Israel at War – The New Plan

Summary

For Heaven's Sake Podcast Summary: "Israel at War – The New Plan"

Release Date: May 7, 2025
Hosts: Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi
Episode Title: Israel at War – The New Plan

---

Introduction

In the poignant episode titled "Israel at War – The New Plan," hosts Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi delve deep into the unfolding complexities of Israel's ongoing conflict, now on its 577th day. The episode unpacks the Israeli government's newly authorized strategy in Gaza, examining its implications on national ethos, hostage situations, and the broader socio-political landscape. Through personal anecdotes and robust debate, the hosts shed light on the multifaceted challenges facing Israel today.

---

Unveiling the New Military Plan

The episode opens with Donniel Hartman introducing the latest developments in the war effort. On day 577, Israel has shifted its tactical approach in Gaza from confronting Hamas wherever possible to actively capturing and occupying territory. This transition marks a significant pivot aimed at compelling Hamas to engage more directly on the battlefield.

Notable Quote:
Donniel Hartman (00:02): “We are now starting the occupation of Gaza.”

The hosts discuss the Hebrew terminology used in the new plan—lichbosh (capture) versus kibush (occupation)—highlighting the nuanced assurances that the occupation is temporary and not intended to alter the political status quo. However, skepticism persists among the populace, with fears that this move could echo the long-standing occupation of the West Bank.

---

Netanyahu’s Pursuit of Complete Victory

A focal point of the discussion is Prime Minister Netanyahu’s explicit declaration that the primary objective of the new plan is the complete destruction of Hamas, with the safe return of hostages considered a consequential hope rather than a central aim.

Notable Quote:
Donniel Hartman (02:15): “Our goal is to confront Hamas. We'll see.”

Yossi Klein Halevi counters that this stance signifies a departure from Israel’s foundational ethos of never leaving anyone behind. The hosts express concern that this shift undermines the deeply ingrained solidarity that defines Israeli society, where every citizen’s safety is paramount.

---

The Ethical Dilemma: Hostages vs. National Goals

Drawing from personal narratives, Donniel shares the heartrending story of his brother-in-law, Arala Katz, whose watch became a symbol of Israel's unwavering commitment to its soldiers. This anecdote underscores the emotional and ethical turmoil wrought by the new military strategy, where the lives of hostages are inadvertently jeopardized in the pursuit of broader national objectives.

Notable Quote:
Donniel Hartman (08:44): “They don’t leave anything behind. It’s like you owe them everything.”

Yossi emphasizes that this ethical breach threatens the very soul of Israel, moving away from a unified front to a more fragmented and nationalistic approach that could have long-term repercussions on national identity and unity.

---

Government vs. Military: A Growing Rift

The conversation explores the emerging tension between the Israeli government and military leadership. While the government champions the eradication of Hamas, military officials prioritize the liberation of hostages, leading to conflicting agendas.

Notable Quote:
Yossi Klein Halevi (06:55): “Smotrich is willing to sacrifice the hostages to rebuild settlements.”

This discord is exacerbated by the call-up of tens of thousands of reservists, many of whom express fatigue and desperation, questioning the efficacy and purpose of the prolonged conflict.

---

Public Sentiment and the Strain on Reservists

The hosts highlight a shifting public mood, with increasing numbers of Israelis across the political spectrum expressing weariness and frustration. The relentless conscription demands are taking a toll, leading to widespread calls for an end to the conflict without a clear political roadmap.

Notable Quote:
Donniel Hartman (28:32): “I've had enough.”

Yossi adds that the backbone of Israel's defense—the reservists—is facing unprecedented strain, grappling with the moral dilemma of continuing the war that endangers their loved ones.

---

Lack of a Coherent Political Strategy

A critical analysis is offered on the government's absence of a tangible post-war plan. Without a clear vision for the aftermath, the military actions appear aimless, raising questions about the ultimate objectives and the sustainability of such an extensive military engagement.

Notable Quote:
Yossi Klein Halevi (25:37): “We're in search of some elusive something.”

