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- [00:00]
A
I'm Kiana, and I leveled up my business with Shopify. Once I figured out that Shopify was a thing, I never turned back. I can create a site with my eyes closed. Shopify thinks ahead of us, you know, and it thinks about the customer more than anything. Every day I'm thinking about some other new business, but Shopify is doing it to me because it's so easy to use. It's like, I can't stop. I'm addicted. Start your free trial@shopify.com honoring and making our ancestors proud because they went through hell to get the right to vote. And here's the thing that everything that they went through when they faced death and they still pressed on, it wasn't for their benefit. They actually did that so that their children and their children's children could have an opportunity. We have so many of our young men that come through our education system that is made to feel as if they're not worthy, that they can never become a doctor or lawyer. And the only thing that they see is getting in the dope game or getting in a gang or whatever that gives them any sense of belonging or any sense of value. A lot of times when we see people who are incarcerated that may be aggressive, allowed, that's just a facade to hide that little boy that's inside that was told that he'll never amount to nothing. I was once a drain on society, right? And because some people didn't give up on me, I was able to transform from that into someone that's contributing and contributing so much that they thought about nominating my ark for a Nobel Peace Prize. I mean, you know, how big can you get?
- [01:36]
B
What's good, everybody? It's your guy, JoJo Simmons. And welcome back to the For Good podcast, where we focus on the good, never the bad. And we're measured by what we do, not what we have. Today I'm sitting down with Desmond Mead, civil rights activist, organizer, and executive director of the Florida Rights Restoration Coalition. Desmond is one of the key leaders Behind Florida's Amendment 4, which restored voting rights to more than 1.4 million returning citizens, one of the largest expansions of voting rights in American history. His story is one of the one of redemption, accountability, and purpose. From incarceration and homelessness to becoming a national leader for justice and democracy, Desmond works challenges how we see people punishment, and what it really means to come home and do good. Desmond Mead. Welcome to the four Good podcast, brother. Thank you for coming on and thank
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A
you for having me. Jojo. I might have to Hire you to be my intro man from now on.
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B
You know, I always love when we do an intro for our guests. They really appreciate the intros. I have to always shout out my team for helping me put my intros together, making sure that they sound really good. And obviously, we do our research on every guest we have, and we wanna make sure that we give you guys a intro worth saying, you know what I mean? Because everybody we bring on here has a laundry list of work that they have done and impact that they have created. So we make sure we try to get it all in that quick intro before we get going. But how you doing today, brother? Thank you for coming on the podcast.
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A
Listen, I am feeling blessed, man, and the day is starting out good. I'm like, I've been looking forward to sitting down and chopping it up with you, especially when we talk about really highlighting the good. And there's just so much to highlight, especially like in times like this when we're seeing a lot of bad and a lot of negativity and folks tend to lose hope. Right? So shows like yours, I think is a necessary type of show, because, believe it or not, I do believe there's a lot more good than bad, but we just don't talk about it enough.
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B
Thank you, man. And that's exactly why I started this podcast. We started this podcast, and we call it the For Good podcast, because it's a nonjudgmental space, but it's also a space where we just talk about positivity, all the good that people are doing for the community themselves. And it's not really about the financial wins, the material wins. It's more about the moral wins, you know, and that's kind of how we stick to it on the For Good podcast. So I appreciate you in those kind words. And so let's get into it before the movement or the policy and all the headlines and wins. Who is Desmond Mead as a person and what shaped you to be the man you are today?
- [04:05]
A
Wow. That's a great question, man. And I got to start back in August of 2005, and I was living in, if you want to call it living in South Florida. But I remember the day in August, I found myself standing in front of railroad tracks, waiting on a train to come so I can jump in front of that day. I was homeless. I was recently released from prison. I was addicted to drugs. The only thing I owned were the clothes on my back, and I didn't see any light at the end of the tunnel. Now, let me tell You. I was raised in a Christian home. My dad was a preacher. I'm a preacher kid. And I knew that my family didn't raise me to be in that position. But there I was that day, and I was standing there and the main thing that was going through my head was wondering what Whether or not when I jump in front of that train, was I going to feel pain or was I going to die instantly, right? And I stood there for quite some time, waiting. But God had other plans. The universe had other plans. And for some reason, that train would not come. And this is one of the busiest railroad tracks in Dade County, Florida. I mean, it leads to the Port of Miami, which is one of the largest ports on the East Coast. And then you had different, like the fruit district, garment districts that used to get supplies and everything. And the train used to be there, like every five minutes is a train. But that day a train didn't come. And I ended up crossing the tracks and I walked in a couple blocks further and I checked myself into this substance abuse treatment clearinghouse and they got me in an inpatient program that allowed me to go through a four month drug program. And. And when I emerged from that, they. I moved back into a homeless shelter. And while there, I decided to do something different, right, because you know, for any of your listeners or viewers that, that know about like drug addiction or alcohol addiction, right, that sometimes you may get clean, you may stop using the drugs, and then something will happen that caused you to pick up the drugs again and you find yourself in the worst position that you were in before. And that's just called what they call it, relapsing. And so I was scared of a relapse, man, because I've relapsed so many other times. And I figured, man, that if I relapse again, next time I probably won't be as lucky. And I'm going to end up getting that train to come. And so what I did was I always remember my mom talking about the importance of education. And so I decided to roll in one of the local colleges, and I ended up graduating at the top of my class. And my professors encouraged me to continue my education. So I pursued a bachelor's degree in public Safety management with a concentration in criminal justice. And I'm going to be real, I picked that subject because I figured since I had a lot of experience getting arrested, going to jail, appearing before judges, and getting sentenced to prison, that somehow that experience could translate into classroom success. And JoJo Guthru. It did, right? It did And I ended up graduating with highest honors. And eventually I got accepted into law school. And, you know, in 2014, May of 2014, I graduated with a Juris Doctorate degree from Florida International University College of Law. And I immediately told people I had two doctor's degree, right? A Doctor of the streets and a Doctor of Law. You know what I'm saying? And really, I mean, and that was an accomplishment. But I didn't just stop there, though, right? Because of where I came from, the journey. I mean, just coming from a point to where I wanted to end my own life, right? I had developed a deeper appreciation of life, a deeper appreciation of humanity, right? And I had dedicated my life to giving back, to making my community, my space a little bit better than how I found it, right? And because of that, I started an organization called Florida Rights Restoration coalition. And in 2018, we led that historic effort to re enfranchise or to win the voting rights back for over 1.4 million people who had previously been convicted of a felony offense. JoJo, if the story were to end there, I'll be happy. I could die a happy man. We was able to accomplish this, but the story don't end there, right? Because of the efforts. Then I went on. I was named Central Floridian of the Year. Floridian of the Year. Time magazine named me one of the 100 most influential people. Not in the country, brother, but in the world, right? The MacArthur foundation awarded me a genius fellowship, which meant that I've been telling my family I was a genius for years, and they ain't believe me. Now I got receipts. I'm a genius now, right? And then the creme de la creme was actually a couple years ago, my organization was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize by the same people who nominated Dr. Martin Luther King, right?
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B
Wow.
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A
And I say that with reverence because we see people angling, we see even presidents trying to get Nobel Peace Prize nominees. And this little old dude from around the way, from down in South Florida in the 305, that was once standing in front of railroad tracks, right, that was addicted to drugs and just released from prison, right? Got what people trying to get, right? And I was telling some folks the other day that, man, if somebody would have came to me and told me not to jump in front of a train because in a few years that I'm gonna get a law degree and I'm gonna be time 100 and Floridian of the Year, and I'm a genius fella and have my organization nominated for Nobel Peace Prize. My first reaction was to put that person in the headlock and tell me where he got that good dope he smoking. Because, you know, come on, like, you don't think that. Yeah. So I'm willing to bet, Jojo, you ain't gonna have a guest that had all those things happen to him. You know what I'm saying? I'm willing to get. I'm willing to bet that. But that is who Desmond is. And basically what it is. Man is a servant of God. That. That. That found the key, right, and understood that what my purpose was in life and it was to give back and to help create a better world for everybody and make sure that everything that I was doing was based in love, right? That love for humanity, right? That love for God and taking on this adage that when you take care of God business, he take care of yours, and you do a much better job than you can do. And that's who I am. I'm a living testimony to that man. And when anybody want to ask who does, that's me.
