Genesis 18-23 Part 1 • Dr. Carli Anderson • Feb. 23 - Mar. 1 • Come, Follow Me

Summary

followHIM Podcast Summary

Episode: Genesis 18–23 Part 1 with Dr. Carli Anderson

Hosts: Hank Smith & John Bytheway
Guest: Dr. Carli Anderson
Release Date: February 18, 2026

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Overview

This episode of followHIM dives into Genesis 18–23, focusing especially on the intertwined stories of Abraham, Sarah, and Hagar. Dr. Carli Anderson, an expert in Hebrew Bible and Ancient Near Eastern studies, helps listeners view these familiar narratives in a new light, bringing out their ancient cultural context and the nuanced roles of the women involved. The discussion reveals the profound humanity and spiritual growth of these Old Testament figures and draws parallels to faith, disappointment, and covenant in modern life.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Approaching Ancient Scripture (06:27–14:00)

• Reading Genesis as Ancient Literature
  • Dr. Anderson explains these stories are deeply stylized, with every phrase and word meaningful—often reflecting wordplays, allusions, and layered symbolism from oral traditions.

    "It's easier to hear, but you can still see it in the English. It was organized around skillful listening..." (07:41, Dr. Anderson)

• Cultural Weight of Abraham, Sarah, and Hagar
  • These figures carry a “cloud” of meaning—much like Santa Claus carries modern cultural associations beyond the simple name.
  • The text’s brevity doesn’t diminish the heavy cultural and spiritual significance packed within.

2. Reframing Sarah’s Story (13:09–23:11)

• Sarah as Abraham’s Equal
  • Dr. Anderson emphasizes that the Hebrew text elevates Sarah to a position equal to Abraham, both spiritually and culturally.
  • Example: In Genesis 12, Sarah is recognized by Egyptian “princes” (sar), paralleling her own name.

    “The sars see Sarah, and they see, oh, we recognize something in this person. And that’s the wordplay.” (16:16, Dr. Anderson)

  • The use of the verb “hillel” (to praise, usually reserved for divinity) toward Sarah further elevates her status.

3. Cultural and Legal Context of Hagar’s Story (23:11–39:27)

• Surrogate Motherhood and Ancient Law Codes
  • The Genesis 16 story of Sarah, Hagar, and Abraham is reframed within ancient legal codes, where surrogacy was accepted practice but came with strict hierarchies.
  • Sarah is depicted as a builder of her house—“I will be built up”—reflecting her agency and status.
• Power Dynamics and Human Vulnerability
  • Conflict arises when Hagar, the surrogate, shifts the power dynamic—she “despises” Sarah, which in Hebrew implies belittling and violating the expected hierarchy.

    “This isn’t about Hagar getting pregnant. This is about Hagar getting pregnant, then trying to shift the power dynamic, disrespecting Sarah as the chiefess…” (31:48, Hank Smith)

  • Sarah seeks justice, invoking an “oath formula” to call on God’s judgment.
• Divine Intervention and Heartbreak
  • An angel tells Hagar to return and acknowledges her son Ishmael as Hagar’s own, even though he was supposed to be Sarah’s legally.

    “This was the baby that was gonna help create the lineage...the angel comes up and says, go back…the next sentence, he takes away Sarah’s baby. It’s not Sarah’s baby anymore. Now it’s Hagar’s…That baby is going to be Hagar’s.” (36:08, Dr. Anderson)

4. Faith Amid Disappointment: Modern Parallels (39:27–51:20)

• Learning Through Loss and Disappointment
  • Dr. Anderson ties the heartbreak of Sarah’s story to modern experiences, relating personal and family stories of lost opportunities and unexpected detours.
  • The Hubie Brown “Currant Bush” story reinforces the spiritual principle that sometimes God’s pruning leads to greater growth—even if it requires giving up cherished dreams.

    “If I let you go the way you want to go, you’ll never amount to anything. But someday, when you’re laden with fruit, you’re going to think back and say, thank you, Mr. Gardener, for cutting me down—for loving me enough to hurt me.” (46:09, Hubie Brown via Hank Smith)

5. The Name Change: Divine Partnership (51:20–56:10)

• Abram to Abraham / Sarai to Sarah
  • The name changes, featuring the ‘H’ (hey) inserted, symbolize God entering into covenantal partnership with both.

    “…the rabbis, when they read the story, they see that God inserted himself right into their names, which is a lovely tradition.” (51:37, Dr. Anderson)

  • Sarah receives her own promise, becoming “the mother of nations…Kings of people shall be of her.” (Gen 17:16)
• Wordplay and Laughter—Isaac’s Name
  • Both Abraham and Sarah “laugh” at God’s promise of a son in old age; the Hebrew root “tzachak” carries into their son’s name, Yitzhak (Isaac).

    “Everything around Isaac is joyful laughter. His name means he laughs. Yitzhak.” (56:11, Dr. Anderson)

6. Sarah’s Divine Encounter (58:59–66:13)

• The Lord Calls Sarah by Name
  • The visitors at Abraham’s tent know Sarah’s name and deliver a promise she will bear a child—demonstrating divine intimacy and knowledge.

    “This is God asking for Sarah by name. So it’s a little bit like a suspense. Like, wait, how do they know my name? Right.” (58:59, Dr. Anderson)

• The Dialogue about Laughter
  • Sarah laughs “within herself”; God notices and gently calls attention to it, revealing not only His knowledge but also a tender rapport.

    “Then the Lord…can hear what Sarah’s even maybe thinking. ‘Why did you laugh, Sarah?’ And she’s like, ‘I didn’t laugh. Nobody heard it. It was in my brain.’ But the Lord heard it.” (62:09, Dr. Anderson)

• Nothing is Too Hard for the Lord
  • The episode’s central spiritual question emerges:

    “Is anything too hard for the Lord?” (64:02, Dr. Anderson referencing Genesis 18:14)

  • The panel reflects on situations in life where the Lord’s ways seem confusing, but faith ultimately proves redemptive.

7. Wrestling with God—Abraham’s Intercession (66:13–68:50)

• Abraham Negotiates for Sodom
  • Abraham’s bargaining is seen as Jewish archetype—wrestling with God is part of spiritual growth.

    “They love to do that. They see this story and also the story of Jacob wrestling with the angel as kind of their ancestral birthright…don’t be afraid to bring our questions, maybe even our hard questions to God.” (66:51, Dr. Anderson)

• Radical Compassion
  • This negotiation is read not as Abraham questioning God, but God giving Abraham space to display compassion and to grow.
• The Power of One
  • Even ten righteous people could have saved Sodom—an object lesson in the cumulative effect of goodness and prayer.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Sarah’s Equality:

  “You can see them really being put on equal footing because Abraham is seeking to become a sar, and his wife’s name is Sarah, the feminine equivalent.” (22:28, Dr. Anderson)

• On Grief and Faith:

  “That baby is going to be Hagar’s. And if you notice, the description of what’s going to happen for that baby is very much like the promise to Abraham. Suddenly, Hagar is getting everything that Sarah was promised…and it has a divine signature right at the bottom, right? ‘I’m taking the baby away. Love, God.’ So heartbreaking.” (36:10, Dr. Anderson)

• On Divine Intimacy:

  “Because Sarah is listening…she laughs within herself…And then the Lord, this figure in this group of messengers…can hear what Sarah’s even maybe thinking…” (61:14, Dr. Anderson)

• On God’s Surprises:

  “Jesus’s dumb idea. I’ve never heard that phrase in my life. Then you find out it’s brilliant. Okay, I see what you were doing there, Carly.” (70:07, John Bytheway)

• On God’s Possibilities:

  “Is anything too hard for the Lord?...The Lord’s going: Pretty good with the impossible. Did you have you read about me?” (64:02, Hank Smith & John Bytheway)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-------------|--------------------------------------------------------------| | 06:27–14:00 | How to Read Ancient Scripture & Oral Tradition | | 13:09+ | Sarah as Abraham’s Equal: Wordplay & Coronation Motifs | | 23:11–39:27 | Surrogacy, Hagar, and Family Power Dynamics | | 39:27–51:20 | Spiritual Heartbreak, Modern Parallels, & The Currant Bush | | 51:20–56:10 | The Significance of the Name Change (Sarai to Sarah) | | 58:59–66:13 | The Divine Encounter: Laughter, Isaac, & God’s Promises | | 66:13–68:50 | Abraham Bargains for Sodom: Wrestling with God, Compassion |

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Conclusion

This episode presents a deeply engaging and fresh look at Genesis 18–23, giving particular dignity and spiritual stature to Sarah and Hagar as matriarchs. Through expert exegesis, personal stories, and lively discussion, listeners are invited to see these ancient stories as vital templates for navigating disappointment, waiting in faith, and embracing covenant relationships today.

