Election Currents

Summary

For Heaven’s Sake — "Election Currents"

Host: Shalom Hartman Institute (Donniel Hartman, Yossi Klein Halevi)
Date: February 4, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode, Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi dissect the complex political climate surrounding the upcoming Israeli elections, highlighting the major undercurrents shaping electoral discourse. Amid lingering war and monumental uncertainty, they focus on three emerging trends: the polarization around the inclusion/exclusion of ultra-Orthodox and Arab Israelis in coalitions, the coalescence of Arab parties around pressing local issues, and the looming electoral stalemate. The conversation emphasizes how these dynamics reflect deeper questions about Israeli identity, belonging, and the prospects for societal integration or division.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Defining the "Outsider": Ultra-Orthodox vs. Arab Israelis

• Polarization of Political Discourse:
  • Israeli elections are increasingly framed around which community—ultra-Orthodox or Arab Israelis—is less legitimate as a coalition partner.
  • Both groups have tenuous relationships with the Israeli mainstream and the traditional balance of Jewish and democratic statehood.
• Right vs. Opposition Narratives:
  • Right/Likud (Netanyahu’s camp): Framing opposition as likely to sit with Arab parties, especially Mansour Abbas' Ra'am, painting them as security risks despite Ra'am's moderation.
  • Opposition: Prioritizing a reset of the state-ultra-Orthodox relationship, vowing to curb what they see as excessive subsidies and to push for Haredi societal integration.
• Philosophical Framing:
  • The conversation moves from past personality-focused (Bibi vs. Not Bibi) to deep-seated ideological questions about Jewish and democratic visions for Israel.
  • Collective Identity Through Opposition: Communities often strengthen identity by defining outsiders, though this carries moral risks.
• Nuanced Distinction:
  • Exclusion of Haredim is framed as a path toward future inclusion via integration, while exclusion of Arab parties is absolute.

Notable Quotes:

• Yossi Klein Halevi [05:05]:
  “The ultra Orthodox want more Jewish, less democratic. And the Arabs want less Jewish and more democratic.”
• Daniel Goodman [08:21]:
  “Most communities...build a coherent collective identity by finding that group. Who are your outsiders.”

---

2. Arab Political Unity and Prioritizing Domestic Security

• Arab Parties Unite:
  • Running under a single banner to consolidate votes, which polls suggest could significantly increase their representation.
• Shift to Local Agendas:
  • Widespread violence and lawlessness in Arab communities has overtaken Palestinian national issues as the number one concern.
  • Security, employment, and health trump nationalist rhetoric, driving voter priorities and party platforms.
• Historic Jewish-Arab Demonstration:
  • Arab leaders' call for a large protest in Tel Aviv focusing on violence in Arab society resulted in an unprecedented show of Jewish-Arab solidarity, with thousands of mainstream Jews joining and Israeli, not Palestinian, flags flying.
• Pragmatic Partnership:
  • Arab politicians, led by Mansour Abbas, shift rhetoric and strategy to seek inclusion within the Israeli mainstream, emphasizing shared interests over identity politics.

Notable Quotes:

• Daniel Goodman [14:36]: “That priority is not Palestinian state. That priority fits every single poll ... the answer is always personal security and safety.”
• Yossi Klein Halevi [19:21]: “This was really an historic event. It was the largest joint Jewish Arab demonstration in memory—maybe in the history of the state.”
• Daniel Goodman [23:34]: “I did it because I’m a Zionist ... Zionism is about building a sovereign state ... sovereignty is also a sovereign state of mind.”

---

3. Entrenched Stalemate and Uncertain Future

• Paralysis in the Electoral Map:
  • Neither the right-wing coalition nor the opposition is able to command a majority, mirroring the persistent political deadlock of recent years.
  • With Haredi and Arab parties carving out separate, uncompromising positions, the likelihood of a governing majority is slim.
• Potential Pathways Forward:
  • Minority government supported externally by Arab parties for select policy changes (e.g., crime reduction in Arab society, commission on October 7), though not a stable long-term solution.
  • Ongoing deadlock may force repeated elections or push for leadership changes within Likud if Netanyahu continues to fail to form a government.
• Denial and Anxiety:
  • Despite the high stakes, there’s a collective sense of denial about the unsolvable nature of the situation and a lack of concrete plans for moving beyond stalemate.
• Focus on Broad Consensus Issues:
  • Even an interim government could prioritize urgent, widely-supported reforms, particularly regarding Haredi draft and fighting organized crime.