Donniel echoes this sentiment, pondering the futility of continued conflict without defined endpoints or strategic goals beyond "fighting another day."

---

The Fracturing of Israeli Unity

The episode delves into the deepening societal divisions fueled by the new military strategy. Instead of fostering unity in the face of existential threats, the prolonged conflict is creating fissures between different societal groups, questioning the essence of Zionist solidarity.

Notable Quote:
Donniel Hartman (31:30): “Who's the true Zionist? The one who's willing to fight another day or the one who says, enough already.”

Yossi reflects on historical precedents, such as the Yom Kippur War, to illustrate how prisoner perceptions can mirror current governmental attitudes, further alienating a populace already burdened by loss and uncertainty.

---

Conclusion: A Nation at a Crossroads

As the episode draws to a close, Donniel and Yossi emphasize the precarious state of Israel’s future. The new military plan, devoid of a clear post-conflict vision, threatens to erode the foundational bonds that hold Israeli society together. The hosts call for an urgent national conversation to realign military actions with ethical imperatives and to restore the cherished ethos of leaving no one behind.

Notable Quote:
Yossi Klein Halevi (30:49): “This next phase is going to be a test to the limits of everything that we take for granted.”

The episode leaves listeners contemplating the profound implications of Israel's strategic choices, urging reflection on the balance between national security and the moral obligations that define the nation's identity.

---

Final Thoughts:
"Israel at War – The New Plan" serves as a critical examination of Israel's ongoing conflict, highlighting the intricate balance between military strategy, ethical considerations, and national unity. Through heartfelt narratives and incisive dialogue, Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi provide a nuanced perspective on a nation grappling with its deepest values amid relentless turmoil.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, friends. This is Daniil Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi at the Sholem Hartman Institute. And this is our podcast, for heaven's Sake. Israel at war. Today is day 577, and we're entering a new stage of this war. It's the 577th day, but it's really a new day. Sunday night, the government authorized a new plan for Gaza, a new plan in the war, a plan which authorizes the army to capture and to occupy territory in Gaza, as distinct from stage one, where the army confronted Hamas wherever they were and then withdrew. Now, the idea is, if Hamas is hiding, we're going to capture land. And the hope is that through this change tactic, we will somehow meet Hamas in the battlefield in a way that we did not in the first stage, because they never really showed up. They changed their uniforms. They look like civilians. Whether this will be more effective or not, we'll come to in a moment. But what's most significant, there's a number of things that are very significant about this new plan. The first is the goal is to capture and to occupy. But in Hebrew, there is a word called lichbosh and a word called kibush. They come from the same root, but they don't mean the same thing. One means that the army's going to capture and going to occupy in a temporary stage. It does not mean to redefine the political status. But lichbosh, to occupy could also mean occupation. And the Minister of Finance said, yes, the government approved. We are now. Everybody said, country, get used to the fact that we are having now a new occupation, just like there's an occupation which turned the west bank into Judea and Samaria. Now we are starting the occupation of Gaza. And so the play on words, the fears, the discourse around this new plan are already emerging. But there's another, probably the most significant part of this new plan, and that is that Netanyahu explicitly stated that the goal of this plan is to achieve a complete victory over Hamas. That's its goal. A consequence of that will be, hopefully, the release of the hostages. But the goal, the complete victory, is not the release of the hostages. While many of us understood this in the past, the government refrained from saying so explicitly. Now it's explicit. Our goal is to confront Hamas hostages. We'll see. And in the process of occupying more and more territory, the dangers that the hostages are going to face. Because as we come closer to various Hamas hiding places, just like Sinwar did, the danger that they're going to murder them, the excessive Bombing is also going to cause possible deaths. We already hear Sarah Netanyahu said it was 24, but it's 24 at most, meaning they now have more information. President Trump said the same thing. So hostages are now not the central issue in this new plan and new campaign. And it's also emerging a new debate between the military leadership and the government. The government has declared this new plan, but the chief of staff, and now just now the chief spokesman of the army both declared that the primary goal of, of this new plan is to free the hostages. The government is saying the plan is to destroy Hamas. They're saying, no, it's. This is it. What is it? What's the best, most effective way? And in the midst of this, Israel is now calling up tens of thousands of reservists. And you see it, I'm hearing, saying, yeah, I'm being called up for the fifth time, for three months, for four months. So we're at this new plan, and this is what we have to talk about. We have to talk about what we think about this new plan, what this new plan means for Israel. What is it about? What are our feelings about it? How do Israelis feel about it? So, Yossi, lead us, please. This new plan, what does it do?

