← For Good
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- [00:00]
A
If I need validation in order to feel confident, if I need somebody to come along and let me know I'm doing a good job or tell me I'm a good person or whatever it is right then I become validation junkie. I am in search for the next person who will tell me I'm okay. I need someone or something to come along and make me feel confident, then that's not confidence at all. The reality is that's how we've been conditioned. That's how we've been socialized. I had to start prioritizing the commitments I made to myself, even above the commitments I make to other people. Because as a woman, I have the tendency to prioritize the commitments I make to other people above myself. I was constantly breaking the commitments I made to myself. I wasn't taking care of myself the way I wanted to. I was letting that workout slide. I wasn't standing up for myself. And I needed to stop over committing. I needed my yes to be my yes, my no to be my no and my not yet or my maybe or I'll think about it to be okay too. When we don't communicate boundaries, we what we're often doing is putting somebody else's desires, needs, wants, wishes ahead of our own. And if we have people in our life who are constantly trying to mess with our confidence, I think one of the best boundaries we can employ is to consider how much access or if to give access to those people into our lives.
- [01:32]
B
What's good, everybody?
- [01:33]
C
It's your guy, JoJo Simmons, and I'm Vanessa Simmons.
- [01:36]
B
And welcome back to the For Good podcast where we focus on the good, never the bad. And we're measured by what we do, not what we have. Today we're talking about something that impacts how we show up in every area of our lives, our careers, our relationships, our parenting, our purpose. And that's confidence. Not surface level confidence, not the curated social media version, but the kind that's rooted, the kind that doesn't disappear when things get uncomfortable.
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C
Because confidence isn't just about speaking, speaking up, or being bold. It's about self trust. It's about knowing who you are without constantly needing reassurance. And for so many people, especially women, confidence can get tangled up in comparison, perfectionism, and the pressure to constantly prove yourself.
- [02:17]
B
And today we're joined by Nicole Khalil, a leadership coach, speaker, and the author of Validation Is for Parking, a book that challenges the idea that we need external approval to feel worthy or capable of. Her work focuses on helping people build confidence from the inside out instead of outsourcing it to likes, titles or applause.
- [02:34]
C
And she's also the host of this woman's work podcast where she has powerful conversations about ambition, leadership, identity, and what it really means to own your voice. Her perspective pushes back an outdated narrative about power and replaces them with something more healthy and groundable, more sustainable.
- [02:50]
B
Today, we're diving into imposter syndrome. Ego versus real. Confidence, boundaries, leadership, and how to stop waiting for validation before you move. Nicole, welcome to the Feel Good podcast. Thank you for coming on.
- [03:02]
C
Woo.
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A
That was an intro. I want to take you two with me everywhere I go. I'm so excited for this conversation.
- [03:09]
B
Thank you. You know, we pride ourselves now on our intros since from episode one, every guest has thanked us so much for the intros that we do do. I do have to give a shout out to my team that helps us curate that and make sure that we, we give you guys the right amount of applause and acknowledgement of who we're talking to. But also we want you to feel that we understand where you're coming from and that we love what you do and that every guest that we bring on here is intentional and you are a person that represents the four good universe in our opinion. We feel like you represent good in the world. So we definitely were so excited to get you on here today. So once again, welcome and we could jump right into it. So I wanna start with foundation. How do you define real confidence and how it is different from ego or arrogance?
- [03:56]
A
Confidence is something that's been misunderstood, misinterpreted and misused so often we don't even know what it is that we're talking about anymore. So when I began my confidence building journey, I geeked out and went to the etymology of the word, like the root of the word, how it, what it meant in Latin, how it translated to Middle English and all the other languages. And ultimately the word that is most closely associated with the word confidence is the word trust. And it's an elevated level, level of trust. Faith and belief pop up a lot too. But what we're ultimately talking about when we say confidence is firm and bold, trust in self. That is what confidence is. It's when we trust ourselves firmly and boldly. Now, what we have been taught about confidence is typically more about how to look confident versus how to be or become confident. And I think looking confident has sort of been hijacked with ego arrogance. And so I like to make the distinction. Ego and arrogance is when you feel like you're better than someone or everyone else. Insecurity is typically when you feel less than confidence doesn't require us to compare ourselves to anyone at all. If confidence is about firm and bold trust and self, it really doesn't involve anyone else. So I think just really understanding that confidence is an inside out proposition and it's something between you and you is really the distinguishing factor. Because when you think of ego and arrogance, it always involves other people and us feeling better.
- [05:35]
B
Then I love that. And I know Vanessa wants to jump in and ask a question and probably have some things towards that, but I love that answer. And for the. For a reason that I had just recently interviewed somebody, the episode isn't out yet, but we were talking about clean ego versus, I guess, dirty ego. Right. And dirty ego is the arrogance, you would say. And the clean ego is more of the confidence. It doesn't really involve anybody else, but it does involve you. It does involve you motivating yourself. It does involve you giving yourself those daily affirmations. That is ego that you do need to have. But it's an ego that's rooted in confidence, not an ego that's rooted in arrogance. So I love that you gave that. Because you kind of gave me the answer of instead of saying clean ego, it's really just confidence in yourself. So I love that. It was a great answer.
