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For Good
From Sesame Street to Safe Spaces: Darnell Lamont Walker on Grief, Mental Health & Storytelling
00:56:20
Darnell Lamont Walker is an Emmy Award–winning writer, filmmaker, and death doula whose storytelling spans continents, genres, and generations. He’s written for children’s shows like Karma’s World, Blues Clues & You, and Sesame Street —...
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- [00:00]
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Darnell Lamont Walker
It's that whole thing of like, I almost gave up. I was. I was a away from. From stopping this, and I almost gave up. But I. I'm glad I took it that extra. That extra week, that extra day. I'm glad I did that interview, regardless of the circumstances. I thought, I want to write a fairy tale. I'm. I'm like seven at the time. So I wrote this story about this kid who ran away from home. He hopped on a train and I came home from school, and my parents were sitting in the living room reading this thing, like, nervous. They were anxious. And I'm like, what's going on? What's, what's. What's happening? And they were like, oh, my God, we thought you ran away. And so my immediate thought was, oh, they thought this was real. Oh, I must be a good writer. As black folks, the injustice in the medical system has been real. But in the end, it's just, I just don't want people to be alone. I don't think anyone should be alone in the end. And at a minimum, that's what I'm going to do. When the imposter syndrome comes in, when you hear that critic in your head that says, no one wants to hear your story, like, that's where the audacity has to say, all right, cool. But I'm still going to do it. Everyone has a story, and every story deserves to be told because there's someone who's going to say that. There's someone who's going to say, I thought it was just me. Now it's not. And I can do that. I can speak out. I have a voice now.
- [01:45]
JoJo Simmons
What's going on, everybody? It's your guy, JoJo Simmons. And this is the For Good podcast where we focus on the good, never the bad. And we're measured on what we do, not what we have today. I'm sitting down with Darnell Lamont Walker, a writer, filmmaker and healer who tells the stories that matter. An Emmy nominated writer, Karma's World, he's worked on Blue's Clues and you'd Work it Out, Wombats, Rublin Crew and more and shaping stories for the next generation before his work goes far behind entertainment. In his documentary Outside the House, he explores black mental health. And as a deaf doula, he helps people navigate life's final chapter with care and dignity. Now he's bringing those experiences to the page in his upcoming book, never say Goodbye, offering a deeply personal look at lost in love and what it means to truly show up for others. What's going on, Darnell? Thank you for being here with me, brother.
- [02:41]
Darnell Lamont Walker
Yeah, brother, thanks for having me. I really appreciate this.
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JoJo Simmons
Of course, of course. You know, I think this is important. I think what you do in your space and your field isn't talked about enough, isn't explored enough. And I think this is going to be a great conversation. So let's get right into it. I know we got a little bit of a timing thing here, so let's get right into it. Let's talk about your early life and your inspiration. Let's start at Sesame Street. By the way, before we get into that, my son, 3 years old, loves Elmo. That's his guy. Gotta let him know that I spoke. Oh, that's his guy right there.
- [03:15]
Darnell Lamont Walker
Yeah, Elmo's everybody's guy, man. Like, we all love Elmo, right? Like, oh, man, that's his guy. Elmo. Absolutely, man. Yeah, let's. No, yeah, just to jump on that. I'm sorry. Go for it. Go for it.
- [03:31]
JoJo Simmons
Oh, yeah, yeah. I was gonna ask a question, but if you want to speak, if you had any Elmo stories before we get into it, no problem. But I do have a question. I was gonna ask you about the Sesame Workshop writers room. And how did that change your career? What is that? And how did it change your career?
- [03:46]
Darnell Lamont Walker
No, absolutely. You know, I've been a writer my whole life. But my goal, you know, everyone, all the writers, all the actors, all the folks who want to work in TV and film, you know, we moved to LA with that. You know, we all have that same story. We. We packed our car, drove out there with this dream. And my goal, I was going to go into writing primetime television drama, maybe some comedy. And one day you have that hustle, that struggle. You do it forever. One day, while I was living over in South Africa, actually, after kind of thinking that Hollywood might not be the move left to Go to South Africa to make more film, more social justice films. And someone says, hey, Sesame writing room is. Look, they're looking for talent, they're looking for writers. And I thought, you know, I don't know if I want to write for kids. I never really thought about writing for kids. And I applied, though, thinking, hey, it's a, it's a step. It's something that, it's something that they'll say, no, but I can at least say I applied and got in and, and was surprised I got in. But day one of being in the writing room realized, like, oh, I actually love this. Why haven't I been here this whole time? And so it really changed the trajectory of, of what I wanted. It was that, that moment, that wow moment I think we all get to. I hope we all get to have in life where it's like, oh, wow, I love this. This is the purpose, this is the thing. This is what I should have been doing all along and really just hit the ground there. I went through the Sesame street writing room that was about two months. And then they teach you everything there is to know or everything they could possibly teach you about writing for kids. And I took that and went to Blues Clues and Karma's World, like, right after that, and it kind of just changed. Changed my life, man. I mean, it was, it just blew up from there. So I, I, I, I'm grateful for them for helping me realize that.
- [05:44]
JoJo Simmons
That's dope. So you were in Amsterdam when you got the news about Sesame Street? Take us back to that moment. What were you up to then? And how did it make, how did it feel to take. How did I feel to take the next step from that moment from there, from Amsterdam, when you get the call about Sesame Street? How did it feel like? What was, what was that, what was that next step feeling like for you?
