Joshua 1-8; 23-24 Part 2 • Dr. Camille Fronk Olson • May 18-24 • Come, Follow Me

Summary

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Podcast Summary: followHIM — Joshua 1–8, 23–24 (Part 2)

Featuring: Dr. Camille Fronk Olson

Episode Date: May 13, 2026
Hosts: Hank Smith & John Bytheway

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Episode Overview

This episode continues a multi-part exploration of the Book of Joshua, focusing on chapters 1–8 and 23–24 with guest Dr. Camille Fronk Olson. The hosts and Dr. Olson unpack the entry of the Israelites into the Promised Land, the conquest of Jericho, the significance of covenants, and lessons of faith, obedience, and agency. The conversation highlights scriptural symbols, the tension between ancient commands and modern values, women's place in the Old Testament, and offers personal and prophetic insights for listeners.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Entering the Promised Land & Renewing Covenants

• Recommitment Rituals (Circumcision & Passover):
  • Upon crossing into the Promised Land, Israel recommits to God through circumcision and celebrates Passover (Josh. 5).
  • John: “It's remembering and solidifying their commitment to the Lord... a new chapter in the life of the Israelites and a lot more expected of them now...” (00:04)
• Mana Ceases:
  • The end of manna (5:12) signals a shift from wilderness dependence to new responsibilities.
  • Dr. Olson: The Promised Land is symbolic of spiritual inheritance and progress.

2. “The Captain of the Lord’s Host” — Divine Guidance

• Joshua’s Sacred Encounter (Josh. 5:13–15):
  • Joshua meets a heavenly messenger identified as “the captain of the host of the Lord,” commanding Joshua to remove his sandals as Moses did at the burning bush, recognizing holy ground.
  • Dr. Olson: “We believe the captain... was Jehovah... same instruction Jehovah gave to Moses.” (04:03)
  • John: “Joshua’s name, Yeshua... becomes Jesus. Jehovah is salvation. It’s a great name.” (04:36)
• Imagery of Spiritual Ascent:
  • Crossing Jordan resembles baptism and a steep spiritual “climb” toward God’s presence.
  • John: “You cross over the Jordan... That climb... all the way up to Jerusalem... He brings you up there. It is uphill.” (05:11)

3. The Fall of Jericho — Faith, Symbolism, and Obedience

• Conquest Method (Joshua 6):
  • Instead of traditional warfare, Israel marches, trumpets sound, and silence is kept, culminating in a collective shout and collapse of Jericho’s walls—interpreted as psychological as well as physical warfare.
  • John: “That stillness, that quiet. Oh, I think psychologically that would be very unnerving... and then they shout.” (07:59)
• Rahab’s Rescue:
  • Rahab’s faith and the scarlet cord save her and her family—a parallel to Passover and a testament to faith and works (13:17–14:00).
  • Co-host: “Am I supposed to see a Passover type moment here where she has the sign? She has the scarlet thread.” (13:17)
  • John: “She doesn't only have a testimony... she puts that testimony on the line by risking her life...” (14:00)

4. Lessons of Obedience and Consequence: The Sin of Achan (Joshua 7)

• Violation and Punishment:
  • The taking of the “accursed thing” by Achan brings disaster on Israel in the next battle (Ai).
  • Dr. Olson: “There are consequences... lessons there for us. We are asked to answer truthfully and... do what we promised to do.” (18:34)
• Scriptural Interpretation:
  • Concern and discussion about the harshness of Mosaic Law and ancient violence.
  • Dr. Olson: “It's not telling you how to act. It's saying, this happened.” (19:50)

5. The Conquest Continues & Faithful Figures

• Caleb’s Faith (Joshua 14):
  • Caleb, at 85, requests his promised inheritance, showing enduring faith and courage.
  • Dr. Olson (personal story): Inspired by President Kimball’s “Give me this mountain” speech at age 84 (25:40–27:48).
  • Quote from President Kimball: “…I welcome that exciting prospect and feel to say to the Lord, humbly, give me this mountain. Give me these challenges...” (26:43)

6. Women’s Legacy & Inheritance: Daughters of Zelophehad

• Bold Advocacy (Numbers 27 & Joshua 17):
  • Zelophehad’s daughters approach Moses and, later, Joshua to claim their inheritance, setting a precedent for women’s rights.
  • Dr. Olson: “Women in Judeo-Christian countries... have latitude for women to inherit today. Because it goes back to this.” (33:55)
  • John: “We know their names... but they are more frequently known as the daughters of Zelophehad. Their father's name was not forgotten.” (34:17)

7. Joshua’s Farewell Sermons (Joshua 23–24)

• Call to Courage and Covenant Renewal:
  • Joshua, now old, reminds Israel the victories were the Lord’s; urges them to keep the covenant, avoid idol worship, and be “very courageous.”
  • Dr. Olson: “Constant vigilance. It's constant reminding, it's constant renewing of covenants... it's essential.” (36:07)
• Agency and Choice:
  • “Choose you this day whom ye will serve...” (Joshua 24:15) is interpreted as the ultimate call to agency.
  • Dr. Olson: Reads from Elder Dale G. Renlund: “Our heavenly Father's goal... is to have his children choose to do what is right and ultimately become like him.” (39:45)
  • Co-host: Quotes Elder Neal A. Maxwell’s talk warning against postponing spiritual decisions: “Joshua did not say, choose you next year... he spoke of this day while there is still daylight...” (52:06)

