A (2:29)

Thank you so much for having me, y'.

C (2:31)

All.

A (2:31)

I'm excited to chat with you.

B (2:33)

Oh, we're super, super, super excited. And before we get into it, you know, I always tell all our guests that we have on here. We're very intentional about the guests we bring on here because they have intention on what they're doing in the spaces that they're in. And the conversation is an important thing to have in these times about everything. So we find it important that the stories and the conversations are super impactful here. So excited to get into it. Ness. Let's get into it. You ready? Yeah.

C (3:00)

Let's get into it. So we're so excited to be sitting down with you today. This is some really important work that you do. So before the work, the book and the platform, who is Mario Bouquet as a person, and what led you into work in trauma and healing?

A (3:17)

This is such a beautiful question, y'. All. I just love that we're starting with this. It's so humanizing. Thank you for that.

C (3:27)

Yeah.

A (3:28)

So, yeah, you know, I. I actually am Dominican, so I was actually born in the Dominican Republic, and I. I came here when I was 5 years old to my hometown of Newark, New Jersey. And, you know, I grew up around a lot of people that look like me and were just a part of my community. But I also, you know, grew up a lot around a lot of poverty and in poverty, economic poverty specifically, not cultural poverty or love poverty, which was really nice to have as a, you know, a buffer. And the. The thing about that and why I bring that up as a perspective of what landed me in trauma work is because I come from a place where I've been able to see a lot of the ways in which trauma has actually impacted so many people that are part of my community. Right. Like, there has been so much that I have been. Even when I didn't actually have the language or really understand this is trauma, I knew that something felt off, right? Like, there were so many people growing up that we kind of had that saying that, you know, most people, like, at age 21 or at least up to 25, will either, like, wind up, you know, dead in jail or, like, in something. Right. And so. And I saw that very prominently. We have so many of our. Of our, you know, friends and family members that really kind of went through something like that, and it was just so prominent. And then I thought, you know, when I started doing some work within myself, actually, I started realizing how much pain even I was in. And fast forward you know, I actually, like, came into this field because the first therapist that I had said, you're really psychologically minded. You should get into this field. And they actually spent the rest of our time together, even though I went to them because I had some anxiety. The rest of our time, they were like, so when are you applying to school? You need to get into this field. And the work of trauma just really came up because then I started working. Even in my training, in my doctoral program, I started actually working within my communities, and the pain was in every single session. Every session had trauma. And I thought, you know, I can't sit here and unsee it because I know what it looks like and what it feels like. But I also know from the perspective of now being a clinician that everybody in my community that's coming in for help has some version of trauma.

B (6:12)

Yeah, I love that. You know, I love how you pinpointed and defined trauma, because, you know, I think growing up in the generations before this generation, trauma wasn't really a word that was being used much. It was just people felt they were going through something or they felt the way. But they didn't know it was traumas that were making them the way they are or making them feel the way that, you know, making them feel the way they feel. And I love how you said that you defined it and you found it in so many of the communities like yours that that was leading to a lot of the problems. I heard you were gonna say something, Vanessa. Did you have something to add to that?

C (6:47)

No. I mean, I just. I love that story and how you were led to doing the work within the community. I think that this stuff is so important. And like Jojo said, not many people realize that that's what they're dealing with when they're feeling something in their lives that just doesn't feel right and they can't move forward that it's trauma. So I love that perspective, and I love the work that you're doing.

B (7:10)

So when people hear intergenerational trauma, though, what do they usually get wrong? And how does unhealed trauma actually pass down, even when parents are trying to do better?

A (7:23)

You know, I love what you previously said, Jojo, about, you know, people didn't have this language before, right? Our parents didn't have it. Our grandparents didn't have it. A lot of us are coming to an understanding of what generational trauma even is now. Right. In our generation. And so it's really. It's such new language that so many of us haven't had the proper way of addressing it. So generational trauma, what it is, is basically the type of trauma that's handed down family lines. What it isn't is a lot of things. It isn't a trauma that only surfaces in our lifetime because generational trauma is the only type of trauma that actually has a biological and genetic. More epigenetic is what we call it kind of process, meaning that if we come from parents who themselves had suffered prolonged suffering, chronic suffering, traumatic suffering, and this can come from so many places. It can come from, you know, a mom or a person that gave birth and it was a traumatic birth. Right. And maybe they, like, almost passed away during that time. Right. Like, that's a very traumatic experience. It can come from really hard divorces that leave an impact on children, and it can come from a more collective place. Meaning that, you know, for us to be individuals that are black identified in society means that there is a lot of emotional burden that we have to carry by way of all the things that we have to experience. Right. Like, so there's. There's so many of those things that are. Can be collective and can be a part of, just like the pain that we suffer as a collective, as a community. And there can be more individual experiences that happen to the one person. Any of those have a capacity to leave within a person an actual imprint, a biological imprint that makes them more vulnerable, more tender. Right. And traumatized. Now, when they have their children, their children can inherit biological messaging that says, I've been in trauma. So now you have a greater propensity, a greater chance of actually experiencing stress and trauma, because now you have this biological vulnerability within you. And if that person, if that child, now, let's say a teenager, gets into, like, some toxic relationship that leaves them, you know, leaves their lives upended or maybe gets into a car crash. And like, you know, that leaves an impact mentally and physically. They now, given that they have that biological vulnerability to stress and trauma, they now are more likely to develop trauma symptoms themselves. So now we have a parent that was in their trauma, and we have a child now, adult, that is in their trauma. So now the trauma becomes intergenerational.