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B
I love it. You know, I asked everybody that question as their first question, like, who are you? What brought you to your work? And I think you explained it more than anybody. You know, you gave us everything in a nutshell, and I love to hear that. Like, that man that was once standing in front of the train tracks is now an influential man, a man that is of influence, a man that is of knowledge, a man that has totally turned his life around. So, first of all, till we get into the next questions, I want to say congratulations on your turnaround, and I'm very proud of you. Although I'm just meeting you today, I'm very proud of everything you've done, because there's somebody right now that. That's gonna be watching this or is watching it and is feeling what you were feeling, feeling like they don't wanna live anymore, feeling like they have nothing to live for. And you are a testament and a definition that you can change, things can get better, and you will come out stronger. So I love that. And speaking of you kind of coming in heavy and telling us how it all kind of came together, I know you've been very open about your past. How did the incarceration and homelessness change the way you see yourself around the world, in the world?
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A
Wow, man. That. That. That's. That's. That's a great question, Jojo. You know, I kind of look the way how I look at a lot of things now, right? Is that. And I tell folks this I think, I do believe that, that God takes us through things in order to prepare us to be of greater service, right? And so my experience of 10 years being homeless really helps me not only empathize with what's going on with the housing crisis in our country or the homeless population and how we treat those folks, right. But it also allows me to relate to the guy that's trying to buy the house or own the house and crying and complaining about taxes. The same thing, I think applies to what I went through in periods of incarceration and dealing with our justice system, right? To experience it firsthand. And so I'm that guy that, yeah, I was in and out of jail, in prison and basically like I was totally responsible for, for the majority of that because of my addiction to drugs, right? I did whatever it took to get the drugs that I wanted in order to escape, right? Because that's all that drugs were good for me for, was helping me to escape the harsh realities of life. But that prison experience was enough. Like, matter of fact, let me tell you one quick story. I end up the last time I was in prison, I ended up becoming a tutor, a math tutor. And in prison, especially in the Florida prisons, you have to have a certain TABE score, right, in order to be able to qualify for certain jobs. And, and if you have the lowest tape score, nine times out of ten you're going to be on the ground crew behind a lawnmower, right? And you don't want to be behind a lawnmower in this heat and humidity of Florida, right? Especially during the summer months. So people try to up their tape scores. And so my role was to help people increase their scores in math. I was a math tutor. And I remember this one brother, I'll just call him Thad for short, who were there and he was struggling with fractions. And I remember him from around dorm, really, he fit all the stereotypes that people put on us as black men. But he was a person that was involved in things he shouldn't have been involved in. But there he was trying to learn math. And I remember talking to him and he was like, man, I could never get these fractions right. And I started talking to him about why he was there. And he was there for a mid level dope charge, right? And he moved weight. And so I started talking to him in terms of the dope game, right? I'm like, okay, you got a brick and you got two people, two boys. You wanna, you wanna put that work on? What you gonna do? Oh, I'm Gonna break it in half, right? But what if you got two more? I'm gonna break em in quarters, right? And we started talking like that. And by the time I was down, I was like, yo, bro, you just did fractions, you know? And. And he was like, you seen his eyes lit up? And the thing was, was that the first lesson I learned there was that we have so many of our young men that come through our education system that is made to feel as if they're not worthy, that they can't get no. They can never become a doctor or lawyer. And the only thing that they see is getting in the dope game or getting in the gang or whatever that gives them any sense of belonging to, right? As if they. Or any sense of value. And so I saw. What I saw with him was that every time we mastered a subject, from fractions to integers, right? To different now algebraic equations, every time something he mastered it, it was like a layer was peeled away from Cedric. And he went from this. You know how my mom used to say, an empty barrel making a lot of noise. And so you'll see a lot of cats that real loud and boisterous, but it just hides the fact that they're empty on the inside, right? And we seen Cedric be transformed into a completely different person. And rather than initially when he was talking about how he getting back in the game when he get out now he have hopes and aspirations, right? And he ended up getting his GED while incarcerated. Completely different person, no longer loud, got his stuff on point, and he's talking about positive things that he wants to get engaged in, right? And so what I realized was a lot of times when we see people who are incarcerated that may be aggressive, allowed, that's just a facade to hide that little boy that's inside that was told that he'll never amount to nothing, right? And that we had to take on this extra sense of machismo or bravado, right? To prove how much of a man we are. And we went. We went for all of the things that society told us with being a man. And we lost a lot of the real things that really spoke to manhood. And we found ourselves caught up in this system, right? And then caught up in this cycle. And so that experience, right, so there was that experience that told me that even though I was incarcerated, I was able to learn something valuable that I was able to apply to life, right? And then understanding that, wait a minute, we can't respond to, like, everybody hates crime. And you're right, like, nobody wants to be a victim of crime. Right. And our response have generally been with anger and disgust. Right. But what I learned was that when you understand why some people are committing crimes or the circumstances behind it, and you get to go beyond just the surface and see the soul that's back there, and you're able to maybe empathize, and that allows you insight to now reduce crime in an even more effective way and an even safer way and a less costly way, because you have an understanding that I'm not just dealing with some animal that I just need to lock up and throw away the key. Right. That I'm dealing with a human being that's redeemable, that can be changed. Like me, I was once a pariah. Right. I was once a drain on society. Right. And because some people didn't give up on me, I was able to transform from that into someone that's contributing and contributing so much that they thought about nominating my arc for a Nobel Peace Prize. I mean, how big can you get? But that's coming from a guy that used to be the scourge of society. And so there are so many Desmonds, and I think I'm a living example. Ain't nothing too special here. It's just a regular guy that's been given the opportunity to take advantage of things and to do God's work. And there's so many folks who get caught up in our justice system that have the potential. And you see it from bits and pieces. People formerly incarcerated doing amazing things across the country.
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B
Yeah. You know, shout out to you for helping Ced. You guys said, find his brilliance. Find his purpose. I would say, you know, you talked about you transforming, and there's a moment when people either give up or decide to transform their pain into purpose. And I know you spoke about you standing in front of the train. Was that that moment for you, or was there another moment that made you say, I need to turn my pain into purpose?
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A
Well, that was the moment that said, you know what? The hell with all of that. I'm ready to check out. Right. I don't see no light at the end of the tunnel.
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B
You walked away when you found out, when you realized that the train wasn't coming and you did get to actually live and walk away. Was that that moment? What was the moment you said, I got to turn my pain into purpose?
