← For Good
Loading summary
Transcript169 lines
- [00:02]
Dr. Mark Brackett
I'm gonna pull over and ask that man for directions. Hi there. We're looking to get to the campground. Well, you're gonna take a left at the old oak tree end of this here road. No, I'm just kidding. Let me get my phone out. How are you getting a signal out here? T Mobile and US Cellular decided to merge. So the network out here is huge. We're getting the same great signal as the city and saving a boatload with all the benefits. Oh, and a five year price guarantee. Okay, here's those directions. Actually, can you point us in the direction of a T Mobile store?
- [00:29]
JoJo Simmons
America's best network just got bigger. Switch to T Mobile today and get built in benefits the other guys leave
- [00:36]
Dr. Mark Brackett
out plus our five year price guarantee.
- [00:39]
JoJo Simmons
And now T Mobile is available in US Cellular stores.
- [00:45]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Best mobile network based on analysis by Oogle of Speedtest Intelligence data 2H2025. Bigger network. The combination of T Mobile's and US cellular network footprints will enhance the T Mobile network's coverage price guarantee on talk text and data exclusions like taxes and fees apply ct t mobile.com for details. And his wife calls me and she's like, mark, I can't take your follower anymore. He's angry all the time. You know, he's, you know, she's not using these words, but like, he's dysregulated, you know, And I'm like, oh yeah, I remember those days. So I do a road trip to visit him and I sit with my father at a coffee shop and I'm like, hey dad, you know what's going on? And I can't take it anymore. Like, what do you mean, like, what can't you take anymore? Well, she has grandkids and her kids. He thinks his kids are successful. He didn't think her kids were successful and so they needed help. I mean, my father grew up, as I said, poor in New York City. His father was totally dysregulated. I mean, my father had like cigarette burns on his body from his father, like telling his son to, you know, shut up or whatever it was. So what the hell did my father learn about how to be a father? You know, he had no education. That's part of why I think that, you know, this has to be taught in schools because we can teach kids these strategies as they relate to learning history, dealing with math, physical education, playground behavior. Like, these are opportunities to teach kids skills and strategies and it works.
- [02:12]
JoJo Simmons
Well, good. Everybody, it's your guy, JoJo Simmons. And welcome back to the 4 Good podcast where we focus on the good, never the bad. And we're measured by what we do, not what we have. Today I'm sitting down with Dr. Mark Brackett, psychologist, author, professor at Yale and the founding director of the Yale center for emotional intelligence. Dr. Brackett is one of the leading voices in the world when it comes to emotional intelligence. How our emotions shape our decisions, our relationships, our mental health, and how we show up for the people around us. He's the author of the best selling book Permission to Feel and the creator of the Ruler framework, which is being used in schools, families, and communities around the world to help people better understand and regulate their emotions. Today, we're talking about emotional intelligence, healing, masculinity, fatherhood, leadership, and what it truly means to do good, not just for ourselves, but for the next generation. Dr. Brackett, welcome to the For Good podcast, brother. Thank you for coming on.
- [03:05]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Yeah, thank you for having me. We got a lot to talk about.
- [03:08]
JoJo Simmons
Oh, I'm excited. I'm excited. You know, on the For Good podcast, I always make it a thing to have intentional conversations about things that I feel like people need to hear in the world. So, like, you represent the For Good universe, as I like to say, with everybody that we bring on here. So let's get into it, you know, before the titles and the books and Yale, Obviously, who is Dr. Mark Brackett as a person and what experience has shaped the work you do today?
- [03:33]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Yeah, well, how much time you got?
- [03:36]
JoJo Simmons
We got some time. We got some time.
- [03:39]
Dr. Mark Brackett
You know, it's funny because, you know, I'm 56 now. Like you said, I'm good brother. Thank you. I'm this professor, you know, at Yale, but I grew up in New Jersey. Two parents, both good people. I wouldn't say either one of them went to the School of Emotional Intelligence. You know, my father was a tough guy, so called, from the Bronx. You know, his thing was like, soon you got to toughen up. And my mom had a lot of anxiety and so just, you know, not really anywhere to talk about emotions. And unfortunately, I was abused by my parents best friend. And so happened for five years of my childhood. And I didn't talk about it and. Because you don't talk about things like that and. But my. The. The positive to the story is that my mother had a brother, Uncle Marvin. He was a teacher by day and a trumpet player by night. And he happened to be writing a curriculum to teach kids about feelings when I was a teenager. And he saved my life and gave me a career.
- [04:44]
JoJo Simmons
I love it. I love it. So, you know, all of the things that you've been through has led you to this work and to obviously helping others. So I'm loving it. Now I want to talk about your book. Your book is called Permission to Feel. Why do so many. Yeah, I want to talk about why do so many people, especially men, feel like they don't have permission to feel?
- [05:07]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Yeah, I think, you know, when I wrote Permission to Feel, I was talking a little bit about my own story about not sharing what was happening to me, the fear of disclosing it, the societal kind of like, you know, don't play with Mark because he's spoiled goods kind of thing. And I've learned now, you know, as a psychologist that, you know, I'm not alone. You know, boys don't cry. You know, suck it up, toughen up. And, you know, the truth is, you know, you got feelings. Am I right?
- [05:38]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah.
- [05:39]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Yeah. But did you grow up in a community that was like, let's talk about our feelings? Rubber?
- [05:45]
JoJo Simmons
Nope, not at all. Especially not men. Not boys for sure.
- [05:49]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Exactly. But yet you have them anyway. So what do you learn to do with them? Repress them, drink them, drug them, yell, scream, be aggressive, or just lock yourself in your room and like, secretly do stuff and cry? Your feelings have to go somewhere. And so my job, my whole career is based on trying to figure out ways to do it across communities to help people have permission to feel so that you don't have to feel trapped with these feelings, you can learn, you know, what to do with them so that you can have well being, have good relationships, make good choices, you know, in big ways, achieve your goals in life.
