Israel at War – The Clocks Are Ticking

Summary

For Heaven's Sake: "Israel at War – The Clocks Are Ticking"

Host/Authors: Shalom Hartman Institute
Presenters: Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi
Release Date: June 12, 2025
Episode Theme: The Clocks Are Ticking
Podcast Description: For Heaven’s Sake explores moral and ethical dimensions of issues affecting Israel, world Jewry, and Zionism through spirited debates and discussions.

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Introduction: The Ominous Countdown

The episode opens with Donniel Hartman setting a grave tone for the discussion. He introduces the theme "The Clocks Are Ticking," emphasizing the urgency surrounding Israel's current state, particularly amid war and political turmoil.

Donniel Hartman [00:00]: “The clocks are ticking, and we're trying to give a window into what's happening in Israel today.”

He outlines the pressing nature of multiple crises converging, suggesting that Israel is not merely in a transition but facing critical decision points that could reshape its future.

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Netanyahu's Leadership Strategy Under Scrutiny

Donniel critiques Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's leadership style, highlighting his tendency to delay decisions, avoid deadlines, and shift accountability onto coalition partners to mitigate unpopularity.

Donniel Hartman [00:50]: “His whole methodology is to avoid deadlines, is to deny them, is to not make decisions until the absolute last second.”

Yossi Klein Halevi adds that Netanyahu's strategy of balancing a diverse coalition is faltering, leading to increased polarization within Israeli politics.

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The Four Imminent Crises: "Clocks" Ticking

The hosts identify four primary "clocks" representing critical issues currently assaulting Israel:

1. Parliamentary Dissolution and Elections

   • A vote is imminent on disbanding Parliament to call for new elections. Success would compel the government to navigate stringent legislative challenges or risk a six-month pause before another attempt.

   Donniel Hartman [03:00]: “If the vote passes, there's a clock ticking. What's going to happen? Is the government going to survive?”

2. Ultra Orthodox Society's Decisive Moment

   • The conscription of Haredim into the Israeli army is a unifying yet divisive issue. The ultra-Orthodox community faces a dilemma between preserving their theological principles and contributing to national defense.

   Donniel Hartman [04:00]: “Is the study of Torah on the table? The clock's ticking.”

3. Relationship with World Jewry

   • The ongoing war in Gaza strains Israel's relationship with Diaspora Jewry. Yossi notes a significant dissonance between Israeli public opinion and that of global Jewish communities, exacerbated by internal anti-Reform sentiments.

   Yossi Klein Halevi [19:21]: “Elements within this government almost make it a point of pride to alienate our last supporters, essentially Diaspora Jewry.”

4. Global Opinion and International Relations

   • Israel faces increasing condemnation and sanctions from multiple countries. The international community's stance complicates diplomatic relations and pressures Israel's strategic decisions.

   Donniel Hartman [21:45]: “Something is going to be happening over the next couple of days… This is the government Haredi society, two huge clocks that are going to reshape all of our conversation.”

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Internal Political Struggles and the Haredi Community

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the ultra-Orthodox (Haredi) community's role in Israeli politics. The hosts debate the sustainability of Netanyahu's approach to negotiating with Haredi factions, especially concerning military conscription and funding.

Yossi Klein Halevi [08:42]: “The ultra Orthodox themselves is that it has also become a red line for the rest of us.”

Donniel reflects on the historical context, noting that initial compromises with Haredim are no longer tenable as their population grows.

Donniel Hartman [09:37]: “This was when there were a few hundred Yeshiva students... Ben Gurion agreed to Exam 400 of the top Talmud students.”

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Erosion of Netanyahu's Authority and Coalition Stability

Yossi observes a notable fracturing within Netanyahu's coalition, particularly among the Religious Zionists, marking a departure from previous unwavering support.

Yossi Klein Halevi [13:46]: “This is the first time that Netanyahu couldn't pass a bill that he defined as essential to the survival of the coalition.”

Donniel underscores the internal revolt and its implications for Netanyahu's political future.