B (10:38)

Wow. Keeps getting passed down.

A (10:40)

Exactly.

C (10:41)

That is so deep. You don't realize that that is. I didn't realize that's how trauma works. That you could pass that down to your children. That. That is extremely deep. So what are some signs that someone is carrying trauma that isn't truly theirs?

A (10:58)

Great question. You know, very often people feel a sense of feeling unsettled for most of their lives. And they're like, as an example, you know, things might be okay. They just got a new job promotion. They're in a relationship where they feel supported. The kids are fine, but the way that they are experiencing their mind and their body is in a way where they never feel calm. And very often when I start working with someone and I start gathering information about their emotional state when they were a child, usually we'll get, you know, some sort of story around how they were a baby that was hard to console. They were just like really always kind of agitated. They were a child that was bouncing up the walls because they just couldn't get calmed down. They were a teenager that potentially was rebellious. And a lot of these things are just the ways in which hard emotions tend to show up throughout all the stages of life. But when we start digging into the past, we start learning, oh, this person's parents were always in violent interactions. Their grandparents also, you know, had domestic disputes in the home. They were somebody who, you know, there wasn't always food in the home. And as a result, they felt, you know, like that insecurity or maybe there was, you know, financial security, but there wasn't any conversations around emotions. There wasn't any support. Their parents were very distant. Maybe there was one parent who was never around because they traveled so much and that impacted them. So there's like so many layers that we start digging into that we start understanding. There's a lot here. And the person who is now just so, you know, living a life where that promotion is taking place, where they have that healthy relationship and the kids are okay, they have never felt calm. Their nervous system has always been in a traumatized state. And our nervous system is so critical when it comes to trauma because that is where a lot of the trauma gets planted. And when our nervous system is always feeling like there is a threat anywhere and we have to be hyper vigilant, which is another very critical sign of trauma that helps us understand. This person has never known peace. And if they never known peace, it's very likely that the people before them and before them and before them have also been in that state of nervous system dysregulation. And as a result, this family has had a legacy of chronic trauma. Wow, that's amazing.

B (13:50)

That's, that's, that's truly a deep, deep take on it. And, and I never thought like, like, like Vanessa never thought of it that way. I didn't know, like, I've had, I've spoken to a few therapists here on the For Good podcast. So I do know that they've told me, yes, trauma can get passed down, but the way you explained it is. It's wild. So, yeah. And then the way you speak, too. It's the way she speaks as smoothly. It's like, I know. It's like you talking for real. I know you telling the truth. It's the way you talk.

C (14:17)

I mean, you're speaking in a way that I can understand. Sometimes experts speak in a way in a language that I don't get. This language really helps me grasp it and be like, wow, let's really work on making those changes. And, yeah, this is an amazing conversation.

B (14:33)

And we're not even all the way through it.

C (14:35)

No. Wow. My mind is just so expanded, and it's exciting to learn these type of things. So in. In families, pain is often normalized. How do people begin to recognize what isn't healthy when it's all they've ever known?

A (14:53)

You know, we can actually tune into ourselves and into our bodies and understand when something feels off. It's. It's something that requires a lot of practice, but it is something that, for. For a lot of people that consider themselves cycle breakers, it's kind of like that first clue that something doesn't feel right. However, you know, there are things that are very much in our face and that we understand. You know, like, even if domestic violence was like, let's say, like the. The norm in someone's home, there's an understanding that. That didn't feel good. There's an understanding that fear was there. There's an understanding that even if there's been a family history of this being the kind of relationship, toxic relationships that are, you know, just the norm, people know. This also has not felt good to me. It has put me in a really dark emotional space, and that's where we can start understanding. Okay, then something here needs to be fixed. Something needs to be attended to. But there are some of the things that I think might be a little less considered traumatic because they can be past this culture, I think, for our generation, maybe not as much. But I'll speak to previous generations where for a lot of our families, hitting children pretty intensely was something that was actually the norm. The neighbor, if they caught you doing something, they would come and, you know,

B (16:32)

I've enjoyed a few whoopings.

C (16:33)

Doctor, we're going there. We're going there.

B (16:37)

I've enjoyed my share. Listen, I don't blame my parents. It's what they knew. Like, it's like, right. Passing down the intergenerational trauma. I look at it that way. That's why I can never sit there and blame not my dad, not my mom, not my grandfather. Because I thought about it one day, I'm like, well, that was like. But that's all they knew. That's what was being done to them. So how could I be upset with that? But I'm not gonna pass that. I don't do that with mine. I don't believe in it. Not saying that it didn't make me tough. I feel like it did make me a little tough as a kid, but I just don't believe that is my form of punishment. My form of punishment is a different type of communication. And not to cut you off, but I know that, you know, that that's kind of. It ties into that intergenerational trauma you were talking about.

A (17:20)

That's such a good. Though. Yeah, I appreciate that. I'm sorry, Vanessa.

C (17:24)

Yeah. No, and I think that's across our generation is that we're all trying to find new, healthier ways to parent and to redirect our children. Like, that is just something that doesn't really. That's dying off, that kind of punishment.