Notable Quotes:

• Daniel Goodman [27:00]: “Neither side, unless something changes, is going to be able to put together the next coalition... we’re really going back five years to that stalemate.”
• Yossi Klein Halevi [30:38]: “Bennett has a Talmudic loophole, which is... I promise not to form a government with an Arab party, but Mansoor Abbas can support my government from outside.”
• Daniel Goodman [32:44]: “There’s a stalemate, but that stalemate doesn’t necessarily mean just continued elections. There’ll be a shift in government in the midst of that.”

---

Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On the “Chametz” Legal Fiction:
  Yossi Klein Halevi [02:20-02:55]:
  Banters about Jews possibly finding a “legal fiction” (like selling chametz on Passover) to resolve draft exemption deadlock.
• On Jews and Arabs Demonstrating Together:
  Yossi Klein Halevi [20:25]:
  “Always their favorite Jews, the Jews who are also advocating for a binational state. All 15 of them.”
• On Hartman Institute’s Stance:
  Daniel Goodman [23:34]:
  “I did it because I’m a Zionist ... a real country, we citizens care for each other.”

---

Important Segment Timestamps

• [00:10–05:05] — Framing the central question: Inclusion/exclusion of Haredim and Arabs
• [08:03–10:30] — From personality to ideology: “Othering” as identity construction
• [13:08–14:36] — Mansour Abbas, Arab inclusion, and the opposition’s priorities
• [14:36–19:21] — Arab parties unite, focus on local crime, and the Tel Aviv demonstration
• [19:21–22:09] — New Jewish-Arab solidarity and its potential for Israel
• [22:32–24:55] — Hartman’s support for Arab protesters and the meaning of Zionism
• [26:01–27:55] — Stalemate revisited: coalition math and the Netanyahu impasse
• [30:38–32:44] — Interim/minority government scenario, options for change
• [33:10–33:20] — Wild cards and unpredictability ahead of elections

---

Summary: Why This Episode Matters

"Election Currents" offers a candid, nuanced look at how Israeli society is being reshaped by political blocks and the redefinition of civic priorities. The conversation draws a vivid picture of shifting alliances, deep social challenges, and the stubborn complexities facing Israeli democracy, ending with a cautious hope that shared civic action—rather than mere electoral victory—can open new possibilities for the country’s future.

---

Listeners are left with a sense of critical uncertainty, but also an appreciation for the emergence of new, pragmatic solidarities across historic divides.

Transcript

[Elana Steinhein]

You are listening to an art media podcast.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

Which group of Israelis do you detest more? Or are you more afraid of? Is it the ultra Orthodox or the Arab Israelis? Or to put it another way, which community of Israelis do you regard as Persona non grata for the next coalition? These are the two communities that have a very tangential relationship with the Israeli mainstream.

[Daniel Goodman]

As we're coming closer to elections, we're used to thinking that elections are going to resolve, solve our problems, someone's going to win. But there's a stalemate and I feel like Israelis are watching it, but they're not inhaling it. This election is momentous for everybody. We know what's at stake, but it's not resolving anything.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

Foreign.

[Daniel Goodman]

This is Danielle Hartman and Yossi Kleine Levi from the Shalom Hartman Institute. And this is our podcast, for heaven's sake. Nice to be with you, Yossi.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

It's great to be with you, Danil.

[Daniel Goodman]

This podcast is in collaboration with our friends at Arc Media and today is Tuesday, February 3rd and our theme for today we entitled Election Currents. Even though there's potentially a life changing war all around us, the thing that is infusing most of the political media discourse in Israel right now is the upcoming elections. Last Wednesday the government succeeded in passing the first reading of the budget, which if they hadn't passed it by Wednesday night, would have automatically triggered new elections. So they gained a couple of months. The ultra orthodox agreed that we don't like what's written, but we're not going to step away right now. And now there's two months to iron out basically a draft exemption deal. Whether they could do so or not is not really clear. Someone's going to have to climb down from some tree or a ladder. Will it be the ultra Orthodox?