[B]

Well, the first thing that it does, Daniil, is offer us clarity, a clear window into the thinking of the government. Now, the truth is that we all sense this all along. The hostage families certainly have been making this accusation with more and more intensity in recent months that the government is essentially sacrificing the hostages. And, you know, when I look at the posters on the streets of Israeli cities, and you see the competing posters of these two faces, right? There are the faces of the hostages and the messages, don't leave me behind. And then there are the faces of the fallen soldiers, these posters that have been put up by government supporters saying, until victory. Don't stop until victory. And so what has been implicit in this war of posters, this war of young faces on the streets is now being made explicit by the government. And in that sense, I think it's a necessary moment. Netanyahu is now saying, without playing games, the priority is bringing down the Hamas government. And the second. And of course, we intend to save the hostages, but we all understand what that means. And then the report was leaked just the other day that the IDF chief of staff told the cabinet ministers that, you understand the implications. The hostages may die. So that's where we are in terms of Netanyahu. There's a second element here, which is smatrich the estimable finance minister, who really represents, together with Ben gvir, the Israeli far right right. And Smutrich went a step further. Smotrich made clear that his goal is not just bringing down Hamas, it's the permanent occupation of Gaza. And Daniil, I don't know if you remember this. A few months ago I said something on one of the episodes that I immediately regretted. I said, my fear is that this government is setting us up for hostages for settlements, sacrificing the hostages in order to build settlements. Smatrich has just made that explicit. Now that's not Netanyahu's goal. Netanyahu is willing to sacrifice the hostages to bring Hamas down. Smatrich is willing to sacrifice the hostages to rebuild settlements.

[A]

What does sacrifice hostages? You mentioned this a few. What does that mean to you, Yossi? How do you understand Israel? I know many people outside of Israel don't understand what the big deal is. They're saying, okay, I have a goal, I want to win, I want to win the war. And now I have to use the word clarity. I think it's, I want to be clear. I don't want to play around. Hostages aren't my goal anymore. Winning is now my goal. What does that mean, sacrificing hostages? When that word is said to you or when you say that word, what does it mean?

[B]

It's the end of an essential Israeli ethos, a foundational ethos of what makes us Israel. It's more than solidarity. It's much deeper than solidarity. It's knowing that I can depend on my fellow Israeli to give up their lives if necessary for mine. That's a level of solidarity that I don't know if it exists in any other country. And that is such a deep expression of Jewish history of Israeli. And I think that part of the shock for a good part of the population is the cavalier way with which this government has played with this fundamental ethos. What does it mean to you, Daniil? I know you have a personal stake in this.

[A]

It's a very strange, you know, there's something unimaginable about it. And I want to try to communicate it because I realize that it doesn't sound that normal for somebody outside of Israel. You called it this central ethos of the country. You know, our audience knows that my brother in law was killed and his body was held captive for two years.

[B]

He was a pilot in the 1982 Lebanon War.

[A]

In the 1982 Lebanon War. And it took two years and Israel gave 4,000 Syrian soldiers. They Weren't terrorist soldiers back to return his body and that of his co pilot who was alive? But there's another part of that story that I haven't shared that has always been a unique part of my life. Once it happened, and it happened just, I can't say recently because I don't know. Covid changed the whole notion of what was recent. So it might have been somewhere in the last 10 years. My sister got a call one day from the head of manpower in the Israeli army or in the air Force and said, I think there is a chance that we have your husband's watch. Would you like it back? Like we said, there's a chance. What's the story? The story is, as Syria was dismantling, various generals were trying to plan their exit strategy to save themselves.