A (17:40)

Yeah. And I, you know, I love what you're both saying. I'll speak to JoJo's point first. You know, what you're saying is what I try to preach all the time, which is having compassion for those who didn't know. I always say, what we cannot heal, what we cannot see. If they couldn't see it as trauma, if they couldn't see it as something that could be damaging or painful in any way, because that's how they grew up. That was what was normalized. That was culture. How could they think to change it? Right. That's the way in which children were reared in. In a way to change their behaviors. But it's important for us to also acknowledge the pain that it could have caused. Right. So it's a little bit of a both and. And. And also have compassion for previous generations. I feel for my mom and my dad for how much they have had to go through. Right. That was a part of that cultural norm, or any cultural norm that didn't get disrupted in their lifetime. Sometimes they're still alive. But, you know, like, before they knew, Right. Before they. They were forced to, you know, into generational work because their daughter was, like, all about it. Right. But, you know, it's important for us to hold that. And then for Vanessa, your point about, you know, future generations, this is where we As a community can actually create a generational shift and really shift into legacies that we wish to leave behind. Because now we know, right? It's not like, you know, our eyes are closed anymore. We understand. Yeah. You know, when you hurt a little human, their nervous system gets really out of whack. Right. And when they start acting up in school, that's a remnant of how they felt. Right. They felt a sense of fear. That fear then becomes kind of like their norm. Their nervous system is just all over the place. And we don't want that for children right? Now we know. Now that we know because this is new science. Now we understand there is an alternate way and we can create new legacies moving forward.

B (19:56)

Yeah, I love that. I love that. And I wish they knew that back in the day when I was getting in trouble in school for not for

C (20:03)

bouncing off the wall, I don't even think they were talking about nervous system regulation or any of that kind of stuff like that just wasn't being spoken. We've grown so much.

A (20:16)

Some of our parents might even say, you know what? Even if I knew you, you needed a little something. But, but, you know, I think that the, the, the major thing is for us to really kind of look within our cultures and see, you know, what are the things that maybe just didn't contribute to our overall well being. What are the things that made it so that parents and their adult children are now going no contact and are not connecting? What are the things that are making it so that siblings are hating each other because a parent treated one one way and the other the other way, and one felt like, you know, Cinderella.

B (20:56)

Right?

A (20:56)

And we have to start addressing these things and recognizing them for what they are. The cultural norms of, you know, an eldest daughter or eldest child being responsible for others. Like, these are things that, you know, as I've seen it, you know, in my psychological world and people that come to me with their pain, I have come to know that it is painful for people many years later.

C (21:24)

I am an eldest child, and I felt responsible in a lot of ways for my siblings growing up, especially after my parents divorced at a really young age. So it was always my responsibility to watch after my siblings when, you know, we would go to our dad's house and vice versa, like so. And I carry a lot of that with me today that I'm trying to release that I don't have to be responsible for everything. These are things that I'm battling. So this is, this is so great

B (21:52)

to hear and to hear your perspective On Evanescence is amazing because I didn't want to say that I was going to be like, well, there's something you were thinking it being an older, the eldest and having to have responsibility and you know, I'm sure there's a lot of elders that have had to go through the same things. But yes, I concur with what she said. You know, after the divorce, all I know is my two sisters, right, Vanessa and Angela. But all I also also remember is how much she was at the house with us, how much she had to make our lunches, how much she had to make sure we were on point when we were transitioning from different houses, making sure that we were, you know, everything was packed and everything was right. So to hear you say that is really eye opening, Vanessa. And I'm really proud of you for

C (22:32)

bringing that up at a pretty young age. Cause I have a. My daughter's gonna be 12 this year, this week.

B (22:38)

And you were doing it at 12.

C (22:39)

I was about 12, 11 years old. I took on that. And so even now, like I just started, you were talking about learning to sit and listen to your body and find what's right, what's wrong and what to release. I only started learning how to do that in my 30s when, you know, things felt unregulated or imbalanced. I'm like, so what's going on? How can I really move forward and embrace life? And it was through listening to my body meditations, different practices to really get in tune with myself, to find out what's right to let go of. So this is, this is a great conversation. Thank you for your work.

A (23:15)

Honestly, that's so beautiful. And I'm so glad that you're doing that self honoring and allowing yourself to embrace the beauty of the things that made you feel good about your childhood and release whatever felt like it was added tension or baggage or burdens. Because you know, for the next generation, right. A 12 year old is already seeing mom taking care of herself, right. And self honoring and breaking the cycle of like, you know, parentifying a 12 year old. Right? Like these are really important things. And again, that's not to shame our parents and generations. No, for you know, making the, the eldest child, you know, responsible. That is the norm in our cultures. Like that is what we do. Right? And this is really about just highlighting like, okay, so maybe this isn't a neutral thing. Maybe this does have impact and maybe it lasts into our 30s, into our 40s. Right. And let us marinate on that. Right. And maybe make shifts.

B (24:26)

Yeah. So many people, you know, I'd love to know, for the people that say, you know, that happened in the past, why are we still talking about it? Why is that mindset harmful?