- [06:30]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, well, you know, you know, I think it's important because you've brought it up twice and obviously I just kind of doubled down on boys especially. Haven't had those spaces. Especially as kids young. We never really got to understand our feelings or speak about them. So I want to talk about growing up, many of us taught that being a man is being tough, silent and unaffected. But how does that definition, masculinity, impact men emotionally?
- [06:57]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Well, what happens is that, you know, you've heard of this concept, toxic masculinity.
- [07:01]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah.
- [07:02]
Dr. Mark Brackett
You know, it also, just to be blunt, you know, breeds homophobia. And not even if you're gay. Right. It's just more along the lines of, like, society has doomed homosexuality as feminine. And therefore, if I'm a dude who talks about feelings, I'm feminine, therefore people are going to think I'm gay. You know, truth is, you know, 7% of the population is gay. Whether they talk about their feelings or not. You know, it's like, it's not. Nothing causes you to be gay, but yet it's a mindset that our culture has created. Like, you're not tough if you talk about feelings. And I think it's the opposite, to be frank, you know, that, you know, especially whether you're gay, straight, or anything in between, you know, partners, husbands, wives want partners who, you know, are able to, like, talk about stuff. Because what happens if you don't do that? You don't have a real relationship. Yeah. You know, you can't be in a real relationship with someone that you can talk about emotions with.
- [08:01]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah. You know, I just had an interview yesterday with this lovely, lovely woman, Vienna Farren, and she talks about relationships and understanding the other person and understanding that, like, if you're. If you're guarding yourself in a relationship, then you can never truly communicate successfully in your relationship, whether it's a friendship or a love relationship. It's hard for you to communicate successfully if you're keeping yourself guarded and not being able to talk about your feelings and how you feel. You know what I mean?
- [08:29]
Dr. Mark Brackett
So you 100% agree that?
- [08:31]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, for sure.
- [08:32]
Dr. Mark Brackett
And the truth is that it's all socialized. So, like, you're not, like, you know, I love Lady Gaga, but you're not born that way. You know, boy. You know, boys aren't born to repress their feelings, and girls aren't born to talk about their feelings.
- [08:46]
JoJo Simmons
Right.
- [08:47]
Dr. Mark Brackett
We just grew up in a society where all of a sudden, from very early on, the messages are like, son, you know, toughen up, son. Suck it up, son. You don't talk about that, you know, and, you know, girls, their parents talk to them more about feelings when they grow up. But I was, you know, I give a lot of public speaking engagements, and guys are generally, like, a little, like. I wouldn't say intimidated, but they're a little like, gosh, you know, like, you really are vulnerable. You know, I share about my childhood sexual abuse. I share about my struggles. And they. They say things like, you know, I could never tell my own son I was bullied. You know, like, you. And I said, why? And they say, well, my son would think I was weak. And so you see how the whole thing is, like, talking about feelings is weak. Telling the truth about your bullying is weak. Right. And I think that's what we have to figure out, how to manage that. I said to this dude, this father, I said, well, what if your son is being bullied right now. What if your kid is actually being bullied in school right now and, like, doing behaviors that would make you really upset and, you know, for himself, you know, et cetera. But he's getting the message because you're like, son, toughen up. That he can't share what's happening to him. How does that make you feel?
- [10:07]
JoJo Simmons
Right?
- [10:07]
Dr. Mark Brackett
And then all of a sudden, you know, it's like, I would hate my kid not to be able to come talk to me about something traumatic.
- [10:13]
JoJo Simmons
Right.
- [10:14]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Well. Well, then you got to create that. You got to open the door. You got to be the role model.
- [10:19]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, I love that. I love how you use that example, too. Like, you have to open the door because all because you're trying to look tough in front of your son. You're telling him that he can't open up his feelings, and he always needs to be tough when he just want just probably talk to dad, and he's already thinking, dad's kind of standoffish to it because he doesn't care about his feelings.
- [10:36]
Dr. Mark Brackett
So.
- [10:36]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, I understand that. I definitely understand that. But what. What happens to a person or even a society when emotions are ignored instead of understood?
- [10:45]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Well, look at our country right now. Yeah, it's not a good place for people, especially kids. You know, it's like, it seems like we have a society right now that doesn't think that how kids feel matters. I mean, we figure we can just do what we want. The kids. I mean, that's a sick society, in my opinion. So if I had it my way, government policies, leaders would be required to figure out how what they're saying and doing and their policies are impacting kids. Healthy development. That's my. Yeah, that's a big goal. That's kind of massive goal. But, you know, I can't control the government. I can vote or I can do whatever I want to do, but what I can do is, you know, help my family. I work in a lot of schools. So my program called RULER, is in 5,000 schools across the world. Half of New York City, all of Harlem schools, you know, many different districts across the United States. And, you know, one community gets it, then it grows and it grows and it grows and it grows. So kind of like, think global, but act local.
- [11:54]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, I love that. I love how you out here, putting it out here, and you got all you got. You got that Ruler thing in all those schools. It's amazing, man. And it's definitely needed for the development of all of the things we're Talking about.
- [12:09]
Dr. Mark Brackett
I just wrote an article for Men's Health magazine about this, about the boy situation. You'll appreciate this. So I have this new book that just came out. It's on emotion regulation. It's called Dealing with Feeling. And I'm running around. I'm talking about that, too. And I'm on these podcasts, you know. No, I'm not putting you in this category, so don't worry. But a lot of dudes, a lot of these bros, you know, and. And I'm realizing that they, you know, my PR people pitch them to be on the podcast, et cetera, and I'm thinking, oh, they really want to talk about their feelings. Not really. What they really want is they. They want to. They want me to talk about how emotion regulation is the key to, like, top performance longevity. It's like the new magic pill, right? First it's like sleep. Then it's like, you know, all your minerals and your vitamins. And now they're like, all right, tell me. Tell me what contribution emotion regulation has to me, like, finishing my workouts and, like, being strong and toughing up and. And you know what? If that's my way in, I'm fine with it, you know, whatever it takes, whatever.
