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- [00:00]
A
Coming up in this episode on Follow Hip.
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But we've got the waters of creation that were seen as good turned to blood. We've got the dust from which man is created turned to lice. Now we've got these swarms of flies throughout the air. Now that which was created and seen as good in the beginning has all been corrupted as we go through these plagues.
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A
Hello my friends. Welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My is name. My name is Hank Smith. I am your host. I'm here with my co host without blemish, John. By the way, John, you are an unblemished co host.
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B
You really are.
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A
You're good looking.
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C
I used to work for Clarisil, but then after the Accutane, I am now without blemish.
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A
Yeah, you are without blemish, John. We are excited to be joined by our friend Dave Hadlock today. We've known Dave for many and many years. Both of us welcome Dave. Welcome to Follow Him.
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B
Thank you for having me. This is awesome.
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A
Yeah, this is exciting. I've been looking forward to this for a long time. It's always fun to be with friends. We have met Moses. Now we are going to watch Egypt fall. What have you been thinking about as you've been preparing?
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C
I think it's such an amazing story. I also think that if our listeners are like me, they're coming at it. Having seen the movie the Ten Commandments and Prince of Egypt, it's going to be exciting to go into the scriptures and see what they actually teach us about Jehovah through the years.
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A
John, I've found that there's a lot more going on here with these 10 plagues than just random 10 plagues.
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C
Dave's here to tell us about that.
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A
Dave, what are we going to do today?
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B
What are you looking forward to? Well, I want to jump on your adjective train. Hard and harden. Speaking about the pharaoh and his heart. Stinking. Stinketh. The river stinks from the dead fish. They were heavy with burdens and plagues. They partook of bitter herbs. Bitter was one of our adjectives. Dead and dark. I've spent a lot of time with you two, my good friends over the years in some hot and humid places. To me you stinketh not. And my wife said that the only thing hard about you guys is you're hard not to love. Darcy, I'm just grateful you're having me on here. Good friends. We love you and your families and thanks for having me.
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A
Oh, absolutely.
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B
Where I want to go today is I want to look at the keys of Moses as they relate to the events of the Exodus. Our Chapters are Exodus 7 through 13, but we're going to be taking a much broader look at the book of Exodus in context of the keys of Moses.
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A
John, tell us about Dave. You and I know him well, but what do our listeners need to know?
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C
Yes, Dave has spent more than 20 years leading tours to religious sites, historical sites. He founded Bountiful Travel. He is also known, though, for his thoughtful teaching, his great scriptural insight, and his relaxed, engaging style. I love listening to Dave teach. His academic background includes graduate work in Ancient Near Eastern studies with an emphasis in Biblical Hebrew. He's got a love of people, he's fun, he's brilliant, and he has an enthusiasm for the scriptures that is very contagious for you and for me. Hank, Dave is our friend and I've looked forward to this for a long time. Thanks for being on our podcast.
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B
Thanks for having me. I appreciate that. Intro.
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A
Yeah, Dave has a wonderful company, Bountiful travel. He takes people all over the world. And there's an element to traveling with Dave of you're not just going to travel and see some things. You're going to come home different because of what Dave teaches. Let me read from the Come follow me manual. Then Dave, John and I are ready to learn from you. The title this week is Remember this day in which he came out from Egypt. Plague after plague afflicted Egypt, but Pharaoh still refused to release the Israelites. And yet God continued to demonstrate his power and give Pharaoh opportunities to accept that I am the Lord and there is none like me in all the earth. Meanwhile, Moses and the Israelites must have watched with awe at these manifestations of God's power on their behalf. Surely these continued signs confirmed their faith in God and strengthened their willingness to follow God's prophet. Then, after nine terrible plagues had failed to free the Israelites, it was the tenth plague, the death of the firstborn, including Pharaoh's firstborn, that finally ended the captivity. This seems fitting because in every case of spiritual captivity, there is truly only one way to escape. It is only the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the firstborn, the blood of the lamb without blemish, that will save us. Dave, with that, how do we want to start? Where do you want to go?
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B
I want to start with the story of Jonah to put in perspective the importance of scriptures in my own life. If we go to the Book of Jonah. The book of Jonah is written in parallel fashion. The first two chapters are paralleled by the second two chapters. So 1 and 2 are paralleled by chapters 3 and 4 in Jonah. Chapter 1, it says, the word of the Lord came unto Jonah, the son of Amai, saying, arise. Go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it, for their wickedness has come up before me. Jonah is commanded by Jehovah to go to the people of Nineveh, preach repentance unto them. Jonah's response to this, if you'll recall, is to do what?
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C
Go the other way.
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B
I'm out of here. I'm going to Tarshish. So he leaves from there, goes to a place called Jaffa, where he gets on a ship to go to Tarshish. Why might a prophet of the Lord have taken off to Tarshish instead of going to the people of Nineveh to preach repentance?
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A
I'm just thinking of veggietales, so you might have to go with me on.
- [06:19]
B
That's exactly where I go too. It's the slap fish people. The fish slappers, yeah. Jonah in chapter four gives us a hint regarding why he takes off and does not want to go preach repentance unto the people of Nineveh. Jonah 4 says in verse 1 that Jonah was exceedingly angry. Now, what's he angry about? If we go back one verse to chapter three, verse ten, God saw the works of the people of Nineveh and that they turned from their evil way. And God repented of the evil that he said he would do unto them, and he did it not. Jonah goes into Nineveh, preaches repentance, and the people repent. What does Jehovah do? He forgives the people. He doesn't destroy them. Jonah's response to this should have been a good thing. But what's Jonah's response? He's angry that Jehovah doesn't destroy the people of Nineveh. Verse 2. Jonah prayed unto the Lord and said, I pray thee, O Lord, Was not this my saying when I was yet in my country? Didn't I say that I was going to preach to these people and that if they repented, you wouldn't destroy them? Therefore I fled unto Tarshish. Why is he saying he flees? He doesn't want what?
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A
I don't want them to be saved. It sounds like he's like, I knew you were merciful.