- [19:53]
A
So. So it was actually a two part. Part one and part two. Because, see, what happened was when I crossed those tracks, right? This is like the prelude. I'd actually stopped, and I Looked back at those tracks, and I asked myself a very important question, Desmond. If that train would have came and you would have died, how many people would come to your funeral? And the immediate answer was zero. And, boy, let me tell you, that hit me in the gut like a Mike Tyson blow, right? And I was like, wait a minute. You mean to tell me nobody would come? I was like, okay, this is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna change the facts. Desmond, you were killed by the train. And your picture is on the front page of the Miami Herald. Top of the fold, Desmond. Killed by train. Bold headlights, headlines. How many people will come to your funeral then? And I thought, long and hard, brother. And let me tell you, I only came up with four people, right? And not the four. Maybe two would have shed a tear that hit almost as hard. And it made me question myself. And like, Dev, you mean to tell me after all these years of living on this planet, living all these different places and having all these different relationships, you mean to tell me only four people would care if you died? And here was the question, has your life been that insignificant? And I couldn't answer that question. But I took that with me when I checked myself in the drug treatment. And it so happened that when I went in the drug treatment, that was the year Rilda Parks passed away. And maybe a month in the drug treatment, they have a body laying in state in the return of the Capitol. And I so happen to be in the room, and I'm watching this thing play out on tv. People coming from all over the country to pay their last respects to Rosa Parks. And what I noticed was a lot of people were walking out of there with tears streaming down their cheeks. And something had hit me. And I jumped up, screaming at the tv, I ain't going to do it now, because I want to blow the mic out. But I'm like, that's it. And I'm screaming. And my mind started racing. And what I was doing, Jojo, I was literally planning my funeral. I wanted to have a funeral to just, like, Rosa Parks. And you know what's ironic was the image that I was starting to create in my head was similar to what we seen for the memorial service for Kobe and Gigi. Like, I mean, back then, I'm thinking, man, I want my funeral at Joe Robbie Stadium where the Dolphins played. And I wanted seats on the field. Every seat filled out, not a drive. And basically, what I was dune was going through this process of saying that I wanted to feel like I was somebody that my Life had some type of significance. Not that guy that was standing at the tracks, right, that was thinking that maybe only four people would come in the best case scenario. I wanted to feel that my life was worth something, right? And that exercise, you know, to where I even got down to thinking, well, man, how am I get all them people in Joe Robbie Stadium? What type of person does that? And I came up with a movie star or athlete. And I thought I was a little too old and my knees were too bad to play for the Dolphins, right? But, you know, I thought I went to movie star. And fortunately, I'm gonna say fortunate, but back then it was unfortunate. When I thought about movie star, I thought about Denzel Washington. I was like, I don't think I'm a bad looking brother, but I ain't no Denzel Washington type of handsome, right? And so I got discouraged. You know, my wife tell me not to say this in public, but I'm gonna say it anyhow. I tell folks, she probably gonna get on me for saying this, but I tell folks, thank God I didn't think of Forest Whitaker or Wesley Snipes, because I think I could get. I got them beat. I only thought of Denzel. And so that discouraged me and got me. Cause if I would have thought of them, I probably would have tried a career in acting or something, you know, but nah, you know, I thought of Danziel and that discouraged me. But what happened quickly was my mind went back to Rosa Parks about her story that she committed one act, right? And that act caused a lot of repercussions. Things came from that act that we feel even up to the day. And so I thought that maybe if I could take the pain and the suffering that led me to the railroad tracks and use it in a way to help other people, then they'll be able to help other people and so on and so on. And by the time I pass away, man, there might be a stadium full of people that say, man, if it for Desmond, man, if it wasn't for Desmond helping my friend, right, change his life, he wouldn't have been able to help me or save my life. And so, man, I'm going to miss Desmond, you know, and that's what I set out to do. I'm going in with this. What I quickly discovered was that when I did, and it wasn't, it wasn't even intentional, but when I did have an impact in someone's life, right, And I was still in the treatment center where something I said caused the brother to experience a Paradigm shift or have a brighter outlook on life. Something erupted in me, and it was a joy that I was chasing all my life and didn't even know I was chasing it. And it basically was boiled down to me discovering what my purpose was. Why am I here on this planet? And it was a simple answer. It was to give back. And when I discovered that, I realized I don't need the big stadiums anymore. That if I can, if all of the pain and suffering that I went through could help change just one life, bro, I met my quota. I'm good. I'm good. And so that's what I dove into. And that was that transformation that made Desmond wake up every day trying to find some type of way to improve somebody's life, whether it's passing constitutional amendments, right? Whether it's other passing different policy issues in Florida or across the country or. Or whether just being a source of inspiration to somebody who might be listening, that might be addicted to drugs or might have a son or family member addicted to drugs and think they will never amount to anything, but now knowing that they can turn their life around, that there is hope for people who we may want to look down on, and that they could be the key to transforming our communities. Maybe it's somebody that sees that's facing an obstacle in life and they're ready to give up. And they were like, if that, brother didn't give up, then maybe I don't need to give up just yet.
- [26:08]
B
I love it. And I love how you said, you know, you just wanted to change. If you could just change one life, you'd be happy. But Amendment 4 changed millions of lives, brother. So when you look back at that victory, what does it mean to you personally, man?
- [26:23]
A
Let me tell you. So two quick stories. One of them was right before we passed Amendment four, I ran across this dude, elderly dude who happened to live. The polling place was right across the street from a graveyard. And I remember then, right, a lot of people in the movement was talking about vote or die, that when you go to vote, you could actually impact policies that can have an impact on your life about whether or not you live, right? And I remember the guy lived a few blocks from the voting place, and he thought he couldn't vote. But when we looked him up on the sheet, it showed that he was a registered voter. So this elderly guy, he couldn't walk. So he got in his car with his oxygen tank or whatever, and we took him to the polling place. I walked beside him. He went in there, stood there for about an hour. When he came out, he said they didn't let him vote. And I pulled up a computer right then and there, and what I saw was, this dude lost his voting rights for the rest of his life because of driving with a suspended license.
- [27:24]
B
Wow.
- [27:24]
A
And I looked up at him, and he reminded me of my dad. And that thing hurt me, right? And I'm like, man, this dude might die before he ever get a chance to vote again. Right? And when we passed Amendment four, he happened to be in the audience with us that day. And I remember him hugging me and crying, me saying, I could vote. I could vote. Now, that was the biggest thing for me that night, right? But then much later, when we in the stage of implementing and.
- [27:57]
B
Right.
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A
And so after we passed it, Florida legislature said, okay, well, wait a minute. Y' all got to pay outstanding fines and fees before you get the right to vote back. And so we had that challenge there. But in the implementation phase, we ran across this sister named Barbara, who. She was like. When we had an organizer in the house registering her to vote, she was sitting down, writing, filling out a voter registration form, and started crying. And our people were like, why are you crying? And she said, I'm crying because for over 24 years, I've been trying to get my right to vote back. And I thought I was never gonna get it back, but here I am filling out a voter registration form. And when she got through filling it out and she handed the form to our organizer, she said, I'm gonna need you to pray that God allow me to cast that ballot. And this was in 2020. What we didn't know was that much before we had met Barbara, the doctor had gave her less than six months to live. And when we found out, it kind of. That touched me, because I'm like, man, wait a minute. This person know they about to die, and they dying wish ain't to go to Disney World or meet a celebrity or go to some exotic location. All she wanted was to get what it felt like to be a part of something bigger than her, to be a part of this democracy, to have a voice. All she wanted to do was get an opportunity to vote. That was her dying wish. And I remember telling folks about it. This one reporter wanted to interview her. When I reached out to the family, guess what they told me? Barbara died. She never got the opportunity to vote. And that ripped my heart out, had me crying like a baby because this woman wanted so bad to just be a part of something bigger, right? Especially when we talk about when we look at the history, especially as African Americans, when we look at the history of what our ancestors went through, right? The gauntlet of death, right? Threats of hanging or lynchings and being burned or bitten by dogs, sprayed with fire hoses. They went through it several times so that people like us that have an opportunity to have a voice, right? And knowing that some of us don't just totally discard it, but this woman understood the importance of what it meant to have a voice, and yet she was denied that opportunity because of death, right? That took something out of me. But it speaks to the question that you ask about the feeling of accomplishing this seemingly insurmountable task. The largest expansion of voting rights in over 50 years, right? Knowing that it's beyond just a number. It's man, it's people with hopes and aspirations that are revived. It's honoring and making our ancestors proud because they went through hell, right, to get the right to vote. And here's the thing, that everything that they went through when they faced death and they still pressed on, it wasn't for their benefit. They get nothing out of it. And it wasn't because they had a perfect candidate or anything like that. They actually did that so that their children and their children's children could have an opportunity. And so that moment, man, I thought, did our ancestors proud, man, because that's what they sacrificed themselves for. And here we are once again doing, did the same thing and put our bodies on the line and our time and our energy on the line to, to make sure that over 1.4 million. And then what that did was it inspired people in other states like North Carolina and Louisiana and New Mexico to expand voting rights there. And they all had one thing in common. They were all led by people who were directly impacted. And so you're seeing an expansion and then here's the icing on the cake. You ready? That along with. And those people that expanded in different states came to Florida to help US Pass Amendment 4. And one of the main people who organized it was my wife, Sheena Mead, right? And her experience there, she took that and it led her to launch a national organization now Clean Slate Initiative that automates the record clearing process for people across the country. And today over 18 million people right now have a pathway to having their records clean, expunged without them having to do anything, right? And so it's like the gift that keeps giving, right? But it started with the ability to have to be audacious enough and courageous enough to actually believe that we can accomplish the impossible. That we can overcome insurmountable odds because we know that nothing is impossible when God's on our side, brother.
