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For Good
Why You Keep Repeating the Same Relationship Patterns | Vienna Pharaon on Healing "Origin Wounds"
00:58:49
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- [00:00]
A
That's what I got after taking your quiz was the worthiness. But I knew that in a sense. I knew growing up, not just obviously always wanting to make my father proud, trying to follow in big footsteps. He's run from Run dmc. You know, for people that don't know, I'm sure everybody that watches does know. That was a lot. Being a celebrity And a reality TV show kid from 14 on or 15 on, that was a lot. Trying to prove self to. I have a visual something too that I brought up. Not to cut you off, but I brought up to my mother when she decided to leave my father. And I told her this story of when we left the house and I kind of want to get into it, but I told her everything I remembered and she looked at me, she said, how do you remember that? You were only three. And I was like, I don't even know how I remember something three years old, but it must have ruptured me. Head over to vandamsenergy.com and put your first order in for the most luxury energy drink on the market. Van Dams, stay woke. What's up, everybody? It's your guy, JoJo Simmons. And welcome back to the For Good podcast where we focus on the good, never the bad. And we're measured by what we do, not, not what we have. I know we talk about mental health a lot on this podcast, but today we're diving into the roots of why we are the way we are, especially in our relationships. Our guest is someone who truly lives and breathes this work. Vienna Farren is a licensed marriage and family therapist, one of New York City's most sought after relationship experts, and the author of national best selling book the Origins of youf. Vienna's work helps us understand how our family of origin, the environment we're raised in, shape, shapes our patterns around love, trust, safety and self worth. This conversation isn't about blaming our parents or reliving the past for the sake of it. It's about awareness, compassion, and learning how to break the cycles that no longer serve us so we can show up differently in our lives and relationships. We're talking origin, wounds, healing patterns, and what it actually takes to move forward for good. So let's get into it. First of all, Vienna, thank you for coming on the For Good podcast.
- [02:13]
B
Thank you for having me.
- [02:14]
A
I'm so excited. Yeah, of course. You know, I'm so excited to have you here, um, because I think that this is a conversation that's not only needed, but it's a conversation that people want to hear. Um, and that's what we're about, you know, at the For Good podcast, is about having the intentional conversations that people actually need to hear. So thank you for, for lending your time to us today on this podcast. So I'm really excited for you to be here. And I want to know, or I want. For people that may not know you or, or the work you do, how would you introduce yourself to people and what you do?
- [02:45]
B
I liked your intro. Did you write that yourself? That was pretty good.
- [02:48]
A
Yeah. Me and the team and myself, we like to make sure that we, we pride ourselves.
- [02:53]
B
Yeah, you nailed it. Extension of what you said. I am in this work professionally, but also personally. Right. You know, so many people say therapists get into the line of therapy because whether they know it or not, they are here to resolve that which is unresolved in their own lives. And, you know, if you had asked me 20 years ago if I was coming in because I needed to do my own work, I would have said no. You know, I would have said that I was somebody that my friends came to, to talk about the relationships and what was going on, and I was a good listening ear. And as I went along on my journey, you know, this, this woman who was like, okay, no, my parents, divorce didn't affect me at all. And I'm unaffected. Like, I'm good, everything's fine, there's no baggage, there's nothing. You know, that all started to reveal itself and I went on a journey for myself, really uncover how the past was showing up in my present day relationships, my romantic relationships, my friendships, my relationship with myself. And, oh, when you start to excavate all the things, right, it just rises to the surface. I know that you're someone who does the same, but yeah, that was my, you know, that was my introduction into it. Our family of origin, right, the family system or systems that we grew up in are our first blueprint and template for everything, right? Like how we relate to ourselves and people and communication and conflict and intimacy and love and connection, right? All of these things, they're taught or not in that space. And of course, there's other influences, we know that, but our family is our first. And the exploration of our family of origin is so important in this work. I know you said it in the intro. We're not here to go on some wild goose hunt and, you know, point the finger and, and this, that and the other, but to really acknowledge what our story is, right? It's like we really need to bear witness to the things that happened in our lives that shape the way that we relate to worth and belonging and prioritization and trust and safety. So, yeah, that's, you know. Well, I'm sure we'll get more into the stories and all that as we go, but yeah, that's the, that's the work. I really love exploring our patterns through the context of our, of our history.
- [05:11]
A
I love that and I love how you said you were just the person that friends probably came to about relationship advice and that kind of opened up that portal for you to say, this is actually something I'm good at. This is something I'm not only good at, but I'm interested in. And it probably really lights you up to do this work. I found it also very relatable when you said, a friend said, my parents divorcing at a young age didn't affect me. And I thought, and I won't get into it too deeply, but for years that I never thought about that. My parents have been divorced since I was. Before I can even remember them even being together. I don't, I don't have not one faint memory of my biological parents being together, which I don't. I'm not upset with that. I'm, you know, it's life. But as when I go back in my life and I say, did that truly affect me? And I start thinking about it, I'm like, well, maybe it did. Maybe it did help shape the man I am and the things I think about and you know, when I'm sad or when I'm upset or, you know, maybe that all did play into it. Not that I went into the wild goose chase like we say, but I did think about that. I am aware that all the things you do is so necessary for I think everybody. And it's not to go down a rabbit hole and blame your parents or blame your grandparents or blame the friends or the person that gave you the trauma that you have. But it's to be aware of who you are. So that's why I truly love your work.
- [06:29]
B
Well, let me. I guess I tricked you there when I said the woman. That's my story. Okay, so, you know, similarly, I, my parents went through a nine year divorce process that started when I was in first grade. And I don't have that many memories of them when I was tiny. You know, I have memories through the divorce, but yeah, I was somebody who for so long was like, no, that didn't affect me.
- [06:52]
A
I'm good.
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B
Like, I don't, you know, I don't need to look at that at all. I'm fine. Look how well adjusted I am. Like, I'm successful, happy. Yeah.
- [06:59]
A
That's how I was too.