- [06:18]
C
No, yeah. I love that you went to the etymology of the word and really getting to the root of what it means and how it relates to trust, which is really a new language to me, honestly. And also how it's also related to faith, which I'm really, really faith based and big on, on my spirituality, my connection to God. And so it's interesting to know that confidence and faith go hand in hand. And, you know, having faith, I love that.
- [06:45]
A
Yeah. I think if we go the faith side, the way I often see it is trusting the God within us. You know, I feel like, you know, different religions believe different things, but I think God is everywhere, including inside each of us. If we were wonderfully made and God is within us, then I think there is that trust in self. And for those of us that are believers, it's trust that God is within us and speaking to us.
- [07:19]
C
So you talk about validation is for parking. Why do so many of us rely on external validation? And how do we actually break that habit?
- [07:29]
A
Yeah, I mean, the easiest answer is we've been socialized to rely on external things for our confidence. I call it the false equation of confidence. And it goes something like this. If X happens, then I'll Feel confident and you can fill an X with whatever you want. It's if I get the promotion or if I get a certain level of income or a certain amount of followers or likes on social media, if I see a certain number on the scale, if I have perfectly behaved children, the list goes on and on and on, right? If X happens, then I'll feel confident. And the problem with that is we then have outsourced our confidence. Our confidence is tied to something outside of us. And that is in its, in and of itself problematic. Because what happens is whenever it is that we get X, whatever X is for us, we feel temporarily confident. But then the feeling wears off. And what do we need More of?
- [08:28]
B
Confidence.
- [08:28]
A
So if we take validation as an example, if I need validation in order to feel confident, if I need somebody to come along and let me know I'm doing a good job or tell me I'm a good person or whatever it is, right? Yes, it'll feel good in the moment. There's nothing wrong with that. It feels good to get validation. But if my confidence is tied to it, if the only way I can trust myself is if somebody comes along and tells me that I can or that I should, then I'll feel good temporarily, the feeling will wear off, and then I become validation junkie. I am in search for the next person who will tell me I'm okay. And I think if you think about it that way, it's pretty easy to see how that's not confidence. If I need someone or something to come along and make me feel confident, then that's not confidence at all. But the reality is that's how we've been conditioned. That's how we've been socialized. You know, everybody knows we want to be and feel more confident. So products try to tell us if we buy this, we'll be more confident if we do this, if we achieve this and it's become ingrained and it is really caused us to outsource and seek our confidence outside of ourselves.
- [09:43]
B
But how do we break that habit?
- [09:45]
A
Ultimately, what we do is we change direction, shift course, and focus on building trust with and for ourselves. So I would invite you, the listener, to think about how you build trust with the people in your life. How do you choose the people that you trust? How do people choose to trust you? And whatever the answers are for you, that is the best place to start. So for me, I trust people who keep their commitments. I trust people who do what they say they're gonna do, say what they mean, mean what they say, type people. That's important to me. And so if that's important to me and I wanna build trust with myself, then I need to turn that inward. How do I keep the commitments I make to myself? Because as a woman, I have the tendency to prioritize the commitments I make to other people above myself. The commitments I make to my children, the commitments I make to my spouse, the people I work with. And then I also have the tendency to over commit. And so what I found is I was constantly breaking the commitments I made to myself. I wasn't taking care of myself the way I wanted to. I was letting that workout slide. I wasn't standing up for myself. I wasn't using my voice in the way I really wanted. And all of those things were serving to chip away at my own confidence. And so I had to make the decision whether or not my confidence was that important. And it is. So I had to start prioritizing the commitments I made to myself, even above the commitments I make to other people. And I needed to stop over committing. I needed my yes to be my yes, my no to be my no, and my not yet or my maybe or all think about it to be okay too. So that's an example. But there are a bazillion ways that we can build trust with and for ourselves. Speaking our truth, standing up for ourselves, setting boundaries, surrounding ourselves with people who support our confidence versus detract from it. Now, quick thing here. Nobody can give you confidence. Nobody can take it away. But there are definitely supporters and there are definitely detractors, right? So who we choose to surround ourselves with matters. But the list goes on and on. I would just start with how do you already build trust with the people in your life? And then how can you turn that inward? Because if we've been outsourcing our confidence, it's time to build it from the inside out, which is building firm and bold trust with self.
- [12:07]
B
You out here cooking. But I think we're only on question too. Now, I wanted to get into a word that a lot of people have been hearing. And, you know, it hasn't always been something people knew about. And I remember the first time me hearing somebody said that I had imposter syndrome. This was a few years ago when I started doing some public speaking and getting into mental health. And the person was like, you have imposter syndrome. And I thought it was like a slight at me, but it was actually like a compliment in a sense. It was like, you're really good at this, but you don't believe you're as good at that. So it shows up for a lot of people, as it did with me in the past, especially when they level up. Is imposter syndrome something we eliminate or something we learn to move with?