- [13:24]
JoJo Simmons
Listen.
- [13:24]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Right, exactly. And then you work your way in, and then I ask a simple question, like, I'm going to ask you. So if I were to ask you to describe what did you learn about feelings growing up, what would you say to suppress them?
- [13:40]
JoJo Simmons
To not really talk about them much, you know, I remember being a young kid, and I was. I was. I was a bit emotional at times. And I remember I had a family member. I don't want to say who's specifically, because I love this person still to this day, but I remember being sad about something and kind of tearing up, and they were like, you're such a fragile boy. And it made me feel that way. It made me feel soft. And from that moment, I felt like I couldn't be fragile. Right. I felt like I wasn't allowed to be soft in any type of moment. And I had to show toughness every day from that day on out. Like, oh, I'm fragile. I didn't like that word. I didn't like how it was attached to me. I didn't like how the person called me. And that's how I remember feelings. And that was a key moment in my life about feelings, was like, oh, I gotta suppress my feelings. I can't be sad at everything. I can't be upset. I just have to Keep it moving.
- [14:36]
Dr. Mark Brackett
I think that's. Thank you for sharing that. And I think that's the misunderstanding that some people think that the work that we do is like asking you, Jojo, like, talk about your feelings all day long or, you know, be very vulnerable. That's not really what it is. What it's saying is that we all have emotions. From the moment we wake up in the morning until we go to bed at night. We feel anxiety, we feel stress, we feel happy, we feel disappointment, we feel overwhelmed. Like life is life. Whether it's at home, whether it's with your friends, whether it's in gym, whether it's in math class or whatever the hell it is. And acknowledging how you feel and getting support to deal with those feelings is going to change your life. It's going to help you be a better learner. It's going to help you be a better friend. It's going to help you achieve your goals in life. And that's what I try to let people see, is that if you really think about it, like to get where you are in your life. Did you have a lot of struggles?
- [15:40]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, you know, I wouldn't say, you know, not financially, but yeah. Different type of struggles for sure, I've dealt with in my life. Yes.
- [15:47]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Yeah. Disappointment.
- [15:49]
JoJo Simmons
Yes, Yes. A lot.
- [15:51]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Stress, Anxiety.
- [15:53]
JoJo Simmons
Of course. Yes, yes.
- [15:54]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Yeah. And so you're gonna, like, it doesn't matter whether you're wealthy or poor or anything in between. Life throws curveballs at you.
- [16:02]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah.
- [16:03]
Dr. Mark Brackett
You know, it's like I thought like during the pandemic, here I am like a professor of emotional intelligence, you know, and I think I'm gonna, like, no problem. I can deal with all the weirdness of COVID and the pandemic. And then my mother in law moved in, not because we invited her, but because she was visiting us from Panama and the COVID hit and she couldn't fly back. So here I am, like, not expecting my mother in law to be with us for more than two weeks, and she's staying with us for seven months. It's like, whoa. And so we didn't get along that well. I speak Spanish, I'm lucky. But it was really tough. And then one night, she looks at me and she goes like, are you really the director of the center for Emotional Intelligence? And I'm like, not tonight. It's going down tonight. And so, you know, I lose it. You know, we're yelling at each other. It's like awful. And you know, here I was like a professor of emotional intelligence who couldn't regulate. Right? And so, like, this is life's work. Like, what I needed in kindergarten to deal with, like, separation is one thing. What I needed in middle school to deal with my, you know, abuse and trauma and bullying is another thing. When I needed in college what I needed now as a leader, it's all different. But, like, the one constant is that you're going to have feelings and you're going to struggle sometimes with those feelings. Yeah.
- [17:24]
JoJo Simmons
I love to know. In your view, what does health, like an emotionally healthy father actually look like in practice?
- [17:32]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Okay, so here we go. You're going to be my son. Is that all right? No problem. All right. So I come home from work and you're like. Let's say you're third grade and you're like, you want to play with. You want to play with daddy, Right? But daddy just had a really rough day at work. So you're gonna role play with me now. You're gonna be like, daddy, Daddy, let's go outside and play. Go ahead. Ready?
- [17:53]
JoJo Simmons
Hey, dad, can we go outside and play?
- [17:56]
Dr. Mark Brackett
So what my father would have done. Son, I had a bad day. Go to your room. Oh, wow. You know, I need. I didn't. I need time. Like, you know, I don't. I don't have time for play right now. Like Daddy. You know, I wouldn't. He probably wouldn't even explained it. He would have just said, leave me alone. I've had a rough day. Right? All right, let's try. Let's try emotionally intelligent dad.
- [18:13]
JoJo Simmons
Hey, dad, can we go play?
- [18:17]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Son, you know something? I really want to play with you, but I gotta tell you something. I had a really tough day at work, and I got into a fight with someone that I work with. Not physical, but, like, we argued about something, and I was really mean and I hated myself. I was so unkind. So, son, I need a little bit of time to think about it because I want to figure out how to apologize to my good friend at work. And so give me about 15 minutes, I'm going to go think about it, and then when I come out, we'll do something together. How's that sound? Is that all right?
- [18:51]
JoJo Simmons
Yes.
- [18:53]
Dr. Mark Brackett
So what did I do? A, I came home. I didn't lose it. B, I told my son, like, I mess up. C, I told my son I think about other people. D, I told my son I need time to reflect. E, I told my son that I'm strategizing to figure out, you know, how to make amends, how to apologize and, you know, move Forward. All that happened. How long did that take?
- [19:17]
JoJo Simmons
Not long. You know, it took, what, 30 seconds to a minute to explain it. And I think the best part about it was the dad still was able to decompress, but also be able to play with his son, you know, 15 minutes later. It wasn't about choosing one or the other. It was about choosing both in a way that can emotionally regulate you, where you don't flip out.