- [06:05]
Darnell Lamont Walker
Oh, man, y' all have done y' all research. I appreciate that. Yeah, so I was on my. I love that. Yeah, we were, I was there. I. So short version of the story. I started a travel company years ago where I take people on secret trips around the world. And so it was about 10, 10 of us traveling, road tripping through Europe. We were in Amsterdam. It was about 1am the only thing open to eat was McDonald's. We're on the way to McDonald's. I'm opening my email and I'm like, oh. Because I just interviewed maybe a week and a half or two weeks before that, while I was in Portugal with no WI Fi, the wind was blowing I'm outside. James Brown is playing on like this loudspeaker. And so I'm thinking my interview is trash. I'm like, they hated it, you know, but the conversation was good when I could hear them. So I'm like, ah, I won't get it. It's fine. And the email comes in and I'm like, yo, McDonald's or me, McDonald's or me, everybody. You know, it was like this moment of just, wow. Especially after, you know, years of grinding. Like every writer I know, every actor I know in la, years of grinding, and it's like, I finally made it, I got it. This is a, this is a foot in a very real door that could actually lead to something big. And. And so it was huge. That pursuit of happiness moment. Like, you know that, that.
- [07:33]
JoJo Simmons
Yes, yeah, yeah, yes. Like you said, I've had those moments before. And I pray everybody does get those moments or at least one of those moments, because that moment is great. When you really put the work in for such a long time, you're grinding and you have a goal and you don't know when that outcome is gonna be a win, but you know, you're just going for the win. And then when that win finally comes, it feels so amazing because, you know, you put the work in for that win. Nothing feels better than a hard worked win. You know what I mean?
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Darnell Lamont Walker
Oh, my God.
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JoJo Simmons
Yeah, man.
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Darnell Lamont Walker
It's like that, it's that whole thing of like, I almost gave up. You know, it's like I was, I was a step away from, from stopping this and I almost gave up. But I'm glad I took it that extra, that extra week, that extra day. I'm glad I did that interview, regardless of the circumstances. So, yeah, that's exactly what that is.
- [08:19]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, I love it. So you've been writing stories since you were a kid. What pulled you into storytelling? And when did you realize you were good and wanted to pursue it as a career? Obviously you said Sesame. You know, the whole Sesame street thing that, you know, that really made you realize that's where you wanted to be. But what pulled you into storytelling from the beginning? How did you realize that you were good at it?
- [08:41]
Darnell Lamont Walker
Oh, man, I was watching the Cosby show and I don't know if you remember the episode, I don't know if you watched it, but if you watched it. There was this episode where we, you know, we were all raised on that. And there was an episode where Rudy Huxtable wrote a, wrote a fairy tale and the family acted it out and I thought, I want to write a fairy tale. I'm like seven at the time, but I'm like, I want to write a fairy tale. And my family, maybe they'll act it out. So I wrote this story about this kid who ran away from home. He hopped on a train and went far away. And I came home from school, and my parents were sitting in the living room reading this thing and, like, nervous. They were anxious. And I'm like, what's going on? What's. What's. What's happening? And they were like, oh, my God, we thought you ran away. And so my immediate thought was, oh, they thought this was real. Oh, I must be a good writer. And.
- [09:34]
JoJo Simmons
Wow.
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Darnell Lamont Walker
And from that moment, it was like, I gotta keep writing. Like, this is what I'm good at. And I did it. And teachers and it was this mo. I always talk about how when people can recognize something good, they get behind it and they support it. And so I had, like, these teachers and these family members who were, like, listening. We don't know how to tell you how to write or what to do for you, but we're going to support this and we're going to find all the resources we possibly can to make this thing happen if this is what you want to do. And it just took off from there. I had teachers who, you know, introduced me to poetry, into theater, and then, you know, eventually film and television. And I'm so grateful for them, so grateful for my folks who said, we don't know, but we'll drop you off at this summer academy that teaches kids how to write. So, you know, and. And it went from there. And, you know, you get to Hollywood and then you're thrown into the fire, and it's like, all right, create something. And it's like, oh, cool. But I had this, you know, this long background of creating, and it worked out. But, yeah, started at 7. Still going. Still love it. Yeah.
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JoJo Simmons
That just goes to show you how support goes a long way, even from young. When you're doing something and you're not quite sure what the path is, your parents may not be quite sure what the path is, but they're like, hey, we're going to support you. We're going to. We're going to go with what you want to, you know, what you want to do, as long as you're doing something positive. I think a lot of people got to understand a lot of these young cats need a lot of support for them to see bigger than what they actually are and bigger than what they actually are doing. You know what I mean? Support goes a long way. So I just wanted to say that little tidbit, because that's what I heard for your story, is that you had a good support system that said, hey, I don't know what this is. I don't know where it's going to lead you to, but we're gonna. We're gonna support it. We're gonna see it through with you. So I think that was really dope of your people's man. So. No, it really was loving how you got the writing. And I want to talk about you writing for children's television. So you've written for Blue's Clues and you Karma's World and Work It Out Wombats. What's it like inside of children's television?
- [11:34]
Darnell Lamont Walker
Oh, man, it's. You know, I get to use my imagination. I get to recall those times, especially with, like, these shows that I've chosen to write for, you know, one of Lila in the Loop. And it's so amazing because I get to just think back on the moments I had with my cousins and the moment I had growing up in, like, you know, the neighborhoods with my friends and running barefoot and hopping on bikes and riding, like, 100 miles out, you know, with our parents, like, well, I don't know, but they're good. They're good, you know, and really getting to hold on to those moments, to the imagination that I have, and working with people who love what they do, I think that's a. That's really been a game changer for me. I came into Hollywood, like, my first foot in the door was in casting, you know, strangely enough. And people love their job, but it was a different environment and, you know, different. Different attitudes, different tones. So coming into kids writing was like, one, we love what we do. We love that we get to hold on to our imagination. We love that we get to play all day. And I. I love that about it. I get to play all day. I. To think about my grandma and these things that she used to say to me, and I get to share that with kids because, I mean, if we're being honest, kids, kids are, you know, they're the most important. They're going to grow up. And we all grew up watching these shows, and, like, I watched the Cosby show, and they got me into writing. So I'm hoping I could create something that kids say, oh, I watched Working Out Wombats, or I watched, you know, Karma's World. And this episode really got me thinking about this. And I grew up and Became this because of that. And so I really get to bring that to kids. And I love that about writing for kids. That's my favorite thing.
