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- [00:00]
A
Subconsciously, it feels like everyone else in the world is living a normal, perfect life and it's just me who's failed or it's just me who's so stressed or just me going through this.
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B
It looks like we're looking at everyone's highlights, so it's easy for you to be down on yourself and feel like, wow, I'm failing and everybody else is winning and so there has to be something wrong with me.
- [00:22]
A
Shame is not the best get up and go mind state. When you shame yourself because you have a setback, it's not going to help you be a creative thinker and reach your full potential.
- [00:32]
C
Last two days, I was beating myself up over something that was like a small failure.
- [00:35]
A
I felt it's like you're kneecapping yourself in this quest to be strong. You're actually making yourself less strong. If you can show up for yourself as an inner ally as opposed to an enemy, cutting yourself down, you will be stronger.
- [01:02]
C
What's good, everybody? It's your guy, JoJo Simmons, and I'm Vanessa Simmons. And welcome back to the For Good podcast, where we focus on the good and never the bad. And we're measured by what we do, not what we have. Today, we're talking about something that sounds simple but might actually be one of the hardest things to practice, being kind to yourself.
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B
Yes, in a world that is constantly pushing for performance comparison and perfection, self criticism almost feels normal. But what if real strength looks different?
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C
We're joined by Christian Neff, a pioneering researcher who helped bring the concept of self compassion into mainstream psychology.
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B
As a professor at the University of Texas at Austin and bestselling author, her work has shown that self compassion isn't weakness. It's one of the most powerful tools we have for resilience, healing, and growth.
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C
Her book Self Compassion and Fierce Self Compassion have helped millions rethink how they speak to themselves during failure, fear, and uncertainty.
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B
And today we're diving into shame, burnout, parenting, ambition, vulnerability, and what it really means to support yourself instead of tearing yourself down.
- [02:04]
C
Christian, welcome to the For Good podcast. We appreciate you coming on.
- [02:08]
A
Elle, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to talk to you today.
- [02:11]
C
No, we're really excited to talk to you. Like we always say, we're very intentional on the guests we bring up here. So if you're on the For Good podcast, it's because you represent everything for Good in the space that you are in. So thank you so much, first of all, for doing what you do for the community and Yourself and. And obviously lending us your time here on the For Good podcast. You ready to jump into it, Christian?
- [02:32]
B
Yep.
- [02:32]
A
And by the way, thank you for paying it forward. It makes me feel like my. My work's getting out there. It's lovely. Thank you so much.
- [02:38]
C
That's one of the main reasons we do it, to make sure that we let people know that their work is being looked at, seen, heard, and used. So thank you so much. So let's start with the basics, though, Christian. What exactly is self compassion and how is it different from self esteem? We jumping right into it.
- [02:54]
A
Yeah. Okay, so if you look at the words self compassion, so passion means to suffer in the Latin. Come as with. So it's really, how do we show up for suffering? And normally we think of that, how do we show up for other suffering? Can we be compassionate? Can we be there for our good friends or our loved ones in a kind, supportive, helpful way? And so self compassion is just basically doing a U turn and saying, how do I show up for myself when I'm suffering? You know, do I show up for myself in a warm, helpful, supportive way? And that can be especially hard if the reason we're suffering is because we've made some mistake or we failed some way, or we feel we're inadequate. But even when we're just really stressed or life is difficult, usually we show up much more in a more supportive way to others than we do to ourselves. We're often actually the coldest, the meanest to ourselves. So we're just learning to treat ourselves the way we treat those we care about.
- [03:50]
C
I love that. That's a great answer. And I love that you work on showing people how to show up for themselves and not just others. It's really important.
- [03:57]
B
It really is. And so many of us were raised to believe that being hard on ourselves is what actually drives success. Why do we associate self criticism with motivation?
- [04:07]
A
Yeah, well, so obviously our culture tells us that. That we need to be hard on ourself. I mean, think about it. We used to have that philosophy with raising children. Spare the rod, spoil the child. It's because you actually can motivate somewhat with harsh criticism. Like you can get a child to pay att, maybe, you know, work a little harder because they're afraid of being punished. We can, you know, if we're hard on ourselves, we can get ourselves to pay attention and work a little harder because we're afraid we're gonna be a failure if we don't. The problem is, though, the problem is all the unintended consequences. So what it does when we use harsh criticism to motivate ourselves is it creates performance anxiety. And we just saw it in the Olympics, you know, and people in those really big moments when they're so afraid, you know, if I, well, it means I am good. If I perform poorly, it means I am bad, then that performance anxiety actually makes it a lot harder to do your best. And so this is related to the idea of the difference between self compassion and self esteem. Self esteem is an evaluation of worth. It's saying, I'm a good person, I'm a bad person, I'm a gold medalist, I didn't make the podium right, Whatever it is. And usually it's contingent on success or people liking us or looking a certain way. It's really a fair weather friend, right? It's there for us when we win the gold medal. But what happens when we don't like it deserts us. So self compassion, you might say, is a true and stable friend. The only thing we need to have to be to be worthy of self compassion is to be a flawed human being doing the best they can. You know, we can, we can always be a flawed human being because by definition, to be human means to be imperfect, not to be perfect. And so the research shows that the sense of self worth that comes from self compassion is much more stable over time. And when you have that basis of self worth, it actually helps you perform better. So I'm just going to keep going if you don't mind, because I just have to say this. With the Olympics just passing, we trained NCAA athletes in self compassion, you know, and when you're a college athlete, you need to be at the top of your game because your scholarship's probably riding on it and maybe you want to go into the pros. And so we taught athletes how to be a really good supportive coach to themselves. Like, which means giving feedback, but constructive feedback, not just like tearing themselves down. And we found it actually increased their performance because they weren't so worried about what does this say about me? Am I a good person? Am I a bad person? Am I a failure? Am I a success? They were able, more able to get in those flow states and just do what they had trained to do.
