Ep. 213. Richard Stier: Driving Continuous Improvement in Food Safety and Sanitation

Summary

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Food Safety Matters Ep. 213 – Richard Stier: Driving Continuous Improvement in Food Safety and Sanitation

Date: March 10, 2026
Guest: Richard (Rick) Stier, Consulting Food Scientist
Host/Interviewer: Adrian Bloom (Food Safety Magazine)

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Episode Overview

This episode features a deep-dive interview with Richard Stier, a consulting food scientist and one of the Food Safety Magazine’s longest-serving editorial advisory board members. Rick is well-known for his “How To” column series, which delivers practical food safety and sanitation guidance for food processing facilities. This conversation explores Rick’s career journey, best practices for facility sanitation and crisis management, the importance of internal audits and plant design, and how to foster a culture of hygiene in food plants. The dialogue is packed with candid insights and actionable advice for food safety professionals seeking continuous improvement.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Rick Stier’s Background and Career Path

[18:38–22:13]

• Rick was influenced early by his mother, a faculty member at Rutgers University specializing in sensory science.
• Cites exposure to other pioneering figures in food science as formative (“I was brainwashed.” – E, 18:58).
• Early consulting experience as a graduate student at UC Davis working on extension projects.
• Longstanding involvement with the Institute of Food Technologists (IFT), serving in various committee and leadership positions over 56 years.
• First industry job at the National Food Processors Association (NFPA), which later became part of GMA, where he gained broad exposure and mentors.

2. Addressing Suboptimal Food Safety Practices in Plants

[23:26–26:00]

• Rick has visited over 700 processing plants; occasionally encounters concerning practices.
• Shares that while audits and consulting can uncover serious lapses, it’s crucial to be diplomatic.
• Notable approach: declining to take product samples from facilities with poor hygiene (“...if it's one of those plants that I don't think is up to snuff, my answer would be no.” – E, 24:12).
• Stresses the core philosophy: develop, document, implement, and maintain programs for continuous improvement. Maintenance and verification are often overlooked.

3. Industry “Rescues” and Memorable Consulting Cases

[26:21–29:49]

• Helped salvage the canned salmon industry after a botulism outbreak in 1982–83 through a salmon control plan and innovative packaging.
• Investigated staph enterotoxin outbreaks in canned mushrooms in China, tracing the problem to pre-processing contamination.

4. Changing Attitudes Toward Food Safety Recommendations

[29:49–32:37]

• Most companies are receptive; some may be reluctant or dismiss risks, as in an anecdote about contaminated raw materials being used despite warnings (birds contaminating materials after a storm).
• Enjoys working with companies focused on continuous improvement and quality—finds it rewarding.

5. Crisis Management for Food Processors

[32:43–36:53]

• COVID-19 highlighted the need for robust crisis management plans.
• Many avoid thinking about worst-case scenarios but Rick urges robust anticipatory programs: “I’m lazy...I want to build good programs...and then just step back and manage them.” – E, 34:08.
• Crisis preparedness is about designing effective, easy-to-manage programs, reviewing them regularly, and maintaining readiness for recalls, disasters, or operational disruptions.

6. Internal Audits: Purpose, Process, and Pitfalls

[36:53–41:36]

• Internal audits (as required by ISO 22000) are vital for continuous improvement.
• Stresses the need for cross-functional auditor training (purchasing, warehouse, distribution, etc.), not just quality or safety staff.
• Audits don’t have to be exhaustive in one go – spreading over months is effective.
• Key is critical, honest evaluation and follow-up: Don’t just check boxes; seek genuine improvement.

7. Leveraging Audit Results for Advancement

[39:37–40:57]

• Results should drive ongoing improvement, not just confirm compliance.
• Warns against companies that accept the status quo (“Those aren't the ones I want to work with...it’s like talking to a wall.” – E, 40:43).

8. Physical Plant as a Foundation for Safety

[41:36–45:10]

• Plant age and design critically affect safety – old facilities need extra maintenance.
• Example: Plants producing acidic foods must coat floors to prevent acid damage, which can harbor pathogens if neglected.
• “Do it right the first time.” – E, 45:16

9. Building and Sustaining a Culture of Hygiene

[45:11–54:22]

• Common failures: insufficient handwashing facilities leading to policy bypass.
• Handwashing infrastructure should be proportional to workforce and conveniently located.
• Advocates for foot- or knee-operated sinks and using educational tools (petri dish demonstrations) to make contamination visible (“One girl's petri dish was so overgrown that they actually called the school nurse...” – E, 50:04).
• Managers must enforce policies and make compliance convenient. Consistent enforcement and incentives (gift cards for the cleanest area) reinforce good hygiene.

10. Education vs. Training

[54:22–56:03]

• Distinguishes educating employees (“...educate a person. And I've always remembered that.” – E, 54:47) from simply training them; the former leads to understanding and ownership.
• Third-party auditors now interview frontline workers – everyone needs to understand and own their role in food safety.

11. Preview: Upcoming Two-Part HACCP Column

[56:03–58:48]

• Rick teases an upcoming comprehensive HACCP series, showing how HACCP is just part of a much larger food safety management system encompassing up to 20–30 detailed procedures per category.
• He built the article from a ground-up consulting project, making it practical for those starting from scratch.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On being “brainwashed” into food science:
  “Food science, I say I have to be. I was brainwashed. My mother was on the food science faculty at Rutgers University, so I was exposed to her work.” (E, 18:58)

• Diplomatic honesty about plant safety:
  “If it's one of those plants that I don't think is up to snuff, my answer would be no. I got to get on a plane, I don't have enough room in my luggage.” (E, 24:12)

• On continuous improvement:
  “People who sit still are going to be passed, you know, the world, the industry is going to pass them by. So you got to keep working to do better.” (E, 25:00)

• On crisis management:
  “I’m lazy. What I want to do and what I encourage people to do is build good programs...and then just step back and manage them.” (E, 34:08)

• On internal audit philosophy:
  “You don't want quality auditing quality and safety, but that means you’ve got to train internal auditors. So that’s an added cost...but it’s a very solid way to make sure you’ve got all your ducks in a row.” (E, 38:06)