- [13:20]
JoJo Simmons
I love that you're teaching kids. You're able to teach kids through your writing, through, you know, cartoon episodes or shows. So really love that. How do you balance making a fun show while also teaching kids something real?
- [13:35]
Darnell Lamont Walker
Oh, that's the trick. You know, it's like you have a million rules and you have a curriculum you have to follow, but if you can, it's all about bringing in that. That play and that imagination and having a team around you that you can bounce these ideas off, where if I don't have it, I know that, you know, Kareem has it. Or I could call, you know, Mike and be like, hey, Mike, I have this idea, but I can't really. It doesn't seem fun yet. What can I do? And so it's having that team around, but making sure you hit those points. Because there are these rules that says, oh, we can't do this, we can't do this, we can't do this. You know, we GRE up watching Bugs Bunny, and I don't think there were any rules in these shows. I. We've seen, you know, Elmer Fudd pull a. Pull a gun out, you know, and. And pointed at the man, pointing at Bugs Bunny face, you know, like, yeah, could you. Yeah, you. You have. You got a kid now. Could you imagine a cartoon now where someone pulls a gun out? You know what I mean? And it's like, nah, we. So we. We've come so far away from that, thankfully, but it's like, how can we still create the laughs? How can we still create the fun? And I. Working in a team environment is absolutely incredible for that. And it just stretches you. It says, you know, with a million things in place, how funny can you be? You know, you personally. And it's like, oh, okay, let me stretch myself. So then I gotta go out. And actually, I love. I love my nieces, my nephews. My son's 20 now, but I have, like, you know, all these little people in my family who I can still talk to, I can still play with and say, oh, that's how I can do it. That's how I can do it. Kids have been the greatest consultants for me since the beginning of this children's television journey.
- [15:24]
JoJo Simmons
That's super dope. Like, you basically inspired by just being amongst your family and the youngins in your family and being able to carry that to the youngins across the globe. That's. That's really cool. So you once asked yourself, how can I create content that keeps kids from becoming like the adults I was helping rebuild? Can you elaborate on that? How did that change the way you approach storytelling for kids?
- [15:47]
Darnell Lamont Walker
Yeah, so when I wrote that, that was more so talking about me as a death doula and working with these adults who are so afraid to talk about death, they're afraid to force their own mortality. They've lost touch with their imagination. They've forgotten how important it is to play and to dream and to. To go, you know, far and, And. And stray away from, you know, things. And so I get to create for these kids who I'm hoping don't turn into the adults that I'm working with who are afraid of all of these things. It's like, okay, cool. If we can. If I can just talk about grief and talk about death in these episodes, kids will grow up and have these conversations like, I. I love now, like, you know, we're at the bar, at the bars now, or at the lounges or the happy hours or the brunches, and we're talking about who our therapists are like, oh, who. Who are you saying? What are you talking about? Our parents weren't doing that. And so it's like, oh. Because thankfully, there are resources that we are able to see on TV that's like, oh, we've normalized this. And so I'm hoping to normalize grief and death and dying and everything that surrounds it for kids so they don't turn into these folks who are afraid, who die with regrets, who die, you know, not having not lived the life that they. That they wanted, that they hope to have, because all that carries grief, too. And so I'm hoping to prevent that as much as possible.
- [17:21]
JoJo Simmons
So I hear you talk about being a death doula, and I want to get into that a little bit. For those who don't know what exactly is a death doula. And what do you do?
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Darnell Lamont Walker
Yeah, so a death doula is someone who is there as a companion, there to help you as much as possible get the death that you want, to help you prepare for death, to help you maintain the dignity in death, maintain your dignity in death, help you get closure, create a legacy, all of these things. And, And I do all of those things. I, you know, people who haven't been diagnosed who seemingly have, you know, a whole life to live, many, many years left, I help them, you know, one face their mortality and say, listen, one day this is going to happen. Are you. Is Your family prepared? Are you prepared? If you die today, what do you. What needs to happen? Or how do you want to die? For people who are, you know, actively dying and maybe on their deathbed, or maybe they have a little bit of time, it's asking that same question, how do you want to die? I come in, you know, at the end, and because so many of us don't want to talk about death, they've never been asked this, although the family's known that these. That the person was dying for months sometimes, you know, and they don't want to have that hard conversation. So I come in for the hard conversations and say, how do you want to die? You know, what. What do you need to leave behind? What stories do you want us to tell when you're gone? How do you want the funeral to go? Do you want to be buried? Do you want to be creamed? You know, all of these questions, it's advocating for them in the. In the medical system. You know, as. As black folks, we've been. You know, the injustice in the medical system has been real, and it has. It's changed, but there's still. There's still times when I have to come in and fight with the doctor or whatever that is. But so I do all of these things, but in the end, it's just. I just don't want people to be alone. I don't think anyone should be alone in the end. And I. At a minimum, that's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna be there to make sure you're not alone when it's time to die.
- [19:43]
JoJo Simmons
Wow. That's powerful. So you've been sitting with the dying since you were a kid. Can you tell us about your experiences with your cousin Maine, then, as a hospice volunteer, when did you realize that it was your calling?
