Israeli-American Relations at a Crossroads

Summary

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Episode Overview

Title: Israeli-American Relations at a Crossroads
Podcast: For Heaven’s Sake (Shalom Hartman Institute, Ark Media)
Date: June 26, 2026
Hosts: Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi
Theme:
This live edition of the podcast confronts the profound shift in Israeli-American relations—both at the state and Jewish communal levels—amid rising political alienation, plummeting US public opinion on Israel, and internal Jewish divides. Donniel and Yossi wrestle with the meaning, causes, and necessary responses to what they see as an existential inflection point for Israel and diaspora Jewry.

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1. Setting the Stage: A Historic Realignment

Key Points:

• Yossi opens by highlighting the speed and severity of the recent rupture: Only months before, Israeli and US pilots coordinated missions over Iran; now, Israel feels treated as "virtual outcasts, pariahs."
  Quote: “We've gone from that standing in a matter of a few months to virtual outcasts, pariahs.” (00:01)

• Donniel describes a sense of existential crisis, greater even than the threat from Iran: Israel is losing world support – especially from the US – and its own sense of moral direction.
  Quote: "I feel that we are in an existential danger to lose the world and to lose our moral direction. We're at a moment where we have to decide who we are. And for me, this is even more dangerous than Iran." (00:24)

• Recent incidents that crystallized the crisis include Vice President Vance’s dismissive treatment of Israel, US public opinion turning (60% unfavorable, 27% extremely unfavorable), and the election of openly anti-Israel politicians in New York—winning, in part, on their antagonism toward Israel.

  Quote: "When 60% view Israel unfavorably and 27% view us extremely unfavorably, we're in trouble." (03:41)

Timestamps:

• Pilot coordination to pariah status: (00:00–00:24)
• Existential framing: (00:24–01:33)
• Pew report, US opinion, Vice President Vance: (01:33–06:03)

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2. The Fraying of Israel-American/Jewish Bonds

Key Points:

• Yossi uses the imagery of the two flags—Israeli and American—on synagogues' bimahs to reflect the historic alliance, now “torn” in a way not seen since WWII.

  Quote: "For me this past week, a major tear in the entwinement of those two flags happened." (07:32)

• He references the “red lines crossed” on both the right (Vance's disrespect) and the left (the demonization of AIPAC and allegations of dark money and control), noting the personal sting as someone long active with AIPAC.

• The role of American Jews, especially progressives: Yossi is troubled by the number of Jews who voted for anti-Israel candidates, asking if the left is still willing to defend Israel’s legitimacy in the political system and even their own communal security.

  Quote: "Are American Jews on the left prepared any longer to defend the legitimacy of Israel's existence? We're talking bottom line here now, because that's what this election was about." (12:29)

• He draws a connection to rising antisemitism, referencing recent FBI-foiled attacks on AIPAC.

• Donniel responds with empathy for American Jews torn between their "America"—as a place that shaped their Jewishness— and their ties to Israel, warning it’s profoundly simplistic to reduce their choices to “choose Israel, period.”
  Quote: "What are Jewish interests are actually not that simple. And people are asked to choose.” (15:44)

• The hosts debate the complexities of AIPAC’s shifting policies and the demands placed on American Jewish voters.

Memorable Quotes:

• Yossi: “We got the answer … a politician whose deepest passion is hatred of Israel ... is now changing the nature of the congressional delegation from New York. ... Are American Jews ... prepared to defend Israel’s existence in the political system?” (12:09–13:26)
• Donniel: "I wonder whether we fully understand the complex reality that liberal American Jews encounter." (14:33)

Timestamps:

• The tearing of bonds, elections in New York: (07:32–12:29)
• Jewish left, voting and legitimacy: (12:29–15:44)
• American Jews’ identity and pressures: (15:44–20:41)

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3. Existential Crisis on Both Sides

Key Points:

• The divide between Israeli and American Jewish worldviews described as an “abyss” (Obama–Trump, left–right, Israel–diaspora).

• Donniel and Yossi share personal struggles with anger and empathy toward the “other side.” Donniel urges mutual tempering of judgment: “If I could understand you, you're not betraying me, you're not betraying the Jewish people, you're not betraying Israel.” (21:59)

• Yossi distinguishes between past debates (e.g., Obama’s policies) and current threats (empowering politicians who “gave us the tent camps on campuses”): “Something different happened here.” (23:30)

Memorable Quotes:

• "You're not betraying the Jewish people... There might be consequences that I disagree with, but I think there's a different language." (21:59)
• "We're not talking about Obama ... we're talking about handing New York City over to the people who gave us the tent camps on campuses." (22:47)

Timestamps:

• American/Israeli divide through political cycles: (20:41–22:47)

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4. What Should Israel Do? (Responsibility and Self-Critique)

Key Points:

• Donniel steers the conversation to what agency Israel has amid this crisis.

• Yossi admits hesitancy: it's hard to focus on self-critique when under hostile attack. Yet he insists: Israel must reckon with its own “conduct, … what we have projected, especially the last few years, especially this government, that has made it easier for those who seek to criminalize us.” (26:07)

• Recognition of “deep and ugly trends” exposed (not created) by Netanyahu’s government, including settler violence, annexation talk, and lack of moral reckoning.