- [19:37]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Exactly. And I'm not like. Because a lot of times, you know, when we were in bad moods, you know, our kids, we come home, I'm not in the mood. Like, the kid doesn't know. Is it me? Is it you? Is it something that happened? Like, just be. That's not vulnerability. That's just being transparent and, you know, being a good communicator and being clear and saying to your kid, here's what happened. Here's what I need. I want to be with you, too, but I need some time. And once I figure it out and calm down, we'll be together. But yet, when I've interviewed. Listen to this. So I've interviewed 30,000 people from my new book, 30,000 People About Emotion. Right. This thing, the book is dealing with feeling. 30,000 people. Here's what the research shows. Only 3% of the 30,000 people said their dads did that kind of thing. Wow. That crazy.
- [20:31]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah. It's not a lot.
- [20:34]
Dr. Mark Brackett
No. So we're not teaching our boys, you know, how to be men or healthy, you know, emotionally intelligent men.
- [20:42]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah. And we need to do better. Well, I think. I think this generation's been doing a bit better, especially with people like you out here, you know, talking about it, dropping books about it. And there's others that are out here, like, trying to teach men how to emotionally regulate and to be there more for their kids, whether it's a son or a daughter, how to really communicate better with their kids. Because, you know, we weren't all taught the same thing growing up. Like you said, your father may not have been. So it's hard for you to know how to be that way in some senses. Right.
- [21:11]
Dr. Mark Brackett
I mean, my father grew up, as I said, poor in New York City. You know, his father was totally dysregulated. I mean, my father had, like, cigarette burns on his body from his father, like, you know, being, you know, like, telling his son to, you know, shut up or whatever it was. So what the hell did my father learn about how to be a father? You know, he had no education. That's part of why I think that you know, this has to be taught in schools because we can teach kids these strategies as they relate to learning history, dealing with math, physical education, playground behavior. Like, these are opportunities to teach kids skills and strategies. And it works. The research shows that it makes a big difference, but yet there's still pushback. You know, people don't see this as, like, a critical aspect of development. And my argument is that it's as important as reading, writing, arithmetic, everything else. Agreed.
- [22:13]
JoJo Simmons
You spoke about RULER earlier, about how it's in all these different schools and all the work it's been doing for people hearing about RULER for the first time. Can you break it down in real life terms, not academic terms, if you could.
- [22:26]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Yeah. So RULER stands for five skills. The first is recognizing emotions. So, like, how am I feeling? How are you feeling? That's just it. It's just self awareness and social awareness. The you is understanding of emotion. Why do I feel the way that I do? Why do you feel the way you do? You know, we're two different guys, two different races, so the things that might make each of us feel, you know, I'm Jewish. You're probably not Jewish. No, but you're clearly a black man. And so the things, you know, that you were raised with, with bias and the things that you heard and the things that I heard are different. But yet we both feel alienated. Right. We both feel maybe not part of the mainstream because of our religion or our skin color. Right. And so understanding that about each other is really important. Just understanding, like, what makes you feel, you know, insecure or angry or what's an injustice to you, you know, what's an injustice to me? Then labeling emotions is the L. So recognize as you are, Understand is you. L is labeling. So having good words. Not, like, if I say, you know, hey, JoJo, how you feeling? What do you. What's your automatic response?
- [23:41]
JoJo Simmons
I'm good, you know, or I'm. Well, you know, I'm okay, you know. Yeah, good.
- [23:46]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Fine. Okay. You're not gonna say, you know, feeling like an odd mixture of disappointment and frustration.
- [23:52]
JoJo Simmons
Right, right, right. No, you're not.
- [23:55]
Dr. Mark Brackett
But you may be feeling it.
- [23:56]
JoJo Simmons
The rabbit hole to go down sometimes with people, right?
- [24:00]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Yeah. Well, that's the point. So, like, if I. Ask me how I'm feeling, how are you feeling? Good.
- [24:07]
JoJo Simmons
Exactly.
- [24:07]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Like, we just move on. Right, right, right. So now ask me how I'm feeling.
- [24:13]
JoJo Simmons
How are you feeling?
- [24:15]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Well, you know, I'm a little anxious, you know, and a little overwhelmed these days.
- [24:21]
JoJo Simmons
See, but that's better, though. You Know, because you kept it real with me, and now it opens for conversation. It opens for a listening ear to kind of hear what you're going through. You know what I mean? And I think that's healthy. You know? I think it's very.
- [24:32]
Dr. Mark Brackett
It is.
- [24:32]
JoJo Simmons
You know what I mean?
- [24:33]
Dr. Mark Brackett
The thing is that what happens is that people have a mindset that because I shared that I'm anxious or overwhelmed, that you, the listener, have to fix me.
- [24:43]
JoJo Simmons
Right.
- [24:44]
Dr. Mark Brackett
That's not the case, actually. My research shows that nobody wants the other person to fix them. Right. Or even give them advice. They just want listening. Yeah. And no judge and no judgment.
- [24:55]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, I agree.
- [24:56]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Don't judge me. Yeah. Let me be. Let me be a dude who is cool, who also is overwhelmed.
- [25:03]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, yeah, yeah. At least I'm just being real with you. And I. You should respect the fact I'm being transparent. At least, you know, I'm always real. Right. It's like, I like to put that.
- [25:12]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Yeah. So that's the L. So let me just say R is recognizing what's the E. E is expressing.
- [25:20]
JoJo Simmons
Okay.
- [25:21]
Dr. Mark Brackett
That's talking about it, sharing it. And then the R is regulating.
- [25:25]
JoJo Simmons
Okay. So regulating. I like how you. It all comes to the end of regulating it. You know what I mean?
- [25:31]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Exactly.
- [25:32]
JoJo Simmons
And then it gives you. Takes you down this long line of finally getting to regulation.
- [25:36]
Dr. Mark Brackett
The whole goal is regulation. Right. The whole goal is managing it effectively so you can move on, you can achieve your goals, you know, whatever else.
