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Thoughts to Keep in Mind #4 • Tabernacle and Sacrifice • Dr. Ross Baron • April 28 - May 3
01:27:48
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign.
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B
And welcome to another episode of Follow Him. We are excited today to have Dr. Ross Baron with us, which means it's another things to keep in mind. Instead of going through specific chapters of the scriptures, we're going to talk about the tabernacle and sacrifice. When I was a kid, the tabernacle was where the choir sang. This is the Old Testament tabernacle. We're going to have Ross teach us all about sacrifice. Hank, you looking forward to this today?
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C
Oh, my word. Well, I love Ross Baron with, with my whole soul and he knows it. John, here's what I have found over the years of studying this. When they come out of Egypt, like you've said many times, they there's a lot of Egyptian in them. The Lord wants to create a holy people. So what does he give them? He gives them this tabernacle and then they can enter the promised land. Aren't we a lot like that? Don't we have a lot of the world in us? The Lord gives us a temple and says, I can work the world out of you and you can enter the promised land. So I'm excited to just learn from Ross again. Our listeners love Ross Baron.
- [01:21]
B
One of my favorite episodes of Follow him ever and was when Ross talked about going with his stake and inviting the whole community and answering questions. I thought it was one of the greatest episodes we ever had. I was so inspired by that. So, Ross, welcome back. Thanks for helping us on this today.
- [01:39]
A
Thank you. Great to be here. I got a lot to say. I'm excited.
- [01:43]
C
We need to thank Kathleen for being so wonderful to let us have Ross. Everyone who is loving these, why don't you come onto YouTube, leave a comment for Ross and then we'll make sure he gets those.
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B
I would love to just let Ross go. I want to read these first couple of paragraphs from the Thoughts to keep in Mind section in the manual. I loved what it said because I thought, yeah, exactly. That's that. I'm ready to take notes. I'm really excited about this. Here's what it says. As we read the Old Testament, we sometimes find long passages about things that were clearly important to the Lord but may not feel immediately relevant to us us today. These chapters describe in detail Israel's tabernacle in the wilderness and the animal sacrifices to be performed there. The tabernacle was a portable temple, as Hank just alluded to the Lord's dwelling place among his people. Our modern temples share similarities with Israel's tabernacle, but they certainly don't match its description in Exodus and we don't kill animals in our temples. Okay, folks, despite what they're saying on YouTube, we don't kill animals in our temples. The Savior's atonement ended animal sacrifice almost 2,000 years ago. Yet despite these differences, there is great value today in reading about ancient Israel's forms of worship, especially if we see them as God's people in the Book of Mormon as a way to strengthen their faith in Christ. When we understand the symbolism of the tabernacle and animal sacrifice, we gain spiritual insights that will also strengthen our faith. Faith in Christ. I am so excited to turn it over to Ross and say, tell us about the portable mobile temple, movable Tabernacle and the sacrifices they did there.
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A
Great. I'm so excited about so many things we can talk about. I want to make it as relevant as possible to 2026 to any listener anywhere in the world, so that this can be a powerful testimony to them about connecting to what's going on in this part of the Old Testament. My first quote is from October 2021, Russell M. Nelson. That is the frame for our discussion today. Quote, the temple lies at the center of strengthening our faith and spiritual fortitude. Because the Savior and his doctrine are the very heart of the temple. Everything taught in the temple, through instruction and through the Spirit, increases our understanding of Jesus Christ. Oh, my. President Nelson. I mean, every word in that quote is on target. The idea that is going on in the tabernacle, the idea that's going on through the sacrifices, which can seem so removed from us in terms of what's happening, are so relevant to our current temple worship. When I was getting my PhD at the University of Southern California, I took a class from a man who had taken a class from a guy at the University of Chicago, kind of a famous historian of religion named Mercia Eliade. And Eliade wrote a book called the Sacred and the Profane. And it had actually a large impact on me. Eliade talks about profane. I want to zoom out for a minute, give you his views on it. And it resonated so powerfully with me back then with that President Nelson quote, Help us understand what he means by profane. Refers to everyday existence or when the sacred is absent or not recognized. For example, space. Space in a profane world is uniform. There's no special places, there's no special moments. Things are valued mainly for practical use, not with any symbolic or cosmic meaning. Time moves forward, but without an eternal view. Meaning is constructed by humans rather than revealed through the divine. Reality is experienced without Any kind of sacred structure for our purposes. What happens, according to Eliade, in every culture, through time that they've studied is the sacred intercepts or is revealed when it breaks through the profane and you get manifestations of it like a holy temple. The holy temple is breaking the plane of uniform or flat space. It creates special moments. It helps us reach up to divine. The idea, according to Elioti, is this idea of. He has this term called homo religiosis, which is like a religious human being. A religious human being gets meaning in the world from the sacred. It's not that we don't participate in the profane, all of us do, but that we need these special moments of breakup in the space, in time, in meaning and in function. I think that's super powerful. In fact, he says this. I'm quoting Eliade right now. Think about the creation story. The creation story occurs in Genesis, Moses, Abraham and the temple. Here's Eliade, who's not a Latter Day saint. Recovering the time of origin. The creation requires a ritual repetition of God's creative acts. For the religious being, sacred time makes the other time possible and endurable. By the repetition of the ritual, we remain in the sacred, which is another way of saying we continue. In reality. The repetition of the ritual. Listen to this sanctifies the world. You go to the temple and we repeat the creation story and people think, why?
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B
Why are we, why are we doing this?
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A
Recapturing the origin story sanctifies the world. It sanctifies the world. It creates that sacred moment in sacred space. That is such an amazing concept for Latter Day Saints and for anybody who's listening, who's not a Latter Day Saint. This idea of living in a profane world without transcendence can be troubling. It can be difficult because it's shallow and hollow. It leaves our existence a bit meaningless. That's why I'm so excited about this because like you were saying, Hank, the Lord takes his people out of Egypt and basically once they get to Sinai, the first thing we're going to do is we're going to make a covenant and we're going to build a temple. We're going to create sacred space because we're living in this. Can you imagine everyday existence in the desert which is pretty flat and pretty uniform? And now we're going to have a temple though. We're going to do temple rituals. We're going to recover the time of origin to make existence more than just eating and sleeping, the kind of normal activities we do every day. It's a powerful idea. And this is what I tell my students. I say, besides being worthy, one of the best ways to prepare for the temple is to study and search the word of God and. And the words of his prophets. When the temple is a complete and total surprise to someone, it's because they have not spent sufficient time in the scriptures and studying the words of prophets. Oftentimes you'll get somebody say something like they go to the temple and they go, that was kind of weird. And what they mean by weird, I think, because I don't love the word weird for the temple. I think they're saying it's different. It's not church.
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C
Definitely not what I'm used to.
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Yeah, it's not church. There's no Cheerios on the pews and there's no crying babies. It's not that. What you're doing is you're going from a Aaronic priesthood situation. The bishop is the president of the Aaronic priesthood, Church is the outer court, and then you're going into the inner court, Melchizedek priesthood, and it better be different. What I like to testify to is if it were not different, that would be a problem because you're going from Aaronic priesthood to Melchizedek priesthood. You're going from outward, the gospel of preparation to the power of God being made manifest. So it has to be different. And how do I understand that difference? I search the word of God. Now, there's another phrase in that thing I was saying where it says this idea of reality, the idea of capturing reality, we continue in reality. Elder John Grober was the president. He was at General Authority 70, pretty famous. He wrote some books. And there was a movie made about his experience in Tonga. He was the president of the Idaho Falls Temple. He talked about how people sometimes would say to him, I'm going back to the real world. And he started thinking about that and saying, wait, no, that's not true. That's the counterfeit out there. This is the real world, the transcendent, the sacred, this connection with God, the vertical. I love that. I'm going to suggest this too, that the tabernacle and the clothing of the priests is the Lord's way of teaching us through symbols how to get back to him. And I'm even suggesting literally the architecture, the way it is laid out, is a symbolic representation of us and how we can get back to God. The clothing the priests wear is also to teach me about Jesus Christ, his role and how I can return to him the scriptures in the temple. Have a reciprocal relationship. What I mean by that is the more we understand the scriptures, the more we understand the temple. And the more we understand the temple, the more we understand the scriptures and that we will actually see these connections. The temple helps us focus on the need we have for sacred space, sacred time, sacred clothing, sacred behavior. Our telestial fallen experience, freeways and the way people interact. You go to the temple and the temple, again, it's different. It's Melchizedek priesthood. We have sacred space, sacred time, sacred clothing and sacred behavior. Our spirits need that. We have to have that. Let's go back ancient now. We're bringing these people out of Egypt that's been part of their lives. Now we're going to go out to the Sinai and we're going to now have this experience with the tabernacle to recover the time of origin so that they can continue and have a connection with reality. That's kind of my introduction. Any thoughts, comments?