- [12:44]
A
I think it's a great question, and I think the answer is a little bit of both. I don't know if we can or should eliminate it altogether. I think doubt is a normal part of the human experience. And I also think we tend to use imposter syndrome maybe a little bit too much when something else is at play. But a few thoughts first. Number one, I am not an imposter syndrome expert, but as you might imagine, in my work with confidence, it comes up a lot. So I think I know enough to be dangerous. The research bears that the vast majority of people are experiencing imposter syndrome, with women and people of color at the highest levels. But this is not a unique thing. Very, very many of us are experiencing this. In fact, there's a recent study that I kind of love that says the only people that aren't experiencing imposter syndrome are most likely to be the imposters themselves. So it's a little bit of a lack of self awareness and all of that. But first, let me go back to what imposter syndrome is, or at least what I understand it to be. First, it's this thing that we do where we give credit externally if something good happens and we take the blame and make it our fault if something bad happens. And it's always that. There is also an element of feeling like no matter what the evidence proves, you're not enough, or there's something wrong or you're about to be found out, right? So it's in the face of alternate evidence. So sometimes I think people use it incorrectly. So, for example, if I'm new at a job or I'm starting a podcast, or I'm doing something I've never done before and I feel fear and doubt, that's not imposter syndrome. That's being new at something that's normal. If I am, you know, six years into podcasting and I'm getting a ton of downloads and a ton of great reviews, and I'm like, oh, God, I don't know if I can do this. Every episode that's great. It's because of my guest, and every episode that's wrong is because of me. That's imposter syndrome. So I think, to answer your question of do we eliminate or do we move through it, I think it really is both. But the answer really is back to building trust with self. And in order to trust yourself, you need to both know who you are and own who you're not.
- [15:18]
B
I like that. And so who you're not. I love that.
- [15:24]
A
Yeah. So I think sometimes with imposter syndrome, we think we're supposed to be all things to all people all the time. And when we fall short of that unreasonable, unattainable standard, we beat ourselves up, which is kind of crazy.
- [15:36]
C
I love how you broke it down because there's so much talk about imposter syndrome, and I feel like some people really don't understand entirely what it is and what it isn't. And that really made us understand in a way that we can digest and, you know, move accordingly and know what's going on with ourselves. I love that.
- [15:53]
A
Let me just add one thing that I forgot to mention. I think sometimes imposter syndrome is used to blame the individual versus a culture or a collective. And so I do want to be careful. The antidote to imposter syndrome in a professional organization is belonging. And if you work in a culture, an environment, or there's, you know, toxic leaders or whatever, that will not create an environment where you can belong. One of the things that is, I think, dangerous is oftentimes we have the individual saying, well, I have imposter syndrome. And it's like, no, you just work in a crap culture, you know, So I want to be careful that we don't focus on the individual when sometimes it's the culture or leadership at play.
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C
The environment.
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A
Yes.
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B
Great add in. Great add in.
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C
So for women specifically, I find that being too much confidence is often misinterpreted. Being too much. How do you encourage women to own their power without shrinking to make other people feel comfortable?
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B
Yeah.
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A
So I have a quote, literally, that I'm looking at right now in front of me that says, you will be too much for some people. Those aren't your people. And that's just what I constantly tell myself, this idea that somebody else gets to to decide my level of enoughness or too muchness or whatever. It's just crazy because there's always somebody with an opinion, and there is no standard measurement. One person's gonna think one thing, another is gonna think another. And if we're going back to confidence, what matters most is what I think of myself. Am I being true to myself? Am I being authentic? Am I showing up fully and I can't do anything about anyone else's opinions? One of the things that gets in the way of confidence is people pleasing. And I think we all do that. But women especially, we've been socialized to we, you know, be others focused.
- [17:53]
C
Right.
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A
We've been taught to be nurturing, to take care of. And so we're so used to reading the room and like paying attention to other people's thoughts and feelings that I think we sometimes forget that what we think, how we feel about ourselves did what I did or how I showed up, does that make me proud? That's probably the only measurement that really matters. So I don't know. You know, I wish I had a clean answer of like, how to be just right, like Goldilocks.