• Advice on plant design:
  “Age, I think, is the big enemy of these facilities. But again, a physical plan is a lot of things. It's floors, walls, ceilings, drains, the roof, your filtration systems, the concrete...” (E, 43:06)

• On hand hygiene training:
  “I’m a firm believer in focusing on hand washing as part of the training for people. Use some of the tools that are available, you know, like get some people out of the classroom or the room you're working in. Have them touch petri dishes to show them their hands have bacteria, then have them go wash their hands and do the same thing and repeat it.” (E, 48:55)

• Differentiating education and training:
  “You train your dog, but you educate a person. And I've always remembered that, you know, because education implies that you understand it. Training, it's we do it because we were told to...” (E, 54:47)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Rick Stier’s Background & Career Journey: 18:38–22:13
• Consulting Approach & Facility Practices: 23:26–26:00
• Industry-Wide Interventions: 26:21–29:49
• Attitudes Toward Advice & Continuous Improvement: 29:49–32:37
• Crisis Management Insights: 32:43–36:53
• Best Practices for Internal Audits: 36:53–41:36
• Plant & Facility Maintenance: 41:36–45:10
• Cultural & Practical Hygiene Challenges: 45:11–54:22
• Training vs. Education Philosophy: 54:22–56:03
• Preview of Upcoming HACCP Series: 56:03–58:48

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Final Thoughts

Rick’s decades of experience shine throughout the episode, making it a goldmine for food safety professionals at every level. His emphasis on develop-document-implement-maintain, continuous improvement, pragmatic risk awareness, and active employee education offers both strategic and practical blueprints for anyone tasked with safeguarding the food supply.

For more of Rick’s work, listeners are encouraged to browse his author profile at Food Safety Magazine’s website.

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Transcript

[A]

The presenting sponsor of Food Safety Matters is ifc. Now, before we dive into the fundamentals of food safety, don't forget about decontamination for microorganisms. Whether it's post construction sanitation concerns about a challenging microbial situation, or you require a clean break from a microbial concern, IFC offers the most effective solution, chlorine dioxide treatments. You can get all the information you [e-mail] chlorindioxide that's ind fumco.com chlorindioxide. Hello everyone and welcome to Food Safety Matters, the podcast for food safety professionals. I'm Stacy Atchison, publisher of Food Safety magazine, and I'm here along with my co host Adrian Bloom, our editorial director, and Bob Ferguson, president of strategic consulting. And I know I say this like almost every time, but I am. I'm happy to be here with you too, as well as our awesome extended podcast family. Yes, that's you, dear listeners. That's you. So Adrian, you want to get us started with a little peek at today's interview?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So today I'm talking with Rick Steer,

[B]

a consulting food scientist and an editorial

[C]

advisory board member of Food Safety magazine about his long and storied career in food safety and food science.

[B]

And we also discuss his popular how to column series for the newsletter in

[C]

the magazine where he shares practical, comprehensive guidance on food safety for processing facilities. Rick's columns have been widely read and shared by our readers. So listen on for a deep dive into Rick's advice for food safety and sanitation. Do's and don'ts.

[A]

Well, thanks Adrian. Rick is one of our longest serving editorial board members, so it's really great to have him sit down and talk with us on the podcast. So very excited about that. He's written so many great articles for Food Safety magazine and shared so much knowledge and practice. So for those who are inclined to check out his articles on food-safety.com you will be richly rewarded. Which also, as I was getting this together, made me recall that Rick actually wrote one of my very favorite headlines of all times. It was about early days when we started covering cannabis and that was his title is Grass Grass Nice. I could probably, you know, appropriate for some of the news we're going to be covering today about grass loopholes. So. And yes, I am easily amused. So I think that's pretty well established by now. And holy moly, it's March. What the heck? And that means that time is ticking down on the early bird race for Food Safety Magazine's Food Safety Summit. Being held May 11th through the 14th in easily accessible and affordable Rosemont, Illinois at the Donald E. Stevens Convention Center. The Early Bird Rate is available through March 31st. And for you, our dear podcast listeners, this is your your best opportunity to save big when you pair the Early Bird discount with the very special Food Safety Matters podcast discount of an additional 20% off. So you just want to use the code FSMATTERS20 when you register and save. So come on, come on, come on. Join Us the Summit kicks off on Monday, May 11, with one day of optional certification and certificate training courses, followed by three days of learning and networking that begin on Tuesday with a full day of Hands on Deep Dive workshops. Wednesday offers a full day of sessions that includes our keynote address this year featuring a fireside chat with Joan Minky Shenzer. Always love hearing from Joan. Yeah, that's not to be missed. She is Chief Quality Officer at Vandroonan Farms. She'll be joined by Wall Street Journal food reporter Jesse Newman, who will be conducting the chat. The interview, like Chat Thursday, delivers another full day of sessions and features our very popular town hall with leaders from FDA, USDA, CDC and AFTO. And yes, that includes Dr. Minnie Beshears, Kyle Diamantes, Megan Nichols, and Steve Mandernach. That's going to be a great panel and we'll end with what is usually a very lively Q A session so the Town hall never disappoints. And of course, there's our Expo hall where you can connect with solution providers and continue learning in our Solution Stage and Tech Tent theaters. Plus the Podcast theater where you can listen in as Adrian and Bob conduct live interviews. And did I mention there's going to be a beer garden in the Community Hub on Thursday? So you know we know how to do community. Come and share a cold one with your colleagues.

[D]

Beer gardens for after the interviews, though, right? We don't get the drink during the interviews.

[A]

Yeah, well, you know, that'd be your call. You know, if you think you can handle it, Bob, that'll make for some interesting episodes.

[C]

Okay.

[D]

Graham can still edit things, so it'll be.