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B
I love it. The idea of all space is the same, but we're going to take some space, we're going to mark it off, we're going to separate it, we're going to set it apart and we're going to call it sacred space. Now what's interesting is they carried the sacred space with them. I remember hearing that the word profane comes from profanus. And when I looked it up, it said it means outside the temple. Which I thought was fascinating. When you think of profanity or in speech, there's things that don't belong in a sacred place, sacred space.
- [12:20]
C
Ross, thank you for talking about preparing for the temple. Our friend Matt Gray gave me a great little analogy. He said, if you are going to go to Paris and you speak zero French and you really don't even know that French is a thing, you're going to have a really frustrating experience. You can't communicate with anyone, you don't know what's going on, you can't find your way around. He said, but if you can speak just a little French, not be fluent just a little French, you're going to have a positive experience. You're probably going to want to go back. He said the same thing with the temple. In temple preparation, if I can get you to speak a little temple, which is part of what we're going to do today, you're going to have a great experience. I was one that over prepared my daughter Madeline. I mean we did hour long sessions before for a couple of weeks and she's like, dad, I think I get it. She Loved it. We got to the celestial room and she said, that was one of the best experiences of my life. Just a little bit of prep.
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A
I can speak a little temple, and I like that. Speak a little temple. Using Matt Gray's analogy, actually studying the word of God and the chapters that we're focusing on here. I know that Thoughts to Keep in Mind isn't chapter based, but the chapters about the tabernacle give us the syntax, if you will, the grammar, the vocabulary of the temple to allow you to speak temple. Because people think, oh, well, the Latter Day Saint temple, it's different. No, it's actually essentially in the scriptures and it's in the words of living prophets. When we understand it, it's like learning some French. We learn about the culture of the temple. We learn about the grammar of the temple, we learn about the vocabulary. I know some teachers don't do this, but I sing usually two verses of a hymn. I do that to create sacred space. I do that to set it apart. And I actually use it in my mind as we're literally creating a demarcation between whatever you were doing before and now we're in this moment. We're going to sing a couple of verses of a hymn. It unites us. We're going to pray, we're going to get into scriptures, we're going to invite the Holy Ghost. This is different. We're having a different experience that is, again, using Eliade's language, sacred and profane. We're making a line between what's out there and what's going on in here. And I love that. I mean, I think it's just powerful.
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B
I love the idea of. You talked about dress, you talked about the space. We have a different way. We talk about when we are versed in the scriptures and then we start seeing the temple in there.
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C
Hey, just a quick note. If you come over to YouTube and you watch this episode, you're going to see quite a bit of B roll footage of the old tabernacle that has been created and what Ross is talking about. We got that from our friend Daniel smith and his YouTube channel, Messages of Christ. If you want to bring the tabernacle to life for your class or your family, come over to Daniel's page. Messages of Christ. You'll love what you find there. He's got quite a bit about the Old Testament tabernacle.
- [15:32]
B
You see the visual and you go, oh, because they camped the tribes around the temple. It was the center. Then you go, oh, look how the tabernacle, not just metaphorically, but literally, physically, it was the center of everything. Anciently, when you just read the New Testament, even everything is happening at the temple. Speaking of as they were enslaved in Egypt, did they have a temple before Moses took them to Sinai? What was their set apart worship? Or did they have any.
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A
I think we have to make some inferences here because we have a fragmentary record. We have Genesis 1 through 6 covering from the creation, the fall and then up to the flood. Like we're talking 1600 plus years. We have an altar that's mentioned in Genesis 6. We know that from the pearl of great price, Adam and Eve build an altar right away. And we know that altars are all about worshiping God. We're making sacrifices. I'm going to make an inference that no, that temple worship was a thing. We don't have specifics right here. Let me give you a few allusions. First of all, the city of Enoch, God, he dwelt with them. I have to think that they had temple and temple worship. They became one heart, one mind, dwelt in righteousness and no poor among them. They're clearly on the covenant path doing that. You have another super interesting one with the brother of Jared. Now you remember the brother of Jared. I'm making some inferences here, but stay with me. He gets 16 stones. He's going to take those stones that he's made or that he's got out of the mountain and he's going to go up Mount Shelim. Now Mount Shelam is super interesting because if you take the, the vowels away, it's S, H, L, M. Even the most gringo Hebrew person can know that. Shalom.
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Yeah.
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So he goes up the Mount of Peace. And where does he go? He goes to the top of the mount. And what does he do at the top of the mount? He prays. And then what happens? A hand comes through the veil. Then he's tested and they have a conversation. And once he passes the test, he's then brought through the veil and into the presence of the Lord. I think we're talking temple here. I'm going to throw out something else. How many stones does the high priest have? He's got two on his shoulders, 12 in the breastplate, that's 14. And the urim and thummim, 16 stones. I'm not categorically dogmatically asserting, but I'm saying there's some huge connections here. You've got the brother of Jared, I want to say, as the high priest, going up the Mount of Peace, having a conversation With God at the veil, being tested and then being brought back into the presence of God. If that's not a temple, I don't know what is. That's a temple thing. And that's ancient. That's a brother Jared. You've got Moses going up Mount Sinai repeatedly in a temple thing. And Isaiah is going to later call the temple the Mountain of the Lord. If we don't have an official temple, well, then we're going to go as high as we can. That's super interesting. And then again, going back to Adam and Eve, we know that Adam and Eve are cast out east of Eden. The door of the temple is facing east. Because when I want to go back to the presence of God, I go from east to west. And what does God put at the gate of the garden? Cherubim and a flaming sword. And I always ask, so why does their cherubim and a flaming sword and students say, because they can't come back and partake of the tree of life. I go, because they can't partake of the tree of life. Unprepared cherubim are simply angels. It's a class of angels for them to come back into the presence of the Lord. I go, what could we liken that to? I think let's liken the tree of life to our modern day temple. How do I get back to the temple? Well, I'm going to meet with my bishop, I'm going to meet with my stake president and I got to get by the temple recommend desk person. When I meet with my bishop, he's going to ask me certain questions. Do you have faith in and a testimony of God, the eternal Father, his Son, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost? The key word is yes. Let's say it's no. I'm working on that. It's not to cast you out, it's to be prepared. We're going to work together until you say yes. Once I answer the keywords, then I have a sign. What's the sign? It's a properly endorsed, honestly obtained temple recommend. Then I go to the temple and I'm able to enter. That was me entering into the temple by the temple recommend desk person.
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C
That was really, I mean, I thought we were there.
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Thank you. Then you go in and what have I done? What I've done is I've passed the angels who are set there giving them the keywords, the signs and tokens so that I can go back into the presence of God. This idea of Adam and Eve cast eastward in Eden and then they have to go west. Then you think about, interestingly, where is the restoration? The restoration takes place in New York. Where do the saints move? They move west, going back into the presence of God. We're coming back into his arena, his area. John, when you were asking me, I would be very surprised if the tabernacle is the first temple worship. We know from ancient ruins all over that temples were a thing going on. We don't have a huge scriptural record of temples as formally as we do in Exodus 25:30 and 35:40, in Leviticus 1:8 and then Leviticus 16:17. But I think we can make some strong connections. That would be my answer. And then of course, we know that the Nephites had a temple. 2 Nephi 5 they build a temple.
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B
Love that. So if they had an altar, they had a temple.
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A
Yeah. I think the altar is pointing them and giving us evidence that there's some kind of temple worship happening. Of course, Adam and Eve have an altar instantly, like immediately after they leave the garden.
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C
The Lord says, I will put cherubim and a sword. I'm going to approach that. It seems almost I'm going to throw this idea out there that I'm going to approach this moment and either I'm going to get justice or mercy, depending if I've kept my covenants, if I get mercy, I interact with the angel. If I don't want mercy and I'm like, no thanks, angel, then I'm going
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A
to get the sword, the cherubim and the flaming sword. Is this, this is how I look at it. You're going to go to your bishop, you're going to go to your stake president, and you're going to get by the temple recommend desk person. They're the cherubim, but the flaming sword, in my view, is the Holy Ghost. You can lie to your bishop, you can lie to the stake president, you can get a not honestly obtain temple recommend, but you can never lie to the Holy Ghost. The flaming sword will always reveal to the marrow dividing asunder of the bone to the marrow who you really are. Somebody who's trying to game it, somebody who's trying to get by it. Can you lie to your bishop? Of course. But the flaming sword, you can't get by. And that's how I look at that. That I think is the way we should interpret that, at least at this present moment.