Donniel Hartman [17:01]: “This is the end of his political career... It’s the end of the Religious Zionist Party for this next round, at least.”

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The Issue of Judea and Samaria Under Bazal Smotrich

The discussion touches on the controversial policies in Judea and Samaria (West Bank) under Bazal Smotrich's leadership, highlighting the long-term ramifications for Israeli society and governance.

Yossi Klein Halevi [17:56]: “This is another clock. Could we designate one of our upcoming issues?”

Donniel emphasizes the necessity of addressing these policies despite exhaustion from other crises.

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World Opinion and Media Discourse

Yossi shares insights from his recent lecture tour in North America, revealing a shift in global Jewish communities' perceptions of Israel. The hosts lament the increasing hostility and the Israeli government's inadequate response to defending its actions internationally.

Yossi Klein Halevi [24:32]: “A few weeks ago, Netanyahu said the goal of this war is to implement the Trump Plan... It's hard to remember from one episode to the other.”

Donniel criticizes the Israeli government's retreat from moral discourse, undermining its efforts to justify actions and maintain global support.

Donniel Hartman [28:30]: “Israel has abdicated the conversation because that goes back to what you said. We've abdicated the moral discourse.”

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Conclusion: Hope Amidst the Ticking Clocks

Despite the overwhelming challenges, Yossi expresses cautious optimism. He believes that the ongoing crises may lead to a pivotal change in Israeli leadership and societal values.

Yossi Klein Halevi [31:24]: “I'm very hopeful this week. It gives me hope.”

Donniel echoes this sentiment, suggesting that the ticking clocks might culminate in a significant redefinition of Israel's future.

Donniel Hartman [32:28]: “Maybe with the clocks ticking, the good news is that maybe this government is coming to an end and that Israeli society will be put in front of a serious decision.”

The episode closes on a reflective note, acknowledging the exhaustion of ongoing crises while holding onto the possibility of transformative change.

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Notable Quotes:

• Donniel Hartman [00:50]: “His whole methodology is to avoid deadlines, is to deny them, is to not make decisions until the absolute last second.”

• Yossi Klein Halevi [08:42]: “The ultra Orthodox themselves is that it has also become a red line for the rest of us.”

• Yossi Klein Halevi [19:21]: “Elements within this government almost make it a point of pride to alienate our last supporters, essentially Diaspora Jewry.”

• Yossi Klein Halevi [31:24]: “I'm very hopeful this week. It gives me hope.”

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This episode of For Heaven's Sake delves deep into the multifaceted crises confronting Israel, from internal political fragmentation and societal divides to strained international relations. Through insightful dialogue and poignant reflections, Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi shed light on the pressing issues that could determine the nation's trajectory in these tumultuous times.

Transcript

[Daniil Hartman]

Hi, friends. This is Daniil Hartman and Yossi Kleine Levi from the Sholem Hartman Institute. And this is our podcast, For Heaven's Sake, Israel at War, Day614. Our theme today is entitled the Clocks Are Ticking. Plural in the plural. And I know it sounds ominous. The clocks are ticking, and we're trying to give a window into what's happening in Israel today. You know, we debated together. Maybe we should call this a society in transition and flux. You know, we've talked about that so many times, but it's like the temperature of this transition is growing. And it's not just a transition. There's a sense that we're coming to moments of decision. The clocks are ticking. Now, Netanyahu, this is my impression, his whole methodology is to avoid deadlines, is to deny them, is to not make decisions until the absolute last second. And then when a decision is made, to have somebody else make the decision, especially since every decision will be partially unpopular. To present himself as the unwilling victim of a coalition. But he's still navigating us and saving us from the worst possible outcomes. And that's why, as we all know, Netanyahu's ideal coalition is one where there's people to the right of him and people to the left of him, and they battle things out. And then eventually decisions are made, but not by him. His decision is the statesman's decision to keep, to be above and to let the children decide whatever they decided. But he doesn't have that balanced coalition and an Israeli political environment. Today, the country's divided between just Netanyahu and just not Netanyahu. And the polls are roughly 65 seats in the Knesset, just not Netanyahu. 45 seats, just Netanyahu and 10 seats which belong to the Israeli Arab Palestinian. The two parties of the Israeli Arab Palestinian society, part of them would join a coalition if they're invited, and part would not. But there's this split. Everything now is about him. And at this time, we're at a decision inflection point, and there are four primary inflection points that are. I feel they're assaulting us. Like, it's like exhausting. It's like how many things. Like, every time you open, you look at the website, things are changing. And each one of these issues is coming forth very briefly. The four are. The first is today there's going to be a vote on whether to disband Parliament and call for a new election. If the vote passes, it still needs three additional votes by a majority of the Assembly. If it doesn't then the opposition has to wait six more months before it could put another legislation of this type. So if it fails today, the government wins six months reprieve. If it passes, there's a clock ticking. What's going to happen? Is the government going to survive? And to survive, the issue is whether the government passes a legislation that the majority of Israeli society, on the one hand, it survives as a government for now, and on the other hand, it undermines its ability to win the next election. Because this is an issue that unifies most of Israel's society. That is the drafting of the issue on the table, maybe everybody knows, is the drafting of haredim into the army.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

