And beside all this, today is the first, third day since these things were done. I got stuck on that word trusted, past tense. We trusted. I sat there for a minute, for a while, for the weeks even, that I've been studying and thinking about this trusted. Like, did they stop trusting when that didn't go the way they had expected? Where were their minds going? How frustrated were they? What were they expecting? Expecting to happen? I get nothing like that had ever happened before. So they probably didn't even know. But how this applies to us and how quickly sometimes, like we even mentioned earlier, I mean, we all probably have our whole life planned out. We have expectations. We know what we want to happen. Even when we're praying for something to happen, we're probably thinking, or maybe this is just me. But I'm like, heavenly Father, I really could use this situation to unfold like this. And I've come up with a great plan for it to unfold the way I need it to unfold. So if you could just make that happen, that'd be great. And then it doesn't happen those ways. And we're kind of at a loss sometimes. And there had been something on my heart that I had been talking to the Lord about for a couple years. Actually, a couple years ago, he I finally got an answer, and this was something that was going to impact our family in a very big way, a very big decision, decision that we needed to make. And it was a decision with an action that we didn't quite know what was going to happen after that. The whole picture wasn't there, but it was, you need to do this. Then you're kind of like, all right, well, I hope more answers come. We're still kind of waiting on the other side of what those answers were supposed to be. But I got confirmation in several ways that we were supposed to make this big decision and change our lives in this very big way. We've been in this waiting period for over a year now for kind of the other side of the answers. You know, I felt like I'm in this space of where I'm trying to hold everything up. The weight on my shoulders is feeling heavier than it's ever felt. And I was talking to my mom recently, and I just said to her, I don't know what else I can do. I feel like I'm doing all the things I'm supposed to. Maybe I'm not praying for the right thing or asking the right thing. So I'm changing my prayer to heavenly Father, what am I supposed to be asking for? What am I not seeing? What am I doing wrong? I'm going through all these things. And my mom just paused for a minute after I was talking, and she said, but have you asked him to take it from you? All that weight? Have you asked him to take it from you? No. No, I hadn't. That thought hadn't even crossed my mind. And that brought the idea of trust, the level of trust that I have in my Savior, like, to a whole new level for me. Because, yes, I trust and trusted him enough to make the decision and kind of guide my family on this decision and the confirmations that we've had. I've continued to trust that things are going to work out. But as I feel the burdens heavier on my shoulders, have I really trusted that I could give it to him and turn it over to him? And, like, what does that look like? I think of the disciples in the boat rowing. How many hours was it? Like, nine. And I'm at the point where I feel like I actually can't row anymore. I actually don't feel that I can do that. I need him to take it from me. That's just been something that's just been sitting with me, this idea of, okay, what does trust really look like? Not the past tense, but, like, being in the moments of the waiting and the rowing and trusting not only that things will work out, but that he can actually take it and hold that burden with me and make it lighter for me.
- [47:30]
Hank Smith
Wow. I love Luke 24. That's this. I have a very unmet expectation Jesus is going to come in Jerusalem, he's going to throw off the Romans, he's going to redeem Israel, and we're going to be back in our own government. And he doesn't just not do that. He does the exact opposite of that. And he dies. So disappointed as they're walking back, you know, we thought it was him. I really thought he was the guy. Obviously, he's not. He's dead. And Jesus is just walking with them. It's just such a beautiful moment. He says, you fools. They got to be, Hey, I thought you didn't know anything about this.
- [48:21]
John Bytheway
Yeah, Hank, I've heard you talk beautifully about this story. I know you love this story because of the unmet expectation, which is like, welcome to life. Life is. I expected this. And how come I'm getting this so often? And for me, one of my favorite verses is verse 32. There's one funny reason, but there's another, more profound reason. One funny reason is they said, hey, wait a minute. Did not our heart burn within us while he talked with us, by the way? And I just like that by the way's in there. That's the funny reason. The other reason is I feel like most of my life I have not known the Lord was present in the moment, but I looked back and went, hey, wait a minute. I think the Lord was helping me. And I didn't even know it at the time. This is what they're saying, wait a minute. Did our heart not burn within us while he talked with us, by the way? It had already happened. And they're going, hey, he was right there with us. I didn't realize it. And that's the story of my life. Almost every book I ever wrote is called what I Wish I'd Known Because I'm so slow.
- [49:29]
Hank Smith
And Courtney, that fits what you just said. I have expectations. John frequently reminds me that it's faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, not faith in outcomes. Not faith in, hey, I got my plan going here. You're going to roll this out the way I think you are. That's what I have my faith in. It's faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. And sometimes we just slip into the. No, no, no. Faith in outcomes.