- [22:43]
B
What I love about Ross just did was showing us, look, if you know the story of the brother of Jared, there's a temple situation going on here. And when you start looking for him. You started seeing them a lot more. When Jesus says to the 12, wait here. And then he takes three and goes over here, and then says, now you three wait here, and I'm going over here. You see this progression of space?
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C
And how about 3rd Nephi 11, come up to me one by one and thrust your hand into my side.
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A
What about the feeding of the five thousand? Jesus goes to the Father, then Jesus gives to the 12, then the 12 give to the multitude. I always like to say, if you're in the multitude, where did you get your bread? Because I've had people go, I only go to Jesus. I don't need any mediators between me. I don't need apostles. I go, really? If you were there when Jesus fed you, who gave you the bread? Oh, Jesus did. No, he didn't. You got your bread from one of the 12. That's where you got your bread. Don't ever forget that. You got your bread from an authorized servant. Period. End of story. They got their bread from Jesus. That's a temple pattern. Okay, we're off on a track here.
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C
Let's keep going.
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B
At first, an altar stays where it is, but now they're going to make this journey to the promised land. So the Lord allows them to take the temple with them.
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We're going to get a portable temple.
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C
Let me ask you, when I read this and the Come follow me manual is right. These are long passages. A lot of this is exact. Lord, I want this. I want it this long. I want it made with this color. Can you speak to some of that?
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A
I want to speak to that, but I want to get us there. I want to make sure we understand that the Plan A is a kingdom of priests and priestesses, kings and queens. Then we worship a calf, and he's going to take away the ordinances of the Melchizedek priesthood and give a lower law. He's not abandoning his people. He's going to allow for repentance, but he's giving them that section 84 of the doctrine and Covenants. And you guys know this, starting in section 19. And this greater priesthood, the Melchizedek priesthood, administereth the Gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the Kingdom. Harold B. Lee and Elder David A. Bednar both said that the mysteries of the Kingdom are those things which can only be known by the Holy Ghost. Now think about that. A lot of people think, oh, man. Hank and John and Ross, when they're together, they talk about the mysteries of the Kingdom. Well, faith in Jesus Christ is something that has to be known by the power of the Holy Ghost. That's a mystery for the world. Repentance has to be known by the Holy Ghost. A mystery for the world. The restoration, the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. You could go meet the First Presidency and go, those are very wise older men. Okay, you're not seeing clearly because you need to know that those three men, Dallin H. Oaks, Henry B. Eyring and D. Todd Christofferson, are God's holy prophets. That's Peter, James and John. You know that by the power of the Holy Ghost, the Melchizedek priesthood holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God. Have you guys ever been reading the Old Testament, Thought these people, I don't know if they get God. That's true. Because generally it's being run in Aaronic priesthood, not Melchizedek. Now, prophet Joseph Smith said all prophets hold the Melchizedek priesthood, meaning the prophets have the key to the knowledge of God. But the organization and ministration in the Old Testament generally is Aaronic priesthood. Hence, I'm trying to make this big point here that sometimes when we read the Old Testament, it seems a little abstract, removed from what we know. That's because they don't have the key to the knowledge of God. Then it says, therefore in the ordinances thereof, that is verse 20, the ordinances of the Melchizedek priesthood, the power of godliness is manifest without the ordinances thereof. Ordinances of the Melchizedek priesthood, temple ordinances and the authority of the priesthood. Those two things. The power of godliness is not manifest in the flesh. For without this, no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live. Then this. Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God. But verse 24, they hardened their hearts, could not endure his presence. Therefore the Lord in his wrath for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness. Or another way to say that, swore that the fullness of the Gospel and the fullness of the ordinances of the Melchizedek priesthood would be removed. Therefore he took Moses Melchizedek priesthood out of their midst and the holy priesthood also. That's by way of introduction. I think it's a legitimate question to say, wait a minute, why did they get the law of Moses? Why didn't they have the temple the way we have the temple. And I think Exodus 32 and 34, which is again the worshiping of the golden calf while Moses is up on the mount, becomes. I even call it the second fall. Like in some respects, God has a plan for his people. They decide not to do it. This is the result. But he's still going to be merciful. We're going to have this temple and it's going to be a shadow, Paul says, and it's going to be a foreshadowing and a type of the true temple and of things to come. Then the second question I think somebody should ask is, wait, there's 12 tribes. He wanted a kingdom of priests, but only Levites get to actually officiate in the temple. Why now? We don't have a specific answer, like, I can't show you a passage, but I'm going to make this argument. When Moses comes down from the mount, the people are actually doing riotous things and worshiping the calf. There's all the consequences. Moses says, who's on the Lord's side? Who? That hymn we have, you remember who gathers to Moses? The Levites do. All the Levites do. It seems like the Levites are the first to quick. By the way, Moses is from the tribe of Levi. Who's on the Lord's side, Who? All the Levites come to him and they say, okay, we're ready. What do we got to do? Then God honors that, grants them that privilege. But the rest of the tribes, they don't get the opportunity to officiate in the temple. They can't carry the items. They can't set up the items. They can't do anything inside the temple. Only the tribe of Lefi. And then some more specific narrowing with respect to the sons of Aaron. Here's how I do it in class, I'll say, imagine you have the provost, city center temple, and God asks us to build it. And then basically says, John Hank Ross, keep the lights on and keep it clean. That's what you're going to do. And you guys can look at it and you can understand the symbolism. And most of our worship is going to be done in the outer court. That is in church. In terms of the temple, it's there, but not a lot's gonna be going on Yom Kippur. We're gonna talk about that. There is something that's gonna happen in the temple, but mostly it's the outer court, not the inner court. Except for we're gonna light the menorah. We're gonna put the fresh bread on the table, we're gonna keep the incense going, and we're gonna make sure that the Holy of Holies is separate and organized. Then on one day of the year, someone can go in. That's it. Nothing else.
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B
The mysteries of the kingdom are defined as things known by the Holy Ghost. Some people think that is only temple stuff, but no, this is the very basic first principles doctrine of Christ are things known by the Holy Ghost. And it would include the temple as well, but it would start with the very basic stuff.
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A
Oh, and I love that concept. For me as a convert, Jesus and his role and his divinity, that was a mystery to me then when I knew by the power of the Holy Ghost, that's now revealed to me. But it requires the Holy Ghost. I so appreciate it. President Harold B. Lee, then Elder David A. Bednar. I have the two witnesses of that idea that the mysteries of God are those things that can only be known by the power of the Holy Ghost. Super powerful.
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C
And it seems to me, Ross and John, that in the Book of Mormon at least the Holy Ghost and the power of the atonement of Jesus Christ are a package deal as well. Unless they yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, put off the natural man and become a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord. Isn't Mosiah 5 the same thing? The Spirit has wrought a mighty change in us.
- [31:19]
A
Right? I love that the Book of Mormon's main purpose is to testify of Jesus Christ. So there's some historical details we don't get, but they had a temple and exactly what's going on in the temple? They're keeping the law of Moses, but there seems to be other things going on again, but we just don't fully know. Okay, now with the tribe of Levi, I want to talk about the clothing of the High Priest. Because what we're talking about, every single thing we're going to putting these puzzle pieces together to help us understand what's going to happen and what it's teaching us about the Savior and his plan. The High priest has a very particular outfit. This is all in Exodus 28. The high priest has on some very particular things that I love. I alluded to it earlier with the brother of Jared on both shoulders, he's got onyx stones and engraven in each onyx stone are the six names of the house of Israel in one and the six names of the house of Israel another. Then over his heart is the breastplate with 12 different kinds of Stones. And each stone represents a house of Israel. Then inside the pouch of the breastplate is the urim and thummim, meaning or urim ve'tumim, representing lights and perfections. And I want to say that that high pries with the light of Jesus Christ and the perfection of Jesus Christ can carry us on his shoulders and in his heart back into the presence of God. I don't know about you guys. I love that image. We're over his heart. We're on his shoulders. How does he do it? How do we get back in the presence of God? Because of Jesus Christ is the light of the world. And because Jesus Christ is perfect. He is the way, the truth, and the life. On his forehead, he's got holiness to the Lord. He's wearing that cap. Everything is connected and every color. Hank, you brought up all the details. Everything in the high priest's outfit is detailed revelation about what needs to be there. Teaching us how to get back into the presence of God. And he goes barefoot. Sacred. Put off thy shoes from off thy feet. He's got a pomegranate and a bell on the hem of his tunic. Isn't that interesting? I love to ask students, what's going on? Why does he have a pomegranate and a bell? Then I have him, like, look up, what is a pomegranate known for? Seeds.