- [25:45]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah. I love it. Why do you. Why do you believe, though, emotional intelligence is just as important as academic intelligence, especially for young people.
- [25:56]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Okay, so here's the thing. If you ask any teacher or any parent, what do you like, I'm going to ask you this. If I don't know if you have kids or not, but if you did, if you don't, you have two kids. Okay. How old are they?
- [26:11]
JoJo Simmons
Four and nine.
- [26:12]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Okay, so now, JoJo, I want you to imagine your kids are 25 years old. Okay. What do you hope for your kids? Like, just think, I hope my kids. Fill in the sentence.
- [26:27]
JoJo Simmons
I hope my kids are happy. You know, that's what I wanted, to be happy.
- [26:31]
Dr. Mark Brackett
What else?
- [26:33]
JoJo Simmons
I want them to be successful. I want them to be aware. I want them to be, you know, philanthropic. I want them to care. You know, I just want them to be good people.
- [26:44]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Okay. Notice you didn't say I want them to have the best grade point average. Right. I want to have the highest test scores. That's not what parents want for their kids. You want Your kid to achieve their goals. You want them to be happy, you want them to be healthy, you want them have good relationships. Well, learning reading, writing and arithmetic is not going to get you there at all. Learning how to regulate your emotions will. So there's my point. If we want to move beyond academic success, which is important but limited, and we want to go towards life success, we got to teach these skills.
- [27:25]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah. To me, I think people with people skills usually go further with people with just book smarts. And I'm not saying that people with book smarts don't go far. I think everybody goes far as they want to go. But I think the people skills really is more relatable in the outside world of dealing with people, you know, like, people skills.
- [27:45]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Totally. Yeah. I mean, when you think about, do you have a team that you work with?
- [27:50]
JoJo Simmons
Yes.
- [27:51]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Yeah. So, yes, you want to work with smart people, but they got to also, like, be people you want to be around.
- [27:59]
JoJo Simmons
There you go. Yeah, I like that. Yeah. Everybody, we have it. 3. Is 4 and 4 good. We all want to hang out. You know what I mean? It's all people we exactly love, you know, we want to hang out with. And we're like minded people. We, we have the same mission in mind and the same goals and, you know, same values. So, so for sure.
- [28:15]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Exactly. I call it the, you know, I'm a coffee person. I, I, I have this, like, moment where I'm meeting someone, like I'm interviewing them or something, and I think to myself, could I imagine myself, you know, chatting with them in a coffee shop? And if I say no, I don't care how smart they are. Yeah. Because I'm not going to be motivated to be around them.
- [28:38]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, yeah.
- [28:39]
Dr. Mark Brackett
And you got to want to be around the people you work with.
- [28:42]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, yeah. In order, in order for it to work, you got to be around people you want to work with. You know what I mean? I agree. Many communities grow up in survival mode. How does emotional intelligence help people heal without dismissing the real challenges they face in that mode?
- [28:59]
Dr. Mark Brackett
I appreciate that. You know, it's funny because I've worked with the, this woman named Dawn DaCosta, who is the deputy superintendent of all of Harlem schools for 15 years now.
- [29:10]
JoJo Simmons
Okay.
- [29:11]
Dr. Mark Brackett
And we've had these, we have these conversations all the time because obviously, you know, there's a lot of poverty in some areas of Harlem. Obviously, there's some racism that is continuous. That. And obviously all those things we want to fix, we want to fix poverty, homelessness, and systemic racism. Those are long Time pieces. That's like decades of work to fix that and to manage it. And at the same time, as she says, there are five year olds showing up every day in her schools to learn. And whether they come from temporary housing or a healthy family structure, if they're victims of racism or whatever, I've got to help that kid be a good learner. I've got to help that kid get through the day and enjoy life and feel safe in school and feel connected in school. And so from our perspective, it's always both. But you can't. Some people would argue, well, you got to only focus on the big thing, like poverty and racism. And I agree, we always have to focus on that. Poverty sucks, any kind of racism sucks. But if we wait to solve that and not help kids kind of feel safe and feel comfortable in a school, I think we're making a big mistake. So I think it's about both.
- [30:42]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, I agree.
- [30:43]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Does that make sense to you?
- [30:44]
JoJo Simmons
No, it makes, it makes, it makes a lot of sense to me. It's a mesh of both. It's an equally yoked. It's equally yoked. You know what I mean? You got to have both in order to function and, you know what I mean, in order to operate and to be the best version of you. So it, trust me, you're, I'm just, I'm lost in the words, my brother. You, you, you really, you know, you bring in a lot of good stuff here. And I wanted to talk about adults now learning emotional skills, right, that they were never taught as kids. What if they feel it's too late to build emotional intelligence? Intelligence. Is it ever too late? What would you tell them?
- [31:17]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Here's the good news. Never too late. So I'm going to give you a story about this. So my dad, who was, you know, he got, he got more emotionally intelligent the more he hung out with me.
- [31:28]
JoJo Simmons
Okay, there you go. Put your dad over. Tough Bronx man switching them over, huh?
- [31:33]
Dr. Mark Brackett
You're not kidding. So, I mean, this is my, my father. Here's what he tells, like, you know, you know, I'm not like the toughest guy on the block, you know, and whatever that even means. But I do have a fifth degree black belt, by the way, though. I became a martial artist. You know, something had to do. I had to do something to toughen up. But anyhow, you know, my father would say things like when I was in middle school, high school, you're like, son, I used to beat kids up like you. I'm like, thanks, dad. You know like, really appreciate that. So later on here, my. My mom died when I was young. My father remarried. He's now 78 years old, and he's living upstate New York. And his wife calls me, and she's like, mark, I can't take your father anymore. He's angry all the time. You know, he's. You know, she's not using these words, but, like, he's dysregulated, you know? And I'm like, oh, shit. Yeah, I remember those days. So I do a road trip to visit him, and I sit with my father at a coffee shop, and I'm like, hey, dad, you know what's going on? And I can't take it anymore. I'm like, what do you mean, like, what can't you take anymore? Well, she has grandkids and her kids. He thinks his kids are successful. He didn't think her kids were successful. And so they needed help, like babysitting and support. Right, right, right. So the grandmother. His wife is now, like, taking care of the grandkids a couple days a week while the other they're looking for work or whatever. And he's like, I. You know. So I said, what's going on? I can't take it anymore. Well, all right, that. Tell me really, what's going on? Anyway, he basically says that he's upset that his wife is spending a lot of time with the grandkids, like, eating. You know, he's old. He wants to be with his wife and hang out all day with his wife. Yeah. So I said, dad, you know, it sounds like you're jealous.