- [07:00]
B
Right. And so, yes, this work was all about, like, how do I touch the thing that I am protecting myself from touching. Right. And I was somebody who, you know, I didn't know how to not be okay. I was an it's fine girl for so long. And to actually touch the pain would have required me to learn how to say something other than I'm fine. Right. And so that was a big journey that I had to go on. So I think we've got some.
- [07:29]
A
We got some similarities there. I love that.
- [07:31]
B
Yeah.
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A
So, you know, I know this conversation has already started, but before we really get into the deeper conversation, I do want to say that I took your origin wound quiz.
- [07:38]
B
Yeah.
- [07:39]
A
I will reveal later. I think I screenshot in my phone what I got. And honestly, though, it did give me a lot to sit with. Can you talk about what this quiz is designed to uncover and why it can be such a powerful entry point into this work?
- [07:53]
B
Yeah. So when I sat down to write the book, Right. The Origins of you, I was sitting with, like, what are the wounds? And I really wanted to use the word wounds as opposed to trauma. Because sometimes people hear the word trauma and they check themselves out of the conversation. They're like, okay, my story is not as bad as this person's story. Or I don't have something that's so big, so I don't. I'm gonna, like, I'm out. Right. And so with wounds, I really appreciated that word because I think the reality of it is, is that as we go through the human experience, there are going to be things that, you know, hurt us along the way. And whether, you know, we wanna stay away from wound comparison. Right. We wanna stay away from comparing our lives to somebody else's lives. We wanna be able to just acknowledge what our story is. And, you know, I've worked with so many people at this point, over 25,000 hours of therapeutic work with individuals, couples, and families. And the reality of it is, is when I sat down to really think about everybody's stories, it felt like these five wounds really rose to the surface, which is that through the human experience, I think we come into contact with maybe a primary one, but also maybe multiple. Sometimes people are like, is it normal if I have all five? It's like, it's okay. But our relationship with worth, okay, so worthiness, belonging, prioritization, trust and safety. So worth is, you know, if you have a worthiness wound, we're talking about, you know, any of the perfectionist pleasers, performers, comic relief, the people who learn in their childhoods that you had to exist in the conditional love space, right? Like, I can get connection and closeness and validation and praise and approval and love and intimacy from you, my parents or family member, whomever. If I am performing in this way, whether that's getting straight A's, whether that's being successful on the athletic field, whether that's being the funny one at home who's able to dissolve any of the tension that's going on, right? Like, what do I need to do in order to get love so that I feel valued, so I feel worthy of love and connection and presence from you? Sometimes it happens through being told that you're worthless though, right? Like, there's a number of different ways in which wounds can show up. It might have been explicitly stated to you, maybe you were told those things. For me, my father would sometimes give me the silent treatment when I was not behaving the way that he wanted me to. And the silent treatment would go on for days or weeks at a time sometimes. And that was a message to me that was like, okay, if you show up the way that somebody wants you to, presence, connection, like, he was amazing father in a lot of ways where he would really, like, help and support, support and show up in all the ways that I needed him to. Except when I did something he didn't want me to, right? Except if I pushed a boundary or, you know, did something that wasn't within what was allowed by him and then the withdrawal would take place, right? And that really cemented this story that like, okay, I'm worthy when I do X, Y and Z, right? I am not worthy of love, connection, presence, forgiveness, you know, whatever, right? If I don't, right? So the worthiness wound. I think so many of us can
- [11:06]
A
hint that was my wound. That's what I got after taking your quiz was the worthiness. But I knew that in a sense, I knew growing up not just obviously always wanting to make my father proud, trying to follow in big footsteps. He's run from Run dmc, you know, for people that don't know, I'm sure everybody that watches does know. That was a lot. Being a celebrity And a reality TV show kid from 14 on or 15 on, that was a lot. Trying to prove self to fans and people that don't even know me.
- [11:36]
B
Well, you're highly critiqued, right? There's like a lot a different time when you were, you know, as a kid on a reality show versus today with the social media and all that, but. Right. It's like, it's highly critiqued. People have a lot of things to say. They think that they know you. They've got a lot of opinions. Right. And like you said, living up into the shoes. How can I be worthy and valuable if I don't reach, you know, what my father was able to reach. Right. Some version of that.
- [12:03]
A
And, like, when I won, it was a big praise, whether it was family, fans, people looking on, but when I lost, it was a louder roar.
- [12:11]
B
Sure.
- [12:12]
A
That's how I always felt in my life. Like, I won. Yay. You lose. You double here. The booze, in my opinion.
- [12:20]
B
Yeah. And I can imagine too, like, it's representation for the family as an extension as well.
- [12:25]
A
Right.
- [12:26]
B
Like, I. I don't know if this is true for you, but I think a lot of times families that are in the small spotlight or, like, you have to show up in a really specific way on top of, like, you're a kid, you're a teenager, you know, there's a. There's a way in which there's, like, got to be some flexibility and space in that in there. But when you're in the spotlight, there can be so much pressure to, like, do not embarrass us.
- [12:48]
A
Yeah.
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B
Right.
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A
I was given the responsibility of a last name that I had inherited birth. Right. And like you said, I wasn't ready for that. You know, as much. As much as I know now how important that is.
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B
Yeah.
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A
When you're a kid and you're just trying to live life and trying to figure out who you are, how do you give somebody that type of responsibility and not feel like they won't deal with worthiness issues? You know what I mean? So not to get too deep into that, but that is the. That is the wound that I. That I did get with your quiz. Now, when people take the quiz and see their result for the first time, I know it's usually probably a lot. What do you notice tends to come up emotionally for them, like, when they first take that quiz?
- [13:31]
B
I mean, I think for some people, it's like how you just said where you're like, I kind of knew what it was going to be, so there might be a sense of validation, like, okay, that's what I was expecting. This makes sense for some I've heard, like, oh, I didn't expect it to be that. But now that I'm reading through, because you get extra material afterwards, too. Now that I'm reading through. Through it, I can really see that and how helpful to orient to what, you know, what maybe I wasn't looking at before, but now I have a bit of a spotlight on it. And you have to remember the quiz is only giving you the primary one. So many people have multiple. Right. So you're like, you're just getting an entry point into which one based on the way that your answer is the loudest one that day too. Right? It's like, because a lot of stuff can shift it based on the day. So, yeah. Which is the loudest one right now. But also, you know, we're probably rubbing up against some of the others as well in our lives. So, yeah, I think a lot of times it's the validation and affirmation of, like, right, this is what I have felt all along. Maybe it's giving people a name for it for the first time. Like, whoa, yes. Like, this is my experience, but I never named it. I didn't put a label name. Right. And I'm also, I like to be flexible with that as well, because we're not fitting into boxes. If you want to use a different word than worthiness, go for it.