A (24:37)

Let me tell you something about the. That happened in the past, something that I, I like to call almost like a collective coping mechanism of generations past. Us, the folks that are like the millennials, and of course Gen Z, because they're, like, very vocal, but we are like, no, no, no, we're going to talk about this, right? Generations past, especially the generation of our parents, they were a generation that were in essence, kind of conditioned to just close their eyes and keep on moving if something hurt, if something pained them. There wasn't any addressing it. There wasn't any therapy. That wasn't a thing. Right. It continues to not be a thing for many of us. There's just, like, too much stigma there. It wasn't something that was seen as a part of our cultural norms. And so we have to start considering also the fact that there were different coping mechanisms that existed then where people were very. They were very avoidant of the issue. And a part of avoidance is saying, that happened in the past. Let's just forget about it or keep it moving or, you're strong, you don't have to think about, you know, the past. Just like, just keep pushing. Right. But keep pushing. Although it is something important. Right. And yes, we have a lot of strength and resilience within us that is also part of that generational passing down. It's important to understand that the only way through pain is through it. We have to talk through it. We have to breathe through it. We have to engage in different behaviors that can help us to actually find peace. So pushing it aside or pushing it to the back of our minds is not necessarily going to make it go away. It will come up in other ways in our lives. And so it's important that we actually approach the problem rather than trying to hide away from it.

B (26:34)

Yeah, I agree. I never, I think it, you know, I don't, you know, I don't think it's ever good to not face your traumas or face what your past is, because it's only holding you back from your future when you're not doing that, because there's so many things, things that you need to address in order for you to grow and move on. So I definitely agree with that. And you, you spoke a lot about cultural norms, and I wanted to talk about how those cultural expectations, especially around strength and resilience, prevent people from acknowledging trauma. Though

A (27:05)

they do. They do. Because, you know, there is the expectation that you're just going to get through it. And sometimes that what that does is that it makes people not reach out to you for support also. Right. And people, you know, they may know that you're struggling or you're grieving or you're depressed or anxious, and they think, you know, they'll be fine, they'll get over it. I was like that at some point in my life, and I was fine. Right. And so, you know, that that tends to be the norm. So a part of, you know, how we start healing that at a cultural level is that we have these kinds of conversations, like what we're having right now that really highlight and, like, take things kind of out of the shadows. Right. That's a really important thing to acknowledge because I'm sure that there's a lot of people listening that are probably like, wow, I really haven't thought about that. Right. Or maybe I'm going to send this episode to a family member that never even knew what this was.

C (28:02)

Right.

A (28:03)

And they might be able to really start acknowledging some of the pain that's been a part of them. And, Jojo, I realized I don't think I answered your question fully about what if people say that's in the past, forget about it. Right. There's another piece about that that I like to always kind of, like, help folks with, because I also say, you know, it's important to have very tempered expectations with folks when you're talking to them. And it can even be a cousin.

B (28:35)

Right.

A (28:35)

Like, it doesn't have to be a generation past, but it can be a cousin or a friend who just hasn't been able to do the work because it's too painful for them or just they're just not motivated to. And it's important that we. If they're not ready to have the conversation, what is most likely to happen is that they can actually make you feel invalidated in your feelings and what you experience, they may not be able to hear you. That feels invalidating. Right. Like, to say, like, that happened in the past, forget about it. That's invalidating. That's hurtful.

B (29:07)

Yeah, yeah.

A (29:09)

So when that happens, the most important thing for us to have to do is to basically grieve what our expectation was of that conversation. You may have expected to. For somebody to say, you know what? Yeah, I messed up. I'm sorry. Like, and that's not coming. Why? Because they just have not been able to heal the part of themselves that's Going to allow them to assume accountability. So you have to heal the part of yourself that is waiting.

C (29:41)

Wow.

A (29:42)

For the. I'm sorry,

B (29:45)

I want to jump in on it because I love that you said that, because over the last 30 to 45 days, that's how I've been thinking. I've been realizing. I've been getting upset with my expectation of what I think somebody should answer me or reply to me with or how I think they should act. And I'm starting to realize that, yes, I was grieving the conversation that I wanted to, but I'm starting to realize that, like, how I feel isn't how they feel. How they feel isn't how I feel. So no matter how I approach the situation or the conversation, I have to go and come out of it with the same energy. You know what I mean? So whether I like the answer or not that I've gotten from somebody, I can't let it affect me. Basically, what I was saying is I can't let my expectations of other people ruin my day. And I kind of feel like that plays into what you were saying. You want to add something, Vanessa? I'm sorry. I know I froze.

C (30:33)

I'm gonna mirror exactly what you were saying. You can't let your ex expectations of what you think someone else should be responding to you with. Like, you can't let that ruin yourself. So.

B (30:44)

Yeah, now, now, Doc, I need you to keep it a honey with me right now. Now, how do you tell someone, because I've, you know, I've seen it in many different situations that they need therapy without them thinking you're calling them crazy.

A (30:58)

Yeah, because it happens all the time.

B (31:02)

Like, I've told somebody before not to be mean. Like, you know, maybe you should go to therapy. What do you mean I should go to therapy?

C (31:06)

It can backfire.

B (31:08)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

C (31:11)

It's a good question.