[Yossi Klein Levi]

Unlikely.

[Daniel Goodman]

Unlikely. Unless you could come up with some amorphic halachic category like selling Chametz. You know it's in your house, but it's not yours. There might be some definition, Daniel.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

It's a great metaphor, but for people who don't understand it, it's going to take too long to explain.

[Daniel Goodman]

Okay, just. Just know that we Jews have no chomets 11 something during Passover in our house. Because if we have it in our house, we sell it. So it's not ours.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

A legal fiction.

[Daniel Goodman]

It's a legal fiction, so we might come up with some.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

You did it.

[Daniel Goodman]

I did. It was not so hard. I don't know if everybody knows what Levant is, but I don't even know if I know what Leaven is.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

It's one of those words that Jews think is English.

[Daniel Goodman]

Right?

[Yossi Klein Levi]

Right.

[Daniel Goodman]

So let's just call it Chametz, the bread stuff, if it has some bready stuff in it. But in any event, they might come up where they're going to say it's this and it's not exactly that, but it doesn't look likely. Opposite them, the religious Zionist community and the Religious Zionist party is putting forth very clear demands of changes they want to put in the legislation, which it doesn't seem likely that the ultra orthodox are going to accept. And now there's also groups, some individuals within the Likud Party who are saying we also. This is an issue for us too. And we're not just going to vote and accept a draft bill, which is basically a draft exemption bill instead of a draft haredi bill. How this gets worked out, it's going to require some magic if it doesn't get worked out. March 31st triggers a three month clock and by the end of June we have new elections. If somehow it gets passed. The elections by law are supposed to be towards the end of October. They might be moved to September, but we are now in the stretch, the sixth eight month stretch of elections. And this is what everybody's talking about. And what we thought we would do today is that we've highlighted a number of parties and a number of key issues over the last few months and we'll continue to do so. But right now we want to just take the pulse of what are some of the key issues that are shaping the election discourse and what does it mean for the future? What does it mean for how our society might land? And so, Yossi, as you're watching this election season, let's leave aside the nastiness, let's leave aside all of that. More and more people are emerging. Clear policy statements are coming forth. What seems to you to be one of the more interesting currents that are happening right now?

[Yossi Klein Levi]

Well, you know, Daniil, if you listen to the attacks of one side against the other, what's shaping up, at least for now? And obviously the issues can change. But for now, the issue is which group of Israelis do you detest more or are you more afraid of? Is it the ultra Orthodox or the Arab Israelis? Or to put it another way, which community of Israelis do you regard as Persona non grata or for the next coalition? And these are the two communities that have a very tangential relationship with the Israeli mainstream and with the basic Israeli ethos of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state. The ultra Orthodox want more Jewish Less democratic. And the Arabs want less Jewish and more democratic. And the government. So far, the Likud Netanyahu is focusing his main attack on the opposition on the assumption that they would sit with one of the Arab parties. And we went into this the other week, it's the party of Mansoor Abbas Ram, and they're accusing Ram of being a Muslim Brotherhood party, which it once was. But Mansoor Abbas is one of those extraordinary political figures who comes along once in a generation who actually changes the political reality. And he did so by recognizing Israel as a Jewish state, the first mainstream Arab Israeli political leader who did so. And so the government, Netanyahu is trying to pretend that that didn't happen and to taint the opposition with the, quote, accusation that they're going to sit with an Arab party. Now the opposition is pushing back and saying, well, we don't want the ultra orthodox in the next coalition because our number one agenda, the first thing we're going to do when we come back into power is change the lopsided arrangement between the state and the ultra Orthodox community. We're going to stop the extravagant subsidies to the ultra orthodox, which enables their separatist community to thrive, which enables separatism altogether. And we're going to begin the process of forcibly integrating the ultra orthodox into the mainstream. So which party, which community do you regard as more dangerous to the state? And really what the right is saying is that you can't trust an Arab party in government for security reasons. And what the opposition is saying is you can't continue this arrangement with the ultra orthodox for security reasons. Exactly. Right.