[A]

Yeah, there you go. That's right. Thank God for Graham with that editing tool, right? Graham's our producer and editor, in case you're wondering. Who the heck is this Graham character? And you'll see him between two ferns over there at when you when you join us at the Donald E. Stevens Convention center in Rosewood, Illinois between May 11th and 14th. So check out the full agenda at foodsafetysummit.com and register before March 31st to take advantage of the early bird discount plus FSMatters20 podcast discount. We look forward to seeing you there. And you better come and introduce yourselves to the podcast team. We really love meeting you. So if you get there, come find us. Okay? Now let's get to some news.

[C]

First up in our news roll today some regulatory news. The FDA has announced two significant updates as part of its ongoing implementation of the Food Safety Modernization act, or fsma now. First, FDA recently released the Produce Regulatory Program Standards, which are a set of uniform standards designed to improve consistency and effectiveness across federal and state produce safety programs. The standards provide a structured framework grounded in prevention, intervention and response best practices to help regulators better oversee farms and produce operations covered under the Produce Safety Rule. By aligning inspection procedures, workforce training, risk based sampling and quality management systems across jurisdictions, the Agency expects to improve outbreak prevention and response and strengthen overall produce safety performance. FDA is also advancing FSMA 204 implementation through a stakeholder engagement initiative and updated Q and A guidance on the Food Traceability Rule. The guidance clarifies who and what is covered by the rule and addresses topics such as applicability to farms, market stalls, seafood vessels, intra company shipments, commingling and pallet breaking, initial packing and transformation. The guidance also clarifies definitions for fresh cut produce and exemptions for raw molluscan shellfish and includes additional details on record keeping and traceability plan requirements. Also regarding traceability, FDA has finalized an exemption for certain Grade A cottage cheese products that are already regulated under the Pasteurized Milk Ordinance and Interstate Milk Shippers programs after concluding that existing public health controls sufficiently mitigate traceability risks for for these products and to support FSMA 204 implementation, FDA and the Partnership for Food Traceability are organizing quarterly engagement sessions including listening and small group discussions to tackle real world compliance challenges and potential solutions related to lot level tracking and data management. As a reminder, the compliance date for the Food Traceability Rule was extended to July 20, 2028 to give industry more time to prepare for compliance.

[A]

You know, there's an awful lot in here that I see that I know that Steve Manternack's going to probably be covering as far as state involvement with produce and also just FSMA as a whole. Because our closing session is actually looking at FSMA, the 15 year anniversary of FSMA. So plenty of opportunity to talk about all of these implications as well as the impending Is that the right term at this point? The Traceability Rule? It's coming. It really is. I mean, they seem, they seem to be really engaging in talking about it a bit and getting out guidances and things.

[D]

So, you know, well, this, this is really good news because in the insight surveys we've done before on the traceability studies, traceability rule, people always ask for this kind of definition and this kind of guidance from fda because, you know, one of the questions I remember asking, I spoke to somebody who processes tomatoes and he wasn't sure when the tomatoes change, if they crush them and make them into tomato paste or the other products they make or where they become transformed. So that was a little bit unsure about what those definitions were. So if they're coming out with these kind of guidance rules and also the meeting so you can ask those questions, I think that's terrific. The other thing and Stacey, I'll like what you just said in the next insights. We have an article that leads into the summit and talks about the issues at the summit. So again, we're saying the same thing, but this is going to be a big issue at the summit. You'll be able to talk about this and I'm sure there'll be lots of time to talk to the experts and find out more about exactly what's happening. Or at the town hall, you can

[A]

ask the questions directly in this episode. This episode is going to be hitting right around the time, maybe a little bit after those surveys will be hitting your inbox, as if your subscribers to Food Safety magazine. So, you know, we want to hear from you. That's what it'll say. So if you want to participate in that, be sure and click through on that email and take Bob's survey. I'm going to put it. It's your Bob's survey. It's our survey with Bob for the Our survey. Yeah.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

All right.

[B]

So in other U.S. regulatory news, Health

[C]

and Human Services Secretary Robert Kennedy Jr. Is drawing even greater attention to food additives regulation, specifically the generally recognized as safe or grasp process.

[B]

So on a February 15 interview with

[C]

CBS 60 Minutes, Kennedy framed the existing GRAS framework as a loophole that has permitted unvetted ingredients into the food supply. Secretary Kennedy said that the US Government does not know how many ingredients there are in American food and cited estimates between 4,000 and 10,000. Kennedy also highlighted plans to tighten oversight by revising the grass rule, including responding to a petition submitted by former FDA commissioner Dr. David Kessler urging the FDA to revoke GRAS status for certain highly processed, refined carbohydrates. However, details of the proposed rule are still pending review by the White House and no clear timeline has been provided 60 minutes also asked why Kennedy thinks he will prevail in regulating ultra processed foods, or UPFs, despite President Trump's deregulatory stance, to which he answered, I'm not saying that we're going to regulate UPFs. Our job is to make sure everybody understands what they're getting, to have an informed public.

[B]

So it seems that despite the joint

[C]

request for information issued by FDA and USDA last summer to establish a statutory definition for UPFs, the FDA, at least under Secretary Kennedy, may not be intending

[B]

to pursue regulation associated with highly processed or ultra processed foods.

[C]

The only thing that seems clear here is that we're getting some mixed signals on whether FDA intends to take a regulatory position on ultra processed foods. So we shall see.

[D]

This is such a big undertaking. I think it's easy to take a look at this and say they should just change the grass rule and put some regulations in place, but it is so wide sweeping the impact that will have. It seems to me, and I think I've said something like this before, that it would be the right path to change what's the, what the demand is. So he says, you know, if everybody understands what they're getting, it has an informed public and they have a drive to actually change what it is that they eat. And they stop buying things with ingredients that they don't want and buy things with ingredients that they do want, that'll be ahead of what the rulemaking will be because it's going to take some time to really put this in place. I mean, you mentioned before what they say, 4,000 and 10,000 ingredients that are not cataloged or not known. So the way to change that, I think is by changing habits. But again, that's not easy either.