A (31:13)

Yeah, that. That is a good question. Let me just say that sometimes that also feeds into our desire to help push people in the direction of healing. But the only way that a person will commit to a healing journey is if they decide upon themselves that they need the work. So I like to emphasize that because very often people are like, you know what? I've gotten all this healing. This feels really good. I want you to have that too. And that person is not ready, not willing, not going to. So a lot of tempering expectations, because I've seen this enough times. However, you know, if you really want to help someone out, I would lean in the direction of helping them to express their emotions. As an example, you know, you may be seeing that somebody is, you know, more sad than they tend to be. Right. Looks like a little bit like what we call depression. Right. Or maybe they're grieving. Whatever it may be, they're sad. And it's been like a month now. Right. And you really want this person to get some help that's just a part of your heart just wanting to reach out to them. I find that it's most helpful when we offer a person a reflection about the emotion that we see. I see that you've been really sad lately. I'm just wondering about that. Just lead with that. Not, you got to go to therapy, you need some help, go get you some something. Right. But really, you know, just leading with emotion because it's very likely that that person has not had that reflect did to them and has not actually been able to sit with the fact that, wow, I am sad, I may be depressed. Right, so you're kind of almost kind of like being a mirror to them beyond that. I find that it can be very helpful to actually offer something that can be in the category of helping them find help, meaning a book that can, you know, be a gift that you can give them that has, you know, something about the area that they're struggling with. It can be you sending them a link to a conversation. Right. Maybe this one or another one. There's like different ways to just help a person acquire a resource so that they themselves can see, okay, this is something. I may actually need some help and I can reach out. There's a lot of books, including my own. Like, there's so many books, especially by therapists, where we're like. And if you need some therapy or if you need some help and if you really need to talk through this concept of trauma, of, you know, abandonment and attachment wounds, whatever it may be, there's some help. And here's a link. There's a lot of us that do that because we also want people to actually get the healing. So sometimes when you, you know, just send them a resource, there's very likely that they're going to find some additional information there for some help.

C (34:22)

It's really good, subtle recommendations. It won't make someone feel overwhelmed or, you know, attacked in any way.

A (34:29)

Yeah, yeah, so because then they'll erect the walls and they'll avoid you. Right. That's very likely. They're going to be like, I'm not going over there. Like, it'll be obvious that you were trying to accomplish. Exactly, exactly. Yeah.

C (34:44)

So healing is Often framed as an individual journey. Why is collective and family healing just as important?

B (34:53)

It's a good question.

A (34:54)

Because a lot of the wounds we carry stem from the pain that came before us. And that's reflected across family members. Like, you know, let's talk about the very painful and, you know, long standing torture that especially, you know, people of the Black diaspora, you know, across the Americas had to experience. Right? Like, there has been a lot of deep wounds that have not just been the physical wounds that were imposed upon, you know, people's bodies, but also the mental wounds that have been there for so long. Right. The pain, the terror. A lot of that is there's remnants of that that are still impacting us today. So if we are not healing at a collective level, we're leaving the, the work, the job to the one individual in the family that's usually deemed a cycle breaker and is then, you know, kind of scapegoated or seen as like the, you know, the one nobody wants to talk to. They don't get invited to the party, right? Like they, the crazy one, when it's really like they have this higher consciousness. And now they're like, insightful because they've like done some healing, right? But now, like, they're not invited to the cookout, they're out, right? And so it's what tends. I know it's so sad, but what tends to happen is that, you know, this person then gets like pushed away and then everybody else, you know, just kind of gets to keep the status quo. We're just going to be exactly how we were. All the toxic stuff just stays here because we've been able to push out the one that was pushing us to change, right. That was too uncomfortable for us. We didn't want it. And so you pushed the person out. This is why the collective work and the family work is so critical. Because we have to do the root work, as I call it, which is really digging into the roots of the past and into the roots of what really has hurt us and the ways in which we still have remnants of the past existing within us and within our families. We have to heal that if we really want to see a healthier family unit moving forward.

C (37:11)

Gotta heal the this is how we are mentality. Like, this is just what, what it is. This is how we, this is how we are.

B (37:17)

Yeah. And I 100% agree. You know, as I go through healing, my healing journey and stuff like that, I think about who in the family as a whole is ready to really go down that path and you really can't push them towards it. Right. So it's interesting that you bring it up. It does have to be a collective agreement that we're all going to go on this healing journey. We're all going to face some pretty tough conversations. We're all going to have to go through some old stories and things like that that has made us all the way we are so we can all move forward. So I love how you explained that.

A (37:50)

Yeah. And there's a level of acceptance about what cannot be changed. There's this. This. I mention it in Break the Cycle in the book. There's like this practice that is incredibly powerful that we do within my clinical practice, which is we do this thing called attending the funeral of the person you wish they could have been. Yeah. So it's a very deep and very grief stricken, very revelatory, and very, like, people feel a lot of relief from it. And it's helping people to just go through the process of acceptance of the people that are in their lives that are unwilling to change or cannot do the work for whatever reason. And we go into a process of accepting that that is who they are and who they will be for the entirety of our lives. So we, in essence, put to rest the person we wish they could have been and acknowledge the person in front of us, the one with all the flaws, maybe with some toxicity. Right. The one that refuses to let go of cultural norms that are really damaging. We just. We are able to confront the person that is right there in our minds and we just say, you know, I accept you for who you are. That doesn't mean that you accept bad behavior from them or that you have to have this great relationship with them. You're liberating yourself from the burden, trying of trying to change them. Yep.

B (39:25)

Not to cut you off, but I'm so into it. You got me.

A (39:27)

I mean, I appreciate you.

B (39:29)

No, because you. You.

A (39:30)

We're in sync. We're in sync.

B (39:31)

You're here. You taking me and my sister to therapy right now. We in therapy right now. That's what it feels like.