- [18:26]
B
That was literally the perfect. It brings me back to this one time, and I love that you gave me that answer because it was a couple years ago, I was in LA and I was walking in the bank, you know, I was really, really good mood, really confident that they really feeling good. And I had a lot of energy. I was a little bit loud, had a lot of energy. And I walked in and the security was like, you're a little too much. And I got my money and I walked down and I said, no, I'm just a little too much for you. I'm not a little too much for me. I'm feeling great. Right. So I love how you kind of gave that answer. It's how you feel. It's not how somebody else interprets you. It's not how somebody else puts a judgment on you. It's like when somebody's wearing a nice outfit that they feel good. And then somebody says, well, I don't like that outfit. Well, that person that said that isn't wearing that outfit. You're the one wearing that outfit. And you shouldn't let your confidence diminish when somebody says they don't like what you're wearing. You liked how you looked when you first walked out the house. So keep that confidence in what you were wearing and let that person, they didn't like it, let them feel that way. You don't gotta wear it. I'm wearing it and I feel good. Right. So I love how you.
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A
Exactly right.
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C
Yeah. No, and just to not internalize that and let that run your confidence, like the authenticity is enough and that is where the confidence is living.
- [19:35]
A
Exactly right.
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C
The authenticity of you.
- [19:37]
A
Yeah, yeah. I'll also add too, just a loving reminder that judgment, our judgment, other people's judgment, always gives us more insight into the person judging than the person being judged. Always. It gives us insight into their beliefs, their values, their Perspectives, their experiences. So if we go back to that security guard, that person thinking you're too much gives us insight into him or her, not into you in that moment. And I would also add, this is not my line, but it's a good one and I've barred it on more than a few occasions. If somebody says you're too much, then I think a great response is, okay, great, go find less. If I'm too much, then go find less.
- [20:22]
B
Drop it in the comments, subscribers. If anybody tells you you're too much, tell them to go find less. I love that. I love that. Make sure y' all drop that in the comments. Tell me if you needed that, because that was a good one.
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C
Love it.
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B
Now I want to talk about how much confidence is built through actual or action versus mindset. Do we think our way into confidence or behave our way into it?
- [20:47]
A
So I would be lying if there wasn't. If I didn't say that there is an interconnection. You can't find a confident or successful person that won't tell you that mindset matters, right? Of course it does. But as it relates to confidence, it's pretty clear the evidence really supports this, that action builds confidence. We don't think hope, fingers and toes cross our way into it. We build confidence through action. One foot in front of the other toward what matters most. And I think oftentimes we think it needs to be big, bold, meaningful action in order for it to count. And again, the evidence is really clear. Even the smallest action. Now, I want to be careful. It's not action for the sake of action. It's thinking about what matters most. What is it that you want? What are you trying to achieve? And even if it's the smallest step towards that action, it will build confidence. It proves, it reinforces, it establishes and reestablishes trust over and over again. That's how we build confidence.
- [21:52]
B
Great answer. Great answer. Definitely build confidence through action. Like me, I say the gym is life's cheat code because I feel like me waking up every morning and doing that action, being active for not only my physical body but my mental, it just makes me want to attack the world in a different way when I put that action to it. Right. So I totally agree. It was a great answer for sure.
- [22:17]
A
Vanessa, I'm going to be curious about your opinion on this because I find as a woman, working out exercise, going to the gym, that was a really tricky one for me as it related to confidence because we get all this messaging about, you know, looking good and it was, I was like, I didn't want to believe that working out and exercise would build confidence because it always felt to me as a woman about my looks and how skinny I was going to be and blah, blah, losing weight. It was only until I switched it over to this is about me keeping a commitment to myself. This is about me prioritizing my mental and physical health. This is about me saying I matter and doing something about it. That's when it fell into the confidence building game for me. It's when I took it away from the results in the physical and, and the look, put it into this trust building, feeling strong, feeling proud of myself category that I really bought into it. And it again, I'm sure you both can rel. Vanessa, as another woman, I'm curious your thoughts on that.
- [23:26]
C
Yeah, I find that in the beginning of this year I stopped, you know, holding myself to too much. So sometimes I would skip the gym because, you know, oh, I didn't have the right plan in place for the weightlifting or I didn't have a trainer. And so I would skip the days and I switched the mindset to showing up for myself, whether it just even be taking a walk around the block, you know, moving my body. And that has helped build my confidence over the months when I felt like out of control and I'm just missing the gym and missing that commitment, it like builds up and it's like, okay, so I'm not showing up for myself here. I'm not showing up for myself here. And my confidence was taking a hit where I switched the mindset at the beginning of the year. It's like, even if you go and you walk on the treadmill for 15 minutes, it is enough. And I see a difference in the way I show up in the world, the way I'm showing up at home and. And just the way I'm showing up for myself. So the gym is definitely a confidence builder, but not so much for the results as much as it is for, like, my mental and the clarity that I get after doing it and how good I feel for showing up for myself because as I get older, it's just something that I need to do. I need to move my body. It's directly related to those feel good endorphins and the things that just make us, you know, feel good throughout our day. So, yeah, I've had to switch the mindset over the years and move it away from, oh, I need to be the baddest, I need to look the best to this is. This is Something for me and a commitment for myself to better myself, if that makes sense.
- [25:00]
A
Same. Same for me.