- [06:42]
C
I love that. And you know, you really do underrate how, how much self esteem plays out in your everyday life for anything that you're really doing. So like for you to say that it really did help those athletes. I can, I can, I can tell. It's like a child, right? Like when they first Start playing any sport or doing anything, you need to make sure that you're working on their self esteem. Whether they lose a game or win a game, make sure you let them know that you saw them trying their hardest. Right. Let them be aware that, okay, yeah, you lost and you might want to win, but you tried your hardest. And you know, you really, you know, you really, you really love the game, you know.
- [07:13]
A
Yeah. You know, and really the sense of self worth is unconditional self compassion. Even if the child didn't try their hardest. I mean, a good parent would still, hopefully still love that child.
- [07:24]
B
Yeah, right.
- [07:25]
A
So it's like your worth is unconditional, your worth is not in question. But why do we try? Why do we try to succeed? Because we care about our child, because we want our child to succeed. And so you kind of differentiate your intrinsic worth from what's healthy and what's going to make you happy in life. You know, I've had moments when I haven't want, I haven't wanted to get off the couch. Maybe I was a little sad or something and that's okay too. Again, nothing impinges on my self worth. But when you have that baseline of unconditional self worth, then you can ask yourself the question, what do I need?
- [07:59]
B
Right?
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A
And actually maybe what I need is to get my butt off that couch, you know, because it's not helping me. And you know, so maybe I do need to try harder or maybe I do need to get my, you know, my shit together or something like that to be really there for myself. So all that is actually part of self compassion.
- [08:16]
C
This is great. I love this. You're really opening it all up right now. This is great. You talk about. So, you know, I know you talk about three components. It's self kindness, right? Common humanity and mindfulness. Which one do people struggle with the most and why?
- [08:30]
A
Ah, okay. Well, let me do. Is it okay if I explain a little bit briefly what each of these components are? And I'll tell you what people struggle with the most. So the first step of self compassion is really mindfulness. And that's the ability to be aware of what's going on. If like a friend called you up on the phone and you didn't pick up the phone, you couldn't give them compassion. Or alternatively, if you just talked right over them and they couldn't get a word in edgewise, you couldn't give your friend compassion. So really mindfulness is listening to ourselves. You know, actually noticing I'm having a really hard time. You Know, you'd think that'd be obvious, but sometimes it's not. Sometimes we shove down our pain. We don't want to admit it, right? We don't. We think it's gonna be weak if we admit we're kind of vulnerable or having a difficult moment. So we don't ask for the help we need from ourself or others, or we do the opposite. We're aware that we're struggling, but we get lost in the dramatic storyline. Like, we're just off to the races, like, oh, I'm the worst person in the world. This is the worst thing that's ever happened. And when we're lost in the storyline, we need a little space just to be able to say, hmm, you're having a hard time. Do you need a little help? Right? So that's mindfulness. And then. So that's kind of the first step of self compassion. And then we need to give ourselves kindness, right? So we need space, but we also need warmth. In other words, we recognize that we're hurting or we're stressed or we failed in some way. And then we need the warmth of just saying, hey, you know, it doesn't mean that you're a bad person. I care about you. What do you need? How can I help? That warm, supportive attitude actually helps us feel safe. We can talk about this a little bit later. The sense of safety is so key because we need to feel safe to actually make good decisions. If we're freaked out like, oh, no, this means the world's coming to an end, or I'm the worst person in the world, it's like when we're in freakout mode, we can't make good decisions. So the kindness, just like a parent, helps their child feel safe. Hopefully, you know, if all's going well, then that, that's really important. That's the warmth of the kindness. But there's a third element. And this is actually to get back to your question, Jojo, what people struggle with the most, it's a sense of connectedness, you know, and I call it common humanity, you know, so theoretically, you could be aware that you're struggling and you could be kind to yourself, but maybe you're just pitying yourself.
- [10:56]
B
Right?
- [10:56]
A
Poor me. So we need space, we need warmth, but we also need connectedness. We need to realize that we aren't alone. And this is for human beings, this is such a deep seated fear and it's often unconscious, right? So built into our DNA is that fear that if we piss off the group and we get Kicked out. We're going to, like, you know, die alone in the jungle or something. Right? So we need to feel connected as human beings, as part of our very nature. But when we fail or make a mistake and we feel really isolated and alone, it just makes things so much worse. And so why is it hard to feel connected? Because in our culture, and especially, I have to say, American culture, Western culture, we're used to social comparison. It's like we all have to be special and above average and that we're continually trying to compare ourselves to others, kind of jockeying for a position. And it's very hard for us to admit, hey, we're a human being. Like all other human beings, we have. We have weaknesses as well as strengths in our culture, we're told to stand out and to think independently, you know, and there's some good aspects of that, but if it goes overboard, what it means is we're all. We feel isolated. And again, subconsciously, we may not be aware of this. Subconsciously. Subconsciously, it feels like everyone else in the world is living a normal, perfect life, and it's just me who's failed, or it's just me who's so stressed, or just me going through this again. It's not logical. It's kind of subconscious. It's irrational. But when we feel all alone, when we feel like there's something wrong with us because we're abnormal, and it just makes things so much worse. So just remembering, hey, mistakes, failure, this is part of life. You know, we say that failure is our best teacher, and we all admit that, and yet none of us believe. Like, act like it's true, but it is true. It is true. Right? We're, as human beings, part of how we learn is by failing. And it actually connects us to other people. It doesn't make us isolated and separate.
- [13:02]
B
This is so good to hear, like, because I feel like a lot of people need to hear this, especially with how popular social media is. It looks like we're looking at everyone's highlights, so it's easy for you to be down on yourself and feel like, wow, I'm failing and everybody else is winning, and so there has to be something wrong with me. And so I just feel like this conversation is so important for people to hear. I'm regretting not having a notebook to jot down some of these gems you're dropping because they're just. It's incredible.