[A]

So the grass thing, so I was reading in our first guest this year, Helena Bottmler, evic's Food Fix newsletter, she talked about on grass that there are some lawyers that are getting together and saying, yeah, not so fast that maybe FDA can't regulate on that. Which I, that doesn't really make sense to me. So I don't fully understand it. But there is, you know, articles out there talking about that. So I thought that was kind of an interesting, you know, thread on that. I hadn't seen bold quite before. And then, you know, regulating on UPFs, okay, I kind of thought when they came out of the gate that that's where they were going with this. But now even this front of box stuff and talking about like a red light, yellow light, green light kind of approach on the front of packaging I mean, can you be, can you imagine being a food manufacturer and having to put a red light on the front of your product saying this isn't healthy? I, I don't know. I don't, I think that, I don't know. That seems problematic.

[D]

Well, they, they could and this is easier said than done. So all of you in food processing out there, forgive me if I try to make this sound simple because I know that it's not. But even when you look at things like trans fats and people came out with labels that say no trans fats, and so you can do that and reformulate and change certain things, when decades ago, when low fat became the way to go, lots of products came out with low fat formulations. The issue though is, is if there's one or two things that you have to reformulate around, I have to imagine that that's easier than when you're talking about 10,000 different kinds of ingredients that can be in different kinds of food processing, different types of processing chemicals, release chemicals that allow things to come out of molds or however you're making the product. It could be a lot of different things. So saying just reformulate is pretty easy, but it's not easy to do.

[A]

Yeah. And has food safety implications as well.

[D]

Has lots of implications, absolutely. That's why this is a bigger deal and more complicated than it sounds.

[A]

Watch this space, as we like to say.

[B]

That's what I was just going to say. Certainly an issue to watch and we'll

[C]

keep reporting on it for you. And last up in our news roll today, some international news for you. So on February 19, the European Food Safety Authority, or EFSA and the Food

[B]

and Agriculture Organ Organization of the United

[C]

nations or the fao, signed a memorandum of understanding establishing a three year partnership to promote science based solutions for safe, sustainable and resilient food systems aligned with one health principles.

[B]

So amid an increasingly complex agri food landscape and an era of rapid technological advancement, the agreement reflects the organization's common

[C]

objective of ensuring that innovation drives competitiveness while ensuring food safety. So under the MoU, cooperation will cover several areas such as plant and animal health, pesticide risk assessment and sustainable agricultural practices, nutrition and cross cutting work on data as well as methodologies and communication. The partnership will also promote joint efforts on emerging issues and fields such as novel food biotechnology, artificial intelligence and microbiome research.

[B]

So I think some exciting things will

[C]

come out of that partnership.

[A]

Yes, indeed. Well, thank you both for another great new section in today's episode. As always, there are links to all the articles that we've referenced, and you'll find those in our show notes. And if you don't already, we invite you to follow us on our social channels, LinkedIn X, Facebook, and Instagram. Oh, don't forget YouTube. Just search for Food Safety magazine. And to take a deeper dive into all the great content that we offer, Visit our website, food-safety.com and now it's time for Adrian's interview with Rick Steer, a consulting food scientist who has helped food processors develop safety, quality, and sanitation programs. He believes in emphasizing the importance of how these programs can help companies increase profits. Rick holds degrees in food science from Rutgers University and the University of California at Davis. And as we like to say, and most importantly, we haven't done that in a while. Rick is a member of the editorial advisory board of Food Safety magazine. And after a very quick break, we'll hear their discussion. When you're looking for a clean break from microorganisms, you need a service that works fast, works the first time, but also works safely. A chlorine dioxide gas decontamination service from IFC eliminates microbial life in the treatment area, including treatments of equipment, floors, drains, and critical piping. It destroys biofilms and is safe on metal, electronics, rubbers, and plastics, all while leaving zero residue. So don't fear the microbes. Erase them with a chlorine dioxide service from IFC. Learn more at indfumeco.com chlorindioxide that's I N-F-U-M C O.com chlorine dioxide.

[B]

So, Rick, you're one of our most prolific authors, and you're also an editorial advisory board member, and we really appreciate all your support over the years. But before we dig deeper into your work, can you tell us a little more about how you came to food science and food safety and also your long and studious career in industry?

[E]

Well, food science, I say I have to be. I was brainwashed. My mother was on the fat food science faculty at Rutgers University, so I was exposed to her work. She was a sensory scientist. But I also met people like Olin Ball, you know, who invented the Ball formula, who was department chair Roy Morse, Mike Solberg. These people were colleagues of my mother and my teachers. But, you know, I. I learned from them. And not just in classroom settings, too, you know, in social settings. So, yeah, brainwashed. Rutgers went on to Davis, do a. To do a master's, and fortunately managed to work with people like George York, who was the food safety extension. And, you know, George had enough Faith in me. He said, go, go out and do this project. What's that, Dr. York? Oh, this nut processor has problems. You know, See if you can figure out what's going on. So I got to consult as a graduate student.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[E]

Which was kind of fun.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

But also being very active in ift. I got an IFT scholarship as a freshman. I've been a member of that organization for 56 years.

[B]

That's impressive.

[E]

I've served in positions at the national level, at the local level, ift, Student division president, you know, right after, you know, the third or fourth one in that list, committees, executive committee. So again, I got to work with people. And the committee I had most fun with, I think, was the continuing education committee as we put together programs on food safety, sanitation, product development. We even did one with simultaneous translation into Spanish at one of the IFT meetings held in Texas. So we tried to be global as much as we could. And my first job out of college was at the old National Food Processors association, which eventually got absorbed by gma. But in my days, NFPA had a lab or three labs. One in Seattle, which is now the Seafood Processors association, one in Washington D.C. and one in Berkeley. So we got to. I got to do a lot of, A lot of things. And I had mentors there. Heath Ito, who's voted one of your. Yeah, people for the Food Safety Award Service ward.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[E]

You know, Alan Katsuyama, Ken Stevenson, you know, there were good people to learn from there. So. So I got to dip my toe in a lot of different situations, work with a lot of different products, and even got to do some international travel for consulting through their consulting arm.