[Daniel Goodman]

No, it's really interesting. As I was hearing you talk, you notice this shifted. For three years, the conversation was just Bibi, just not Bibi.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

That's a great insight. That was the boundary and now it's just the ultra orthodox. Not the ultra orthodox or the Arab Israelis.

[Daniel Goodman]

But there's a maturation to that because it was all very personal. And as we're getting closer to the election, these are serious issues. Now, there's a reason for doing that, because most communities, unfortunately, the way you build a coherent collective identity is by finding that group. Who are your outsiders. You define yourself by who you're not because very often what unites you, it's very hard to come up with a list. What do you care about? In our tradition, there's a fascinating move. You know, we have 613 commandments, 4,973 rabbinic developments on these command.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

Is that a real number?

[Daniel Goodman]

No.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

I was so impressed.

[Daniel Goodman]

Maybe I shouldn't tell everybody.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

Never heard that before.

[Daniel Goodman]

Next time it'll be 5612. Whatever it might be, whatever it.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

You can fool a lot of us.

[Daniel Goodman]

I can fool a lot of us. It's just a bunch. Like we. We're a religion of lots of stuff. So you know what our rabbinic tradition says, whoever rejects idolatry, it's as if they've accepted the whole Torah. Here it is. What are you against? Here it is. In a world of monotheism versus idolatry. Are you against idolatry? Here you're in. And in many ways it's a move that all communities do, but it very often is associated with tremendous injustice, especially when your outsider is somebody who is a part of your community. And so you're developing a sense of collective cohesion.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

But you know, there's at a price, okay, but there actually is a difference between the opposition's demand to exclude the ultra orthodox from the next government and the right's demand to exclude the Arab parties. And the difference is the opposition is offering a positive vision for Israel. It's not just about excluding the ultra orthodox. In fact, it's the opposite. We need to exclude them in order to implement certain changes that will enable them to join the mainstream. What the government is saying is we don't want the Arab parties, we don't want the Arab community to be a part of us under any circumstances.

[Daniel Goodman]

See, there is an argument, and I know you're giving a Talmudic argument of his distinction.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

I'm going right into this.

[Daniel Goodman]

You're going right. You're right. I just want to suggest that it could be that both sides are offering a positive thing, even though you're not presenting it as such. Because one of the interesting attacks against the Arab parties is if we have to go to war, if October 7th happened, would we have the mandate to fight a two year war? Would this government last? And everybody's aware, the idea is we need in the government somebody who will support whatever war we need to fight, as if that is the way in which our security is enhanced. And as that conversation develops, there's another side. And we've saw this, this last war who said that our security is enhanced by support for the war. Maybe security is enhanced by someone saying stop fighting. So the notion that the only people who could sit in our government are those who will have no conditions about us fighting another day. Maybe it's time to realize that our security on all of its levels might be enhanced by that limitation. But either way, the argument is we are in a dangerous neighborhood. I'm Likud. What's my vision for you? My vision is safety. What's going to give you safety? Ah, I know. That's why there's an inner contradiction. If you're advocating for safety, the exemption of the ultra orthodox, you know, okay, your safety is now built on a smaller number of people which have to carry an unbearable burden. But these two sides. But as you said, there is something ideological being put forth. It's not a just bibi. Not a just not bibi. But at the same time we're splitting our. You're the other. There's clear lines and you could see amongst the opposition, especially where there is a whole spectrum of opinions on most issues, I think most agree on state religion, even though not completely economics, more or less even security. But on the Palestinian front, on international relationships, some of the central issues facing the future of Israel, the coalition government will have difficulty coalescing. But at least like, you know, as I was sitting with Avigdor Lieberman the other day, who says the first law that we're gonna pass is going to be the creation of a state commission of inquiry and the into October 7th into October 7th and the second one is a universal draft law for every 18 year old.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

That's a vision whose ultimate purpose is inclusion. And I would feel better about the Right and I take its argument seriously about security. And it certainly applies to one of the Arab parties. It does not apply to the party headed by Mansur Abbasa. And we know that because we already have experience. They already were part of a government. There were military actions that the government took. And Mansoor Abbas's position was we're not getting involved. Fair enough in that issue.