8. Aftermath & Joshua’s Legacy

• Faithfulness of Israel:
  • Joshua’s generation keeps the covenant; faith diminishes in subsequent generations (Judges 2:6–10).
  • John: “It’s a tribute to Joshua that [his] generation... remained faithful and kept that covenant.” (44:44)
• Joseph’s Bones:
  • Joshua ensures Joseph’s bones are interred in the Promised Land, linking Israel’s past and future.
  • John: “They took those bones... and now Joshua buried them in Shechem in Manasseh territory...” (50:47)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Captain of the Lord’s Host (Holy Ground):

  • Dr. Olson: “There was no attempt to stop Joshua from worshiping him... Joshua was told to remove his shoes while standing on holy ground, the same instruction Jehovah gave to Moses.” (04:03)

• On Rahab’s Faith:

  • John: “Faith is not true faith if it remains dormant.” (14:00)

• On Obedience and Consequences:

  • Dr. Olson: “Maybe we lie to the Lord and think, at least I can get my temple recommend. We might not have something quite as traumatic as this happen, but we do suffer, don't we?” (18:34)

• On Caleb’s Courage:

  • Dr. Olson (quoting President Kimball, 1979): “Give me this mountain. This is my feeling for the work at this moment. There are great challenges ahead of us, giant opportunities to be met. I welcome that exciting prospect...” (26:43)

• On Women’s Rights in the Old Testament:

  • Dr. Olson: “I owe Mala, Tirzah, Hoglah, Noah and Milcah my right to inherit.” (33:55)

• On Agency and Immediate Choice:

  • Elder Neal A. Maxwell (quoted): “Joshua did not say, choose you next year whom ye will serve. He spoke of this day while there is still daylight...” (52:06)
  • Dr. Olson: “That's an interesting phrase—until the darkness becomes more and more normal. That's kind of haunting.” (53:14)

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Selected Timestamps for Important Segments

• Joshua’s Meeting with the Captain of the Lord’s Host & Holy Ground: 01:34–04:36
• Symbolism of Crossing the Jordan and Baptism: 05:11–05:54
• Conquest of Jericho & Rahab’s Rescue: 05:54–14:37
• Sin of Achan & Spiritual Integrity: 14:48–19:39
• Caleb’s Faith at 85—"Give Me This Mountain": 25:40–28:03
• Daughters of Zelophehad & Female Inheritance Rights: 28:57–35:26
• Joshua’s Farewell and Covenant Renewal—Agency & Choice: 36:13–39:45, 52:06–53:46

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Takeaways & Application

• Covenants need continual renewal and remembrance, both as individuals and communities.
• Faith is more than belief—it requires commensurate action, often at personal risk or sacrifice.
• God’s plan prizes agency; genuine commitment to Christ cannot be delayed indefinitely without consequence.
• Spiritual inheritance and leadership transcends gender—courageous advocacy can shape history and doctrine.
• The legacies of faith (e.g. Joshua, Caleb, the daughters of Zelophehad) empower every generation to “choose this day” to serve the Lord.

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Closing Thoughts

The episode closes with a heartfelt reflection on Joshua’s character and mission, the inspiration we can draw from his example, and a call to choose devotion and courage in our own spiritual journeys. The hosts and Dr. Olson highlight how ancient stories resonate with ongoing discussions about faith, obedience, and the meaning of leadership in the modern world.

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Transcript

[Dr. Camille Franck Olson]

Welcome Back to part two with Dr. Camille Franck Olson.

[John]

The Book of Joshua, chapter five. First things they do after they get into the promised land. It's like they are recommitting themselves. It's remembering and solidifying their commitment to the Lord. We read about circumcision, which is all with the covenant and having another Passover. Having Passover there on that promised land. That's the context that John brought up earlier about the mana ceasing on the morrow. Verse 12, chapter 5, verse 12. The mana ceases. It's a new chapter in the life of the Israelites and a lot more expected of them now than has ever been before as they wandered in the wilderness. Now's the time to stand up and be true witnesses for their God and to show their diligence in the covenants that they've made.

[Co-host]

I probably shouldn't chuckle at this, but it said when the Canaanites heard that the river had been dried up, they're pretty nervous. You would think. Yeah, I think we are in serious trouble. That says their heart melted and there's no spirit in them anymore. I'm out.

[John]

It was one thing to hear them out there in the wilderness and hear of them going through the Red Sea, but now they are at the back door and they're coming right into our backyard.

[Co-host]

Yep.

[John]

Verse 13 through 15. The very end. It's an interesting little side story that is really maybe the very important part of this chapter. Joshua was by Jericho where Rahab lives and where they're going to go first and conquer first. And he lifted up his eyes and looked and beheld. There was a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand. Joshua goes up to him and said, are you for us or for our enemies? The man said, nay. You can hear him say, I'm captain of the host of the Lord. As captain of the host of the Lord am I. Now come. And Joshua fell to the earth and did worship him and said, what do you have to tell me? And the captain of the Lord's host said to him, loose thy shoe from off thy foot, for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so. Some have argued this is the Lord himself, because they actually bow down and worship him. And it is holy ground. Or is it someone who represents the Lord? This is to be symbolic of the Lord there, actually. And what is he saying? I'm here to fight your battles. That is holy ground. If that is the only reason that makes that holy ground, is it also holy? For what else is going to be happening and what the Lord will be doing in the future. What has just happened as they've come through the Jordan River, Is it holy ground because of what is going to be happening way down the road? That is the very area where the Son of God will be ministering. His mortal life spent teaching in that very area, on that very land as well. It is holy ground. Whenever you visit that land and step on so many areas, everywhere I think you step, there's something holy that has happened there. It is holy ground because of the Savior. He's telling them, I think, right from the beginning with his sword right there. They haven't even started.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[John]

And he's there.