[B]

Well, that's awesome. I mean, it sounds like you have, you know, been through a lot of different, you know, areas too. You know, as far as working with associations or working in industry or working as a consultant, and, you know, sometimes kind of sounds like all three at once. So, you know, definitely a very interesting career. And, you know, so currently you work as an independent consultant and you help food processors to develop safety, quality and sanitation programs. And over the past few years you've been writing an article series for us where you share practical, comprehensive guidance on food safety for processing facilities, such as, for example, some of the topics you've tackled, how to safely handle and store chemicals, how to handle pallet management, how to structure a facility, photo policy, or how to handle non conforming products. So just to name a few. And. And I think reading these how to columns, as we call them, one gets a sense that You've seen a lot of suboptimal food safety and sanitation practices over your career. So as a consultant and auditor, how do you address these issues when you're in plant?

[E]

Well, I've been in over 700 food processing plants in my life as a consultant, as an advisor, you know, when I worked in industry. And yes, sometimes you see things that it's like, oh my God, what did, what are you doing? But of course, you have to be kind of polite to them. One of the things that you'll get when you visit factories is someone will, when you finish up, you know, well, would you like to take some of our product with you? And you know, if it's one of those plants that I don't think is up to snuff, my answer would be no. I got to get on a plane, I don't have enough room in my luggage.

[B]

Right?

[E]

Not, not. I wouldn't buy your product in the supermarket at this point in time. So that's the kind of thing that, you know, you know, you see, fortunately not very often, but, you know, it does pop up. And you know, there are times when you have to tell people, you know, you're, you're walking on the edge. Fortunately, I've never worked with somebody who had a food safety outbreak, you know, after I went in there. But again, I've had to tell people, you know, you're not cleaning properly, you know, you don't have an allergen management program and you're handling all these different allergens. So I try, I try to tell them that, okay, here's, I'm here to help, you know, third party audience. Working with a consultant is part of something that every company should be doing, which is continuous improvement. You know, people who sit still are going to be passed, you know, the world, the industry is going to pass them by. So you got to keep working to do better. And I think that's probably the biggest mistake a lot of people make is they start taking things for granted. You know, you've probably seen from my articles, one of my favorite little lines is develop, document, implement and maintain. Well, maintenance is making sure that those programs don't start to slip. You have a verification program to make sure that you're staying on track. And maintenance, again, it's one of the areas where they do fail. They just take it for granted.

[B]

And you know, thinking back over the how to topics that you've addressed for us and you know, without naming any company names here, are there any incidents that you've written about or Maybe haven't written about that have left you really scratching your head or, you know, any instances where you helped a facility address a problem that likely addressed averted a food safety disaster.

[E]

I don't think I've ever averted a food safety disaster, but I've done a couple of projects where we basically rescued an industry. Back in 1982 and 83, there was a botulism and canned salmon outbreak. I believe it was the summer of 81, and most of the canned salmon that was produced was purchased by the United Kingdom. You know, the Brits happened to like canned salmon, I guess. Well, with the botulism outbreak, the market was going to die. So the National Food Processors association initiated a project the summer of 82 to work with the Canners. And it lasted two seasons and basically came up with the salmon control plan. You know, we salvaged the industry and there were a few new innovations that came out of that. One of the companies in California developed the two piece nesting can. You know, in the old days, to save freight, cans were shipped up to these remote canneries all up and down Alaska. And they shipped boxes full of can ends, but they shipped can bodies which were flattened so they had to be put in a machine called a reformer and formed into a circle. And then they put the ends on, the one end on and then they'd fill it with fish and then they'd put the second end on. And it was that reformer which caused damage to other cans, creating what they called the index defect. Well, this company developed a two piece can. You go into a supermarket and you look at canned tuna, canned salmon. Today, they're all one can body with an end. So that was a true innovation. And to make sure that they had the issue about shipping, they designed it angled so that the cans nested so you could pack a lot in a box. Another one I worked on, which was kind of fun and it was one of my first international trips, was we went to China with a team. Pam Hart ENGLISH Peter Kokotis I don't know if you know those names, George York to try to figure out why there was staph enter a toxin and canned mushrooms. You know, it's a canned product. Staff wouldn't survive the process, but some things were done that allowed staph enter a toxin to form in the raw mushrooms. And the load of enter toxin was so high it wasn't destroyed during the thermal process.

[A]

Wow.

[E]

So people were getting staph poisoning from eating pizzas with mushrooms eggs, you know, in school feeding programs. So Chinese Mushroom Adventure was kind of fun and we published that work in food technology eventually.

[B]

Those are some really interesting examples and, you know, I guess just kind of a follow on question. So in your experience and history of working with either, you know, entire industries or individual companies, when you've given advice for things that you think need to be corrected or need to be done a different way, I mean, have the food safety professionals and management professionals that you've worked with generally really been receptive to that advice? Or do you ever encounter things where people kind of really fight, you know, to keep doing things the way that they're doing, or say, no, that's not necessary, we don't need to change things the way you're recommending what's been your experience.

[E]

Generally, people are very appreciative of the help you get. Some. I was in a plant in North Africa one time and they had had a problem, the wind had come up. They have a thing called the homocenes, these desert storms. Well, you've been in, you've been in Egypt, you might have experienced one, but it blew roof panels off of the building. Oh, yikes. Yeah, so they had birds in the processing area.

[B]

Not good.

[E]

And, you know, I'm looking at their raw materials and I'm going, you can't use that stuff. Why? Because the birds have crapped all over it. You know, it's adulterated. Well, I don't think they believed me. And, you know, we went back an hour later and the bags were gone. So what happened? Oh, they're now in the product. Okay. So some people are, but generally people are receptive. You know, they're paying for a service. You know, hopefully it'll be a good service, good advice. And, you know, I like working with people who want to do it better. You know, I've got a few people. I don't work with too many people anymore after so many years in this industry. But the companies I work with, the companies I'm very good friends with, are ones that always try to improve concept, like, you know, the plant, the products, what they offer the public. So. And that's. That's very satisfying and very enjoyable.

