Iran and My Summer Vacation

Summary

For Heaven’s Sake – “Iran and My Summer Vacation”

Date: July 22, 2026
Hosts: Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi
Podcast by: Shalom Hartman Institute, Ark Media

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi grapple with the intertwining of looming geopolitical anxieties—most notably, the shadow of Iran—and the very real, very mundane desire of Israelis to have a summer vacation. Against the backdrop of Israel’s tense strategic position, especially regarding Iran’s actions and shifting alliances, the hosts reflect on how public discourse has shifted dramatically from strategic military analysis to personal, day-to-day concerns. This is a candid, often humorous but also sobering exploration of Israeli societal resilience and adaptation in the face of unstoppable regional uncertainty.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. From Strategic to Personal: Summer Vacations Under Threat

Timestamps: 00:09, 01:18, 04:52

• Opening Framing: The conversation starts by highlighting how discussions about Iran have shifted from complex strategic analysis to highly personal concerns like, “How is this going to impact my summer vacation?” (00:09, 04:52).
• Importance of Travel: For Israelis, summer travel is not just leisure—it’s a deeply emotional and psychological need to escape the country’s perpetual “pressure cooker” reality, to breathe and build resources to come back.
  • “We have one airport, and when there's war, there's only one airline that flies. One airport, one airline. That's the portal in and out.” — Yossi [05:11]
  • “We don't just travel to get away. There's a desperation … Israelis don't travel the way other people travel. They travel to breathe….” — Yossi [05:24]
• Practical Issues: Donniel shares his own planning woes—delayed bookings, canceled flights, and how even Airbnb’s flexible cancellation policies can’t outmaneuver the unpredictability of geopolitics. [03:13-04:26]

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2. Collective Frustration and Resilience

Timestamps: 07:53, 08:46, 10:45

• Strategic Drift: Discussion of an “emotional survival” strategy, where the sense of strategic impotence and frustration with the US and global powers has led many Israelis to simply “close the door on that season” and focus on their own well-being.
  • “We felt frustrated when our future wasn’t in our hands… we just sort of want to close the door on that season.” — Donniel [08:46]
  • “We’re at a stage where we’re trying to adjust to reality that we don’t have control over.” — Donniel [11:04]
• Shift in Conversation: Israelis have stopped publicly dissecting strategy and are now “quietly adjusting.” There’s a sense of surrendering to the chaotic reality and just trying to get through, one summer at a time.

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3. Iran’s Position & Israel’s Lack of Strategy

Timestamps: 09:52, 12:00, 16:24, 18:59

• Lost Strategic Clarity: Donniel laments unworkable or fantastical strategic plans involving regime change in Iran, or fanciful alliances:
  • “If your plan involves the Kurds… there’s some challenge. But it turns out it didn't just involve the Kurds…” — Donniel [10:37]
• Iranian Resilience: The hosts note Iran’s unexpected comeback—leading military standoffs, bombing key infrastructure in the Middle East, and directly challenging US power.
  • “There was a sense that we were on the verge of bringing about a collapse… And they've come back, They've come back to life and they are going without the slightest hesitation, toe to toe [with the US].” — Donniel [13:21]
• Israel’s Limited Options: A key theme is the sense that Israel no longer has a clear strategy:
  • “The problem is we don't have a strategy anymore.” — Donniel [14:14]
  • “Even if we put boots on the ground, bomb away Iran…” — Donniel [20:46]
• Incrementalism and Drift: Yossi adds that this lack of clear purpose is matched by a broader drift on all fronts, from Gaza to Lebanon, and that Israel is mostly waiting, hoping not to be drawn further into regional conflagrations.
  • “There is no long term plan, Daniel. There are long term situations. There's long situations stumbling into long term situations.” — Yossi [21:24]

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4. Economic vs. Military Solutions

Timestamps: 14:15, 16:30, 19:00, 21:05

• Yossi’s Cautious Optimism: Yossi argues that in the long-term, maintaining pressure through sanctions weakens Iran’s regime more reliably than outright confrontation.
  • “Every day that passes without a deal, with the sanctions in place, weakens the regime a little bit more. And there needs to be a long perspective here. Deep breath.” — Yossi [15:01]
  • “The positive is that the regime's economy is weakening.” — Yossi [16:30]
• Donniel Pushes Back: Donniel remains skeptical, seeing little comfort in “weakening the regime’s economy” given the immense risk and lack of immediate strategic benefit.
  • “If that's our hope, I really am going on vacation. I need a vacation.” — Donniel [16:51]
• No Military Solution: Both ultimately agree there is no military answer that wouldn’t be catastrophic or futile at this juncture.