[B]

Oh, wait a minute. This was now just recently.

[A]

Recently? Yeah, recently. Not this capture. It was when Assad was slaughtering hundreds of thousands to keep his Awali regime alive. But everything was beginning to fall apart and ISIS was taking over, and some of the generals wanted to hedge their bet. And there was a general who reached out who was in contact with a Mossad agent who was running around in Syria. And at some point, his bargaining chip was he says, if you take care of me, I have your pilot's watch. Immediately it spreads. Israel gives every pilot an Omega watch and they have serial numbers. The army begins a forensic investigation. They know the serial number on the Syrian general, the watch he has, and they start checking what was, and they discover, yes, that was the serial number on my brother in law's watch.

[B]

What was your brother in law's name?

[A]

Arala Katz. And Arala Katz. Aaron Katz. Arala Katz and Aaron the Cohen. That's Aaron the Kohen Sedig. And they discovered that was the serial, but there were tens of people who had it. The army then proceeds for months to track down every single watch in that serial group. And they identified and found every one of them with the exception of one, which meant that by default it was Arala's watch. Now, the whole story is beyond but one, the story that was very meaningful is they then wanted to return the watch, but they didn't return the watch. There was a ceremony in the military headquarters. The head of the Mossad, the head of the Shabak, and the head of the air Force show up for an evening of handing over the watch. And a watch, what is it? It's a watch. And they start talking and they start talking about their debt that they feel in some small measure they're bringing a part of him home. It was like this ceremony couldn't happen.

[B]

That's an unbelievable story, Daniela. And you know what's so beautiful about it is that it's a pretext. It's a pretext to connect with him, to bring him back. They felt for an evening.

[A]

Now you have to. But you have to realize these people endangered their lives, life to get the watch, not to get a body. This is a Mossad guy running around.

[B]

Unbelievable story.

[A]

And each one felt that this notion of my responsibility to Arala is to bring any part of him back for a watch. A watch. And the whole. They're crying the whole evening. You want to talk about the ethos of this country? It's like, it's not that we don't leave anybody behind. We don't leave anything behind. It's like you're. It's like, I owe you. I owe you. You're mine. And it. You know, I'm trying to understand this, and you can't understand it unless you see we're talking about 577 days of this war. But the reality is, is that Israel's been at war since its inception. There's been quiet times, but we've never stopped our war, our war of independence and our war of survival and our war against enemies who want to destroy us. It's a country at war that needs.

[B]

This ethos, a country that's a permanent, permanent war. That's why we need this ethos.

[A]

It's saying to you that we're going to ask everything of you and we're going to give everything to you. It's this notion of everythingness. And when they gave that watch, like we were sitting, and I didn't know, like, I was a little cynical, because it's a watch, you know, like, what are you supposed to do with the watch? And there's a picture of him with the watch. It's like a whole. But the evening had such solemnity and seriousness and gravitas. And if they do this for a watch, what does it mean to not do this for living hostages and to say you could die? What does that mean to Israel? What are we doing? And they're doing it in the middle of a war. They're doing it in the middle of a war where we need this ethos more than ever. It's. This is not because of the mitzvah of returning hostages. It's.

[B]

Yeah, it's. That's right.

[A]

It's just. This is my Zionism. This is my feeling of connectedness. To this people. And it's not that I want to know that if my kid goes, you'll get his body back. It's not there. It's. I want to know that I'm your primary priority, that I'll give you everything. I'll endanger my life, but I am sacred to you, my life, my body, my watch. Everything about I am sacred. And when we now declare that we could just, you know, they'll die.