[Co-host]

He did tell Joshua, as I was with Moses, I will be with thee. And this is somewhat like Moses's experience at the burning bush. Take your shoes from off your feet. This is holy ground.

[John]

It's very similar language, isn't it? And very similar experience.

[Dr. Camille Franck Olson]

Going back to Andrew Skinner and D. Kelly Ogden, our friends, they said, we believe the captain of the Lord's host, whom Joshua saw was Jehovah, whose name, immortality was also Joshua. First, there was no attempt to stop Joshua from worshiping him, even though others have been admonished not to worship when the heavenly messenger has not been the Lord. And that's what I thought about. Second, Joshua was told to remove his shoes while standing on holy ground, the same instruction Jehovah gave to Moses.

[John]

That's good we didn't mention earlier, but I think that is another interesting point, that Joshua's name, Yeshua in Hebrew, when you take it through the Greek and then Anglicize it, it becomes Jesus. Jehovah is salvation. It's a great name.

[Co-host]

Camille, could we make the case that the Promised Land is maybe the celestial realms I want to be in, and I have no way of getting over there. But then Jehovah, Jesus makes a way, makes a way.

[John]

And I think you can take that same imagery and say you cross over the Jordan River. You talk about that's how you enter the gate is through baptism. And it's an uphill climb. You know that. That climb from there some 1200ft or so, feet below sea level, all the way up to about 2,600ft above sea level where Jerusalem is. You go straight up there, where the presence of the Lord is. If you talk about the temple or celestial glory, I think you can see that. And he brings you up there. It is uphill.

[Co-host]

You were right on. That's where John the Baptist baptizes. This is the gate into the promised land. What a beautiful connection.

[John]

It's a great imagery. But there's Jericho in front, chapter six. Because of them being so frightened and their hearts melting within them. In verse one, Jericho was straightly shut up. They've closed it down, they've sealed it up. No one coming out or going in. And I find it real interesting. And this is not just the case of Jericho, but a lot of the cities that are conquered that we read about later in the book of Joshua really focus on the king or the leader and the mighty men of valor or their armies, it seems of anything as far as conquering. That's the focus. I mean sometimes it does. As every single person is destroyed, there's other hints that it may be more those that are truly threatening them militarily and. And they take away that threat.

[Co-host]

We have Dr. Ross Baron on for a consistent little they're called thoughts to keep in mind this year. And he talked to us a little bit about that. These people are going to have idioms that we don't pick up on. You have to live in the culture to pick up on some of these idioms. So some of these points where they said we annihilated everyone might be just an idiom for we won single handedly.

[John]

And total destruction may not necessarily mean every single person destruction might be chasing them out or them surrendering. Maybe that's just part of me not wanting it to be quite so bloody.

[Co-host]

Yeah. Which we do that with Rahab too. Right. We talked about how just negotiate this a little bit. And Camille, isn't the genre of this not just supposed to be like historical nonfiction? But it's also meant to give me some patriotism about being an Israelite. So there's going to be some, hey, we're the best.

[John]

Yeah, we win all the time and we win decisively. Even though we read how many of those other passages we said, well, sometimes we don't actually get rid of them all. Here's then the plan to take Jericho. It's a walled city. It's a double walled city. It's a fortress. And they're going to use. I call it psychological warfare because it's not a typical battle. Joshua tells them that he's going to have the armed men lead out and then have seven priests bearing the Ark of the Covenant follow and then the rest of the company follow after that. Each of the seven priests has a trumpet and they're going to blow at a certain that trumpet. Seven trumpets, seven priests. They're going to do this for seven Days, the first six days, they go around one time, just walking around the city of Jericho. Chapter six, verse nine. The armed men went before the priests and blew with their trumpets. And the rearward came after the ark, and the priests going on and blowing with their trumpets. So you hear the blowing of the trumpets. But then in verse 10, ye shall not shout, nor make any noise with your voice, neither shall any word proceed out of your mouth until the day I bid you to shout. Then ye shall shout. I just think what this would have felt like and looked like and sounded like for the people in Jericho. You get these people walking around and all you hear are these shofars is what really. Ram's horn has this really unique kind of sound, almost a morning sound, but not one sound from the people. That stillness, that quiet. Oh, I think psychologically that would be very unnerving. It would be spooky. You just watch them come around. And the next day, here they come again, and the next day, here they come again. And you go, what are they doing? Finally it is the seventh day, verse 15, and the dawning of the day. They're starting early. They've got to go around seven times. Do this seven times in that one day, verse 16, it came to pass at the seventh time that the priests blew with the trumpets or those shofars. And Joshua said, now to the people, shout, for the Lord hath given you the city. Oh, now can you just hear this after this Quiet. They shout. And what we read in verse 20. So the people shouted as the priests blew the trumpets. And when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout that the wall fell down flat, the people went up unto the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city. And the way it's recorded here, they utterly destroyed it. Both man and woman, young and old, ox, sheep, ass with the edge of the sword. I know reading one archeologist, Carol Myers, who made the comment that destruction and staying away from all this slaughter and all this death and everything that had been touched could be a way to preserve them from disease. You think of how fast disease could spread in destruction such as that. Two things come up with this. The first one is, first, when this walls come down, only Rahab the harlot shall live. She and all that are with her in the house because she hid the messengers. Then you come over here and verse 22, the two spies that had spied out and met Rahab before they are told go to the harlot's house and Bring out thence the woman and all that she hath. I think they know her name. And the young man went and brought out Rahab, her father, her mother, her brethren, I would add, her sisters and all that she had, and brought them out. They left them without the camp of Israel. That would be something maybe just for quarantining for a time again because of what has happened. Then they burned the city. But verse 25, Joshua saved Rahab the harlot alive in her father's household and all that she had. And she dwelleth in Israel even until this day. There's one of the hints that this was probably written or compiled from other records later. To say Rahab is still with us till this day because she hid the messengers which Joshua sent to spy out her. I would add, because she is converted to Jehovah. She's made a covenant and she will follow through with that covenant.