• The process is not entirely in Israeli hands (broader civilizational/political shifts), but the “meaning of Zionism” entails taking responsibility where possible, especially in self-critique.

Memorable Quotes:

• Yossi: “One of those moments where the options that we need to assume responsibility for is self-criticism.” (27:12)
• Donniel: "An Israel which speaks another language is an Israel that's trying to compete to win back hearts and minds." (29:48)

Timestamps:

• Israel’s share of responsibility: (23:55–29:48)

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5. The Path Forward: Moral Aspiration, Practical Realities, and Political Divides

Key Points:

• Donniel pushes the conversation further: The situation is so dire that “standard” reforms (like curbing settler violence) aren’t enough anymore. He says, “I find I'm in now in a Deno Iranian moment,” where losing world support and moral bearings is a greater existential threat than Iran. (30:45)

• For Donniel, only putting a serious two-state conversation (“the PS word: Palestinian state”) back on the agenda can restore Israel’s moral and international standing—even though that’s almost unthinkable for most Israelis post–October 7.

  Quote: “There is no future for Israel unless at some point... there can be a two-state solution. No future. This is not Zionism. This is not Judaism.” (34:51)

• He shares a personal anecdote: Even his granddaughter, previously center-left, now demands buffer zones, not peace, after the trauma of October 7.

• Donniel critiques current politicians (e.g., Bennett) for offering only modest improvements ("improving life from a 3 to a 7") without addressing fundamental issues. He urges a vision “that ennobles Zionism.”

• Yossi responds: He supports at least “paying lip service to a two state solution—for practical reasons if not moral ones,” but after October 7, even formerly left Israelis like him “aren’t there.”

  Quote: “We each have certain red button issues. This is my Iran.” (37:57)

Timestamps:

• Existential reckoning, need for two-state vision: (29:48–39:11)
• Tension between prophetic vision and realistic teaching: (39:13–43:47)

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6. How to Move Forward: Prophets, Teachers, and Political Realities

Key Points:

• The hosts discuss their own and each other’s roles: Should they be “prophets” (demanding radical moral vision) or “teachers” (moving the community incrementally)?

• Donniel argues someone must give voice to higher aspirations, even while acknowledging practical limitations.

• Yossi notes that even the Israeli opposition (except for Yair Golan) isn’t prepared to embrace the two-state solution, meaning change will take time and careful conversation, not radical advocacy.

• Yossi concludes that “after three years post–October 7, many of us are ready to have a conversation about whether we should have the conversation now. That’s not enough for you, and I understand that’s not enough for the world. But realistically, that’s where I think part of the Israeli public that once was part of a moral conversation and maybe still wants to be, but can’t, can be moved.”

• He suggests moving people is more possible via practical, not moral, appeals right now: the threat of breakup with international community may provide leverage for change.

Memorable Quotes:

• "But the Jewish people that I’ve always been a part of never let reality define our aspirations. And right now our aspirations are too low. And don’t be surprised if you’re losing the world and you’re just not there." (43:27)
• "We may be five minutes away from a major break with the international community, the kind of break that we haven't experienced yet." (44:38)

Timestamps:

• Prophets vs teachers, concluding appeals: (39:11–45:14)

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7. Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the shift in American attitudes:
  “Just a few years ago, maybe even a year or two ago, those percentages were reversed [re: US favorable opinions of Israel]. And how quickly that’s happened.” – Yossi (07:32)

• On the vote for anti-Israel candidates:
  “A politician whose deepest commitment, whose deepest passion is hatred of Israel ... is now changing the nature of the congressional delegation from New York.” – Yossi (13:12)

• On Israeli self-examination:
  “I have to deal with the full complexity of our situation. And that includes, as hard as it is for me, ... self-reckoning. What is it in our conduct ... that has contributed, that has made it easier for those who seek to criminalize us.” – Yossi (26:07)

• On the need for radical vision:
  “There is no future for Israel unless at some point there can be a two-state solution. No future. This is not Zionism. This is not Judaism. We didn’t come home to occupy another people.” – Donniel (34:51)

• On the limits of Israeli public opinion:
  “If I'm not there, most Israelis aren't there.” – Yossi (38:45)

• On the prophetic vs pragmatic roles:
  “A prophet wouldn’t care if people can hear them or not. They would say ... hear my words, you chieftains of Sdom… But I've been working... to try to ask how do we talk in a way that we deal with some people's fears.” – Donniel (41:11)

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8. Segment Guide (Timestamps)

• 00:00–01:33 — Framing: From alliance to crisis
• 01:33–06:03 — US public opinion and political humiliation
• 07:32–12:29 — Bond with US Jewry symbolized and strained
• 12:29–15:44 — American Jewish left’s dilemmas and security threats
• 15:44–20:41 — The complexities of American Jewish identity and voting
• 20:41–22:47 — Existential divides: Obama, Trump, betrayal, and empathy
• 23:55–29:48 — What Israel must own, and the limits of self-criticism
• 29:48–39:11 — Existential danger, two-state vision, and generational trauma
• 39:11–45:14 — Prophets vs teachers, conclusions and appeals to practical interests

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9. Tone & Closing

• The conversation is intimate, searching, and sometimes raw, marked by mutual respect and vulnerability.
• Both hosts express their inner tensions between protectiveness and critique, loyalty and realism, aspiration and caution.
• While disagreeing on pace and priorities, they challenge their audience—and one another—to keep defending a Zionism and Judaism that are morally robust and relevant in crisis.