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B
I knew you were merciful and you would save these people if they repented. Here's our parallel. Jonah 1. Jonah flees from Jehovah, is swallowed up by a fish. He's in the belly of the fish for three days during that time period, he repents. Then we have in chapter three of Jonah, the word of the Lord comes again to Jonah a second time. So here's our parallel. And he says, arise, go to Nineveh, that great city now. Nineveh. Some scholars believe Nineveh, the place Nineveh literally is probably from Nunna or Nina, meaning possibly the place of the fish. How big is this city? As we go forward, it says it was an exceedingly great city of three days journey. Jonah goes into the belly of the fish for a three day journey. Now he comes where? He comes into Nineveh for a three day journey. While he's in the belly of the fish, he repents. During this three day journey in the city of Nineveh, what does he do? He preaches to the people. And they do what they repent. But Jonah is upset about this. Why might the people of Nineveh have repented? Now I'm going to pull up a picture here for the people who are actually watching. This is a depiction of of a sage among the Sumerians, or among the people of Nineveh, called Apkallu. Apkallu was a sage or messenger to the gods. For the Assyrians, he wasn't a deity per se, but he was like a messenger of the gods. He was a sage. He was a wise man who would deliver messages from the gods to the people. What you've got in that is a person in like this costume of a fish. The sage is a person coming out of a fish. Now what do we have with Jonah? We have a man coming out of a fish. Look how God uses Jonah. Jonah, in his very rebellion, is prepared as a tool to bring forth repentance and good works of other people. For me, this is a great story and a great message because sometimes in our rebellions and in our weaknesses, God is preparing us to preach and to be tools for him in bringing forth good works and helping people come into repentance. My own story and my love of scriptures kind of goes back to the same type principle as a missionary. 35 years ago, I was serving in Argentina, and a few months into my mission, I had the opportunity of serving with a missionary. His name was Pablo. Shout out to Pablo if he's watching this. Pablo, at 19 years old, knew the scriptures inside and out, backwards and forwards. Amazing teacher of scriptures. And when Pablo would teach in the words of Alma the Younger, my heart was enlarged. The truth was delicious unto me. It was inspiring the way he could teach scriptures. I'd had religion classes at BYU before My mission. I'd had four years of seminary, but I'd never heard someone teach scripture the way Pablo could teach scripture. Three months into my mission, Pablo comes and splits. We are working together in a town. We go and visit some of the families that I'd been teaching. A few days later, I go back to one of these families. The first thing this lady says to me is, how come you aren't prepared to teach scriptures like Pablo is taught scriptures? For me, it was like a dagger to the heart. Yeah, it was pretty harsh, but it was true and it was real. I wasn't prepared to teach like Pablo was. There's a side of me that was embarrassed. I was ashamed. And I either consciously or subconsciously decided I would never not be prepared to teach scripture again. Part of my motivation as I dug into scriptures from that time forth in my life was this fear, this shame, this embarrassment of not being prepared to teach. I kind of like Jonah. My weakness was turned into something that I hope has become a strength, something that I do and teach and say, hopefully help bring other people closer to God, improve their relationship with deity, and help them come to repentance. That's where my love of scripture started. They have helped me in dark times. They've helped me stay close to God when I easily could have chosen other paths during the course of my life.
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A
Dave, the righteous motive wasn't there yet, but the Lord was using even your kind of rebellious motive in shaping you to become a great teacher of scripture. That's great.
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C
I was hoping you would share that story, because I've always been inspired by that. Every time I've heard you say that, I have one of those I need to be more like that type moments. The scriptures are such a gift. I particularly think of the Book of Mormon, what Lucy Mack Smith might say if she had come into a class. Do you know what it cost my family to bring this to you? So Elder Pablo. Pablo was his first name. Where was he from?
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B
From Uruguay.
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A
Uruguay. Wow, Dave, I wrote that down. Even in his rebellion, he was being shaped as a tool man. You can't get away from the Lord. He pursues you.
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B
Yeah. To me, it's a pretty profound principle that a lot of times we feel we are unworthy to teach or unworthy to serve. Yet a lot of times in those moments, those moments are where God is preparing us to teach, to serve the best.
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C
Yeah.
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A
Beauty for ashes. He's always the great alchemist, the Lord. All right, Dave, let's keep going.
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B
Let's jump into the scriptures for Our studies this week, as I was stating, we're going to look at the Exodus, the narrative of the Exodus. We're going to look at it in context of the keys of Moses. I want to look at some background doctrines that we want to understand before we look at the Exodus so that we can see how those keys of Moses play out throughout the narrative. I want to start in Doctrine and covenants, section 110, as one does start
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the book of Exodus.
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B
Section 110 absolutely makes sense. Section 110 of the doctrine and Covenant and Covenants. We have a series of visions in this vision. I'm going to start in verse 11. After one vision closed, the heavens were opened unto us, and Moses appeared before us, and he committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north. These keys of Moses are what I want to focus on throughout our study time here. Our first hint regarding what these keys do, it says, they're the keys to the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth. Now, as we look through the doctrine of the gathering of the house of Israel, it's often done in conjunction. It's often talked about by the prophets in conjunction with the four parts of the world. I want to turn to Joseph Smith. Matthew. This is Joseph smith. Matthew, verse 27. This is an addition to Matthew chapter 23 and 24. We have some additional commentary and some very insightful commentary regarding this doctrine of gathering from the four parts of the earth. Matthew 1:27. And he says, now I show unto you a parable. Behold, wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Now this verse is written also in a chiastic parallel. Here he says, behold, wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered. Here's the parallel. So likewise shall mine elect be gathered from the four quarters of the earth. Here's those four quarters of the earth mentioned in Doctrine and Covenants, Section 110. The elect are the eagles. The eagles gather to the carcass just as the elect gather from the four quarters of the earth. What might the theists be alluding to? What's the carcass here? Eagles are gathering the carcass, just like the elect from the four quarters of the earth.
- [16:25]
A
Well, we know the gathering is to both a place and a knowledge. A knowledge of the Lord. And also returning to John says, real estate, right?