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C
Seeds? Yeah.
- [33:43]
A
Fertility, eternal life. This is the Abrahamic promise coming back. How does it come back? How do we get seed? Through the priesthood, through Jesus Christ. Going back into the presence of God. We're going to have seed. What's the bell? Everything we do, God has to know we're gonna be known. God sees everything. He hears everything. Everything on there is so powerful. It's so good. That's helping us understand now. I love the idea that there's a counterfeit for everything God does. Satan creates a counterfeit. In Revelation 17, there is this woman who's on a beast. I'm gonna read one verse. It says, upon her forehead was a name written. Remember what's on the forehead of the high priest? Holiness to the Lord. Here's what's on her forehead. Mystery. Babylon the great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth. And I was like, what do you guys make of that? And they're like, it's so weird. It's so, like, blurry. I was like, exactly. It's just all over the place.
- [34:46]
C
Jumbled.
- [34:47]
A
Yeah, it's jumbled. That's a great word for it. It's Just jumbled. Holiness to the Lord, focused. I know what my intention is. I know what my mission is. I know what my purpose is. This has mystery. Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth. Wow. I don't want anything to do with that. I've had a young lady raise her hand and go, why is it a woman? Like, why is a woman the counterfeit for the high priest? I actually say this. The woman is the counterfeit for the church because a woman is the symbol of the church. This is a fake church. This particular woman in Revelation 17, although I'm using it to kind of contrast with the high priest. Get up. This woman is the counterfeit of the church because the woman of the church is trying to make herself ready to meet the bridegroom. That's what's going on here. I don't want anybody listening being offended by this idea that somehow it's denigrating women. No, it's not denigrating women. It's just a counterfeit for the woman who represents the church.
- [35:52]
B
Because Jehovah is like the bridegroom and the church, or the people are the bride.
- [35:57]
A
The church is the bride. Church is a woman. Now, super fun. What do we do to work in the temple? How do we get to officiate in the temple? How do we get to go there? Think about the process of Aaron and his sons. Number one. They're called Exodus 28. One, no man that taketh this honor on himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. Hebrews chapter 5, verse 4. They are then washed. Exodus 29, verse 4. They are then clothed. This is both in Exodus 28 and Exodus 29. They are then anointed. Exodus 29. They then have to make a sacrifice. Isn't that interesting? Think about your own calling. Think about your own preparation. To serve the Lord. Called washed, anointed, clothed. And you have to make a sacrifice. There's a sin offering, a burnt offering, a consecration offering, and then this wave offering where they get to eat part of it. Let me give a brief explanation. There could be way more here. But I don't want to get lost in the weeds too much in this. Clearly, I've made mistakes. So I make a sin offering. It's a whole offering, meaning it's going to be burnt up. It's going to be making atonement for me. I'm repenting. Then I make a burnt offering, which is called the Olah offering. And it 100% goes up to God. Now I'M committed. I've repented. I'm committed. And then the consecration offering is interesting because I take the blood and I put it on my right ear and I take the blood and I put it on my right thumb. And I take the blood and I put it on my right toe. That is so fun. I'm going to hear the word of the Lord. I'm going to be making covenants and doing the work of God. And my feet are in the direction of God with Jesus Christ. The blood, the blood, the blood. That's the consecration. Then we do this wave offering where you literally lift it up to God, wave it to him, offer part of it, but then you get to eat part of it. Think about it. I've repented of my sins. I'm committed wholly to God. I am now hearing his word, working in his work and moving in the right direction. And now, peace. We're going to eat together. We're going to be at one. We're going to now be again at one mint. That's the whole idea. This is the concept of the sacrifice. Now, I want to make one other concept as it relates to Latter Day Saints, and I want to say this correctly. The Church puts out what the covenants of the temple are. Law of obedience, law of sacrifice, law of the Gospel, law of chastity, law of consecration. I was thinking about the law of sacrifice. In my mind. I thought it was saying, if you sin, we're going to give you a savior and the law of sacrifice. But that's not what it says. It says, if you sin, we're going to give you the law of sacrifice and provide a savior for you. The order matters. Jesus Christ is the most powerful source for us in mortality and for eternity. How do I access his power if I sin? I'm going to give you the law of sacrifice and provide a Savior. And what I'm suggesting is that to fully access the power of Jesus Christ in our lives, we're going to have to make a sacrifice. Sometimes I ask young people that come to me with some particular situation they're dealing with. And I'll say, I'd like to invite you to pray to find out what you need to sacrifice to fully access the Savior's atonement. And they'll be like, well, Bishop, why don't you tell me? I'm not going to tell you because I don't know. I want to invite you to do that because a broken heart and a contrite spirit is necessary. But then it's every other sacrifice God requires of us individually. Somebody might be dealing with something and they have to make a sacrifice, but it has to be between them and the Lord. When they do, my witness and my experience is they will then have access to the power of Jesus Christ. And I love that order. I'm being prepared to serve. Think about when you went on a mission, you got called by a prophet. You then were washed, anointed, clothed. But you had to make a sacrifice, too. You had to give stuff up to serve the Lord. Then Jesus Christ is the ultimate. Prepared from the foundation of the world. Washed via baptism, anointed of the Holy Ghost, Acts 10:38. Clothed with the power of the Father to fulfill the plan of the Father chosen to make the sacrifice. Because he's the sacrifice. He's asking us to go exactly through what he did. He's the perfect pattern.
- [40:42]
B
Love it.
- [40:43]
C
That's fantastic.
- [40:45]
B
Earlier we were talking about the sacred space. Now you're showing us it's not just that. Here's a really nice quiet place. This is how we get back to God. That's the whole reason what you just
- [40:58]
A
said, John, is what then transcends the profane world. Because that is meaningful. That is what gives life meaning. That's what satisfies our souls. That's what gives it the meat of life. Spinning in the other areas can be fun and we have to do certain things, but this is the sacred space, the sacred time, the sacred clothing, the sacred behavior. That's what does it. Anybody who's been involved in God's work knows what I'm saying is true. Because when you're fully yoked with God and doing his work, man, it's like nothing better. Now, in Leviticus 16, there is the Day of Atonement. In Hebrew, Yom Kippur, it's in the fall, the tenth day of the seventh month, which is the Tishri. It's usually in September, late October. It's almost always in October. On the day of atonement. That's the day that the high priest could actually enter into the holy of Holies, where the Ark of the Covenant is. He could go into that holy space one time in the year. That would be on the 10th day of the seventh month. Then, of course, representing until Christ comes, we don't have full access into the holy of Holies, but we will. That's pretty much as far as I wanted to get into with the sacrifices. Unless you have other specific questions, I
- [42:22]
B
just kind of want to review. The sin offering is all consumed. I can kind of hear a symbol in there because we want the sinful part of us to be gone. The burnt offering. Same thing. The consecration offering. Tell me again where there's blood on
- [42:40]
A
the ear, blood on the right thumb and then blood on the big right toe.
- [42:46]
B
And that is you're going to hear
- [42:49]
A
hear the word of the Lord. I'm going to act and make covenants with God and I'm going to walk in the path of Jesus Christ. I want to say one thing about the olah or the burnt offering. That's a pre mosaic. That is the offering that Adam would have made. That's the offering Noah would have made. Then it gets incorporated into the law of Moses. But they would have been familiar with the burnt offering, no question.
- [43:17]
B
Then the wave offering. I love what you said. We're going to eat part of that. But that could be a symbol. The fellowship is we're eating together.
- [43:28]
A
We're eating together. And I love the idea they literally would lift it up. Lord, it is yours. But God is granting us a part of it. We're at one now. So I've repented of my sins committed to God, walking in his paths. We are at one when Isaiah receives his call.
- [43:50]
B
In Isaiah 6, the angel takes a coal and touches Isaiah's mouth. Do we know which offering that was?
- [44:01]
A
That's a great question, but I don't think he's taking the elements of the offering. He's taking the fire from the altar. It says he took a coal. He's taking the fire from the altar. The fire from the altar and the coals thereof are the things that are actually, if you will, sanctifying the offerings, cleansing the offerings. So in some respects, it's the coal, the fire, that represents the power of Jesus Christ via the Holy Ghost. He says, whom shall I send? And remember, Isaiah says, woe is me, for I'm unclean, for I dwell amidst unclean people.
- [44:37]
C
I have unclean lips.