[Daniel Goodman]

Fair enough.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

So I would feel a lot better about the Right if they would offer a positive vision of long term inclusion of Arabs into the Israeli mainstream. What's the plan? Okay, for security reasons you want to keep out the Arab parties and it's a fair argument. What else are you offering?

[Daniel Goodman]

Fair enough. Whether which one is having a better campaign or not. We'll leave that aside for now. Let's go to a second current. Okay, there's an interesting current happening. At the same time, two things happening. They're connected and that is the decision of the Arab parties to run under one single banner, not to remove the individual parties. They're going to run under one banner so that no votes will be lost. And now in the polls they're jumped from 10 seats to 13 seats and it might even go up to 14. 15 depends on the turnout they've had.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

15.

[Daniel Goodman]

It all will depend on the turnout and the reason why. And this is the second current that I wanted to point to is the coalescing around a priority for Arab society. And that priority is not Palestinian state. That priority fits every single pole that has been taken within Arab society. When you ask what is the most important issue for you right now as an Israeli Arab Palestinian, and the answer is always personal security and safety. The takeover of Arab society by literally underworld mobs who are shooting. And you see these videos in social media and Israeli television of people brazenly just walking in the street with submachine guns, just spraying.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

And literally every day there's another casualty.

[Daniel Goodman]

Every day there's another casualty every day. And there's communities where people don't go out after 8 o' clock at night or now it's earlier 6 o'.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

Clock.

[Daniel Goodman]

The dark is dangerous. Store owners protection. It is defining everyday life for Israeli Arab Palestinian society. And there was a day of, is it called, of striking in the society where everybody stopped. And the next day after there were demonstrations, the parties decided we have to join because this is our central issue.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

Right, but they will break up after the election.

[Daniel Goodman]

They can if they want to, right? If they want to.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

Abbas said that he.

[Daniel Goodman]

Abbas says and they were very clear we're going to run together. But the decision to run together is a decision to say what are the issues of Israeli Arab society. And in many ways it's an Abbas move because Abbas said all along he was the first, he was the first one to say, listen, I'm a minority. I'm running here not to dictate Israel's foreign policy. I have foreign policy agendas. I don't even want to dictate what state and religion issues are, even though I'm on the more conservative religious side. I have a primary agenda that is that I have a minority that's not being served. I have a minority that the majority is not seeing. And the fact that we're not in the government and in the coalition makes it easy for you not to see us because you don't have any incentive in that sense. I'm not in your voter bloc or a priority for your own victory. Let's change that by doing this. What they too are saying, all of us. Our agenda is now going to be the well being of Israeli Arab Palestinians. And the big beef that Israelis very often have against the parties themselves, the Arab parties, is that there's a huge discrepancy vis a vis what they talk about every day and what the interests of the Israeli Arab community are. They want security. The second issue is jobs. The third issue is health. Like this is economic. And then Palestinian rights comes in fifth and lower in their issues. But when you see the politicians, they also are using a othering and we're Arab, we're not you. And the rhetoric between them has just widened the schism and it plays into the hands of the right wing. So their shift to do this is to say, you know, we want to run on a local agenda. All politics are local. We want to deal first and foremost with the well being of Israeli Arabs. Now there's one other dimension to this and that is this is an issue that Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs could actually get together on. Violence in the Arab sector is not. Even though it doesn't affect the average Israeli Jewish, it violates our sense of decency. You know, this is not a political agenda, it's not a security agenda. When people are being murdered at numbers that are mind boggling higher than ever before ever before. During the Bennett coalition these murders were cut in half. Now they're just, it's off the charts.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

And Ben Vere's police is turning a blind eye.

[Daniel Goodman]

That's the crucial point. Or either his police or the priorities of the government haven't been to allocate mass new funding to create more and more police to deal with this issue. This is an issue that Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs could actually come together on. And they did. And last Saturday night, as you know, you and I, we went to Tel Aviv for the first time. The Israeli Arab community, when they wanted to protest, they didn't protest in Sakhnin, they didn't protest in an Arab town or city. They said I'm coming to Tel Aviv, I'm bringing this into the center of.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

Called on Jews to join them. And we did in the thousands. This was really an historic event. It was the largest joint Jewish Arab demonstration in memory maybe in the history of the state. And it's interesting Daniil, because you were talking about the changes that are the extraordinary changes that are happening within Arab politics. And here again Mansoor Abbas was the trailblazer. But the fact that thousands of Jews showed up to an Arab sponsored demonstration in Tel Aviv, some bringing Israeli flags, there were no Palestinian flags at this demonstration.