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5. Small Steps of Hope & the Value of Critique

Timestamps: 22:20, 23:38

• Diplomatic Progress: Donniel expresses muted optimism that any incremental diplomatic moves, even if externally imposed (such as Israel's small withdrawals in Lebanon), are worth celebrating.
  • “But the fact that we're being pushed means that Israel at least is putting on the map that maybe we have to explore some diplomatic options besides bombing another day.” — Donniel [24:22]
• Critique as Hope: For Donniel, criticism is not defeatist but a necessary precursor for renewal and vision.
  • “Criticism is actually an act of hope for me because at least it's laying a foundation. But at the same time, when something good happens, I really want to embrace it.” — Donniel [23:56]
• Small Successes: Mention of ongoing efforts to curb radicalism among the hilltop youth as another sliver of good news. [25:14]

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6. Emotional Tones: Waiting, Drifting, and the Quest for Normalcy

Timestamps: 26:15, 26:57, 28:18

• The In-Between State: The dominant mood is one of uncertain waiting; both hosts describe this summer as a “dreamlike interlude,” less a season of renewal and more one of necessary pause.
  • “It's a waiting period. We're in one of those waiting periods and yet we're waiting. But the region isn't waiting. The region is burning all around us.” — Yossi [26:55]
• Personal Desires vs. Geopolitics: The deeply personal longing for “just a vacation” comes up repeatedly amidst these existential debates—mirroring the reality that private life and national destiny cannot be separated in Israel.
• Final Reflection: Donniel ponders whether this summer is one of awakening or simply more waiting, closing with a wish that his own summer vacation—and those of all Israelis—might still be rescued by an unlikely ceasefire.
  • “This is the summer, is it a summer of awakening, Not a summer of waiting. A summer of awakening to what's possible or not possible.” — Donniel [27:51]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Israeli Summer Travel

• “We are startup nation with one airport and one airline that's it. And with that, build a country.” — Donniel [05:11]
• “Israelis are thrilled to leave and reasonably happy to come back. And so everybody's happy. Whichever direction you're going in, you're happy. Really. I think Ben Gurion is the happiest place in Israel.” — Yossi [05:46]
• “Criticism is actually an act of hope for me because at least it's laying a foundation. But at the same time, when something good happens, I really want to embrace it.” — Donniel [23:56]

On the State of the Region

• “We're at a stage where we're trying to adjust to reality that we don't have control over.” — Donniel [11:04]
• “There is no long term plan, Daniel. There are long term situations. There's long situations stumbling into long term situations.” — Yossi [21:24]
• “It's a waiting period…But the region isn't waiting. The region is burning all around us.” — Yossi [26:56]

Sardonic Humor & Self-Awareness

• “If that's our hope, I really am going on vacation. I need a vacation.” — Donniel [16:51]
• “It's too bad for your sake I wish you were flying tomorrow.” — Yossi [29:37]

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Key Timestamps for Reference

• 00:09: Shift from strategic analysis to personal worries about vacation
• 03:13: Donniel’s summer vacation planning saga
• 04:52: The psychological meaning of vacation for Israelis
• 08:46: Collective frustration with strategic impotence
• 13:21: Iran’s resurgence and regional assertiveness
• 14:14: Acknowledgment of lacking a national strategy
• 16:30: Economic pressure as the only viable path, according to Yossi
• 23:56: Critique as a form of constructive hope
• 25:14: Hope from incremental internal improvements (curbing youth radicalism)
• 26:55: The feeling of living in a waiting period as the region burns