- [33:26]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah.
- [33:26]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Yeah, right. He's like, what do you mean, I'm jealous? I'm like, you want to spend time with your wife. Your wife is spending time with the kids, and you're upset that she's with them and not with you. So in my dictionary, that's called jealousy.
- [33:40]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [33:42]
Dr. Mark Brackett
So he's like, are you. You're telling me I'm jealous? I'm like, no, you're telling me you're jealous. I'm just giving you the freaking word. And then he started crying.
- [33:51]
JoJo Simmons
Wow.
- [33:52]
Dr. Mark Brackett
He's like, I can't.
- [33:53]
JoJo Simmons
It was real. You know, he felt real. Was real. It was real, you know, and you. And you opened that wound for him.
- [34:00]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Exactly. And then we said, all right, so, like, she can if she wants to be with her freaking grandkids. Like, that's her choice. Like, you know, so what are you going to do, you know, when she's doing that? You need strategies to deal with your life, like go take a walk, go to the mall, I don't know, watch a football game. But anyway, I tell you the story because he was 79 when this happened. About three months later, his wife called me. She's like, mark, I don't know what you did in that coffee shop that day, but he's a changed man. So my point is that awareness at any point in your life and kind of like knowledge and skill can make a difference.
- [34:41]
JoJo Simmons
I love that story. Thank you for that. Thank you for sharing that story and the awareness. And it's never too late, like you said, to change. Like, look, 78, dad didn't change. You know what I mean? In the second part of it. I love that, man. You work with a lot of people over the years and you continue to work a lot of people obviously, like leaders, organizations. What's one emotional skill you would think a leader needs most right now but often lack?
- [35:10]
Dr. Mark Brackett
I think it's something called co regulation, okay. Which is that it's not just about me managing my emotions. It's about me recognizing that it's my job to help other people regulate theirs. Not be codependent, not coddle them, not tell them everything's going to be okay or whatever, but literally be supportive so that my team, you know, I have a big team. I got 35 people working at my center, okay? The people who report to me, you know, they have teams. If they're struggling managing a team or they have a difficult person on their team, they've got to feel comfortable coming to me to share what's happening. And they got to be comfortable with me kind of walking them through some role plays and scenarios to help them deal with their stress or their anxiety and then to help other people. So I think that it's, I call it having an other orientation, like just, it's all about like, we're so narcissistic in our society. Everything's about me, the leader. And I'm thinking, you know what, Take a break from you, right, and focus on other people for a little bit. Help other people succeed, help other people deal.
- [36:26]
JoJo Simmons
That's how, that's how I look at leading too. It's like, it's never, I never put me first. I always put whoever I'm talking to first. I always, I don't know, I think it's because I'm a Libra and I look this up. It's like Libras understand every part, everybody's side. And we're like, we like kind of regulating people. We like Talking it out. We like teamwork, like Libras, we flourish with teams because whether we need to lead or whether we need to, I wouldn't say follow, but, you know, take direction or help, we're down to do it. So, like, that's how I lead. I lead how I would want to be led. You know what I mean? That's my always. My first thought is like, how would I want to be led? Would I want to be scrutinized when I want to be yelled at? Would I want to be felt like somebody else's side was being taken over mine? Or would I want to be felt like I'm understood, but I also need to understand whatever else is going on that may be causing the friction or whatever is happening amongst my team. Right. So I love how you say that. And I love how, like, man, like, I be. I guess I'm moving the right way. You know what I mean? I'm doing the right thing.
- [37:26]
Dr. Mark Brackett
You think about it, you know, when there's, like, people don't think about the value of emotional intelligence when everything is going smoothly.
- [37:34]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah.
- [37:34]
Dr. Mark Brackett
You know, like. Yeah, you know, I just was away for 10 days on a. On a retreat for myself, working on, you know, some research. I needed space. And like, I didn't, like, you know, I'm sitting looking at the ocean, like, what am I worrying about emotional intelligence for? Like, everything is going great. Then I got off the plane in JFK and I'm like, ugh, you know, and then I'm back in my everyday role and, like, dealing with life. And then all of a sudden, you know, I got to use these skills. And so when it comes to, you know, leadership, I think the test of our leadership is when, on the vacation example, when the sand gets kicked in your face. And so when Covid hit and everything's shutting down and people are freaking out, do people see you as a leader who can manage that? They see, oh, gosh, my leader can handle the stress and. And that they see you as a leader who is available to help them figure out how to deal with their stuff. That, to me, you know, is a big piece of good leadership.
- [38:42]
JoJo Simmons
Great. I love that. I hope that my team looks at me in that sense that I'm somebody that they can talk to and I lead well. I want to talk about kids and growing up online. I have two kids. Mine. One of mine is very heavily, you know, interested in, you know, talking on the iPad and playing on the iPad at times. And we try to keep balance. But I want to talk about how does social media and constant comparison affect emotional development? And what should we be paying attention to as parents?
- [39:12]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Yeah, I think the more time off social media and phones, the better. Period.
- [39:18]
JoJo Simmons
I agree, I agree.
- [39:20]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Period. I mean, A, most researchers are going to say you got to wait till about, you know, 15, 16 years old to be on social media, you know, B, you know, no iPhone until you're at least you're a teenager. See, definitely no phones, you know, in the room at night in a bedroom. E best if you take the phones away, you know, and say, you know, you got it, you get it back in the morning. And I think really monitoring it. Because it is addictive. Yes, it's just addictive. I'm addicted.