- [44:39]
A
I have unclean lips. I am undone. I am. I can't do this. Then the angel, the authorized messenger, goes with the tongs, gets the coal. We don't know John, which particular offering, because he never specifies. He just gets the coal, places it on his lips, then he's cleansed. And now he echoes Jesus Christ. Here am I. Send me. I like to say with Isaiah 6 that one way to look at it is the sacrament. I go through my week. I am a man of unclean lips. I'm tainted by the world and I go and I think, I can't do it. Then an authorized messenger of God A deacon generally will take off the altar, sacrament table, the bread and the water, and do essentially what? Place it on my lips. And now I can say, here am I. Send me. This idea is all hearkening back to ordinances, covenants, and the power of God manifest.
- [45:43]
B
Beautiful.
- [45:44]
C
I remember my friend Steve Rose said, and deacons have the key to the ministration of angels. And there he is in Isaiah 6. A couple of years ago, Dan Belknap came, friend of all of ours, and he helped me quite a bit. Of the three of us, I will readily admit, I struggle to live the gospel. You two don't. I get it. He changed sacrifice for me. He said the ancients did not necessarily see their sacrifices as giving something up, but making something holy. I'm going to go to the temple. I'm not giving up my time.
- [46:24]
B
I'm.
- [46:24]
C
I'm making that time holy. I'm going to pay my tithing. I'm not giving up this money. I'm making it holy. I'm going to fast. I'm not giving up food. I'm making my experience holy. It really impacted the way I saw sacrifice.
- [46:42]
A
And I also think it's interesting because in the text, as you get close to the temple, you become holy. The closer you are to holiness, it impacts you. It starts to imbue you with holiness. When I do tithing settlement, I tell the kids in my ward, you don't have to pay tithing, you get to pay tithing. Let's change our language. We get to be part of God's work. I love that by brother Dan Belknap. I think that's perfect. I think it's wonderful. In some terms of repentance, some people are, you know, do I have to give this up? Sometimes we have to speak in the language of giving things up, but I think we have to lead the language of giving things up to being made holy. It connects back with how I introduced this whole idea of the sacred and the profane. We have to live in this transcendence with a vertical connection to God. As we do that, then the holiness starts to permeate who we are, and that's just who we become.
- [47:44]
B
It's like you're setting apart your money for something sacred.
- [47:47]
A
That's right.
- [47:48]
C
Is it section 25. Lay aside the things of this world and seek for the things of a better mat's.
- [47:56]
B
The very thing you began with Ross was. It's not just all this flat plane. There's some things and there's some things that are better. There's a sacred space, sacred clothes, sacred things that we do with time, with money.
- [48:10]
A
When you have scripture time, we all know that scripture time isn't all of us sitting around in our suit coats talking profundities. Our kids are hanging over the ends of our couches and making obscene noises and doing other things. Part of what's being taught in connection, Hank, with what you were saying about what Dan was saying is what we're doing even in our homes, we're saying, this is a transcendent time. We're going to make this time a little different right now. We're going to be in the word of God. It might be five minutes, it might be 50 minutes. I've had some amazing experiences where my children, some of them been great, some of them been not so great, but where they start asking questions. That little time, it's not because dad is forcing them to be there. They're just into it. That's a sacred memory that takes the uniform space and created a transcendent moment. If we never allow for that kind of opportunity, we're actually engaging too much in the profane. We're not recognizing opportunities for sacred space. I think that we're missing out on that, and that helps us to become holy. I also want to say this. Somebody reads the New Old Testament, and like you said, Hank, there's lots of details here. And he's telling how many loops they want here and what kind of stitch we're going to do here. Only the Levites can go in. And this idea that they're doing it on behalf of the Levites, it's not for them. They're serving everyone. The idea of President Nelson, where no work is so universally inclusive, and I had an experience where I was asked to give a tour to a group of people around the Los Angeles temple. It was great. I mean, the people were super good. It was a long tour and I was going around the temple and we went to the different grounds. And then there was one woman in the tour group who wasn't super thrilled with it. She was polite, but a little antagonistic. And we got kind of the steps of the LA Temple. If you've ever been to the LA Temple, there's this huge view. People were going in and out of the temple, and she said really loud, I would never believe in a God who wouldn't let me in his house. And I said, oh. The rest of the group was like, yeah. And I was like, oh, no, no. God invites all of you in. She said, oh, can I go in? Right now. I said, no, can't go in right now. She goes, well, then I would never believe in that God. And I said, well, would you mind if I asked you a question? She goes, sure. And I said, do you let people smoke in your house? And she goes, no, I do not let people smoke in my house. And I said, that's because it's your house. You get to decide the rules of your house. And she goes, yeah. And I said, to the core of our being, we believe this is God's house. He sets the terms and conditions, and if you'll keep the terms and conditions, you're all invited into his house. And the rest of the group were like, right on. And she was like, right. She was not happy with me. Sometimes we talk, we use this phrase in the church, you got to be worthy to enter the Lord's house. I totally get that. I really actually have no fundamental problem with it. But I think the language can be a bit off putting. I like to say every single person is invited into God's house if they'll keep the terms and conditions he set universally inclusive. No one's left out. No one. The only person who's left out is the person who doesn't want to go in. It's their choice. By the way, the Old Testament tabernacle, a little different in terms of the way I'm saying this now, because the Levites and the seed of Aaron, they're doing it on our behalf. And it was a little more narrowly focused, but still universally inclusive. Anybody could have brought an offering had they done the right offering. My other story is, I gave this talk at Ensign College. I know, Hank, you've spoken there recently. It was the same tour. There was a woman who was a Holocaust survivor in the tour. She was older woman, didn't say a word the whole time. We got to the bus and I was shaking their hands and she pulled me aside. I'm off the bus. Everyone's getting in the bus. And she says to me and kind of has an accent. I didn't know where she was exactly from, but she says, I've been in dark places. I've been in dark places. And then she kind of like looked at the temple and like kind of shifted my gaze towards the temple. And she goes, but this is a place of light. And with that, she got on the bus. I was like, wow, beautiful. She knew it. She could feel it. She knew the contrast. She knew that there was life and creation. She'd been in places of destruction and darkness, and she Knew without even having to go in, just from feeling the spirit of the place, having the tour, that that was a place of light. I love to share that, because that is what the temple is. It's a place of light, It's a place of creation. It's a place of looking up.
- [53:09]
C
That is great.
- [53:10]
B
I've heard this before. Some say yes, some say no. Can we look at the Tower of Babel as a counterfeit temple, as this is how you get back to God on our own terms? That was the problem.
- [53:23]
A
Yeah. You said some say yes, some say no. Those that say no. I don't know what I mean. I think clearly. And whether it's a counterfeit, exactly in terms of ordinances and all those kind of things, clearly it's a human construction to get back to God. So, yes, I think it's a counterfeit temple, 100%. Which, by the way, answers your earlier question. Because if they're building a counterfeit temple, then that seems to give strong evidence that there were temples. Remember, your first question was, do we have any evidence that there were temples before? Well, that they're building the Tower of Abel is probably evidence that there were.
- [53:56]
B
And it was. We'll get the mighty hunter Nimrod on our terms. We're going to force our way in.
- [54:02]
A
That's right.
- [54:03]
B
Which won't work.
- [54:04]
A
Yeah, super weird. And then the Lord's like, okay, I'm going to confound everyone's language. We're done. We're going to try something here.
- [54:12]
B
And that's why I'm sending my daughter to the mtc. Because of the Tower of Babel.
- [54:16]
A
That's exactly right. Then that's the context for the brother of Jared story eventually, which I kind of alluded to. It's a temple image that springs right from Genesis, chapter 11.
- [54:27]
C
He's a Gentile.