C (39:36)

Totally.

B (39:37)

Like, like, like I'm gonna feel so much lighter. Yeah, yeah, I know. I know. Vanessa gotta get into her questions, but I'm just. I'm so, you know, enamored with the conversation.

C (39:47)

No, it's. It truly is so healing and so good to hear these things, you know? So talking about accountability, what role does that play in healing without shifting into blame or shame?

A (40:01)

Mm. Well, we often want accountability. Right. And it is profoundly healing when you get It. But it isn't always the case, right? There are people that just won't be able to say, I did wrong, I erred, I'm sorry. And when that happens, we, you know, we have to go back into ourselves and start healing the parts of ourselves that are still in that expectation. However, you know, when we have two people that are willing to do the work, right? If there's two siblings, if there's, you know, you know, two intimate partners, right? Like people that are in relationship with one another, parent, child, whomever, and they're both like, I want to do this work, I do. Everybody's invested. It is critical that people take accountability for how they contributed to keeping cycles going in the family. That is something that is not just helpful and liberating to the person that is receiving that accountability. The person that's hearing the I'm sorry, I did wrong, it's also healing. And it unburdens the person that has to assume that accountability. They've been carrying stuff around too, and it's been really hard, probably very shameful for them to admit that they've done something wrong, which is what tends to keep people from actually doing the accountability work. But when it does happen, it does a bilateral liberation of the emotional weight.

B (41:39)

I love how you said using the accountability can actually get you out of the shame instead of slipping you into the shame, right? Like that. It's actually a reverse mechanisms. Sorry, Nash, you were going to say something?

C (41:50)

No, I just wanted to piggyback and just ask another question on top of that and saying that a lot of people want to heal but don't really want to confront family conflict. How do you. Is there a way to heal without having hard conversations?

A (42:06)

There is. And I always like to use, like, the holidays, right. As an example, because during the holidays is there's a little bit of a forced interaction that's kind of baked into, you know, a lot of our communities and families, right. Like, you just gotta go to auntie house, even though auntie's a little problematic. Right. And everybody just has to be there. And there's a likely chance that she's gonna say something about your weight or your hair or, you know, like all the things, right. This is what I always like to help people understand. The work that we are doing within you is work that is transforming your nervous system so that it doesn't go into reaction mode right away and you feed into that cycle and. And kind of like add fuel to the flame and start going back and forth with auntie, right. You can show up to that very same dinner next year with the tools, the internal tools to help you to not absorb that negativity. And that is a large part of the work, is that every. Nothing's changed. Everybody's the same. People are in their character. People are saying the same thing. Everybody's getting into place, Everybody's playing their role. But you have changed. You are different. Your nervous system is different. You've done the healing work that actually helps you to digest the people in front of you in a different way. That doesn't actually add emotional burden to your life. And so when we can't actually get a full family in to do extended work to really kind of heal those wounds, a lot of the work happens with the individual and helping them go back into the spaces where that they're a part of that specifically that they don't want to release or move away from. Right. Some people say, I just don't want to go to auntie's house. Forget her, forget everybody. No holidays for me. I don't know. Whatever they may want to do to really kind of distance themselves. But for those who do wish to be in these spaces and take in what they can. Whatever feels loving, whatever feels, you know, harmonious and not want to buy into, you know, the. The tension and the conflict, the work has to happen in building. What I say is like, one second of reaction time is what you're buying yourself back. When we are able to bring our nervous system down and the reaction is brought down and we can actually buy ourselves one second where we can process. You know what? I'm not going to respond to that. That's where the work is really. Where you can actually see it. Like in vivo in 4K. You're like, Wow. I just. This is the same exact. Everything looks the same. Same decorations. Everybody got the decorations out of the boxes, and it's like, literally the same scenario as last year. But I'm different. Yeah, I can see it.

B (45:10)

It's like you. You breaking the cycle, right? But, like, you know, speaking of breaking the cycle, though, like, what does it actually require emotionally, mentally, and practically if somebody's watching the subscribers, listening, watching, like. Like, what does it require for me to break the cycle?

A (45:26)

Well, it requires. I love that you said the three layers of it because it requires a significant amount of work, but in particular, it requires for us to first start to settle our nervous system. Now, remember I mentioned trauma is very much implanted in our nervous system, so we can't go into hard conversations or we can't go Start digging into the family tree and see who did what until we actually feel settled enough to take in that history. For example, like, if I'm in session with someone, my first session with them is not going to be okay. So, you know, what did so and so and so and so do, and who's been, you know, impacted by mental illness. And let's just kind of get into the weeds of everything that's happened in this family. Now, the healthiest way of approaching this, especially when it comes to trauma work, is first we work on helping you to settle your nervous system. And typically, it would take somewhere around like, 300 to 400 repetitions, which sounds like a lot, but I often tell people, you know what, we have 365 days in a year. And if you work on a nervous system regulation practice, it can be as simple as deep breathing for five minutes a day. The nervous system that you're going to have a year from now is going to be drastically different than the one you have today. And that is a part of how we start settling the nervous system so that then when we start digging into the weeds and we start talking about the ways in which this person hurt you and this person said this awful thing, and this person wasn't present during a time when you really needed them. When we start digging into those things that are so incredibly painful, your nervous system is going to take it in differently. You're not going to feel this state of alarm that's going to feel like you're wanting to escape your body. Instead, you're going to be able to sit with your own story and work through it.