The ultra Orthodox.

[Daniil Hartman]

The ultra Orthodox. The second is ultra Orthodox society itself. Clock's ticking on them. What are they going to decide? Are they going to leave a government which is more favorable than any other government they ever will have, or are there certain principles that they say, as we say in Hebrew Adkan up till here, like, who am I if I don't stand, you know, Haredim, the ultra Orthodox, pride themselves as being a deeply ideological and principled community. Here it is. Is the study of Torah on the table. The clock's ticking. What are they going to decide? And within the next few hours, or could be the next coup of weeks during the upcoming negotiations, where are they going to go? Are they going to officially break with the rest of the country, or are they going to Somehow recognize that October 7th requires something from them? The clock's ticking. If you're not yet exhausted, the clock's ticking. Also on our relationship with world Jewry, the war in Gaza is draining world jewelry sees the war in a different way than we see it here in Israel. You know, 70% of Israelis in a recent poll said, I don't want to even hear about Gazans. Just don't bother me, you know? But every day, every day, something is reported again today, more people. We don't know all the details of why civilians are being killed. Does it have to do with the food distribution? Is it flawed or not flawed, or is it Hamas manipulating or who's shooting? And there's a lot of mess around it, but there's just a tiredness about it. And to really, in many ways, top what do you. You top a cake. What do you do? We have a member of the Likud Party attacking a Reform rabbi, Kilad Kariv, who's a member of the opposition, saying to him, oh, you're a reformed man, please leave the room. We Jews want to talk. And she said, oh, and by the way, when you officiated a bar Mitzvah for a dog, invite me, I'll come like this. It's like the nightmare of this anti reform discourse. But what's worse is Netanyahu didn't mention a word. The only ones who condemn it, of course, the official, you know, conscience of the country, the President, Herzog, the Jewish Agency. But like nothing, not a word. It's just like as if they don't matter. But there's a clock ticking. And finally, the last clock is world opinion. We're feeling it. Israeli press is reporting it. We see now there's five countries who are condemning Israel and starting sanctions. There's sanctions against two of our ministers. Things are happening and there's a clock ticking. Something is happening, and maybe the fifth clock, but we don't want to talk about what we don't know is a clock ticking on the end of the war. You know, it seems that in a conversation, it's been reported on a conversation between the Prime Minister of Israel and the President of the United States that President Trump said, finish the war already, it's done. You're not achieving anything. And it's important for our negotiations with Iran and Saudi Arabia. It's like, go, move on. And there's conversations that within the next few days we might be implementing stage one of some hostage deal. But we don't know. We'll have to wait for the news to evolve around that. But there's all these things happening. Yossi, I know this introduction is very long and I apologize, but it's just maybe you're exhausted. Not you, Yossi, because you love listening to me, but our audience. It's just been a long. But that's where we are. It's just the clock's ticking on so many fronts and our world is gonna change each one of these clocks. It's not a minor little issue. These are significant. Which clock do you wanna start with, Yossi?