- [19:58]
Darnell Lamont Walker
Yeah. So with Maine, I was. Excuse me, that was in 94. I was 12. And I didn't know him well. He hadn't lived in our hometown while I was growing up, and he was dying. It was during the aids, like, when AIDS was. Was like, taking folks out, you know, and. But also at the time, a lot of families were very ignorant to what was, what it was doing and what it was. And so when he wanted to come home to Virginia to die, a lot of folks turn their backs. But my grandmother, who was one of the most amazing people I'd ever, you know, had the chance of being loved by, she said, you come to my house. You're my nephew. You come here. I'll take care of you. You can sleep here, you can eat here. I'll feed you. And I was always at my grandma's house. I was one of those kids. I loved being there. And so my mom was like, well, I'm not going to keep you from going up there. My mom had already taken care of one cousin who died, so she had no fears about it. And so it was me and my grandmother, you know, sitting with him, sharing stories, listening to his stories about, you know, the time he had away, feeding him, laughing with him. I'm telling him stories. And at 12, it's just. I didn't think much about it. It was just, this is what families do for family, you know? And. Yeah, and then the following year. And he died that year, not long after that. But the following year, I was. I had friends who were getting their works. Their work permits, and they were getting these jobs at Burger King and Hardee's and McDonald's, and I was still a little too young. And so I found a volunteer job at a local hospice. Not because it was hospice, it was just because that was the only job I could possibly get. And I'd be up there, and the people would. I'd hang up calendars in the room. You know, my job was like to hang up calendars and make toast and do arts and crafts with some of the patients. But they would call me into their room and say, hey, we. Could you just sit with me? You know, my family, they don't come around. Could you just play cards? Or you want to hear a story? And I'm sitting in there, 13 years old, like, yeah, yeah, I want to hear it all. I love talking to people. I love hearing people's stories. And. And I just did that year after year. You know, that same year, 13 of my first. Was the first time I lost a friend. She died in a car accident. And I remember the school at the time was just like, hey, if you need to talk to a guidance counselor, the doors are open. Otherwise, classes will go on. And so we didn't really have grief education or anything around it. So at recess, I'm standing outside with friends, like, hey, maybe we should talk about Pam. Maybe we should share our stories about Pam and really just support each other. And we did. And, you know, years went by. I had people die, family members died, and me and my grandmother were there, or me and whoever. And then I was sharing these same stories about 10 years ago with a friend who was a hospice nurse. And she says, oh, you know, it sounds like you're a death Doula. And I had never heard the term before. And I was like, oh, let me look this up. So I'm looking it up, and suddenly it just clicked. And I'm like, oh, this feels right. This feels like what I'm supposed to do. This is the thing. Like, I'm. I'm good. I'm good at writing, and writing is cool. I always thought that was, like, the purpose, but then writing suddenly felt like, oh, this is just the thing I do. Helping people transition or find joy at the end or move through grief is the purpose. This is what I'm supposed to do with my life. And so about. Yeah, that was 10 years ago. And it all just clicked. And I've been leaning in ever since, learning as much as I can, talking to as many people as I can. I can bring up death in any conversation. I remind people all the time, like, hey, listen, you're gonna die. How do you want this thing to go? Are you talking about it with your family? Are you talking about it with your friends? And it's been great.
- [23:51]
JoJo Simmons
Wow. Seems like the universe drew you to it every chance it could get. And you answered the call. You answered the call. That's amazing. Your up and coming book, Never can say Goodbye, Harper One explores what you've learned in this space. How did the book deal come together? Did you go after it or did. Did it come find you? Like, how did that happen?
- [24:13]
Darnell Lamont Walker
Yeah, it's interesting. I wrote an article for LA Times about two years ago. Now I think about being a black death doula, what it means to be a black man, to be a death doula today.
- [24:27]
JoJo Simmons
And.
- [24:30]
Darnell Lamont Walker
My agent, who wasn't my agent at the time, this woman hits me up Lane Clark and says, hey, would you. Have you ever considered writing a book about this? And I'm thinking, yeah, I mean, it would be interesting. I'm. I'm down for it. If. If you think it's a good idea, I'm here for it. And we start putting, you know, little things together. She's like, write three chapters. Send me what you have, and. And an introduction of yourself and maybe some sample stories. So I shoot it over to her. She calls me. She's like, hey, can you jump on a call with Harper? And I'm like, yeah, we could do this next week. She's like, no, today. I'm like, oh, all right. Yeah, okay. So we jump on a call, and they're like, listen, Angela, the. The editor over there, she says, listen, I've. I've read a lot of books this year. But I. I haven't cried this much in a long time. It's like, I want it. Let me see what the team says she had. She's like, give me two weeks. She hit me up maybe three days later. And she's like, we want it. Here's an offer. And my agent's like, okay, well, we have a couple other people we want to hear from first. She's like, okay, well, here's another offer. Can you just take it off the table? And I'm like, take it off the table. Let's go. Let's run this and take it off the table right now. Yeah, yeah. And. And, yeah, we've been going ever since. I just, you know, sent in my final edits. Things are good. Hoping for an early, early 26 release. And, yeah, just. And it's been just a blessing, you know, I'm just glad to be able to share the stories of some of the people I've worked with, and not just, like, their stories, but what it mean, what it could mean for other people, you know, and who are. Who have very similar stories. It's like, how can I move through the grief? Or folks who ask the question, like, oh, you know, my father died a couple years ago, but I feel like I haven't grieved yet, or, you know, what. What should me and my husband be doing? We have three kids, and, you know, when my mom died, the family fell apart because no one had any answers to anything. What can I do to prevent that for my kids? And it's like, oh, well, I've. I've dealt with these situations. Here's how they could possibly help you. And so I'm just glad to be able to share it on a. On a bigger, you know, stage or higher level.
- [26:54]
JoJo Simmons
So excited for you. You said audacity got you through writing this book. How do you tap into that audacity? When you get imposter syndrome and those 4am doubts creep in, I think that's.