- [39:55]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, yeah, we're all addicted, right. We all find good content to watch and funny stuff and this and that. And there's news. It's the source of entertainment for everybody, right?
- [40:05]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Completely. But I also, you know, I have. This is my New Year's resolution, which, you know, these resolutions are stupid, but anyway, I'm making one and because I go to sleep with my phone and I wake up with my phone, I don't know. Do you do that or no. Are you good? Are you?
- [40:22]
JoJo Simmons
I've been trying not to, you know, I. With this podcast, I talked to many different therapists and people that are in the mental health and one gave me advice like wake up. At least give yourself 15, 20 minutes without even looking at the phone. Look at the time if you need to see if there's any emergency messages. But if there's nothing that is pressing at 6:30 when you wake up, give yourself to at least 6:45, 7:00 clock to look at 100%, you know, and I've been trying. I'm not successful every day, but there's days I, I do. And then I come here and I meditate and I try to like, yeah. Emotionally regulate. Right. First before I put myself into the world.
- [40:57]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Exactly. So, you know, put the phone in the bathroom, in the closet, you know, check it out, you know, but it really matters also. It matters for sleep quality for kids and adults, you know, that the, you know, just the way you're. Your circadian rhythms, you know, happen that, you know, your bedroom is for, you know, settling your brain. And what happens is you start looking at the news cycle or whatever's, you know, you know, this one happened, this happened, this happened. And you get cortisol spikes, which puts you out of sleep mode and puts you into rumination mode and thinking mode. We want our brains to Be settled when we go to bed. That's why, like, the best ritual is, you know, do a little stretching if you like, take a bath if you like, you know, do a little breathing exercises, do a little meditation, something to bring the brain down. But most of us are not doing that. That's why, you know, America is so sleep deprived, people. You know, this is actually really interesting around emotion regulation. So in my book, I talk a lot about like, what I call your emotion regulation budget. Yeah. And so, and what that means is that the food you eat, the physical activity you get, and the quality of your sleep all contribute to your ability to regulate. So for example, with parents, a lot of times, oh, I can't. I'm trying to be my best self as a parent in the morning, you know, but I'm like, I'm ready. I already lose it before breakfast, you know, already yelling at my kids before they even come down for breakfast. And then I say, just for curiosity, did you have anything? Did you have carbs in your system? Like, did you have a little snack this morning? No. How was your sleep quality last night? Terrible. Did you exercise yesterday? No. And there you go. They have not replenished the budget because, you know, think about it as a leader, you know, as a teacher. For example, my. In the schools that I work with, you're regulating. I mean, you're regulating so hard all day. Yeah, right. You know, he's like dealing with like kids in schools and teaching and disruptions. And then the time you get home, you're like, burnt. Right. It's like this, like, this is work. Right. You have to like, engage with me. You've got to like.
- [43:12]
JoJo Simmons
And I do a lot of them. A lot of them. Yeah, yeah.
- [43:16]
Dr. Mark Brackett
And then, and then like by the time you go back to your house, you know, if you're with your kids, you're sort of like, daddy's not in the mood to talk right now. Like, daddy's done talking.
- [43:26]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, it's sometimes like, even with the wife, it's like, just please, like, I just need like 10 minutes. I've been talking to three people today for 60 minutes. Two hours. Then I had team things. I'm still talking in team meetings. So it's like, yeah, I've had those days. Was like talking all day. I just want to not talk, you know?
- [43:44]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Exactly. But they want to talk. Right. And so they want you now because you've been away all day. Yes. And so you got to figure out what's your kind of replenishment, you know, is it going to the gym? Is it taking a walk? Is it going into a room and just listening to some music, like whatever you need to then make the transfer or the, you know, shift the context and be more present. Because what will happen over time is that it'll just kind of get worse and worse and worse, you know, with kids and with family. Yeah. So it's like you're. You have to figure out how do you restore or what do you do throughout the day, you know, like, for me, I. We have a rule now. I only do 50 minute meetings. No hour meetings.
- [44:29]
JoJo Simmons
Okay.
- [44:29]
Dr. Mark Brackett
I want 10 minutes to go to the bathroom.
- [44:32]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, yeah, give yourself that 10 minutes, why not?
- [44:35]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Right? Like just make the meeting shorter. It's usually a waste of time anyway. So give me that 10 minutes to, you know, to just go make a cup of coffee or take a little walk, like staring, you know, I live, you know, on a park. I sometimes just look out my window and I'm like, like right now I could see out the window. I'm immediately more relaxed just looking out the window. But half the day I'm like, you know, and it's two minutes. Just take a moment and breathe. Amazing. Making sure, you know, I don't have that phone in bed before I go to bed, you know, and trying to have a consistency. Huge. I'm also, you know, I never, I'm a martial artist, but I never worked out like, like weights. I now do weightlifting four days a week.
- [45:18]
JoJo Simmons
There you go. Good for you. Good for you.
- [45:20]
Dr. Mark Brackett
And you cannot not, like, I have to work out now. Like, so my point is that taking care of your physical body, taking care of your sleep quality and taking care about what you put into your body all are going to help you be the best version of yourself.
- [45:38]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, I agree. I'm heavy on taking care of my mental, my physical. I work out six days a week. I only take one day off. I meditate. I try to do everything that's good for my mind, my body and my soul. So I definitely agree to spin back on a social media question though, before we get into how do you think it affects a kid's emotional development being on social media and having that comparison effect. What, like, should parents be paying attention to when it comes to social media and their child's emotional development and how it could affect it?