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

You know, Daniil, listening to this litany of converging crises is so exhausting. It's so overwhelming. And you just say to yourself, he can't possibly survive this.

[Daniil Hartman]

You know, I had that same feeling. It's like, but everybody always says, oh, but you don't never count Nintendo. But I'm saying, like, really, really, really.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

And really, any one of these issues would be an existential political challenge to Netanyahu. And here he is facing all of them together. The one issue I think that is insurmountable for him because in the end he could probably continue to finesse the war and world opinion and Trump's pressure and the split with diaspora. You know, the old Netanyahu would have felt this responsibility to the future of Israel. This version of Netanya feels only, I think, only a responsibility for his continued governance. And he could limp along the one minefield that he can't navigate is the Haredi, the ultra Orthodox draft, for the reasons that you said that for the ultra Orthodox, this is what we say in Hebrew. This is the bottom line. This is the red line. It's the issue of ultimate principle for them. And what's changed in the dynamic of the relationship of Israeli society, the majority, to the ultra Orthodox, is that it has also become.

[Daniil Hartman]

A red line for.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

The rest of us. And we know the army keeps telling us this. It can't continue fighting effectively without an infusion of new recruits. And the only community that's left is the ultra Orthodox.

[Daniil Hartman]

And if I could just add to that, not just fight effectively in Gaza, because the war might come to an end, but it can't defend the borders effectively.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

And if you project 10 or 15 years from now, the ultra orthodox today are 15% of the society. In 15 years from now, there'll be 20%, 25%. Well, 30 years from now, there'll be a quarter of the population. So are we going to exempt a quarter of the population? And we know that this arrangement began in 1948 when there were a few hundred Yeshiva students.

[Daniil Hartman]

I believe it was 400.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

400, exactly.

[Daniil Hartman]

Ben Gurion agreed to Exam 400 of the top Talmud students.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

As we say in Hebrew. He was being large, he was being generous.

[Daniil Hartman]

Generous.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

And it's become impossible. And, you know, one can argue the pros and cons. And I understand the Haredi world on this. I really do. I understand that it isn't only about the study of Torah. In some ways, it's about the preservation of their way of life, which really depends on separating from the rest of society. And the army is a melting pot. And they're afraid of that melting pot for good reason. Even though the armies has set up structures that can help them maintain their lifestyle. There's no Hermetic seal. And the Haredi world worked heroically to reconstruct after the Holocaust. And this is a threat to them. The problem is, it's also a threat to me. And what you have now in Israeli society are two existential threats or two perceptions of existential threats converging. And we're the majority. We're going to win. The question is, how far will Haredi society go in breaking, as you put.

[Daniil Hartman]

It in, you know, it's not just that we're the majority. Their ability to survive is dependent on our willingness to fund our own existential threat. This is the paradox.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

That's right. So even if we come to the point where, and I think we might, and you've said this in the past, Danil, that you know, we're not going to draft you by force, but we're cutting off all the funding. Once a Haredi young man turns 18, the funding stops. Now, the basis of their separatism, and this is their fatal weakness, is that it depends on the largesse of an increasingly aggrieved and threatened majority. So it's not sustainable.

[Daniil Hartman]

I don't know if you noticed when there was a tipping point on this is when the Haredim in the coalition agreement insisted that the government pass a basic law of Torah study in which the country not only funds the ability of the ultra Orthodox community to maintain their position that they could only exist separate from the country, which is just. If you try to put your head, it just. It's not even good.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

You can go crazy.