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B
So there's a real estate gathering. It's a location. There's going to be a literal temporal gathering to a place. Then the second one you allude to, there is a gathering to the knowledge or gathering to a person. That's almost a spiritual gathering. We're going to gather to a person. We find another mention of birds being gathered to a carcass in the Old Testament and this is from Genesis chapter 15. In Genesis chapter 15 we have a covenant, the covenant being established between Jehovah and Abraham. Now if you'll recall, when Jehovah covenants with Abraham, he covenants that he's going to have seed as numberless as the stars in heaven, as numberless as the sand and the sea. He also tells him that he's going to inherit this land. In verse seven he says, I'm the Lord that brought thee out of the Ur of the Chaldees to give thee this land to inherit it. Now Abraham has some questions. He says, how can I know that I'm going to inherit these promises? This is what Jehovah has him do. In verse 10 he says he took unto him all these, meaning all these animals mentioned in 9. A heifer, a goat, a ram, a turtle dove. He takes unto him all these and divided them in the midst and laid them, each piece one against another. But the birds divided he not. And when the fowls came down upon the carcasses, so here is our carcass with a bird. We have these birds gathering to a carcass. Abraham is told to drive them away. One of the ways that they would engage in treaties or covenant making anciently was to take these animals and they would cut them in the midst. So they would divide them in two parts, they'd separate them. Then they would walk in the middle of this animal, these two pieces. And if I'm going to make a covenant with you, I might point at that animal and say I'm going to live up to the terms of this covenant. Should I not live up to these terms, Let this happen to me. It was like a simile type curse. The carcass then becomes a place of what?
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Of covenant.
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Of covenant making. So if we take a look at that, then from Joseph Smith, Matthew and the eagles coming to the carcass. They're coming to a covenant making place. We get that idea again here in Genesis chapter 15, verse 17. It says it came to pass that when the sun went down and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace and a burning lamp passed between those pieces. Now it's the place of covenant making or oath swearing. Here we have a smoking furnace and Burning lamp. Lamp pass in between those pieces. Symbolic, I believe, of Jehovah. Jehovah is going to pass in between those pieces. Then in verse 18 it says, in that same day Jehovah or the Lord made a covenant with Abram. The carcass then becomes a covenant making place. You're gathered from the four corners of the earth to a covenant making place. Now the word covenant is a Latin word. It's convenire for all the Spanish speakers out there. Con venere is with. Con is with. Venere is to come. A covenant literally is a place where you come together with. Let's go to third Nephi in third Nephi 106 it says, O ye house of Israel, whom I have spared, how oft will I gather you as a hen gathereth her chickens. Third Nephi 10 introduces this doctrine of gathering. Jesus says, O house of Israel, I want to keep gathering you. Now as we turn to chapter 11, we introduce the Nephites gathered together where
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they go to the temple.
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B
They go to the temple, a place of covenants. 3rd Nephi 20 they go to the temple, this covenant making place, and they enter into covenants. 3 Nephi 2012 and verily, verily, I say unto you that when they shall be fulfilled, then is the fulfilling of the covenant. Again this idea of covenant making. Then shall the remnants which shall be scattered abroad upon the face of the earth be gathered in from the east and from the west, and from the south and from the north. Here are those cardinal directions. The world is divided into the north, south, east, west, four corners of the earth. You're going to gather to that holy sacred center. Now in Latin, where those axes cross is the templum. You're going to gather from the north, south, east, west directions to a holy or hierocentric to a holy center, which is the templum in Latin, which is our root word for temple. The temple then becomes the covenant making place where we gather and then as you stated earlier, Hank, and they shall be brought to a knowledge of the Lord their God, who hath redeemed them. We come and we gather to Christ in that holy sinner into a promised land, into the presence of God. That's essentially then what we have as our doctrine of gathering. The keys of Moses allow us to gather from the four parts of the earth to as we make covenants in sacred holy places and come to Christ.
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C
Hank, we just went from Jonah to Doctrine and Covenants to Pearl of great price, Joseph Smith, Matthew to third Nephi to Book of Mormon. This is why I love Dave Hadlock. There's a place where Jesus, when he spends his day with the Nephites and the righteous Lamanites who were spared, it says that he expounded all the scriptures in one. And I think Dave just did that and showed how. Look how these connect. I have never known what to do with those carcass verses before. Thank you for that.
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A
Yeah. And that would be a terrible adjective for you, my co host.
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C
My carcass or co host.
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B
Yeah, you don't want to be split in twain,
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Dave.
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A
This place of covenant where I split this animal and I walk through, very symbolic of a temple. It's a place of covenant as well. Yep.
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B
We go to that holy center where we make covenants and come to a knowledge of God. Now let's look now at Doctrine and covenants, section 84, and these keys of Moses as they're discussed there. Doctrine and Covenants, section 84, verse 19. This greater priesthood administereth the Gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom of even the key of the knowledge of God. Now remember, what do they come to a knowledge of there? As you said, they come to a knowledge of their Redeemer. Those are the keys here. This greater priesthood has the keys that administereth the keys to the coming to a knowledge of God. Now, as we go back to third Nephi, what I want to look at is this doctrine of coming to know God. I'm going to be reading from 3 Nephi 14 and coming to a knowledge of God after walking, mocking the Nephites. And in the Old World in the Sermon on the Mount, we see the same covenants being made there. In verse 21 of 3 Nephi 14, it says, not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father, which is in heaven. Here he's saying, do those covenants live, those covenants that we've just taught you about? Verse 22. Many will say to me in that day, lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils, and in thy name done many wonderful works. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you. Depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Here we have. After entering into the covenant, he said, some people will come to me in that day and say, lord, Lord, let me enter into your kingdom, into the place. So we gather to a place as well. Jesus says, you can't come here. Why? Because I. What? I never knew you. Now, the Word in Hebrew for to know is yada. Here's how you're going to remember this. This is your Hebrew lesson. Yoda is the knowing one. Okay? He says, I profess unto you that I never knew you. Now, in Hebrew, the idea of knowing someone, central to that and implicit in that is having a covenant relationship. So in here, in 3 Nephi, he says, you cannot come unto me. Why? Because you don't have. What? You don't have a covenant relationship with me. Now think of this in context of different passages in scriptures about knowing someone. What does John say? Eternal life is to know God. Eternal life is to know God. Implicit in that is having a covenant relationship with God. The keys then of Moses allow us and allow for the knowledge of God and the covenants that allow us to come to him and enter into his kingdom. And that's what we're going to be looking at as we go through the passage of Exodus is how does that play out? One more principle I want to look at is a principle called sacred time. We've talked about sacred place, temple space, being gathered to a sacred space. But there's another principle called sacred time. And the idea of sacred time is that ancient religious man would reenact the events of their creation mythology. Let me give you an example of this. One of the things we'll do on some of our trips is we'll take groups into Central America and we will show them some of the beliefs of the ancient Mayan civilizations and practices of the Mayans. One of the things that we find the Mayans do is they play this ball court game. We call it a game, but the ball court game is actually a ceremony or a ritual. Now, at the end of this game, there would be the death of one of the participants in this game. Horrible game. Sounds like a horrible game, but again, it's not really a game, it's a ceremony. It's a ritual reenactment of what their gods did in the beginning. They would reenact or recreate through ceremony and ritual the things their gods did in the beginning. And we find this among almost all ancient civilizations is this idea that you're going to reenact what the gods did in the beginning. Any ideas why civilizations, why religious people would reenact what God did in the beginning?