- [25:02]
B
Can I jump in? And I just want to say this. And I love that you brought that up, Nicole. And great answer, Vanessa. And this is for any woman that's listening that has that question or any man that's listening that has that question. Yes. When I first started the gym, it was like everybody else. It was the comparison mindset is what I call it. We all have envisioned somebody that we feel we need to look like when we go in the gym and we feel like we're failing if we don't reach that goal. But I promise, anybody that is starting the gym or anybody that is in the gym, it is more about feeling good than looking good. You will eventually look good after you feel good. I promise. You will do the research, you will do the right workouts, you will find out what to eat. All of these things make you feel better. You're talking to a guy that ate McDonald's for breakfast, lunch and dinner as a teen.
- [25:45]
A
Yeah.
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B
And yes, I started the gym. I want muscles. I want to look like Vin Diesel and all those other guys in the Rock. But then I stopped chasing that and I started chasing self confidence like we talking about here. I started chasing what makes me happy. I started saying, I'm checking in with myself. I started holding myself accountable and, and not looking for reactions, not looking for opinions, not looking for somebody saying, oh, you look great. Because as much as somebody can tell you look good and make you feel good, they can tell you you look bad and make you feel bad. So once you stop letting people dictate how you feel, not how you look, but how you feel, you'll understand that the gym is for you and you only. It is your journey. It is nobody else's journey. It is nobody's journey to say you need to have a six pack and be £90. It is your journey to feel good. I know people that aren't that may not look like they are in the best shape, but they feel like they're in the best shape and they know they're in the best shape because they are on a journey with themselves and they're not on a journey with anybody else. So that's just the only thing I wanted to drop as a boost of confidence for a subscriber out there, a listener, a watcher about the gym is it's about feeling good first. I want you to feel good first. And the look good aspect will always come into that. That's how it. That's how it works. It goes hand in hand, you know.
- [27:02]
C
Okay, that was good, Joe. Yeah.
- [27:05]
A
And you just demonstrated confidence right there because it is an inside out. You do it for you and then, yes, it will have external results, but it's inside out. And we are so used to doing it the other way around. So, yeah, I mean, and speaking of
- [27:22]
C
the gym and comparison, comparison is absolutely amplified in the social media era. So what are some practical tools that you can give us to stay grounded? Yeah, let me rephrase that. What are some practical tools that you can give us to stay grounded in our own lane?
- [27:45]
A
Yeah, so, you know, I said this already, but just a reminder that confidence doesn't have us or require us to compare ourselves to anyone at all. And yet we live in the real world where we can fall into that trap so easily. And social media is an environment for that. I mean, I can get on and be in the comparison trap within seconds and I'm aware that it's problematic and that it's probably going to happen. There are lots of things that we can do. We can create boundaries around our social media, use who we follow. There are a lot of things that we can do there. But one of the confidence builders I often talk about that I think is really great when you find yourself in the comparison trap, is a reminder that confidence is a choice more than it is a feeling. I think most of us think confidence is a feeling. Either I feel confident or I don't, and therefore I can do this, this thing or I can't. We get in on social media and we feel our confidence slipping. Confidence is a choice that we can make moment by moment if we have to. And we do this far more frequently than I think we give ourselves credit for. If we're having a bad day and have to go pick up our kids as an example, we often clean ourselves up. Or if we had a bad meeting and we have to go into a next meeting, we often pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, get back into action towards what matters most. And so recognizing when we're doing it is another thing. But I just. We hear the expression a lot in business. Fake it till you make it. And it might sound like semantics, but I don't particularly love that phrase. I would replace it with choose it until you become it. Choose confidence moment by moment, if you have to, until the feeling catches up. So if you find yourself in that comparison trap on social media, choose confidence. What does that look like? Remind yourself of what you have accomplished. Focus on what you're grateful for. Talk about your wins. Ask yourself, what. What does this tell me about me? What is it letting me know I desire or giving me insight into something that's important to me? Or is it this letting me know that this thing that I want that this other person is doing is actually possible? That's exciting, right?
- [30:05]
C
We.
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A
We have to flip the script. We have to reframe our thoughts in those moments. We gotta choose confidence versus letting ourselves fall into that comparison trap.
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B
Wow. I need my subscribers or our subscribers to write in the comments. Don't fake it until you make it. Choose it until you become it. I love that you're dropping gems on. You're dropping a lot of gems on us that I'm taking mental notes and I'm gonna steal some of your one liners there and I'm gonna go out there.
- [30:33]
A
I love it.
- [30:34]
C
Steal away. I love. Confidence is a choice because you never think about it like that. You think that it's innate. You think that you get it from different scenarios, but it truly is an internal choice to just walk in and your authenticity. So all of this is resonating so well, like always.
- [30:52]
B
Always. Every episode feels like a therapy session for Vanessa and I. So thank you for bringing us to another one. Always.
- [30:58]
A
I can relate.
- [31:00]
B
Now you work with high level leaders and executives. What was the most common confidence struggle you see behind closed doors with those people?