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This summary captures the depth, nuances, and spirit of the discussion, providing a roadmap through the episode’s most important themes, arguments, and turning points.

Transcript

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Foreign. You are listening to an art media podcast. A few months ago, our pilots and their pilots were coordinating flights together over Iran. And we've gone from that standing in a matter of a few months to virtual outcasts, pariahs.

[Daniil Hartman]

I feel that we are in an existential danger to lose the world and to lose our moral direction. We're at a moment where we have to decide who we are. And for me, this is even more dangerous than Iran. Hi friends, this is Daniil Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi from the Sholem Hartman Institute. And this is our podcast, for heaven's sake, in collaboration with ARC Media. Today is Wednesday, June 24, and today's podcast is part of the Robert P. Kogod annual lecture. We dedicated a prior podcast in honor of Bob. And this is an annual lecture that his children funded in his honor. This is a special podcast live from the Sholem Hartman Institute in Jerusalem in front of our clp. I don't even know what that stands for.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Community Leadership Program, right?

[Daniil Hartman]

That's right, the Community Leadership Program.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Took me many years to learn that.

[Daniil Hartman]

Yeah, I knew these things before, but now with age. So our thing today is a tough one. And the rule that you and I have applied is that even if we don't know what we want to say, or even if we don't even like the subject, if we feel that it is the biggest subject that the Jewish people are facing right now, it's our job to do it, to talk about it. And you're the one, Yossi, who said, daniil, this is what we have to talk about. And I said, no, no. And you said, yes. And I said, you're right. And he was it doesn't always work

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

that way though, doesn't.

[Daniil Hartman]

And the theme today is called the American Israeli Relationship at a crossroads. This last two weeks haven't been easy for Israelis, and I know they haven't been easy for friends of Israel around the world and in particular in North America. A few weeks ago we were hit with the Pew report about how throughout the world we're losing support, but the country that is most significant and which defends Israel and which the day to day stability of this country, our ability to be a free people in our home not subject to a United Nations Security Council sanction, is the United states. And when 60% view Israel unfavorably and 27% view us extremely unfavorably, we're in trouble. And in that context, these last two weeks, it's really a week, but it feels like a lifetime. We Started by being, I would, assaulted, humiliated, demeaned by Vice President Vance. You know, our story of our people is we're at the center of history. And just. You just. You're 9 million people. You don't matter. I don't have to consider you. I don't have to bring Deal and the memorandum of understanding to you. I don't have to ask you to comment. I don't have to ask you to suggest some improvements. You bombed with us, but now you're like, we are going to worry about American interests and the whole notion that we are a security central ally and asset of the United States. This last week, it was shattered. Whether it's objectively true or not is a separate question, but it certainly isn't experienced. That's not his experience. And we've been assaulted by the vice president for quite a while. And I've been feeling this, and I saw this also recently in an interesting article where when people ask the vice president a hostile question about Israel, whether it is at a turning point event where someone says, why do we support Israel when they are violating our Christian values? Or if someone recently asks, how could you support the genocide of Israel? And he never answers those questions.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

He doesn't defend us.

[Daniil Hartman]

He doesn't defend. We've been uncomfortable. But to see that get played out now in a war of profound partnership where the story we told ourselves about ourselves is how we're doing this together to deal with a global threat to the world, an existential threat to us, and something that will be an existential threat to the world. And we were there, and we were. We told the stories of our achievements and our heroism. And now just, shh, shh. And then when President Trump says, netanyahu, just stop. You're aggravating me. It was just like it was in our face. It's so different from the story we tell ourselves about ourselves. I don't know if Israelis fully even knew how to digest it. And then just yesterday, the recent elections in New York and the election of two of the most. I don't know how you want to call them, anti Israeli, potential future members of Congress, members of the Democratic Socialists of America, individuals who on October 7th condemned Israel. It's not people who argue about In May, on October 7th, we were evil.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Yeah. They're not critics. They're denying the legitimacy of Israel's existence.