[Daniel Goodman]

That's right.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

You know, in the past when Ayman Odeh and Ahmad Tibi, when they would lead demonstrations of the Arab sector, you would see a sea of Palestinian flags, not one Palestinian flag because they want an alliance with mainstream Jews. Now they have had demonstrations with far left anti Zionist Jews. That's not what they were looking for.

[Daniel Goodman]

Always their favorite Jews, you know, the Jews who are also advocating for a binational state. All 15 of them.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

That's right. The good Israeli Jews.

[Daniel Goodman]

The good Israeli Jews, right.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

And this time they issued a call for mainstream Jews to come. And I have to tell you, you know, when, when you called me and said, let's go, and my immediate response was, yes, we should do this, but I had this idea in the back of my mind that if the rhetoric starts turning against Israel and it could have come from any number of speakers, then I'm out of here. I'm not going to demonstrate, even though I feel so passionately about this issue. And so part of me was always waiting. Ah, Jamal Zakhalka is speaking. He was from the very anti Zionist party, Balat. I said, here it comes. And it didn't come. And so there was this restraint because they want a pragmatic alliance with Zionist Israelis, Israeli Jews. And so the fact that they issued this invitation restrained themselves. And we show up with Israeli flags. A new dynamic was born. And it's tantalizing to think where this might go. One of the speakers said, this is the largest expression of a joint civic action by Israeli Arabs and Israeli Jews. And that's something extraordinary. Will Palestinian citizens of Israel, as you call them, I call them Arab Israelis because if you notice at the demonstration, they call themselves Arabs. They didn't call themselves.

[Daniel Goodman]

They were on their best behavior.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

They didn't call themselves Palestinians. And so is there a new dynamic at work where the Arab community focuses on domestic issues and Israeli Jews join them in a kind of a neutral civic ground? This is a tremendous opening for Israeli society.

[Daniel Goodman]

It's a tremendous opening. And you know our colleague Rana Fahum, the day after the demonstration, I saw her. And since the war started, it hasn't been easy for her. It's not easy working in a Zionist institution which you believe is attacking unjustly and killing your people. She has two people.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

Well, she has one people. And she has a state.

[Daniel Goodman]

And she has a state. But whatever, however, I'll call it two people. And to see her the next day, there was something exuberant like Jews showed up and said, this is what should be. And it was really interesting. The demonstration which happened the week earlier, the protest, everybody in the Arab sector didn't show up for work. And the Hartman Institute announced that any worker from the Hartman Institute who wanted a strike that day in identification with the Israeli Arab Palestinian community and protest the violence against them, had a right to do so. And it wouldn't be a personal day. We made this announcement, and it was.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

Open to Jewish staff and anybody who wanted to.

[Daniel Goodman]

What was interesting is that the radio then contacted us and so would you like to talk about this? Because there weren't a lot of Jewish institutions that did this. And so I was on the radio and they said, why did you do this? And my response was, I did it because I'm a Zionist. It was like the opposite of the opposite. I said, why? Because Zionism is not just about creating a safe homeland for the Jewish people. Zionism is about building a sovereign state. And as our colleague Tal Becker says, sovereignty is not just holding onto space to the exclusion of all others. Sovereignty is also a sovereign state of mind. And a sovereign state of mind means that we have citizens. And so here it is. It's opening the possibility of a different conversation. It's not because we love the strangers, because they're not strangers. It's not Jewish values. It's, are we going to be a real country? And a real country, we citizens care for each other. And that night, we saw with Israeli flags, there weren't a huge number. I didn't bring my Israeli flag because I wasn't sure. I didn't know where I was coming. Like, it was enough that you and I were wearing our kipahs. Like, I didn't know if someone.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

I know. I felt that that was showing the flag.

[Daniel Goodman]

No, that was our flag. But I wasn't sure, like, whether we were going to be like, who are these people coming in?