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Tone and Language

The episode maintains a conversational, candid, and somewhat self-deprecating tone. Donniel often uses humor to highlight absurdities in the Israeli situation, while Yossi focuses on providing long-term perspectives. The hosts embrace difference and honest disagreement—a hallmark of “machloket l’shem shemayim”—and combine personal narrative with sober analysis.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode encapsulates the uneasy Israeli psyche in summer 2026: balancing the ordinary longing for rest and routine against the extraordinary tensions of regional upheaval. The sense of drift, frustration, and adaptation is palpable. There’s little illusion of control over great strategic outcomes—what remains is the resilience to seize small moments of hope and normalcy, and the wisdom to admit limits, criticize, and seek meaning even in the act of waiting.

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Transcript

[A]

You are listening to an art media podcast.

[B]

What I'm picking up is that we're no longer having these deep strategic analyses when we talk about Iran. We've shifted from the collective, the strategic, to the entirely personal. How's this going to impact on my summer vacation?

[A]

It sounds strange, doesn't it?

[B]

It does. And yet when you realize what a vacation means for Israel, you can really begin to understand that there is a strategic component to our ability to leave and come back.

[A]

Hi, friends. This is Daniil Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi from the Sholem Hartman Institute. And this is our podcast, for heaven's Sake, in collaboration with ARC Media. Today is Tuesday, July 21, and our theme is Iran and My Summer Vacation. I feel like, you'll see, I'm giving a report like I came back when I was in grade three. Tell us about everybody. Your summer homework was to write a report on my summer vacation.

[B]

This is a summer vacation that hasn't happened.

[A]

That hasn't happened yet. But it's like the report on maybe it's not going to happen. And all of us like, what are Israelis talking about now? It is a strange time. But in the midst of all of this, Israelis are exiting. They've exited. They're on the verge of exiting. July, and in particular August is the travel season. We'll talk about it. But what does travel really mean for Israelis is a big deal. But sitting on top of us right now is, are we going to have this season? We just a report today, if seven more refueling tankers go into Ben Gurion Airport from America, if Israel has to give seven spaces for refueling tankers, 5,000 tickets a day need to be canceled because we have to stop flights. 10 days, 50,000. 20 days, 100,000 people. 10, 15% of all those people who are going to travel, how many people you think are there in this country not to speak about planes that can't come back? Just seven. Now if you do, 14. So it was a huge issue in Israel where we're going to put the fuel tankers. And so now they're spread at all the air force bases, but they ran out of space. So now it's just. It's that we're such a small country. It's such a small little country and we just want to go on vacation. We want a vacation from the elections. We want a vacation. Just we want a vacation. And since it's my vacation, it's my summer vacation. I delayed booking a home. I take my family away every year. My tribe would go to some Villa somewhere. And I delayed and delayed and delayed and then Airbnb, it was comfortable because you get something with extensive where you can cancel very close to the date. So I had my exit strategy and I come to book. We're going to Crete. No more tickets on Elal to Crete.

[B]

But you did do an Airbnb.

[A]

I did the Airbnb and I made the first payment, but now I can't get all my money back. And the question is, do I make the second payment? I have another week or so. I think next week I have to make the second payment, and then you don't get anything back. But the bigger problem was my airline. I want to fly Allow, but there was no Allow. I should have really booked it earlier, but, like, I didn't know what was going to be. There was the bombing, the war, and then there was the agreement. Okay, so we go and I start booking with Aegean Airlines. The travel agent says they don't cancel so quickly. They're not like Air France.

[B]

In other words, if there's a war, there's a chance that they'll still fight.

[A]

I'm sitting here like, I don't know. I'm an Aegean. So if I wasn't allowed, you know, Elal flies. Flies in the middle of missiles. In the middle of missiles. Like your vacation is safe.

[B]

We were on a plane together from London.

[A]

We did episodes over the vacation, flying into a missile. Do you remember that trip we did together? So, like, we.

[B]

So here.

[A]

Like my summer vacation. Israelis are all wondering. So I quickly called the agent. I said, could I fly somewhere else on Elal and then from there connect to Crete because I'll get anywhere. I said, no, there's nothing.

[B]

Unbelievable.