[B]

You've blown me away with that story. Actually, it's one of the most extraordinary and bizarre Israeli stories that I've ever heard, and it says everything about who we've been and what this government is endangering. But let me for a moment play devil's advocate here and take the position for a moment of the government supporters, because there's another side to this watch story, which is that the enemy knows how vulnerable we are. Here you have a Syrian general who knows he's got this extraordinary bargaining chip. And take that mindset and you'll begin to understand the Gillette shalit exchange of 1200 terrorists for one Israeli soldier. And what the government supporters are saying is we can't continue to be held hostage by blackmail, that this ethos is undermining another essential ethos of Israel, of Israeli ness, which is we do everything we can to defend ourselves against a genocidal enemy. Now, I said that I would play devil's advocate for a moment. And what I consider to be the weak point in this argument is that you don't change something so fundamental that's so much a part of the Israeli identity. Without a national conversation on the whim of a government decision, you can't do it. And you can't do it on the backs of these hostages whom we betrayed. The government, the army, we betrayed these people. We failed to defend them in the most minimal way. They were dragged out of their homes. And so, yes, I think we need to have a national conversation about the watch. But after this hostage tragedy, it's very.

[A]

Interesting because I've said this before and I believe that, as you said, it's a very legitimate point to say this is a tragedy. I can't save the hostages. But if you say that, you have to act as if it's a tragedy.

[B]

Exactly, exactly.

[A]

You have to get up in front of the country and cry. Yes, cry and say, I know that I am changing something, but October 7th has activated a unique moment and a danger. And I have to speak honestly about you. I have to mourn it. You have to embrace the hostage Families.

[B]

You.

[A]

There's. If. If you truly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Are sorry about the hostages, but you believe that we can't be held hostage by such an evil empire or an evil force. I could understand it, but then the whole conversation.

[B]

Exactly right, exactly.

[A]

And I want to add one more dimension to this, Yossi, if I can. One of the reasons why I am so against this new stage, it's not because I believe that it is inconceivable to argue that we can't be held hostages by the fact that they have hostages and Israel's national interests have to prevail. It's that part of me understands that elements of this government hate the hostages. They hate them, or they hate the power that the hostages have over us.

[B]

They see them as an obstacle to.

[A]

Their policy, whether their policy is settlements. But I think it's even deeper than that. Nationalism. And this is part of my feeling about this stage of the war. It's about power. It's about military might. It's about smashing and defeating and succumbing. It's the glory of the war. Part of me believes that the real conflict with the hostages is not our ability to win, it's our ability to celebrate this nationalist fervor. Hostages are weakness. Vulnerability, we don't like that. I don't want vulnerability. Because nationalists, ultra nationalists, it's. You always want to fight one more day for the sake of your country, for the sake of your dignity. All of that. Hostages were always in the way. We want to kill, we want to defeat, we want to trample. And these little families, these little families, you know their faces, it's like, well, that's weakness. And ultranationalists despise that weakness.

[B]

I think you're right.

[A]

Because of that.

[B]

I think you're right. Yes.

[A]

That's the motivation, and that scares me the most.

[B]

But, you know, in a way, we are reverting to an old Israeli mindset. During the Yom Kippur War, the Israeli prisoners of war were regarded by some people here, and maybe by the army itself, with a kind of contempt. You allowed yourself to be taken prisoner. If you remember, they were not welcomed back as heroes. That was part of the trauma of the Yom Kippur war. So in that sense, I think that there are elements in this government that have not caught up with the rest of Israeli society. But I also think for this government, there's a personal issue here. It's not only that the hostages are an affront to Israeli power, they're an affront to the credibility and power of the Government, because they are a continual reminder that this is the government of October 7th. And this government is doing everything possible to put the blame of October 7 on the army, on intelligence. And of course, it belongs in all those places, but it begins with the government. And so the hostages are a multiple threat.

[A]

There are multiple. If they would somehow just die, then the 1,200 or so people who died on October 7th will add another 24, and then we'll close the storm.

[B]

And really, what's the big deal? What's the big deal?

[A]

What's the big deal?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, you said something earlier that I want to come back to for a moment, which is the contempt that this government has shown the hostage families. That's something we've never seen before in Israeli society. And look at how Sarah Netanyahu just casually, cavalierly dropped the bombshell that there are less than 24 hostages alive. And just the way in which this was done, just as a kind of an aside, she's appearing with Netanyahu on camera. When have we ever experienced anything like this? The hostage families get their information not from the government, not from private briefings, but from the media. And there's something so profoundly offensive, and this is such a deep rupture in how we've always conducted ourselves. And so what's happening now is in some way the culmination and the policy expression of an attitude that we've been living with for the last year and a half, and people abroad, even people who closely follow Israel. And I've experienced this when I travel around North America speaking to Jewish communities. They've missed this part, this particular bitterness and sense of betrayal that so many Israelis feel toward this government is not about policy. It's much deeper than policy. It's this. How can you behave this way? You're destroying everything that we love about everything that's precious about Israel.