- [54:29]
A
Let's talk about the mobile temple. You've brought up the idea of the portable temple, and it's made, as you've said, Hank, according to specific. Highlighting the word specific, instructions by revelation from the Lord. Quote, he says to Moses, and look, that thou make them after their pattern, which was showed thee in the mount. Exodus 25:40. He got revelation because he probably didn't even imagine how it was going to look. He's not only told the specifics, he's shown the specifics. Then the prophet Joseph says, look, the main object of the gathering is to build unto the Lord a house. Why? To teach the people the way of salvation. Teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith, page 308. We're going to build a house. We're going to gather Israel. And what are we going to do? We're going to build a temple. So what do we do at the beginning of this dispensation boom? Kirtland temple, Nauvoo temple. What do we ask people? We ask people worldwide who are getting baptized in England or getting baptized in some other places. You've got to gather to this place. Well, why? Why do we have to gather here? Because we're building a temple. You got to be around the temple. Now we say, don't do that. Why? Because if you live in Oslo, Norway, you have a temple. If you live in Dubai now you have a temple. And if you live in Tokyo, you have a temple. Right? The idea is these temples are starting to dot the earth. The kings and priests and all these people are going to do. Follow me on this. What the high priests do. Because Isaiah saw the day when he said, they shall be upon our shoulders and our hearts as we bring them back into the presence of God. Think about the high priest. What does a woman or a man do when we go to the temple? Once we've gone through ourselves? We're essentially putting them on our shoulders, putting them next to our hearts, and we're dressed like the high priest as we bring them back into the presence of God, fulfilling all of these prophecies as they occur, so that we are taught the way of salvation. Now you brought up something, John, earlier. Where's the temple? In the center. I love that it's in the center. Downtown is the temple. Downtown in a city is where you merchandise. Downtown is the financial center. It's the business district. Downtown in God's city. House of the Lord. Isn't that cool? Then radiating degrees of holiness out. What surrounds the temple? What surrounds the temple are the Levites. By revelation, they encircle the temple. Who's at the gate? Moses and Aaron. They're right there. I'm being taught if I want to go back to the presence of God, I'm going to go through the priesthood. I got to go through God's authorization. I got to do it that way. What happens in the next concentric circle? Out. All the tribes of Israel are laid out by revelation. Every tribe is laid by Revelation. Three on the south, three on the west, three on the north, three on the east. The twelve tribes are laid out. The Levites are encircling it. It's actually quite beautiful, right? Just quite beautiful. And by the way, where's business done? Business is done outside of that that's where we do the profane things. The sacred is in the center of the temple. That excites me. I just think that's powerful. Then Joseph lays out the plat map of what Zion should look like and what's at the center. It's the temple complex. And I love when Brigham gets to Salt Lake and Brigham's going to number the streets. So you were always oriented to where you are in relation to the temple. So if I'm at 100 East, 600 south, okay, I'm one block east, and I'm six blocks south of the temple. By the way, we could insert Jesus Christ for the temple. Where am I in relation to the Lord Jesus Christ? How am I getting my bearings to the Lord Jesus Christ? This is amazing to me, Ross.
- [58:22]
B
I'm glad you mentioned Brigham Young. I remember years ago, the church made a movie called the Mountain of the Lord. And here, like you said, build Kirtland, get kicked out, tried to build far west, get kicked out, build Nauvoo, get kicked out. Brigham Young, first day in the valley, puts his cane down and says, here we build the temple of our God. I always like to imitate that guy. It's like Job. One part of the restoration that I think is so cool is this emphasis on temples, because that was so huge in the whole Bible. Here it was again. And you mentioned all these different places. When I was on a mission in the Philippines, they had broken ground and were underway on one temple in Manila. And now I think there's 13, you know, planned and underway in the Philippines. So we're gathering to temples. Can you talk more about what gathering?
- [59:18]
A
Really?
- [59:18]
B
It doesn't mean to Salt Lake City anymore.
- [59:21]
A
No. The Lord is allowing again, guiding his prophets, that temples are being built worldwide. They're trying to make them more accessible to the people. Also, family history is accelerating at an exponential rate in terms of our capacity, our ability to find our genealogies, to find people. I always like to say in Jacob 5, three times the Lord says, what more could I have done for my vineyard? This is a case where in terms of ordinances ready, which is a free app. Right. We have the church's genealogical app, which is free. You hit ordinances ready, and you're going to find a relative. You're going to be able to take that person's name to the temple and do the work in God's holy house. And this is a worldwide thing now, obviously, it's expanded. And in the time of the tabernacle, in the wilderness, we didn't have that, the tabernacle itself. And if you study the tabernacle, you will learn about the temple, our temple. It's bifurcated so that you have it divided. And it's not technically divided, but if you could draw a line, you have the outer court, and the outer court has the altar, the sacrificial altar and the laver, which was kind of like you might call it, it's not a baptismal font, but they could ritually wash. Now, you also had the gate of the temple, and the gate to enter into the outer court was 20 cubits wide. I want us to hold that idea. You're going from outside the temple, profane space into sacred space. And you're going to go into this gate. That's 20 cubits. The first thing you're going to see when you go in is the altar of sacrifice. Then between the altar of sacrifice, next is going to be this laver where you're going to wash. Then there will be the temple property in the temple proper. The gate will be 10 cubits. If you want to go inside the temple, it's 10 wide. That will take you into the holy place. The holy place is roughly equivalent to our terrestrial room. If we look at the outer court as the telestial room, because you can see into it, visitors welcome, that kind of stuff's going on. Then you're going to go into the holy place, which is veiled, to get into the outer court, 20 cubits. To get into the temple proper, 10 cubits. Now, what's inside the holy place? Well, there's three pieces of furniture in there. There's going to be a menorah, which is a light stand. It's supposed to be always lit. Then you have a table of showbread upon which are 12 loaves of bread. Then you have, right before the veil, going into the next room, which is the holy of holies, you have an incense altar. The incense has to be being constantly lit. That would roughly correspond to our terrestrial room or the temple itself. And then the veil then divides between the holy place and the holy of holies, that is only one cubit. Or in other words, one by one, I come into the church 20 cubits. My baptismal interview. I'm trying hard. I want to keep the commandments. I love what the missionaries have taught me. But I do have to have a baptismal interview. So I come into the church, I'm making sacrifice. I'm washed, I'm in the outer court. But now I want to go into the temple. It went from 20 cubits now to 10 cubits. Temple recommend questions. They're great, but I'm going to go into the temple itself. But now I want to enter into the Holy of Holies, roughly corresponding to our celestial room. What's in the Holy of Holies? The Ark of the Covenant. And the Ark of the Covenant is a box with. Overlaid with gold. And on top of the box, there's the mercy seat. All right, John, for 25 points, what him or hymns, Use the word mercy seat.
- [63:21]
B
I stand all amazed Boom. I will praise and adore at his mercy seat.
- [63:26]
A
Mercy seat. Okay, that's one Come Ye Disconsolate. Hymn number 115. And it was quoted in General Conference by Quentin L. Cook when he said, earth has no sorrow that heaven cannot heal.
- [63:40]
B
Beautiful.
- [63:40]
A
Yeah, that's in Come Ye Disconsolate. So the mercy seat, the idea is we've got the box which is the Ark of the Covenant. On top of it, we got the mercy seat. The mercy seat has, like, a crown around it. Then there's two cherubim that are facing each other, covering it with wings. This idea of veiling the Lord, that becomes the throne of God. That becomes the idea where he says in Exodus 25:22, there I will meet with thee. This is now going back to how I started the ultimate transcendence, to meet with God, the ultimate idea, to be one with him, to be back with him, to be in his presence. We're going to be there. What's inside this body box? Well, according to Hebrews, chapter nine, verse four, there's three things in the box. There's manna, There's Aaron's rod that budded, that gave life. And then there's the tablets upon which are written the Ten Commandments, and probably other things as well. They're all inside that ark. Each one of those things is a type of Christ. Each one of those things in there, manna, the bread of heaven. I am the bread of life, the rod that budded. The priesthood gives life. The priesthood allows us to have eternal relationships. Then, of course, the commandments of God are his ways for us to show our faith, to come back into the presence of God. So I love this concept of we go from telestial 20 cubits, come into the kingdom of God, 10 cubits, we narrow the way. It's a little more difficult. The standards are a little higher. Go into the terrestrial room. Then one by one, we go through the veil. 2nd Nephi 9:41. The keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel and he employeth no servant there. Now I can be like you said earlier, I think, Hank, you were talking. The veil is Jesus Christ. We have a day on Judgment. Everyone freaks out about Judgment Day. Like, if you talk about Judgment Day, people, they don't like that subject. They're like Sebastian before King Triton. Right? You know, and that was a Disney reference right there.
- [65:53]
C
I caught it. I caught it.
- [65:55]
A
Yeah, they don't like it. But then I say, wait, when you go to the temple, are you nervous when you get to the veil? No. I go, why? Well, we're prepared and there's always somebody to help us. Awesome. You're being taught about the judgment. Yeah, yeah. You get prepared through walking the covenant path so that when you come face to face with Jesus Christ, because that's the veil, you're not going to be nervous. Who's going to be with you? Well, an authorized servant of God to help you. It's not to trick you, it's not to try to keep you out. We're going to see, are you prepared. It'll be a joyful experience to be brought back into the presence of God and his son, Jesus Christ. The Holy of Holies roughly corresponds to our celestial room. You have this beautiful process going forward in that whole layout of the temple. Now, I like to ask this. So if we looked at an overview, if we were looking down like an 8 1/2 by 11 piece of paper and we had the diagram, when you look at the temple from an architecturally point of view, there's a bunch of wasted space between the walls that demarcate the outside and the temple proper. I always say, why is there all that wasted space? Like, we're not doing anything with it. No one goes there. And I like to say, there's no contact between the world and God's temple. None. It's a complete separation. There's no contact. Isn't that interesting? I love that. No contact. God is saying, this fallen world, not my world.