[Daniil Hartman]

Of Israel's existence. And you sense that also from Mamdani, and we did a whole podcast on Mamdani, both ours. And then I think also in Call Me back and we sensed that it was a different story and it's coming to fruition. Something's changing. And what's troubling is that these candidates positions on Israel is what's enabling them to win. Like when you think about the challenges facing the United States or the world, you know, you could criticize us, I criticize us all the time. But that, that criticism is what garners the support, the sense of alienation. So we're at a crossroads. And in today's podcast we want to talk about how we understand this moment. And it's not an easy moment. And then we want to spend most of our time, if we can, on talking about, so what do we do? Because an essential part of the new story that we tell ourselves about ourselves is that we're not always victims. There's things that we could do. We don't just say, oy, what did they do to us? And we don't turn to God and say, gebalt, please save us. We try to help ourselves. So those will be the two stages. And so, Yossi, this was not an easy week for you at all, at all. How do you understand what's happening or what are your feelings about it?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

I think about the two flags on the bema of American synagogues. And this last week in particular was a turning point in the history of the entwinement of those two flags. And the significance of those two flags for the Jewish people is that it was the alliance between Israel and American Jewry and then later on Israel and America. That was the means through which the Jewish people became, began to heal from the Holocaust and began to reclaim power, hard power here, political and philanthropic power in America. And that's what those two flags, that's what they always represented. For me this past week, a major tear in the entwinement of those two flags happened, I think about these last months in Jerusalem. I'm sure you saw this. There were flags that were mounted on some balconies that showed the Israeli and American flags blending into each other. The same flag, no daylight between these two flags. And that's what these last months of shared combat in Iran represented. The fusion of these two flags and the red lines that were crossed this week were from both sides of the political spectrum. As you mentioned, Vance not only condemned us, but spoke in a demeaning way that was, I think, really unprecedented from any major American politician, certainly a president or a vice president. And on the other side, Mandani went a step further. And even Jewish organizations on the left that had supported him, felt uneasy, had to somehow distance themselves. When he called AIPAC monsters and drew all the old tropes, dark money, control, evil. And I took that very personally, Daniil. I spent many years on the aipac, speaking on the lecture circuit. I worked very closely with AIPAC 10 years ago to try to stop the Obama deal with Iran. And I always thought that I was part of a legitimate, if intense, political disagreement. And the mayor of the most Jewish city in the diaspora told us that actually we are beyond the pale. And so from either end of the political spectrum, the message that we got this past week was that something fundamental has changed. And what also really shocks me is the rapidity with which this has happened. You mentioned the percentages of Americans who support Israel, who oppose Israel. Just a few years ago, maybe even a year or two ago, those percentages were reversed. And how quickly that's happened. A few months ago, we were America's closest ally. Our pilots and their pilots were coordinating flights together over Iran. And, you know, when Vance said that you Israelis should remember that Trump is the last friend you have, I was thinking, well, you know, you guys should remember that we're the only dependable military ally that, that you have in the world. No one else fought with America, only us. Now, of course, we had a vested interest. Nevertheless, no one else stood beside America. And we've gone from that standing in a matter of a few months to virtual outcasts, pariahs. So the other thing, Daniil, that really weighed on me, especially with Mamdani and the results of the election in New York. We've talked about this in the previous podcast was the 30% of New York Jews who are said to have voted for Mamdani. Now, you and I know many of the Jews who voted for him. And we got lots of responses from listeners who said, you know, we didn't vote for Hamdani because of his anti Israel position. We love Israel. We voted for him because it was a municipal election. And what does a mayor have to do with international relations? Well, yesterday we got the response. We got the answer to that question. A politician whose deepest commitment, whose deepest passion is hatred of Israel, that's where he began his political career is now changing. The nature of the congressional delegation from New York. From New York, the congressional New York delegation is becoming a center point in Congress of anti Zionism. And that's directly on those Jews who voted for Mamdani. And the question that I have after yesterday's election is, are American Jews on the left prepared any longer to defend the legitimacy of Israel's existence. We're talking bottom line here now, because that's what this election was about. Bottom line, the right to exist. Are they prepared to defend Israel's existence in the political system? And there's one last point, and it's a related question, but are they prepared to defend their own safety? Because when the mayor of New York calls a mainstream Jewish organization monstrous, he is endangering, not intentionally, but certainly in the current atmosphere, he is endangering the lives of New York Jews. And just in the last couple weeks, there were two plots that were uncovered by the FBI that were aimed at aipac. There was an attempted attack against the AIPAC office in Florida, and the attack that was planned against the White House law on the Trump birthday extravaganza was tied as well into an attack, as the alleged conspirators put it, against politicians who accept money from aipac. That's the atmosphere today. And so any second thoughts, the 30%, any regrets, any apology to the rest of us for bringing us to this moment?

[Daniil Hartman]

I have a split identity, Yossi. As an Israeli, I hear you. But after speaking to hundreds of Mamdani voters, I wonder whether we fully understand the complex reality that liberal American Jews encounter. And you want an apology or a change of behavior?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

I'll settle for that.