[A]

You cannot. There isn't a single ticket available, period. So I'm stuck with Aegean. I'm sorry, I don't mean to do a commercial for Aegean, and I don't want. But I'm stuck now. I have. Like 12 of us are flying Aegean Airlines, and I don't know. So we're sitting here, we're waiting. We're figuring it out like it's our summer, it's our reality. Yossi, what do you take with this? And we'll play with this notion.

[B]

So many thoughts about this situation and what it says about our larger reality. You know, you talked about us being a small country. We have one airport, and when there's war, there's only one airline that flies. One airport, one airline. That's the portal in and out.

[A]

We are startup nation with one airport and one airline that's it. And with that, build a country.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Build a country.

[B]

That's right. And so we live in a pressure cooker. That's the Israeli reality. And for the most part, Israelis have learned how to flow in the pressure cooker. But when the summer comes, that's when you feel all of the frustration coming out. We don't just travel to get away. There's a desperation. You know, you were talking about an exit. It's a mass flight. Shortly after I moved to Israel in the early 80s, there was a headline in one of the Hebrew papers, and the headline was one word in English, and the word was out. And it said, out, out, out, out 10 times. That was the headline. And that was my education. Looking at that headline, I said, ah, I see, I see. Israelis don't travel the way other people travel. They travel to breathe. They travel to be able to develop the resources to come back and then go into the pressure cooker again. And we need it. It's a survival mechanism. When I'm at the airport, I think that there is no happier place in the world than Ben Gurion. Israelis are thrilled to leave and reasonably happy to come back. And so everybody's happy. Whichever direction you're going in, you're happy. Really. I think Ben Gurion is the happiest place in Israel. And now, with the possibility of another round of fighting with Iran interfering with this emotional survival strategy, you feel the pressure building. What I feel, Daniil, and I would like to know what you're hearing in your conversations with neighbors, friends. What I'm picking up is that we're no longer having these deep strategic analyses when we talk about Iran. We've shifted from the collective, the strategic, to the entirely personal. How's this going to impact on my summer vacation?

[A]

And it sounds strange, doesn't it?

[B]

It does. And yet when you're in it, you just assume this is. Yeah, well, of course, of course. How is this going to impact on my vacation? And when you realize what a vacation means for Israelis, you can really begin to understand that there is a strategic component to our ability to leave and come back.

[A]

I want to speak a little bit about this shift from the strategic to the personal and why it's happening. And as you and I have been talking and accompanying this war as citizens, not as military analysts, you a little bit have a theory about what's happening in Iran or what should happen or what should happen. I've never had a theory. I've had hopes, I've had dreams, but I never really Had a theory. So there was times when we felt profoundly frustrated. We felt frustrated when our future wasn't in our hands. We felt frustrated when we were forced to stop or bring planes back. We were frustrated when the United States signed the MOU with Iran. We were frustrated as we watched what maybe was a fantasy from the beginning, but victory eluding us when we were so close.

[B]

And also the fact that we were taken for granted. We felt a little bit used.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, when they needed us, we were there. And then they just threw us away without consulting.

[A]

That was very much a Vance feeling. Like, you're. You don't even. We're not even telling you what's in the deal. So there were moments where the power imbalance between us and the United States, or what Vance says. Like, as he said, you're 9 million people without any natural resources. Like, I don't need a. You're just not that important. There was a lot of that. And I think we've sort of hunkered down, and that's what we want to travel. So we just sort of want to close the door on that season. Like, just to sort of forget we

[B]

could take a hint. We get it. We're not important anymore.

[A]

Like, when we're traveling, we want to maybe realign ourselves with our own narratives. But I think there's another part that I'm sensing now. And as you watch this, it seems to be a bombing campaign to get back into the Memorandum of Understanding. Maybe by the time this comes out, maybe some other plan will come forth.

[B]

But it doesn't seem that it's so bizarre, daniil. Because the MoU is not a peace plan. It's an agreement to negotiate.

[A]

An agreement for 60 days, which is now already.

[B]

And so where we're at is we are so far from any coherent strategy.