[Daniil Hartman]

You can go crazy. But they wanted to pass a law in which the government would decide that we, the secular and religious Zionists, we, those who serve in the army, send our kids to the army with all the price that we should officially vote that the study of Torah is an existential importance to the country, just like the soldiers. Like, that was a bridge twice. You want to do it, you do it. You want to take the money, take the money. But now you want me to actually officially declare that you're as important as me. And that's what October 7th changed, because we're exhausted. Israeli society who serves are exhausted. We can't do it anymore. People, you know, every, like, my friends are all, like, we're old, you know, so we don't go anymore. But our kids go and our grandchildren go. Frank Hosius, my son just got a three month. Like now, another three months. This is his fourth three month. Like, what are you supposed to do? And here you have someone saying, no, you vote to declare my importance to you. It's. That was the tipping point. Israeli society can't tolerate it anymore.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

You said something just now in passing that I want to slow down and focus on. You said that the secular and religious Zionists are both outraged. Now, that's new. Because in the past, that coalition, that coalition is new. And I think that the fault line that's emerged within this coalition between the ultra orthodox on the one hand and the religious Zionists on the other is the most important fault line at this moment politically because that's the fundamental threat to the stability of this coalition. What has held together.

[Daniil Hartman]

In other words, it's not the opposition which is against the draft exempt. It's Netanyahu's right wing coalition partners.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

Daniil this is the first time that Netanyahu couldn't pass a bill that he defined as essential to the survival of the coalition. The revolt happened from within the, the Likud. It happened from, from the religious Zionists, his, his religious Zionist allies. He can't do it.

[Daniil Hartman]

That's why we. Right. And the religious Zionist, Edelstein, who's the chair of the Security Committee, which has to agree to the legislation. So he too, it's like he's a religious z.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

A Leakhutnik. But this is the first issue that the Leakud. It's that you see a, a revolt on principle. Who, who could have imagined a revolt on principle?

[Daniil Hartman]

Within this, within. It's like, it's remarkable and it's so interesting, you know, when, when you see how Netanyahu has been functioning. Anytime he has a contentious issue, he just decides between him and Ron Dermer, they just decide. So here it is. The government has decided. I know it's a whole other issue, but it's relevant. They've decided to begin to arm and fund a new force in Gaza. And we're funding weapons to someone whom we never heard before, someone name of.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

Abu Shabaab, you know, head of a gang. Basically.

[Daniil Hartman]

Basically he's probably some mafia, right? He's some mafia guy who is corrupt. Everything is no. And today the Minister of Finance, his.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

Chief partner, the guy who's funding the guns.

[Daniil Hartman]

Who sits on his security, on the, on the committee determine everything. Says no one spoke to me about this one. So here it is like this. No one told me we're funding Amaf Yozo. We're giving him guns that could be directed against Israel. Now in this case, I happen to think that Netanyahu's right. I'm not saying anything about Abu Shabaab, but eventually we're going to have to find some serious Palestinians who are going to take over from Gaza.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

This is not that.

[Daniil Hartman]

This is, I don't even. This is like there's a joke.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

I hate to say it. I agree with Smatrich, obviously, like here.

[Daniil Hartman]

I want to just. I don't know. I don't think this is part of the issue. I don't think any of us know enough I don't even think Netanyahu knows who. Abu Shabab. I don't think he's even thought about. He's just found somebody who maybe could help do some of the security for the distribution of the humanitarian aid so that it doesn't get in the hands of Hamas, which is, by the way, a legitimate.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

Absolutely.

[Daniil Hartman]

I think this was. I feel it should have been a long time ago, but it's absolutely legitimate.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

And the international community has ignored the fact that Hamas has been hijacking the whole thing.

[Daniil Hartman]

That whole thing is just insane. But this Abu Shabab, here it is. So now Netanyahu can't actually. It's, it's, you know, what is it? What did Brandeis say? That sunshine is the ultimate anesthetic disinfectant. Disinfect. Like here Netanyahu can. It's not between Dermer and Netanyahu anymore.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

This is actually right.

[Daniil Hartman]

They have to pass a law. And the Supreme Court is sitting and watching and his coalition partners are saying, like, I don't like half the things he's doing. He's just doing on his own. You know, this is.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

So. Do you think we're seeing the beginning of the unraveling of Netanyahu's internal authority?