- [32:54]
B
That's an amazing story. And you know, before I get to the next question, and much love to the wife on the Clean Slate initiative, I definitely want to jump into some.
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A
Yeah, she banging, bro.
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B
But I do want to say, you know, the Barbara story is a lovely story, yet a sad story. But although she didn't get to vote, you gave her the vision that she was going to have the chance to vote. So although she didn't get to vote, she got to see that she was able to vote. And I think that was a lot that you did for her, man. Like, even though she died without voting, she died knowing she was going to be able to vote. And that might have done just as much that you thought that, as much as she thought it would do by actually voting. So you talked about the clean slate. Of course, my brother. Of course you talked about the Clean slate initiative and people getting an opportunity to vote again that have been incarcerated. And I want to talk about, why do you think society struggles so much with the idea of redemption, especially for formerly incarcerated people?
- [33:55]
A
Well, you know, I don't know. I don't, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say society don't struggle that much. I think the struggle isn't with, with politicians, right? Because when they don't know how to fix a situation, they resort to one liners, right? And they result to innuendos and they result to these even culture wars to actually avoid actually dealing with something head up, right? And it's simple. It's so simple. It's like, I think society first of all understands that. I mean, America is a country of second chances, right? Society likes the underdog. They like the thing about redemption. Matter of fact, let me tell you, they're the significant portion of our population that are Christians, right? And the biggest story in Christianity is the story of when Christ died for our sins. He was on the cross. While he was there, he had a conversation with, with a so called criminal, right? A person that was convicted of committing a crime and was being punished. And in that conversation, that guy which I call a returning citizen, said, Jesus, can I be saved? When can I go to heaven? And Jesus response to him was this day. It wasn't, oh, we gotta wait for a few years to see know how long you stay clean. It wasn't matter of fact, he asked, what did you do? Whether the violent or nonviolent. He didn't ask none of that. His immediate Reaction was, this day you shall enter into paradise. And that conversation actually speaks to what sits at the fabric of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism. And it's this concept of forgiveness, redemption and restoration, right? Of grace, right? And it's instantaneous, right? It's instantaneous. And so when I think about forgiveness and redemption of folks being able to come back into society after serving their time and paying their debt, I believe that at its core, America do believe in second chances. America do believe in redemption. And boy, do they love a comeback story, right? And we've seen it in the super bowl just now, they love a comeback story. Somebody who was told that they would never amount to anything and was no good and was cast aside by one team, another team picked them up and he led them to a Super bowl championship, right? And so America loves that if the politicians, right, that just get stuck around these one liners and create narratives that throw people off. But the reality is that the quicker we help a person reintegrate back into society, the least likely they are to reoffend. We know that. And so after a person has served their time, man, let them vote, let them get a job, let them get housing, right? And the thing that Clean Slate addresses is that even people who are not convicted, all they did was get arrested. And because of that, when they go to fill out an application for have you ever been arrested? They go fill out an application for a job. Have you ever been arrested for college to get an educated. Have you ever been arrested? And all those things create barriers, right, that not only hurt that person and their family, guess who else it hurts? Aired society. Let me give you a quick fact. Florida, for the last 10 years, Florida has lost over you Ready for this? $300 billion of lost earnings because of barriers that we put in front of people with arrest records. Like, what good doesn't serve anybody to deny a person like me an opportunity to get a good paying job? Because if I do that, I'm paying taxes. So now your taxes don't have to go up, right? I'm buying homes. So now I'm stimulating the economy, I'm making more money, I can spend more money, right? Everybody's talking about affordability and the economy and all rising taxes. I can help solve a lot of that if only you let me work, if only you let me go to school, if only you let me have a safe and affordable house, a roof over my head. And we have these barriers in place for no reason. It serves no purpose, no, no legitimate purpose whatsoever. But they're there because of Political rhetoric. We can't be soft on criminals. We gotta be tough. But guess what? 95% of people who are incarcerated are coming home. And what do we want? We wanna stop them forgetting jobs, housing and education. Then what you think gonna happen? A hungry lion is gonna do what, brother? They gonna eat.
- [38:25]
B
He's gonna go back to being a hungry lion. He gonna go eat.
- [38:27]
A
A hungry lion gonna eat. So it is in everyone's best interest that we do whatever can to help facilitate a smooth transition from incarceration and the penalty phase into the redemption and restoration phase. Everybody benefits. Our economy benefits, our public safety benef, that's significantly reducing crime, right? And the family and that person also benefits because now that person can pursue life, liberty and all that other good stuff and they have ability to engage in economic mobility. It's a win, win, win situation, but we get caught up in it. I'm going to end with this and I'm going to tell you one of the biggest fallacies of politicians. You know, they always talk about fighting crime, right? And we spend a lot of money because politicians want to what, fight crime. And the reality is, is that most of the money that they spend, which is our tax dollars that they spend to fight crime, they're actually using it to respond to crime. It's a difference, right? It's a difference. I want to invest my dollars so you can prevent me from becoming a victim. But you using my dollars just to tell me that oh well, a guy who hurt me you going to throw in jail, which you, you don't even solve the majority of the crimes anyhow, right? The reality is that our investment should be because it's safer and cheaper to prevent crime from happening in the first place, right? I don't want you to tell me how you locked up the person that hurt my son, right? Or killed my son. Because I ain't never get my son back. What I want you to tell me is that you prevented my son from being killed. That's what I'm investing my money in. And that is what fighting crime is all about. Fighting crime ain't about locking them up because the crime has already happened. What you fighting. And so I do believe, to answer your question, no. We are a nation that believes in redemption. And that's why policies like clean slave initiative policies are catching on in blue states, red states, purple states, like over 13 states across the country have already adopted clean slate policies that have said why are we holding people back from economic mobility unnecessarily? Why are we holding people back from fulfilling their dreams so they can become better citizens. And so I tell folks, my wife help folks get back engaged and help them make some dollars and help them get education and my work helped them empower them by being a part of our democratic process. So we're a good one, two combination. She just, she impacted more lives than I have, though. 18 million. That's a big number there. I mean, that's more than the population of a lot of states.
- [41:15]
B
I'm sure you guys are a power couple when it comes to impacting lives. So I'm sure that you both do equal amount of work for the community and the society. What's the biggest misconception about people returning home from prison?
