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- [00:00]
Daniel Goodman
Foreign
- [00:04]
Podcast Announcer
you are listening to an art media podcast.
- [00:11]
Daniel Goodman
Hi. For heaven's sake. Listeners, in light of Naftali Bennett and Yair Lapid recently announcing the launch of a unified party for the Knesset elections, we are re releasing our episode Bennett 2026, recorded on January 6, 2026. Danil and Yossi will be back with a new episode next week. We hope you enjoy.
- [00:31]
Daniil Hartman
Bennett has an awakening in which he says, what is this? What's the greatest danger? Is the greatest danger facing Israel, our borders? Or is it the hatred and the divisiveness that's coming from inside?
- [00:43]
Yossi Klein Halevi
This election is going to be fought on basically one issue. Do we want an Israel? That's October 6th or October 8th? October 6th, the year leading up to October 7th, we were tearing each other apart. October 8th, we instantly pivoted to a level of national unity that we've rarely seen in this country. Bennett is the prime minister of October 8. Netanyahu is the prime minister of October 6. And that's what the election's about.
- [01:17]
Daniil Hartman
Foreign. This is Daniil Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi from the Shalom Hartman Institute. And this is our podcast, for heaven's sake, from the Hartman Institute and in collaboration with ARC Media. Our theme for today is Bennett 2026. Naftali Bennett, the only individual who is running a party in the polls that competes with the Likud, the only potential candidate for prime minister who comes close to popularity to Netanyahu, and most importantly, the only one who it seems, according to every single poll, is going to win the election. Currently, his coalition is a coalition of 59 seats, not including the Israeli Arab parties. And Netanyahu has maxed out at 51 currently. And to win in a stable coalition, reminding people, you need 61. So he's not far away. So there's something about him that is intriguing to the Israeli electorate. There's something about him that they feel good about. Our podcast today is to try to understand, who is this man? Who is he? Who is he? From the perspective you and I, as the average Israeli citizen, the person who's watching and trying to understand, what is it that we hear from him? What comes to mind? What are his policies? Is this the good news? Is this bad news? Can he lead us in the future? Our podcast really is who is this man? Now, this man historically is a complicated guy. His parents made aliyah from America and he grew up here, spent a number of years outside of Israel. So he has a world Jewish experience.
- [03:04]
Yossi Klein Halevi
He went to a Jewish school in
- [03:06]
Daniil Hartman
New York, didn't He in Montreal, also in New York. Yes, in Teaneck, different places that his family moved during their careers in what's known as Shlichut, you know, part of their work. He was in the most elite military force in the Israeli army, Sayeret Matkal. You don't get into that if you're a lightweight. By the way, Netanyahu was in the same unit, but his politically very successful lawyer, very, very successful business person, multimillionaire, ran things. But most importantly, when he entered into Israeli politics, he firmly, firmly on the right. He was Netanyahu's chief of staff. He was the director of what's known in Hebrew as Moetzet Yesha, the Council of Judea and Samaria Settlements. In other words, he was at the front of representing settler interests.
- [03:59]
Yossi Klein Halevi
And as he, even though, you know, he himself did not live in a settler.