[A]

I want to add another step or another aspect to this new plan, because if all we do is talk about the impact on the hostages, while it's very central to our own narrative and understanding and love for the country, there's also the Gazans. There's someone else who's going to be suffering at this new stage, this new plant. And I can tell you, as somebody who follows very carefully, as do you, nobody has an idea what this new plan is supposed to achieve. They're not even agreeing. Is the new plan to achieve hostage release? Is it to reoccupy Gaza temporarily, to destroy Hamas? It's we're going to do something brand new with new forces. We've been doing it now for 577 days. I was reading that as this new plan is unfolding now, all of Rafah is uninhabitable, basically even the 20% that remained inhabitable in Gaza, all of it's going to be uninhabitable. The whole thing is going to be destroyed. And I don't know if anymore the goal is even to destroy Hamas. I know that's a fantasy. I think part of the problem that we're facing right now is this government has no political strategy. And I know we've spoken about this before, but in this new plan, what we see is that the only strategy this government seems to have is to fight another day. Is to fight another day. Let's fight another day. It's true, we didn't defeat Hamas. And I do believe that a lot of the quiet in the country, which is also dissipating, grew out of the pictures of Hamas re emerging from the tunnels with tens of thousands of terrorists armed etc and there. And the fact that we really didn't debilitate their ability to rule in Gaza.

[B]

Well, we have, we've degraded it.

[A]

Degraded the word. I was very, I was very precise.

[B]

But we haven't destroyed it.

[A]

We haven't destroyed it. I don't know if I was using the right word, but it, we've degraded, but they're still there. We degraded their, their ability to be a military force threatening Israel, but not to be a police force or military for within Gaza itself. And we saw them walking and so Israelis realized we have to do something. But again, there was a great article in the newspaper. Really, is there any other options? And so politics for our government is let's fight another day and more Gazans are going to be killed. Civilian casualties are legitimate as long as it enhances or necessary for your self defense. But if you're fighting a war, that's not the not going to enhance your self defense. You don't even have a clear, forget an exit, you don't even have a clear what you're doing there.

[B]

So this is the thing today.

[A]

It's like you're in search of some elusive something.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so Smotrich knows what he's doing, but that's not what the army's claiming it's doing. Right. So here it is. We're just going to be, you know, Israel at war for another hundred, two hundred days. For what end? To where?

[B]

So I have to ask myself two questions. The first is if they weren't the hostages, would I be in favor of continuing this war? The second question is, if there was a political plan in place for the day after, would I be in favor of continuing this war? And my honest answer is yes. If both of those factors were in place, the hostages have all been released and the government has a coherent plan bringing the Palestinian Authority or whatever the plan will be, in conjunction with parts of the Arab world that are ready to participate in the post war rehabilitation of Gaza. I would say yes, continue the war until Hamas ability to govern is defeated. And this is an old argument between us, Daniil. It's played out for months.

[A]

I'm not arguing even.

[B]

No, no, but not now, but in the past, of whether victory is achievable. And what is victory? For me, victory is simply that Hamas is not able to declare victory and Hamas is not able to resume governing. And of course, Hamas is never going to be completely eradicated. Yes, Hamas is an idea, et cetera, et cetera. But I do think that there is the military capability to make it impossible for Hamas to govern, provided that it doesn't endanger the lives of the hostages, which it will, and provided that the government had a credible post war plan, which it doesn't. So you see. But if you have a post, those two factors are absent. And at the end of the day, I agree with you. But I come to it from a different way.