- [41:31]
A
Well, I think the biggest misconception is that we all black. You know, that's the biggest misconception. I mean, traditionally, I used to ask folks in Florida back when I was on the campaign trail end, I would say, you know, tell me what percentage of people you think in Florida can't vote because of a felony conviction. Right. And what percentage of them are African Americans? And what I used to do when I asked those questions, I would always have a prize to give. And I don't give to the person that have the right answer. I always give the prize to the person who's furthest away from the truth. So they're always reminding how off they are. And I would get like 75%, 80% of people who can't vote in Florida are African American. Right. And the reality is, is that it's only around 30% of African Americans now. Felon disenfranchisement disproportionately impacts. They disproportionately impact the African American community. Understand that. But when it just comes to straight numbers, right, there were like almost three times as many people who didn't look like me that couldn't vote in Florida than people who looked like me. And because of that, you had a lot of people that was against giving me my right back because they thought, oh, we get all those black people their right to vote and all black people vote Democrat, that's going to help Democrats. And it became a political issue instead of a human issue. It became a political issue. Right. Once again, that's politicians working. And so I think the biggest misconceptions was that it was strictly an African American. So when you think of prison, you close your eyes, you think of prison, you think of a black person image come to your mind, right? He might be even having gold teeth, maybe even sagging pants, some dreads or whatever. When you close your eyes and think of immigration, you think of maybe a Mexican. And the reality is both of those images are wrong. Like, the immigrants are reflected. I mean, there's a diversity of immigrants that are reflected in our country. Right. And it's not just Mexicans that are immigrants. They were like, you have Asian folks that are immigrants, and then you have people from the Caribbean of African descent who are immigrants. Right. The same thing with the criminal justice system. It's not just African Americans that's driving crime or whatever, or are locked up. No, there's a whole bunch of white folks, a lot more white folks who are doing stuff. And of course, we have a disproportionate amount of Latino that are represented in our criminal justice system as well. But it's not just African American.
- [44:02]
B
I agree. On this podcast, we talk a lot about accountability. Can you tell me what that looks like alongside forgiveness and second chances?
- [44:12]
A
Well, hey, you know, I think I like that forgiveness and second chances piece. I think that, you know, when I look at it, you know, I think the biggest thing that I could probably speak to that is love. Right? And I talk about love a lot. You know, I tell folks that one of the reasons why we were successful with Amendment 4 was because we engaged in the campaign that did not try to play to people's fears, Right. Or people's emotions, their anger. Right. We didn't drive. It wasn't driven by hate. It wasn't driven by fear. Rather, the driving force of our campaign was love. It was love. You know, MLK always talked about that. Like, hate can't drive out hate. Fear can't drive out fear. Right? Right. But what can defeat it all is love. And the kind of love that he was talking about is the same kind of love I'm talking about today. And it's not that love that you have with somebody give you the winning numbers to the lotto. You know what I'm saying? That. That. I ain't talking about that kind of love. That. Oh, because they make you feel good, you love them. Nah, that's that superficial stuff. I'm talking about that biblical love, right? Some folks call it the agape love. And it's the love that you have for someone when you know that they don't. Like, they hate you or they don't even love you. How do you love your enemies? Right? And I like to simplify that by saying, and it's in the Bible, about wanting for your neighbor what you want for yourself, right? And I think that that is the ultimate level of accountability because it forces you to ask, what do you want to happen to you? And then make you apply it to a stranger. How you want to be treated will make you now treat someone that same way. Or what do you want to happen to you if you make a mistake? Will now help you understand policies that could be implemented when someone else makes a mistake. You feel what I'm saying? And that creates a level of accountability that actually creates a more loving and a more vibrant kind of community, right? Not a community that's driven by hatred or, or fear, because what we see in that is something that's destructive, right? But when you have a community that is driven with accountability, with love and grace, man, you have something that can thrive, that can grow, right? And that could develop into something even more beautiful, right? And so I'm big on that, brother. Man, listen, at the end of the day, man, what I've learned more than anything, right? And then. And you see it even in the Bible, right, Because this verse that tells it all, First Corinthians 13, that they call the love chapter, right? I would encourage anybody to read it because basically what it says, in a sense is that, man, you can have all these skill set. You can sing like the angels, you could dance like whoever, you know, like big legs, was it big legs. You could dance like, you could rap like, you could rap like run or whatever, you know what I'm saying? You can have all these skills, but if you don't have love for the regular dude on the corner, then none of that matters to God. If, like, it's useless, it's a waste of time, none of that matters. And so you could claim that you this and that, but if you don't, if you can't have love for the fellow man, then what you saying, right,
- [47:35]
B
what you do, it goes back to the old, you know, go back to the old saying, treat people how you want to be treated, right? Pretty much. You know, although it sounds. People tend to forget that that's all people want to be treated is how you would treat yourself. So, yeah, I totally agree, man. I want to.
- [47:51]
A
I think they call it the golden rule, right? Golden rule.
- [47:54]
B
You want?
- [47:55]
A
Come on. It's a golden rule for a reason.
- [47:58]
B
Yeah. I want to talk about how does civic engagement, voting, organizing and showing up help people reclaim their dignity and purpose after incarceration? I know you spoke about a little bit earlier saying, like, you know, these people need to feel empowered. They want to feel a part of society. How does it. How does it Help people reclaim their dignity and purpose after. After coming home.
- [48:18]
A
Well, I think one of the things that's got to be key to that is just that you just don't want people to go out and vote. Just rush out there and vote. Number two is you don't want to try to like. And this is the thing that you could come across so disingenuous, right? By, you know, you want to register people to a third party and all that. No, that. All that's out the window. Right. I think the first conversation that you have with people who have gained the right to vote is talking about the importance of their voice. Right. And how their voice being added. Right. Is something that creates a more vibrant democracy for everybody. So I'm not telling you who to vote for or how to vote. What I'm telling you that you participating in our democracy is vital and you need to be a part of that. Right? Right. So we get that. We get that understanding. And then the other thing is that I don't go and start telling you why I think you should vote, because that's my personal opinion. Right? And it used to bother me that folks used to get mad at people for not voting. And they'd be like, well, why should they vote? You only thinking about what you're voting for. You ain't thinking about what they want. And so I think to cure that, you gotta have conversations with them like, what are your needs, man? What are your fears? What are your desires? You know, what moves you, what wakes you up in the middle of the night? And then talk to them about how they can engage in a way that address their needs. Right? I'm not registering you to vote so you can satisfy my needs or help me help my candidate win. No, I don't have that. I'm registering you to vote and I'm talking to you to vote so you can satisfy your needs and your desires. And guess what? It may not line up with mine, but it's okay. I want your voice in it because it's your voice that matters. Right? And so in having that conversation, like what I did was when we won Amendment four and I was able to register the vote a couple months later for the very first time in over 30 something years. Bro, I hadn't voted since I was 18. So you talking about over 30 something years I have lived and was not able to vote. And now I'm having my first opportunity. And so when I go to register, I was like, wait a minute, I'm a registered independent. I'm going to Be an mpa. Why do you want to be that? Because guess what? No party gets my vote automatically, right? You got to earn my vote, man. You got to work for my vote. I just don't give it to you, right? And once again, to go back to my people paid a big price for me to have this. And that's why I tell folks, like, for real, like when folks are saying, oh, my vote don't count or whatever, I say, oh, it don't matter. And I tell them, if your vote didn't matter, then why are people trying so hard and expending so much resources to stop you from voting? So it's got to be some value there, right? And if there's value there, how the heck you just gonna give it away? How you just gonna give away a chunk? You got a chunk? A platinum chunk?
- [51:15]
B
Yeah.
- [51:16]
A
You gonna just give it away?