- [46:10]
Dr. Mark Brackett
I think the biggest thing is that kids believe before they go on social media that they're going to feel better by looking at stuff. What the research shows is that after they look at the stuff, they feel worse. So it's a delusion. It's the dopamine hit is what excites them to go to it. But then the actual process of looking at people who have better bodies, better lips, better hips, better this, better that, it just slowly makes you feel worse about yourself. And that's important because we know it correlates with anxiety and depression, eating disorders, and other poor mental health outcomes. So it's a big deal. And one of the bigger challenge is that it creates a lot of envy and resentment.
- [47:05]
JoJo Simmons
Yes, yes, yes, it does.
- [47:06]
Dr. Mark Brackett
And that's not, you know, like, you know, I'd rather people figure out ways to be more grateful than to feel resentful.
- [47:14]
JoJo Simmons
I like that. Be more grateful, less resentful, everybody. Let's. Let's mark that one down as a clip. Before grateful, be less resentful. Now, for Good podcasts, we call it the For Good podcast for a reason. And I'd love to know, you know, we talk about doing good a lot on this podcast, and I'd love to know what that looks like to you in everyday life, not just in theory. What is being good, doing good, living good, mean to you?
- [47:42]
Dr. Mark Brackett
You know, it's interesting. So I have to tell a story with everything, but I was giving a speech and my Uncle Marvin, who I spoke about, who was my hero, you know, the person who I say gave me permission to feel he made a huge difference in my life, but I became a scientist. And so I was giving a speech and this was crazy. I was telling the story of my uncle, and this one guy in his 50s, he's like, Are you talking about Marvin, the sixth grade social studies teacher from Monticello, New York? I said, I am. He's like, mark, you're not going to believe this, but your uncle was my uncle. I'm like, what are you talking about? He's like, your uncle was my Uncle Marvin, you know, in school, he radically impacted my life. So I'm like, holy shit, I gotta interview. I gotta interview you. Yeah. So I interviewed this guy. I wanted to know, like, well, I never met any of my uncle's actual students. So anyway, he tells me all these amazing things, but then he said one thing to me that really changed me. And he says, obviously, your uncle had a profound impact on you. And he, you know, look at your career, look at the work you do. I said, 100%. And so he said to me, for whom are you and Uncle Marvin? And I was like, you know, I like to do the research, I like to write the books, but do I show up like, for other people. Like, my uncle showed up for me.
- [49:14]
JoJo Simmons
Right.
- [49:14]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Not as much. Right. And so that's a major goal for me. It's like, that's why I talked about having an other orientation. Like, I feel like I'm 56 years old. I reach a pretty good level of success in my life. Enough of it's enough about you, Mark. Like, let's help the next generation of people achieve their goals. Let's show up for people and help them figure things out, support them. And honestly, it feels so good to help other people achieve their dreams.
- [49:44]
JoJo Simmons
I love that. So I guess you would say, in a nutshell, doing good is like being like, Uncle Marvin, man. Shout out to Uncle Marvin. Uncle Marvin's that guy. He definitely gave us you. So shout out to Uncle Marvin.
- [49:56]
Dr. Mark Brackett
For sure.
- [49:57]
JoJo Simmons
So fine.
- [49:58]
Dr. Mark Brackett
I want a world of Uncle Marvin.
- [50:00]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, for sure. So as we. As we close out, I would love, you know, if, you know, for someone listening, Subscribers listening right now, watching right now. Yeah. They wanted to start building emotional intelligence today. What's one simple daily practice you'd recommend to them?
- [50:16]
Dr. Mark Brackett
I would say that notice your self talk.
- [50:22]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah.
- [50:23]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Notice when you look in the mirror, like, what are your automatic. Like, what are you saying to yourself? Like, I'm not good enough. I'm not smart enough. I'm not, you know, whatever it is and catch it and say three things you're grateful for. Just completely disconnect from that. Like, hack it by focusing on gratitude and something that makes you kind of think about the things that are going right for you as opposed to the things that automatically come up for you that are wrong.
- [50:59]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, I like, I like the comparison. It's like the. The old saying, I got bad news, but I got even better news. Right? Like, I got bad news and I got good news for you. Right. That's kind of how I look at it. Like, okay, these are the things I'm not enjoying right now or happy with, but I got even better news. These are the things that I do have and that I'm grateful for and that, you know, I'm still happy to be here for. So. Yeah, I appreciate that. And I'm sure my subscribers will go away with. With those gems, for sure. Thank you for Dr. Brackett, before we get out of here, I'd love for you to tell people where they can find you any, you know, where they can get your books, name of all your books, any information you want them to know.
- [51:33]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Yeah, well, a couple things. One is, my book is called Dealing with Feeling. That's my New book. My first book is Permission to Feel. So one is to give you permission to feel, then one is to help you deal with all those feelings. I'll be. And thank you. And then I think, you know social media. I'm on Instagram. It's my name, LinkedIn as well, but my website is my name, which is markbrackett.com and from there you can learn about the books, you can learn about the program in schools, you can learn about other things that I'm doing. Great.
- [52:03]
JoJo Simmons
I gotta Link you on LinkedIn. It's my new favorite place to be at. Like, I was talking to my business partners. I'm like, it's better than Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, all of them. I love LinkedIn. It's. It's a sound. Yeah. Well, thank you, Dr. Mark Bracken, for coming on the Four Girl Podcast. You've been a pleasure to have. This has been a great conversation and like I gave everybody their four good flowers. I gotta give you your four good flowers hours for doing everything you've been doing not only for yourself, but for the community and everybody out here. And the books that you're dropping have been doing amazing work for people to understand how they regulate their emotional feelings. And ruler obviously is a huge thing that's been going on in a lot of different schools. So I want to thank you once again for everything that you've been doing. And this is the four Girl podcast guys, till next time where we focus on the good, never the bad. And we're measured by what we we do, not what we have. We'll check it out. Till next time guys. Appreciate you guys. Much love is you got JoJo Simmons, Dr. Mark Bracket. Don't forget to subscribe. Peace.
- [53:03]
Libsyn Ads Host
Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host, you seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn ads, go to Libsynads.com that's L I B S Y N ads.com today.