- [04:02]
Daniil Hartman
That's correct. He never, that was, that's, that was an interesting. He grew up in the religious Zionist community, but his political identity was, vote for me, I'll join the Likud, but I'll watch them from the right. I'll be more pure. Because everybody on the right, including most settlers, know they can't trust Netanyahu. Because Netanyahu, as we've mentioned many times, it's not a firm ideology. He's going to assess what he thinks Israel's interests are going to be. And if I have to accept the Trump peace plan, if I have to accept the why, I'll compromise, I'll dismantle settlements. I don't even vote against the disengage. I think he supported this engagement in 2025. Sure, he 2005. So the right wing always were uncomfortable with him because he's not an ideologue. Bennett was the ideologue until 2021, where he's forming his own party. And it's interesting, the parties that he formed were a breakoff from the religious Zionist community. Joins with Ayala Shakaed, a very, very compelling right wing but secular individual. And he starts reaching out to a broader Israeli audience. But he's firmly in the right. And then he has an awakening in 2021. Actually, before that awakening in 2021, it's important to recognize that even under the Netanyahu government, when he was Minister of Diaspora affairs or he was Minister of Education, he had political right wing positions on Israel's security, but he was a very liberal person. He visits Conservative synagogues, which was like a big deal. He says, what do you mean? Of course I'm going to go visit you know, I'm serving the Diaspora. There was a de. He doesn't have this notion that because I know for certain what Israel should do in Judea and Samaria, that I know for certain what authentic Judaism is. In other words, his position on Judea and Samaria, I think is more security based than this notion of the purity and sanctity of the land of Israel. And then he has an awakening in 2021. Here it is, this right wing but liberal figure in 2021, after three rounds of elections, of literally toxic classic Netanyahu election campaigns, the countries act. Literally everybody is a traitor, everybody is dangerous. There's a toxicity taking over the country. And Bennett has an awakening in which he says, what is this? What's the greatest danger? Is the greatest danger facing Israel, our borders? Or is it the hatred and the divisiveness that's coming from inside? And he breaks with his right wing ideology because he sees that Netanyahu can't form a coalition even if he joins Netanyahu, and he could form one with Yair Lapid and he with Yair Lapid and with Benny Gantz and members of the labor and even Meretz and ultimately even Mansoor Abbas, he creates the most diverse coalition.
- [06:59]
Yossi Klein Halevi
He becomes the great unifier, the great unifier of the politics.
- [07:03]
Daniil Hartman
And that changes him because he begins to see, not that he stops being the right winger and that's what we're going to have to talk about, but he sees a larger picture of Israeli society, of its security interests, of its existential challenges. And from being focused exclusively on foreign policy, he tries to be a healer. His whole Persona changes. And in one of his most remarkable statements, he says, I'm sitting in coalition with people who used to be my enemies. I saw them as my enemies. He said, I realized they love Israel as much as I do. They're as good Zionists as I am. And even says about the Ram Party, Mansoor Abbas, he says he's a great coalition partner, he's a loyal member. So that transition was mind blowing. It blew the minds of all of his. He had seven seats in his party, three of them left him, bringing down the coalition and. And now he's back. So this is just framing the conversation. And let's start. When you hear the name Naftali Bennett, what comes to mind?
- [08:14]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Well, it's interesting because the words that come to mind are really the opposite of what I once would have used to respond to that question. I think of him as the great healer and the national unifier. And he's already done it. You know, when you compare the two governments we've had over the last four years, we've had three years of Netanyahu and the most homogeneous government in Israel's history. Bennett was the most heterogeneous in Israel's history, not only bringing together virtually the full political spectrum within Jewish Israel, but then of course, including an Arab party as well. So he's the healer, the unifier. Very, very different from the guy I met maybe 10 years ago. I met Bennett only once. I was moderating a panel and he was representing the right and singularly unimpressive. He was a rank and file ideologue. There was nothing memorable that he said that night. Almost as soon as the panel was over, I forgot whatever it was, there
- [09:25]
Daniil Hartman
was no room for complexity.
- [09:26]
Yossi Klein Halevi
No, not at all, not at all.
- [09:28]
Daniil Hartman
No nuance. No, not at all.
- [09:30]
Yossi Klein Halevi
And I remember there was a Bedouin woman. This I do remember, actually. This is interesting. It's a Bedouin woman on the panel. And I asked her about her Israeli identity and she said, I want to be an Israeli, but they don't let me. So I turned to Bennett and I said, is she part of Israel for you? And he said, if she wants to be part of Israel, she is part of Israel. That was interesting. That was something. It was a little bit of a window to the guy who later forms an alliance with the Arab party that interestingly represents the Bedouin. But generally the Bennett that we knew. Think about the people he chose to fill his list. The most unimpressive list of people, aside from this Likud, the worst list that I can think of in Israeli politics. And people who betrayed him, betrayed the country. So unimpressive. And yet here's Bennett today, this transformed figure. So what does that tell us? What does that tell us about. Do circumstances create the leader? This guy is a bit of an enigma. What do you think of Bennett? What are the first words that come to my mind?