[Yossi Klein Levi]

Well, if we would have come with kipot and Israeli flags, people might have thought that we're coming to.

[Daniel Goodman]

It might have been tabata harass. So it might have been, too.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

That was my concern. Me too. But you know, Daniil, when you're.

[Daniel Goodman]

It's interesting we didn't talk about it.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

But we all came up with the same instinct. But when you were talking about participating or offering Hartman staff to participate in the strike as a Zionist move, I felt the same thing about the demonstration. Because what was the demand that the Arab community was making? Govern. And they said it. You're a government. You're the state. We're not in control. You are. So govern. Impose your rule on our society. And I'm listening to that and saying, this is Zionism 101. And the shame that we need the Israeli minority to lecture the government about how to impose the sovereign authority of a Jewish state.

[Daniel Goodman]

Which is Ben Vere's catch all phrase.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

Oh. And what he's doing in the Arab sector is exactly the opposite. He's reneging on state authority.

[Daniel Goodman]

Which brings us now to the third current. I'd call it a stalemate. We've seen it since October, the first two years. The Likud was down, the coalition was 44, 5, 6, 7. Opposition. If they coalesced together without the Arab parties, they still had 62, 63. Since October it's gone down to 59 to 51, that's 110 and 10 seats go to the Israeli Arab various parties. Now with the Israeli Arab parties coalescing, they're taking 13. And it's clear that neither side, unless something changes, is going to be able to put together the next coalition. And so we're prancing along, coming to the next election, but we're really going back five years to that stalemate, to that famous stalemate where neither side could.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

Win for three consecutive years, which then.

[Daniel Goodman]

Caused Bennett to break with the right and changing the whole map of Israeli politics. But right now I haven't seen a single poll that gives the Bennett coalition more than 59 very often. Now with the latest polls it could be 58. Likud could sometimes go to 50, 51. I haven't seen polls where it dips below 50. So Netanyahu is very strong in his community. The Haredim are doing their work, they have their constituents. Ben vere is getting 8, 9, smotrich under the threshold and if he joins Ben Veer they might even go up one seat because nothing will get lost or however that gets factored. But he's not anywhere near 60, not even in the vicinity. Netanyahu, except for the Channel 14 poll which has him winning 70 seats.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

Now Channel 14 of course is his propaganda station.

[Daniel Goodman]

So it's just very funny. Everybody else is polling, you know, maybe the joke will be on us, but everybody else is polling. And all of a sudden Netanyahu polls his party, I think gets 50 something seats according to their some insane number. Like it's just a, it's a different universe. But in any event, I'll leave that aside, maybe that's the reality and then we really are in trouble. But either way he's not near a coalition. But Bennett is close. But he has just declared unequivocally today again that I have no mandate to form a coalition based on the Arab parties. So even if Mansoor Abbas, with the amalgamation of the Arab parties actually increases, instead of just five seats, it could Be six and seven and then he could break off. He's declaring now. He said, I made a mistake. I promised in the past that I wouldn't. And now I just don't believe I have a mandate to do so. There is no mandate. So he has shut the door on forming a coalition. This connects to your first point. He now is both. He's outing both the ultra orthodox as coalition partners and Mansoor Abbas not as a coalition partner, but as a coalition partner on the basis of which he forms a majority government. And that leads us to a stalemate where it's not clear what it means. In theory, we might have two, three again the same election cycle. And then the only question would be at what point if he leads the Likud straight to three consecutive defeats, does Netanyahu resign? What happens in the meantime? Because once there are elections, the government stays in power until a new government comes in. So does that mean that this government could stay in for another six, eight months? Will Bennett and his coalition form a minority government without the Arab parties, but with their support from the outside, so that at least while these election cycles are happening, there's a chance to just put new people in power? Will that create some shift in their favor or not? As we're coming closer to elections, we're used to thinking that elections are going to resolve, solve our problems, someone's going to win. But there's a stalemate. And I feel like Israelis are watching it, but they're not inhaling it. Like, this election is momentous for everybody. We know what's at stake, but it's not resolving anything. And so it's a current of denial. And what are your plans for this stalemate? Is the third current that I wanted to share. Any thoughts about this current?