[Co-host]

Camille, am I supposed to see a Passover type moment here where she has the sign? She has the scarlet thread.

[John]

They saw it, they honored it. She is saved by the power of the Lord.

[Co-host]

The Come follow me manual says something interesting that you could talk about. Said New Testament Christians saw Rahab as an example of the power of both faith and works. As you read Joshua 2, consider the role of Rahab's faith and works in saving herself, her family and Israelite spies. She did save the spies. She helped them. And she also had to put the cord out.

[John]

Yeah, it's the Hebrews 11 and the James 2. An example of faith and work. She doesn't only have a testimony and bear witness of that by the Spirit, but she puts that testimony on the line by risking her life and her family's life to not divulge the whereabouts of the Israelite spies or what's going on. And in helping them to escape, we have to act. We have to act. Faith is not true faith if it remains dormant.

[Dr. Camille Franck Olson]

And Joshua 6 closes with, so the Lord was with Joshua. There it is again. He's with Enoch, with Moses. Lord was with Joseph. The Lord is with Joshua.

[John]

Yeah. He is magnified in front of the people through these experiences, crossing through the Jordan River. And now what's happened with Jericho gets only solidified. It's the evidence of their faith. They showed that faith and say, we will follow. But they're getting evidence now. Yep, the Lord really is with him. It's going to be put to the test here because he's told him, don't take anything. There's wealth, there's gold and silver and precious things. That they will come across in Jericho. He tells them, do not take any of is. It's a Hebrew word that is translated accursed. It means set apart or band. And you think, how do those two fit? Together? In many ways, he's saying, this is set apart for the Lord. It's banned from you. And it all would go into the treasury of the Lord and not for them. There has got to be temptation, as you have been wandering in the wilderness. For these people, it's their whole lives. They have not known anything else but the wilderness. This is the first time to see these cities like this. And this thinking of living in a whole different kind of society than they've known in the wilderness, they come upon all this wealth. The temptation must have been incredible. Even the idea. Who will ever miss one little thing here or there? But the Lord told them back here, chapter six, verse 18. If you do take any of this, if you take of the accursed thing, you'll not only be cursed yourself, but you'll make the camp of Israel a curse and trouble it. As we get in chapter seven, and they go to take the city of AI, and they think it's just such a small place and we don't need very many men to go up and take that city. Surprise. Of all surprises. Those men are killed. The Israelite men are killed, and AI is successful, and they're going, wait a minute, this isn't supposed to be. And even Joshua is saying to the Lord, wait, wait, wait, wait, you promised. When the Lord says, nope, you haven't obeyed. Someone has taken something of the accursed, the banned substance set apart for the Lord. We find out later in verse 21 of chapter seven, what it was. A goodly Babylonish garment, a lovely piece of clothing. Oh, wouldn't that be lovely? Yes. Like, how are you going to sport that without people saying, where'd you get that? And 200 shekels of silver and a wedge of gold of 50 shekels weight. And the man who took it said, I coveted them, and I took them and I hid them in the earth. No one's coming forward. At first. Joshua finds out, and he brings them all together and saying, someone did this. And he divides them by tribe. And he identifies, it seems this is the spirit working in him of discernment. And he knows it's the tribe of Judah. And he then gets all the families of the tribe of Judah, and he names it and he gets this family. And then here's this man, Achan, verse 19. He tells him My son. Oh, can you just feel Joshua here? My son, I pray thee. Glory to the Lord God of Israel and make confession unto him and tell me now what thou hast done. Hide it not from me. And he does indeed. I have sinned against the Lord God of Israel and have done this. They see really early on there are consequences. And not only will Aachen die, but those men that went to take AI and were killed because Achan thought he could get this by. I think there are lessons there for us, aren't they? We are asked to answer truthfully and we are taken by our word that we will do what we promised to do. And we receive, for example, a temple recommend in response. Maybe we lie to the Lord and think, at least I can get my temple recommend. We might not have something quite as traumatic as this happened, but we do suffer, don't we? The Lord knows. I just think it is a reminder to that that we're not ahead because we go against what he's asked us to do.

[Co-host]

Who do you think you are trying to fool?

[John]

Right?

[Co-host]

Camille, I like that. You said these are difficult passages to read. They're complicated. John, who was it that said to us recently, something can be explanatory.

[Dr. Camille Franck Olson]

It was Ross Baron, but not prescriptive. It's not telling you how to act. It's saying, this happened. This happened. I'm telling you. I'm not saying now you should do this too. It's just this happened.

[John]

It did. Those days are different from our days. Law of Moses. You stoned people who went contrary to the law. That was part of the punishment.

[Dr. Camille Franck Olson]

I am not keeping any Babylonian garments anymore. That's it. So done.

[Co-host]

Just so you know.

[John]

Who needs a wedge of gold? Yes?

[Co-host]

Yeah, I'll be right back. I gotta go get rid of that. I picked it up at the DI

[Dr. Camille Franck Olson]

the other day, buried it under the tent. Sorry.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[John]

As it turns out, chapter eight, they do get the city of I in a very lovely little fun ambush story. That's a lot like Captain Moroni in the Book of Mormon, isn't it? I wonder if Captain Moroni got ideas from this.