- [10:46]
Daniil Hartman
The first word that comes to my mind is decency. He's a decent man. I'm on the political center left and I know that in this election I'm going to vote for a party that I believe most represents my values. And it doesn't matter because my particular politics aren't significant. I see myself on the center left, but I know that in voting for this center left party, I know I'm voting for Bennett. It's a coalition of one 20 seat party or 20x and a whole bunch of other. What's the math? 64 other 10 seat parties, more or less 8 to 10 seat parties. So I'm going to vote for one of those ten seat parties. You know, those parties are Lieberman, Yair Lapid, Eisenkot and Yair Golan. Those four together make up the other part of it. And I know that as a left wing person, I'm voting for a right wing per. I'm voting for him, but I don't want to do it directly because I want to shape his coalition. But the reason why I'm not hesitant, I know that the people I'm voting for aren't really viable candidates for Prime Minister, not for the country. And every single poll says so. I know I'm voting for him. And that. Which gives me a little comfort because the first thing I think about, and I've mentioned this many times, this is a decent man. And at the end, I'm always aware of the fact. I wrote a book called Putting God Second how to Save Religion from Itself. One of the things I've experienced and watched throughout my life, how ideologies override people's decency, how it creates a framework whereby your core moral instincts get silenced. It could be faith in God. It could be loyal to the country, to the party, to a person, to a group, that there's somehow your moral impulse to expand your responsibilities gets shrunk.
- [12:41]
Yossi Klein Halevi
They get you wrong.
- [12:42]
Daniil Hartman
And ideologues do that. And there was always a decency on him, on religious pluralism. When he was Minister of Education, he accepted every different flavor and opinion. So I saw that beforehand. But there's ideologues. And what happened on the 21st is that I feel his decency won. And that's why the first thing I see is his decency. And it gives me a lot of hope.
- [13:07]
Yossi Klein Halevi
So it's interesting because the way in which we experience his decency is his willingness to expand the parameters of his political alliances, not just.
- [13:19]
Daniil Hartman
It's a story that I've said here on this podcast, the way he relates to people. He just had a big press conference just yesterday in which he announced his. Instead of the law for draft dodging, this was a law which is gonna protect those who serve in the army. And you just look at the way he talks.
- [13:35]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Yeah.
- [13:36]
Daniil Hartman
So first of all, he's more comfortable in his body right now, but he sees people. He has one of his party leaders is right there and his wife's giving birth to their first child in Tel Aviv. And in front of the whole country says, go, what are you doing here? The story that I've told over and over and over again. And I'll keep on telling it because it's so remarkable how as prime minister, he goes to a family whose son was killed in Gaza, knowing fully well that he's going to be attacked by this family because it's a right wing Likud family for betraying the right and accusing him of killing their son. Doesn't matter whether he went and he
- [14:12]
Yossi Klein Halevi
took it and he took it.
- [14:13]
Daniil Hartman
And when he was asked that, and when he was asked, he says, a gold star family has a right to tell me anything and my job is to listen.
- [14:24]
Yossi Klein Halevi
So not only did Netanyahu not go to visit families who had lost their sons in combat, who his office investigated and found that they had the wrong politics. But just the other day there was a ceremony in the Knesset. Did you see this?
- [14:42]
Daniil Hartman
No, I missed it.
- [14:43]
Yossi Klein Halevi
A ceremony in the Knesset to honor the families of the fallen. They did not invite those who were publicly identified with the opposition. And I saw one of the bereaved fathers on TV saying, you know something? I'm not upset with them. I don't waste my energy being upset with them. I have too much contempt for them to be upset.
- [15:07]
Daniil Hartman
So this basically is. Compare that, compare that. It's just remarkable. And in Israeli politics, where you lose. That's why this is a decency.
- [15:14]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Well, it's a great point.
- [15:15]
Daniil Hartman
And decency, by the way, now we're coming to the second question, because decency is in your interpersonal relationships, but it also opens you up. You don't look in the horizon and see your own belly button. Decent people have a certain amount of humility. They could accept that somebody else has value and truth. So it affects your interpersonal, but it also affects policy. So. But now, I'm sorry, No, I just
- [15:37]
Yossi Klein Halevi
wanted to go back to something you had said. Almost as an aside, I think it says something incredibly interesting about Israel today, which is that no matter who you vote for, you're actually voting for a right wing prime minister.