[B]

Yeah, that's very encouraging, I'm sure. You know, especially when you're going into plant and you're having to give recommendations for people to, you know, say, you know, yeah, that's a great idea. Or, you know, knowing that that company already has a culture of continuous improvement, always looking to, you know, better themselves, make, you know, better products and, you know, always make sure that their safety Standards are up to par, looking at, you know, even better quality things like that.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So that must be rewarding when you get to work with companies like that.

[E]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know. You know, picking out some of the most widely read columns from this how to series, which, by the way, that's dominated our metrics since this began. So thank you, Rick. Your July 2025 column on crisis management contained some really great advice on being ready to handle a variety of crises, from natural disasters and weather disasters to recalls, to supply chain disruptions like what we saw during the COVID pandemic and other times. Why do you think that this topic of crisis management resonated so strongly with our audience? And also, what do you wish more food safety professionals and management teams knew about crisis readiness and management?

[E]

Well, I think you hit it on the nose with COVID that that caught people by surprise. You know, it's like, oh, we can't have. Everybody in the plant has to work with a man, you know, you know, we have to keep people six feet away. You know, these were all things that we want to stay in business. We got to change. But crisis management, I think, is one that nobody wants to think about. Yeah, nobody wants to think about recalls. Nobody wants to think about a serious accident. Nobody wants to think about a power failure. Nobody wants to think about a roof collapsing due to heavy rain, you know, flat roof in some place like Texas, you know, where, you know, we don't have to worry about snow. But, you know, you get a lot of rain down there. Yeah. I tell people that I'm lazy, and they go, no, no, you work hard, Rick. I said, no, I'm lazy. What I want to do and what I encourage people to do is build good programs, Programs that are designed to anticipate problems, programs that are well designed and easy to manage and spend all the effort up front to build these programs, get them in place, get people trained, and then just step back and manage them. It's a lot easier to manage programs and keep them on track than it is to troubleshoot, try to put out fires. So I think a lot of that is, let's get. Let's get it done. Let's be ready just in case. And of course, we get that last issue of Maintenance, you know, okay, we wrote the program. We've never had a problem, but again, programs should be looked at every year. You know, can we make this better? You know, I think you had a question of, you know, their thoughts about internal audits. Internal audits are supposed to look at things every year, every element of that food safety management system. And maybe twice a year, if it's something that you're really concerned about, I think that's probably it. People want to be prepared.

[B]

Yeah. And certainly the emphasis on crisis preparedness and just being organized and making sure that you have those good programs in place and that you're continually reviewing them for effectiveness and completeness, I think that also kind of speaks to a willingness to do so. And that also ties into company culture, I think. So, you know, I think all these things are intertwined. But you mentioned internal audits, and I do want to address that topic because that was another great column that you wrote for us on the importance of conducting internal audits. And I guess it seems like this topic has the potential to be misinterpreted. Sometimes, you know, people might question, what's the purpose of conducting an internal audit? Or how do you do it properly? Or, you know, what should you do with the results when you have them? And my question for you on this is, where do you think that food safety teams go wrong, commonly with internal audits? And, you know, how can they avoid these pitfalls?

[E]

Yeah, the internal audit programs comes out of the ISO22000 food safety standard, which was finalized first in 2005 and has since been updated. But, you know, internal audits were kind of a new, new thing for American food processors. It really came out of the Europeans and their, and their involvement with the committee. Now you're supposed to look at every single element of the food safety management system. This last column I did, I tried to put in all the elements of what makes up, but each one of those has got to be subject to the audit, and it should be an independent audit. You don't want quality auditing, quality and safety, but that means you've got to train internal auditors. So that's an added cost. So you want somebody from purchasing, from warehouse, from distribution, from quality, from sanitation. You know, all of the operating groups within the company have got to have a trained, have someone or two persons that have been taught to do this. And of course, that's again, that's a cost. That's training. The other thing is the internal audit does not have to be done like a third party audit. Your third party auditor or the audit team comes in on a Monday, and I says, we're going to be here for two or three days doing this audit. You don't have to finish it all in a set time frame. You can set it up so that if you have 25 elements that make up your food safety management system. You do two or three a month, which gives you the time to get the audit done, to report on what was seen and then make changes, if any are necessary. And again, you want whoever's doing this audit, you want them to be critical. So they need to look at the procedures. They look at how they're written. They need to look at how they're actually carried out. They need to review the records. They need to make sure that the people involved in this procedure have been properly educated or trained, and there's documentation for it. So it's fairly intense, but I think it's a very solid way to make sure you've got all your ducks in a row.

[B]

And, you know, so the results from an. From an internal audit, you know, if it's spread out over a period of time, or even if it's, you know, conducted in a condensed period of time, where do you think people go wrong with implementing the results? You know, should they be doing more than just determining if their ducks are in a row? You know, what, what, what should companies be striving to do with the results of their internal audits?

[E]

Well, ideally, you say, well, you're following what we set up. Everything looks good, but we could improve in this area. And again, that's one of the basic elements of a HACCP program or a food safety management system is continuous improvement. You know, as I said earlier, people who accept the status quo end up getting passed. You know, so don't accept the status quo. Keep trying to do better. And again, that's. That's a management function. You know, some managers, you know, their attitude is, we got to keep looking to do better. Others go, we're fine, accept it as it is. Those aren't the ones I want to work with. Those people aren't any fun to work with because some. Sometimes it's like talking to a wall.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, I can see that. So, you know, another article, which was actually a feature in the magazine, tackled how to manage your physical plant as a prerequisite. And in that article, you looked at procedures and maintenance for everything inside and outside the walls of a facility, from utilities, equipment, employee hygiene and warehousing, to things like pest control, sanitation, waste disposal, and lots more. It's a great article. And, you know, of course, each one of these topics could be an article series in itself. So just kind of a question for you as an expert author, how do

[C]

you choose which details to address in

[B]

an article like this that covers a lot of ground?