B (47:29)

What about the people that grew up in survival mode, though? Like, what does safety look like for them? Like, how do they learn to trust that?

A (47:38)

It starts with a lot of attuning to your body, like, how often. I mean, you know, Vanessa mentioned she meditates, right? So I know that there is some. Some attunement that you're getting into, right? And. And Jojo, you're very, like, psychologically minded, so I know that there's some done here, right? So. But there's a lot of us that haven't had a moment to in the morning just sit with ourselves and just think, like, where am I feeling anything? Anything at all? And you realize, like, there's a little tension in your neck, there's a sensation in your stomach. These are alerts that your body is giving you that something feels off or not, right? And over time, we start recognizing the language of our bodies and how it's trying to tell us something doesn't feel okay. The work that we do after that has to really be around settling the nervous system, but in particular working within a lot of parts of our bodies to really help settle them. I practice from a holistic perspective. So as an example, I know that the gut is very much connected to our emotions. It's connected to a lot of things when it comes to health. But the gut, we found an inflammation in the gut especially does have a way in which it can actually show up and almost kind of like look like anxiety, panic attacks. Right. Depression. Knowing that if I'm going to be an ethical clinician, I'm going to also ask you about your nutrition. I'm also going to ask you how's the inflammation in your body and really explore that with you. And that's a part of the body based work that I want you to also think about. What's going into your body, what's causing inflammation that when it's like too much, it's actually also mimicking depression. Right. So. Or it's mimicking feeling in survival mode. Right. So a lot of the work has to be around learn the language of your body, learn how you're treating your body, learn how to treat your body better and how to settle into your body, settle your nervous system. And even if you've been in chronic survival mode, which is a lot of the people that I work with, a lot, the majority, the majority of people that I work with have a chronic version of trauma, right. That, that spans generations, but they've been in survival mode practically their whole lives. But when they start learning the messages that their body is sending, they start attending to those messages and they start settling their nervous system. They become different, they become even more insightful. Even when they're in conversation, like different stuff comes out because they're like, you know, they're, they're able to be more present rather than having to be in survival mode and having to just like, you know, be in the moment and be an autopilot. They're able to really settle into themselves and dig deeper.

C (50:42)

Yeah, that's so interesting because I've definitely have been in times where I feel like I'm in survival mode and it's really hard to stay focused and to stay present in conversations, in life, in anything that you're doing as opposed to settling your nervous system and really just trying to be present. It's all connected and it's, it's amazing to hear this on a scientific level and you know, fact based, like this than more than just like, an inkling, because I've always had an inkling that, you know, when your gut is out of whack, then everything else, like, it's all interconnected.

A (51:17)

Yeah. And there's this thing called, you know, dissociation that tends to happen to a lot of us that are, like, in a deeply inflamed, you know, process. Dissociation is basically whenever we. I like to think of it as, like, you know, if you're driving from point A to point B, and it seems as though the drive is like, 30 minutes, but it seems as though, like, it took one minute to get there, and you're like, how did I even get here? Like, I don't even know what happened in between, you know, and it's almost like time just passed you by and your mind was so gone. You knew how to get there. You know the route, but your mind was somewhere else. And you're like, wow, I'm here already. That's kind of how dissociation works, where you kind of lose time because your. Your mind is so fogged up. It's so kind of in. In another place. And that's a part of being in survival mode. And so it's important that if that is happening, part of the. Or perhaps the most important thing that we have to do is working on settling the nervous system. For people that are constantly in survival mode, settling the nervous system by doing deep breathing tends to not be very helpful. People actually go into panic attack. What can be helpful is doing movement. It's actually stretching or doing some sort of. It can be yoga. It can be African dance movements, or even just dancing to your favorite tunes. It can be. Instead of, you know, anything that is like a traditional dance, it can just be like dancing, having a dance party to your favorite tunes in your room. Right. Anything that can actually help you to release the tension in the body can be effective. So if it's hard because you're in chronic survival mode and deep breathing actually makes you more anxious, it can be very helpful to go outside, take that walk. If it's too cold, like it is in Northeast right now, take yourself. Nobody wants to go outside right now,

C (53:25)

but sorry for you guys in la,

A (53:30)

but it is. You know, there are so many ways you can move your body in, you know, aikido, tai chi, whatever. Whatever it is that you can get into, move your body. That will help trauma tremendously.

B (53:46)

Yes. Love it.

A (53:48)

Love it.

C (53:49)

So on this podcast, we talk about doing all things good. And so we want get into how does personal healing translate into healthier families and communities?

A (54:03)

Well, you know, let's talk about the. The experience that I mentioned, like, of somebody going back to that same dinner, right? If you're not getting into it with someone who you constantly get into it with, that's not going to increase the tension in the room. Everybody else's nervous systems won't have to be on alert, like, oh, who's fighting? And like, who's gonna break it up? You know, and. And so already, just in that micro moment, we're seeing a shift in the family where the family isn't going into utter chaos and everybody's just getting into it. So this is the powerful healing work and the ripple effect of even one person doing the work, where the work that you do within yourself can actually have an impact on everybody around you because you're no longer feeding the unhealthy dynamic. So that. And it ripples out. Imagine like, you know, a town where it's a. Let's say it's a really small town and it's like 50 families. And each of these families has at least one cycle breaker, one individual that's like doing the work and not feeding the cycle.