- [13:30]
A
Yeah, well, and Vanessa, just to kind of go a little further with that, I mean, yeah, this is kind of intentional, right? How does social media work, how does advertising work? Is to kind of make you feel bad about yourself so you buy my products. That's kind of the way capitalism works in a way. You know, not, I'm not against capitalism or anything, but we just have to be aware that we're being manipulated at some level by the culture that wants us to feel like we are inadequate and we need to somehow buy certain products or achieve certain goals in order to be worthy. A lot of it subconscious. All the invest this is investment in self esteem. If I wear the right clothes, if I'm the right religion, the right gender, the right race, you know, the right whatever, the able bodied, all those isms, they're subtly predicated on the idea that my group or me that people I can identify with somehow need to feel a little superior so I can feel good about myself, you know, and think about all the pain, the incredible pain that causes in the world. And so I like to think this is where fierce self compassion comes in. It's kind of a radical act. It's saying no, actually what makes me worthy is just the fact that I am a flawed human being, taking step by step, stumbling through life, doing my best, you know, failing, learning, loving, crying, laughing, you know, that is where my intrinsic worth comes from. And when you have that sense of intrinsic worth, it gives you such incredible strength to do all sorts of stuff. We can talk about the research if you want later. But it's a radical act, it really is.
- [15:07]
B
So for high achievers, people that are entrepreneurs, parents, creatives, how can self compassion actually enhance performance instead of making us complacent?
- [15:18]
A
Yeah, well, so again what it does is it makes you clarify your values.
- [15:23]
B
Right?
- [15:24]
A
So what is it that I really value? If you're doing it just because you want to look good in the eyes of others, you know, again that that will get you a certain distance. A lot of people achieve just to look good in the eyes of others. But again, it's gonna cause lots of performance anxiety. I mean, let's face it, shame is not the best get up and go mind state. Like when you shame yourself because you have a setback, it' not going to help you be a creative thinker and reach your full potential.
- [15:52]
B
Right?
- [15:53]
A
So when we know what we value, you know, maybe I do value inventing something or maybe being the best athlete I can or whatever it is you value. Best podcaster I can, you know, whatever it is, best writer. When we, when we know what we value, then we want to be our best just because we care you know, and it's going to be a way that we can fulfill ourselves again like a parent. We want our children to achieve, you know, hopefully not because we want to judge them positively, just because we want them to be happy and fulfilled. And so with that type of motivation, it's like, you know, imagine we did this with the athletes. You know, just imagine a coach who's like the best coach possible. First of all, that coach is going to tell it to you straight. A coach who says, don't worry, that's not a problem. When it is a problem, that's not a. That's not a good friend, that's not a helpful coach. So we have to give ourselves clear feedback, right? What's working, what's not working, but from a sense of, I want you to do better because I care, I believe in you. And this is the million dollar question, what do you need? How can I help? What would be really most helpful right now? And so one of the big ways it works is it creates what's called a learning orientation as opposed to performance orientation. I don't know if you've had someone talk about this on your show.
- [17:11]
C
Oh, no.
- [17:12]
A
A performance orientation is when you try to, whether it's against sports or academics or whatever you care about. If you do it because you want to perform well. Then again, anytime you have a setback, then it kind of messes you up, right? Because you have performance anxiety and it undermines your ability to learn. A learning orientation means you accept that, okay, I failed or I had to setback or my game didn't go as well, fine. That's what it means to be human. What can I learn from this? And a learning orientation is it leads to much better outcomes in the long run. And this is actually when you're freaked out, you can't even think of what to do next, right? Because you're just freak out mode. But when it's like, okay, ouch, that hurt. Oof, failure. Don't like it, but okay, it happens. Hmm. I wonder if I had done that better, that would have, you know, that would have worked out more effectively or, you know, whatever it is you need to change. And that's actually most effective in terms of learning and eventually becoming our best.
- [18:13]
B
I love that you get real with yourself.
- [18:15]
A
Yeah, you have to be real. It's not compassionate just to say, oh, it's not a problem, you know, whatever it is, maybe I just won't get out of bed until three, or maybe I'll have like two six packs or, you know, Whatever it is, self indulgence or not reaching your goals, it's not kind.
- [18:33]
C
No. So what are the two things? So our subscribers can write them in the comments for us? A learning orientation and a what?
- [18:39]
A
A performance orientation. Okay, so this is one of the big differences we found in the field of psychology, that if you're. If you're in it for learning as opposed to just performing, it actually ironically helps you perform better in the long run, you know, and again, you look at athletes, it's such a good test case because, you know, you see it when athletes get the yips or whatever, they're, you know, so worried about what this says about me. They aren't in a flow state. We actually do our best when our sense of self recedes into the background. And we're just doing what we've trained to do. We're just doing what we love. We're just learning, we're growing. You might say it's ironic, but there isn't a lot of self and self compassion. It's like we're moving away from self. Bad, not good enough. You know, separate, isolated, you know, fused with our thoughts and emotions. We're moving away from self into compassionate presence. It's like we're bigger. We're bigger than ourselves. We can reach our full potential. We aren't thinking about ourselves so much. We're just doing what we love. We're doing what we care about. We're learning, we're growing. That's why it's actually ultimately more effective.
- [19:44]
C
I would say I just before you jump in, Vanessa, because I wanted to say I appreciate you, because over the last two days, I was beating myself up over something that was like a small failure. I felt that I had. I did. And I was at first in the performance orientation of like, oh. But then I finally came into the learning orientation. I had to sit with myself and say, okay, yeah, maybe that's. I don't like how this felt. I don't like what I did, but what did I learn from it? And it's just. I'm just happy to know that, you know, I'm taking the right steps when I am going through those situations. Because when I do go through those many failures and many a times in the past when I have, I had no answer for it. I. Like you said, you get into what do I do next? Kind of mode, because you don't know. It's like, I'm a failure. I don't. What did. What did I do wrong? I'm not good enough for it. I didn't do good enough. This defines everything that I now do. You know what I mean? That's like what the mind does to you. So I really appreciate you breaking down those two different ways. That how you deal with failure. Really.
- [20:41]
A
Yeah. It makes a huge difference.