- [15:50]
Daniil Hartman
That's correct.
- [15:52]
Yossi Klein Halevi
And that tells us how deeply Israel has been transformed. By October 7, there is really no effective option except to vote for either a decent right wing prime minister or an indecent.
- [16:09]
Daniil Hartman
That's correct.
- [16:10]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Right wing prime minister.
- [16:10]
Daniil Hartman
That's correct. It's true. Absolutely true. So now let's go to the second stage, which is now, okay, we gave our first feeling. Healer, unifier. Decent. By the way, that's not a bad CV right there, you know, that's a Dayenu cv. As you listen to him talking and campaigning, especially over the last year or two, as he's emerging and developing his next run. What's the essence of his political message? Positive negatives? What are his policies?
- [16:41]
Yossi Klein Halevi
I think what he's really saying to us is I'm the old right, the old decent right. You think of Menachem Begin, Yitzhak Shamir, Sharon, Ariel Sharon. There was a sense that you could trust these people. You knew that they would put the country's interests before their own. And Netanyahu broke that tradition. So that's one thing. Another thing, I.
- [17:05]
Daniil Hartman
Could we stop there a second? Because that's a big thing. Just elaborate on it. But he sees himself as politics as
- [17:12]
Yossi Klein Halevi
service, politics as service, which also makes him predisposed to national unity. Yitzhak Shamir formed two national unity governments. Interesting. And the second national unity government that he formed, this was in the 1980s. He actually had a majority together with the ultra orthodox parties. And he wouldn't do it. He brought in labor instead. Shimon James Peres. He brought in no less, as far
- [17:37]
Daniil Hartman
from as far as you could go.
- [17:40]
Yossi Klein Halevi
And he brought him in.
- [17:40]
Daniil Hartman
And they worked well together, didn't they?
- [17:42]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Up until he stabbed him in the
- [17:44]
Daniil Hartman
back, as the Laborites would tend to do.
- [17:46]
Yossi Klein Halevi
That's right. And so Bennett is a throwback to the old right. He's principled, he's ideologically principled. He's committed to a right wing platform. But this is another interesting facet here, which is that in the policies that he's laying out, and we saw this in his government in 2021.
- [18:07]
Daniil Hartman
Was it 2021? Yes.
- [18:09]
Yossi Klein Halevi
He would be right wing only as far as his center and left coalition partners could bear. He wasn't right wing on settlements, he was right wing on security.
- [18:24]
Daniil Hartman
Right. He didn't annex.
- [18:25]
Yossi Klein Halevi
He didn't annex anything.
- [18:27]
Daniil Hartman
Right.
- [18:27]
Yossi Klein Halevi
And he knew that he could carry the government on hard line security policies. And I think that that's what he's projecting now. He said, of course, if there's an opportunity to stop the Iranian nuclear program, of course I'll do it and I'll be able to carry the center and the left with me. But I'm not going to break national unity by going one right wing step too far right.
- [18:53]
Daniil Hartman
So it's interesting. It's very hard to know exactly what he stands for. And I'm following very carefully. And they are being very careful not to say anything that's going to aggravate not the coalition of partners who are going to join him, but the coalition of voters who are voting for him right now.
- [19:13]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Yes. He, he's also trying to bring in more right wingers, more right winger.
- [19:18]
Daniil Hartman
If you look at his coalition, the people who are voting for him now self identify 2/3 as right wing and a third as center or left. Those are the people who say, if you'll vote for him, how do you define yourself? But if you look at the people where they voted in the last election, 60% of his voters were either Benny Gantz or Yair Lapid voters, which is
- [19:45]
Yossi Klein Halevi
to say center, center right.
- [19:47]
Daniil Hartman
I don't know if that's center right. It was Gantz center. You look at us, those are center, strong center. I wouldn't call them center right like they were agnostic, like, thank. There was no peace process that they had to vote on. But Yair Lapid, Yair Lapid is for this two state solution. I think even Benny Gantz would be for a two state solution if pushed to articulate an opinion. So his core voters, his majority of his voters come from the center. He has some people on the left, like me, center left, who I won't vote for him, but I'm very happy.