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C
It seems like worldwide, in every faith tradition you can think of, there's some sort of creation story I think is trying to answer the question, who are we and how did we get here?
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B
Now think about it as we look at our creation account, our Creation mythology is Genesis 1 and 2. Now, after God creates something in Genesis 1, what does he say about that? God saw that it was good, it's clean, it's purified, it's sanctified. The ancients, in their religious ritual, by reenacting what God did in the beginning, they saw themselves as good, recreated, purified, sanctified. Reenacting those events first of all sanctifies the individual. It causes them then to be projected back into that, I'm going to call it that Edenic state, back into that realm of the gods. That's the idea then of sacred time is that through our ritual we reenact what God does in the beginning. It sanctifies us, purifies us. Then we are seen as good and we are projected back into the presence of God or gathered back to God. That's the idea of sacred time. As we now start to look at the Book of Exodus, one of the things in my interpretation and my approach to the Book of Exodus is we're going to look and see how Exodus is a reenactment of Genesis. It's a sacred time story in which we're going to see the author. And for the sake of our discussion, Moses is going to draw parallels in all the book of Exodus to the creation account in Genesis. I'm going to start by setting forth this pattern. Genesis is a creation account. It's a creation pattern. In Moses we're going to see elements that are present in all creation accounts, in all new births. Moses 6, 59, that by reason of transgression cometh fall, which fall bringeth death. And inasmuch as you were born, I'm going to say, or created into the world by water, blood and spirit, and have of dust become a living soul are elements. All creation, all new births come forth from water, blood, spirit, those are elements. Now as we then look at Exodus and Genesis, we have new creation accounts. Genesis is our creation account. Those elements are going to be present. We're going to look for those same elements as we go to the Book of Exodus. Now let's go ahead and jump to the Book of Exodus. We'll start in Exodus chapter one. Okay, we get to Exodus chapter one. What's our setting? How did the Israelites get here? Help me out here.
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C
Joseph was sold into Egypt and became Pharaoh's right hand man. Then the rest of the family came to escape the famine. And now they've been there for hundreds of years. Then there arose a Pharaoh that knew not Joseph. They've multiplied basically in Egypt.
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B
Yeah, that's great. Now we're going to take a look at this in a symbolic nature, trying to pull out elements of the book of Genesis, Egypt. How might Egypt have been perceived if we were to take a look at this symbolically? Now, a lot of times when we think of Egypt, we think of what, what comes later.
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A
Yeah. Pyramids and hot camels and desert.
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B
That's a great description of Egypt. Thanks. For the ancient Israelites, they probably later in their history looked at it as a place of suppression, oppression, bondage. Probably not with super fond memories. But if you go before back in time from this, I'm going to read from Genesis, chapter 13. We have a passage in which Abraham and Lot are dividing up the land. Lot, it says, lifts up his eyes and he beholds the plains of Jordan. He's looking at the plains of Jordan and he sees how green and luscious it is. And he desires that place. It's a better place to plant crops. It says it was well watered everywhere before the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Even as the Garden of the Lord, like unto the land of Egypt, here Egypt is being compared to the Garden of Eden. The Exodus starts out in this Edenic state with these Israelites, through the guidance of Joseph, arriving there as a place of refuge, as a place that's well watered. They've come from drought. Now it's been a place of deliverance. They get here through Joseph. Now, the name Joseph in Hebrew means to add, but there's possibly a linguistic etymological tie to the word asaf, which is to gather. We're looking at this passage in the context of the keys of Moses and the gathering of Israel. Joseph gathers Israel here in Egypt or here in Eden. Now, we think about this in context of ourselves. We are gathered in an Edenic state in the presence of God. And now what's going to happen to these Israelites here in Egypt? As we keep reading the passage, and you brought this up, John, it says there arose a new king, a pharaoh over Egypt, which knew not Joseph. Now, here's that idea of knowing. We'll go back to our previous discussion, but implicit in the idea of knowing is a covenant relationship between people. Now we have some sort of a break in the covenant. I'm going to call it a fall. There's a break in covenant and there's a fall here now in Genesis, with the break in covenant and the fall, what are some of the consequences that come upon Adam and Eve?
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A
Sin, death, children. Should not put those in the same category.
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B
I don't know. Maybe you should. Yeah.
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A
There are days, sin, death, sickness, family. That's a good thing.
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C
Work, sweat, making bricks without straw.
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B
Yeah. Here we have in Genesis, following this break, this transgression, verse 16 of Genesis 3. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow shalt thou bring forth children. Unto Adam, he said, because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of the wife, thou shalt curse it as the ground for thy sake. In sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life. So we see that there's a change in nature of work and what's going on in the land. Now there are mortal humans subject to sin and death. They're in bondage to sin and death. As we look In Exodus chapter 1, verse 13, it says, Then the Egyptians made the children of Israel to serve with rigor. Sounds a lot like Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. And they made their lives bitter with hard bondage and mortar and brick. They are now enslaved. They're in bondage to the Egyptians. Man comes out of Eden in bondage to sin and death. Have to work by the sweat of the brown. Here's our parallel to the Genesis account, Dave.