[A]

Fair enough. Fair enough. And I don't need purity of motives, as long as at the end, we all agree we can allow that. But I too, see, if you actually had a plan for the day after that would guide your military actions. I don't know if I would be for or against. Like, to what extent do I have to destroy Rafah in order to create a day out? Do I have to completely wipe everything out? Maybe there's other ways to fight, disarm. To have Hamas officially declare we have been destroyed, that's never going to happen. Even Hezbollah didn't declare it. But then I would. At least it's sensible. There's. So we're. Now you'll see, there's a new plan. And in this new plan, Israelis are being asked to call up again. And I want to tell you, for the first time since October, I'm hearing more and more people saying, I've had enough.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm not talking people, you know, I'm talking not people on the political left. I'm talking across the board. I'm talking about Likud supporters.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like you're going to take Me again. And they're saying, for what? So now they're asking for what you want me to again. You know, friends who have just had a new baby, like, you want it for what, another three, 200? Like, what am I going to achieve? And there's a sense that there is no political horizon, and that's why the war is when the war is all we have. So you know what I think we're doing? I think we're just going to keep on fighting until Trump gives us a solution. You know, Trump's coming in another 10.

[B]

Days or until he gives us an ultimatum and say you'll give us stop the war.

[A]

Yeah, but he'll give us an ultimatum connected to a deal. You know, the Saudis want to invest a trillion dollars and he's going to meet with the Qataris and the Emirates and Bahrain. He's going to meet. There's going to be a whole summit. It's the summit of the petrodollars, let's call them the summit of the trillions, which are going to come to be invested. And it's an interest of the United States. And I'm not blaming Trump for doing that, that that's his interest. He wants to invest and make America as this will make America great again, having more or stabilizing whatever it is, but that's it. So what we're going to do is all we know how to do is we know how to fight because our government can't say anything. So we're going to fight. So we're now a new plan and how it will end and what the cost will be. Our soldiers are starting to die again. Thousands are dying in the thousands, in the thousands. It's last words, Yossi.

[B]

Yeah. One last anxiety about the consequences of this new phase is the impact it will have on the reserves. The backbone of the army is the reserves. And the government is placing many reservists before an impossible dilemma. Do I continue fighting a war that may result, God forbid, in the deaths of the hostages, when that's my main reason for fighting the war in the first place? And so that's an extra layer of angst that this next phase of the war is introducing.

[A]

I know I promised you last word, but your remarks reminded me of something. And you could comment the last word on this because I'm not disagreeing with you. There's another dimension of divisiveness. Who's going to be willing and wanting to go to the war? Increasingly, it's those who have a more nationalist or ultra nationalist or an occupation agenda. And now instead of this war being a great unifier where we're fighting for the survival of our people, we're fighting, you know, your notion of deterrence. We're fighting in order to be free. We're fighting to avoid these dangers and that there's no left wing or right wing and religious or secular or Jerusalemite or Tel Aviv, nothing. We're all under the stretcher together. The more we continue to fight these types of wars, you're going to have different units. It's not the country fighting anymore. And then who's the true Zionist? The one who's willing to fight another day or the one who says, enough already. That level of divisiveness is so much deeper than any of the political arguments that we're having. It's that I don't like using these words, but that might truly be an existential game changer. Now, last thoughts or last words?

[B]

I saw an interview the other day with a commander in a combat reservist unit and it was a beautiful and agonizing interview. And he says, look, I've been out there for hundreds of days and I got a call up notice and of course I will go again, but what are you doing to us? What are you doing to the country? We will go wherever you tell us to go. And what was so moving about this, and this is something I think that's not well understood by many abroad. This isn't a political issue for Israelis. This is really a family issue. We're being called up. We go because we're defending our homes, we're defending our families, literally. We're defending our existence. And don't play with that. He was appealing to the government. Don't take this for granted. Don't break us. And this next phase is going to be a test to the limits of everything that we take for granted.

[A]

About Israeli A new plan without a plan. A new plan with very serious consequences on so many different levels. Friends, welcome to our world. Israel at war day 577 and a day in which the well being of the hostages is more questionable than ever before. Yossi, thank you, thank you.