[Dr. Camille Franck Olson]

So basically, you can be smarter than AI. That's what this is teaching us? I think that's what I see.

[John]

Oh, my goodness. I wonder if they ever thought of that.

[Co-host]

It's us versus AI.

[Dr. Camille Franck Olson]

Hey, chat. Can I beat this city?

[John]

Yeah. AI goes down in chapter eight. Okay. Until chapter 22 goes through a conquest after conquest and again, difficulties. They're learning. It's not without stumbling, but through it all we see The Lord is with them. I know these next chapters were not particularly assigned. I just wanted to bring out just two little footnotes in the next chapters. One is chapter 14 because we mentioned Joshua and Caleb earlier. It's nice to see the fruition of promises to Caleb in chapter 14. Starting with verse 6, Joshua is assigning the territory for the tribe of Judah and the sons of the faithful man in the wilderness who had died that would inherit in their father's name. Caleb is one of those who didn't die that actually gets to come in himself. He and Joshua. He tells us in verse 7 that he was 40 years old when Moses sent him to go spy out the land with Joshua and the other 10. Now verse 10, it is 45 years later. I think you can see that by this time probably at least five years or more have passed since they crossed over the Jordan river and they're conquering. He is now, end of verse 10, 85 years old. I am this day, fourscore and five years old he has been. In this area that's given to Judah is where These Anakim, verse 12. You can see them there. The giants. Remember those giants that people were so afraid of? The people of Anak. The I am is the plural ending for Hebrew. Adding an S to that is a little redundant to call them Anakims, the people that are living in that area. Joshua is ready to give to Caleb. And it's in that context that Caleb, age 85 says verse 11 as yet I am as strong this day as I was in the day that Moses sent me. Maybe could I say not physically as strong, but spiritually and ready to do whatever in the strength of the Lord. I can do it as my strength was then. Even so is my strength now for war both to go out and to come in now therefore give me this mountain. Wherefore the Lord spake in that day, for thou heardest in that day how the Anakim were there, and that their cities were great and fenced or walled. They had walls all around him. If so be the Lord will be with me, then I shall be able to drive them out as the Lord. It's a wonderful witness of Caleb. Later. 85 give me this mountain. I'll take care of those giants, don't you worry. I wanted to bring this up because I had just been hired to teach seminary the fall of 1979. I was the only woman teaching full time seminary. I was on this faculty of eight men and me saying why did they hire a woman? And I'm asking myself the Question, why did they hire me? Was Old Testament year. I'd never read the entire Old Testament. I was in for a lot of hard work. The hill was steep. President Kimball was the president of the church, and he was about that very same age, I figure, 84 years old. And he gave a talk in that October 1979 general conference that I have never forgotten. He told the story of Caleb when he was 85 years old and coming to face the Anakim. When he said, we can take this land 45 years before we can do it, President Kimball said this, quoting Caleb, give me this mountain. This is my feeling for the work at this moment. There are great challenges ahead of us, giant opportunities to be met. I welcome that exciting prospect and feel to say to the Lord, humbly, give me this mountain. Give me these challenges. Humbly, I give this pledge to the Lord and to you, my beloved brothers and sisters, fellow workers in the sacred cause of Christ, I will go forward with faith in the God of Israel, knowing that he will guide and direct us and lead us finally to the accomplishment of his purposes and to our promised land and our promised blessings. I felt that in President Kimball, his voice. He'd had those surgeries. He was frail then. And he said, give me this mountain. I was standing there as a brand new seminary teacher teaching 9th graders and 10th graders and juniors and seniors in high school about the Old Testament and circumcision. And I'm going, what am I doing? And he said, give me this mountain. I felt it. Can that work for me, too? Will the Lord be with me? Give me this mountain. President Kimball was a force I will never forget his influence on, giving me the courage to and strength to move forward. I just think that's a beautiful, beautiful part of the Book of Joshua.

[Co-host]

Thank you for pointing that out. I have always loved that story in numbers 13 and 14 about the 12 spies going in. And 10 say, they're giants and we're grasshoppers. And then Joshua and Caleb say, they're bred for us. We can do this. But then they're ultimately rejected, right? And then you get a bit of a backstory, something that you didn't get back in that original story. As Caleb says, oh, Moses pulled me aside and said, you will see the day that you will stand on that land. And he says, and now behold, the Lord hath kept me alive. As he said, he hasn't forgotten the promise.

[John]

He hasn't forgotten. And what land did he get? He got Hebron, where Abraham, Sarah, Isaac and Rebecca, Jacob and Leah are buried. It's quite amazing.

[Dr. Camille Franck Olson]

Wow. They divide up the lands and the cities, the towns. It says in verse 55, Maon, Carmel and Ziph and J U T T A H. Now, Utahns may be interested to know that in the list of settlements of Judah in chapter 15 was J u t t a h Jutah, Joshua 15:55, whose name is pronounced in Hebrew exactly as we pronounce Utah. And there was also a city of salt in verse 62.

[John]

So we've got artificial intelligence. Utah and Salt Lake City right here.

[Dr. Camille Franck Olson]

And now we're in Utah. I live in Utah. That's how I'm going to say it from now on.

[Co-host]

To us, maybe. Oh, well, that's not a big deal. But this is the land of our fathers to them. These are their stories.