- [31:08]
A
Yeah. So first and foremost, I think that they struggle with confidence as much as anyone else. I think sometimes we think of these uber successful, highly capable leaders and we think they have it figured out. We think they must be more confident than we are. They must feel 100% confident 100% of the time. And let me be clear on this, the only person who feels 100% confident 100% of the time are narcissists. And we obviously don't want to emulate that. So I think the thing that I would say is they're just like everyone else. They're struggling with fear and doubt. They're making things up about their failures that don't serve them. They just tend to be doing it on a grander scale and on a bigger scale and with bigger things. So the themes might be the same, but the situations are bigger because they've practiced their way out of the small stuff. So the best example I can give you is sometimes people will say to me, like, how can you speak on a stage in front of thousands of people? My answer is always, well, I didn't start in front of thousands of people. I started in a training room. With three people, I was nervous as all get out. I over prepared, over contented. It was madness. But I practiced and I learned and I grew. And then a hundred people didn't really make me all that nervous. And then a thousand people. And as it gets bigger, I still have fear, I still have doubt, I still don't do it perfectly. I still have growth opportunities and lessons, learnings. It's just the stage got bigger, the opportunity feels greater. But the things that are chipping away my confidence and the things that I can focus on that build my confidence are the same. And that is true, at least from my experience. And most of the highly successful leaders, entrepreneurs that you know and see out
- [33:07]
B
in the world, thank you for that. You know, you said something important to me that resonates with me and I did it for years and I finally was able to let it go probably a year or two ago. But making things up about my failures, that didn't serve me right. We lean so much into our failures and the different parts of them and what it did to us and when we really just need to move on and really just be confident with our next moves and our next steps. And it's good to hear that some of these high level earners, high level executives, have dealt with that too. And deal with that too. On my way to being successful, it's good to know that I'm taking the same roadblocks those guys are taking. Right? So thank you for letting me know that. It really resonated with me.
- [33:49]
A
Yeah. And let me add too, as it relates to failure, a loving reminder that failure is a neutral event. I get that it doesn't feel neutral when you are the one experiencing it, but it's still a neutral event and we are the ones that are bringing meaning to that event. How do I know this? We could line up 10 people and have them experience the exact same set of circumstances and we'd get 10 different interpretations, 10 different perspectives of that same event. Some people would feel like they need to curl up in the fetal position and give up. And some people would be like, eh, no big deal. And if that's true, if you buy into that for even a second, then we have the opportunity to choose a different narrative. We get to pick a more productive, more empowered interpretation of any event. What if instead of seeing it as a dismal failure, what if you chose to see it as a lesson, a gift, an opportunity, A one door closes, so many others can open a redirect unanswered prayer. I mean, there's so many ways that we can choose to see an event, but we often default to the negative and we often default to making us, ourselves, wrong and bad. And I would just invite you to at least open your mind to an alternate possibility. What is the more productive, empowered way to see that? And then how do you get into action from there?
- [35:14]
C
How do, how would you say that confidence evolves in different seasons of our lives? Like, say, whether it be from motherhood or career pivot or even personal reinvention,
- [35:24]
A
I would say it evolves and evolves. Right? Like it's, it's never steps forward. Some steps back, when I became a mom, I. My confidence was shook. And I still have. I mean, I. I don't know. I.
- [35:41]
C
If I.
- [35:41]
A
Some parent tried to tell me that they were confident as a parent all of the time, I would not believe them. I. I think that's probably the area of our lives that's really the hardest because it's the most meaningful, it matters the most to us. And so, you know, just that loving reminder that it is and only ever always be a journey. The trust we build with and for ourselves is going to ebb and flow and as new opportunities, relationships, circumstances get introduced into the mix. And trust me, they will, whether you want them to or not. Life has a funny way of doing that. We get to rebuild, repair, grow that trust we have with and for ourselves, given those new set of circumstances. So, I don't know, it evolves, it devolves. You're moving forward, you're moving backwards, and that's just all part of it. But as I said, you know, I kind of think about it like, how do you climb Mount Everest? That seems big and insurmountable. The answer is one step at a time. And sometimes there's an avalanche, and sometimes you need to stop, and sometimes you might slide a little backward and you keep climbing.
- [36:58]
B
Great comparison. That was a really good comparison. You really painted that narrative for me. Sometimes life like Mount Everest, climbing Mount Everest. You know, it's gonna be slippery, it's gonna be some avalanches, but you gotta take it one step at a time to get to the top. So great, great, great comparison. Now I wanna talk about boundaries. We know everybody loves the word boundaries. What role do boundaries play in confidence? Is saying no actually one of the strongest confidence muscles we can build?