- [51:17]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [51:17]
A
No, you got to earn that person got to earn that. And so which means that I don't automatically get. I don't want to automatically get pigeonholed into being I'm this and that. So what I am is an independent thinker, right? And I am saying that I'm a voter that will vote. And if you wanted my vote, you got to work for it, and maybe you can earn it. And then later on, when I went to go vote for the first time, bro, since I was 18 years old, and I'm walking down the path to go to the voting location, I'm like, man, I'm walking on hollow ground. You know how much blood was shed, right? Lives were lost to give me the right to vote. And I walked in there, and when I went in the booth and I'm by myself, it hit me that, man, this voting thing, but it's something sacred. It's sacred because of the sacrifices that was made. And that level of sacredness had actually elevated what I was doing beyond partisan politics or even implicit racial biases. And I was no longer voting as a Democrat or a Republican or as a black person, as a rich person, as a poor person. What that voting did was say I was engaged in an act that validated my existence on this planet, my humanity. Right? That trumps all of that, right? All of those labels that tend to divide us as a country, right? No, when I voted, it elevated me above that. I'm putting that respect on my vote. And now it came full circle, because now instead of me just telling that politicians need to put a respect on my vote, I knew I had to also put a respect on my vote. Right. And when we're able to do that, let me tell you what happens. The people who have been impacted by the criminal justice system far outs exceeds the margin of victory in a lot of political races throughout this country. I'm gonna give you just two examples. In Georgia. In 2020, the presidential election in Georgia was decided by. By a little over 10,700 votes. In Georgia, there are a million people who are justice impacted who are eligible to register to vote right now. A million. In the state in which the margin of victory to become president was 10,700 votes. In North Carolina, the margin of victory was 70,000 votes. There are over 481,000 justice impacted people. I can go to Philadelphia, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Arizona, New Mexico. I could probably even go to New York. And you will see that those numbers are consistent throughout this country because of America's infatuation with locking people up and the drug wars. Right. We now have a sizable population that's living everyday lives and paying taxes. That can be a part of our democracy that if they were ever to stand as one and say, we, our voice need to be heard, can determine the outcome of any election, whether it's congressional race, whether it's a dog catcher race, whether it's a mayoral race, whether it's a presidential election. And that's.
- [54:45]
B
Yeah, I agree with you on the voting in. On. On. You know, I have a lot of friends and people that like when it comes time to vote, and they're like, well, I'm only one vote. It doesn't matter. I'm like, no matter how you feel, we're black, bro. Do you know what was done for us to get this opportunity to even vote? It is definitely a place of sacredness. It's a place of some type of chunk of decision. Even though you may not feel your decision affects the actual decision, you have that right. There was a time where we didn't have the right to even do it. And that's why I get so upset with friends that say, well, my vote's not gonna count. I'm not gonna vote here because it doesn't matter. We didn't have a chance to vote at one point in life. So that simple reason I'm going to vote. No matter if you. My, my. I don't affect it or not, I'm going to vote. And then another thing to state, you know, to double down on what you said is yes or Republican, you need to work for my vote. I'm not just picking Democratic because I believe it's for black people. I'm looking at everybody standpoints. I'm looking at everybody's platforms, and I'm saying, okay, this is what you're trying to do for the country. This is what you're trying to do for the country. This is what I don't agree with. This is what I do agree with, and I pick from that. And people like, so what do you mean you're picking Trump? I never said anything like that. Like, when I vote, I just say who's the best for what I believe is best for my life and for my family and for my society, so that I can feel like I've picked or voted for someone that aligns with my values the best.
- [56:16]
A
So, Jojo, let me just two quick points. Let me tell you this one. First of all, when you go to vote, right, where do you go? You go in a booth, right? Some of them close the curtain behind you, right? You. By who you with yourself. That's a moment between you and God, right? Yes, it is. Ain't no cameras in there, right? You don't got no crowd in there with you. So what that means is that that sacred act is also a private act. You don't got to tell Mansoul who you voted for, not once.
- [56:43]
B
I never do.
- [56:43]
A
I'm not obligated to tell nobody nothing. I voted and I voted for the person who I think was gonna be the best, the best out of the two. And that's all I need to say. I don't need to tell you who it is.
- [56:55]
B
I don't need to tell you that.
- [56:56]
A
And so that's one thing. The other thing is what I would tell you to tell your friend is that when. That when your people don't. When we don't vote, you know what that's saying? It's telling our ancestors, our grandparents, that y' all died in vain. Or you wasted your blood on me, like you took a bullet for me. And you know what? You should have saved your doggone the trouble, because I ain't worth it. You wasted it. And so they've got to understand that if somebody's willing to take. If your boy is willing to take a bullet for you so you can do something and you don't do it, what do you say? How you look, right? And they've got to understand that people made a sacrifice, and you not voting is basically saying they wasted their sacrifice for you.
- [57:47]
B
Yeah, I agree. Now, I want to talk about addiction and recovery as we pivot a little bit, because I know you talk about that a lot. How Important is healing mentally and emotionally in a journey of reentry. How important is that?
- [58:01]
A
I think so, definitely in the work. I think mental healing is important. It's funny that you asked that, man, because, you know, I was talking about people who have been incarcerated, and then they get out, and then they're doing amazing things, and there's a lot of potential. And, you know, you have different organizations that might employ folks who just recently released and for various reasons. Right. Some of them because they believe in the mission, some because, okay, we want this token to show that we are working with impacted people. But here's the thing that I think a lot of folks like, Miss. Right. That just because I come out of prison and I could throw this suit on and I can. I can articulate words in a way that lets you know that, man, I've been hitting the books while I was in prison or whatever. I'm. I might not always. I might not be all the way. Right, Right. And, yeah, I'm smart and I'm doing all the right things and I'm being successful, but I'm not reaching my full potential because there's untreated trauma that I have. Right?
- [59:11]
B
Yes.
- [59:12]
A
Untreated trauma from being incarcerated and being in an environment that's not even good for animals. Some of our folks have had to endure solitary confinement. Their efforts now to get rid of that, because, I mean, that's so dehumanizing. Right. And debilitating. And it caught. We seen. I can't remember the brother name that got locked up for a backpack and put in. And he ended up. When he finally did get out, he ended up killing himself.
- [59:40]
B
Brody, his name was not Trayvon Martin. Sorry. His name was Kalief Browder, I believe.
- [59:47]
A
Yeah, Browder. Brody. Yeah. Right. And so. But yet there. There's untold stories of people that have spent months and even years in solitary confinement without any kind of interaction with a human being. Right. That is inhumane. Right. And so what hit home so that those things have to be addressed? I might be fine on the outside, but trust me, those things don't just disappear. I learned through substance abuse recovery that we can suppress our trauma so good that it no longer exists in our reality. Like, you tell me that this. Something happened to me 10 years ago, and I'm swearing left and right, but you got the wrong person. And what recovery does, it helps you dig deep and go through those painful episodes of discovering those things and then dealing with it. Right. Which is very important. I wrote about it in my book. I wrote a Book called Let my people Vote. I recommend anybody get the book. And I wrote about that in that. And how when you have untreated trauma, right, that's buried in your subconscious. And how your head is a democratic society, your conscious is only about like 10% of your brain. You about 10% of your capacity. And 10% of your capacity might say I love myself and I want to live. But if 90% is saying I hate myself and I want to die, we end up doing destructive things that sabotages our efforts and we can't figure out why. And that's because I headed the democratic society and the majority gonna win. And so we have this, this, this battle that was going on between our conscience and our subconscious and our untreated trauma. I'm gonna get, I'm get to the end. Because here's the part that really summed it up for me, right? I'm in the prison speaking to some folks that are housed there. And this one brother, he left, he came back, we bout to end, they told him that we were wrapping up, he was like, but I got one question I need to ask him. So I asked the officer, please let him ask the question. Man, I don't know. You know what that brother asked me, he asked me, he said, Mr. Desmond, all I need you to do is tell me what would you say if we can go back in time? What would you say to my 9 year old self who was standing there one day and had to decide whether he was going to go home to this messed up situation or hit the streets? I chose the streets. And because of that I have a life sentence. So if we can roll back and have the time, what advice would you give my nine year old self? And let me tell you something, I started crying, I was like, and excuse my language, I'm gonna try to like, so what the heck do I need to be? What are we saying about society where I have to a nine year old have to be making those type of decisions. I should not be having to give any nine year old no doggone guidance on making those type of life decisions. He's nine years old. And I told him, brother, ain't nothing I could tell you other than I love you and that we failed you as a society. No nine year old should have to be making those decisions. But guess what, we've got a lot of men and women who are currently incarcerated because at 9 years old they had to make life decisions, right? They had to make decisions about what they were going to allow somebody to do to them or whether they had the power or whether they should go left or go right. They had to make decisions at an age when they should have not had to even be contemplating anything like that.