B (55:12)

Right?

A (55:12)

And now this is an entire community. Imagine the impact of this community now. You know, somebody has to go out to the butcher, but they're not going out to the butcher after having fought somebody in their family. They're going out to the butcher with a calmer state of mind. And now you have a community where people are interacting with each other not from a point of, you know, animosity, but. But from a point of being able to, you know, really kind of engage harmoniously. That's, of course, kind of like the dream. And, you know, the world is more complex than that, but that is a bit of that ripple effect that tends to happen even if it's like more minute, more. More, you know, like less. Less visible to us. It is a part of what can happen in our communities if, you know, at least one person in a family does commit to doing some work and not perpetuating the harmful dynamics that have been there for a while.

C (56:06)

Yeah, that is good.

B (56:07)

Talking about committing to doing the work and being that one person. Most of this conversation we spoke about the pain being passed on to people. But I want to talk about if someone's listening or watching right now and they're realizing that they're actually passing the pain forward, what's the first step they can take right now to stop doing that?

A (56:27)

You know, guilt and shame are probably what they're feeling. So I would urge them to focus on the path ahead and give themselves grace for what they didn't know. A lot of people just didn't know, and a lot of people do. So, you know, I'm not discounting that. But there are a lot of people that come to me, especially as parents, and they're like, I think I messed up my kids. What do I do now? Right? Or my kids are already teenagers, or they're out of the house and our relationship is fractured, and they feel this deep sense of guilt, this. This feeling of failure, like they fail their. Their kids. I always say, you know, if people are still alive, there's always a chance for repair. So give yourself the. The grace and compassion of not having known better. Use that as ammunition to do better. Right? Learn the skills, learn the practices. Learn the things that are going to move you in the. In the direction of healing, and then bring that back into the relationships that matter to you, even the ones that have been fractured because you didn't do the work early enough.

B (57:46)

You know, that reminds me of something I just saw online. Shaquille o' Neal said his divorce with his wife caused a fracture with him and his kids, and they were able to finally forgive him, and he was very appreciative of it. But it plays into what you're saying. As long as people are still alive, the fracture can be healed, the fracture can be spoken about, and you guys can have that conversation and eventually move on. So I got to double down on what you're saying, Doc. And I agree. For anybody that is listening or feels like they're doing that, the best part is you're aware that you need to change some things up. Right. You need to break the cycle, like Doc would say. That's just kind of what I wanted to say to that, though, because it was a really, really great answer.

C (58:28)

Yeah, no, that was a really good add on. So what message would you leave to people who are committed to healing not just for themselves, but also for future generations?

A (58:41)

I would say, you know, every day presents with an opportunity to break the cycle, and all you have to do is take it.

B (58:49)

Yes.

A (58:50)

And if you really wish to leave a legacy that's different than the one that you've been left, you have an opportunity to learn how to do that and leave an impact that ripples into generations forward, and people will remember the work that you did. So I know it's hard work. I know it's heavy work, and I have seen it with my very own eyes. It is work that is incredibly valuable and worth it. And you can experience a lot of emotional freedom and peace from it. So just hang tight.

B (59:21)

Amen. Amen. Beautiful, Doc. I'm gonna keep it real with you. I don't know how much you charge hourly, but you just took us to therapy for an hour, so I got insurance if you want to charge that. Don't worry about it. You took me and sis to therapy for an hour here. I really enjoyed this conversation on the For Good podcast. And obviously, before we get out of here, we're gonna talk for a little bit more, but I just want to thank you for all the work that you've been doing in the space. It's very important on the For Good podcast. Vanessa's new here, so she doesn't know what I'm gonna let her know. We give out our four good flowers to you for being such a great person and doing what you do and taking us over this last hour. I think all the points you made were so impactful, so pivotal for this conversation. I know Vanessa and I were at the edge of our seats, like, really tapped in, literally. It was really, really a great conversation. So before we get out of here, I definitely want you to tell people, my subscribers, your people, our people, where they can find you, what you got coming up and anything else you want them to know.

A (60:21)

Yes, absolutely. So they can find me at Dr.marielle bouquet.com and also breakthecycletherapy.com for anything that's related to health and healing. Like, that's what I'm about. So you'll find all the things there.

B (60:37)

Love that. Ness, did you want to add anything before we get out of here?

C (60:40)

No. This was an incredible conversation. I just want to thank you again for all the amazing work you do and for this insightful conversation. I have a lot to think about after this conversation, and it was incredible. Thank you so much for joining us.

B (60:54)

I love it. I love it.

A (60:55)

Such. Yeah. Such great conversation partners. I appreciate you both.

B (60:59)

So thank you so. And I hope I wasn't too loud. You're very soft spoken.

A (61:04)

No, I told you, you're balancing me out. We're good levels.

B (61:11)

All my four goodies out there. Make sure you guys hit that subscribe button. Make sure you leave a comment about how this Dr. Mario Bouquet conversation went. Was one of my favorites, for sure. And we will see you guys next time. We at the 4 Good podcast, where we focus on the good, never the bad, and we're measured by what we do, not what we have. It's your guy. Jojo Simmons, my big sister Vanessa, Dr. Mario Bouquet. And we're signing out. Till next time, y'. All. Peace.

C (61:35)

Bye.