- [14:46]
A
These were.
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B
This was the language that I was using. But, you know, this is how we internalize our life's experiences, right? It's like, you know, for example, if somebody's father abandoned their family, one person might experience that and internalize it as a worthiness wound. Like, you left because I wasn't good enough for you to stick around. Somebody else might internalize it as a trust wound. You left. Now I can't trust the most important people in my life to show up and follow through. Right? So we're not. You're not looking for the story of, like, okay, this is what happened to me. So now I fit into this box. It's not that. It's okay, hey, what's happened in my life and what's the story I'm telling myself about this? Like, how do I make meaning of it? Because that's where it's going to put you into struggling with worth or struggling with belonging or struggling to be a priority in people's lives, struggling to trust people or feel safe with people.
- [15:40]
A
I. I find it interesting that you said a person could be all five, and it doesn't. And also it could switch up from the day of how you're feeling. Like, I saw when I was taking a quiz, I was like, well, not lately. I haven't been feeling like that, but I might have felt that way in the past, or maybe I'll feel that way in the future. I also feel like there's different seasons that you can feel any of them. Right. And maybe this season or is the loud worthiness screams the loudest to me. But I found it very interesting. You said somebody can be a 5
- [16:06]
B
depending on the day, you know, and I think also whether you're in relationship or not, too romantic relationships specifically will tend to turn it up. Like sometimes when people take it when they're single and they're like, you know, I like this doesn't get tested as much. Right. Because the way we are with our friends or the way that we are, you know, with our colleagues might be a little bit different. But I noticed that when people are in a relationship, that's where they're like, oof. I feel it turns on.
- [16:34]
A
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it definitely does. So you identify five origin wounds. It's worthiness, prioritization, belonging, safety, and trust. How did you come to define those five as the core pattern?
- [16:47]
B
Yeah, I mean, this is kind of what I was saying before about sitting with the stories of so many people and, you know, scribbling down, like, different abandonment, wound and this, then the other. But I. I felt like it synthesized into these five, where this was the kind of umbrella term, like I said before, of like, okay, whatever, this is my language. But this feels like it really holds the human experience. Right. So, like, whatever wounds that we have, whatever experiences that we have with our. With, you know, the adults, the important people in our lives, I feel like the ruptures would always fall into one of those five categories.
- [17:23]
A
I love that. So is it common, though, for people like me to feel connected to, like you said, to more than one wound? And how should someone work with that without being overwhelmed or boxed in? So like you said, if somebody does find out, I want five of these.
- [17:38]
B
Yeah.
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A
How do they help themselves not feel overwhelmed or boxed into those wounds?
- [17:42]
B
Yeah. You know, I think it can feel a little overwhelming for, like, gosh, like, all of this resonates. Like, I really struggle to feel safe in relationships, or I. I struggle to trust, you know, my intimate partnership. Right. Like, it can feel like a lot. And I think, you know, maybe starting with. That's why the quiz kind of orient you to a primary one of like, okay, like, let's start with the one that you feel like you struggle with the most. And one of the best ways to kind of find your way into that, besides taking the quiz, is to really notice where you're most reactive in your life.
- [18:16]
A
Right?
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B
Like, where do I get the most reactive with whom?
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A
Right.
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B
What is that about? Our reactivity is a really good indicator. Like, it points an arrow directly towards our origin wounds. Right? Because reactivity lets us know that something here is familiar. You know, it's historical. Of course, we can get angry in the moment if something, you know, happens that feels unjust, etc, but usually that arrow is pointing back to something that's historical. You ever have a. Like, a reaction that feels bigger than what just happened, and you're like, whoa, what just went down? You know, like somebody just looks at you a certain way and you feel it take over your whole body, or you, you know, you do react in a. In a big way. You know, those are really good indicators that say, like, oh, this is not just about this moment right now.
- [19:03]
A
Yeah.
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B
Right. Like, it's not just because your friend walked in five minutes late or your, you know, your partner just cooked you a meal and. But they got the. They put the wrong. You're allergic to this thing, and they forgot, you know what. And like, boom. All of a sudden, right? Like, there's this big flip that takes place. These are. These are things that let us know that there's something historical that's happening here. And so that, like, it's not just about this moment, right. When we're super reactive, it lets us know that it has a lot to do with some other moments that happened back when. And, you know, our job is to explore what those. What those moments are that have really taken hold of our lives, right. That, like, really tell this story that make us struggle with our worth and belonging and so forth, and do some of that excavation work to heal the origin wounds so that they have less of a hold on us today. Yeah.
- [19:59]
A
I love it. Now, we spoke about this a little bit before the interview. That one thing that really stood out to me is how much it traces back to our family of origin. How do these wounds tend to show up later in our adult relationships or even how we move through the world?
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B
I mean, I think in every which way. Yeah. You know, it's like you're gonna be drawn. When we're talking about romantic relationships, we're drawn to people who embody and represent that which is familiar. And sometimes it's the beautiful parts of what's familiar and also the parts that are really hard. Right. And, you know, there's an opportunity in our romantic relationships to heal. Right. Like, there's an opportunity here for us to move through this thing that is so familiar in a different way than we used to move through it when I was a kid or a teenager with the adults in my life. So when you think about, like, how does it show up today? Okay, so like I said, with worthiness, you know, the, the high achiever, the performer, the like, maybe you don't have boundaries because you need to keep proving your worth as an adult. And you're like, okay, you say yes to everything and you, you don't, you don't want to miss out on anything and you want to like show up for everyone. You don't want to disappoint anyone because if you disappoint somebody, then you worry that they don't want to spend time with you or they're not going to invite you to the next thing or somebody's going to be hurt and let down and then they're going to withdraw from you. Right. So it's like shows up in sometimes the obvious of ways and also sometimes in the most subtle of ways. You know, I have a worthiness wound and a safety wound and there could be a little trust in there too. Sometimes it was not as strong, but it can show up. And I remember when I was dating my now husband at the time and we had gotten into a fight.