[E]

Well, that one was kind of inspired by when I teach hasp, you know, and I've probably taught three or 4,000 people over the years. Oh, yeah. In different companies. But, you know, we get that group of people in a classroom, which unfortunately doesn't happen so much anymore now that they're into virtual meetings. You know, you have people from several different plants with. Within a company. I always say, okay, how old is the plant you work in? 50 years. How old? Oh, we just built a new one. That's great. Oh, 100 years. It's amazing how old some of these food processing facilities are. And the older the plants, you know, the more effort that has to go into simply maintenance. The roof has. The roof can't leak. You know, you start to see windows or screens being damaged. It's just, you know, age, I think, is the big. Is the big enemy of these facilities. But again, a physical plan is a lot of things. It's floors, walls, ceilings, drains, the roof, your filtration systems, the concrete, you know, one of the. I worked in egypt for two and a half years on a u. S. Agency for international development project, and we had a couple of people come in who were engineers that talked about plant design and maintenance. So we do workshops on different topics. One of the companies called me up and said, rick, we need you to come out and see our plant. We listened to what we learned in the classroom, and we want you to see it. Okay. So they built a really nice facility. Nice roofing doors that were closing easily, but they were making acid products, you know, pickles and other things. And, well, they poured a concrete floor, and they didn't have any coating on it. They hadn't started producing it. And I said, you got to coat this floor. Acid eats concrete. You know, in a quarter, you're going to have rivulets through the concrete from the FA Acid. So I said, I hate to say that to you because you've done a really nice job, but. So, yeah, again, these are just things that people. They don't think about.

[B]

Yeah. And I mean, in that situation, of course, aside from, you know, that causing lots of maintenance problems and potential safety issues, you know, it could card. It could invite harborage points for pathogenic organisms, too. So, yeah, maybe lots of problems with something as, you know, you think a floor, it's simple. Right. There's so much involved with making that floor work for your plant and your product in terms of, you know, safety, food safety, worker safety, and, you know, not having to spend a fortune on maintenance.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So lots of considerations that as you as you said people do not always

[E]

consider do it right the first time. That's.

[B]

Yeah, that's great guidance. It's great advice. Now another widely read article that you did for us dealt with building a culture of hygiene in the processing plant. And you covered a lot of ground

[C]

on this one as well.

[B]

You looked at employee personal hygiene, you looked at visitor policies, you looked at clothing and personal effects like jewelry, makeup, perfume, and you looked at employee sick policies, just to name a few. What do you think are some of the most misunderstood or frequently ignored best practices for hygiene and food plants?

[E]

I would say one of the ones is setting up adequate hand washing facilities. All too often I've been to a plant and they have 100 workers on a shift and the requirement is everybody has to wash their hands before they go onto the process floor. But they've only got three or four hand wash sinks and people are supposed to be there for shift change at 7 o' clock in the morning. Well, they back up at the hand wash stations. So some people skip it. So. And then of course the other thing is keeping those properly supplied, that the same applies to bathrooms and restrooms. You know, the, the hand wash things have to prop. Be properly supplied for everyone. So, and I, and I do prefer foot or knee operated water systems as opposed to batteries. I don't know how many, how often you've been in restrooms and you put your hand under the sink and no water comes out. Well, the battery's dead so you can't wash your hands or you got to move to another sink. So that's probably the biggest one. And then of course letting people know that you can bring stuff into the plant if you're not careful. One of the outbreaks that Cliff Coles told me about was salmonella with a ravioli product. Turned out they had a worker in the plant who kept chickens at home. And every day before he went to work, you know, he'd go out in the bar, out in the coop and feed the chickens. He'd come to work and he's got these boots that he's walked through the chicken coop in. And chickens are carries of salmonella. He takes off his boots, he puts them on the bench, puts on his work shoes. What's the bench? The workshop, the home shoes in the locker, touches his hand to the bench where the boots were and neglected to wash his hands properly. So they found the same serotype of salmonella in his chickens as they did in the product. So again carrying it into the plant and then improperly washing his hands or not washing his hands. So I think that's always a big one.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that also speaks to the need to better outline what are the. What are the paths that employees take, can. Should be taking to get from A to B. You know, no shortcuts, because you might contaminate an area.

[E]

And I'm a firm believer in focusing on hand washing as part of the training for people. You know, use some of the tools that are available, you know, like get some people out of the classroom or the room you're working in. Have them touch petri dishes to show them their hands, have bacteria, then have them go wash their hands and do the same thing and repeat it. I did that little exercise for my sister's grade school class one time. Yeah, of course. And so I brought. How many kids in the class now? 30. So I brought about 40 petri dishes. So every kid could touch one and we put his name on it or her name on it. And then we had some of them wash their hands and touch them again. So they got to see the result of dirty hands. Clean hands.

[B]

I bet they were fascinated.

[E]

Oh, yeah. One kid, one girl's petri dish was so overgrown that they actually called the school nurse in the next day.

[B]

Oh, my goodness. Yeah, that's not good.

[E]

It was overgrown. It was stinky. Oh, my God. But, you know, the kids learn that they got to wash their hands.

[B]

Yeah. That. An exercise like that definitely illustrates the importance of hand washing and, you know, makes the invisible visible, you know, so to speak. So.

[E]

And some of the products that are out on the marketplace that you can put. Put it on your fingers and touch things and then wash your hands to see if you remove all the product.

[B]

Right.

[E]

Those. Those are great tools, and I encourage the use of them. You know, they're kind of fun, too.

[B]

Yeah. Because, I mean, you know, it is one thing to wash your hands, but to wash your hands properly so you're actually getting all the bacteria off. That's. That's another thing. And I. I think, you know, I mean, handwashing is a big part of, you know, best practice in a processing facility, you know, or other. Other types of. You know, obviously, retail food service is another big area where hand washing is so critical. But, I mean, what do you think are some ways the facilities can ensure that these best practices and procedures are actually being followed and upheld?