- [20:42]
B
I feel like this kind of work can go into. I'm an actor out here in Los Angeles, and we have a lot of self tapes and, you know, there's a lot of ups and downs and ebbs and flows. And I feel like this is so good for other actors to hear you never. So you don't fall out of love with the. The. The art of it all by checking in with yourself with these types of tools. Because it can get tough out here. Like, you're facing a lot of rejection.
- [21:07]
A
Yeah, I can't imagine it must be so difficult. I mean, so really, again, so even though the word self is in self, compassion, you might say, it's the art of not taking things so personally. So the word compassion, when we have compassion for someone, let's say there's a homeless person on the street and we feel compassion, part of what we're doing is we're recognizing all the causes and conditions that probably went into that person ending up the way they ended up. Maybe family history, maybe issues with drugs or stress. We don't know the conditions, but we don't have to blame that person. We can just have compassion for them and say, who knows what led them to get here in this moment. So it's like a recognition of the larger web. And so again, it's really not taking things personally. We like to say in the compassion world, it's not your fault, although it is your responsibility. So we, in other words, we don't have to take it personally. Let's say you get rejected, you know, you don't have to take it personally. It doesn't mean you're a bad person. Probably a lot of factors went into it, most of which probably have nothing to do with you. What the. What the people are looking for, what they ate for lunch that day. You know, you don't even know what went into. Like that rejection is huge. The causes and conditions. You don't need to take it personally, but the reason we do have to take responsibility. Going back to what you said, JoJo, no one else is going to change it. If, for instance, if we want to, like, reach our goal, you know, we do have to work on ourselves, you know, sometimes nothing to do with us, but especially when we've hurt someone else, we don't have to blame ourselves for it. But we do need to take responsibility because no one else is going to take responsibility for us. You know, so we don't take it personally. We don't judge or shame ourselves. At the same time, if we care, we're going to do our best to do better next time or repair the situation. There's research that shows that if you have people think about hurting someone in the past and you either tell them to have compassion for how they've hurt the person, or you tell them not anything, which means they're probably beating themselves up. They're much more likely to apologize and try to repair the situation once they've given themselves compassion for harming the other person because it allows you to feel safe. And then you can say, oh wow, no man, I really did screw up. I'm so sorry.
- [23:26]
C
You brought up judging and shaming ourselves. Right. And I'd love to know what role does shame play in mental health and how does self compassion interrupt that cycle?
- [23:35]
A
Oh, so shame is huge. Whenever you have a very sticky emotion that you like, you know, when like maybe sadness turns into depression or fear turns into anxiety or, you know, addiction, some things that you just kind of can't shake this negative spiral. Often shame is involved. And the reason shame is so sticky and so hard to work with is because it goes underground. So again, so evolutionarily, right, we're shamed. It meant that the group kicked us out and then we really would be left kind of dying around. It was incredibly frightening. And this is just built into our evolution that the feeling of shame is normal. It's natural. You don't want to judge yourselves for feeling shame. But because it's, I mean, think about it. When you feel shame, it's like the ickiest emotion there is. So a lot of our psychology is invested in not feeling it. It just goes underground. It's just shoved into our self conscious. So we often, we don't even know that we're experiencing shame. And yet that shame is like making everything worse. It's like kind of keeping us stuck into place. It's almost like glue stickiness and fusing us with these negative thoughts and emotions. So shame, if you look at the opposite of the three components of self compassion in my model, it's a self judgment, feelings of isolation and what's called over identification. That's when you're really taking things personally. That's another way of describing shame. And so what self compassion does is it kind of unravels shame. And again, there's there's so much research showing this. First of all, once you, once you recognize, hey, everyone feels shame. It's part of being human. Everyone makes mistakes. We feel a little more courage. We can kind of, you know, with the mindfulness, we can kind of see the shame. You gotta see it before you can heal it. If it's just underground, you can't even work with it. Okay, can I allow myself just to. Even though it's really uncomfortable, can I feel the shame a little bit? Okay, well, shame, you know, it's. We like to say that shame is just the wish to be loved. Everyone feels shame. Everyone wants to be loved, baby. They're born into the world, they want to feel loved. It's just built into. It's like the flip side of shame is just this innocent wish to be seen favorably in the eyes of others. And it hurts so badly when we think we don't. So we can actually start to open to ourselves remembering that, hey, it's part of being human. Everyone makes mistakes. We don't have to take it so personally, you know, and we can be kind and actually allow the shame to see the light of day. Almost like you give yourself a hug or you're there for yourself and eventually the shame starts to unravel. It's actually, it's almost like magic. I mean, it's not magic. It doesn't make your pain go away, but it's like alchemy because again, instead of being fused with the negativity, which we are when we're in a state of shame, we actually rest in the, you might say the loving, connected presence that's holding the shame. Just like a parent with their crying child. Yeah, we're the crying child, but we're also that parent loving that crying child. And that's a beautiful feeling. It's a loving feeling. It's a connected feeling. And that actually leads to positive emotions like happiness and hope and joy and optimism. So it's alchemy. It transforms the negative, the negativity of the suffering into the positivity of the compassion. But without papering over or denying that the pain is real. The pain is there, deep.
- [27:02]
C
That was a great connection you made between the two. That was amazing. That was really great.
- [27:07]
A
You can see why I've spent 20 years of my life on this. I just still get blown away by the power of self compassion. And it's our birthright. Everyone is capable of it. You know, you don't have to go to graduate school to learn how to be self compassionate. You know, we Are mammals. Which means, actually, is this a good time for me to go into the evolution here? Because it's kind of fun.
- [27:30]
C
You can do whatever you need to do here on the foreground.