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A
Yep.
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B
And I don't, can't remember. I always tell the story. I can't remember what the fight was about, but I can remember that I just kept doubling down, tripling down, quadrupling down on proving my point. And he's sitting there and he's like, I got it, you know, like I got you. I'm like, I listen, I'm listening to you. I understand what you're saying. Right. Like he's diffusing the situation. He's, he's got it and I can't stop. And I remember having this out of body moment where I'm like, oh my gosh. I'm like watching myself just keep going, keep needing to be right, keep needing to prove my point. I can't stop, can't stop myself. Then finally I, I stop and a little bit of that shame enters in. I'm like, oh, like I should have relaxed. Good luck. A couple last words. Yeah, yeah. And I'm thinking, oh, maybe he's not going to want to be with me anymore. Like this wasn't, this wasn't a great look. And I moved out of the shame fairly quickly. And I, you know, I invite the listeners to, to do the same. Right. Like there's a behavior that we have that we don't like, or that we feel embarrassed about or ashamed of to look at that behavior and start to get curious about it. The question of, like, what does this behavior serve? Like, what function does this behavior hold? In what way is my need to be right or proving my point, trying to protect me? Okay, it's a really important question for everybody to ask themselves. It's not a question that lets you off the hook. Right. Just because we have context or there's a story to it, you know, we don't. Right. It doesn't say, okay, go ahead, this makes sense now. But we want, and we need to move out of shame and into curiosity to really understand, like, what about this is self protective? And when I did that, I've told you before, my parents went through a nine year divorce process. It was highly conflictual, a lot of manipulation, gaslighting, paranoia, emotional flooding, all of it. It was really hard to watch. And what I saw between my parents was, you know, manipulation and gaslighting. And in, you know, somebody who was so quick with their words, you know, somebody who was like masterful at being manipulative. And what that experience revealed to me at the time was that doing that, being right, no matter what, was safety and not being right was unsafe. Paranoia, confusion, couldn't stick with the words. Right. And. And so that was something that imprinted upon me in a really big way. Right. Was like, okay, if you're right, if you can prove your point, you're in control, right? You're safe. No one can take advantage of you, no one can manipulate you. Nothing bad can happen you here, right? If you can't prove your point, if you can't find a way to be right, then you're in harm's way. And so when you ask that question of like, how's the stuff, the wounding from the past, right. Show up now. You know, I look at my relationship in my, you know, very early 30s at the time, I'm like, oh, right. You know, like, if I don't look at this, I'm gonna. Anytime we get into a hard moment, anytime that we have a conflict, anytime he sees it one way and I see it another way, I'm gonna need to like buckle down.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And what happens when we do that, what happens when we move into a self protective state is we break connection with the other person. We're no longer relational. I can't be relational with you if I'm protecting myself. Right, Makes sense. Yeah, right. I can't be relation. I can't care about your experience. I Can't really love you in an active way. Right. When I am protecting myself. Myself, right. And when protecting myself is like what creates safety for me, right. Of course I'm gonna do that. Right. Because if I. If my nervous system is coding that I am in an unsafe situation, right. Based on the past, right. Then it's going to do whatever it needs to do to protect me. This is a beautiful behavior. Right. It's like, thank you, thank you, nervous system. But what happens is now we are no longer in connection, we are no longer in. In contact. And if I keep proving my point and pushing you away and proving why you're wrong, that's going to deteriorate our relationship over time. So maybe it can withstand it for a little bit. Right. Like we all have hard moments, Fine. But if I keep doing that, right. It's going to erode the relationship. So what we said before, great, context helps us make a bridge. But it's not the thing that allows us to just say like, okay, well here's my story. That's why I am the way that I am, period. Right. It's like, okay, here's my story. I make sense with context, you make sense with context. And I have to understand the ways in which my sense making is breaking connection between the two of us and essentially breaking our relationship. Right. So that's where that work is. Like, how do I understand me? How do I heal the things that I need to heal so that they don't hold such a charge? Do you know what I mean?
- [26:56]
A
Yes. Right.
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B
Like if it doesn't hold such a charge anymore because I have acknowledged it, I've witnessed my pain, I've grieved what I needed to grieve. Right then in the moments when my husband and I now get into hard moments, most of the time, like, there's not much of a char. I don't need to be right anymore. I don't need to prove my pain. Sometimes it still shows up, right.
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A
Like, this is who you are.
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B
Yeah. Like healing isn't about it never showing up ever again.
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A
Right?
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B
Right. It's about lessening the charge. It's about being able to move, to repair faster than awareness were before. Right. It's like it's moving the dial a right little bit by little bit by little bit. So yeah, just that's a demonstration, I think, for people to think about, like, yeah, like where's my reactivity? And what is something that I'm ashamed of or embarrassed of, like a behavior that I have and then to get curious about okay, so if I know that that is trying to protect me in some way, what's it protecting me from? And how does that tie into something from the past? Right. We are. Our systems are beautifully designed.
- [28:02]
A
Right.
- [28:03]
B
To be self protective. And sometimes that is for us and sometimes it really does a number relationship and on us. Right. And that's where as adults, our job is to like enter into the equation and not just be driven and run by the unconscious. Right. To move stuff into our conscious awareness. You've been using that word, Right. To become more aware of what's under the hood so that we have choice in our hands. You know, like be like I just did the. You know, that's not choice.
- [28:38]
A
Yeah.
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B
Right.
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A
That's just reacting.
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B
Yeah.
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A
You need to choose how you react.
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B
But the only way that we can move from survival to choice is by doing healing work. And I know that that's such an abstract word, like when people are like, what is healing?
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A
You know, But I think you said it though. You said what healing really is, is not sitting in the shame after you've had that reaction, but being curious.
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B
Yes.