[Daniil Hartman]

Okay. Or a change of behavior. But maybe they're stuck. You know, we just, these last few weeks, are beginning to understand what it means to live in Trump's world. It's not a pretty world, Yossi. We deluded ourselves into believing that there is this ideological friend and ally. And what happens to people who understood Trump much more clearly than you or I, or because of the filter of looking at Israel's interest, chose to ignore a lot of things, a lot of abnormal, distorted, dystopian realities that he's promulgating. And Israelis know it better now. But there's another story to tell, and I think part of the story to tell, and I want to put on the table a recognition of an impossible situation that many American Jews find themselves in. As I've learned from Yehuda, and he articulated so beautifully, American Judaism is not a hyphenated identity where we're Jews and we live in America or in Canada. America became home, which has shaped our Judaism. It's created a new Judaism. And Jews don't just live in America. Their whole identity is invested in a certain story about America. And that story became a Jewish story. And they experienced their Jewish story, not just their self interest. On a immediate level, of you know, are you going to help on campus or not help on campus, which by the way is also very important. But whether I could breathe in America and a whole slew of policies and statements about immigrants and rule of law and institutions and the privilege of wealth, and they're just looking at it, asking, is my America coming to an end? So you're positing it as are you willing to defend Israel or defend Jewish interests? What I've come to understand is that what are Jewish interests are actually not that simple. And people are asked to choose. Now, as Israelis, I'm with you in saying I want you to choose me.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Choose me.

[Daniil Hartman]

And that's a natural thing to say, please choose me. But it's not a self evident issue. When your home is on fire, your home is on fire. And even take AIPAC for an example. AIPAC tolerated me. They loved you, right? Like when they wanted to reach out to progressives, they called me, did a great job. True, Yassin, but I also, as an Israeli, my natural inclination, I love aipac. I do. It's my natural. I get up in the morning saying, who's fighting for me? Aipac. Simple. It's like, wasn't complicated. And I didn't dissect every single issue. And AIPAC by and large supported Israel's interests, but still maintained, I believe, a profoundly bipartisan agenda. It was a big tent in which the Jewish people or part of the Jewish people were able to find themselves. And I was thank God for AIPAC that there was someone fighting for us. It was an easy thing for me. But again, the experience of many North American Jews right now is AIPAC shifted its policy and it was an interesting move. And I'm not criticizing the move in which I don't need to advocate and speak. I want to try to access as much power as I can to try to influence the primaries so that more like we need a win, we need to win in Congress, we don't need to win in the hearts and minds. I think that's changed, by the way. And I think we do have to win in the hearts and minds. And I think AIPAC has to change back some of its policy, but I'll leave that aside. But then numerous Jews are encountering AIPAC making decisions to support candidates who they're looking at saying, I can't breathe in this candidate's America, I know this person will vote correctly on Israel and they'll support this aid, and they'll be there, et cetera. Israel might be fine, but do I really have to support candidates who deny that Biden won the election. Like, are there any lines? And so true. As an Israeli, we feel that Israel should be the line. But I think you'll see it behooves us as people who recognize that it's hard to be a Jew today, that Jews who might vote for this or that candidate or voted for Mamdani or some might agree, some more might vote that Jewish interests are under assault from many sides. And it's not so simple to say you're being disloyal. It's just harder. And as Israelis, we have a right to be more. I don't want to say simplistic about it, because your position is not simplistic. And it hits deep in my soul, and I resonate with a lot of it. So I don't know what the right term is to be something. But as people who belong to our people, it behooves us to listen. And they're telling you it's just harder, Yossi. So I can't apologize to you. And I'm not even sure I want to change my position.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

I really appreciate what you've said and the way you've said it. It was very moving and up to a point to quote you, I agree with you. I think that one way of understanding the divide, almost an abyss that's opened between Israelis and American Jews over the last two decades is seeing the divide through the prism of Obama and Trump, because the two major centers of Jewish life were on either side of both of those elections. You'll remember we had this conversation at the time here at the Institute during the Iran debate. And I was very angry at American Jews. And it was really our friend and colleague Yehuda Kurtzer who forced me to see things a little bit differently, little bit to temper my judgment. And I think that that should be reciprocal. I understand American Jews being angry at Israelis for feeling gratitude and even warmth toward Trump before these last few weeks. And at the same time, I would hope for a little bit of tempered attitude in their anger, you know, But,

[Daniil Hartman]

Yossi, when you're facing something that you see as existentially dangerous, and I want to remind you of someone who you know very well, you no. Like you've lived so long with a clarity about Iranian nuclear threat. Maybe this is their existential moment. And it could be that we have different existential moments. And then we don't have to agree, but we don't have to ask for apologies or changing. It's like, I'm not you. You're not me. You know, like, as we say, like you and I, we live, we don't always see. If I could understand you, you're not betraying me, you're not betraying the Jewish people, you're not betraying Israel. There might be consequences that I disagree with, but I think there's a different language.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Okay, yes, yes. When we're talking about Obama and Trump, but we're talking about voting for or empowering handing New York City over to the people who gave us the tent camps on campuses, that was the move here. We're not talking about Obama, which was, okay, disagree. It was a bitter disagreement. We're still within the broad context.

[Daniil Hartman]

I appreciate that distinction. That distinction makes sense. But could I move to the next stage? Because I know that in a lot of people's minds it's not a distinctive distinction. But I appreciate it and I, I hear you because you're saying I gotta stop there, but not here. And all right, let's put it down.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Something different happened here.