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Coming up in Part 2:
The panel continues into the emotional climax of Abraham’s journey—the near-sacrifice of Isaac—exploring themes of anguish, faith, and trust in God’s will.

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Listen and find show notes at followhim.co

Transcript

[Hank Smith]

Coming up in this episode on Follow.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Hip, a name change in the ancient world. This is something that happens in scriptures fairly frequently. It also is something that would happen in ancient ritual. Again, I'm going to take us through the cultural context. In fact, a lot of times it would happen in what I would call a coronation ritual, which is a ritual that makes a king a king or a queen a queen. It marks a change of status. It marks a change of where you are. But I think here too, it marks a change in spiritual growth.

[Hank Smith]

Hello, my friends. Welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name's Hank Smith. I'm your host. I'm here with my co host, John, by the way, whom God hath made to laugh. John, that is Genesis 20, verse 6. Sarah said, God hath made me to laugh. Don't you feel like that's you, John, God made you to laugh?

[John]

Hank, People have laughed at me my whole life. That must be what it means.

[Hank Smith]

Yeah, laugh with me or at me. I'm okay either way. I wonder how many people out there have thought these two laugh too much. Well, we can quote Genesis 20. God hath made me to laugh. Now, John, I'm actually not sure it means what we think it means. We have an expert here to let us know if it actually does. Her name is Dr. Carly Anderson. Carly, Dr. Anderson, thank you for being here on Follow Him.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Thanks. I'm happy to be here. I'm really excited.

[Hank Smith]

This is going to be really fun. John, Abraham, Isaac and Sarah Lot and his salty wife. What do you think? What comes to mind when you think of all these stories, all that's going to happen in these chapters today?

[John]

There just seemed to be more women included in the stories in the Old Testament than some other places. And I really like that. I love that Sarai's name gets changed to Sarah along with Abram being changed to Abraham. I love stuff like that. That it's this is the two of them. And that's why I'm really glad we've got Carly today because I think she knows something about this.

[Hank Smith]

I've often thought we call it the Abrahamic covenant, but maybe someday we ought to call it the Abrahamic Sarah covenant because it really takes both of them. Carly, we're so glad you're here. What are we going to do today? What are you looking forward to?

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Glad you brought up the idea of Abraham and Sarah and how they work together. That's what I want to look at mostly in these chapters. I want to look actually at Abraham and Sarah and Hagar first, we'll talk about how to read these stories because they're not immediately easy. So they're really old stories. Then I want to take a minute to reframe Sarah and Hagar. I want to look at them maybe with some different lenses than people have looked at them before. Couch it in what we know about what happened in the ancient world and the way the Hebrew is stylized at the end. What I hope to do is show how all three of them, Sarah, Hagar and Abraham, actually have really parallel stories through these chapters and through some of the chapters that are earlier. I'll bring some of that into you. See that they're really following a similar arc.

[Hank Smith]

I've noticed in these chapters, life gets complicated. And for our listeners, life gets complicated.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Very complicated. These are really human figures, like we're reading about them. And there's a lot that's pretty relatable.

[Hank Smith]

You know, you're just going, wow, they have emotion. Wow, they are mortal now. John, we haven't had Carly on the show before, which I feel badly. We've had so much fun before even hitting record. I thought, we gotta have Carly back every two weeks. What do you know about her? Have we done a background check? Where did we even find Carly?

[John]

I think, Hank, that you have a better answer to that. Someone recommended her.

[Hank Smith]

Yep. A couple of people, actually.

[John]

Yeah. Oh, let me tell you about Carly. She's an assistant professor of Religious studies at Northern Arizona University. She holds a master's in Hebrew Bible and Ancient Near Eastern studies from BYU and a PhD in religious studies from Arizona State. Carli's work examines biblical women at the intersection of text and culture, tracing their interpretations across time and traditions. Carly has presented nationally and internationally and spent many years living in and researching the Holy Land. She's a contributing author for the book called Seeing Women in the Old Testament. She lives outside Flagstaff and she's currently learning to play the ukulele. Maybe we can prevail upon her to do our closing hymn.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

I'm not that good.

[Hank Smith]

Well, John, by the way, plays any musical instrument you can hand him in about an hour. He'll have it down.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

I know.

[Hank Smith]

So you can do a duet.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

I know. In about three years. I'll do a duet with you, John.

[John]

Carly, I was excited when I saw that book, Seeing Women in the Old Testament. When did that come out?

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

It's brand new. It just came out this fall. It's specifically for this year's Come Follow Me Study.

[John]

Wonderful.

[Hank Smith]

Women in the Old Testament. Awesome. The lesson this week is a wonderful question. Is anything too hard for the Lord? Abraham and Sarah's life, filled with events both heartbreaking and heartwarming, is evidence of a truth Abraham learned in a vision that we are on earth to be proven to see if we will do all things whatsoever the Lord our God shall command. Would Abraham and Sarah prove faithful? Would they continue to have faith in God's promise of a large posterity, even when they were still childless in their old age? And once Isaac was born, would their faith endure the unthinkable, a command to sacrifice the very son through whom God had promised to fulfill that covenant? Abraham and Sarah trusted God, and he trusted them. In these chapters, we find stories from the lives of Abraham, Sarah, and others that can prompt us to think about our own willingness to believe God's promises to flee wickedness and never look back and to trust God, regardless of the sacrifice improving us. God also improves us. Wonderful. All right, Carly, how do you want to start? You said you wanted to go back a couple of chapters.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Yeah, I do. I want to look at the stories of Sarah and Hagar that are from chapters earlier than this week's section. I also first want to introduce the listeners on ways to think about how to read these stories. You can read them in the English and you still get a lot. You can hear the emotion, you can hear the trouble. You can hear the stuff they're wrestling with. But it's also a really ancient text, really old stories in Hebrew. This ancient language. Yeah, this text is actually really, really stylized. And that's just a fancy word that means every phrase, every word is important. Things will repeat. There'll be word plays, allusions to other things. It's layered in antiquity. If you keep that in mind, then you can look for the ways that the ancient editors or authors or people putting these stories together, how they put them together to give them the meat and the meaning that they wanted them to have. I actually have a really great opening for some dad jokes, if you guys have any good dad jokes.

[Hank Smith]

Oh, okay. You have come to the right place.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

I thought that that might be true. One of the suggestions for why these stories are so stylized and why sometimes each word or certain words or phrases are going to be repeated or have a really specific meaning might be because originally, before they're written down, they come from an oral tradition. Just imagine sitting down and listening to somebody tell a really great story. If you're hearing it in the Hebrew, you're. It's easier to hear, but you can still see it in the English. It was organized around skillful listening, if that makes any sense. When we sit down in the movie theater and we're watching, say, an action flick or, like a chick flick, we kind of know where it's going to go. Then if it doesn't go there, it goes there a different way. We're surprised, right? We're like, oh, that was a cool twist. Similar things like that can happen in this text. And as a listener, they might hear it. So there'll be a lot of word plays that have. I don't want to call them like puns. Words will sound alike. And as a listener who is receiving this story, you'll hear that, and then it'll cue you over to someplace else, or it'll remind you of another idea from a different story. And it pulls it all in together. The best part about dad jokes is that there's a sound. Things sound the way you think there's. And then it tips you off to something else, and that's where it's funny. This story can have humor, but it also can have really elegant connections to other ideas and other themes in the biblical text.