- [27:32]
A
All right, here's the thing. It's all natural. It's all natural. So as animals, right, as human beings, we're part of the animal kingdom. We get evolved. The first system that comes up when we feel threatened is the threat defense system. You've probably heard about this, right? The sympathetic nervous system gets activated, we release cortisol, amygdala gets triggered, we go into fight, flight or freeze. Yes, very useful when a lion's chasing you. But when the problem is I just got rejected from that, you know, that tryout or whatever, or I made a mistake, we turn that fight, flight or freeze response inward and we fight ourselves with criticism. And at some irrational level, we think maybe we'll help ourselves change and be safe. We flee into a sense of shame. Like we hang our head in shame thinking that that will help us be safe. Or we freeze and get stuck, you know, rumination. Maybe if I think about it for like 67 times, I'll figure it out and it'll be safe. Very natural. And actually the first thing that comes online when we feel threatened. And that's why we shouldn't judge ourselves for judging ourselves. It's totally natural. The good news is we're also mammals. Now if we were reptiles, we'd be out of luck. We'd just be stuck with the threat defense system. But because we're mammals, we also have the care system, sometimes called the tend and befriend system. This evolved, unfortunately not to keep ourselves safe. So to keep ourselves safe, the first thing is threat defense. But what about if our child or family member or in group member? Unfortunately, it doesn't apply to out group members. That's partly why the world's such a mess. But nonetheless, for in group members, people you're close to, to your tribe, you know, the people you care about, in your family, it's natural to want to help them. It's called the tend and friend response. We have a whole nervous system called the parasympathetic nervous system that allows us to feel safe, to calm down, oxytocin's involved. We want to keep those close to us safe because, you know, doing so also helped our genes survive. Because people close to us, you know, they pass down their genes. So this is also natural, but it's just more natural for others. So it's natural to be self critical. It's natural to be compassionate towards those we care about and are close to. So we just need to do a hack. You know, we actually hack into the system that's natural for others and we use it with ourselves. And one of the really easy ways to do that is with touch. You know, your body doesn't really know the difference between someone putting their hand on your shoulder. Are you putting your hands on your own body? We can actually through self compassion by treating ourselves like we treat a friend or a loved one. Our body responds the same way. Calms down, you know, heart rate variability increases, you know, the negativity starts to be less sticky. So this is the good news. It can be done, but it's not entirely natural. It needs, it just needs a little new habit formation. You know, the good thing about the brain is we can learn new habits. We have to kind of unlearn the habit of immediately going to self criticism. We learn how to. Okay, what would I say to a really good friend who just had this happen, like Vanessa? What would you say to a really good friend, a fellow actor who just got rejected? You probably wouldn't say, that's because you're lame. You don't deserve it. Right? I'm sure you wouldn't.
- [30:53]
B
No, I'm going to be compassionate. I'm going to give them some love and encouragement.
- [30:57]
A
Exactly. And then so you just learn to do that with yourself. We don't have to learn a new skill. This is a beautiful thing. We already know how to do it for others. We just have to do a U turn.
- [31:08]
C
I love that. This is great. We're so compassionate and helpful for others, but we forget ourselves. Oh, I love this. Yeah.
- [31:16]
B
I mean, and speaking of others, as a mother, I think that we always model our inner dialogue for our kids. How can we teach self compassion without lowering standards? Oh yeah.
- [31:28]
A
So absolutely. This is so important. You know, I'm also a mother. So first of all, if you lower your standards, that's not compassionate to your child. Right. If you're an indulgent parent, if you just, you know, just your child never gets angry at you or it's not difficult, you're not actually helping them in the long run. And so that's what the research shows. Our standards are high both for ourselves and, and for our children. But it's really about modeling unconditional love and acceptance toward our children's people. The bottom line is they're worth, even when they mess up royally, we still love them, they're still worthy, but they may need consequences. They may need structure, they may need help. I mean, you have to do what you need to do to help that child learn and grow and become a good person. But, like, you can do it in a way that shows you still love them. I call it like mama bear, self compassion. Like mama bear. If you didn't care, you wouldn't even bother. It's like, duh, whatever, do whatever. Also, we can be mama bear with ourselves. We can be mama bear and mama bear, by the way, it doesn't matter your gender identity, right? These are just universal energies. So we can be tough, but we know when that toughness comes from love. Because out of care. Let me tell you a little bit about my child. So my son's Rowan, and he's autistic. And, you know, I really had to use my self compassion practice with him because he was, you know, admitted he was very challenging when he was young. He would have these big meltdowns and I couldn't reach him even. He was just. When he had a meltdown, he was off to the races. But so this is true whether your child's autistic or any child. So not only what we model matters, but what we embody matters because as human beings, we have something called mirror neurons. We have the capacity for empathy. So, you know, when you're with someone who's happy, you naturally feel happy. And when you're with someone who's kind of sad or angry, you kind of feel that in us, this is how the human brain is wired. And especially between parents and children, there's empathic resonance. And my son and I, you know, we're very attuned. So when he would have a meltdown, I couldn't reach him directly. So what did I do? I used compassion with myself first. I would say, you know, Kristen, this is so hard right now. I'd like flood myself with loving, connected presence so that, you know, my whole being was compassion. I was the field of compassionate presence. And my son's mirror neurons would resonate with me right then. So if I would calm down first, then he would calm down, and then I could start to reach him directly. So it's what you model. Out loud, loud. Research shows, you know, maybe, maybe you're not critical of your children. But you say I'm such an idiot because I dropped that. Your kids are getting the message. Ah, that's the way I should be with myself. So it's what you say, but it's also what you embody. You know, self compassion is not selfish. It's like the biggest gift you can give to other people because you are a compassionate presence that their mirror neurons will pick up on. And you can actually help people be more peaceful and calm and loving just by feeling. You know, we talk about it as vibes, but this is scientific. This isn't woo woo. You know, the human brain is designed to feel what other people feel because it was an evolutionary advantage. So what you embody, what you bring out in the world is huge. You know, we aren't as separate as we think we are.
- [35:02]
C
Self compassion isn't selfish. It's selfless. It is. I like that right there. I like that.
- [35:10]
B
That's awesome parenting advice. I just love and resonate with that a lot to not be so reactive.
- [35:16]
C
And by the way, Christian, we relate. My son, four years old, he is autistic.