- [63:21]
B
Wow.
- [63:22]
A
Right. And so when you talk about. Yes. That people are coming out yet, we need to. We just can't look at people and say, oh, they look good. Oh, they're good. Whatever. You know, we can't just rely on their educational skills and say, oh, yeah, he's smart as heck. Let's put them in there. Whatever. We have to also understand that the other part of it that completes his humanity is that spiritual part. Right. And what's going on back there Right in the depths of his soul. And. And when we learn to address that, we unlock the potential of folks to where they can do even more amazing things than what you thought that they can do. Because of the process that I went through, I believe that allowed me to get in contact with my inner self in a way and be able to engage in a campaign to where now I got the majority of my subconscious thinking that I'm a cool dude. Right. I'm deserving of love and happiness. Right. And that I can. I do have something off society now that I got the majority of my subconscious thinking that I could step into my purpose even more profoundly.
- [64:34]
B
Yeah.
- [64:34]
A
And cause amazing things that happen. And I could pop my collar. Right. Knowing that. Yeah. Like, really? You let. I challenge your listeners find somebody who's been man of the Year. They state time 100 MacArthur genius fellow and had the organization nominate for Nobel Peace Prize. That's a challenge. Find one person in your state that can claim all of those things. And hit you. Hit JoJo up. JoJo hit me up. Say we got one, right? Maybe you find one. I doubt it.
- [65:06]
B
I don't think we're gonna find it. I don't know if we'll find another deadline right now, but who knows?
- [65:11]
A
I get to pop my collar until then. Yeah.
- [65:15]
B
Any subscriber watching or listening? I hope you heard he's challenging you to find another him right now as he's out of the.
- [65:23]
A
And you'll get an autographed book. Autographed copy of my book. Let my people vote. And some swag. Let my people vote Swag to go with it.
- [65:32]
B
Y' all heard it. He's giving out a book and some swag. If you could. If you can, step up to that challenge. Now, I wanted to talk about a lot of returning citizens from being incarcerated. They feel like they face barriers that are intentional. How do they keep Hope Alive while navigating systems designed to exclude them from it.
- [65:50]
A
I mean, one of the things is, let me tell you, I got a brother in North Carolina. His name is Darrell Atkinson, right?
- [65:58]
B
Okay.
- [65:59]
A
That brother is like the lead. What was that? Johnnie Cochran, right? He's the Johnnie Cochran of lawyers for formerly incarcerated persons. Right. I got another brother in Louisiana named Norris Henderson, right? Norris Henderson came out of Angola and he leads VOTE right now, organization called vote. And Norris was one of the leading voices in turning Angola from being one of the bloodiest prisons in the country, Right. To even now having a hospice program within the prison that give restores dignity back to aging people who are incarcerated in that facility. And he's doing amazing work across the state of Louisiana, Right. I got a sister named Susan Burton right? Out of la, California, right? And Susan got all kinds of days named after her and everything. By the way, did I tell you, I got two days named after me in two different counties in Florida, and I got my own street in Dade County, Florida, like Dr. Desmond.
- [67:02]
B
I don't know if we'll find somebody that has that, too. So. Yeah, but Susan Burton does.
- [67:07]
A
Susan Burton does. Amazing woman that took her pain, all these people took their pain, turned it into purpose, and used their passion to pass policies that have impacted people's lives, right? They can look at my wife. My wife have a record, and now she's cleared records of over 18 million people across the country. And so there are stories across the country of people who have been impacted by the justice system that have found a way to overcome and are doing amazing things. You with me? And so that's number one. Number two is that I don't put the. Because let me tell you, when I talk to regular people. Regular people, right? Yeah. That don't make no sense. That don't make no sense. That don't make no sense. Once again, it's politicians, right? And when you get politicians, I used to tell people this. There's a big difference between the politician and the public servant, right? When politicians are involved, people die and suffer. When public services are involved, when people live and our communities can thrive. Right? And the difference is between the politician and the public servant is where the priority lies. A public servant will always place the needs of the people above partisan politics, while politicians allow partisan politics to guide their work. Right? And so because it's cool to say, let's get tough on crime, right? You're not going to pass any policies that clear pathways for people who have served their time, pay their debt back to society, and trying to reenter. But if you take the politician aside and you ask anybody if they know anybody who they love, who's ever made a mistake, and they say to you, yes. And then you ask them, do they deserve to have a second chance, they're going to say, heck yes. Right? And you're going to say, do your son or your daughter deserve an opportunity to earn a decent living, to be able to live in a safe and affordable housing or to be able to get an education? They're going to say, heck yes. Triple heck, yes. It's the politician that's saying that that shouldn't happen because it's being soft on crime, you know, which is not like being tough on people. Getting out does not fight crime. It's not being soft on crime. Remember what I told you? The idea of fighting the crime is responding to crime instead of preventing it. If you really wanted to prevent crime, you would make sure that when people are getting out that they don't have these obstacles. So I would tell people that's out there that the world ain't against you, y' all brother sister. The world is not against you. Right? The world as a whole wants to embrace you and wants to give you an opportunity to do the right thing. They may not have liked what you did, and they may, yeah, you're supposed to be punished, whatever. But the world in general is saying, if you paid your price, you served your time, that you deserve an opportunity to successfully reintegrate. You deserve another chance to do right, to make it right. You know what I'm saying? It's politicians that get caught up in this partisan stuff that makes it more difficult. And that's why when people are going to the polls, when they go into the voting booth to vote, they need to look at, am I voting for a politician or public servant? Right? Am I voting for someone that's going to make my husband or my daughter's life harder? Right? Or am I voting for somebody that cares about what happens to my son and daughter? Right? Or they stuff going to be based on politics or some type of cultural wars. Nah, man. I want a politician that, you know, what cares about me as a human being. I want a politician that's willing to say, matter of fact, to hell with a politician. I want a public servant. I want someone that's willing to say that I am willing to place the needs over the people in general above whatever party I may be affiliated with, right? Because that was what mattered most. The constitute when you look at the constitution or the not even what was the preamble to the Constitution? What does it say? We the people, not we the political party or we the politicians. It says we the people. And if that can't be your priority, then you need to stay your butt home and don't go into public service.
- [71:35]
B
Right, right.
- [71:36]
A
And our people need to make sure that we voting people that understand what public service is and will prioritize the people.
- [71:43]
B
Yeah, yeah, 100%. 100%. Great answer. How do we shift the narrative from punishment to restoration without ignoring harm that was actually done?
- [71:56]
A
Well, we never want to ignore the harm that was done. We never want to ignore that. Right. But I think what it is is we shifting from reacting to the harm to preventing the harm. You see? Yeah. Like, no, we've got to respond to the harm. But what would you rather. No. And really, what? Do you want to hear comforting words, right, at your son's funeral? Right. Or do you want to hear words to your son when he's graduating, walk across that stage?
- [72:31]
B
Right?
- [72:32]
A
Right. So to me, I'm like, if, if, if. If I want to put a lot of attention on this, how do we stop the pain from happening? How do we. Because I don't think anybody is saying, man, I want to invest a lot of my tax dollars so that people can console me and we could punish people that do me harm. No. And so we already got that part. We know how. We got laws that will punish people. Right. And we address the harm. We got, like, for instance, if I break your car one and it costs you 200 to a pair of. Right? I got to pay you $200 in restitution. I got to make you whole. Right now I've got to give up a certain amount of time of my liberty and freedom to be incarcerated because I did wrong to you. Right? But once I pay that debt, right, Then what you want me to keep paying? Like, you gonna keep paying the car note after you paid your car off?