- [49:56]
Courtney Rich
Yeah. Even if. Moments. I trust that this is gonna work, but even if it doesn't, I am still here. Like, I will not leave you. I will still have faith and I will still trust. Those moments are hard. Those are the ones that really, I think, refine us and push us. Because it would be easy to just say, nope, that was not fair. That was not how I expected, I'm done. And he pushes us, and it's hard. And through life's experiences, the more you have these moments and you see the outcomes whenever they come, tomorrow, the next month, year, years down the road, you realize, okay, no, it's. His plan was better than I could have ever imagined. And that answer was worth waiting for. Did our hearts not burn within us? We could just go to this next part about the disciples too. Because this whole idea of, how did we forget that? Like, how did we forget that? And how many times the Lord needs to remind us. Sometimes subtly, sometimes not so subtly. Like even when we look in DNC6 when he's talking to Oliver Cowdery. And Oliver had already received such a personal divine manifestation of the truth of the prophet's testimony respecting the plates, but he's again questioning his role in the Work. And in section 6, verse 23, did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? It actually makes me feel a little better. I'm not the only one who needs reminding these great disciples, Oliver, you know, each of us can turn our. Not, maybe not our whole path away from the Lord, but sometimes even just our mind and our focus gets turned away. These reminders are like, hold on, let me turn you back in the right direction. Let me help you remember that you have had these experiences that I've been here all along.
- [51:54]
Hank Smith
Courtney, I'm glad you brought this story up. John has a great thought about it. John, you know what I'm going to say.
- [52:00]
John Bytheway
Yeah. And it was actually Joseph Fielding McConkian taught us that Oliver got a revelation to tell him he'd already received a revelation.
- [52:13]
Hank Smith
It's funny, Courtney, that we have to get revelation to remind us we talked about this.
- [52:18]
Courtney Rich
Yeah, yeah. It's also comforting to know that, like, okay, yeah, we're going to have those moments, but the Lord is here to also remind us. Like, it's easy to forget or even doubt the promptings. I think that's even something I've seen more so in my life. Like, I will have a prompting. You will later doubt those promptings or the whisperings that we've had from the spirit. Actually, when we were called to the Young Women Advisory Council, President Freeman gave us each a little notebook. Nothing special as far as how it looks. And she called it the Book of Evidences. And she said, over the next five years, during this calling, I hope that you will write down where you see evidences of the Lord in your life. I have been writing in that book the last couple years. It's amazing how you forget things and how peaceful and comforting it can be to reread those accounts. But I had one. As I talked about this big decision and these things that are going on right now in our life and in our family, and we're waiting for this other side of the answer. When that initial guidance came and what to do came, I had three witnesses, very clear experiences that confirmed to me that that's what we needed to do. Fast forward to today almost two years from that initial, like, prompting and a year since making that decision. The rest of it hasn't come, like I said. And I was recently feeling discouraged. Even before I was talking to my mom about it, I was starting to question even my own divine experiences. And I had written them down. But as this was happening the other day, the thought Came to me. The whispering said, write down what you know. I opened my book of evidences, and on a new page, I just made a list of things I know. I know that God lives. I know Jesus Christ lives. I know that they love me. I know that they see me. And I wrote down again the experiences that I had that led me to the decision with my family that we needed to make. And then how interesting. Like a week later, we're getting into DNC 20. And in verse 17, it says, the things we know to be true. They're talking about the things that have happened and that are going to happen. And because these things happened, we know these things to be true. That peace and comfort came back over me. I know that these things are true. I've had my evidences. I've got my book of evidences. And because I know these things are true, I know that I've had this experience. I know God lives. I know my Savior loves me. I know that things will work out. And I don't know what that looks like, but I hold strong to the things that I know right now. Those truths give me strength and hope and remind me that I'm not alone. And President Nelson, on several occasions, I believe, has encouraged us to write down our spiritual experiences so that when we have our hearts burn within us, we're not saying to ourselves, oh, yeah, didn't our hearts burn within us? Like, we can really go back to it and remember it and have those evidences in our lives that we're trying to pay more attention to.
- [55:40]
Hank Smith
And they're pretty typical, aren't they? I knew it the whole time. I never even doubted for a second. Just to give you a second witness of what you taught us earlier. They kind of like Mary, go back to Jerusalem. They were on their way out of Jerusalem. I make this like their faith, their church, their belief. They're walking away. Jesus stops them as they're walking away. Are you sure you want to leave? Let's talk for a minute. And they immediately. I think some translations say that very hour they turned around and went back.
- [56:15]
John Bytheway
Love that. That's verse 33. They rose up the same hour and returned to Jerusalem and found the 11 gathered together and them that were with them saying, the Lord is risen indeed and hath appeared to Simon. I mean, here comes that. Oh, this is not what we expected, but this is awesome.
- [56:35]
Hank Smith
This is even better, right?
- [56:37]
Courtney Rich
Better, Exactly. Usually that's how it ends up. It is better than we expected. And how grateful I am for the God of many chances for the many times that he's willing to remind me that he's been there, remind me, and help me turn back to him.
- [56:59]
Hank Smith
Coming up in part two of this.
- [57:01]
Courtney Rich
Episode, when you reach up for the Lord's power in your life with the same intensity that a drowning person has when grasping and gasping for air, power from Jesus Christ will be yours.