[Hank Smith]

Carly, we lose a lot of that when it goes to English, don't we?

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

We do.

[Hank Smith]

That's probably hard for someone like you who can. You're like, oh, it was there, and you're missing some good stuff.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

That's what I want to show you today. I want to show you this stuff that you might miss if you're reading it in English, when you know it's there in the Hebrew, and then you go back to the English, you can see it. It's clearer.

[John]

For me, a classic example that was so interesting was Proverbs 31, which is, as we all know, an acrostic poem. What's an acrostitch poem? No, an acrostic poem. It goes through the Hebrew Alphabet and outlines these attributes of a virtuous woman. So it'd be like in English saying, oh, A is for her attitude, B is for her beauty, C is for her charity, D is for her delightfulness or something. But in Hebrew you would see that, but in English you don't. We get to see with a Hebrew scholar here that we lose something in the English translation, and Carly's gonna fill it in for us.

[Hank Smith]

I am really excited.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

We talked about how it's a stylized text and probably had an oral tradition. But I also wanna talk about Abraham, Sarah and Hagar. They're stylized themselves. It's not just the story. These are big figures for us, but also in the ancient context, their stories are really culturally heavy. They have a lot of meat to it. The wild thing is that they're really succinct as they're telling us all these heavy things about these people. You'll see that as we go through the verses. Let me give you a good example that you could probably relate to. For example, a mythic figure in our culture would be Santa Claus. I say Santa Claus. What's the first thing that comes to your mind?

[Hank Smith]

North Pole, red coat, long white beard.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Yeah, good.

[Hank Smith]

Flying through the world in one night.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

A whole cloud of images that'll come up when I just say Santa Claus. You might given some more thought. You might even go to like a 4th century saint, Saint Nicholas, who was this real person. And then also red suit. You might even go to like adjacent characters like Rudolph. If you went to Rudolph, he's part of that cloud. Right. The elves. Yeah. In the North Pole. Then you might even go to a bunch of movies that tell the story or that retell the story. So that's all part of the cloud. You definitely probably think of a specific month. I don't even have to say the name of the month. You know the one. Right. And you probably even think of weather. It's just intuitive. It just comes up as soon as I say Santa Claus. When I say that these figures, Abraham, Sarah and Hagar are culturally weighted. That's what I mean. They just. I'll say the name or the name shows up in the text and there's this whole cloud of stuff that follows them as the story gets told. That cloud is there too, for the ancient readers and for us.

[Hank Smith]

Okay. Yeah, I can see that. When I think Abraham, a lot comes to mind. I can think of a lot. Stories, general conference talks, the temple. A lot comes to mind.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Yeah, he's indispensable. Honestly, so is Sarah. And honestly, so is Hagar. We touched on this already, but I'll say it anyway. The linguistic difference. It's easy when you're reading an English text to think in an English context. What I'm going to try to do is wiggle that loose a little bit and try to take us back as much as we can to the ancient world and put it in that context.

[Hank Smith]

Carne, I can tell your students in Flagstaff they're very blessed. You are an excellent teacher.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Oh, thank you. Thanks. I really love this stuff. It's fun.

[Hank Smith]

And that's part of being an excellent teacher, I think. Enthusiasm. What did Elder Maxwell say? John, Part of what we might be missing in the. In the good gospel teacher is A sense of enthusiasm about the gospel, which could prove highly contagious. Carly, you have it. Let's keep going.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Let's start with Sarah. I want to reframe her. To do it, we have to go back a couple of chapters. Abraham and Sarah and Hagar. It's a tricky story. I talk to friends who love the Scriptures, but they read the story, and they don't always come away loving Sarah. She can come across in the story, in the English at least, as kind of mean. Even my friends who are like, I really want to love Sarah, they read it and they don't quite know what to do with it. I want to reframe her first, and then I'll reframe Hagar. And you can see how they're really. Their stories are deeply intertwined, and also Abraham is part of that. But they're people who are working on their place in the plan of salvation, and they're growing in all of the ways that we grow. And their stories are really, really relatable. Sarah, I want to reframe her because the way we read her, we don't get to see how majestic she is. It's not easy to see that in the English. I want to show her as an equal to Abraham. And the text really sets her up like that. We've been reading through chapter after chapter about Abraham and God coming to Abra and setting up the covenant with Abraham and really creating that relationship with Abraham. Sarah has that too, but we miss it sometimes. The place I want to go first, actually, is to chapter 12, where Abraham and Sarah go to Egypt. And it's kind of a weird story. A lot of commentators don't know what to do with it. But in some of the research that I've looked at, when Sarah and Abraham get to border, they're going to be recognized in a really specific way. You remember this story where Abraham says, please say you're my sister because that will save my life, basically. This is gonna be a little bit complicated to get to the point, but stick with me, and I'll try to get us there together. The idea of Sarah and Abraham at the border and Sarah being somebody that's vulnerable because she's beautiful. It reads that she's beautiful, also reads in the Hebrew. And this is really, really stylized and poetic. It reads as though she is what I'm going to call a sacred woman. A woman who is recognized by the people that are looking. The Egyptians, the princes of Pharaoh, they're looking. And she's recognized as a woman who represents divinity. One of the things that would legitimize a king's kingship would be to be basically married to the right woman. This is this idea of sacred marriage or hieroscamos, and those are fancy terms. But all I want you to hear from this is what makes a king a king in the ancient near east has a lot to do with who he's married to. In these coronation ceremonies, there would be a female present in the sacred marriage part of the ritual. It's cool in a lot of ways, but what I want to highlight is what it means for Sarah, because the woman in those ceremonies was usually a princess or a priestess or some kind of woman that was connected to divinity really closely. Scholars, when they look at this story on the border, what they're seeing is that Sarah is recognized immediately as one of those women. Now, this makes the story more interesting because, yes, Sarah is beautiful. The verses definitely say she's beautiful. The people who recognize Sarah, they're given the name princes. And the Hebrew term for that is actually the term sar, But Sarah's name is related to that same root. So you can hear sar is the masculine and Sarah is the feminine. So the people at the border recognizing Sarah are sars. So the sars see Sarah, and they see, oh, we recognize something in this person. And that's the wordplay. That's part of the wordplay. You're going to see this word play through Sarah and Abraham's story a lot, but it's. It really is, I think, a highlight here because it points out Sarah's being noticed by these princes from Pharaoh's court, putting her on equal territory with them just by that word sar and Sarah. Then they praise Sarah. Let's go to Genesis 12, verses 14 and 15. Hank, will you read. Let's do verse 14.

[Hank Smith]

I love it. Genesis 12, 14, and 50. And it came to pass that when Abram was come into Egypt, the Egyptians beheld the woman, that she was very fair. The princes also of Pharaoh, saw her and commended her before Pharaoh. And the woman was taken into Pharaoh's house.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

So you can hear the princes in there. In the Hebrew, you'll hear the princes and Sarah, we hear that she's very fair. And in fact, Abraham says she's very fair. And then there's this word in verse 15 where they commended her before Pharaoh. The word in Hebrew is actually hillel. It's a word that means to praise or commend. It fits the context, but actually, it's very rarely used for anybody else. But divinity. You can hear this in Our hallelujah Hallelujah is hallel. Hallelu praise. And then yah is the Lord. So praise the Lord. But the princes are doing this hilleling. They're praising and commending Sarah with this idea of this beauty. And these princes and the praising, it really is a poetic device to set up Sarah to be this kind of sacred woman.

[Hank Smith]

This is hitting home to me because I am married to a Sarah. I'm going, I know what this feels like for other men to go, wow, she's beautiful. What's she doing with that guy?

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Well, I'm going to up the stakes. Even if Sarah is recognized as beautiful, but also a princess, and the princes can see the princess, but then also they praise her using this word that's usually associated with divinity, it really elevates her. Now, if we put it in the context of the ancient world, the ancient near east, suddenly, if Abraham is married to Sarah, then that makes Abraham in a pretty good position regarding kingship.