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A
I noticed Exodus 1:7.
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B
They were fruitful.
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A
Verse 12, they multiplied. That sounds very Genesis, Eden.
- [35:27]
B
Like, I wanted to go there and I skipped over and forgot it. So glad you pulled us back. But that's exact verbiage from Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. In the garden of Eden, they are commanded to multiply and replenish. Here in this quote, unquote Edenic state in Egypt that before this break in treaty with the Pharaoh, the children of Israel were fruitful, increased abundantly multiplied, replenished the earth. This is Moses, in my opinion, hearkening back to Genesis and Adam and Eve in that Edenic state. Now we have fallen man depicted in Genesis as Adam and Eve. Here in Exodus, we have these fallen Israelites. They've been scattered. They're in need of a savior. They're in need of a deliverer. They're in need of someone who will bring them back. We're going to jump forward to Exodus chapter 3. In Exodus chapter 3, verse 13, we have actually in this passage, Moses going to Mount Sinai. He ascends to meet Jehovah. That's where we have, in verse five, Jehovah said to him, dranah nigh hither, put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. Moses meets with Jehovah on this holy land. Then in verse 11, Moses expresses some of his concerns about his own ability to deliver these people back to a land of promise. Verse 11. And Moses said unto God, who am I that I should go unto Pharaoh, That I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt, out of bondage? How can I do that? Deliverance. Verse 13. Moses said unto God, behold, when I come unto the children of Israel and shall say unto them that the God of your fathers hath sent me unto you. And they shall say unto me, what is his name? What shall I say unto them? Moses wants something to take before the children of Israel to prove his identity.
- [37:29]
A
He's a true messenger.
- [37:31]
B
He's a true messenger of God. What do I do? God says to him, say unto them, I am. That I am hath sent you. Now we're going to go back to Genesis in the creation account. In the creation account of Genesis chapter one, if we were to read this in Hebrew, it says, in the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth. God here is Elohim. So all throughout Genesis chapter one, our name title for deity in Hebrew is Elohim. In Genesis chapter two, our name title for deity changes. Genesis chapter two, verse seven, you're going to notice that in conjunction with the creation of man of Adam, on day seven, it says that the Lord God formed man of the dust of the earth. Here we have not just God, but we have the name title, Lord God creating man. If we were to go to the Hebrew here, Lord in Hebrew would be Yahweh or I am the same name. In Exodus chapter 13, when he says, I am that I am to Moses, Jehovah is saying, remember that creation God in Genesis chapter two, that creator deliverer God, the God that created Adam. I am that I am is what you're going to tell them is the name that's going to give them faith or trust to follow you. I took quite a few semesters of biblical Hebrew. I had a great professor, Don Perry. He suggests that I am. That I am could mean I caused to be that which I am. He actually gets that, I think, from Frank Cross as well. If we were to literally translate Lord God From Genesis chapter 2, verse 7, Lord God would literally be, I am God, I am Elohim, or to be Elohim in Genesis chapter 2, verse 7, Exodus chapter 3, verse 14, I am that I am, or I cause to be that which I am. Now we have our deliverer. Ultimately, our deliverer is our creator, God, Jehovah. Now we're going to jump forward to Exodus chapter 4. How does this deliverance take place? We have our deliverer, Jehovah. Moses then continues saying that they're not going to believe me. They're not going to hearken to my voice. For they will say, the Lord hath not appeared unto thee. This is where Jehovah is going to have Moses do something that seems a little odd to us. The Lord said unto him, what is that in thine hand? And he said, it is a rod. Now, as we think about the rod in Scripture, what does the rod often symbolize? Think of the iron rod. What does Nephi compare the iron rod to?
- [40:27]
C
The Word of God.
- [40:28]
B
So when we look at rods in Scriptures, we think of the Word of God. How does God create? In the beginning, he speaks to the elements through his word. God speaks his Word, and then the elements obey. Part of the symbolism here is that we've got a rock rod, possibly equated with the Word in Genesis chapter one. What else is the rod compared to in ancient scripture? In the ancient world, it's often depicted as a symbol of power, authority. In this passage, look what happens to this rod. Exodus chapter three, verse three. And he said, cast it. Cast the rod on the ground. And he cast it on the ground and it became a serpent, and Moses fled before it. The rod is also what in this passage?
- [41:18]
A
It's the serpent.
- [41:20]
B
The rod is the serpent that's straight
- [41:22]
A
out of the garden as well.
- [41:23]
B
Yes. Here we are now hearkening back to the Garden of Eden, to Genesis. As we look at this rod and this serpent, look at Isaiah 11, Isaiah 11:1 says, and there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots. Now who's this rod out of the stem of Jesse? We're talking here about Jesus. The rod or the serpent is also a symbol of Jesus, I believe in the very middle of the garden. In fact, if we go back to the Garden of Eden account, it says, in the midst of the garden there was a tree of life. First, Nephi, chapter eight. When they talk about that tree of life, ultimately the tree of life is a symbol of Christ himself. The love of God, or Christ himself is in the midst of that garden. Now here we've got this idea that this rod is cast on the ground and it becomes a serpent. In Numbers, Chapter 21. As these ancient Israelites are walking through the wilderness, we're going to jump forward in time a little bit here. The Israelites have been released from bondage. They're in the wilderness. As they're in the wilderness, these serpents bite them. They start to die. And in verse 8 of Numbers chapter 21, it says that the Lord said unto Moses, make thee a fiery serpent and set it upon a pole. Here we've got a rod, a pole and a serpent. Some of the same imagery that we find in Exodus chapter 4. Make thee a fiery serpent and set it upon a pole. And it shall come to pass that everyone that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, it shall live. So Moses made a serpent of brass and put it upon a pole. A lot of times when we think of serpent symbology, we think the serpent is a symbol of whom?