[Yossi Klein Levi]

Yeah, I think that Bennett has a Talmudic loophole, which is, okay, I promise not to form a government with an Arab party, but Mansoor Abbas can support my government from outside the coalition in exchange for the coalition committing first of all to take seriously the problem of organized crime in the Arab sector and of course to deal with Arab economic issues. And that's a trade off I could see Mansoor Abbas agreeing to. Now, it's not a recipe for a stable government, a minority government being supported by in our party from outside. It will lead to new elections. But at least in the interim, we will have broken the hold of this terrible government and begin the process of, well, what Lieberman said to you, that forming a commission of inquiry, that's the number one priority. And beginning the process the very difficult and painful process of changing the ground rules in relations to the ultra orthodox. So there are other options. Options.

[Daniel Goodman]

When I look at this stalemate, I don't see this interim government being a government that's going to do a lot. That's not its purpose. Because actually if it tries to do a lot, it's going to backfire because it doesn't have the numbers to do radical reform.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

But I'm mentioning these two particular issues because on these two issues there is a broadcast 80% of the country agrees.

[Daniel Goodman]

That could very well be.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

And if I were Bennett, I would focus only on those issues.

[Daniel Goodman]

And just starting to get business. And you're focusing elections because there very might well be two or three cycles and then it'll be interesting to see if there's a different group of people in power, different ministers serving, like all the issues that you and I care about, just decency, having ministers who come to work for the sake of serving the people, come to work without all this corruption.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

We have ministers who spend more time abroad than in the country, all of that stuff.

[Daniel Goodman]

And it'll be an interesting. So there's a stalemate, but that stalemate doesn't necessarily mean just continued elections. There'll be a shift in government in the midst of that. So these are the currents we're gonna see as every day these currents change. What the United States is gonna decide when it comes to Iran could have a huge impact on the currents, on what Netanyahu talks about, how he's positioned in Israeli state.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

Well, I think this is really the important point here is that there are so many wild cards. And what we know is that you can never freeze the. Especially not at this moment.

[Daniel Goodman]

So we're in the midst of currents, where these currents are going to take us. Stay tuned, my friends. Yossi, it was a pleasure being with you.

[Yossi Klein Levi]

Truly a pleasure.

[Elana Steinhein]

What are we supposed to do and say and be during this time?

[Daniel Goodman]

Judaism has so much complexity to it and so many layers to it that.

[Producer Daniel Goodman]

No one layer stands by itself.

[Elana Steinhein]

What you have is Jews who for the very first time feel like their value system is out of sync with the broader sector. I'm your host, Elana Steinhein. Welcome to Texting irl where we wrestle with the dilemmas of Jewish life through the lens of classical and modern Torah texts. I am so fortunate that I have a friend and a colleague who I can talk to Jacob Feinspan, Diana Ginsberg, Dalia Lithwick, helping us think through these big questions.

[Daniel Goodman]

Why are you guys part of this? What calls you personally to it. What are some of the other things that you work on? What's at stake for you?

[Elana Steinhein]

I think one of the challenges is, is to figure out how much failed democracy we as Jews can tolerate.

[Daniel Goodman]

We have to find opportunities to make enemies into friends.

[Elana Steinhein]

The model is so majestic in this text. Listen now to Texting irl, a podcast from the Shalom Hartman Institute, available wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Beauty of Jewish Interpretation.

[Daniel Goodman]

Exactly.

[Producer Daniel Goodman]

For Heaven's Sake is a product of the Shalom Hartman Institute and ARC Media. It is produced by me, Daniel Goodman, with help from Miriam Jacobs, Adar Taylor Schechter and Aviva Kat Manore, and studio support from Go Live Media. Our episode was edited by Seth Stein, Natal Friedman is our executive producer and our music was composed by Yuval Samo. Past episodes can be [e-mail] where you can explore more of Arc Media's podcasts. You can watch the video versions of our episodes on our YouTube channel. Follow the YouTube link in the Show Notes. Also, to receive updates on new episodes, please follow the link to arcmedia.org and subscribe to Arc Media's weekly newsletter. For more ideas from the Shalom Hartman Institute, visit our [e-mail].