[Hank Smith]

I'm liking this.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

I know Sarah really ups the ante for Abraham. But then also remember this, Abraham and Sarah and whoever's with them, they're going in as foreigners. He's walking in with a royal entourage. It might even be seen as a political threat to Pharaoh for Sarah to be in another person's house. Then when Abraham says, please say you're my sister. And in the pearl of great price, God says, tell everybody she's your sister. He's protecting Sarah, he's protecting Abraham. Because this is a really dicey political situation.

[Hank Smith]

Okay. I've never understood that before.

[John]

It's a great insight. Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

In that context, it fills it out a little bit. And then actually, we probably won't spend much more time on this. But in chapter 20 with Abimelech, it's a very similar story. And that it happens twice for Sarah when both she and Abraham are foreigners or sojourners, they're not native, or they're. They're entering territory that's not theirs. It fits as a parallel. Both times they're going in and Sarah is in a way legitimizing the kingship of Abraham in a territory where he's not the king. Does that make sense? It creates that tension naturally.

[Hank Smith]

Why would the sister. Would the sister then. Oh, okay. That's not a threat.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Yeah. Well, you'll notice both times what happens is Pharaoh and Abimelech give Abraham lots of riches. What I think is happening, what scholars, when they're looking at this, they see it's. It's a way of merging families or like creating diplomacy between these. But Sarah going into the house is meant to legitimize probably the kingship of Pharaoh or the kingship of Abimelech, but it doesn't work because right away problems occur. The problems occur because that's the tension. Sarah is legitimizing the kingship of Abraham, not the other person.

[Hank Smith]

So he really is a political threat.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Yeah. That makes the story make a little bit more sense, and it's less about Sarah just being beautiful, although she definitely is. What I see in that context is we can see from all of the experiences of the earlier chapters that Abraham is connected to the divine, that Abraham is talking to God, that Abraham is forming a relationship with God. But it's small and it's hidden in the Hebrew. But you can see in these verses that so has Sarah. She has established that relationship. She is actively recognized as a woman of the covenant, as a woman connected to the divine.

[John]

So Sarai and Abram perhaps perceived as a threat to the pharaoh and his position.

[Hank Smith]

She's connected to God in a big way.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Yeah.

[Hank Smith]

They don't maybe know exactly what's happened.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

But they can see it, they can identify it. And the wordplay, the sar, Sarim and the Hillel, the praising, the commending, it's all to point to Sarah is special. Sarah is connected to the divine and people can see it.

[Hank Smith]

Yeah, you would miss that if you didn't speak Hebrew.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Yeah, yeah. It's hidden. Now we've set her up as Abraham's equal. I do also want to just bring in for the pearl of great price. Abraham, in that very first chapter, talks about seeking after the blessings of the fathers. One of the things he says he wants to become or seeking after is to become a prince of peace. That word prince is, you guessed it, sar. It's lovely to mean. You can see them really being put on equal footing because Abraham is seeking to become a sar, and his wife's name is Sarah, the feminine equivalent.

[Hank Smith]

I'm going to share all these things with my wife Sarah.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

I know you should. All Sarahs should know this.

[John]

Yeah.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Let's just jump right to 16. Now that we have established Sarah as a spiritual equal to Abraham, then when we go into her story, we can appreciate more what she's going through. We can appreciate this is a woman who knows God. This is a woman who is living in the world to serve God. Then let's jump into Genesis 16. I know this is not what we're studying this week, but I want to go back. We have to really, to understand this week's passages, we really have to understand what happens in 16. I guess I want to set the stage because we know the story, right? The story is that Abraham's been being promised over and over and over in the last couple of chapters by God that he's going to have a lot of kids. He's not having any kids. Sarah is barren. That's not happening for them. And then in 16, this is where Sarah actually actively makes a decision. It's clearly her decision. You can see that in verse one, it says, now, Sarai, Abram's wife, bear him no children. And it just sets it all up. She had a handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. And we'll talk about those terms more in a little bit, verse two. And Sarah says to Abraham, behold, now, the Lord hath restrained me from bearing. I pray thee, go in unto my maid. It may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abraham hearkened to the voice of Sarah. You can see that Sarah's leading this out. This is her idea. This is what she wants to do. And there's a couple of cool phrases in this. We're introduced to Hagar, who is going to be a major player in this whole thing. Sarah and Hagar's relationship is going to be something that we want to keep an eye on. I want to put this in a context. We have several extant law codes that talk about this exact situation. This is a surrogate pregnancy. They didn't have a lot of tech back then. This is how a surrogate pregnancy would be set up. Because surrogate pregnancies, I mean, they're tricky even today, but back then, also tricky, maybe even trickier. We have several, like I said, several law codes that establish how this operates and set up protections for all of the parties involved. When we look at those law codes, it really fits what's happening with Sarah and Hagar. The idea is when scholars are reading this, they're seeing that Sarah is taking an active role. It's something she can do legally. It's a possibility for her that she will use Hagar as a surrogate mother, but the child will belong to Sarah. Does that make sense? It's not really necessarily in there, but when you look at the law codes and how it's set up, it's clear that there's the surrogate mom and then the other mom. That child belongs to the other mom. The surrogate is just providing that service. It fits within that, and it gives us, I guess, a step back in the story, but it also makes it more complicated. And as you're gonna see how everything goes down, it gets pretty dicey on a lot of levels, but also really actually tricky and hard. Specifically for Sarah, I do wanna just point out in verse two, when it says that I may obtain a child by her, you can see it setting up that surrogacy. The child will belong to Sarah, but she'll obtain it through Hagar. In the Hebrew, it doesn't read I'll obtain a child. It actually reads, I will be built up. You can see that it's Sarah understanding her role in this whole process and figuring a way to do it according to these law codes. Legally. This is a situation that is not just going to have emotional ramifications or relational ramifications. It's actually going to have legal ramifications as well. There's a structure for how this is all happening. She's gonna be built up and be able to provide the heir for Abraham that God and everyone else is expecting. And I wanna put this in more of a tribal family setting, right? It's not necessarily a nuclear family setting. This is like a tribal family setting. Lot's part of this family, Abraham's part of this family, and Sarah. But Abraham and Sarah seem to be the leading couple. Sarah can mean princess, it can also mean chieftainess. They're in the position of authority. There is a hierarchy. Hagar is listed as a handmaiden and she's listed as a servant. But in the ancient near east, the way they thought about servants in this context, it was a possibility for these people to be treated like family and have a lot of position and a lot of authority. Abraham has a servant like this. Think of Eleazar. Eleazar is so trusted that if Abraham doesn't have an heir, Eleazar's going to get all of the stuff. He's going to become the heir apparent. When we think of Hagar as a maidservant, it's very likely that it's just the female counterpart to that. She's close to the family. She is a good friend to Sarah. I guess the hierarchy is there, but it's. It's a warm. A warm connection, probably, and a lot of trust. Now we'll talk more about how Hagar's status changes. When I get to Hagar, I want to reframe her too. But for Sarah, what's going to happen is Hagar gets pregnant, then something changes. It says, if you want to go to verse 4, Genesis 16, verse 4, John, do you want to read this.

[John]

Genesis 16:4. And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived. And when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

It's this word, despised. The Hebrew is a root, kalal, and it means to belittle. What you can see is it's moving the hierarchical structure. We even get the title for Sarah. She's a gebura. She's a great lady. I mean, I want to just picture scales. There's this sense that Hagar, where she stands in the family, is moving the scales a little bit. The Guevara, the great lady, is now becoming little in her eyes. It's probably an idiom. It's probably a phrase they would have recognized. And again, that same idea is right there in the law codes. If the surrogate mom breaks the structure of the hierarchy or loses respect or stops showing respect to the other mother, the. The receiving mother, then here's what can happen. What happens is exactly what the law codes say could happen. This is a tricky situation any time in history, and then in this cultural context, especially tricky because Sarah probably picked Hagar because she trusted her, because they were friends, because they worked together really closely, like Abraham and Eleazar. Then for this power dynamic to shift or to have Sarah feel disrespected in some way, this is the really interesting part. Then you get the family dynamics, but also it's not just Hagar that's involved in this. Hank, will you read verse 5, Genesis 16? 5.