- [37:27]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think boundaries are imperative when it comes to our confidence. Again, because when we don't have boundaries and when we don't communicate boundaries, what we're often doing is putting somebody else's Desires, needs, wants, wishes ahead of our own. We're letting somebody else be in control of really everything. And so it's necessary, it's imperative, and it's hard. And so it requires practice. I think it's, again, being true to ourselves, really narrowing our focus of what really matters most and what we need to do to build trust. And if we have people in our life that are constantly trying to poke at our own trust, who are constantly trying to mess with our confidence, I think one of the best boundaries we can employ is to consider how much access or if to give access to those people into our lives. So there are lots of examples and lots of ways. But to answer your question directly, I just don't see how we can build confidence without setting boundaries.
- [38:31]
B
That's a fact. That's a fact. Yeah, for sure. Especially boundaries from the people that don't make us feel good. Right. Like you said, it's the people you're around. Definitely plays a part in your confidence as well. So boundaries is a huge word in that one.
- [38:46]
C
Yeah.
- [38:46]
A
I will also add, in my experience, we can also outgrow people without making them bad or without making their relationship bad. There are some people that I think back, and I'm so grateful for who they were in my life at the time that I needed them that I haven't talked to in years. And is it a boundary? Yes. Was it a hard boundary? It just sort of evolved that way. But it's okay to outgrow people. That doesn't necessarily mean that they were toxic or bad or whatever. But, like, our confidence, we evolve too, and our relationships will as well.
- [39:25]
B
I love the difference between hard boundaries and just boundaries. Right. That's. That's.
- [39:30]
C
Yeah, I love that. So. But I do have a question for people who were raised to be humble or accommodating or quiet. How do you rewire those narratives without feeling guilty?
- [39:44]
A
Yeah. So, again, really challenging. As somebody who has never been quiet a day in their life, I have to, like, have some empathy over here. But I do think that you can be both humble and. And confident. Again, if confidence is about firm and bold trust in self, then I think what we're faced with is more what people expect us to look and be like. When they think of confidence versus actually being confident, does that make sense? Like, what we're facing is more people's expectations or their definition of what confidence looks like versus us being clear about who we are when we're being confident. So I am an extreme introvert, like, really extreme. And I often show up in extroverted work. And I have to be really, you know, mindful about that. But all of that to say is I don't show up loud in the like, charismatic, boisterous. I always have an opinion, I've always been willing to share it. But like the sort of loud, charismatic, it doesn't fit me. And so I've had to figure out like, how do I navigate trusting myself and having who I am and owning who I'm not be part of this equation and how do I represent myself in a way that I feel proud of? So if being confident and being humble is important to you, then go for it. Then you be the representation of that. Lord knows we need it in the world. We have enough of this overtly obnoxious, you know, expression of power and confidence being interlinked. And I just don't, I don't know if it always. What I see mostly when I see like these uber confident people is, is typically a lot of mass insecurities.
- [41:46]
B
Yeah, yeah, agreed, agreed, agreed. Now, talking about confidence, I know we're all parents here. You said you have a kid, Vanessa has a kid, I have kids. So how do we raise confident kids in a world that constantly measures them by performance and comparison? And this is a great question because my daughter is 10 and she's at that stage where there's a little bit of comparison. She's going to school, she's seeing this girl has this type of hair, or this girl has this height, or this girl has this. So how do we raise confident kids in a world that constantly measures them by performance in comparison?
- [42:18]
C
That's good.
- [42:20]
A
Yes, it is good. I have a 12 year old daughter and I'm wrestling with this myself. So I have a few, I'm at the 12 stage, very preteen. It is all.
- [42:32]
C
Yes, yes.
- [42:34]
A
So first, all humans, children, adults, we all learn best via experience and observation. We can tell people things till we're blue in the face. The way we learn best is through actual experience and actual observation. And so I would submit to you that the best way we can raise confident kids is to be and become confident ourselves. We need to demonstrate it on a regular basis so they experience and observe it so much that they don't know anything different. Now that doesn't mean having all the answers or doing it right. That's perfectionism. We don't want to model that because that is the enemy of confidence. What we want to model is trusting ourselves, making mistakes, repairing, recovering, learning, growing authenticity, being ourselves. There's so many things but you know, I know as a parent, I would love to be able to best bestow confidence on my child. But the reality is we've gotta start with ourselves as their closest and best model. That's the first thing. The second thing is if confidence is about trust, then I think we as parents, the best thing that we can do is focus on the efforts even more than the results. So as an example, my daughter plays basketball. She loves it. I tend to focus on when she's being a good teammate, when she worked really hard, when she learned or did something well that she'd been struggling with in the past. Yes, it's exciting when they win games. Yes, it's exciting if she shoots a three pointer and makes it. But if we only ever focus on the result, the win, the perfection, then I think we strip away confidence in our children, focus on the effort, the risks that they take. Oh, I'm so proud of you for doing that thing that scared you. Doesn't matter how it turned out. They did something that scared them. Doesn't matter if it seems scary to you or not. They did something that scared them. They took a risk, let's acknowledge it. So focusing on the things they can control and the effort that they put in even more than the outcome and the results. And the last thing is, I think we do have to do a better job asking better questions. How did you feel about yourself in that situation? Versus I feel proud of you. Of course I feel proud of my kid when she does, but how did she feel? I want to connect her with her own experiences, with her wanting to feel certain ways with her, recognizing how she feels when she does certain things or makes certain choices. So asking questions like that and asking how does that outfit make you feel? Versus oh, that makes you look so pretty or why did you choose that color? Or I don't know, just focusing a little bit more on the who they are and how they feel and who they're becoming and less on how they look, what they achieve and what the results show.