- [43:17]
A
Satan.
- [43:19]
B
Satan appears to Eve and Adam as a serpent. Now, we aren't really sure what that looked like, but he appears in the form of a serpent. Now, would Moses be putting a symbol of Satan upon a staff and asking the people to look unto Satan and live?
- [43:38]
A
No, not at all. So it sounds like Satan, maybe in the garden wanted to look like God.
- [43:44]
B
That's my opinion. Yes. If we look in Alma chapter 33.
- [43:50]
A
I'm trying to keep my fingers in my Scriptures here.
- [43:53]
C
Dave.
- [43:53]
A
You gotta. I don't have.
- [43:55]
C
I'm using the entire quad today.
- [43:57]
B
That's right. In Alma chapter 33, we have Alma speaking to the Zoramites. He's just talked to them comparing the word to a seed. He's asked them to plant that seed and let that seed grow and see what it grows into. It actually grows into a tree that gives life. A tree of life. Then In Alma chapter 33, the people are still confused in verse one. Now, Alma had spoken these words they sent forth unto him, desiring to know whether they should believe in one God that they might obtain this fruit. That's exactly what he's trying to teach them, is that they're supposed to believe in one God. They were supposed to plant in their heart the Logos or the Word or Jesus Christ in their heart, and he would grow into a tree of everlasting life for them. That's what he wanted them to plant, but they didn't get it. Then he has to explain. Have you not read the Scriptures? Do you not understand that these Old Testaments prophets prophesied of Jesus Christ that he is the one God that you need to plant in your hearts? He quotes from some of these prophets. But then he says in Alma 33, 18, but this is not all. These are not the only ones who have spoken concerning the Son of God. Behold, he was also spoken of by Moses. Now look at the context of this. Yea, behold, a type was raised up in the wilderness that whosoever would look upon it might live. And many did look and live. What is Alma saying that Moses did when he raised that serpent onto the
- [45:33]
A
staff, that he spoke of the Son
- [45:35]
B
of God, that he taught about Jesus Christ, the Son of God, when he holds that serpent up, in my opinion, he goes on to say in verse 20, but few understood the meaning of those things, and this because of the hardness of their hearts. But there were many who were so hardened that they perished. Now the reason they would not look is because they did not believe that it would heal them. Now what's the antecedent to it there? I believe they didn't believe that Jesus Christ would heal them. And I think that's what Moses plainly taught when he put that upon the staff. That's why this is not idol worship. This is trying to get the people to worship Jesus Christ. The serpent on the staff becomes a symbol of Jesus Christ. Now we're going to turn to some of Jacob's teachings regarding Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and Satan's appearance unto them. This is second Nephi nine nine. And our spirits must have become like unto him. And we would have become devils, angels to a devil. So the context of this is, were it not for an infinite atonement, we would have become like unto Satan, to be shut out from the presence of God and to remain with the Father of lies in misery. Like unto himself. Yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself. Now this is the important phrase, nigh unto an angel of light in the Garden of Eden. When Satan appears to Adam and Eve, it says he appears unto them how? As a.
- [47:03]
A
As an angel of light. Serpent.
- [47:06]
B
As a serpent. And now why would he have taken upon himself the form of a serpent? Because I believe, and this is Dave speaking here, that the serpent was a symbol of Jesus Christ. He's imitating Jesus Christ to try and deceive Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Now given that context, let's go now back to the book of Exodus and look how this plays out in the book of Exodus with this serpent, Jehovah commands Moses and Aaron to go in unto the Pharaoh to start this process of getting his people released from bondage. Exodus, chapter 7, verse 1. And the Lord said unto Moses, see, I have made thee a God to Pharaoh and Aaron, thy brother shall be a of thy prophet. Moses now is a symbol of God. The prophet is his mouthpiece. Verse 5. And the Egyptians shall know that I am Lord. Part of the purpose of what's going to come to pass throughout the next few chapters is Jehovah wants the people to come to know God, Jehovah. But he also wants the Egyptians to know that Jehovah is Lord, that Jehovah is God. Verse 10. Now we have our first interaction between Pharaoh and Moses, verse 10. And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh and they did as the Lord had commanded. And Aaron cast down his rod before the Pharaoh and before his servants, and it became a serpent. Symbolic of who? Of Jesus. Now we have Jesus enter into this creation account, this creation drama, going back to the idea that the book of Exodus is a reenactment of the book of Genesis. Genesis, or the creation account, verse 11. Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers, now the magicians of Egypt. They also did in like manner with their enchantments. They cast down every man his rod and they became serpents. But Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods. Now we have this primordial or this premortal battle between serpents, the serpent Christ and the serpent Satan. As it plays out in the creation account. If we went to the book of Moses, we see this battle that takes place in the pre existence between God the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ and Satan and those who would follow Satan. This is that creation drama account taking place right here. Now, the word for serpent in these passages in Hebrew is tannin. Genesis. In the creation account, as God creates the fowl of the air, the fish of the sea, the cattle in the field, it names one spec animal, and this is from Genesis, chapter one, verse 21. So here I think we have Moses hearkening back to Genesis with this tannin, with the sea serpent, the sea monster. Genesis, chapter one, verse 21, it says, and God created great whales and every living creature that moveth. Now, if you look down in the footnotes of 21 1A, it says Hebrew, great sea monster. This is the sea serpent. This is tannin in Hebrew. Here we have this parallel between the tannin, the sea serpent, and what's taking place Here in Exodus 7, 10, 12, the Battle of the serpents. We know that the serpent Christ conquers Satan and casts him out. At that point, the Egyptians decide not to liberate the Israelites. The Pharaoh hardens his heart. What we're going to look at now as we go through some of these plagues that fall upon the Egyptians, is we're going to see a passage, a narrative in which the book of Exodus is going to harken back to the chaos that exists prior to the creation account. So we're going to move the world of Egypt into a state of chaos.