- [20:21]
Yossi Klein Halevi
You're an admire.
- [20:22]
Daniil Hartman
I'm an admirer. And I know in essence that his coalition at the end is going to be. I'm going to be in it. And he has about 10% of Netanyahu voters. He's not tremendously successful in moving. Now, if you try to run a party which has made 10% on the right, 60% on the center, 10% on the left, like, what do you do? And he knows that he is 59 and to win the next election, he's going to have to move three or four more people from the Likud Party. And he's hoping the Likud Party's going to do a few things. He hopes they'll pass a draft exemption law for the Haredim. He hopes they'll do something where that'll boost his numbers. That'll boost his numbers. And he's also fighting against the Miluimnik Party, the Reservist Party, because so now he's. He wants to personify the Reservist. So you see him only speaking out publicly about issues at the core of the consensus of Israeli society. Now, the consensus issues for his party. So what are they? They'll be the draft issue. There'll be economics. They'll be, yes, we have to continue to destroy Hamas. We're not going to be soft on Hamas. But what else he's not really saying. And he's very careful not to talk about it. So I'm left with his decency and left with tremendous vagueness.
- [21:41]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Look, Bennett has two problems. One is that in almost every poll, he's just shy of the form of government. I've seen some polls that place him at 60. Still not good enough.
- [21:55]
Daniil Hartman
Now it's 59. 60. It's closer to 69. Yeah. He's up from 58, by the way.
- [21:59]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Okay. So.
- [22:00]
Daniil Hartman
But that's the other coalition partners, not necessarily him, by the way. The other ones are getting a little stronger sometimes.
- [22:06]
Yossi Klein Halevi
So the second problem that he has is, is with the community that should be most enthusiastic about him, which are the religious Zionists that Bennett comes from. The religious Zionist community. He was the first prime minister to wear a kippah, and yet they hate him. I saw a poll just the other day, close to 80% of religious Zionists prefer Netanyahu to Bennett.
- [22:34]
Daniil Hartman
Wow.
- [22:35]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Now, I think that they still have not forgiven him for forming a government with the center and the left, and most of all with an Arab party.
- [22:46]
Daniil Hartman
Yeah. That's his original sin. Yes.
- [22:47]
Yossi Klein Halevi
And he had promised. You remember, he appeared on TV and
- [22:50]
Daniil Hartman
he said, I'll sign. He had a piece of paper. He says, I said, I'll sign right now.
- [22:54]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Right now, in front of the whole country. I pledge that I will not sit with Mansoor Abbas.
- [22:59]
Daniil Hartman
Yes. And he challenges Bibi, and Bibi won't sign,
- [23:07]
Yossi Klein Halevi
And they won't forget that. As if Netanyahu is the upholder of the golden rule. But I think that the betrayal struck the religious Zionist community so hard because he was one of them. Netanyahu was never one of them. And he lied to them, and they can't forgive that. And so where are those missing seats going to come from? It's not going to come from the religious Zionist community. He has to move two seats from
- [23:36]
Daniil Hartman
the Likud, from the right, from the right. He has to move them from the Likud. And so he's trying to do that, but that creates a very strange feeling that I like him, but I feel he's not talking to me. He's, like, taking me for granted. He has me because where else am I gonna go? You know? So he has me. So anything he's doing is geared to this more right wing. And then you wonder, is that the true Bennett? Is that not the true Bennett? So there's this uncertainty there, but he
- [24:00]
Yossi Klein Halevi
also knows that we're so to replace Netanyahu. That will forgive him.
- [24:06]
Daniil Hartman
That's right. Now, one of the key things about the essence of his political message if we delve into it more deeply. And this was part of his coalition in the past and he's articulated this again. And that is this notion that 80% of Israeli society agrees on 80% of the issues.
- [24:22]
Yossi Klein Halevi
This is Mika Goodman's formulation.
- [24:24]
Daniil Hartman
That's his formulation. And Mika Goodman, by the way, is one of his rabbis, is very, very close to him, has a very significant relationship and influence on him. And that becomes also, by the way, Rivon Harivi. How would you say the Rivon Hari Fourth Quarter. The Fourth Quarter Party, which hasn't yet been polled but is emerging and they're planning on running.