- [73:36]
B
You know, obviously not ignoring the harm, but what role does community play in preventing people to. From returning to prison, though? Because, you know, they get out, but then sometimes they get back in. What role does community play in that? And I know you say it's the politicians, and I agree, it is the politicians. It is the laws that are put into place. It is the barriers that these inmates or these people that were inmates coming home from can't get jobs, can't get opportunities, can't get situations, and they go back into what got them into prison so far. The community.
- [74:06]
A
I mean, I might sound A little old school, but I think we're like. We're in a catch 22 situation, right? We have technology that does a lot of great things, right? It makes life easier for us. But the other thing that technology does, it disconnects us from each other, right? It disconnects. It disconnects community to where the bigger community now is not the community in the neighborhood, it's the social media community. You feel what I'm saying? And it's void of any proximity, human proximity to each other. And people can say things and do things and be things that they're not, right? And live in this now, like alternative reality, right? But if we're talking about real community, what I do know about real community is that we hold each other accountable because we have love for each other in this neighborhood, right? Which meant that back in our days, like if I did something down the street, right, Ms. Sallie Mae was correcting me on that and she was telling my mama, you know what I'm saying, it was a community thing. And that I had to Be respectful to Ms. Sallie Mae or whoever, right? And you don't really have that now because now we're. You need to start my business, right? Everybody. We're so isolated, right? And when we isolated, how can a village. It takes, like I say, it takes a village to raise a child. How could the village raise them if you're not. If you're disconnecting yourself from the village?
- [75:36]
B
If someone listening has a loved one who is incarcerated or newly released, what's one thing you wish more families would understand?
- [75:46]
A
That there's a lot that's going on underneath the surface, right? And that we have to. In grace, you know, there should be any expectation for them to make up for lost time immediately, right? Or to correct all the wrongs, you know, I think that's very important, that we should give our loved ones that space to what they call it, acclimate, right? One of the things that used to make me laugh, I remember a friend of mine, you know, he told me when he got. When he got out, you know, he went to use the bathroom and he used, you know, one the. The. The self flushing toilets scared the heck out of him. He ran about the stall, right? Almost tripped on himself because the toilet just flushed automatically. They use the cell phones, but it was at a point where folks didn't know about the cell phones and didn't know how to use it and things of that nature and technology is moving so fast that we're going to be doing things Outside that they're not going to be. They're going to be totally lost on. And then we need to, like, extend that grace, because the one thing we don't want our folks to do is get frustrated. Right. Sometimes what folks said and it matter. It showed up in the movie with Morgan Freeman. I cannot remember the name of that movie where he was locked up with the dude, but it'll come back to me. But in this particular movie, the guy, Birdman, guy who used to have birds, he got released, and, man, he just couldn't. Couldn't get in the swing of things as a cashier at the grocery store. Oh, man. And it got so bad that he ended up killing himself. He got up on the rafter, then he hung himself because he just couldn't. He'd been in there so long, and he felt like he was a stranger out there in the real world. And so there are frustrations that people are going to feel and what we don't want them to feel that they don't belong. And the attitude that, you know, you commit a crime, you get arrested, you get sentenced to certain amount of time, you serve your time. The minute you walk out the gates, that's when your real sentence begins.
- [78:06]
B
Yeah.
- [78:07]
A
And so as family, we make sure that our people are not feeling as if now their sentence is beginning now that they're home. Right. How are we, therefore, how we showing up? How we make sure that they're addressing mental health issues and things of that nature? I think that's so. That's so important.
- [78:26]
B
Yeah, I think so, too. I think definitely that part where, you know, when. When they're coming home, families should definitely ask and lean into the mental health aspect of it and make sure that they're good. You know, like you said, a lot of people come out looking good on the outside, but on the inside, there's a lot going on, and I think support from family and a listening ear from family could go a long way. Now, to wrap this up, Desmond, last question. What message do you want people to hear when they think about justice, redemption, and the power of doing good? On the For Good podcast?
- [78:55]
A
Ain't nothing stronger than love. There's nothing I could say that's stronger than love. There's no more powerful message. And I tell folks, nothing is impossible when you have God on your side, but when the work that you're doing is powered with love, man, you could accomplish so much and have such a great. A great impact on other people's lives. Right. No matter who we are, no matter what position that we face. No matter what our status is, no matter how much or little money we make, we all have an opportunity to be a man of the year. We all have an opportunity to impact our communities. Right? I tell folks this all the time. How we respond to each other is what makes this country great. Right? See, so the big lie has been that it takes a politician to make America great again. The reality is it takes us as human beings connecting with our neighbors in a very dignified way and coming to our AIDS and connecting along the lines of humanity. That makes this country great. And we see it every time at the aftermath of disaster of 9, 11, you see people that come together and don't give a darn about a person's political beliefs, religious beliefs, sexual identity, immigration status. We don't give a dog about none of that. Right? In the aftermath of a hurricane or a natural disaster, when you see human beings come together and you know what? They even put their own lives at risk to save the life of someone they don't even know, it's in those moments that we are great and beautiful as a country. And so I am convinced the only thing that makes America great again is when we come together along the lines of humanity and we love our neighbor. Wow. That is what makes America great again. Not one politician, no political party, none of that. It's us. It's us. It starts and it ends with we the people.
- [80:57]
B
I love that man. Desmond. I appreciate that was a great answer to the last question. And I truly do believe that the way to make America great again is believing in humanity and being there for each other and supporting each other and being a little nicer to each other. I want to thank you and give you your four good flowers, like I do at the end of every episode, for being such a great person in our community, for being such an inspirable person in our community, for making the change, for making the impact, for doing everything you've done, for helping and impacting millions of lives, for even your wife impacting millions of lives. I think you guys are truly a power couple. Shout out to the wife. I don't know if she's in the background somewhere. Shout out to you for being a special person in our community and constantly showing up and figuring out ways to keep going. You know, it could have ended on those train tracks. It could have ended with Amendment 4. It could have ended with so many other things. It could have ended when you were named man of the Year. It could have ended with so many different things. But you Keep on thriving and pushing and going for the good of the people, for the good of humanity. And that's what the For Good podcast is about. It's about people that come on here and put themselves not last, but behind others because they understand that when you pour into people, you pour into yourself. And that's something that you truly represent, is you pour into people. So I want to thank you so much, Desmond Mead, for coming on the For Good podcast. And before we get out of here, I'd love for you to tell my subscribers, my watches, my people, my four gooders, where they can find you what you got going on and, you know, what you want to promote.
- [82:25]
A
Wow. Thank you so much, brother. And let me tell you, before I get into that, if nobody never told you this today, let me be the first to tell you. I love you, brother. I love.
- [82:35]
B
Thank you, brother. I love you. Thank you, brother. I love you.
- [82:37]
A
And so folks want to get a hold of me, man. They can reach me at Desmond Mead. I'm on all of the. I'm on all the different social media platforms, especially on Instagram, Desmond Mead44, Esmond Mead on X. On Facebook, Desmond Mead as well. And then my organization is Florida Rights Restoration Coalition. And folks can get my book. Let my people vote on Amazon. Please get my book. Hit me up. I'm open to interacting with anybody. And then, of course, my wife's organization is the Clean Slate Initiative for those who need a clear record. Remember, Clean Slate. Can't wait. My wife handled that.
- [83:14]
B
Sheena, me shout out to you guys. Shout out to the me family for everything you guys are doing. Make sure before we get out of here to hit that subscribe button. Drop some comments, let me know what you thought about this episode. This conversation was very impactful. This conversation was very real, deep and needed on the 4 Good podcast, where we focus on the good, never the bad, and we're measured by what we do, not what we have. Till next time, guys. It's your guy, Jojo Simmons. Desmond me signing out.
- [83:38]
A
Peace.