[Daniil Hartman]

I think what we see is that the clocks are ticking. Literally. It's just the problem is that all of them, anybody in the coalition, their deep self interest is to remain because, you know Smotrich, Minister Smotrich, I like to show him respect in every single poll. He doesn't pass the threshold to get into the next Knesset. He's not making it. This is the end of his political career. And Ben GVIR swallows him up. And the religious Zionist community becomes a party which moves predominantly into the Likud or into Bennett's party. It's the end of the Religious Zionist Party for this next round, at least.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

Yeah. There's one more element here, which is that Netanyahu has essentially given Smotoric a free hand to stampede toward annexation in the territories.

[Daniil Hartman]

Could you do me a favor, Yossi? That's another clock. Could we designate one of our upcoming issues? Because we have to talk about this. Because things are changing in Judea and Samaria, the west bank under Bazal Smotrich. And we're not paying attention, and we're not paying attention. And it comes every. We have to talk about this because this has long term impact. But it's like, this one's exhausting enough. If we could just leave that one alone. Like, it's enough. We'll talk about it. But part of the problem is, is we're so exhausted that Smotrich knows that we're exhausted and he's getting quitting.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

We're distracted by these other clocks, we're.

[Daniil Hartman]

Exhausted by them, and we're picking our battles. But I think the issue of Judea and Samaria is something that we're going to have to talk about whether we like it or not. And I want to. So part of the challenge here is that at the end, are they going to vote for their dismantlement, knowing that the Likud can't win the next election, or unless Netanyahu somehow finds a way to spin this? So I never want to count him out. But the clock is ticking. Something is going to be happening over the next couple of days, either before our listeners here or the next couple of weeks. This is the government Haredi society, two huge clocks that are going to reshape all of our conversation. It could be that we're in a completely different arena. Pick the next clock that you want, Jos. Is it world jewelry? Is it world opinion? Are they connected? Which one do you want to talk about?

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

Having recently come back from a lecture tour in North America, primarily within the Jewish community, I'm especially sensitive to what's happening now and the gratuitous insults against our last supporters, basically, which are Diaspora Jewry and how elements within this government almost make it a point of pride to alienate.

[Daniil Hartman]

So how do you understand the silence of Netanyahu? Because he was always the one who understood that world Jewry are a strategic interest of his.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

Not for him. Not for him.

[Daniil Hartman]

They used to be. Well, they were strategic interest. Ah. Not for him. They were for Israel.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

They were for Israel.

[Daniil Hartman]

Ah, so you're making that distinction.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

Absolutely. And this is exactly the line that divides the the old Netanyahu. Yes. The Netanyahu who really not only cared about his own political interests, but also cared about the state of Israel. This version of Netanyahu, and we see it in policy, cares almost exclusively about his own survival. And as we've said before, Daniil, he's come to the point that fatal miscalculation that many leaders make, especially leaders who've been around for too long, which is a complete identification of the leader in the state. And what's good for the leader has to be good for the state.

[Daniil Hartman]

Right. And so Galit Di Stel Atbarian is one of his most effective attack dogs. She is. If there's something vulgar to be said, she will be the one who Says it.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

So there is stiff competition.

[Daniil Hartman]

There is stiff competition, but she's one of the better ones. And she's. Everything is just Netanyahu. So he unleashed her. And in this context, is it world jury or my coalition? As you said, sometimes I'm shocked, sometimes I'm surprised, not by even what's being done, but by the silence. It's not even an issue for him. Second, everything else has sort of disappeared. And all he has now are these short term tactical moves that need to be made to keep his government going. That's a crucial price.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

Whatever the price is A crucial insight, Daniil, that Netanyahu has become the master of the tactical on all fronts. All of the ticking clocks that you.

[Daniil Hartman]

Mentioned, I just don't think he's the master.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

Well, now what's happened is that his ability to expand the timeframe of the tactical has been.