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A
Why you had that reaction.
- [29:03]
B
Yes.
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A
That's where the healing starts.
- [29:05]
B
And it starts there. And then you just begin to move the needle a little bit. A little bit. A little bit. I had a client once who said she was so upset with herself. I can't believe it took me. I forget exactly the amount of time, but let's say I can't believe it took me six weeks to leave this relationship when I knew six weeks ago that I. That it should have ended. You know, she was so upset. And I remember looking at her and I had a grin on my face. And we have a good, you know, you have a good relationship. What are you smiling about? I said, you know, the last time it took you 10 years.
- [29:41]
A
This time it took you six months and six weeks.
- [29:45]
B
Six weeks. And that's all I needed to say, you know, And I got the nod back, like, yeah, we do not need to be perfect in these moments. Healing is not about never re. Entering into a pattern or doing something that you're trying so hard not to do. Right. It's about like seeing where we exit sooner, seeing where we put. Needing to be right down faster. Right. Like that is healing in motion. Yeah. My goodness. Ten years the last time, six weeks this time. Like, we call that healing, you know, and so sometimes we have to. As a therapist, I am changing out people's lenses on themselves. Like, okay, you're seeing yourself this way. This is how I See you. Yeah, like, what is that shift, Right? So, yeah, I know it can feel some people throw around that word healing. But to move from survival to choice, to move the dialogue ever so slightly is doing profound work in our lives.
- [30:46]
A
I love that you said move from survival to choice. I'll quickly bring up a quick story. I had to go pick up these. These, my cute little cue cards from FedEx. And I walked in and lady said, how are you feeling? I said, I'm feeling well. She said, well, that sounds better than good. I said, because I made the choice to feel well today. You know, I said, every morning we have a choice. You know, I could be mad at a lot of different things. I might have been running late. It's cold, it's this, it's that. But instead of surviving the day, I'm choosing the day. You know what I mean? So I love how you use those, those. Those two words. Now for a person out there right now that's watching this and they don't remember a lot from their childhood, how does that works to help them understand where their patterns come from?
- [31:26]
B
A lot of people don't have clear memories of childhood. And, you know, there's sometimes there. A lot of people have the thought that, you know, if you don't have access to some of it, it's because you're, you know, protecting yourself from, you know, feeling, touching, seeing, naming maybe is too much for you right now to actually access. You know, the majority of us, we can remember the highs and the lows, right? These kind of peak moments. We don't really remember a lot of the in between. You don't, don't worry about going back to the first. I know in this work, I say the origins, right? The first place that the rupture of worth, belonging, prioritization, trust and safety takes place. But if you can't remember that far back, then start where you can. And even if that's the last time, like, okay, the origins of something didn't necessarily have to be birthed when you were 4 or 7 or 12 or 18. The first time that you have had a rupture with trust could have happened two months ago, right? Like, maybe trust has never been ruptured, but the person you were just dating two months ago, you found out that they were cheating on you, right? Like, so start where you can, because sometimes people get tripped up because they're, like, looking. They think, okay, I have to look in the first seven years of my life. Otherwise, this is not what we're talking. We are not Only talking about that, widen the range and see where you can begin. Because you'll, you'll have something that you can touch. Even if we're thinking about something from just, you know, a few months ago or 10 years ago that you have access to. Begin there.
- [33:02]
A
Yeah. Speaking about beginning there. So something you're really clear about, and my favorite word this interview has been awareness. But that alone isn't enough.
- [33:11]
B
Right.
- [33:12]
A
Once someone identifies their origin wound, what does the actual healing start to look like when they go down that path?
- [33:19]
B
Yeah, so we've been touching a little bit.
- [33:21]
A
Yeah, we've been touching a little bit on this already now to elaborate on that.
- [33:25]
B
So, yeah, look, we. The awareness piece, the ability to name the wound. Because, you know, like I said before with the wound comparison piece, a lot of times we become very protective of the people in our lives. You started when you were introducing me, you're like, you know, we're not looking to blame our parents anything. So sometimes people become protective of their parents. They have fear of opening up Pandora's box. What am I going to find? Maybe we say, like, oh, they did the best that they could with what they had. That's a big narrative that people hear all the time. Maybe they were better than their parents were to them. Right. So we've got all these constraints around why we don't want to name what it is that we want to name. The awareness piece is, you know, obviously it's the step one, but it's so important that it's not just, okay, I have the awareness high level. There's something really important about being able to deeply acknowledge it.
- [34:22]
A
Right.
- [34:22]
B
Like without having to minimize it or distort it or explain it away or rationalize it, like, to truly acknowledge, like, maybe they were doing their best. And this is still my experience. Okay. So it's not just the awareness alone. Like, okay, we gotta acknowledge it. It then takes us on. You know, in the book I talk about the origin healing practice, right. And I have an origin healing method now that's like all the practices and guidebooks around healing the wounds. Part of this work to me has always been about inner child work. I don't know if you've heard that before. When we have these ruptures along the way, there's a fragment, there's a fragmentation that happens. And so, you know, if you think back to when you started filming or when there you felt like this deep pressure on yourself and, or the divorce, and I know you said similarly, like, I don't have a lot of memories from it, but like, maybe there was a rupture there. You know, I was in first grade. I remember like there's certain moments that stand out to me where I have real clear visuals of something that a kiddo shouldn't have needed to.
- [35:33]
A
I have a clear visual something too that I brought up, not to cut you off, but I brought up to my mother when she decided to leave my father. I told her this story of when we left the house. And I don't want to get into it, but I told her everything I remembered. And she looked at me and she said, how do you remember that? You were only three. And I was like, I don't even know how I remember something from three years old, but it must have ruptured me something. It must, it sticks in my mind. I remember grabbing my bottle, I remember her picking me up. I remember walking out the house and it's like, how do I remember that? But then I don't remember my fifth birthday. I can't give you that totally, you know.
- [36:09]
B
Yeah.