[John]

There are still cenotaphs there and this beautiful talk about memorial that's there in memory of them still in Hebron. In numbers, chapters 27 and 36, we read about five daughters of a man named Zelophehad, who was very good in following Moses and was not among the rebellious ones. When Moses was talking about dividing up the land and saying, oh, we're doing it by tribes, and then from tribes, we're doing it by sons of the faithful men that will have died off by then. That's how you'll get your inheritance, through the sons of the faithful men. The names of their fathers who were faithful will not be forgotten. Well, we see at the beginning of numbers, chapter 27, five daughters of Salophehad. We even know their names, for heaven's sakes. Malaters, Ahogla, Noah and Milcah. It's so good, Mahla, Tirzahogla, Noah and Milcah. And they're named very frequently and in different order. Mahla is always first, but the others are a different order. None of them has married. If they haven't married, can I just tell you? They're young. I would say they are very young. And they have the moxie to come to Moses before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation and the men that are there and leaders saying, why should the name of our father be forgotten? Because he had no sons. That's the only sin he has. He has no sons. Give us, therefore, an inheritance in the name of our father. And the next verse says, and Moses took their cause before the Lord. Do you love it? And the Lord answers, moses, the daughters of Salopahad speak right. They shall surely receive an inheritance in the name of their father. He said, yep, that's right. And tells if they don't have daughters and there's not sons. What else? There's something here to make sure that everyone is included. It's such a lovely story in chapter 36 of Numbers. The whole book ends with these. They're the tribe of Manasseh. The men of Manasseh then come to Moses and say, but wait a minute. What if we get in there and they get property in Manasseh in their father's name, but then they marry someone in another tribe. What will happen? That property will go with that tribe and then it'll diminish Manasseh's property. Moses takes it to the Lord and the Lord says they shall marry to whom they think best. Semicolon. Only to the in the tribe of their fathers shall they marry. They get an extra little requirement when they marry. They need. If they want to keep an inheritance and keep their father's name alive, they will need to marry in the tribe of Manasseh. Then you turn the page. I think it's verse 10 that says, and the daughters of Zelophehad did all that the Lord commanded Moses. And they marry into their father's tribe and they preserve an inheritance. Moliter, Zahoglanoa and Milcah. It's pretty good. Can I just add. Do we. And I get so excited about this and that. I think it's just a very sad story that we never get to tell this and that so few people know about them. Is that women in Judeo Christian countries under Judeo Christian governments that are influenced by that have latitude for women to inherit today. Because it goes back to this. I owe Mala, Tirzahogla, Noah and Milcah my right to inherit. I think they're good ones to know. But here we are in the book of Joshua. And guess what? Moses is not there. So you come to chapter 17. Are you ready for this? Chapter 17, verse 3. But Salafahad, and that goes through his ancestry. Who's in the tribe of Manasseh had no sons. Remember them. But he had daughters. And these are the names of the daughters. Mala, Noah, Hoglah, Milcah and Tirzah. And they came before Eleazar the priest, and before Joshua the son of Nun, and before the princes. They've done this before. They're older now. They're married, I'm sure now to men in Manasseh. And they said the Lord commanded Moses to give us an inheritance among our brethren. Therefore, according to the commandment of the Lord, he gave them an inheritance among the brethren of our Father. And there fell then 10 portions of Manasseh. They gave an extra portion to Manasseh. Why? Because the daughters of Manasseh had an inheritance among his sons. And they received. Do you know there is an ancient city in the territory of Manasseh, Old Testament times, that has the city name Tirzah. One of the five daughters of Zelophehad.

[Co-host]

Zelophehad.

[John]

And guess what? Yes, they got an inheritance. But the thing of it is, we know their names, Malaterzahoglanoa and Milca. But. But they are more frequently known as the daughters of Zelophehad. Their father's name was not forgotten. They were not interested in the inheritance. They're interested in their father's memory. And they preserve that. It's a great story. And here we get the rest of it. Here.

[Co-host]

Camille, I love this. You've got these daughters who go to the prophet and say, this is a problem. And the Lord. The prophet takes to the Lord and the Lord responds with, not just them, but all the children of Israel.

[John]

Yes, you get the principle. I love these young women. I love the way they did it. And I love the way that they didn't make Cassane. It's not fair. We have to marry into our father's tribe instead of. My friends can marry anyone they want in the house of Israel. No, they did it. They preserved an eternal inheritance as a result as well.

[Co-host]

And look how that revelation came. It came as a result of, I want to go to the prophet and ask him about this situation.

[John]

And Moses listened to them and he took it seriously. He could have easily said, oh, you little girls, go home, you'll get married and you'll get an inheritance through your husband. But that's not what they were asking. The principle was, if this is to remember all the faithful families, our family will never be remembered because my father didn't have sons. That's it. Of course. I love it because the Lord shows here he is mindful of his daughters too.

[Co-host]

Camille, that's awesome. What a great story. No great connection across the books.

[John]