[Daniil Hartman]

His tactics aren't working anymore. They're not working with anybody. But you see the price. And you and I are so committed to the loyalty of the Jewish people to each other and the loyalty of the state of Israel to world Jewry. And we spend so much of our career trying to work to ensure that world Jewry doesn't walk away from Israel and that to be a Jew is to be in a vital relationship with Israel and to see Israel as an integral part of your Jewish identity, not some overseas allocation. This is what we do day in and day out. It's our deepest commitments. And to see it. There's enough problems as it is and there's issues that I can't solve. And it's true that 6 to 10,000 miles away, when you see the war, it's different than when you see it here. And there's gonna be differences and there's ideological differences, but this, this level of disrespect, disdain, this goes, you know, who speaks this way? This is the way the ultra orthodox used to speak.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

And it's now filtered into the liquor.

[Daniil Hartman]

It's filtered and like this. And it's normative and only, you know, thank God, you know, you have president her. But he doesn't carry weight in Israel. But he's such a decent man. That's it. There's a decency Benu would never tolerate. There's a. Like, where is your decency? It's just gone.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

That leaves us, you know, when I meet with reform or conservative congregations and you see the love for the state of Israel and you realize how many insults, like how swallow.

[Daniil Hartman]

When are we gonna get to the tipping?

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

I'm so moved by that, by their love for us. See, what I see their unrequited love.

[Daniil Hartman]

When I travel, and maybe we also go to different. I see people just holding on. They're trying to hold on, and they're trying to hold on for themselves, and they're trying to hold on from their kids and their grandchildren. And just like, when's the moment when you're just gonna say, enough? And the president, the prime minister of Israel, hello, there's a clock ticking. There's something. And the assumption, you know, when Humpty Dumpty, you know, you're not always going to be able to put Humpty Dumpty back together again. Part of this, you know, this children's. What is it called? Rhyme or whatever it is, you know, trying to teach kids that, you know, all the king's horses and all the king's men. Not everything is resolvable, not everything. There's consequences. But that consequence leads us to the last ticking clock. And that is world opinion. It's a different world right now, Yossi.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

It is. It is. And I've been out there, as you know, since October 8th, defending this war passionately in media outlets in North America, in Europe, facing fair amount of hostility, but nothing compared to now. The discourse has fundamentally shifted against us. And honestly, it's getting harder to defend this war. A few weeks ago, Netanyahu said at a press conference that the goal of this war is to implement the Trump Plan. And by the Trump Plan, he meant the expulsion of Palestinians. We talked about this in the last. I think we did. It's hard to remember from one episode to the other, and I might have mentioned in that episode as well, but I think it's worth repeating. The commander of the idf, Zamir, made a point of responding, not directly, indirectly. He went to the front to meet with soldiers in Gaza, and he laid out three goals of the war. And he said the first goal pointedly is bringing the hostages back, which Netanyahu is now saying is not the first goal, it's the second. Second goal is bringing Hamas down. And the third goal is changing the political reality. On the ground in Gaza, no mention of the Trump plan. Now in Israel, the culture of the army is to submit to the will of the politicians of the government. And that's always been a foundation of Israeli democracy. This time, the army realizes that it has to signal a break with the government, but is doing so subtly, and maybe a little too subtly, because I think a lot of people missed the drama that's going on here. I guarantee you Netanyahu. I did not miss it.

[Daniil Hartman]

Netanyahu.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

So as long as the army is not following Netanyahu into the moral abyss of making expulsion the goal of this war, we're still holding on by our fingernails to the edge of the cliff. But Netanyahu has led us into one abyss after another. And this is the final abyss, the moral abyss.

[Daniil Hartman]

You know, I have never been a great advocate of public relations, as if public relations could solve Israel's problems, you know, and there's so many people who fall into the trap of either believing that we could solve the problem with better public relations, or there's nothing that we could say because they're going to hate us anyway. And I feel that this government is not even trying to see. I'm against this stage of the war. But there are serious issues that could be talked about. You can make a case and say this war would stop if Hamas would disarm itself. You can make a case that we're willing to do a hostage deal and even an end of the war, but Hamas has to agree to disarm itself. And if it doesn't agree, how could I bring a war to an end? You can make an argument or try to defend the complex reality on the ground when civilians are killed. This move to distribute humanitarian aid in a way that is not given over to Hamas is a perfectly legitimate. Not only legitimate is morally and justified under moral categories and under international law to give humanitarian aid over to Hamas so that they could steal it and thus strengthen their stranglehold on Gazan society. All of this is legitimate. In other words, you can make a case. But you know what happens every single time now? Civilians are killed or something happens. Do you know what the response of the Israeli government is? We're investigating. We don't even. Our military spokesperson is not even competing anymore. He's not even. He's not even.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

Why? Because Netanyahu fired the. The last guy, Hagari, who was so effective. This guy wasn't his person. He couldn't.