[Daniil Hartman]

I appreciate that. I don't know if all the people, if they're going down all that path or not, but let's leave it as such. Let's shift to the second half. We're at a very painful moment. Let's talk about Israel, not talk about, you know, you're saying North American Jews, you should do chuva for who you elected or whatever, but in this reality of this crossroads, what is in Israel's

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

power to do so? Daniil, you and I have had this conversation really since we've started the podcast. It's been one of the running themes, which is what does Israel need to do? And implicitly, what is our share of the responsibility for bringing us to this point of crisis and what do we need to do to try to shift the negative momentum? And I'm a little bit hesitant to go down this path. I always have been in our conversations, but especially at this moment when the attacks against us are so vicious from both sides that it feels as if taking on responsibility for this moment is almost too self effacing and that this is a moment where Jews need some backbone and we need to push back.

[Daniil Hartman]

Is this the old Yossi?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Absolutely, it certainly is. But you know, to my horror, everything that I believed when I was young and very right wing about what the world was and the world was not that 40 years ago I thought it was, but. But it's certainly starting to feel that way now.

[Daniil Hartman]

So your position and I have changed, but your personality hasn't.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Well, you know, it's Actually a big struggle for me because I don't want to go back to who I was 40, 50 years ago in any sense, but also politically. And so I struggle with that. And you help push me. And that's one of the dynamics that I so much appreciate about our conversation, is I don't want to go here, but I have to go here because we have a chavuta, we have a study partnership and you have to at least meet your study partner halfway.

[Daniil Hartman]

You don't have to halfway.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

We have to at least recognize the concerns of your study partner that you have to do otherwise.

[Daniil Hartman]

But is it also the reality that you don't have to recognize? Like, do you really think.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

No. No.

[Daniil Hartman]

And I hear the anger, the self effacing.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Look, Daniil, I've been at the Hartman Institute long enough or too long to know that I can't lapse back into that Persona anymore. And I have to deal with the full complexity of our situation. And that includes, as hard as it is for me, it includes a self reckoning. What is it in our conduct, in what we have projected, especially the last few years, especially this government that has contributed, that has made it easier for those who seek to criminalize us. And that's where I fault us. I believe that these processes to some extent, not all of them, but to some extent are independent of what we do because it's about who we are, it's about negating who we are.

[Daniil Hartman]

And it's also a larger, it's a

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

larger political process and it's civilizational, seeing a crisis in Western civilization. And there are lots of elements to this, but one of the elements, and this is in our power to deal with. And something we talk about a lot at the Institute is the meaning of Zionism. Meaning of Zionism is that it gave Jews options. And this is one of those moments where part of the options that we need to assume responsibility for is self criticism.

[Daniil Hartman]

And so what should we do? How far are you willing to go without it being too self effacing?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Not far enough. Because it's.

[Daniil Hartman]

Tell me though what you will look at.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Look, my starting point is that nothing is going to change before we get rid of this government. So that's one piece of it. And part of me would like to end there, say, okay, we're going to do everything we can to throw the bums out.

[Daniil Hartman]

And then Eisenhut or Bennett will fix

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

it, they'll fix it. But it goes much deeper than that because what has opened up in Israeli society, Netanyahu was the Trigger. He was the enabler, but he exposed very deep and ugly trends in Israeli society, and they're not going away. Ben GVIR isn't going away. His supporters aren't going away. And the objective problems that we have, the moral crises, and of course, the most extreme expression of that, and really, in some ways, the easiest of the problems to deal with is to say, which is what Bennett says all the time, we're going to stop the settler violence. Now, yes, obviously, the fact that we have a government that is turning a blind eye to settlement violence is simply unspeakable. So in one sense, this government has made it easier for the next government, because the bar is so low that all they have to do is step in and just curb the most obscene expressions of what's wrong. But it goes deeper than that. It's the move toward annexation. It's the fact that. And this is, again, something that I've owned up to as a result of our conversations, Daniil, which is how painful it is to acknowledge that we didn't have a serious moral conversation here over the last few years, and I understand all the reasons for it, and we've talked about this in our podcast, that I have felt frozen much of the time, and I think Israeli society as a whole has felt frozen, either enraged or just traumatized. But in the end, that's not good enough. And so this is what I'm struggling with. I don't have answers, but where are you? First of all, I appreciate.

[Daniil Hartman]

I hear you and I appreciate the steps like the An Israel which speaks another language is an Israel that's trying to compete to win back hearts and minds, that we take responsibility for. Some of the people who look at us and say, ugh, now some of you are anti Semites and a plague on all your houses, but others may be, and just that it's not an easy thing to do. At this moment, I find myself moving even more radically in a way that the majority of Israeli society is not yet moving. I understand when you were speaking about Iran and when you said, you know, Israel has to decide what's the greatest danger right now. Is it Iran? Do we care about Iran or do we care about settlements? And I remember you saying this was a move for you. I remember hearing you work it out,

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

that this was something that the Israeli

[Daniil Hartman]

right had to decide, had to decide

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

they needed to restrain themselves on settlements to focus on.

[Daniil Hartman]

Like, when there is a grave danger, the rules have to change. I find I'm in now in a Deno Iranian moment, and that is a moment where I feel that we are in an existential danger to lose the world and to lose our moral direction. We're at a moment where we have to decide who we are. And for me, this is even more dangerous than Iran. Far more dangerous.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Losing world support.