[A]

We're so far. And even, like, what does the term mean? And the Straits of Hormuz being closed and all of that. We're watching it. I'm wondering whether another shift and this is part of what I'm seeing. I'm seeing it amongst people. I'm seeing it throughout the media discourse that I think Israelis have sort of understood that we lost our moment. We had a moment. We had these strange plans like this are also coming out of regime change, you know. And, you know, I've always said if your plan involves the Kurds, that's there's some challenge. But it turns out it didn't just involve the Kurds.

[B]

It was one of the most bizarre things I've ever Heard it involved bringing in Ahmadine, Ahmadinejad, Holocaust, Mr.

[A]

Holocaust, Mr. Sweetie Pie, who is going to now be our friends. Somehow it was. But we looked at it, you even

[B]

see it was so bizarre that I thought this must be a disinformation attempt to really compromise.

[A]

You know, there's an article like, Israel has to realize that, like, regime change might be a little more difficult. Like you're beginning to see. You wonder whether this plan was really fully thought through or whether it was fantastical from the beginning. But I'm wondering, what are we going to do? So, like right now we have pickaxes come back again and we've spoken about pickaxe. And now the Israeli intelligence has discovered that. I forget if it were thousands or tens of thousands of centrifuges have been moved already last fall into pickaxe. And what is pickaxe? Is pickaxe a storage facility? Is it now going to be a nuclear facility to enrich uranium? What is it going to be but pickaxe, and we know is now six. We're all now experts with pickaxe. It's 600. We know it's 600 meters down and it has tunnels and huge things and all the king's horses and all the king's men aren't going to be able to blow up pickaxe, you know, whatever it is. So we're watching it and I think we're at a stage where we're trying to adjust to reality that we don't have control over. And we're seeing this remarkable resilience. I don't know if you feel it too, like you're watching the Iranians go toe for toe with the Americans. And that's not what happened at the first stages, neither when we bombed them back. I forget the names. I apologize for every one of our wars and operations. But when we bombed them in the 12 Day War last June or when we bombed them, it felt like, I can't even tell you the month, when it was this last year, there was a sense that we were on the verge of bringing about a collapse. The economy was collapsing. Their leadership, the first generation, second generation, third generation, everything was collapsing. And they've come back, They've come back to life and they are going without the slightest hesitation, toe to toe. America, Yubot. We're going to bomb double. They're bombing the uae, Saudi Arabia, bombing American bases. Huge casualties aren't even being discussed. Barracks in Jordan, desalinization plants. You're touching one of our infrastructure. We're going to Hit two of yours and there's no fear. There was a sense that there was a balance, that the superpower, together with Israel, it was like, wow. We were wowed by our bombing campaign. And now we're just bombing for another day to see are we going to come back. And now the new notion is we're going to have a 10 day ceasefire to reinstitute. Talking about a ceasefire, to talk about a fight. And so I think that part of what Israelis is like, maybe we're realizing we took it was too much. We can't achieve it. The problem is we don't have a strategy anymore. There is no strategy. And so maybe we're just quietly adjusting. And that's the job of the summer. We're going to go on our vacation and we're going to come back to our world, to elections and to a reality which not only did we not solve, but has gotten far more dangerous because Iran is, again, the superpower in this area.

[B]

I have a more positive reading of the war and our prospects and the future collapse of the regime. First of all, I think you're right that Iran feels they're at the top of their game now. I wouldn't call it resilience as much as a reading of the American map and of Trump in particular. I think Iran initially was hesitant because they weren't sure how far he would go. And when he started to pull back and brought in Vance, they began signaling almost a kind of a desperate need for an agreement. That was when he. You don't signal a bully that you're desperate for a deal. Look, I think that they're reading the map accurately. Trump has very little support for this war. As we've said before on this podcast, he's done an abysmal job in, in explaining the war to the American people. He basically hasn't made the case for the war. Midterms are coming up. The clock is ticking for him. And so the Iranians now feel justifiably that they have the upper hand and Trump is flailing and I don't think he quite knows what to do. And so they're having a moment. But every day that passes without a deal, with the sanctions in place, weakens the regime a little bit more. And there needs to be a long perspective here. Deep breath. We're dealing with a regime that has had half a century to entrench and has some support among the Iranian people. Look, they had, I don't know, a million people at Khamenei's funeral, But there are 90 million people in Iran. And just as a sideline, I was so annoyed at the coverage in much of the media showing the support of the Iranian people for the regime. A million people, 89 million people didn't show up.