[Hank Smith]

Sarai said unto Abram, my wrong be upon thee. I have given my mate into thy bosom. When she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes. The Lord judge between me and thee.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

This can sound a little bit harsh. It can sound even a little bit mean. We're dealing with family dynamics, but we're also dealing with kinship dynamics and also power dynamics. But what's really interesting in this, and I want to you to see this so you can appreciate Sarah. The text is really sparse about what happens. All we know is that there's a belittling happening for Sarah, and it's not okay. Now, it will be very human for her not to like it, but there's this whole legal structure that protects everybody, and Sarah's getting the raw end of it. This last phrase in verse five is really important, and it's easy to read over, but it's actually what's called an oath formula. When she says, the Lord, judge between me and you, what she's actually saying is, I'm calling in divinity to judge this situation, it's a really serious phrase. She is not kidding around. It's also probably got some legality to it, but she is basically saying, this has not been just to me. Sarah understands herself to be in the right. Actually, so does Abraham, because if you see his response in verse six, he immediately says, and I'll read that Abram said to Sarai, behold, thy handmaid is in thy hands due to her, as it pleaseth thee. He basically backs off, Carly.

[Hank Smith]

This isn't about Hagar getting pregnant. This is about Hagar getting pregnant, then trying to shift the power dynamic, disrespecting Sarah as the chiefess, looking with contempt on her, or she's lost stature. So it's not about the pregnancy?

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

I don't think so at all. What I see in this text is that the pregnancy was expected, but the shift in power dynamics was not.

[Hank Smith]

Ah, okay, that helps.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

We're on the verge of some real tragedy, especially if we presume that Hagar and Sarah are good friends.

[Hank Smith]

If you just read it in the English, Carly, it almost makes Sarah look a little petty. Okay, well, we hired Jared to have a baby. She's having a baby. Now you're mad. That's not what it says.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

I don't think so. No, not in the ancient context.

[Hank Smith]

Thank you. This is. This is so helpful.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

It helps reframe Sarah. She knows what's going on. She's trying to stand up for the rights of everybody. You'll see that through the story. When I read Sarah in this context and in the Hebrew, she's so protective of everybody, which seems exactly like what the matriarch of Israel should do. Right? The matriarch of the house of Israel should do, A Covenant woman should do. She's just taking care of it. She also needs things to be just. She doesn't let them slide when they're not. Most scholars, when they look at this verse and what they're seeing is it is a restitution, where it will bring the balance back to the family, to the kin group. What one of the law codes says and what a few scholars who read this see almost demotes Hagar so that she's not in that high standing with Sarah, but she's a regular servant. Not necessarily like Eleazar anymore, but more of a regular servant. And she doesn't like that. But also she's thinking, like, what do I do? This power dynamic. What, have I broken something? I mean, I'm. I'm putting psychology into Hagar, but you can appreciate where she's coming from. Too. This isn't comfortable for anybody. It's emotional, it's relational. But it's legal too, and Sarah knows it.

[Hank Smith]

Carly, wouldn't you say Hagar knows it too? Yes, I overstepped.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Yeah. Actually, Hagar's gonna have an encounter with an angel who's gonna also say, yep, go back. You did overstep. Hagar runs. You know the story. She runs. Says she headed toward the wilderness of Shur. Most scholars are gonna see that as the border of Egypt. They assume she's going back to Egypt, back to her home country. But she gets stopped at a well. For the ancient reader, when you hear the word well, or the ancient listener, when you hear well, you're like, oh, something good's gonna happen. Because wells are kind of special places and just go through in your mind scripture stories that happen at wells. Cool things happen at Wells. It says, the messenger of the Lord appears. But here's where things get heartbreaking, especially for Sarah. The first thing the angel says is, this is in verse eight. He says, where are you going? Identifying where she's at. And she's honest. I'm running away from my mistress. But in verse nine, the angel says, go back. And he uses that elevated title, give Orah. Go back to your mistress. Go back to the great lady. He sets up. He reinforces the structure of how things need to be. A lot of scholars have read this as God responding to Sarah's oath formula. God is gonna judge between you and me because I've been wronged here. An angel shows up and says, yep, go back. And sets up the structure again. But this is the heartbreaking part, and this is part nobody saw coming. The next thing the angel says is in verse 10. The angel of the Lord said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for the multitude. Verse 11. And the angel said of the Lord said unto her, behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael, because the Lord hath heard thy affliction. We're talking about Hagar's baby. But remember, in the context, this isn't technically Hagar's baby. This was Sarah's baby suddenly. And we don't really even get to hear the heartbreak behind it. Sarah, who has set up a system that's gonna work for her. She's doing everything right. She's showing up in the way she needs to show up. She's following the legal codes. This was supposed to be her baby, right? This was the baby that was gonna help create the lineage, both the spiritual lineage and also the literal her and Abraham. The angel comes up and says, go back. The power dynamics are right. He justifies Sarah, but at the very next sentence, he takes away Sarah's baby. It's not Sarah's baby anymore. Now it's Hagar's. How heartbreaking. Sarah now has to deal with the fact that God acknowledged, yeah, you're right. This wasn't just what happened, wasn't just for you, but also that baby's not yours anymore. That baby is going to be Hagar's. And if you notice, the description of what's going to happen for that baby is very much like the promise to Abraham. Suddenly, Hagar is getting everything that Sarah was promised. And then the worst part about it is that it has a divine signature right at the bottom, right, I'm taking the baby away. Love God. So heartbreaking. I hope that this humanizes Sarah a little bit. And also you can appreciate the depth of her struggle, the depth of her trial. Something you're going to see as we look at all three of their stories is all three of them are going to either lose or almost lose a son. This to me, opened up my heart for Sarah because we don't hear very much about her response to this. Hagar goes back, has the baby. Some of the ancient traditions, rabbinic traditions, say that Sarah loved Ishmael, treated Ishmael like he was her own son, but everybody knew it was Hagar's and that this line was going through Hagar, which means Sarah's gotta figure out another way again. Now we know the story. We know what happens. We know that God's like, I have an even better option for Sarah. But she doesn't know that. She's not gonna know that for almost 13 years. This is a weight that Sarah carries.

[Hank Smith]

Is the Lord or the angel saying, sarah did something to deserve this? Or he's just saying, this is your baby, Even though legally lawfully, this was Sarah's plan. She got what she wanted. She got her baby. This is Sarah's baby. Not anymore. Sarai's baby, I should say there's not really a connection.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

It's Sarah's, right. You gotta go back. The way you're being treated is legal and right and sound, but also just a complete turnaround.

[Hank Smith]

And it's probably like you said, the Lord knows she's going to have her own child. She doesn't know that. There's so many times in the Scriptures we think, oh, don't worry, in the next Page. Things are really great.

[John]

Yes.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

She doesn't know.

[John]

I want to make sure I'm getting this. It sounds like the pregnancy wasn't regretted. What was regretted was the belittling.

[Hank Smith]

Of.

[John]

Sarah in Hagar's eyes. And then that was what was regretted. And that is bringing these other consequences. But now we're getting to a place where the angel says, actually Hagar, contrary to the surrogate laws, whatever. It was actually Hagar. That's going to be your son. Sarah doesn't know this yet. Doesn't know she's going to have her own yet. Wow.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Yeah, she doesn't.

[Hank Smith]

When Hagar is running away, is she kind of stealing the baby?

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

You could read that. Yeah. Even ancient readers, maybe not the people in this story per se, but people maybe 2500, 3000 years ago, are going to know that Hagar's in the territory where her descendants are going to live. The story marks the territory, setting that up. Sarah's descendants are going to be in a different place. And it's also setting up a sense of their. The descendants, relationality. You can see it's very layered, the way that they're hearing it or the way that it's written.