- [36:10]
A
So it's very interesting that you, you
- [36:11]
B
bring it up that way so it sounds like you and I have something similar. So I have a visual from probably like 8 or 9 years old. I used to sit at the top of the stairs in my mom's house. She would be on the phone downstairs with my father. And because I didn't get the same stories, I always. I'm an only child listening in. I. So I'd always be perched at the top of the stairs. And there was a. If you went down one set, there was a little opening into her little dining room. And so there were like little bars there so I could, I could listen in. And I used to sit up there and I have this visual where I see little me, you know, just like sweet 8, 9 year old girl who is doing something that a 8, 9 year old girl doesn't need to be doing. Like, I'm supposed to be a kid. We're all supposed to be kids. You were supposed to be a kid. You know, that pressure's not. Not meant for us in that way. And you know, in the book I talk about a witnessing process. And this can be very emotional for people, right, to like close down your eyes and bring that image of yourself at that age into focus again. And that's where mine is. That's where it starts for me is to like see what she was wearing and you know, how her hair was and to kind of pull up a chair to her, you know, to just bear witness to. I'm so sorry that this was your experience, you know, that you used to listen in on these adult conversations that were heated and hard.
- [37:58]
A
Not meant for you to hear.
- [37:59]
B
Not meant for me to hear. Not meant for me to process. But. But something that I did so that I could try to make sense of things. Like, I would perch atop. I would pick up the second phone line in both of their homes. And masterful at picking it up at a heated moment so that they couldn't hear the click, you know, I don't know how old you are.
- [38:20]
A
Oh, I know. I was born in 89. So you and I have a similar. Like, I know picking up the other phone and hearing what's going on.
- [38:30]
B
Jojo, put that phone down. You got to be really quick with it and masterful with it. And I was. But those were not conversations that I needed to hear. And. And so the witnessing part of the practice, right, Is like adult me in a regulated way, being able to pull up a chair next to her and just bear witness to this story, to this experience and offer something, you know,
- [38:56]
A
like, be there for her.
- [38:57]
B
Yeah, right. And we don't even have to have a full conversation about anything. Like, I'm just seeing you.
- [39:02]
A
Yeah, right.
- [39:03]
B
I'm just seeing you and connecting to what this experience was like for you. Grief, I always say, when stuck, grieve more. Grief moves things. Grief, to me, is the emotional expression. Right. That comes forward when we're authentically connecting to something painful. Right. So it's like, okay, when I bear witness to this younger part of me, it is opening up. And grief doesn't have to. It doesn't have to be tears. It doesn't have to look a specific way. Right. But it just opens something up. Right. It opens something up for me to feel authentically in this moment. Right. And to let something start to move. Yeah, right. You ever have a really good cry? I mean, if any.
- [39:51]
A
Starting to enjoy those a little bit more now that I'm older?
- [39:53]
B
Yeah. Yeah. It's like whenever you have something that just moves something out, right? Like, if anybody's had that, or. Or you just. Or you go for a great run or you go for. Right. Like. Or you hit the bag or what, you know, whatever it might be. But you. You. You move something out, right? That's what needs to happen for us. And sometimes we need to do that over and over and over and over and over again so that we get to that place where we're able to pivot. That's the last part of the healing practice. And that's where that shift from survival to choice happens. When we witness our pain, when we acknowledge it, when we witness it, when we grieve alongside of it. What happens is we put a bit of space in between the moments, between stimulus and our response, our reaction. When we put space in between something, right? What we were talking about before, boom, all of a sudden, like, there's that big reaction. I don't even know why I did the thing that I did. When we put space in between there, because we know we see each other, see ourselves, we understand we're connected to this story. We have more understanding and awareness of why I do, why I do what I do, why this pattern is here. That space allows for me to choose different things in that moment. And when I can choose differently in that moment, then I can speak clearly to you instead of passive aggressively. I can share my heart with you. Instead of having a wall up and being too boundaried. Right. I can tell you something that hurt me instead of fearing that me voicing something is going to make you leave. Right. That's what it opens up for us. And that's where change starts to happen in our own lives and in our relationship.
- [41:35]
A
Yeah. Now, us speaking about our past and, you know, family origins and things that we've experienced. And before I get into this question, this important question, I. When I started going down my journey of why, why am I the way I am and who, why, where, what parents this, that I made sure, because quickly you can wanna blame somebody, your parents, yourself, but I made sure to not put myself in that lane, that lens of, well, it's because of this person, it's because they divorced. So I'm mad at them. I was able to understand and be aware of that because maybe I'm just, I think a little bit on the deeper surface. But how do you help people that explore their family history, not blame their parents or themselves when they do open these wounds?
- [42:25]
B
What's the function of being mad and pissed off at them? What's that gonna do?
- [42:30]
A
Right? That's how I looked at it. It was like, okay, but now what if I am mad? If I do call my dad or my mom and say, well, why did you do this? Enough. I called a friend at me. What? Yeah, what is it, sir?
- [42:42]
B
You know, we can be angry. And actually I think anger and all, there's a place for it, you know, like sometimes we need to just.
- [42:51]
A
Every emotion you have, every emotion for a reason.
- [42:53]
B
And look, some of them didn't do so great, right? You know, like it's okay for us to connect with that. It's just not okay for us to stay there forever. You know what I mean? So it's like you gotta dip your toe in for a moment to be like, oh, I am pissed. And I feel really let down. Like, why didn't you get it together before this? Whatever it needs, you know, like, if those are some things that we need to get out of our system, okay, so be it. But what we'll say is that if you were to stay there forever, if that is the only path that you are on, then you can't actually be in control of your own life. You're in somebody else's lane, you know, and there is something so important about, like, sure, that happened. And we might feel strongly about it, and there might be a lot that we have to say about that, but at the end of the day, we become responsible for our own healing.
- [43:49]
A
Healing.
- [43:49]
B
Right.
- [43:50]
A
That's a fact.
- [43:50]
B
That's a fact. We become responsible for our own. And so we have to just turn that wheel at some point. And look, some people stay with that wheel, headed that direction for years, and then maybe they're able to turn it to them. Okay, whatever it needs to be for you on your process, on your path. Okay. But ultimately, if you only keep the wheel headed in that direction, then you don't get to be in charge of your own life. Life. You don't get to take control.