- [51:06]
C
David, I've heard you teach some of these things before, and I love it. I struggle with thinking snakes are wonderful things still. I'm more like Indiana Jones in that area. But I love how you have connected these. You have done for me what Pablo did for you. I think, wow, all of this has always been there. Maybe I can binge watch Amazon prime less and look at this stuff more. We don't have to be intimidated by scripture. We're children of God with the gift of the Holy Ghost. He wants us to find these exciting connections and to be inspired by them. I love what you've done here, David. Thank you.
- [51:50]
B
Thank you, John. I appreciate that.
- [51:51]
A
The Lord, I think, has designed the scriptures this way, John, that you'll only get out what you put in. It really reflects your investment.
- [52:02]
C
But you put in some time and you'll make these fun discoveries that build your faith and make you go, these were designed, they're elegant. There's patterns, there's connections that are all over the place, and it's fun to see those. And I appreciate that, Dave.
- [52:19]
B
Thank you. I appreciate that.
- [52:20]
A
Sounds like it's time for the plagues.
- [52:23]
B
Yeah, let's jump into the plagues. Said nobody ever.
- [52:31]
A
Let's jump right in.
- [52:33]
B
Let's take a look at them. We aren't going to spend a lot of time on them. I just want to take an overview look at them to show how they are going to sometimes through words, actual words, take us back to Genesis. Exodus is going to take us to a state of chaos prior to creation. I want to take us to the first plague narrative. I want to start in Exodus, chapter 7, verse 19. In Exodus chapter 7, verse 19, in our first plague, the Lord spake unto Moses, saying to Aaron, take thy rod, stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, and upon their streams, and upon their rivers, upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water. Now, here in Exodus 19, it talks about all these pools of water. An alternative translation for pools is gatherings of water. These different gatherings of water. If we go back to the creation account, in the beginning, God gathers together the waters in one place. In Genesis 1:9, God said, Let the waters under heaven be gathered together in one place and let the dry land appear. So we have these pools or these gatherings of water, that they may become blood back in Exodus, and that there may be Blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood and in vessels of stone. Moses and Aaron did as the Lord commanded. And he lifted up the rod and smote the waters which were in the river. And in the sight of the Pharaoh and in the sight of his servants, all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood. Here we have in Exodus, the turning of water to blood. That which God created in the beginning. When he separates and divides those waters, he calls them good. Now they turn to blood. In fact, in Genesis, God saw that they were good. This is Genesis, chapter 1, verse 10. And God called the dry land earth, and gathered together the waters he called seas. And God saw that it was good. Then in verse 20, from that water in Genesis, God said, let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life foul, that they may fly above the earth and in the open firmament of heaven. In Genesis, those waters bring forth life abundantly. Well, in Exodus, what do those waters that have turned to blood bring forth? Look at this in Exodus 8, 3. The river. The water shall bring forth frogs abundantly, which shall go up and come into thine house and into thine bedchamber and upon thy bed. In the beginning, when God creates and he sees that it's good, it brings forth life. And now it brings forth these frogs that plague their homes and their lands. Our next plague that's going to hit again. The Pharaoh doesn't release them. This doesn't convince him to let them go. Jehovah comes to Moses in verse 16 and says to Aaron, stretch out thy rod. Smite the dust of the land, that it may become lice. Now, where do we see dust in the Genesis account? In the Genesis account, God creates Adam or man from the dust of the earth. Now they're smiting the land, and it becomes lice throughout all the land of Egypt. And they did so for Aaron and stretched out his hand upon the rod and smote the dust of the earth, and it became lice in man. So in the beginning, the dust is what man's formed from. Now the land dust is cursed, and it comes forth as lice to plague man. We have a reversal of the elements going here, Exodus 8:24. And the Lord did so, and there came a grievous swarm of flies. Here's our next plague. We've got this swarm of flies into the house of Pharaoh and into his servant's house and into all the land of Egypt. The land was corrupted by reason of the swarm of flies. Now take a Look at these first three plagues as kind of a grouping, as a whole. But we've got the waters of creation that were seen as good turned to blood. We've got the dust from which man is created turned to lice. Now we've got these swarms of flies throughout the air. Now that which was created and seen as good in the beginning has all been corrupted as we go through these plagues. Exodus chapter 9, verse 6. And the Lord did that thing on the morrow, and all the cattle of Egypt died. But of the cattle of the children of Israel died, not one. So here's our next plague. Jehovah comes through curses all the things. The cattle of Egypt died. Now, in the beginning, in Genesis, chapter one, verse 25, God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and everything that creepeth upon the earth after his kind. And God saw that it was good. So in the beginning, God creates the cattle of the field and sees that it is good. Now the cattle in Exodus is being killed. We have a reversal of that which was created in the beginning. Exodus chapter 9, verse 25. Another plague comes upon the children of Israel. Hail and fire are sent down from heaven. Verse 25. And the hell smote throughout all the land of Egypt, all that was in the field, both man and beast. The hail smote every herb of the field and break every tree of the field. Look at that, the hail comes in and smites the herb of the field. Genesis chapter one, verse 29. God said, behold, I have given you every field, every herb bearing seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree. So here we have herb and tree created in the beginning, in which is the fruit of the tree yielding seed to you it shall be for meat. In the beginning, God creates the herb of the field, the trees. And now here we have this plague that comes down, this hail and fire that smites all the herbs of the field. Again, Pharaoh hardens his heart. None of these plagues convince him to let the Israelites go. They're not delivered from bondage. Exodus 10:4 Else if thou refuse to let my people go, behold, tomorrow will I bring the locusts into thy coast, and they shall cover the face of the earth. That one cannot be able to see the earth here. This last plague we're going to see these locusts come in, that's going to plague the earth. Verse 15. For they covered the face of the whole earth, that the land was darkened, and they did eat of every herb of the land, and all the fruit of the trees which the hill had left. And there remained not any green thing in the trees or in the herbs of the field. Through all the land of Egypt, here we have this plague of locusts comes in. Anything that was left behind from these previous plagues is now consumed by these locusts. Exodus 10:22. Second to the last plague. And Moses, it says, stretched forth his hand toward heaven. There was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt. Three days. Now, if we go back to the creation account, Genesis, chapter one, verse one. All creation, it says, in the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth. The earth was without form and void. Here we have the earth in a state of chaos. Now look how it's depicted. And darkness was upon the face of the deep. All creation, new creation deliverances come forth from darkness. Now here in Genesis we have our first element, where we are finding that the. The world of Egypt has been cast back into this place, similar to Genesis, where darkness is upon the face of Egypt for three days.