I didn't make it up. I'm telling you, it's free. With your price of your scriptures. It's in there. Go find them. Let's bring this down to our concluding two chapters, which are different from the rest. This is Joshua saying goodbye. He's preparing. I mean, you think of a parallel of King Benjamin when he's bringing his people together, he's going to remind them about what is important in chapters 23 and 24, verse 1. He's waxed old and stricken in age. He's seen a lot. And verse three, he says, and ye have seen all that the Lord your God hath done unto these nations because of you. He's telling them from the beginning, remember, this isn't about me. What we've accomplished together has been because of the Lord and because of you. Isn't that interesting? He gives them credit. You were important in this. For the Lord your God is he that has fought for you. And don't forget that. Now he's saying, I'm going to be leaving. But what does he tell them? Verse 6. Be ye therefore, very courageous. Interesting. It's like the Lord told him when he was starting. Now he's going to be leaving. How many people of these people have been born since they crossed over the River Jordan? Be ye therefore, very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the book of the law of Moses. I think he's not saying this unless the Scriptures haven't been meaningful and helpful in making him successful too, in helping him remember the Lord and to be true to his covenant with the Lord. Because it's very similar wording that you turn aside not for to the right nor to the left. Verse 7. That ye come not among those nations, these that remain among you there. He's clearly saying, there are still those that worship other gods that are living all among us. But be careful. Neither make mention of the name of their gods, nor cause to swear by them, neither serve them, nor bow yourselves unto them. I mean, what we see later on is never the fact that the children of Israel completely forget Jehovah. They just mesh so much of what the other religions are and their gods with Jehovah, and it doesn't mesh well. But cleave unto the Lord your God, as ye have done unto this day. You see, I mean, there's a compliment to the Lord saying, right now we're doing well then verse 11. Take heed therefore unto yourselves that ye love the Lord your God. Else, if not in other words, else, if you do in any wise, go back and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, even these that remain among you, and make marriages with them and go in unto them, and they to you know for a certainty that the Lord your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you, but they shall become stairs and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the Lord your God has given you. Be careful. I mean, just Anne again. You're doing well right now, but be careful. I mean, I think this is constant vigilance. It's constant reminding, it's constant renewing of covenants that it's not repetitious, it's essential. Then verse 16 is worth you notice. When ye have transgressed the covenant of the Lord, you notice he doesn't say if you do. I think he's fully well aware. They're going to be stumbling, there's going to be failing, but the Lord isn't going to forget them. When you've transgressed what he's commanded you and have gone and served other gods and bowed yourself to them, then shall the anger of the Lord be kindled against you. And ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he has given to you. Just note there are ramifications for that. And he warns them of that. Now, I don't know if this is another final sermon or if it's a continuation. It almost sounds like a different one. But he just doesn't seemed to skip a breath. And he's going on. Verse 2 of chapter 24. Thus saith the Lord God of Israel. Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time. Even Terah, the father of Abraham, that always tripped me up with the word flood. I going flood. I think we would read it clear as river. Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the river in old times. That's Abraham and his father Terah and the father of Nacor. Remember? And Milcah. They served other gods. And I took your father Abraham from the other side of the river. And I led him to this side of the river, to the land of Canaan, and multiplied his seed and gave him Isaac. He's giving the people a history lesson. I'm really nerdy about history. I just think the Lord loves history too. There's something about remembering what has happened, what great things God has done for our fathers. Where we've come from, we had worshiping idols. And then God took Abraham and he brought him over here on this side. Changes happen. They get to know the true God. And you get Isaac and Jacob and Esau. And verse five, you get Moses and Aaron and the plagues of Egypt. And you get crossing the Red Sea. In verse six, you see the history here. Verse seven, I put darkness between you and the Egyptians. Oh, don't you love the wording here of the King James? You get all this fighting in the wilderness and the way he protected them and fought for them in the wilderness. And verse 11, when you went over Jordan, I came into Jericho and helped you there, and I delivered you out of the hands of how many others? Then verse 13 and I have given you a land for which ye did not labor, and cities which ye built not, and ye dwell in them, and the vineyards and the olive yards which ye planted not. Do you eat? Gives them that history. Look where we've come and watch the hand of the Lord through all of it. We didn't do it by our strength. Now here's his application. He says, okay, what do we do with all this history? Here we go. This is the take home. Now therefore, verse 14. Fear the Lord. Again, we don't use the word fear that way, and I know we know that, but I think it might help to just say, reverence the Lord, have awe for him, love him with all your heart, might, mind and strength, and serve him in sincerity and in truth. And put away the gods which your fathers that served on the other side of the river and in Egypt, who they served. And you serve the Lord. And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, if you want to choose that, I guess that's your choice agency. But choose you this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the river are the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. That's not a surprise to them. They've watched Joshua his entire adult life choose God over and over and over and over again. Now he's telling them, you have a choice. It's up to you now. I'm not going to be here with you much longer. What are you going to choose? I'm not going to be here to remind you. How will you behave? Recently, October 2018, General Conference, Elder Renlund gave a talk. Choose you this day. There's something about this idea of agency and choice. There's so many things. He doesn't really dwell specifically on Joshua's story, but I think the principle of Joshua's putting before his people and what we are given every single day of our lives, we make that choice. Let me just read a few things from his talk. Our heavenly Father's goal in parenting us is not to have his children do what is right. It is to have his children choose to do what is right and ultimately become like him. If he simply wanted us to be obedient, he would use immediate rewards and punishments to influence our behaviors. Oh, I think that is very insightful. I don't want to put words in Elder Renlund's mouth, but I just think if we were immediately punished when we chose wrong or immediately given wonderful rewards, why would we obey? There would be no faith out of fear of punishment. If he just wanted us to be obedient, he'd give us immediate rewards and punishments. But he said God established a plan whereby we could become heirs in his kingdom, a covenant path that leads us to become like him. Personal choice was and is vital to his plan, which we learned about in our premortal existence. We accepted the plan and chose to come to earth. God's commandments are neither a whimsical set nor an arbitrary collection of imposed rules meant only to train us to be obedient. They are linked to our developing the attributes of godliness. He will not force us. He desires, expects, and directs that each of his children choose for himself or herself. That's it. Choose you this day. Book of Mormon teaches that same thing. Choose eternal life or eternal damnation. And that's basically what it comes down to. Joshua's giving that to his people and reminding them about that powerful gift of agency. And verse 16 they answer, God forbid that we should forsake the Lord to serve other gods. Verse 21. The people said, we will serve the Lord. And Joshua said unto the people, ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the Lord to serve him. They said, yep, we are witnesses. So verse 25. Joshua made a covenant with the people that day and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. How did they do? I hope this is not cheating too much, but can we go to Judges, chapter two we get just a little insight. How did these people do that? Heard Joshua and said, yep, put us down. We make a covenant. We are going to serve the Lord. We promise. Chapter two of Judges, verse six. And when Joshua had let the people go and the children of Israel went every man to his inheritance, and the people served the Lord all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders that outlived Joshua, how'd they do? They did it. Who had seen all the great works of the Lord that he did in Israel. And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the lord, died being 110, and they buried him. But the children, those people that heard that all that the life of Joshua and those that followed after him, that generation did it. Verse 10. And also all the generation were gathered to their fathers. But then there arose another generation after them that knew not the Lord, nor yet the works which had been done in Israel. I think it's a tribute to Joshua that generation, after he died, remained faithful and kept that covenant. And I don't know if we always recognize that. It's a beautiful one. Joshua is a great leader. You don't see him as much, and he's pretty humble. He would give deference to Moses all the time, wouldn't he? What he did in the strength of the Lord is inspiring. And he remained humble and faithful through it all.