- [24:42]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Are they planning on running?
- [24:43]
Daniil Hartman
Oh, yes, unless the polls show they don't have a chance and then they'll run and join somebody and that's a
- [24:47]
Yossi Klein Halevi
party that would be running on national coexistence.
- [24:51]
Daniil Hartman
National coexistence. Their principle is the 80, 20. That's their issue. And the challenges of that is that the 20% are some of the most essential issues that we have to deal with. But I think part of what Bennett is, his cor message to the people is a unity is not a structural issue. Unity is an existential issue. 2 Service is an existential issue. That there are people in the government who will wake up in the morning and ask what do the people need? And who will be ministers of ministries, which they're competent to run and there's a country to run. It's true, we have great ideological issues. So that's the 20%. So what's your position on state, religion? I don't know if I'm going rock the boat. There you have Lieberman there you have Lapid much more clearly and as well as Yair Golan.
- [25:41]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Look, on religion and state, I think that they all agree that the top priority is going to be to stop the flow of money to the ultra orthodox institutions.
- [25:51]
Daniil Hartman
But the issues of religion and to
- [25:52]
Yossi Klein Halevi
try to draft as many as possible into the army.
- [25:54]
Daniil Hartman
But that's only one, I think the
- [25:57]
Yossi Klein Halevi
rest of it, if they succeed in.
- [25:59]
Daniil Hartman
No, but that's not a state and religion issue. State and religion issues. But again, we know he was pushing for a serious compromise on the Kotel. So there's interesting things, but we don't know what. Like these 20% are some of the most important issues. So he's trying to tell the country, we'll get to those 20, maybe in the next election. We need his core policies for this election. Let's heal, let's rerun the country. Let's get people trusting government institutions again. Lets people stop fighting with each other. And once we have a healthier foundation, maybe then we can tackle some of the issues.
- [26:35]
Yossi Klein Halevi
In other words, that's his policies. Yes, and I think that really what he's saying is there's only one issue that I'm prepared to shatter the social peace and that's in pushing the ultra orthodox out of this current destructive relationship with the state. And that's going to be brutal because the ultra orthodox are going to shut down the country.
- [26:58]
Daniil Hartman
People who are intelligent on this issue, don't try to draft ultra orthodox.
- [27:04]
Yossi Klein Halevi
No, no, he's going to shut the money.
- [27:07]
Daniil Hartman
This is what he said, he spoke about in his recent press conference, about reversing the pyramid, taking the tens of billions that are going to those who don't serve and starting to give it to those who serve and a whole package of benefits to anybody who serves in miloim, et cetera. Here he found his consensus issue and it has some ideology, but the deeper ideology of Bennett is still not clear. Which leads us to our last question. Do you think he has what it think he's going to be a bracha? Is it going to be a blessing? Is it going to be a good. Is it going to do what it needs to do?
- [27:39]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Look, we know him through an all too brief period as Prime Minister. It was one of the best years politically that I remember that I've experienced here.
- [27:51]
Daniil Hartman
Me too, by the way. I had that same feeling.
- [27:53]
Yossi Klein Halevi
It was extraordinary. And I remember as we were getting close to his government falling apart and it was becoming increasingly clear, I remember having this deep sense of mourning, like what's going to happen next to this country? Well, we now know. And so, yeah, I think he can do what his limited agenda intends to do. And that limited agenda is so far reaching in terms of where we are now that who needs more than that right now?
- [28:24]
Daniil Hartman
See, I agree with you with a caveat that when it comes to what Israelis need, I think he's right, especially we're coming after years of war to understand that maybe we have to spend more of our focus on the inner divisiveness, that the dangers of that, it's exhausting the hatred, it's just too much. And maybe he's understanding that and in that sense it will be a huge blessing.
- [28:51]
Yossi Klein Halevi
And the fact that he's coming from the right, it helps.
- [28:55]
Daniil Hartman
Yes.
- [28:55]
Yossi Klein Halevi
The healing has to come, has to
- [28:57]
Daniil Hartman
come from the right place.
- [28:58]
Yossi Klein Halevi
That's broken us.