- [35:20]
A
He is autistic.
- [35:22]
C
So I have a 9 year old as well, a 10 year old now. She is, she isn't. But thank you for that. And to bring back what you said in the beginning. I still remind her that I love her when I take her iPad away. I just, you know, I had to.
- [35:34]
A
Yeah, yeah. I'm doing it because I love you.
- [35:37]
C
I just wanted you to know I still love you. There's a consequence to your action. Right.
- [35:41]
A
So by the way, Jojo, I just have to say for you, my son now is driving. His father lives in Germany. We're split up, but he can get on. He can drive to the airport, get on the plane, go through immigration in Germany.
- [35:51]
C
Wow.
- [35:52]
A
It's just amazing. And he was pretty severe, so.
- [35:55]
C
Wow. Thank you. You know, every time I hear a story, like I said, my son's only 4, he's delayed. So he does a lot of great things. He still needs a lot of help on other things. But when I hear those stories of kids that grew up and can do everything your son is doing, it's an amazing feeling. And thank you for that story because I need to hear him every time. Thank you so much. You wrote fierce self compassion.
- [36:23]
A
Yes.
- [36:23]
C
What does the fierce part mean? Because a lot of people think compassion equals, like, softness. Right. Not. They don't really relate it to fear. So what does the fierce part mean in that?
- [36:32]
A
Yeah, so there's the tender and the fierce. So I kind of talked about it a little bit, alluded to it. So the tender is more the accepting aspect of self compassion. We accept ourselves, you know, flaws and all. We accept the fact that we're imperfect. We accept the fact that life is imperfect. We accept the fact that sometimes our emotions or Our thoughts are difficult. And it's like again, kind of like mama bear, right? Or a parent, ideal parent, daddy bear, whatever you want to call it. Maybe your child's crying, screaming, but we kind of hold that child, we let that child know, I'm here for you. And eventually the child starts to calm down. So the accepting part is aimed at our worthless people. We're worthy regardless, and we kind of accept our lives as imperfect, but we don't want to necessarily accept all behavior or situations if they're harmful, right? And that's when mama bear becomes mama bear. Like when your child runs out into the street. It's not like, oh, I accept you just the way you are. It's like, get the hell out of the street. You know, whatever you need to do, right? So sometimes being fierce, like for instance, drawing boundaries is a hugely important part of self compassion. Saying no, whether it's saying no, someone who's asking too much of you, you know, valuing your own needs as well, whether it's saying no to social injustice, whether it's saying no, you know, at the broad level or in your personal life, if you really care about yourself and you ask yourself, what do I need? You are going to say no as an act of self compassion. You're going to protect yourself. That's huge. Again, just like a parent, of course you protect your child. You wouldn't love them if you didn't. So it's protecting yourself. Sometimes it's saying no, but sometimes it's saying yes, right? Saying, you know, my needs matter too. Not more than other people's. It's not like I'm going to be selfish, but I need to weigh and balance, you know, my needs and other people's needs. If I just give myself away, so I have nothing left to give. I'm not, I'm not any good to anyone. So it's providing for ourselves, asking what do I need? And being willing to give it to ourselves. And then thirdly, motivating change. So if you're doing a behavior that's not healthy to yourself or harming others, it's not compassionate to just let it slide. The most compassionate thing to do is to try to change. But again, change out of love, not change out of fear, being inadequate. And so that's the fierce side. And it's like yin and yang. You know, the yin is more the tender, the Yang is more the fierce. They have to be in balance, you know, otherwise we're either complacent or we're always trying to improve. And Then we're stressing ourselves out. It's like, you know, both simultaneously.
- [39:10]
B
And that brings up burnout. How can self compassion help someone navigating burnout in a culture that is just glorifying hustle? It's always hustle, hustle more.
- [39:22]
A
There are three main components of burnout. There's exhaustion, there's feelings of incompetence, and there's. We call it depersonalization. But basically you just stop caring as much because when you care, it hurts that you can't do it. So you just shut down as a self protective mechanism. And so, and they all feed on each other because you've got too much stress, you can't handle it, you start blaming yourself. So you feeling incompetent, you get exhausted and then you just shut down because it's like, well, why should I even bother caring? And then this is this negative cycle. So self compassion really directly addresses all three. Self compassion actually can help us be less exhausted. Sometimes we have no control over it, but sometimes we can have a little. Say again. By drawing boundaries, for instance, drawing work life boundaries, Learning when to say no, even if people want you to say yes, that can help. Asking, what do I need? Trying to be a little more mindful about how we spend our time and energy. It definitely helps with feelings of incompetence because when you are overwhelmed by stress, it helps you not beat yourself up for it. Okay, you know, it happens, right? It's not my fault. Maybe it is my responsibility, but it's not my fault. I don't need to beat myself up for it. My worth isn't dependent on how productive I'm being. It happens. It's part of being human. And then the wonderful thing about self compassion is it allows you to keep your heart open. You don't have to shut down. You don't have to start caring less just so you can get through the day. It's like, oh, this hurts. I'm burnt out, I'm exhausted, I'm stressed. Okay, well let's just take it one step at a time, right? That type of attitude allows you to go forward without just, you know, completely burning out. Or it helps you also recover from burnout.
- [41:15]
C
Now, for men, specifically all the men watching, listening on the podcast, vulnerability can feel uncomfortable or even unsafe. I talk about this a lot. How can self compassion show up in a way that still feels strong for men?
- [41:28]
A
Yeah, it's such a shame. I mean, men, often they're socialized, their sensitive side is bullied out of them, you know, and the reason it's such a shame is because we know from the research without a shadow of a doubt whether you're going through a hurricane, earthquakes, so any sort of trauma, combat, if you can show up for yourself as an inner ally as opposed to an enemy, cutting yourself down, you will be stronger. Of course you'll be stronger.
- [41:56]
B
Right.