- [44:18]
A
You are choice like you're speak about.
- [44:20]
B
Yeah. You're controlled by everything outside of you.
- [44:23]
A
Yes.
- [44:23]
B
Right. And so sure, the things that happened to you. Right. May have come from other people. Your healing work is dependent on you being able to take ownership for what you need to do now at this point in your life.
- [44:40]
A
Yes. I love it. You spoke about your relationship and how you had that argument with your significant other, as we all do. Right. And we all try to find ways to make sure that they don't happen again. But I want to speak about what happens when two people have different origin wounds in a relationship. How does that awareness shift conflict or communication in that relationship?
- [45:05]
B
They often do. I mean, I would say that probably most of the time we're all rubbing up against different. Different wounds here and there. I think, you know, it's. It can be common that, you know, one person in a partnership has maybe more awareness or is doing more of this work than, you know, the other. And that's where it starts to feel like it tilts when you can get to people who are understanding their history and understanding their origin wounds. And they're like, I care about, I want to know what it was like for you growing up. Like, tell me about these experience, right? Like if I didn't know any of that, how am I going to relate to you? How am I going to understand what hurts you? How am I going to understand what supports you and helps you? How am I going to understand what your reactivity is all about? I'm not right? I have a blank slate then.
- [45:54]
A
Yes.
- [45:55]
B
Right? It is so necessary for us. And I know, so. Oh, I don't want to hear about your past. I don't want to hear about your past relationship. You know, all that. No, this is, this is the groundwork. Like, if I don't know about your family system, if I don't know what it was like for you growing up, if I don't know what hurt you, if I don't know what you needed most as a kid and didn't get, if I don't know those things as your partner, then I don't know you.
- [46:20]
A
Yes,
- [46:23]
B
we have to be brave and vulnerable to explore those things because it's the thing that allows for context and compassion and curiosity to come forward. Not to excuse each other's behavior, but so that there is a bridge between you and me. If I understand your pain, I can stay more relational with you, right? If I see you as a kiddo sometimes and not as the adult in front of me who I'm so pissed at right now, that helps, right? If I can remember that Jojo was once a 14 year old who had a lot of pressure on his shoulders and he was just trying to live up into his father's footsteps and this, that, the other, and, and I can hold that story when I'm like, oh, Jojo, I want to spend more time with you. And you're like, nope, I gotta go to this podcast and I gotta do this interview and I gotta do this. And I'm like, no, you're not spending time with me. I'm feeling deprioritized. You're like, yeah, but I gotta do this stuff and that stuff. And I'm like, oh, I see. You're. You're stuck in the doing right now because you might be chasing something, right? Like you're still trying to be valuable through doing as opposed to being valuable through being right.
- [47:31]
A
Are you in my household?
- [47:34]
B
So you know what I'm saying though, right? Is like, if I can hold 14 year old you in this experience in my heart, right? Then we are going to have a very different conversation. Yes, than if I don't know any part of that, I'm like, I can't believe you're doing this again.
- [47:53]
A
Yeah.
- [47:53]
B
You don't care about me. You always prioritize your work. You always want to be doing everything else outside the home. Right. It shifts what we are able to do as two human beings in a relationship. If I understand your story and you understand mine, if I hold compassion, if I have a line to a younger part of you and you have a line to a younger part of me, does that make sense?
- [48:17]
A
Yeah. No, it makes a lot of sense. And to add on to that question, like, so let's say somebody out there, oops, sorry, I bumped the mic. Like, let's say somebody out there took the quiz or is going to take the quiz after seeing this, and they want to share their results with their partner.
- [48:30]
B
Yeah.
- [48:30]
A
What's the healthiest way to do that? So it builds understanding and not defensiveness from the partner.
- [48:36]
B
Yeah. Well, I think that the good news about the quiz is that it's solely about the individual. Right. Like, it's not saying, all right, you got a worthiness wound. Here's how your partner's disappointing you and letting you die. You know, it's the bridge again, Right? It's saying, like, hey, you know, this is something that I'm wanting to understand more about myself, and I want you to learn this about me, too. Or, like, here's something really interesting that I learned in the quiz. Like, I hadn't thought about this before, or I have thought about it, but, whoa, like, it put different language to it, and I want to share this with you. I would love for you to take the quiz because maybe this is something that we could then talk about. I want to understand what your origin wounds are, and I want us to work on, you know, moving through these wounds when they get activated differently. Right. So I think it's a. It's a curiosity, and it's a. And it's framed in such a way that says, like, this is here to help us. Right. This is not here to hurt us, disconnect us. But it, you know, hopefully it wouldn't be something that people need to be defensive to, because it's an invitation. It's not saying, like, look at how you're. Well, that's what I would recommend. Right. Don't say, see, I have a worthiness
- [49:50]
A
wound, and you have to treat me this way. Yeah, yeah.
- [49:52]
B
So, like, use it as an invitation to understand you, to get curious and learn more about each other.
- [49:59]
A
I love that. Yeah. I'm gonna have my, I'm gonna send it to my wife to take the quiz. Haven't yet. Just because like I was sitting with my diagnosis. Right. But definitely I'm excited to have that conversation with her because she's like me, like, like she's down to find out what it all is and what it all means and what it all comes from. Right.
- [50:15]
B
You ever think of her as a kid?
- [50:19]
A
I haven't. But you saying that there was an argument we had years ago or I don't remember when it was and I remember kind of saying in my head like if only she knew I was just this 12 year old boy one time and just I'm still him but just grown now and still trying to figure it out. And I've got more responsibilities and I have a more knowledge obviously. But like we were all just kids before, right? Sweet little kids trying to figure it out, getting our heart broken, feeling not worthy, friends doing us wrong. We were all just kids before and I think you're so, it's so important like you said to sometimes look at the person in that lens and be like, just give me a hug, like I'm sorry, like I'm talking to you like you're 30 something years old but you still have that 12 year old in you at times.