- [27:08]
Darnell Lamont Walker
When you know the audacity has to come in. It's like when the imposter syndrome comes in. When you hear that critic in your head that says, listen, maybe no one wants to hear your story. No one. You know, this isn't original. There are five other books out there about this. You have to say, okay, yeah, if. Even if that's all true, I'm still going to do it anyway. Like, that's where the audacity has to say, all right, cool. But I'm still gonna do it. It's still. That's Fine. And because I think, like, I heard DJ Jazzy Jeff say something recently, and I'm not gonna give a direct quote, but he was basically saying, like, if it's in there, it has to come out. He's like, I don't want to die with any of this. And he was like, even if I put an album out, that's trash, I'll use that to sweep up, you know, the dust in my room. But, you know, I have to get it out. And I think that's what the audacity is. It's like, no, listen, it has to come out or it's going to eat me alive. You know, I. I have to write or it's. If I don't write, it's going to eat me alive. And so I have to say, all right, cool. Even if my writing is bad, even if I feel like a phony, even if. Whatever, it has to make its way out. And so it's just saying. Every time you hear that voice, just saying, all right, but it still got. It still has to come out. Because, again, you know, I met people's bedside who were saying, you know, I. I was living for. I was listening to this critic in my head, and I never put this book out that I wanted to put out. And I think it could have changed the world. And now I have maybe, you know, three days left on this earth, you know, and I had a friend die recently who says, you know, I didn't get to do all the things that I wanted to do, you know, when I met his bedside. And I'm like, man, you know, and I'm like, listen, if there's anything you need me to carry on, let me know. Anything that I could possibly do. And so I'm, you know, just telling his story. And so we have to have that to keep from becoming so regretful and so angry and so unforgiving of ourselves in the end. But, yeah, just say, you know, cool. All right, cool. I can't write cool. My grammar's poor. Cool. I'm putting it out anyway because, you know, my audacity was born in watching tv, you know, reading books, watching different things or seeing different things and saying, this isn't that good, but they did it anyway. You know, I think that's what. That's what made the Muppet. That's what made the Muppets so good. They weren't good at anything. They like. They were. They were mediocre at everything, but they still did it. And we watched it and we could relate, and we were like, oh, that's us. And then somehow we forgot it. We forgot how to play, and just say, oh, I'm playing. I'm putting it out there. I don't care. Whatever, whatever. I'm just gonna do it. And so we have to tap back into that.
- [30:00]
JoJo Simmons
Miss every shot. You don't take the synopsis of that one. Sure.
- [30:04]
Darnell Lamont Walker
Oh, yeah.
- [30:05]
JoJo Simmons
Talking about death, I think it ties into a lot of mental health things. So I wanted to ask you. I see that you started tackling black mental health back in 2017 with your documentary Outside the House, way before it was a mainstream conversation. What made you want to take that on?
- [30:25]
Darnell Lamont Walker
Yeah, it's real. In 2015, right after Freddie Gray was killed in Baltimore, I was leaving to go to Europe for a festival unrelated to Freddie Gray. But I was going to a festival, and a friend says, oh, what are you going to Europe for? To seek asylum? And I thought, you know, maybe actually. And I had this broken camera and a cell phone. So I'm. I'm going through Europe, and I'm talking to people saying, hey, listen, if I wanted to come to the. If I wanted to come to your country and leave the U.S. because of what's happening to black folks in the U.S. would you take me in with open arms? How would you feel about that? And, you know, just getting the answers. I came home, and the short version is I made a film, put it into some festivals. But while making this film and talking about the need to leave such a hateful place at the. You know, and such a place that was just so hard for us, mental health kept coming up in that. In that work while I was in Europe. And I thought, oh, well, the next thing I. I do has to be about mental health, because we're not talking about that. Like, no one's having this conversation. No one that I'm around. And so when it came time to make another film on purpose, because the first one was on accident, but when it came time to make an intentional film, it had to be about black mental health. Why we aren't first in line when since being in this country, we've at least. At least had to deal with stress and a level of anxiety that no one should have to live with. And so it's. You know, why aren't we seeking help? And I put a. I put a thing on Facebook one day and said, hey, if any. If any of you have sought out mental health assistance or if any of you are seeing a therapist now, what made you go? And I remember it was silence for Maybe an hour. And then one person wrote something, and then someone came in and said, oh, wow, that's. That's my experience. I thought I was alone in this. And then before I knew it, the wall just started filling up. And I. Then I reached out saying, hey, can I talk to you about this? And they say, yeah. And so I would just show up, or we'd Skype or whatever that was, and I would just ask them about their mental health journey, you know, where they were on the journey, how it started, you know, what tools help them. And then I. I was living in South Africa at this time, and I remember finishing it, and I put it on YouTube, I think, or Vimeo. And I said, I'm going to leave this up for 12 hours. When I wake up, I'll take it down, but you all watch it and then let me know what you think. And I woke up and I had, I mean, no lie, like, a hundred messages in my inbox saying, please don't take this down. This literally just saved my life. And, you know, and I just thought, oh, man. And. And you get these stories of people saying, I never thought that I could see, I could go to therapy. Or I remember one woman, she's like, there's a voice in your film. You didn't have a photo or a video. It was an anonymous voice, but I know that's my brother. And I never knew. She said, we lived in the same house, and I never knew that we were going through the exact same thing. And, and, and she reached out to him, and it strengthened their relationship, and I had to leave it up. And then I started getting calls from, you know, schools of psychology saying, hey, could you come and talk to our students? And I'm like, listen, I'm not a. I'm not a therapist. I didn't go to school for. For anything related to mental health. And they're like, no, but somehow you've. You've figured out a way to be trusted by people, for them to share your stories. And that's something we haven't been able to achieve with our students. So if you could come do that. And I'm like, oh, you know, I just automatically assumed that they were teaching these things. And so it's. It really opened up a door where I. I thought I was just coming in as a. As a filmmaker who was putting something out there that hadn't been put out. And it turned into me becoming this mental health advocate that, you know, looking back, I'm like, oh, I guess I. I'd always Been, but never put that on myself. But yeah, it's been a ride and I really loved and that led to the, to the last film because then even when doing, talking about mental health, a lot of what came up was sexual assault. And so I made that, that last documentary. But yeah, I, I, we, I'm still pushing people, you know, to talk about, oh, who's your therapist? Like I said, we're, we're at happy hours and brunches now, like, oh, you know, my, I'm getting rid of my therapist, but if you have any recommendations, let me know.