[A]

Yossi, I don't want to interrupt you, but I'm just waiting for the positive. Take that. You have what's positive?

[B]

The positive is that the regime's economy is weakening.

[A]

You're still. Can I just get this? Really? This is the good news? We're still at. We're weakening their economy. Let's. I'm not saying that they're strong, but like, after everything, they're still, like, you think that's a factor right now? Okay, let's. This is our hope.

[B]

Look, let's take it a step back

[A]

because by the way, if that's our hope, I really am going on vacation. I need a vacation.

[B]

So look.

[A]

Okay, go. Yes, please. I apologize.

[B]

No, no, there's no reason to apologize for going on vacation from the situation. But look, Daniil, three years ago, before the war, when we used to speculate about what would happen if we attacked Iran's nuclear facilities, if the Israeli Air Force went to bomb Iran, the scenarios were close to apocalyptic. There'd be mass devastation of Israel. Who knows how many pilots we would lose. We have mastery over the skies of Iran. We can hit them with impunity if they dare to strike us. And it's, I think it's very telling that they haven't hit us in this latest round. They're hitting everybody else, but they're not hitting us. I think that's significant. And we've managed to restore something of our deterrence that we lost on October 7. The regime is, I think, more afraid of us than they are at this point of Trump. And what I'm hoping is if they bomb us, if they hit us again, that we take out their oil installations. That's where I'm at.

[A]

This is your optimism. Can I just. I could open up a footnote for everybody. Two days ago was the 44th year Yurzeit, in memory of my brother in law, the pilot who was shot down. And we go to the military cemetery on the day that he was shot down. Dalit Baav, the fourth day of av. I don't know what the English. I think it was 26th of July. But every year his squadron sends a representative from the squadron to come to the memorial. And this year for the first time, a female pilot came because you always get these like this out of central casting pilots. And this female Pilot and she's Iranian.

[B]

Oh, how interesting. She was Iranian. How interesting.

[A]

I don't want, I hope I'm not reviewing. I'm not going to say anymore. I'm not saying. And she was talking about flying over Iran and she's, oh, wow. It was quite remarkable. Wow. But you'll see. Far be it from me to make you feel a little less positive and with your narrative, you don't have to take a summer vacation because you're already vacant. But it doesn't feel to me to be that comforting. Like when we're talking and I can almost feel like our Minister of Defense, like we have some deterrence and so what are we going to do? We're going to bomb some more. What? And if we bomb their oil refiners, why aren't they doing it? Because they know all the Gulf states, they're going to take it out. It seems clear. And I've read that missile defense systems have not been replenished. The casualties now in Jordan there speak about 100American wounded besides the dead. The defenses aren't working. They have enough missiles. Maybe their economy's slowing down, but we don't have a game. And you know, I don't want to push this too, because it's going to go beyond my strategic knowledge. But when I do read about the strategic plan, Allah, Ahmadinejad and others, I'm not so certain how much strategic thinking there is right here. Yossi, I have to tell you, you know this story. I think your narrative. And it's possible, I can't say it's not possible, but it's not as bad as it used to be. Like whenever someone compares to something that what it used to be was worse. But like, so relatively it's a little better, but it's still straws. And I think that's the reality. There isn't a military solution. Even if we put boots on the ground, bomb away Iran.

[B]

No, no, I agree.

[A]

Could extract.

[B]

No, no, Daniil, I agree with you. But I do think there's an economic solution and that's, for me, the worst case scenario is a deal, a deal that releases tens or hundreds of billions of dollars to the regime. That's the worst case scenario.

[A]

I understand.

[B]

That's, that's their oxygen anyway.

[A]

It's, it's.

[B]

And so, and so the question is in whose interest is the status quo? And I think in the long term, it's in our interest.

[A]

The question is whether you have a long term and whether President Trump creates a long term plan.