[E]

Well, managers have to be diligent. If they see somebody doing something, stop them, tell them, let them know. The other thing is to make it convenient, you know, if the Hand washing facilities are only at the entrance to the plant and you have to walk 400 yards to get to your workstation and your hands get dirty. Are you going to walk another 400 yards back to the. No. So hand washing stations should be put up around the plant so they're convenient and accessible. Let people know if you see something wrong. I have a photograph that I use when I'm teaching on basic hygiene. It was a plant that I was in and they had these signs that said hairnets mandatory. And they had a picture of a woman with a hair net covering all his hair or her hair. I've got a photograph of three women on the floor standing in front of this sign. Not one of them has a hairnet. And I'm sitting there walking through the plant with the, with some of those managers and I'm kind of looking at them and trying to point toward the ladies, you know, are they going to say anything? No, never said a word. Of course, it was in my final report. And that photograph went into the final report, said, you know, if you're going to have a policy, enforce it. If you don't enforce it, nobody's going to listen to it. So anyhow, encouraging people through rewards. You know, one of the companies I worked with had a program where on a weekly basis they would give people coupons for the local grocery store for the movie theater, you know, if their area was judged the cleanest and best maintained for that week. So it became a competition. You know, you had the production floor, you know, the batching area, the warehouse. You know, everybody was competing and it really worked, you know, and they weren't, you know, a twenty dollar gift certificate for the market, that's nothing, you know, enough for three or four tickets to go to the local movie theater, which of course, there's not so many of them anymore since COVID So I think, yeah, and that's just an easy way, an incentive to do it. Right.

[B]

So it sounds like, you know, if you want these best practices and procedures to be followed and upheld, it's at least two parts. So first you need to make it convenient and extra accessible for people to be able to follow these policies and have access to the, you know, equipment and tools they need to uphold these policies, but then also, you know, making sure that they're being followed and also, you know, providing incentives for following them. And that's.

[C]

That comes down to culture too.

[B]

I think.

[E]

So. Yeah. Well, that's something that I just addressed in the most recent article I've submitted to you. You know, is record keeping. But part of record keeping is developing the procedures and address and making sure that people are properly educated or trained on understanding the procedure and following it. You know, I, I tend to like to use the term education instead of training. And again, that was one of the lessons from my mother. You know, one time she says, no, Rick, you train your dog, but you educate a person. And I've always remembered that, you know, because education implies that you understand it. Training, it's we do it because we were told to or the dog. I do it because I'll get a treat if I do that. But you want people to understand it and why it's important. And again, the other thing too is third party auditors now come through and you know, they don't just talk to the managers anymore. They're going to talk to the line people, the floor people, you know, well, tell me what's, what's your job? You know, why is it important? And if they answer stupidly or, you know, just look at them like I don't know what you're talking about, well, they're going to get written up, you know, because food safety, food hygiene is everybody's job in a plant.

[B]

Absolutely. So I'm really excited for the topic of one of your next column series that'll be a two parter on HACCP and we'll be featuring those in our Tuesday Digest newsletter letter in the spring. So can you give our listeners a little teaser for this series so they can keep an eye out for it?

[E]

Well, that one was kind of a challenge to write. Keeping it down to X number of words.

[B]

Right?

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

You know, at least I had two parts to do because with the internal audits that we mentioned earlier, there are lots and lots of elements that make up your food safety management system. You know, the HACCP plan is part of it, but you have all the prerequisite programs. Pest management, cleaning and sanitation hygiene, you know, worker clothing, you've got warehouses, you've got shipping, you've got receiving, you've got food defense, you've got buildings and grounds. You know, so when you break out all these elements, you know, you probably can put them into about 10 or 15 different buckets with maybe up to 20 or 30 procedures for each bucket. You know, particularly preventive maintenance and cleaning and sanitizing, because you need to maintain everything and you need to clean and sanitize everything. You know, not just the equipment but the, the physical plant. And with, with maintenance, well, think of what goes on in a plant, you know, you have something you're supposed to do every day might be oiling the equipment. Then you have a weekly maintenance, a monthly maintenance, and then once a year, maybe or twice a year, you know, you shut it down and do a full maintenance. So one piece of equipment might have 4, 5, 6 different maintenance schedules and programs. So that's, you know, as you said, a lot of these are. These issues are a how to topic under themselves.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

So it was kind of a challenge to put this all together. I basically what I did was I went back and I found a report to a company that I worked with who was literally starting from square one.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[E]

Wow. So I took each of those buckets and that became the basis for the article.

[B]

Well, we appreciate you tackling such an extensive subject for us with these how to columns and we'll definitely tell people to keep an eye out for those columns in the spring. Well, Rick, I want to thank you for being on the podcast today and sharing all of your expertise in these areas. I feel like you throughout the years with Food Safety magazine, you've contributed so much amazing guidance and expertise for our readers and now our listeners. And so we really appreciate you being. We really appreciate your support of Food Safety magazine over the years. And we will of course include a link in our show notes for this podcast episode to your author profile on our site and that way people can see everything that you have written for us in order of most recent to all the way going back many years. So again, Rick, it's been wonderful talking with you and thank you again for, for, for taking the time.

[E]

Oh, thank you. And you know, it's going back. Even a couple of the articles were inspired by my time in Egypt, which was 25 years ago. So thank you. My pleasure.

[B]

Thanks, Rick.

[A]

Thanks again to Rick Steer for joining us on the podcast today and of course, a very special thanks to our sponsor, ifc. Remember, whether it's post construction sanitation concerns about a challenging microbial situation or you require a clean break from a microbial concern, IFC offers the most effective solution, chlorine dioxide treatments. Get all the information you [e-mail] chlorindioxide that's ind f u m c o.com chlorindioxide and of course, thanks to all of you for listening. You know we love hearing from you. So please never hesitate. Send us questions or suggestions to podcastood-safety.com or post a note on LinkedIn, X, Facebook, Instagram or YouTube. We're always excited to get your feedback and to make sure that new and bonus episodes magically appear in your podcast player. All you have to do is click that Follow or Subscribe button in the player of your choice and presto. Bingo. All the episodes appear. And while you're there, please throw some stars our way by rating the podcast, especially if you enjoyed it. It only takes a moment and it's good for everyone. And that's it for us today. Our next regular episode will post on March 24th. In the meantime, take good care of yourselves and those around you, and we'll talk to you then.