[Hank Smith]

If I'm the reader and I'm a descendant of Ishmael, I'm going to read this different than if I'm a reader and I'm a Descendant of Isaac.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

2,500 years in the future, you're going to appreciate that we know that there's descendants from both mothers. These are two matriarchs of two very specific lines. But this is the moment where they've intertwined. I wanted to just spend a second to make this real for a minute. And we don't have to talk about maybe even surrogate pregnancies. Although I know that there are many people who deal with infertility and the heartbreak that comes from that. This doesn't have to be a story just about mothers or. Or even families. I was thinking about people that I know that have had a similar structure. Right. Where they did everything right. Then things turned on a dime suddenly, and it wasn't what they were expecting at all or the thing they were hoping for got taken away. Or the faith that that requires is a really unique kind of faith. You have to go deep, surrendering to the will of God and maybe even just surrendering that hope and trusting. You also have to rebuild trust. The being God, who you put all that trust in, seems to be the one that's, by the way, not your baby, turns it around. I love hearing about people's spiritual journeys, what goes on in people's hearts and minds, and, you know, how they navigate things and their experiences. And it helps me appreciate how God is at work in everybody's lives in such a unique way, can show up in these ways that sometimes can break our hearts or that can make us feel like we got turned around and then suddenly what we hoped for was gone.

[Hank Smith]

I think of Joseph of Egypt. That's my main go to when I think, this isn't fair. I've done everything you've told me to do. It seems that you're taking everything from me that you promised. And again, you and I have the benefit of knowing the next chapter. They don't.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Yep. They're just in it. They're just living it. That's what's so gorgeous. I think about being human and having this opportunity to grow and to be tested. I don't want this every day or I don't want this at all. The idea is what it pulls out of us is so transformative, but it's really uniquely transformative. And I see that in each of their three stories, their trials are so specific and unique. And the kind of faith that's required is really specific but very universal.

[Hank Smith]

Why send her back? I mean, she's gonna sit there holding this baby. This is my baby. I'm its mother. Right in front of the woman who. It's actually her baby. The way the whole thing was designed.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

It was supposed to be. Yeah, the surrogate. There's something about their connectivity. Hagar's descendants. Traditionally, this is going to be the Arab people. All of the Arab world identifies Hagar as a matriarchal figure for them. They see themselves as descendants of Abraham through her. It's setting up this matriarchal line of the mother and her descendants. But there is something really important about Hagar being there in the family with Sarah and Abraham. That connectivity is really important. And the way that they're interacting with each other, at least at this point in the story. I just want to tell this story. I got permission from my sister to help you appreciate the parallels between what's going on with Sarah and also maybe just in real life, it doesn't have to be about mothers or motherhood or surrogate pregnancies. Like you've just done everything right, and then out of nowhere, God changes the terms or moves something out of the way. My sister had a similar experience when she went to serve a mission. We're different in a lot of ways. Like, sisters were Very similar, but also different. I was nervous to serve a mission. I was really scared. Like, I was shy. I didn't really like talking to people. She was quieter than me, but so excited to go. Like, she couldn't wait to go. She got called to St. Louis, Missouri. She went to the MTC, did her weeks in the MTC, got to St. Louis. She was there one week. One week she got sick out of nowhere. So sick she couldn't walk. She couldn't get out of bed. They went to a couple of doctors, but nobody knew what was going on. She had been there just a week, and the mission president called her in and said, we need to send you home again. She was so excited. I cried every day for, like, the first two months of my mission, but she was like, I came here, right? I'm so excited to do this. And then she gets sick. And so she came home. And I remember my parents were taking her to doctors, and nobody could figure out what was wrong. She couldn't walk. Her legs were really unstable. She was just exhausted. Doctor after doctor, couldn't figure out what was going on. And then literally at 18 months, literally on the moment of 18 months from when she went to the MTC, they went to a doctor, and the doctor was like, I think I know what this is. And they started treating it, and it was immediately better. Very quickly started getting better. She says, I did serve a mission. It just looked really different from a lot of people's. Grew a lot spiritually.

[John]

Wow.

[Hank Smith]

I did everything right. This is a good thing that I want. I'm trying to get to the promises you have made.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Yeah, exactly.

[Hank Smith]

Why would you take this from me? To me? Yeah. It makes no sense. The Lord's saying makes sense to me.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Yeah, but the trust that takes. It takes so much trust. You have to rebuild it, and you have to go deep in hindsight. We were talking about this just the other day. It changed everything for her. She's a totally different person because of it and a better person.

[John]

I'm just thinking, as is often the case, the Lord tells us about an outcome, but he doesn't tell us how we're going to get there. Sometimes we have an idea of how we're going to get to that outcome, and it's wildly different than what God knows. So, like Hank said, we know what's on the next page, but they didn't.

[Hank Smith]

Both of you know this story. Hubie Brown. May 31, 1968. It was at a BYU graduation and it is still talked about to this day. I Won't quote the entire thing, but just some pieces, he says. Could I tell you a quick story out of my own experience in life? 60 odd years ago, I was in a farm in Canada. I. I had purchased the farm from another who had been somewhat careless in keeping it up. I went out one morning and found a currant bush that was at least 6ft high. I knew it was all going to wood. There was no sign of blossom or fruit. I had had some experience in pruning trees before we left Salt Lake to go to Canada as my father had a fruit farm. So I got my pruning shears and went to work on that currant bush. I clipped it and cut it and cut it down until there was nothing left but a little clump of stumps. As I looked at them, I yielded to an impulse which I often have. To talk with inanimate things and have them talk to me. It's a ridiculous habit. It's one I can't overcome. As I looked at this little clump of stumps, there seemed to be a tear on each one. And I said, what's the matter, current bush? What are you crying about? And I thought I heard that currant bush speak. It seemed to say, how could you do this to me? I was making such wonderful growth. I was almost as large as the fruit tree and the shade tree. And now you've cut me down, all in the garden will look upon me with contempt and pity. How could you do it? I thought you were the gardener here. I thought I heard that from that current bush. I thought it so much that I answered it. I said, look, you little currant bush, I am the gardener here. I know what I want you to be. If I let you go the way you want to go, you'll never amount to anything. But someday, when you're laden with fruit, you're going to think back and say, thank you, Mr. Gardner, for cutting me down. For loving me enough to hurt me. Then he goes on. He talks about 10 years past. He's in the First World War. He was working his way up the ranks. He was ready to be appointed a general. He took the train to London. The man invites him in, the man who he thinks is going to give him this promotion. The man says to him, brown, you are entitled to this promotion, but I cannot make it. You have qualified and passed the regulations like you said. You did everything right. You have had the experience. You're entitled to it in every way. But I cannot make this appointment. The man leaves to go answer a Phone call, and Hubie Brown takes a look. Over on his desk, right at the bottom of this history sheet of Hubie Brown in large capital letters, this man is a Mormon. Now, he said, I knew why he couldn't make the appointment. The man excuses him, and he gets back on the train, and he goes all the way back to his base. He gets to his tent. And he said, bitterness rose in my heart. I rather vigorously threw my cap on the cot. I clenched my fist and I shook it at heaven. And I said, how could you do this to me, God? I've done everything I know how to uphold the standards of the church. And I was making such wonderful growth. Now you've cut me down. How could you do it? Then I heard a voice, sounded like my own voice. The voice said, I am the gardener here. I know what I want you to be. If I let you go the way you want to go, you'll never amount to anything. And someday when you're ripened in life, you're going to shout back across the time and say, thank you, Mr. Gardner, for cutting me down, for loving me enough to hurt me. He then goes on and gives the rest of this wonderful, wonderful message. And right at the very end, he says this. I say to you and to him in your presence, Looking back over 60 years, thank you, Mr. Gardner, for cutting me down.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

It's a beautiful story.

[John]

The Book of Mormon phrase comes to mind. He doeth not anything. Save it be for the benefit of the world. We might not see it. At first.

[Hank Smith]

I wonder, Carly and John, if there's angels who have our story in front of them, like we have these peoples, and they're like, oh, don't worry. The next chapter, it goes really well.

[John]

Boy, like your sister Carly. Amazing.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Yeah. We never know. But sometimes in hindsight, a lot of times in hindsight, you think, oh, I wouldn't change that because of what we gain from it. Doesn't make it easy. Doesn't make it fun.