[B]

No, there is no long term plan, Daniel, There are long term situations. There's long situations stumbling into long term situations.

[A]

Fair enough, fair enough. You know, and it's interesting, I haven't seen one conversation in any Israeli media talking about Iran in a positive, like, hold on, don't worry.

[B]

So here's the first.

[A]

So here's my first. So thank you. But after literally thousands of hours over the last couple of months watching and listening and talking, like, I think from the sense of the Israeli public, we're entering into another place, but a place which is like in the summer, like, where you don't know what to do.

[B]

I think you're right. You don't know what to do. It's the mood here, you know, it's

[A]

like six days you shall work and on the seventh day is the Sabbath to your Lord. You know, like we're just.

[B]

There's a sense of drift. And look, the sense of drift on all fronts. Gaza is stuck.

[A]

One place, not stuck. What do you think about. What do you think about this new move? Actually one that Israel tried to hide wasn't reported at first, was reported that was going to happen. Americans reported it and then Israel started to report it. But our Minister of Defense and our government doesn't want to talk about it. For the first time, three areas are being passed over. Israel is retreating. We don't talk about it like we think we're going to do it and nobody's going to know. It's like we're going to. And we're handing them over to the Lebanese.

[B]

You feel optimistic?

[A]

Very.

[B]

See here, you and I are now going to switch because I feel zero optimism about this for a very simple reason. We have a Lebanese government that is too weak to take on Hezbollah. And if you're not taking on Hezbollah, there are limits to how far we're going to withdraw. So, yes, we have symbolically withdrawn from three villages. And it's very telling that the government tried to hide it because of election season. And the government is trying to project to the Israeli public a sense of determination. And we're the only ones you can trust to really stand up to our enemies. But I think it's a sterile exercise.

[A]

Do you know what makes me optimistic? What you should have done, Yossi, is you said, Daniel, why are you optimistic?

[B]

Okay. All right. Now I'm curious.

[A]

See, first of all, you and I, more you than I, but I've caught on where I think it's worthy. Criticism is necessary not in order to depress people, but because unless we criticize and see what's happening. We can't start building or have a vision of what we need to correct.

[B]

Criticize ourselves, Criticize ourselves.

[A]

And so I get people depressed sometimes and sometimes I depress myself too. But criticism is actually an act of hope for me because at least it's laying a foundation. But at the same time, when something good happens, I really want to embrace it. And part of my criticism of the government is that it's not willing to do anything. Total inaction. And the fact that whether we wanted to, whether we're doing it completely or

[B]

we're being pushed, of course we're being pushed.

[A]

Of course we're being pushed. But I don't care. See, in our tradition, we don't look for purity of motive. In the Jewish tradition, we want to know what's your actions like, what do you do? And I don't care if your motives are pure. At the end of the day is good coming from it. We're being pushed. But the fact that we're being pushed means that Israel at least is putting on the map that maybe we have to explore some diplomatic options besides bombing another day. Because like when you say if we don't take Hezbollah on, we're not taking Hezbollah on because there's nothing for us to do, that's the frustration we've had. But it's not just that. There's this. I've also heard reports there was a fascinating article in the center right anti Netanya Yahoo newspaper Yisrael, how the Israel security forces are making very quietly under Zini, who's being attacked by the left,

[B]

the head of the Shin Shabak, how

[A]

we're actually starting to make serious inroads in curbing hilltop youth.

[B]

So like now that cheered me.

[A]

You know, I'll take anything positive and I want to give them credit. You're pushed, you're mushed. I don't care if this works in three villages. Well, it'd be nine. Because again, just like with Iran, I think part of the summer for me, what if the summer means is like a time for us? It's not Yom Kippur, but it's a time to pause. Not necessarily to reflect and to repent, but it is a. The travel is a pause moment. You know, August shut down, you know, but it's true the whole world shut down for the Mundial. But now we're pausing and looking at what other options do we have and what's there. And I think that maybe where we can't do something, it's really important to know we can't do something and where we can do a little bit. I'll take a little bit, Take it step by step by step. Yossi, Final thoughts and words.