- [67:34]
C
Not interested.
- [67:35]
A
I'm not interested in that. Yeah, but I can tell you how to get back. That's what he's saying.
- [67:40]
C
Let's go back to the holy of Holies. Now, in this day that we're studying this year, the Old Testament, one guy goes in the celestial room once a year. And that's a difference in our temple.
- [67:53]
A
Yeah, that's a difference in our temple. Because millions of people go in every day.
- [67:59]
C
Yeah. To the Holy of Holies. Sometimes my students say, no, no, no, wait. The Holy of Holies is a little Room off of like the Salt Lake Temple. I'm like, yes, but the celestial room is the holy of holies, right?
- [68:09]
A
Amen. So when Christ dies, remember, the veil of the temple is rent. Now access, because of Jesus Christ allows us, you and me, the blood of Jesus Christ. We don't need the constant repetition of the sacrifice of blood anymore because Jesus Christ once and for all did that for you and me. And we have full access through him into his holy of holies. So if you're in Kobe, in Tokyo, if you're in Alaska, or if you're in Provo, Utah, Urdaneta, Philippines, we live in an amazing time.
- [68:46]
B
If we were to back out of the holy of holies Den, can you tell us about the symbolism of the incense, the menorah? I think we can all figure that out. 12 loaves of bread, talk about those a little bit.
- [68:59]
A
The incense always burning. The best reference there is Revelation, chapter 5, verse 8. Most people say that that incense is the prayers of the saints. I love to say, what's the one non vicarious thing we do before we get to the veil? What do we do in our temples? We pray. It's the prayers of the saints. And we could even suggest, because it's a worldwide church and because we have worldwide temples that probably 24 hours a day, the prayers of the saints are ascending to God in his holy temple right before the veil. The other interesting thing, John, is the formula for the incense. Exodus, chapter 30. The Lord gives the incense recipe. It's gotta smell a particular way. And I think that's so fascinating because think about John, your mission in the Philippines. There's probably certain smells that could take you back in a second.
- [69:54]
B
In a second? Yeah.
- [69:55]
A
I served in southern Argentina. Ooh, there are certain smells. Man, I am on my mission again. So imagine you're traveling with the children of Israel and God says, man, when you smell this smell, you're in a sacred space. Isn't that cool? And the penalty, by the way, don't make the recipe. Because if you make the recipe, you get cut off from among the people. That has to be specific to the temple. We're not going to counterfeit that recipe. Isn't that cool? I've been trying to think what the analog is in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Haven't figured out what our modern analog is for the smell. Unless it's the new carpet in the churches. I'm not sure that would be. I don't know what that is, but you can imagine in an ancient world where there's lots of false deities all around. Wow. We know when we smell that smell, we are in the presence, holy presence of God. Isn't that neat?
- [70:53]
B
And that will travel with them as far as they go. They'll still have that smell. Yeah, I love that.
- [70:59]
A
Think about now, you're in Galilee and you travel to Jerusalem and you smell that smell. You now know you get that instant olfactory communication with your brain. Boom, we're back in the presence of God. That it had to be just so powerful for them to come back and to smell that smell. Then the loaves of bread. I hope everyone gets that. We're getting a sacrament idea, communion with God, eating in his holy place. Then the menorah, of course, has to be lit continually. Now, there's a practical aspect of this in that the temple proper is covered 100%. Without the menorah, it would be pitch black, the way they've designed it. And the veils and the curtains, it would be very dark. You've got this huge candelabra called menorah, and it's got to be lit 24 7, 365 days a year. Same with the loaves of bread get replaced every week. The incense has to be replaced, whatever the incense replaced. But that also had to be going up 247 as well. Like you said one time into the holy of holies, there's kind of an elaborate process that the high priest went through to get into the holy of holies.
- [72:09]
C
And when the high priest, on every other day of the year, you said he is, he is decked to the nines. He's got the purple robe, he's got jewelry, and that represents Jehovah. So when he walks by, I'm like, my God is amazing.
- [72:23]
A
Wow. But on this day, no, he stripped down linen.
- [72:27]
C
He looks like everybody else.
- [72:29]
A
Then we've got the various sacrifices and the scapegoat and the other goat, and we're doing all that stuff. And he can't get in without the blood for himself. And Paul makes the point in Hebrews. And look, Jesus doesn't need blood for himself. There's no sin for which he needs to expiate. But he's going to go in and once and for all do the atonement for the rest of us, which is so great.
- [72:49]
C
And he's going to look like the rest of us.
- [72:51]
A
We're not going to notice it. They don't notice it.
- [72:54]
C
I had a couple other questions. One, we talked a little bit about Joseph Smith. And what's one of the first things we do. This has got to be unheard of for America. Like, you've got a. Basically a Protestant religion. You got a Bible and a leader, and they got a Book of Mormon, which is kind of weird, but it teaches the same stuff. Then he starts introducing priesthood and sacrament, and that's Catholic, which is not 1800s United States.
- [73:24]
A
No.
- [73:25]
C
And then temples. We're going to build a temple that's not Catholic.
- [73:30]
A
An Abrahamic covenant. Right. Temple robes.
- [73:36]
C
You grow up Jewish, you understand the ancient temple. And then you run into this church, and they're like, oh, yeah, we have a temple. Can you tell me a little bit about that?
- [73:46]
A
Yeah, it was incredible. So they told me about the temple, and I was like, you mean synagogue? Because modern Jews, when they say temple, often equate that with what we would say is like a chapel. You mean synagogue? And they're like, no, the temple is like the ancient temple. Okay, you've got my attention now. Okay, so it's not synagogue. It's different. Well, how do I get in? Well, you gotta be baptized. My first experience in the temple was a lot like your daughter. I ate it up. And when we were leaving, I was like, I don't want to go out. This is incredible. This is all connecting for me. For me, my first experience in the temple before my mission was so resonant with these passages in Exodus and Leviticus, which a lot of people are like, those passages resonate with you? Yeah. I mean, I kept seeing every connection, every connection, every connection, bolstering my testimony of Joseph Smith, bolstering my testimony of the restoration. And, like, who thinks of any of this? What in the world? Like, okay, this is the restoration. This is amazing.
- [74:58]
C
Yeah. Would you think whoever made this up understood Judaism 100% right?
- [75:03]
A
Like, whoever made this up was either fluent in ancient Hebrew and was able to penetrate to the depths. What's happening with the tabernacle or getting revelation?
- [75:13]
C
Another question. In the ancient tabernacle, wouldn't this have smelled like a barbecue? I mean, there's a lot of meat. I think I would have enjoyed that.
- [75:23]
A
Thanks, Hank. That's good. I think there would have been. There's a lot of blood also. They're making allowances for where the blood's gonna go. There's basins, and there's things to be caught. And they have to sanctify the altar. They have to clean the altar. In fact, Jesus says at one point how on the Sabbath, they still make an offering. There's blood on the priests, and they're lighting fire which they technically can't do. I'm sure they streamlined the process. But, yeah, I think it would have been a messy. There would have been distinct smells, no question.
- [75:53]
C
Is there singing going on?
- [75:56]
A
Okay, so in Solomon's Temple. Yes. There's no record of people singing in the Exodus account of the portable temple that John was talking about. When they build Solomon's Temple. Oh, man. We've got singers and trumpeters and all kinds of stuff going on. It's pretty fun.
- [76:14]
C
And the barbecue smell, and I'm thinking.
- [76:16]
A
And the barbecue smell, and you got the music and you got also the incense. Remember, the incense is supposed to create a particular feeling and a particular sense of place. No question.
- [76:27]
C
Little irreverent. But when I walk into a barbecue, a nice barbecue joint, I think I am in the presence of the Lord.
- [76:33]
A
This is good stuff.
- [76:34]
C
That's good for you, Hank.
- [76:36]
A
That's good. Once the tabernacle is set up. So in Exodus 40, the cloud covers it, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle. The cloud and the glory of the Lord. That's the presence of the Holy Ghost. That's the power of God. The same thing happens in God's modern temples today. Have either of you ever been to a dedication of a temple?
- [76:59]
C
I was in the choir sitting right behind President Monson.