- [28:59]
Daniil Hartman
Interesting, interesting. And in any event, since the country has moved so much to the right, the only prime minister that's right. The only one who could be a prime minister in a democracy in Israel has to have right wing credentials. The serious question that I have is that what's going to happen when we don't get to pick the agenda? So do I trust him to deal with Iran or Hamas or Hezbollah? Absolutely. Because he's going to hire also he's going to appoint a serious minister of defense who's allowed to have an opinion, who's not going to be fired because he disagrees with you. We're not going to have political appointments throughout the military establishment and the defense establishment.
- [29:35]
Yossi Klein Halevi
We're going to have serious people.
- [29:36]
Daniil Hartman
And I think he's proven that he has what it takes.
- [29:39]
Podcast Announcer
Absolutely.
- [29:39]
Daniil Hartman
He has the gravitas. My big fear though is what happens when certain political issues are going to be on a timetable that aren't convenient for Israeli society. What happens when Trump and MBS get together and say, okay, we're moving. By the time of the election, stage two of Gaza will move forward and they're going to be getting closer to stage three or clause 20, a window or a pathway towards Palestinian statehood? There'll be pressure. Is he going to have the ability to respond and innovate and lead?
- [30:14]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Now I'll say it even more sharply. Is he capable of doing what Netanyahu did in 2010 and say the words a two state solution? That's all.
- [30:23]
Daniil Hartman
Just say it in some form. Now what does it too mean?
- [30:26]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Is he too much of a purist?
- [30:28]
Daniil Hartman
That's the question.
- [30:28]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Is he too sincere?
- [30:30]
Daniil Hartman
That's the question. Like we saw that he saw something. That's where decency, I trust, like you're gonna look at it and you're gonna say fair enough. What do we mean? Like he's gonna look at it. Like there'll be an open mindedness. Can Naftali Bennett imagine some form of a something that you could put the name Palestinian state on? It might be demilitarized and de radicalized and it might only be, let's put it might only be in area A and B following the Trump. Will he show some flexibility there? The same flexibility that he showed that enabled him to sit with Mansur Abbas, to allocate huge amounts of money to recognize that we have to raise the rights and quality of life of Israeli Arab Palestinians. His ability to sit with the far left is there. It's like one more mountain. Now it's going to be a move. Is he going to have that ability on some of those 20%? Is he going to be able to go beyond consensus. Is his decency going to enable him to put forth new thought processes about some of the issues?
- [31:33]
Yossi Klein Halevi
It's a very important question.
- [31:34]
Daniil Hartman
This is the question, because the 80%, you could pick the issues, some of the 20% are going to hit you in the face and then you're going to have to lead and innovate.
- [31:43]
Yossi Klein Halevi
You know, while you were talking, I was thinking about the four Likud Prime Ministers that we've had. That's all. In the country's nearly 80 years, we've had a total of four Likud prime ministers. And three of the four showed remarkable flexibility over core issues. Menachem Begin withdrew from Sinai. Ariel Sharon withdrew from Gaza. Netanyahu withdrew from most of Hebron and northern Samaria. And northern Samaria and supported a two state solution. The only purest was Shamir. Was Shamir interesting. And so to frame the question in very practical terms, is he going to be a right wing prime minister in the mode of three out of the four or of Shamir?
- [32:31]
Daniil Hartman
We don't know, do we? Last thoughts.
- [32:35]
Yossi Klein Halevi
You know, Daniil, I am so desperate to get rid of Netanyahu that really, you should have spoken about this in our podcast. I know.
- [32:44]
Daniil Hartman
Here it is. You have this huge audience.
- [32:46]
Yossi Klein Halevi
I know, Daniil, I don't want to impose my opinion on people.
- [32:49]
Daniil Hartman
You're such a tyou. But that's what I love about you, your core humility.