[B]

Look, it's a very strange time for me as someone who was waiting for years to confront Iran.

[A]

It must have been impossible.

[B]

We did it and now where are we?

[A]

So it's interesting. Where are you?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you're at long term economic sanctions.

[B]

That's right, yes, yes. Maintaining the status quo and avoiding a deal at all costs. Now that's not a very satisfying position and I hear you, but it's just a very strange time where nothing is clear and it's a waiting period. We're in one of those waiting periods and yet we're waiting. But the region isn't waiting. The region is burning all around us.

[A]

Burning all around us. Saudi Arabia. Now the Red Sea ports of Saudi Arabia are shut down by the Houthis.

[B]

No, no. It's such a fateful moment. And here we are arguing about Netanyahu's latest offensive election clips. That's what's preoccupying us. And there's also this feeling that this is a dreamlike interlude which is going to end one of these days. We're going to be dragged back in.

[A]

Now, does this upset you when I say I know it's very self centered because it really relates to my vacation. I was actually hoping that they're going to sign a 10 day ceasefire to negotiate the ceasefire.

[B]

Oh, totally. If I were going on vacation now, I would like for the same thing.

[A]

And I'm really happy, you know, we had hundreds and hundreds of people here at the Institute. Tomorrow's the last day, everybody's getting home. We ate.

[B]

Extraordinary.

[A]

It was extraordinary. They ran. But when I hear you say, you know, we have to enter into a long term strategy with Iran and I compare, you're right. Like, what have we learned? This is the summer, is it a summer of awakening, Not a summer of waiting. A summer of awakening to what's possible or not possible. And when you're a little positive about waiting and the most best you got is let's just not sign a deal.

[B]

You know, let's not sign a deal and let's try not to get drawn into the conflict. Because at this stage of the war, it's not about our issue, it's about the Straits of Hormuz and that was never one of our strategic goals. The Straits of Hormuz is the world's problem. We have our own problems. The nuclear issue, ballistic missiles. That's what we I wonder how you

[A]

psychologically are going to deal with what I feel where I am right now. It's one thing to say I can't destroy Hezbollah, but what happens when Iran remains the superpower that we can destroy? How you adjust to that?

[B]

Yossi, I don't think that we can live with Iran, this regime in the long term. I don't believe we can find a new status quo in which the regime remains in place and I don't believe it's going to happen. So that gives me, I guess, the strength to just take a deep breath and look at this strange interlude that we're in and hope that a million plus Israelis get on the plane and wishing you a great vacation.

[A]

I'm not going yet. We're still going to be here soon.

[B]

Oh, we have one more.

[A]

No, we have two more I think. Couple more to go.

[B]

It's too bad for your sake I wish you were flying tomorrow.

[A]

I know, but I. I want them to sign the 10 day deal so that maybe I could go and then I'll come back and to my teacher, I'll give my teacher the report on my summer vacation. Yossi, it's a pleasure being with you.

[B]

Great to be with you.

[A]

Here are some other things that are happening at the Shlom Hartman Institute. Hartman has an exciting new offering for educators working with young people. It's called Siach, which means conversation in Hebrew. Siyakh is a curriculum with flexible discussion guides that use curated texts, framing questions and facilit support to spark meaningful conversations about the big questions facing Jewish life today. It's helping learners connect timeless Jewish ideas to contemporary realities. To learn more about siach, go to shalomhartman.org Siach,

[B]

for heaven's sake, is a product of the Shalom Hartman Institute and ARC Media. It is produced by me, Daniel Goodman, with help from Miriam Jacobs, Adar Taylor Schechter and Aviva Katmanaur and studio support from Go Live Media. Our episode was edited by Seth Stein. Natal Friedman is our executive producer and our music was composed by Yuval Samo. Past episodes can be [e-mail] where you can explore more of Arc Media's podcasts. You can watch the video versions of our episodes on our YouTube channel. Follow the YouTube link in the show Notes. Also, to receive updates on new episodes, please follow the link to arcmedia.org and subscribe to Arc Media's weekly newsletter. For more ideas from the Shalom Hartman Institute, visit our [e-mail].