- [45:48]
B
Great, that's great answer. Great answer. I love, don't tell them to be confident. Show confidence and they'll follow suit. I love that.
- [45:56]
A
Yeah, and it's messy.
- [45:59]
C
Good, solid advice. Especially raising a 12 year old right now. You want them as much in touch with themselves as possible to feel their best. So I really love that. I'll definitely take that, that tidbit with me as I am navigating through the pre teen stage of life over here.
- [46:16]
A
Oh, it's real.
- [46:17]
C
It is so real. Now for our listeners, if there is someone out there who is feeling stuck or doubting themselves, what is just one practical tool you can give them this week that they can start to just start feeling more confident from the inside out?
- [46:34]
A
My initial answer would be to go to that question of how do you build trust with other people? Whatever the answer is, turn it inward. Identify one way that you can do that with and for yourself so, you know, keep a commitment. Would be a good example to yourself. If you said you're going to move your body, move your body. You said you're going to drink more water, drink more water. If you said you're going to hold a boundary, hold that boundary for this week. And don't be afraid to start small again. Little risks, little actions built up over time lead to big confidence.
- [47:17]
B
I love that.
- [47:17]
C
Love that. Yeah. Just small, intentional steps.
- [47:20]
A
Yeah.
- [47:21]
B
Amazing. Amazing. Well, Nicole Khalil, we really appreciate you coming on the full Go podcast. It seems like that was the last question, but I do want to give you, like we give every guest here, your four good flowers. No, they're not physical flowers. The more words of encouragement coming from myself and Vanessa. So I do want to thank you once again for coming on this podcast and all the work that you are doing when it comes to knowing about confidence, knowing what, how it affects you every day on an everyday basis, and what it can really do for somebody that really feels confident with themselves and doesn't let the confidence come from anything else but a love for themselves. So I really pray and hope that anybody that was listening or watching this got a little boost of self confidence today by listening to what you brought to the table because you dropped a lot of great gems on us. You had me at the edge of my seat and I really appreciate all the work and research that you are doing in the world of confidence and just boosting people up to make people feel better. Vanessa, do you want to add to those flowers?
- [48:19]
C
Yes, I want to add to those flowers. This conversation is so important. I took so much from it today. I know our viewers are going to appreciate it because we need to be having these conversations what true confidence is and how we can move forward in that, especially in the age of social media. We got into some really good topics and I appreciate your research and your work and I know that our viewers will love it too. So giving you all the flowers.
- [48:44]
A
Thank you. And thank you both for such an incredible conversation and for both doing good and providing good out into the world. It is so needed and I'm so honored to have been a guest on your show. So thank you.
- [48:58]
B
Thank you so much. Before we get out of here, we definitely have to have you tell the people where can they find you and what do you have coming up? If you have anything coming up you want people to know about, please use this platform to tell us.
- [49:10]
A
Yeah, so nicolecalil.com is the best way to find me and everything. I will also send you a link free for your listeners. I have a 40 plus page confidence building workbook that they can download for free that walks through what I call the confidence derailers and the confidence builders and hits on a lot of the exercises and opportunities we talked about today. And then the last thing is my podcast is called this is woman's work. 15% of our listeners are men who earn a special spot in my blanket fort. Any man who listens to a podcast called this is Woman's Work is my kind of human. But those are the best places to find and follow me.
- [49:49]
B
I love it. I love it. Make sure you guys are watching this. Watching and listening. This is Woman's Work. And once again, thank you, Nicole Khalil for coming on the For Good podcast with me and my co host, Vanessa. This is the four good. Oh, make sure I gotta make sure I let the people know to hit that subscribe button, hit that like button. If you like this conversation, drop some comments. In the comments tell us how you felt about this conversation. I felt like this conversation, like Vanessa said, is very needed in today's world. You know, especially in all the other topics we talk about when it comes to suicide and people just not, you know, feeling good. This is, this is a very pivotal, pivotal conversation for us to be having about having self confidence and it really affecting all those things. So make sure you guys hit that subscribe button, hit that like button, hit us in the comments and we will see you next time on the For Good podcast where we focus on the good, never the bad. And we're measured by what we do, not what we have. It's your guy, Jojo Simmons. It's Vanessa Simmons and our new friend, Nicole Khalil. We'll see you guys next time on the For Good podcast. Peace.
- [50:49]
A
Bye guys.