[Co-host]

It's interesting that maybe in the beginning of Joshua you would think, I don't know if I could ever really see Joshua the way I see Moses. And by the end you're thinking, oh, no, don't go.

[John]

He had a different mission than Moses. I always think of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. Moses did so many wonderful things. Yep. He didn't get to go to the promised land, but that wasn't his mission. It's Joshua's mission. He did it marvelously. You know what else I think is interesting? That very end of chapter 24 of Joshua, he also kept the promise to take the bones of Joseph, son of Jacob, who helped them survive in Egypt. They took those bones Moses had out of Egypt and they carried them all through the wilderness. And now Joshua buried them in Shechem in Manasseh territory, Joseph territory. That's where he is buried and remembered there. That's part of this book, too.

[Dr. Camille Franck Olson]

Yeah. You wouldn't want to leave Joseph in Egypt, would you?

[John]

No, no.

[Co-host]

You did talk about a 1979 talk that you remember. This is close. This is Neal A. Maxwell, who was almost the Isaiah of his day. Right. You would think he's saying something. I know, it's wonderful. I just have to read it and find out what it is. He says, my brothers and sisters, I should like to speak of and to a particular group of important individuals. These are they who fully intend someday to begin to believe and to be active in the church, but not yet. He says, these are not bad individuals, but good individuals who simply do not know how much better they could be to such individuals. In the brief, imploring invitation which follows, be assured there's a real craving for your companionship. He says, if you do not really wish to commit now, then let me warn of the following. It's kind of a bit of a sarcastic talk, which, you know, I speak sarcasm. He says, do not look too deeply into the eyes of the pleasure seekers about you, for if you do, you will see a certain sadness in sensuality. And you will hear artificiality in the laughter of. I can't even say this word. Lice. License.

[John]

Licentiousness.

[Co-host]

Licentiousness.

[John]

Licentiousness.

[Co-host]

He said, do not look deeply either into the motives of those who deny God, for you may notice their doubts of doubt. He just keeps going. He says, do not think either about the doctrine that you are a child of God, for if you do, it will be the beginning of belonging. Do not dare to read the Book of Mormon seriously, or you may suddenly realize that is inlaid with incredibly important insights from a millennium of sac tree. He says, do not pray for you will get answers from a listening and loving father. I mean, the whole thing is this way. And then he says this. Yes, brothers and sisters, it is best to avoid all such things as these if you wish to continue to delay deciding about Christ and his church. However, Joshua did not say, choose you next year whom ye will serve. He spoke of this day while there is still daylight and before the darkness becomes more and more normal.

[Dr. Camille Franck Olson]

Beautiful.

[John]

That's an interesting phrase. Until the darkness becomes more and more normal. That's kind of haunting.

[Co-host]

It is, isn't it? It's such a fantastic talk and Elder Maxwell has given dozens and dozens of wonderful talks. But I ran into that one once and I just love the. The twinge of sarcasm in it. Oh, don't choose today. But make sure you don't look around too much or else you're going. You really do need to choose right now.

[John]

Yeah, because it's real. It's true. That power of the spirit is very real.

[Co-host]

Choose you this day,

[John]

not next year.

[Co-host]

He even says yes. For those in the church's courtyard or on its porch, Ask not for whom the church bell tolls. It tolls for thee.

[John]

For you,

[Co-host]

Camille. I don't want to let you go. This has been so fun. Honestly, I wish everyone could have the off recording time too.

[Dr. Camille Franck Olson]

We had a good time.

[Co-host]

We have to pause because we're laughing too hard. This has just been wonderful and thank you for coming back and thank you for taking the time to walk us through the Book of Joshua.

[John]

My pleasure. Sacred ground now.

[Co-host]

John and I both. I feel very uplifted and motivated to choose this day. And I love Joshua, which I didn't know if I would end up loving this Old Testament prophet. He pulls at your heart.

[John]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

With that, we want to thank Dr. Camille Frank Olson for being with us today. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen, and every episode. He would love this. He would say, yeah, baby, choose you this day. Steve Sorensen, we hope you'll join us next week. We are into the book of Judges on Follow Him. As a thank you to our wonderful listeners, we'd love to gift you the digital version of our book Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. It offers short, meaningful insights drawn from our past Old Testament episodes. Visit followhim.co. that's followhim.co to download your free copy today and you'll also find the link to purchase the print edition. Thank you for being part of our Follow him family. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew, David Perry, Lisa Spice, Will Stoughton, Crystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kabwica, Sydney Smith and Annabelle Sardin. Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to him. Follow Him.