[John]

What's the country music song? Sometimes I thank God for unanswered prayers.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Yeah.

[John]

Because he has a better way of bringing you.

[Hank Smith]

I think that was Elder brooks in the 1990s.

[John]

So good, so good.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

So now that we've put Sarah in this really, really heartbreaking place, I want to point out, first, she doesn't lose it. She stays true. She stays solid. The way we know that. I think agent listeners would have known that is what happens in chapter 17. She gets renamed. I've been calling her Sarah, but that's just how she is in my Heart. She's been Sarai for this whole thing. And Abraham has been Abram. But it's in verse 17 that they're gonna get renamed. They're gonna have a name change, a name change. In the ancient world. This is something that happens in scriptures fairly frequently. It also is something that would happen in ancient ritual. Again, I'm gonna take us through the cultural context. In fact, a lot of times it would happen in what I would call coronation ritual, which is a ritual that makes a king a king or a queen a queen. It marks a change of status. It marks a change of where you are. But I think here, too, it marks a change in spiritual growth. Abram becomes Abraham. And you can hear the H in that. And then Sarai becomes Sarah. And if you look at the English, you can see that she's an AI at the end. And then that eye drops off and it becomes an H in Hebrew, that's going to be the letter hey. There's this beautiful rabbinic tradition about this specific chapter in this story where their names change. Because in Hebrew, the letter hey or the letter H in English is an abbreviation for God's name. The rabbis, when they read the story, they see that God inserted himself right into their names, which is. It's a lovely tradition. It really is evocative of what's happening in the chapter. We know already that God is very invested in their lives, that God's very present, that there are walking examples, walking witnesses of God. People recognize them as that. Especially after what Sarah has just gone through. I can see this as a leveling up for her. She becomes a new person. It's God really inserting himself even more into our lives. If Sarah thought she was forgotten, she wasn't. And this was a good way. There's this moment in chapter 17, verse 16, where God says, sarah's gonna get a new name. She gets this beautiful promise. I'll start with 15. And God said unto Abraham, as for Sarah, thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah with the H shall her name be. Here's this beautiful blessing promise, verse 16. And I will bless her and give thee a son also of her. Yea, I will bless. She shall be a mother of nations. Kings of people shall be of her. In the Hebrew, it sets up this sense of belonging. The kings of people are going to belong to her. Sets up yet another matriarchal line. And it's very similar to what happened for Hagar. She is going to set up a royal line. Kings are going to belong to her. And we know that she's becoming the founding king ancestress of the house of Israel. From her is gonna come Isaac. And from Isaac, Isaac and Rebecca is gonna come Jacob. And then from Jacob and Rachel and Leah and Billa and Zilpah are gonna come the 12 tribes. She's becoming this founding ancestress, this founding mother. And it's a royal line. We've seen her in her beauty recognized by the Egyptians, and now we're seeing her. That being reinforced by God and saying, this woman is queenly. This woman is a matriarch. Abraham actually responds to it. It's in verse 17. It's an interesting response, but it's gonna set up another wordplay. In verse 17, it says, Then Abraham fell upon his face and laughed and said, in his heart shall a child be born of him that is a hundred years old. And shall Sarah that is 90 years old bear. I wanna just read a part of that phrase in Hebrew so you can hear it. And I want you to listen for the name Isaac, because the name Isaac is in here. And there it is. Can you hear it? Yitzhak? Abraham falls on his face and he laughs. There's a couple of ways you can have this laugh be. But one of them is a joyful laugh. He's falling on his face and he laughs. Now, this is gonna be similar to Sarah's response because everything around Isaac is joyful laughter. His name means he laughs. Yitzhak.

[Hank Smith]

Yitzhak.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Yitzhak. And the second part of the syllable is like a guttural. So kind of like scratch your throat. Yitzhak.

[John]

Yitzhak. That's great.

[Hank Smith]

Which is what John does when he laughs. All right.

[John]

I think that.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

So you'll never forget it.

[John]

One of the things I love about these ancient cultures is how often a name indicated something like that or indicated a mission. You got to be really careful what you do when your wife announces she's expecting. Because back then, they just named the kid that. If you stub your toe and your wife says, I'm expecting.

[Hank Smith]

Ah.

[John]

And Stubby was born on, you know.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Stubby. Well, what's really beautiful is this idea of laughing is just going to go all the way through the story. And then my friend and colleague Matt Bowen points about to a way that Jesus actually uses it. Okay, so I think we're finally to chapter 18. Chapter 18 starts with a little bit of what I'll call, like dramatic irony. This is a storytelling device where the listener or the audience will know something that maybe the Actors in the story don't know. In verse one, it says the Lord appeared to him. This is gonna be Abraham on the plains of Mamre. And Abraham is sitting in the tent during the heat of the day. As you read this story, we see Abraham trying to figure out what's going on. Who are these visitors? We, as the listeners or the readers, know it's the Lord. So something special is going to happen. These messengers show up. They start talking to Abraham. In this story, Abraham is outside, and Sarah is in the tent. That might be stylized, too, to create almost like a sacred space for Sarah. Does that make sense? Abraham is out meeting the messengers. What's interesting is in verse nine, the messengers ask for Sarah. This is especially cool. They basically call her by name. Where is Sarah, thy wife? And Abraham says, behold, in the tent. This can seem like a boring verse, but what I want to point out is if we're reading it carefully, there's a couple of ways they could know her name. The first is they know the people in the area. They know Sarah. But these seem like they're travelers coming through. And Abraham is treating them with hospitality. So they may not know the area. Maybe Sarah and Abraham are really well known in the area. That's also very possible. But it could also be a little hint that these are not ordinary visitors. They know Sarah's name. Does that make sense? And they call her by that rename. Hey, is Sarah your wife? Where is she? We know that God is going to be somehow part of this conversation. God is in this group. This is God asking for Sarah by name. So it's a little bit like a suspense. Like, wait, how do they know my name? Right.

[Hank Smith]

How do you know?

[John]

Yeah.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Wait a minute. Because Sarah is listening. Then in verse 10, we get this crazy promise. Hank, do you want to read verse 10?

[Hank Smith]

Yeah. He said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life. And lo, Sarah, thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Sarah hears this prophecy. In 11, we get a little explanation. In case you forgot, Abraham and Sarah are pretty old. Really old, stricken with age. Also, Sarah is not in the way of women. The Hebrew just is the course of women. She is in menopause.

[Hank Smith]

Doesn't seem long past that phase.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Yeah, long past childbearing. Then Sarah's reaction in verse 12, it's really fun. This is a very famous reaction. This is verse 12, and I want to read it in Hebrew so you can hear. Listen for our special word. It's going to Sound a little different because it's for Sarah. So there it is. Can you hear the tzahak in there?

[John]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

So it's not Yitzhak, it's not his name, but it's the same root. You can hear the tzahak in it. Can you hear it? Abraham laughed in chapter 17. And now Sarah is going to hear this prophecy that she's going to have a son. Her response will be the same, just like Abraham's again, they're always parallel. They're always paralleling each other in action. And the bekir ba is really important. It's translated as within herself. You can hear that it might be self reflective, but it also might be internal. She didn't say it out loud, she just said it within herself. This is fun. Just because in the same way that she lost the thing with a love God, that she's going to receive the new thing with a love God. Because the first tip off is the person in that group of people, that group of visitors, knows her name, maybe unusually. And then she hears the prophecy and she laughs within herself. And she says, after I'm wax old shall I have pleasure, my Lord? Being old also, this is assumed to all just be, maybe even in her mind. Then if you notice, in verse 13, the Lord says to Abraham, so the conversation is happening with the Lord and Abraham and Sarah, but Sarah's not quite part of it, eavesdropping and having her own reactions internally. Verse 13, the Lord said to Abraham, wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, shall I have a surety bear a child when I am old? And then he gives this gorgeous reiteration of the prophecy. And then the gorgeous, beautiful promise that God gives everybody who waits, is anything too hard? For the Lord at the time appointed, I will return to thee according to the time of life, and Sarah will have a son. And then in verse 15, Sarah denies saying, I didn't laugh for she was afraid. Then he presuming, meaning the Lord said, nay, but thou didst laugh.