- [60:06]
A
We've basically gone backwards.
- [60:08]
B
We have reversed time. We took all the events of the creation, and now we have reversed them to put the world, their known world, back into a state of chaos where now God can create again. He can create a new creature. That's what part of the keys of Moses allow for the gathering of the household of Israel. But they also allow for a new type of creation and what we become as we enter into these covenants. That's where the narrative is going to take us. Now we're in this place, in the state of chaos. We need to be created and delivered again. We have our last plague that takes place. One of the things that we see in this is, and in Exodus 11:5, we see this last plague, that all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, and the firstborn of the Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne. Sometimes when I'm with groups in Israel, we'll go to a place called Mount Carmel. Mount Carmel is where we find this battle that takes place between Elijah and the priests of baal. In that battle that takes place, we see this juxtaposition in which Jehovah is contrasted with this pantheon of deities among the Canaanites, where Elijah is declaring that Jehovah is the one true God. He has power over all these other Canaanite deities. John, I've heard you talk in the past about a similar thing going on here with the Egyptian gods in Exodus. Could you teach us and give us some insight on some of the things you'll teach here?
- [61:46]
C
I'VE heard you teach that up there. And it's really interesting about what the wood represents, what the cattle represent. And there's such a wonderful symbolic language going on at the beginning of this story. It's as if Jehovah has different audiences. He's going to teach the house of Israel about himself. In Exodus 6:7, ye shall know I am the Lord in Exodus 7:5, and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord. Perhaps also Moses is learning because Moses took some convincing. Remember, Hank, when we were doing those chapters and. Well, put your hand in your vest. Now take it out again. Now put it in. I have the power, Moses. This is what I did not know watching the Ten Commandments with my family as a kid is that so many of these plagues were directed toward an Egyptian God, or at least affected Egyptian gods so much. For example, the water to blood. I mean, what's the old saying that Egypt is the gift of the Nile? That's water, that's life. Well, turning water to blood. There's an Egyptian God named Hapi h a p I who controlled the waters of the Nile. It was as if God was saying, the Nile is not God. I am God. Let my people go. And then frogs. Hecate is represented by a frog goddess. I've seen a picture of her. She has a human form and a frog's head. Now, some people have a bad hair day. Some people look in the mirror and say, kermit, the plague here. Right? So that's a bad day.
- [63:26]
B
Did not see that one coming.
- [63:28]
A
Yeah, that was a great one.
- [63:30]
C
The lice or the gnats, like you said, this is coming from the dust. The God of the earth was turned into lice or gnats. The flies, possibly. I don't know how to say it. Ua cheat represented by a fly. I've seen pictures of these. It's like a body with a bug for a head, like a scarab for a head. The plague on the cattle. APIs was a bull God. Hathor was a cow goddess. Khnum was a ram God. All of these over and over, the Lord saying, that's not God. I am God. Boils and blains. There was Sekhmet, who was the goddess over the power of disease. Nut, the sky goddess, when the hail and fire came, was being discredited. Locus Osiris was the God of crops and fe Then with the three days of darkness. That's a pretty impressive one. That's pretty hard to fake that. I think of the same thing in Third Nephi. So amun Ra, the God of the sun, discredited there. One of the chief ones in that pantheon that you mentioned in the death of the firstborn Pharaoh was considered a God himself and had no power to save. I think that's what you were asking me to talk about, David. To me, it's so cool that Jehovah is a teacher and he's showing him over and over again, that's not God. I am God. That's not God. I am God. I think Jehovah's powerful enough that he could have done one thing and let him out on day one as a teacher. He's showing him all of these things are false. Something else that's really cool about this is you go all the way to the book of Revelation, chapter 8. A third part of the sea became blood. Chapter 16, the sea became as the blood of a dead man. Revelation 16. Unclean spirits, like frogs, came out of the mouth of the dragons. There's frogs. Section 19 of the Doctrine and Covenants. The Lord God will send flies upon the face of the earth. Back to Revelation chapter 8. There followed hail and fire. Revelation 9. There came out of the smoke, locusts upon the earth. Revelation 8 Again, a third part of the sun, moon and stars were darkened. There's that section 112 of the doctrine and Covenants. Darkness covereth the earth, gross darkness, the minds of the people. It seems like there's a pattern that it sounds like is going to repeat, as once again, Jehovah shows those things are not God. I am God. The scary thing to apply this is I don't believe in gods that look like a person with a frog's head. But do I have false things that I give a lot of time and energy and emotional energy to that are not God?
- [66:21]
B
That was awesome. And leads right into Exodus chapter 11. Again, part of the whole purpose of this passage is how Jehovah is going to deliver his people from bondage. And what has he just demonstrated? And like what you mentioned here, John, none of these Egyptian gods could ever deliver you from bondage. They can't deliver you from sin. They can't deliver you from death. But look at the one plague that actually does deliver the ancient Israelites. Here we're in Exodus chapter 11. This is the plague. When Pharaoh finally says, let the people go and all the firstborn of the land of Egypt shall die. The death of the firstborn is the plague that ultimately allows all the people, the ancient Israelites, to be released from bondage. Think of the typology of Jesus Christ. Here. Christ the firstborn. And it's his death that releases us from bondage. This became so central to the ancient Israelite understanding of Jehovah that the feast of Passover became a part of their yearly worship. This release from bondage and this recalling and this memory of a God who did release his people from bondage.
- [67:37]
A
Coming up in part two.
- [67:39]
B
I have to love God. And if I love God, then I will love myself. And if I love myself, then I can love my neighbor. I was struggling with that first part. I couldn't get to the love God. And here's why. This is first John, chapter 4, verse 19. John goes on to say, we love him because he first loved us. I didn't know how to feel God's love. But this is step one in that hierarchy.