[Daniil Hartman]

This guy is also supposed to be effective, but he doesn't even show up. So here it is, and Israel says we're investig. Three days later we might come up with a result, but by then, nobody's listening. Israel has abdicated. I'm not saying that public relations alone would solve all of our problems, but we've abdicated the conversation because that goes back to what you said. We've abdicated the moral discourse. The conversation will assume that there are moral standards that apply to us, that we're willing to abide by and let's argue about them. We're even trying to undermine the chief advocate of the army who's ensuring that Israel works and abides by international law and by the rules of war. And so it's like we've given up. We've given up trying to win a moral argument. And we could. Oh, so you could say, you know what, that's why our today Israel's public relations is they're anti Semites. You know, you're anti Semites. A plague. It's it. But the clock is ticking and we have to ask like this lack of decision. And I think again, it's part of the internal conversation because right now all Netanyahu wants to talk about or work on are the tactics to enable this government to survive. This type of conversation assumes that there's a moral discourse that his government doesn't abide by. It's not for naught that different countries have now decided to sanction Ministers Ben Veer and Smotrich. Whether you agree with it or not is not our issue today. But it's not for naught. These people have said not on October 7th when you're traumatized. But now they talk the most horrific things about the expulsion of Gazans, et cetera, much worse than Netanyahu himself. That's his audience keeping that quiet. It's as if it doesn't matter anymore. And so like we're watching and Israeli newspapers are reporting more and more, more events, more Israelis who are being attacked in various places in the world. We're not going to go back into the war against the Jews last week. And it's as if we've relinquished any responsibility to try to explain what we're doing, to justify, morally. I'm not saying that everything that is happening is justified, but make, try. What is it that we're doing when we're not doing something right? Make a mistake. If you accuse us of something that we didn't do, say it quickly. Now it's just silence. And that silence this clock, the clocks are ticking and somebody's looking for tactics to stop the clocks instead of solve the problems. Because at the end of the day, clocks ticking are just a metaphor and you might want to stop the clock, but it's a metaphor for profound challenges that we're facing and that we're not meeting. You'll see. Last words. Maybe you have something uplifting.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

Well, you know, on October 8th, this government was handed an enormous gift, that is the renewed unity of Israel. And it has succeeded in squandering a gift that it didn't deserve, but we deserved. And what we're seeing now is the unraveling, maybe still in slow motion, but the inevitable unraveling of the inconsistencies that this government has tried to finesse. And so I'm very hopeful this week. I feel that we may be turning a corner and that what has been obvious to many of us in the year before October 7, which is that this government is divisive in its DNA and it's the wrong government to lead, to lead these people, that that is becoming increasingly apparent. And so that gives me hope.

[Daniil Hartman]

So maybe with the clocks ticking.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

The.

[Daniil Hartman]

Good news is that maybe this government is coming to an end and that Israeli society will be put in front of a serious decision. What type of government do we want to have and what type of society we want to live in?

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

Do we want to go back to October 6th, where we're tearing ourselves apart, or do we want to try to hold on to October 8th or not.

[Daniil Hartman]

That alone, but to a new future, a future where October 7th doesn't define us anymore either. Let's see. It's interesting. Time, exhausting time. I apologize to our listeners. It could be that these clocks that are ticking are going to shut off by the time you hear. Could be that six other clocks will be there. What's certain is that clocks are ticking. It's exhausting. This is, for heaven's sake, Israel at war. Day 614. Yossi, wonderful to be with you always.