- [35:07]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, yeah, so yeah, it's very true. Mental health is very important subject for me, especially for black men. I've recently been an advocate for past two years from not only myself but for others and especially black men. I think that, you know, we're taught to be, you know, tough and self reliant and it makes it kind of harder to ask for help. How would you say we would change that narrative?
- [35:36]
Darnell Lamont Walker
One, I think it's those of us who've, who've sought mental health assistance, those of us who really advocate for it. It's continuing those conversations, having those conversations with our kids. You know, my son who's in college now, I remember going to the orientation and I'm talking to the folks like, oh, so you have, you have a therapist on campus. Okay. And just, and starting those conversations early and saying, you know, listen, so by the time they're 10, it's just a touch up. By the time they're 15, it's just like a tune in, a tune up. So having those conversations early, not being afraid to have the conversations with people like older generations didn't talk about it. You know, it was, we all have our own, their whole thing was we're all a burden with something. So why would I take my problems to someone else who's also having problems? You know, that was for a lot of, a lot of those folks. And so not being afraid to go to them and saying, hey, listen, I don't know if you want to see therapist. I'm seeing someone. This is what I talk about with my therapist. Here's some information if you ever want to do it and here are ways you can do it. You don't have to show up in the place, you can just get on your cell phone and text to one or you know, hop on a FaceTime. But just putting those resources out there, sharing it as often as possible, but also getting there early. A lot of schools now, I, you know, I really applaud them for bringing in mindfulness practices. A lot of them are bringing in counselors who are trained therapists. And not just saying, you know, I know someone died and the doors are open if you need to talk, but saying, listen, this is where I'm going to be at this time. I'm going to walk around and engaging in conversation with people, but also I just put a thing out saying, you know, these are the conversations that we should start having with friends. It's, you know, if I call you my friend, if I call you my brother, I should be able to ask you, you know, if you find yourself in a dark place and you've disappeared into your home and you haven't come out in days, how do you want. What do you want me to do when you do that? And to ask them in a, in a. When you're all sitting around having a good time and it's a joyous occasion and because you can give me an answer at that time and say, this is what I would want you to do based on what I've done in the past. And, you know, saving room for that answer may change when it actually happens, but I'm going to do my best to do that. If you tell me, oh, you come, come to my house and just sit in the living room. If I'm in the room and it's dark, let me be in there. But just be at my house just in case, you know, I have a friend who calls me every so often and says, listen, if I take my life, here's who will call. Here's. Here's who will call you. And this is what I need you to do. And, you know, there's a list of things for me to do in that event. And it's like, listen, I don't want you to, but I understand, you know, and so being, understanding, listening, having those conversations with the people that we say are our friends, with our, the people we call family, not being afraid of the hard conversations because, I mean, and, and saying, you know, in. We're going to get to the joy, but let's, let's have this hard conversation and, and really get uncomfortable for a minute, and at the end of this, there will be joy, I promise you. But let's, let's have this thing real quick.
- [39:17]
JoJo Simmons
So would you say that you being a mental health advocate and all those stories kind of inspired you to do this recent retreat? You did the healing rest and embodied liberation for men of color, if you want to speak about that briefly.
- [39:31]
Darnell Lamont Walker
No. Absolutely, yes. That was. So that was with me and my co partner on that project, Danny Fluker, who. He actually came to me with the idea where we had it. It's a place called Esalen and Big Sur. And I've been teaching. I've been on faculty there for a few years doing. Talking about how we've forgotten how to play and helping people tell their stories and storytelling. So I've been doing that. And Danny came to me and said, listen, he's in. He's big on mindfulness and yoga and meditation. And he's like, listen, I would love to combine our powers and create a weekend where black men can just come and breathe. Because we're all, again, stress, anxiety, and it's just, you know, building and building and building. And I thought, absolutely. I've been trying to get folks to have. I've been trying to get access to this place for black folks for a long time. So it was like, you know, an easy yes. And we put it together, and it was one of the greatest weekend. I mean, I. You know, we imagined it, but it was so much more than we could imagine. And it was just brothers just saying, you know, yes, I do deserve to breathe. And I have been under. I am almost burned out. You know, things that we can't fully admit. You know, I have had to be the strong one. So often we hear that I got to be the strong one for the family. And so it was like a weekend where you didn't have to be the strong one. You can cry if you want to. You know, I think at some point we probably all cried that weekend and just, you know, held each other. It was like, yes, we need this more. And so it was an easy yes to have that. We definitely plan on doing more in the future, but if I. I encourage anybody, it doesn't have to be at a retreat. It doesn't. You don't have to wait, you know, six months to do it. You can call your friends. I bought a. Like, right now, I'm at a cabin in the woods of North Georgia because I wanted a place where my friends could come and just listen to the water and be in nature and do nothing. And it's been so healing for all of us to just come out and be like, yeah, I don't have to do anything but sit here and so don't wait. Just find. Find your people, find your tribe, and just do it.
- [41:48]
JoJo Simmons
So you don't really shy away from the hard stuff in your storytelling. What makes you so fearless to be able to do that?
- [41:58]
Darnell Lamont Walker
You know, no one's ever asked that. I don't know, ask a question nobody's ever asked.
- [42:06]
JoJo Simmons
Here we go.