- [77:03]
A
Okay, well, there you go.
- [77:04]
C
Ochre Mountain Temple.
- [77:05]
A
Yeah, Ochre Mountain. That's beautiful. My wife and I, for some reason, got invited. I was not in any kind of priesthood leadership capacity. A friend of mine got us tickets to the Redlands Temple dedication. I thought we would be, like, in the Stake center next to the church or next to the temple. They look at our tickets and they're like, oh, pass. I'm thinking, oh, we're going to be cool.
- [77:27]
B
We'll be in the.
- [77:28]
A
This chairs over. Nope, pass. Pass. We're in the celestial room, and it's a small celestial room. There's probably, I want to say 60 people in there. I am just like, oh, my word, honey, we're in the celestial room.
- [77:41]
C
Room.
- [77:41]
A
She's like, oh, this is incredible. In comes President Hinckley with elder Robert D. Hales. We're all kind of in cramped quarters. Here was the experience we had. We're waiting for the thing to start, and it's extremely reverent because we're in this lesser room with the prophet. I'm feeling the spirit before anything even happened. And President Hinckley locked eyes with every single person in the room for about two seconds, like it was intentional. He literally went down the row. And he'd lock eyes with you. And then he'd go and lock eyes with you. And then he'd lock eyes with you. It was incredible. Then we have the dedication. Then, of course, we sing the Spirit of God. I'm not super emotional guy, but sometimes certain I couldn't sing. I couldn't. I was just too emotional. It's too amazing. I look at my wife and she's not singing. And I look at President Hinckley and he's got tears streaming down his cheeks. He's not an emotional guy. By the way, Elder Hales, no one singing, but it was a chorus of a thousand people singing the spirit of God in that room. It was the cloud and the glory of the Lord resting upon his house. It's indelibly imprinted, engraved on my spirit and my heart. As again, Exodus 40, verse 34, the cloud covered it and the glory of the Lord filled the house. That happened to me. I've experienced that. John, you kept talking about how it's a portable tabernacle. How did they know when to move? When the cloud moved, they moved. And I want to say this to anybody listening, sometimes the cloud moves in your life and you move. And it might be hard for you, but whenever you move with the cloud, it'll be sweet. Wherever you go, where the cloud is, it's sweet. And it might be hard. You might be giving up friends, you might be giving up some former thing, you might be giving up a house, you might be giving up something. But if you move with the cloud, it's always going to be sweet because you're where the Lord wants you to be. Sometimes feel like, I don't know why I need to do this, or I don't know why do I need to do this? Or I have to go here. Cloud might be moving, cloud might be moving. That's teaching us as well, God directing his people to accomplish his purposes.
- [80:09]
B
I hear people say, well, the Jews don't have a temple anymore. Do they do sacrifices or what do they do now instead of all this stuff? Because they don't have their temple anymore.
- [80:22]
A
Generally, I would say overwhelmingly, Jews do not do sacrifice. But I think there's an important reason why, to the credit of Jewish people, they don't do sacrifices because they recognize they don't have the authority. I think people need to let it sit. Even when you talk about the third Temple, you know they're going to build the third Temple. One of the big questions among Jews that are interested in this thing is who would officiate in it. One of the biggest issues in the book of Ezra, Nehemiah, is who has authority? We need the genealogy so we can get the pure Levites. That's one of the big problems in Ezra and Nehemiah. Can you imagine? We are thousands of years past Ezra and Nehemiah and they realize, well, how are we going to find the seed of Levi or the seed of Aaron, who's going to officiate in the temple? And I think that's a profound question and a profound insight on their part. And to their credit, they're taking the text seriously because not anybody can officiate in God's temple.
- [81:21]
B
Wow, that's amazing. And I've always just understood they have a post temple period type of worship.
- [81:29]
A
Correct.
- [81:31]
B
In our ward years ago, we had a what is your next step? For some people, their next step was just come and be here with us. For some people, their next step was I need to take some time and pray. For some people, their next step might have been taking the sacrament. For some, it might have been getting a temple recommend. For some it might have been, I have a recommend, but I don't use it enough. I'm listening to all this, hoping anybody out there listening feels how much the Lord wants them in his temple. I felt that all the time when I was a bishop. I want these people in the temple, my temple. And whatever that next step is, I hope you'll think about that and think that the Lord wants you in his temple. The reward you feel just for being there will be life changing. As you've talked about, Ross, how that was life changing for you just to be there. I feel fired up about, I gotta get back to the temple. But whatever your next step is, boy, take it.
- [82:35]
C
When I think of the temple, I think of Isaiah saying, let's go to the house of the Lord. We will learn of his ways, walk in his paths there. We become lowercase S saviors. The atonement is the ultimate vicarious work. I'm going to do something for you that you cannot do for yourself. We do that in the temple. We do something for someone else they cannot do for themselves. We will walk in his path. We will be like him. And then we will beat our swords into plows and our spears into pruning hooks. You both know I had a bit of a rough childhood. And I think I came out of my childhood a bit of a sword, a little adversarial, defensive. And I think the Lord said, come to the temple and I will take that sword. And I'll turn it into a plow. Someone who can feed people spiritually, physically, someone who can feed. I get myself to the temple. So this sword will be a plow, right? To feed others. Love it.
- [83:38]
A
Yeah.
- [83:38]
B
Ross, what you said is the Isaiah phrase of put them upon our shoulders or taking people there to the temple. Hadn't equated that phrase with temple service before, but we get to be part of that.
- [83:53]
A
Ross.
- [83:53]
C
I sometimes even put that little piece of paper in my pocket. I'm like, right there. There it is.
- [83:57]
A
Oh, right over your heart. We're joking about it, but I think there's some truth to what you're saying.
- [84:01]
C
Yeah.
- [84:02]
A
Literally, they're over our hearts as we bring them back into the breath. You want to have a fun experience? Go do from baptisms to ceilings and count how many times we lovingly repeat that person's name.
- [84:16]
B
Yeah.
- [84:16]
A
Some person died and thought, like, I was never famous. I didn't make that much money. I raised a little family. And we're going to go to the temple for that person. And you think how many times we're going to repeat their name with love, with kindness, pointing them to Jesus Christ. Go ahead.
- [84:36]
C
Couldn't we take you to the temple and baptize you for every man who's ever died? And the Lord would say, nope, we're doing this one by one.
- [84:46]
A
Yep.
- [84:46]
C
I love that every person matters.
- [84:49]
A
Every single person. And by the way, every stone mattered on the breastplate. You got a little upset. And everyone does, by the way, Hank, all the details, the stitching, the loops, that's him saying, I care about every single person. It matters. That's part of the message. So it can be trying because you're going, okay. All these things about the temple, part of that message is that's every human being that's ever lived.
- [85:24]
B
I think we could say that's pretty inclusive, couldn't we?
- [85:27]
A
Yeah, we're bringing everybody in. You guys.
- [85:29]
C
That would take like, a thousand years. Like.
- [85:32]
B
Yeah, we might need a millennium in
- [85:34]
A
order to do that. So can I just give this quote? Brigham says, when I think upon this subject, the temple, I want the tongue of Seven Thunders to wake up the people. The feelings we've had in this time we've had together is we've talked about important, powerful ideas. We've talked about things that make a difference. We've talked about transcendence and things that matter. That touches each of us. Touched me. The things you both have said, I hope it's touched people that are listening. But again, Brigham and I want the tongue of seven thunders to wake up the people. That's something else. Go to the house of the Lord and we're going to have holiness and we're going to have sacred space, sacred time, sacred clothing and sacred behavior.
- [86:28]
B
Wow. With that, we'd like to thank Dr. Ross Baron for joining us today on Thoughts to keep in mind. And behold, fear not, Ross is returning.
- [86:40]
C
He will be back. Our next one is called the Historical books of the Old Testament and we're
- [86:46]
A
gonna have fun with that.
- [86:48]
B
Well, everyone, thanks again for joining us on Thoughts to keep in Mind with Ross Barron. We'll see you next time on another episode of Follow Him.
- [86:56]
C
As a thank you to our wonderful listeners, we'd love to gift you the digital version of our book, Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. It offers short, meaningful insights drawn from our past Old Testament episodes. Visit followhim.co. that's followhim.co. to download your free copy today and you'll also find the link to purchase the print edition. Thank you for being part of our Follow him family. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew, David Perry, Lisa Spice, Will Stoughton, Crystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kabwica, Sydney Smith, and Annabelle Sorensen.
- [87:35]
A
Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.
- [87:44]
C
Turn to him.
- [87:46]
A
Follow Him.