[Daniil Hartman]

Both. Again, I see it like, who could be the next president of the United States? Literally, you just imagine what South African sanctions would look like for the state

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

of Israel and we could be heading in that direction like that.

[Daniil Hartman]

I see it and I see the alienation. It's not that they don't want to support, they don't respect us, but it's not just a public relations issue. I see inside an Israeli society that has to pick where it wants to go. And I'm afraid that the suggestions that you spoke about, which are things that I would have embraced a year ago as, okay, let's start. Are just not enough. I just not enough anymore. When the world accuses you of being genocidal baby killers and your response is, it's complex. And I'm going to do some moral conversation right now. It's like you're not even in the conversation. And I'm finding myself talking more and more about a need for us as a society to put the PS word back on the table. Palestinian state. And it's a very hard conversation for Israelis post October 7th because there's another

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

PS word which is postscript. The Palestinian state is kind of a postscript.

[Daniil Hartman]

Okay, fair enough. That was clever. I'm thinking of a conversation that I had with my granddaughter Mia at our Shabbos table a few weeks ago. She used to be very left wing, center left. And after October 7th, she just wants buffer zones. Like I speak to her about, I want a Palestinian say, what are you crazy? We need a buffer cell. She like, you want to move somebody closer to me. And that's why Israelis also have such difficulty even thinking about political solutions. Why they even want to continue a war in Lebanon, which is not going anywhere, but at least we'll have a buffer zone. Buffer zone is some psychedelic drug to help us live with our ptsd. It's like it just helps me get up in the morning. It dulls it a little bit. I don't feel that they're literally around the corner and any conversation which would bring people the danger closer. I know it's very hard for Israelis to even conceive, but I have yet to hear any serious, any alternative to a two state solution that deals with Israel's aspirations to be a Jewish democracy. And Deals with the human right challenges and the human rights of the Palestinian people. I'm not saying what that state should be. Could it be demilitarized? Could it have this rule? What exactly it is? And I'm not saying that I'm for creating it now because I don't know how to create it now with this current PA authority. There's nothing to talk about. I accept that. But I believe that we have to start talking about seriously the Israel we want. Like when we're looking at a world and we're saying, you know, it's complicated, we need. We're not even competing anymore, Yossi, we're talking to ourselves and I understand it.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Okay. Okay.

[Daniil Hartman]

Can I just move myself a little more or you had enough? Because I'm just getting warmed up. But if you have to come in. No, like, forget. I'm just like, I'm just like. I can't tell you how important this is to me. There is no future for Israel unless at some point there can't be a two state solution. No future. This is not Zionism. This is not Judaism. We didn't come home to occupy another people. We didn't come home to no normalize occupation of another people. At the end of the day, I don't know how to do it, but I want us to start saying, yes, this is what we want. It's clear. This is what. How I'm gonna. You have to understand that it's harder. You know, I listened to Naftali Bennett on the podcast Unholy. It's not in the ARC media community, but we could still say nice things about it. It's a very serious podcast also. And they interviewed Naftali Bennett and they asked him, so tell me, we're all wondering, are you just going to continue Netanyahu? Are you really going to be different? How different are you going to be? You know, and every politician in the world has to always say, I've never changed my mind. You know what I mean? No, I'm still right wing. And this and this and this. And I reject a Palestinian state. And he says, you know, he gave Micha Goodman's shrinking the conflict idea, which I really embraced years ago. I thought Micha was great. It was a wonderful way of bringing back a moral conversation to a country that wasn't ready yet. But I feel now it's just like the trains just left the station. We have to work at a different pace, you know, so Naftali Bennett saying, I can't do this, but I want to tell you, if Life for Palestinians in the west bank is now a three. I want to move it to be a seven. And I'm looking at the people who we've lost around the world and they're saying, really, this is how you understand? You're killing kids, you're committing genocide, you're creating apartheid and you're talking from three to seven. We have to say, just like we said in Lebanon, I don't want to occupy another people. I don't want to be a master of the Palestinian people. I'm not telling you what it should be, is it this plan or that plan? But I want to tell you, we Israelis, and we have to start, and I know we're going to pay a price for this, we have to start creating some of that conversation here in Israel. We're not going to be prepared for a world. And we're certainly not dealing with the profound alienation that people are looking and saying, you know, I know you're traumatized, but you're just coming up morally inadequate. Now I feel better. Yes. You'll see. And I apologize. I just.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

No, no, no.

[Daniil Hartman]

I had to get this off. It's a thing, you'll see. It's like sitting on me.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

We each have certain red button issues.

[Daniil Hartman]

This is my Iran.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Yossi, look, where we are is in a frontal confrontation, almost a train wreck between where much of the world is at, maybe most of the world, and where most of Israeli, the Israeli public is at. And right now there's an unbridgeable divide because what you're suggesting. And look, I've been there, I've been for a two state solution all these years. And I wish that we had a government that would least pay lip service to a two state solution, frankly, for political reasons, just simply to help us break out of the vise. And you're talking about it for very different reasons. You're talking about it for our own moral integrity. And post October 7th. I'm not there.

[Daniil Hartman]

I know.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

And Daniil, I can tell you, if I'm not there, most Israelis aren't there.