- [51:05]
B
You know, like when we are in conflict and there's a rupture that's happening, it is so rare that we are 36 year old adult me in this moment, 40 year old adult me in this moment, anchored, grounded, when I'm upset, when I'm like really activated, I probably am more like a 12, 13 year old, right. And you know, you have to be careful. Everybody watch, watch yourself. Don't, don't ask your partner. This is not advice for me. Like how old do you feel right now in an argument that's gonna start an argument that'll really get going, but when you can from a very open hearted space, right? Like what you're saying. I'm just, I feel 12 right now, right. You know, like, oh, how old do you feel? You know and like what happens if 12 year old US sits and has a conversation? Like what's he want to know? What do I want you to know about my life? Like you see how the tone changes immediately. Like we're not adults stomping around any, right? It's like, hey, like what do you want to play with? You know, it's like it shifts everything. And so yeah, there's something really powerful and profound about remembering that when we are activated when we're no longer anchored and grounded as an adult, that a younger part of us is present.
- [52:25]
A
I hear that a lot with therapy and therapists. They say that a lot. So I know it's true of you all are saying one thing. It's all right. So. So speaking more about the origin quiz, I want to know how this connects to the deeper work you outlined in the Origins of you and Origin Healing Method. How does it all tie into that?
- [52:43]
B
Okay, so the book is the origins of you. I created an origin healing method which is over 400 pages worth of practices. So I think sometimes when people sit down and read a book and they're like, yes, and the aha moments are going. The light bulbs are going off. And there are some practices in the book too, but it's like, okay, now I know this stuff. What do I do with it? And so the method is a guidebook series. It's digital. You get it immediately. You know you can work with it. The same day is just pages upon pages and not meant to be overwhelming. I know sometimes that can sound like a lot, but like a companion for your entire year and all of the wounds. And so you can start with your primary one and start doing some of these practices, because this is like, we can know all of this about ourselves. Like you said before, awareness is key, but, like, it's not the whole picture. We have to put the practice into motion day in and day out if we want to see changes actually happen. It's like so many people can sit here and they say, this is the life that I want. Here's the relationship that I desire. I really mean. And it's not because people are lying and they don't mean it. Right. It's that, like, the survival strategies and the self protection comes into play day in and day out. And so we move away from the life and relationships that we. So the method is designed for you to be a companion for you day in and day out, to really practice the healing work that goes into this.
- [54:10]
A
Great. So if someone's listening, takes the quiz today and feels cracked open by what it reveals, what's the most supportive next step that you would recommend as a therapist?
- [54:22]
B
I would breathe. And I know that that sounds real simple.
- [54:27]
A
No, my last interview, somebody told me that breathing sounds simple, but it's so much more complex and it helps you so much more than you think.
- [54:35]
B
If you're cracked open, I would just take a beat and I would come back into your breath. I would listen to music that grounds you I would get out into nature, go for a walk, move your body. You know, just something to like, oh, I've tapped on something big.
- [54:54]
A
Yeah, right.
- [54:54]
B
Like cracked open. That's a powerful word. Right? That's a powerful experience. Like, oh, something big just happened, and I don't know if I'm prepared and ready to do what I need to do with this big thing that just cracked open. And so instead of trying to do something with it that you're not ready to do. Breathe.
- [55:15]
A
Yes.
- [55:15]
B
Regulate your nervous system. Come back into your body. Because sometimes we crack open and then we want to eject from ourselves.
- [55:21]
A
Like, whoa, nope, too much.
- [55:23]
B
Too much. You know, like, give me the drink, give me the this, give me that. Right? It's like, okay, so come back into your body. Nervous system regulation is letting you know that you're safe. Yeah, right. That's why I said breathe. Get out into nature. Listen to music that grounds you and anchors you, that lets you know you're safe. Okay? You're cracked open and you're safe. You're cracked open and you're safe. Just because you cracked open does not mean it's going to be too much with. We can go at a pace that works for you. So regulate.
- [55:52]
A
I love regulate and I love breathe. That I've been hearing that a lot lately. So work on your breathing out there, guys. Make sure you're working on your. I know. It just seems like we just. We do it every day because we do. Intentional. But breathing intentionally could change your life, you know? I feel like it can. So, you know, as we wrap this up, you know, I'd love to know at the heart of all of this, what do you hope people understand about themselves after learning their origins wound?
- [56:17]
B
That you make sense. When you understand your story, everything you do today makes sense. You know, I haven't met anybody who's like, I love every last thing that I do. You know, I love. Right. It's like, no, we have. We are at odds with certain parts of ourselves sometimes, right? We're like, oh, that behavior. I wish I didn't do that so much. Or like, oh, I feel a little ashamed, embarrassed about. Right. So doing this work helps us make sense, helps our part, helps us make sense of the people we love, too. And so when we can start to make sense of things and then use that sense making to create change, choice gets put into your hands and it
- [57:01]
A
all goes back to the word choice. It's all about making that choice and choosing well. Vienna, I really do appreciate you coming on the forego podcast. This episode has been amazing. This conversation is needed, it's a necessity. I'm sure so many people will be tuning in to hear what you got to say. This is the work that needs to be done for humans, for human beings, no matter the race, no matter the culture. I think we all need to dig deep and find out who we are. We all need to dig deep and find out what makes us tick and what makes us happy. We all need to dig deep and find us right. Find who you are, find how you operate, find how you love, find how you connect, find how you communicate. And I think the work that you've been doing, his helping people, you know, my first time ever coming in contact with you and I was so excited to talk to you before the cameras even came on because you give so much knowledge on it and you help us help us help me help people understand that are taking the quiz or do take the quiz, that there's deeper meaning to your life and there's deeper meaning to the things that you do. So I always do this. I gotta give you your four good flowers. Even though we actually have flowers. I give people their four good flowers that come on the For Good podcast because people that we talk to are intentional. People that we talk to are giving back to not only themselves, but to the community. And what you're doing is not a self selfish job. It's a selfless job because you're making sure that everybody is healing, not just yourself. So thank you so much, Vienna, for coming on the For Good podcast, everybody. We will see you guys next time on the For Good podcast where we focus on the good, never the bad. And we'll be measured by what we do, not what we have. Till next time, guys. The For Good podcast, it's your guy, Jojo Simmons, signing out Vienna Farron, Peace.