- [42:08]
Darnell Lamont Walker
You've been asking a lot that no was asked, so I really appreciate it. But also this one, I don't know, I think because I've, because I've seen what it looks like when we don't, you know, it's never, it's never good. It looks like anger and regret and just a deep, deep sadness if we don't get to the real thing. And for me, I was having a conversation this past, this past weekend with a friend and we were just talking about like, oh, you know, like friendship. And we were saying, you know, I, I crave deep conversations. And we were talking about like just hating the chit chat. And it was like, I, I don't mind chit chat. I love chit chat. Every so often it's necessary in so many environments. But the deep conversations is where the friendships form and the relationships really build. So it's a two part thing. It's like I want to grow and I want to, I want to be so deeply connected to everyone that I meet and everyone that I love. So the hard conversations are necessary for that. But also if we don't have them, you know, Aunt so and so she dies and now the family fell apart because she was the one, she was the glue. And so we've all seen where the glue, the glue is no longer here. And now I haven't seen my cousins who I, who I grew up with in seven years or I haven't seen uncle so and so in seven years until the next funeral. You know, there was this whole meme that was like, we have to stop relying on the funeral homes to put our family reunions together. And it's like, yeah, that's real. And so we have to have these hard conversations to, to keep us, to keep us together and to keep us connected. And so that's why I don't shy away from it.
- [44:06]
JoJo Simmons
I love it. I love it. Let's speak a little bit about community on travel and creating safe spaces. So you've built safe spaces for yourself and others both inside and outside the US in your film Seeking Asylum, you explored what it means to be black in America in search for freedom elsewhere. What has travel taught you about safety, belonging and the power of creating community? Yeah.
- [44:32]
Darnell Lamont Walker
So one, when we step, when we leave America, right, we're in the rest of the world. And so we. When I'm in the rest of the world, I don't, I feel like I can One just be like, without having to be nervous. Like, it just feels like everything. Lee. Once I hit those skies, everything is left behind. The anxiety, the stress. I remember being in my first time in Amsterdam. I was walking down the street and this cop taps me on the shoulder and he's like, hey, watch out, there's a train coming. And I'm like, okay, thank you. And I move. And then like four minutes later, I'm walking, I'm like, huh? I saw I wasn't nervous when the cop tapped me on my shoulder, you know. But then I come home and a cop pulls up behind me for no reason. I'm not flashing lights or anything, or pulls up beside me or I see him walking toward me, and it feels like I got like a pocket full of, you know, pocket full of drugs. I got guns and, you know, whatever. And I'm like, oh, I tense up. And so one thing is that I, you know, I felt racism is everywhere. Like, the reality is that racism exists in everywhere. But never have I feared not come. Never have I feared not making it home. Never have I thought that my life could end here because someone doesn't like the color of my skin. My kid, I. I feel like this is a place I can raise my kids. I'm proud that I'd be proud to, if I lived here, to say that, oh, you know, this is. This feels safe. You know, I. I'm here. I'm in Georgia. Like I said, North Georgia. I lived in New York, I lived in LA, I lived in D.C. and it's like, yeah, I live here, and it's great. But in each of those places, I've had problems. I've been having run ins with police since I was nine. Since I was eight or nine, you know, and for no reason, no reason whatsoever. When I lived in LA, I drove a 987 Chevy Caprice, you know, stereotypical Miami boy, drug dealer car, whatever. I got pulled over at least twice a week. Never got a ticket. It was just, oh, we. You didn't use your. Your blinker, you know, in New York. Problems in the subway. Yeah, I went to school in Daytona Beach, Florida. Crazy. I have crazy stories. I can leave the US and not feel any of that and not have to experience that on the same level. I don't have those same. I don't, like. I don't fear that my kid will go to school. I don't. I don't fear my kid going to school. You know, like, with all the things happening at the schools, it doesn't worry me When I leave the US and it's frightening. And. And now, you know, where we are now it's kind of like it's time to go again. Where. Where's a safe place for us? I just spent three months traveling through Asia and was there like, yeah, I think this could be the next move. You know, 2016. I moved to South Africa for a few years, and it's just wanting to feel safe. I wrote a piece about the sunk cost fallacy, talking about how, you know, so. So often I tell people, hey, we should really get out of here If. If we can. Some of us, you know, it's hard for a lot of us to do, but if we have the ability to leave, we should. And people say, oh, but we've invested so much into this. And I'm like, yes, but that shouldn't be the reason we stay. That's why people stay at the crap stable in Vegas. I put so much money in. I gotta get. I know I'm gonna win eventually. And then. And then. And then they lose everything. And it's like, listen, if you can go, go. You know, don't. Don't get pulled in by that sunk cost fallacy. Like, okay, cool, you've invested a lot. Let it go. You know, or. My grandfather built this country. Yes, but if your grandfather had a choice, would he have stayed or would he have gone? You know, and so it's like having those conversations, and I think it's. If we can find safer places, and sometimes we can't leave, and sometimes it's about building safe places where you are. Like I said, my. My cabin is in the middle of the woods. No one's coming here to bother me. I don't feel anxious when I'm in this cabin. And so I invite friends to come here and. And just be here. And so it's. If you can create it elsewhere, do that. Find your people, build your safe spaces, create the love and make it just a magical, beautiful place. But if you can go, go.
- [49:09]
JoJo Simmons
I love. I love that. That was a little quotable right there at the end that I'm gonna have to chop up and put out there in a social media post. I love that.
- [49:17]
Darnell Lamont Walker
I appreciate it.
- [49:19]
JoJo Simmons
How do you decide which stories need to be told?