[Hank Smith]

Yeah, yeah, you did actually.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

And it's a little. You can a little bit hear the humor in it. It's funny because if we keep that, she's saying it inside of herself, this makes it even more cool because first of all, the messenger knows her name. Wait, how does he know her name? And then in the next verse she's saying, is that really even possible? And she laughs internally to herself. And then the Lord, this figure in this group of messengers, or somehow part of this conversation, can hear what Sarah's even maybe thinking, why did you laugh, Sarah? And she's like, I didn't laugh. Nobody heard it. It was in my brain. But the Lord heard it. So it's kind of a fun way to read it. Now, there's other ways you can read that, but I like that way of reading it. This sweet interaction between the Lord and Sarah, that idea of being afraid. I want to tell you the Hebrew on that one. It isn't necessarily like she's scared that God heard her laugh. So I think that sometimes in Sunday school, that's the explanation that is immediate. Oh, no, I didn't laugh. I didn't laugh. But that Hebrew word is yareh. It can be translated as to be afraid. But it really is more of like, in awe. Sarah denied and everybody knows it's not true, but she's still going to say, no, no. She's like, backpedal a little bit. I didn't laugh. Because she's kind of in awe about what's happening right now. And then God says, no, you did laugh. Lo ki Tzecht. You can hear the Tzechak in there. Isaac bookends the story. And it's a fun story. Like, there's a little bit of humor to it, which the listener, the hearer, would laugh. As we're thinking about Isaac and his birth announcement, it all goes back to verse 14. Is anything too hard for the Lord? That's the story behind Isaac.

[Hank Smith]

It's such a beautiful, obvious question when we think that's impossible. That never happened. Lord's going pretty good with the impossible. Did you have you read about me?

[John]

I specialize in the impossible.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

That's right.

[John]

I'm just so intrigued with the idea that here's the Lord with a couple of other guys and just looks like three men. Many have entertained angels unawares. That verse, that's the Lord. I mean, it's the L O R D in small caps. This is Jehovah. I didn't laugh. Yes, he did.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

I know. Turns out he knows your name also. He can hear what you're thinking also.

[John]

I'm kind of in awe right now.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Yeah. You could just see Sarah, like, what's happening.

[Hank Smith]

Yeah.

[John]

Knows my name. He knows what I said in my heart. I am in awe right now.

[Hank Smith]

The woman of the well says, I perceive you're our prophet.

[John]

I perceive that important prophet.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

I'm putting some things together. Yeah.

[John]

And that was a well where good things happen at the well.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

That's right. Cool things are going to happen at a well. Yep. That's really.

[Hank Smith]

Carly, you've got shown us so much. If we wouldn't have gone back to see that original story, you wouldn't feel about this part of the story. The heartbreak she had experienced earlier. Here he is showing up.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Yeah. Like in her life, calling her by name.

[Hank Smith]

I thought you'd forgotten me. I thought you'd abandoned me. I thought you'd really betrayed me. And here you are at my house making promises and then calling me out for laughing.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Yeah. No joke. No, you did. There's this sweetness to the story. The laughter is really hard earned. But it's also funny. It's a cute story between them, but also, like you said, John, incredibly powerful because sometimes God will wink at us. Have you ever had a God wink? That was me.

[John]

I just think of this face to face encounter.

[Hank Smith]

Wow.

[John]

And what goes on later in 18 where he has this negotiation and it's.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Face to face about Sodom Abraham in this next part. It's a really powerful story. It becomes kind of an archetypal story for the Jewish people. When they think about themselves as descendants of Abraham and descendants of Jacob who becomes Israel, they see themselves in this story. Abraham is talking to the Lord face to face and negotiating with the Lord.

[John]

He's bargaining.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Yeah. Okay. Can you find this many? No. Okay. All right, let's go. How about this many? And there's so many beautiful elements to behind what he's arguing for. He's understood to be a deeply compassionate person. He doesn't want people destroyed. When I read Abraham, I see a man who just loves his family, all of them, and loves humans. He's deeply, deeply loving and compassionate, but he's also not afraid to negotiate with God. The Jewish people, when they read this passage, depending on the different tradition within Judaism, they'll wrestle with the Torah. They read the Torah and they try to. What could this be saying? What's the meaning behind this? Is this ethical? Is this not ethical? They love to do that. They see this story and also the story of Jacob wrestling with the angel as kind of their ancestral birthright. Sometimes stuff happens or there's a spiritual lesson and we can wrestle with it and try to figure it out or wrestle with God, not be afraid to bring our questions, maybe even our hard questions to God or things. Maybe we've been talking about impossibilities, but also, please, please, maybe this way instead of this way, wrestle out difficult things.

[Hank Smith]

I think the Lord is giving Abraham an opportunity to show how compassionate he is. Because the Lord could say, no, I don't want to talk about this. It's over. He's like, what do you want? What are you thinking? Show me your heart.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Yeah. What do you think about this?

[John]

I just love how at the end of verse 25, where Abraham is telling God how to be God. Shall not the judge of all the earth do right? That'd be far from thee to slay the righteous with the wicked. Don't you know your job?

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Yeah, he really does.

[Hank Smith]

How often do I do that? This Heavenly Father thing, I think you're doing it wrong. This would be the right thing to do.

[John]

This is what you're supposed to be.

[Hank Smith]

Like, yeah, you're supposed to do this for me.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

When I first started PhD school, I was up in Utah and I left. I went to Arizona. And for the first couple of years, I was there by myself. I was alone. I didn't have a lot of family. It was challenging in ways. It's just hard to describe. It was every level, professionally, emotionally, personally. It was just everything pressed down. And I remember talking to somebody who asked me when we were having a spiritual conversation about like, so what made you choose to get a PhD? And the truth is, I knew it was the right thing to do. I got a really strong prompting. A lot of miracles happened and doors opened. And when I got there, I didn't love it the first, probably two or three years. And it was hard the whole time, but what I would say, and it was my mantra. But I was like. I said it to this friend. She's like, why are you doing this? And I said, I don't know. It's Jesus's dumb idea. She looked shocked. The truth is, that became my mantra. Like, I don't know why I'm doing this. This is just Jesus's dumb idea. I'm sure it's gonna work out.

[Hank Smith]

I love the passive aggressiveness of I'm being faithful to this crazy idea.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

Yeah. But is anything too hard for the Lord? Because I knew it was right. I just wasn't having fun. It was really hard. Now, I wouldn't give that up. I wouldn't change it.

[John]

Jesus's dumb idea. I've never heard that phrase in my life. Then you find out it's brilliant. Okay, I see what you were doing there, Carly.

[Hank Smith]

Doesn't it seem also that the Lord doesn't want to do this? He's going back and forth with Abraham, going, give me a reason to not let these consequences play out. I don't take pleasure in suffering. What would Elder Maxwell call it? John, we're getting to agency destroying mode here. We send more spirits to this place.

[John]

I can't send anybody here. He bargains him down to 10 people. If I find 10 people, then even makes a way to get those people out of there and tells them, get out. Get out now and don't even look back.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

What I hear in the story too is never underestimate the power of what you bring to any given situation. That your covenants, the gift of the Holy Ghost sits with you and your prayers or your maybe even your reading of your scriptures, that can be a game changer. Even if there's just 10 of you in any given situation, the light of a single prayer in darkness is really powerful. So powerful it can stave off destruction.

[Hank Smith]

Coming up in part two.

[Dr. Carly Anderson]

You're feeling the anguish you're feeling. This is the moment the miracle's gotta come. I'm holding that faith and I'm keeping that in my heart. I want that to be true. He builds the altar, they lay the wood. They bind Isaac slow, slow, slow. And lays him on the altar upon the wood. It's just wild because you can hear momentum leading up to this first 10. And Abraham stretched forth his hand and took the knife to slay his son.