- [41:57]
A
And so for men, you kind of think it's, it's, I shouldn't even think about what I need, or I shouldn't even think about myself, or I should just tough it out. You know, you're actually making yourself weaker by not actually checking in. Do I need a little help right now? You know, what do I need? Can I give it to myself? Or maybe ask for someone's help? It's like you're kneecapping yourself in this quest to be strong. You're actually making yourself less strong. And, you know, again, you don't need to blame yourself. It's, you know, there is gender discrimination, but men get a lot of it because, you know, again, they're often just beaten up or called names very young when they're so tender that we kind of men often are taught to build this veneer, I don't care. I'm not weak, I'm not vulnerable. Which means they can't give themselves what they need when they need it most. Yeah, but again, whether you're a firefighter, they're teaching this in the va thank goodness. Because when you're going through tough stuff, showing up for yourself, asking, what is it that I need? Being helpful, shaming yourself, it's like the worst thing you can do if you want to be strong. Interestingly, people raised as women have the opposite problem, and they're not allowed to be as fierce. We don't really like fierce women. That Kamala, she was a little ambitious, wasn't she? You know, think about it, right? If a woman's fierce, it's like we have these negative reactions. It's perhaps not as strong as the reaction against men being tender, but it's still there, Right? And so women need to learn how to say no, even though people really don't like it. Anger. When, when a man gets angry, people are more likely to believe him. Oh, he's so passionate. He must be. I believe him. He's so passionate. Women, women, woman who's angry, it's like, oh, she's crazy. I don't believe her. You know, so we're socialized out of these things, sadly. And again, that's why self compassion is radical, is saying, you know, society may Tell me this, but is that true for me? What is true for me, I'm going to find out for myself.
- [44:08]
C
I love how you said for men, like being not being self compassionate is making you less strong than it's actually
- [44:14]
A
making you strong without a shadow of a doubt. I mean, we got the data. We have the data. When you're depressed, right. For instance, if you have panic attacks, for instance, or if you can't cope, if you get overwhelmed, you burn out, you are not going to be strong. Being able to say, what is it that I need? Of course I have needs. I'm a human being. How can I help myself in this moment that is going to. How to kind of show up with strength and support. You know, the thing I think men are really good at, especially working with sports teams, is bonding. Like, like if you look with a football team, they are so there for each other or, you know, a lot of male bonding in group settings, men know how to be that strong, supportive ally. They know it, they're taught it, they're really good at it. And so if these give themselves permission to be that with themselves, you know, they already know how to do it. That's a good thing. They already know how to do it. It's just giving yourself permission. Yeah. To do, to do it inwardly as well. Oh, and by the way, when I taught the, I taught the UT Austin Longhorns men's basketball team, self compassion. Shaka Smart, he used to be the coach here and he was really an early adopter. I didn't even call it self compassion. I just called it inner strength training. That's what it is, inner strength training. It is, it's inner strength training.
- [45:34]
C
I love how you did that. That was a good little flip. I would have definitely been invested into inner strength training just hearing it.
- [45:39]
A
There's nothing special about the word. If the word self compassion turns you off, dump, it doesn't matter.
- [45:44]
B
Inner strength training. Love that. Well, what's one practical exercise that you could share with us when someone is just absolutely stuck in self criticism?
- [45:54]
A
Yeah. So I'm going to kind of give you a blend of two. And I mentioned it before, don't underestimate the power of touch. Because again, what happens, we're in self criticism, we're in sympathetic nervous system mode. Our cortisol's up, we're inflamed, we aren't thinking straight. As human beings, we are designed to interpret touch as a signal of care. You know, think about it before we have language. The main way parents communicate safety to Their children is through touch. So finding some sort of touch that feels not too awkward, you know, that feels good. It may be something more obvious like that, or maybe it's like a fist of like strength with this. Or maybe it's your face or hug, or maybe it's just like folding your arms in a way. Maybe you aren't even touching yourself. Maybe you're petting your dog or something. But some sort of touch. That's the best place to start because the research shows you're actually, you know, going into parasympathetic mode. You're allowing your body to calm down through touch. So that's step one. In other words, work with your nervous system. It's there. Why not make, make the most of it, hack the nervous system. And then very easy thing to do is just to say, what would I say to a really good friend, my best friend right now if they're in the exact same situation I was in? If they're your friend, you probably wouldn't say to them what you're saying to yourself. You know, there's three ways in. You can either, you know, talk to yourself in a kind way, you can imagine that you're talking to your friend and do a U turn, or you can imagine what would a really good friend. Or it doesn't even have to be a friend. Maybe it's, maybe it's Jesus, maybe it's, you know, it can be. Or maybe what would Yoda say? I mean, what would an ideally compassionate person say to me right now? So we do a little perspective takings because again, we know what compassion feels like and sounds like. So we just need to call it up because it's not our habit. Our brain isn't wired to do that naturally just to say if you're busy. A study came out of UC Berkeley last year that showed 20 seconds a day of some touch, plus a few supportive words done for a month is enough to significantly raise self compassion levels. I don't care how busy you are,
- [48:09]
C
you have 20 seconds, 20 seconds a day.
- [48:12]
A
Just when you're going to the bathroom. If you use that as your self
- [48:14]
B
compassion break, you know, that's where affirmations come into place. And just speaking affirming things over your
- [48:20]
A
life, affirmations can be good. The problem with affirmation comes in is if you're saying something that you don't believe. Like in every day and every way, I'm getting stronger and stronger. I mean, at my age, that's not true actually, you know, so if you have an argument with yourself, they can actually backfire. But if the affirmation is something like that is true, like you're worthy no matter whether or not you succeed or fail, you know, I'm here for you. As long as the affirmation is something that you believe and that is true and isn't. Yeah. Isn't like papering over reality. Yeah, exactly. But language is powerful, especially when combined with a little physical touch. And by the way, some people like movement. Oh, my son, Jojo, you know what my son does? He listens to music. He has specific songs, like his sad song Xingxia song, and it works really well for him. So, you know, you can find a way that works for you.