- [49:24]
Darnell Lamont Walker
Yeah, I mean, I don't. I just think every story. I think every story will mean something to someone. Every story needs to be told, and I really push that. That's. That's a fact. I talk to. You know, like I said, I go to the place Esalen and Big Sur A few times a year. And I teach story writing. And even for free, like, I have a Zoom call tonight with just some people from Facebook that I said, hey, if anybody wants to write with me, let's talk about writing. And so we come together, and people say, you know, people are like, you know, but what my story isn't. Isn't special. No one knows me. And I'm like, listen, I read memoirs from people all the time that I've never heard of because they have a story. Everyone has a story, and every story deserves to be told. You know, it's. It's the whole thing. Like when I did the. The mental health documentary, it was like, why did you seek mental health assistance? And then one person shared their story, and then you see, you know, 10 people jumping under that, saying, oh, my God, I thought I was alone. And so every story has to be told because there's someone who's going to say that. There's someone who's going to say, I thought it was just me. Now it's not. And I can do that. I can speak out. I have a voice now. You know, so often we've seen horrible things happen in life, and it's happened for years, and one person speaks out, and then suddenly more people speak out, and it's like, yeah, cool. You know, beautiful things have happened, and people are like, I don't know. You know, so many. So often we've. We shrink ourselves, and we feel like we have to be humble and not share our. Our joys and our good things. And so it's like, I don't want to do it. But then one person says, oh, you know, this. Look at all the good things that are happening to me. And then someone says, oh, cool, I can. I can share that. You know, I don't have to shrink myself. You know, just a small thing. I was talking to a friend recently. We were. You know, everyone. No one likes talking about money or the money they make. And I mentioned. I was like, oh, you know, hopefully I can make. You know, so we're both skirting around this thing. And then I finally just say it. And she was like, oh, I'm glad you told me how much you make. This is how much I make. And now she's the friend that we meet every week to talk about, you know, our financial goals. But these things, we have to be able to share it to find our people. It's that. That Shel Silverstein poem that's like, he had blue skin. And so did she. She kept it hid and so did he. They searched for blue their whole life through and passed right by and never knew. And it's like, if we wear these masks, we'll never find our people. And so we have to share these stories. We have to put it out there so we can find our people and not pass them by.
- [52:13]
JoJo Simmons
I love that. And I super agree on. Everyone has a story, and every story deserves to be told because there's so many stories that are so relatable to other people out there that people just feel so alone. But when that story is being told, whether it's through writing or visual, it just. It frees so many people of the feelings that they're having inside. So I super agree with that. So from research and obviously this conversation that's confirmed, you do a lot from writing, filmmaking, end of life care. How do you decide which project to take on next with all this stuff going on?
- [52:49]
Darnell Lamont Walker
It just. It's just what feels right. And you know what's crazy is, like, I do. I do a lot. I do a lot. But what they.
- [52:55]
JoJo Simmons
All.
- [52:55]
Darnell Lamont Walker
The common ground is that they are all. They all help people go from where they are to where they want to be. So they're all about transition and hopefully transitioning to joy. So everything I do is ends with people finding joy. And so I decide based on that. It's like, oh, well, what's the purpose of this project? What's. What is this project going to do for people? What is it going to do for me? And if it's not going to make me happy, if it's not going to bring joy, if it's not gonna do anything for the world, and I've been so grateful that everything that's been, like, every writing job that's been. That's come my way, every project that's come my way has been about that. And I. And I think I've created this life where people feel. They know that, and so they're like, oh, let me bring this to Darnell and see if he's interested. And I love it. And so I. I decide based on that, is it going to bring joy to somebody? Then, yeah, I'll do it.
- [53:54]
JoJo Simmons
I love it. So with all that you give to the world, how do you take care of yourself, Darnell?
- [53:59]
Darnell Lamont Walker
What.
- [54:00]
JoJo Simmons
What keeps you grounded, bro?
- [54:02]
Darnell Lamont Walker
Man Food. Man Food. Listen, I eat. I. I love food. Food and travel. I. I love cooking. I love, again, deeply connecting with people. And so that. Really, that keeps me so happy. I love being around people, but I also love to just back away and be Alone and cook in my cabin or cooking, you know, in Detroit or go into the world and just meet new people and share food with them and, and just be, you know, if it feels good, do it. I'm, I'm all about that. I, I really believe in self care. I don't neglect myself. I won't let myself be burned out. And I try to encourage others not to do that as well. So find that thing that makes you happy and find the things that bring joy and do a lot of it when you need to do a lot of it. And that's what I do. I. But food, absolutely at the top of the food. At the top of the list is food.
- [54:59]
JoJo Simmons
I love it. So last question. I know we're coming towards the end of the interview here, so for anyone listening who wants to use their creativity to make an impact, what's your advice to those people?
- [55:12]
Darnell Lamont Walker
You know, don't listen to the inner voice. Fight against that. Have the audacity to say, my, my creativity means something to me and it will mean something to someone else if the idea comes. The idea is worth seeing all the way, way through. Go for it. Don't let the inner voice stop you. Everything you can think of is worthy of, of coming out and being brought to full, like fully to into reality. So just do it. Have the audacity and collaborate. Collaborate. People are out there waiting to help you share this story. There are people with a similar story. So audacity and collaboration.
- [55:50]
JoJo Simmons
Dang, man, that was, that was dope. I hope everybody took out they. They pendant pad jotted that down. Darnell, we have came to the end of the interview. I really want to thank you again for coming out and sharing your story with me, sharing your experiences with me, sharing all your wonderful philanthropic work that you've been doing in the world. When it comes to just being a deaf doula mental health advocate, writing these great children shows that I'm sure my son has enjoyed an episode or two that you've written. He also loves some Blues clues. Really want to thank you once again for coming out. It's your guy, Jojo Simmons, everyone. This is the 4 Good podcast where we focus on the good, never the bad. Where we're measured on what we do and not what we have. Once again, thank you, Darnell. Till next time, guys. Much love, peace.
- [56:40]
Darnell Lamont Walker
Much love, peace. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.