[Daniil Hartman]

One of the advantages that I have that my name is on this building is that I'm not running for politics. I don't get up in the morning. And I think part of that's the job of any moral individual, or a rabbi or a teacher, is I have to ask how do I speak in a way that people could hear? Because you don't want to just speak to yourself.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

It's interesting. It takes us. It takes us.

[Daniil Hartman]

I know they're not There, but it's precisely because they're not there. You'll see that I want to start talking about it more. And I want to say to Israelis, I'm with you, Danielle.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

This takes us to a conversation we had in the past about the prophet versus the teacher, the prophets versus the rabbis. For many years, we were on different sides of that. You were really in the tradition of your father and the tradition of the Hartman Institute, that Chazal, the rabbis were actually on a higher level than the prophets. And I deeply.

[Daniil Hartman]

You were a prophet.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

I rebelled against. I know that is one of the ways in which I'm a Hartman heretic. And today I am. Certainly in the context of this conversation, I'm where you were. I'm upholding the teacher as opposed to the prophet for a very practical reason. I believe that those of us who are engaged in a public conversation and helping to shape the Jewish public conversation can't go too far ahead of the people, because then you lose eye contact, you lose the conversation. And where most Israelis are at today, what you just said now would be considered, well, the way your granddaughter responded. Oh, that's insanity. There's two things, and one last thing, Daniil. We're about to have an election. And on the opposition, there's only one leader who would affirm what you've just said, and that's Yair Golan. And from what we see, he's going to get 10 seats, which is very nice for the left. You know, the Israeli left has been in really hard straits. He's resurrecting the left 10 seats. But look at where the overwhelming majority of the opposition is that I know.

[Daniil Hartman]

I'm not going to debate.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

But, Daniil, if you can have that conversation with the opposition, I'm with you.

[Daniil Hartman]

I accept the reality of where Israelis are. But a prophet wouldn't care if people can hear them or not. They wouldn't care. They would say, like Isaiah, chapter one, hear my words, you chieftains of Zdom. Like, you know, that's a great way to make friends and influence people,

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

you

[Daniil Hartman]

scumbags of the universe. Now come and listen to me as I try. So I'm with you. But I've been working these last three years in various degrees of success to try to ask how do we talk in a way that we deal with some people's fears. By the way, their fears are also stopping all moral conversation and with different audiences. You have to spend time. Part of the time is about talking about what do we want, not what we're going to implement. Now separating a conversation about our vision of the world as we want it to be, while recognizing that there's a gap between that and telling I'm not doing something tomorrow, I don't want a Palestinian state tomorrow. But creating that space, validating your credentials and recognition of that. I'm only interested in this if it could be a state that deals with the security needs and rights of all the people. There's ways of talking, but what we've done is we're not even trying anymore. We're not even trying anymore. We're not even doing what the rabbis did because the rabbis also pushed. We're just accepting mediocrity. And I appreciate that you're saying, daniil, I'm not there. But I think we have to bring back a moral conversation despite it all. My challenge to you, and I want to give you the last word, is I think we have to go higher and we have to again begin a conversation that ennobles Zionism, ennobles Zionism both in Israel and ennobles Zionism amongst our friends around the world, and then have the fight and the conversation about the gap between reality and aspirations. But the Jewish people that I've been always a part of never let reality define our aspirations. And right now our aspirations are too low. And don't be surprised if you're losing the world and you're just not there. It's time for us to get there.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Yossi Last thoughts so where I'm at and where I think part, maybe a good part of the Israeli public is at, is that after three years post October 7, many of us are ready to have a conversation about whether we should have the conversation now. That's not enough for you, and I understand that's not enough for the world. But realistically, that's where I think the part of the Israeli public that once was part of a moral conversation and maybe still wants to be, but can't, can be moved. And the way to move them for me, and I think for Israelis in this camp that I've just invented, is, is not moral appeals, but very practical appeals. And that's the part of what you're saying that appeals to me, which is look at the situation we're in. We may be five minutes away from a major break with the international community, the kind of break that we haven't experienced yet. And coming from that place of saying what is in Israel's interests now, that's different. That's not the moral, the passionate moral conversation. It could lead to that. That's a component of it. But how do we jumpstart that? That's, I think the best that I feel I can do and that many other Israelis can do.

[Daniil Hartman]

Yossi, it's a pleasure being with you.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Great to be with you.

[Daniil Hartman]

Thank you.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

For heaven's sake. As a product of the Shalom Hartman Institute and ARC Media, it is produced by me, Daniel Goodman with help from Miriam Jacobs, Adar Taylor Schechter and Aviva Kat Manore and studio support from Go Live Media. Our episode was edited by Seth Stein, Natal Friedman is our executive producer and our music was composed by Yuval Sama. Past episodes can be [e-mail] where you can explore more of Arc Media's podcasts. You can watch the video versions of our episodes on our YouTube channel, follow the YouTube link in the show Notes. Also, to receive updates on new episodes, please follow the link to arcmedia.org and subscribe to Arc Media's weekly newsletter. For more ideas from the Shalom Hartman Institute, visit our [e-mail].