- [32:54]
Yossi Klein Halevi
I know what you mean. I feel the same way about me. I mean, at this point, I would accept Herbert Hoover as the Prime Minister of Israel, almost anyone, instead of this guy. And so it doesn't say much for Bennett. It's not a great testimony to Bennett's leadership that I'm so desperate for him to be prime minister. But beyond that desperation, I'm actually anticipating Prime Minister Bennett returning. I'm looking forward to it because what this country needs more than anything else is healing. And we've said this before on this podcast, that this election is going to be fought on basically one issue. Do we want an Israel? That's October 6th or October 8th? October 6th, the year leading up to October 7th, we were tearing each other apart. October 8th, we instantly pivoted to a level of national unity that we've rarely seen in this country. And we went from the lowest point of schism to one of the peak moments of unity. Bennett is the prime minister of October 8. Netanyahu is the prime minister of October 6. And that's what the election's about.
- [34:08]
Daniil Hartman
When I think forward, I'm also Excited. But for me, one of the issues I'm going to be looking at are who's on his list. See, when you build a coalition of Bennett together with Lieberman, Eisenkot, Lapid and Golan, each one of those groups are going to have members of Knesset who represent certain visions that I'm closer to. Who's he going to pick? If he has 21, 22 seats, it's a lot of seats. The last time he didn't pick well, is he going to pick people who represent his vision? Yeah, because his vision is a vision of a right wing ideology with decency and some flexibility. We don't know where, but he's going to have to find a lot of people who share that. The last time it was very hard, they couldn't pivot with him. So it'll be really interesting to see. Is he going to pick people that represent his voters? If 60% come from the center, are you going to pick 60% of your 22, 25 seats from the center or are you going to load it up from the right, knowing that you're getting the center from the other parties? So a lot of that, that story we don't know yet, but it's a nice thing to say. You know, we have a candidate who is leading in the polls, who is a healer, is a unifier and is decent and maybe, maybe that's enough. Yossi, it was a pleasure talking with you.
- [35:31]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Great talking today.
- [35:34]
Daniel Goodman
What if prayer doesn't work? This question strikes us as a distinctly modern one, an outgrowth of the slow disenchantment of the world. But in truth, the question is an old one and one given space to breathe.
- [35:48]
Podcast Announcer
Here from the Shalom Hartman Institute, Thoughts and Prayers is an award winning podcast that explores what Jewish prayer means and why it still matters. Join host Rabbi Jessica Fisher as she weaves together stories, classic texts and conversations with leading rabbis and thinkers like Yossi
- [36:03]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Klein, Halevi, Judya Sarah is about the democratization of the spiritual of revelation.
- [36:09]
Podcast Announcer
Rabbi Loren Holtzblatt. I was representing second gentleman Emhoff as his rabbi on that stage.
- [36:14]
Yossi Klein Halevi
What you had in that moment was
- [36:16]
Podcast Announcer
the pluralism of America. And Rabbi Josh Warshavski.
- [36:20]
Daniil Hartman
Prayer helps me be the best version of myself. It helps me figure out what do I need in my spiritual backpack.
- [36:26]
Podcast Announcer
Thoughts and prayers inspiring new connections to Jewish prayer in a changing world. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts, here are some other things that are happening at the Shalom Hartman Institute. We're honored to announce that two Hartman podcasts have won awards from the Religion Communicators Council Thoughts and Prayers, our limited podcast series exploring the tensions, questions and contradictions at the heart of Jewish prayer won Best in Class, the top Award for Podcasts and the For Heaven's Sake episode the Season of Reckoning won Best Single Work for Podcasts. Mazal Tov to the Teams of Thoughts and Prayers and For Heaven's Sake. Listen now wherever you get your podcast.
- [37:03]
Daniel Goodman
For Heaven's Sake is a product of the Shalom Hartman Institute and ARC Media. It is produced by me, Daniel Goodman, with help from Miriam Jacobs, Adar Taylor Schechter and Aviva Kat Manore, and studio support from Go Live Media. Our episode was edited by Seth Stein, Nital Friedman is our executive producer, and our music was composed by Yuval Sama. Past episodes can be found@arcmedia.org where you can explore more of Arc Media's podcasts. You can watch the video versions of our episodes on our YouTube channel. Follow the YouTube link in the Show Notes. Also, to receive updates on new episodes, please follow the link to arcmedia.org and subscribe to Arc Media's weekly newsletter. For more ideas from the Shalom Hartman Institute, visit our website@shalomhartman.org.