- [49:17]
C
He's a music baby. I said my son loves music. He learns a lot through music. He's learned Spanish and English through music. Wow. Yeah, he has his little. We call it the Joey Rock. He has his little dance. He does song.
- [49:34]
A
Sometimes people like to move as a way of soothing or comforting themselves. So just the right. The best way to practice self compassion is whatever works for you.
- [49:41]
C
I love that. Definitely. If you're tuning in right now. Right. I needed that in the comment section. If you needed to know that, all you needed was 20 seconds a day of touch to help with your self compassion. And make sure you also hit that subscription button while you drop that in the comments. Now, here on the For Good podcast, Christian, we always say we're measured by what we do, not what we have. How does self compassion shift how we measure ourselves?
- [50:07]
A
Well, it actually, we don't stop. We stop measuring ourselves and we start being ourselves. All right, so we don't. We don't need to measure our worth. I mean, that's not to say we don't want to measure, for instance, what do I value? What do. What do I want? What force do I want to be in the world? We think about it, it's like constructive criticism. But we give up the agenda of trying to evaluate our own worth. We are, we are intrinsically worthy just because we are, we're human beings. And then anything else is about being the best human beings we can be, you know, it's. It's really. It's really powerful because when you don't take yourself so personally and your worth comes from, like the larger whole, you know, and you could get spiritual at this. And for me, it is also a spiritual practice. You know, compassion comes from the whole. The fact that we are all this larger whole, you know, and that's where our worth comes from. And the idea that we're separate individuals is really kind of a lie taught to us by our culture. We are so interconnected. And that's really, in my mind, what our worth comes from. And having said that, each of us is a beautiful individual expression of the whole that's unique and beautiful. And so we want to allow that individual expression to be all that it's meant to be, to fulfill our potential, you know, in whatever way that looks like. The way that looks for my son is going to be radically different than the way it is, you know, for me, where we're all unique individuals.
- [51:36]
C
I love it. This is great. We are all definitely unique individuals.
- [51:40]
A
It's just a matter of being authentic.
- [51:42]
C
Yes.
- [51:42]
A
And by the way, self compassion leads to authenticity. It's what is the force that allows you to be your true self.
- [51:48]
C
I love that, you know? Yeah, I would build on that, but I think you really said it perfectly. Like when you do have self compassion, you do show up as your true self. And being your true self is the most freeing feeling in the world.
- [52:02]
B
So if someone is listening, that has been their harshest critic for their entire life or, you know, for years. What would you want them to understand about starting over with themselves?
- [52:14]
A
Yeah. So again, first understand that being critical, it's nature's way of trying to keep us safe. It's your way of trying to keep yourself safe. In other words, like that the inner hidden motivation of self criticism is actually a good one because you just want to be safe. So kind of starting there. So you don't want to beat yourself up once you realize that you're beating yourself up. But then know that you know compassion is your birthright. You already know how to do it again with other people or at least with animals or there's someone in your life that you can be compassionate toward. The template is already there. It's not rocket science. It's just about kind of remembering, especially when you feel threatened, that there's an even better way to feel safe. And that's through the safety of giving yourself compassion. And there's a lot of help out there. I mean, the last 15 years I've been all about finding very easy, practical ways for people to be more self compassionate. So, so the help is there. It's actually not that difficult. 20 seconds a day is enough. You know, it's just a matter of choosing do you want to cause yourself more suffering or not? Or do you want to help try to alleviate your suffering? That's what self compassion is.
- [53:27]
C
As we close this out, this has been an amazing conversation, Christian. You know, you've been doing the research for the past obviously 20 years and you really are making a difference. So before we get out of here, obviously I like and we like to give people their four good flowers. No, they're not real flowers. They're words of encouragement. But we want to give you some words of encouragement and say thank you for everything you're doing, not only for yourself, but for the community. You are truly showing people how to love themselves properly. And I think that's super important in this day and age and in this world. We always are so compassionate with others. We always show up for others. We always make sure that we're strong for others. But then when it comes to ourselves, we don't usually use that same motto. And you are out here showing people that the same way you show up for others, you must show up for yourself so that you can continue to show up for others in the most compassionate way. Because being in your most self best compassionate way is the truest way to being yourself. I would say that's something that I definitely learned from here. So thank you for these kind words, thank you for the past 20 years of research and thank you for continuing to show us easy and practical ways to be self compassionate. Vanessa, did you want to add to those flowers? Did you want to add a little rose in there?
- [54:36]
B
Yeah, absolutely. I just want to say thank you for sharing your wealth of information with us. I related so much and I know our viewers will appreciate learning a little bit more how to be compassionate with themselves because it really does make all a difference. And just want to thank you for coming and sharing with us today.
- [54:53]
A
All right, with some flowers back. Thank both of you for this great podcast and actually spending the time to talk about these issues. Not everyone does. So you're helping your community and the larger world just be better.
- [55:06]
C
Before we get out of here, you want to let people know where they can find you and anything you have coming up that you may want them to know about.
- [55:11]
A
Yeah. So the easy, easiest way to find me, just Google Self compassion. You find me@selfcompassion.org I've got a lot of like you can take the Self Compassion scale that I developed if you want. You can a lot of free resources, guided exercises, practices if you want to go further. I've got workshops, I have books, I've got a community you can join. So again, help is there if you need it and I'd say that's probably the best place to start.
- [55:37]
C
SelfCompassion.org SelfCompassion.org Help is there. Thank you so much Christian. Make sure you guys are watching. If you guys are watching listening to, hit that subscribe button. Leave some comments in the comment section. Let us know what you thought about this episode. Also, give us a thumbs up if you really like this episode. I really enjoyed this episode. I know my co host Vanessa really enjoyed this episode. We will see you guys all next time on the 4Good podcast where we focus on the good, never the bad, and we're measured by what we do, not what we have. Till next time guys. It's your guy, JoJo Simmons.
- [56:09]
B
It's Vanessa Simmons.
- [56:11]
C
Christian Neff. Peace.
- [56:12]
B
Bye.