Podcast Summary: For Heaven’s Sake

Episode: The Battle Over the Word Zionism
Date: April 7, 2026
Hosts: Donniel Hartman (B), Yossi Klein Halevi (A)
Presented by: Shalom Hartman Institute & Ark Media

Overview:

This episode delves into the fraught and evolving meaning of "Zionism" within the Jewish community, especially against the backdrop of contemporary crises facing Israel. Donniel and Yossi explore whether the term has become more of a burden than a rallying point and consider if, how, and why the concept should be preserved or reimagined. They reflect on its history, shifting interpretations, and the recent tendency to distance from the term—both in Israel and the diaspora.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Current Context: The Multiple Wars Facing Israel

• [00:36] The episode opens with reflections on the ongoing war with Iran and the existential threats Israel faces—not only militarily but also in the realm of political and intellectual legitimacy.
• Donniel describes a proposal for a (fictional) Islamabad Agreement, highlighting the uncertainty and anxiety pervading Israeli society.
• Introduction to the “parallel war”: The delegitimization of Zionism and Israel in public discourse, which may be “far more precarious than missiles.”

2. What Does Zionism Mean? Then and Now

• [06:10] Yossi recounts the term’s changing significance for Israelis in the 1970s—once an object of ridicule when the state felt secure post-1967 (“Altida Bertzionut”—don’t talk nonsense ideology).
• [08:00] Foundational definition: “The return of the Jewish people to sovereignty and power” and the intuition that “the most hated people in the world should not also be the most powerless.”

  “If you have to sum up Herzl on one foot, that's it.” —Yossi [08:56]

• The Uganda debate: Yossi recounts Herzl’s proposal to accept a British offer of Uganda as a temporary refuge, and the near-collapse of the Zionist movement over the prioritization of return versus mere refuge.

  "We would rather face the violence than to do violence to the goal of Zionism, which is the return to the land of Israel." —Yossi [11:41]

• Zionism as both a return to land and a return to the family of nations—a bid to “bring the Jewish people back to humanity.” The irony of Zionism being cast as a pariah movement is not lost on the hosts.

3. Diverging Diaspora and Israeli Understandings

• Donniel draws a distinction between Israel-centric and diaspora-centric definitions of Zionism:
  • In Israel: Zionism centers on asserting the right to exist amid ongoing existential threats.
  • In the diaspora: The term, especially in North America, has shifted to mean that “my Jewish identity is inherently interconnected with the state of Israel” (identity Zionism or Zionism of meaning).
  • [14:30] Donniel:

    “Zionism wasn't just a political movement… It was an ideology making a claim...that the Jewish people have that right too.”

  • [21:19] Donniel:

    "To say I am a Zionist is to say that Israel is essential to who I am as a Jew."

4. The Polls & Toxicity of Terminology

• Reference to JFNA poll: only about 1/3 of North American Jews call themselves Zionists, even though 88% support Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state ([22:12]).
• Yossi: Many Jews avoid the term ‘Zionism’ due to its negative connotations or toxicity, especially pronounced among Arab Israelis ([24:00]).

5. Global Perceptions: Settler Colonialism and Misunderstandings

• Yossi ([25:20]): The uniqueness of Zionism is often misunderstood. It’s “a bizarre story”—the Jewish return after 2,000 years doesn’t fit standard narratives and is therefore recast using familiar frameworks:
  • Evangelicals: see Zionism as eschatology.
  • Progressive Left: see Zionism as settler colonialism (and worse, settler colonialism).
  • Yossi: This “erases the indigenous relationship of the Jewish people to this land.”
• Hillel Halkin’s idea: “of course we're settlers, but we're not settler colonialists.” [29:12]

6. Should the Term ‘Zionism’ Be Abandoned?

• Donniel raises whether, given all the baggage, the term should be left behind ([30:01]).
• Yossi’s firm response:

  “Abandoning Zionism to those who hate it feels...like a violation of Jewish dignity...There’s something that is not dignified about letting our enemies determine what language we use to define ourselves.” [30:18]

• Donniel suggests the Jewish tradition is to reinterpret, not discard, challenging terms—Hanukkah as an example ([35:51]):

  "We take God's attributes and we reinterpret them. Jewish life is a constant reinterpretation of categories...We are an ancient people who...give meaning...in conversation with our past."

7. How Do We Save/Reinterpret Zionism?

• Yossi: “The worst way to try to salvage Zionism is by clinging to its classical meaning, which has already been fulfilled. For me, Zionism is not about statehood—the state exists...For me, Zionism today means something very different…peoplehood at the center point.” ([39:22])
• Expounds on Rabbi Mordecai Kaplan’s notion of Zionism as the ideology of Jewish peoplehood, which was radical in its time.
• Donniel: Peoplehood alone isn’t enough; Zionism should also return to “aspiration and excellence,” not just survival or normalcy.

  “I will be a Zionist when my Judaism is in fact enriched by Zion...It has to be about morality. It has to be excellence. It has to be an aspiration for excellence...When Zionism stands for something, Jews around the world will be Zionists.” ([45:39])

8. Zionism in the 21st Century: Homeland and Diaspora

• Yossi:

  “What peoplehood means in a 21st-century understanding of Zionism is that the Jewish people has a center, we have a homeland, and we have diasporas...In embracing peoplehood, we're creating a new understanding of Zionism...that affirms the legitimacy...of both homeland and diaspora.” ([43:40])

• Donniel:

  “Zionism will be reclaimed when Zionism stands for something...When Zionism reflects that, then Zionism will be a term that Jews around the world will be proud to identify with.” ([48:39])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The idea of abandoning Zionism to those who hate feels to me like a violation of Jewish dignity.” — Yossi [30:18]

• “Jewish life is a constant reinterpretation of categories...You have problems with [a term], reinterpret it.” — Donniel [36:24]

• “For me, Zionism today means something very different...we have a homeland, and we have diasporas...built into who we are.” — Yossi [43:16]

• “It has to be about inspiration. We need that again. And right now I don’t believe that Israel is always providing it.” — Donniel [45:39]

• “Zionism needs to return to itself...When Zionism reflects the best of the Jewish people...then it will be a term Jews around the world will be proud to identify with.” — Donniel [49:18]

Key Timestamps

• 00:36 — Setting the context: Overview of the wars facing Israel; existential threats.
• 06:10 — Early usage and shifting meaning of Zionism among Israelis.
• 08:00–13:38 — Yossi’s foundational narrative: Zionism as sovereignty, Uganda crisis, return to the international community.
• 14:30–21:48 — Divergent meanings: Israeli vs. diaspora uses; identity Zionism.
• 22:12 — Polls & negativity: Declining popularity of the term in North America.
• 24:00–30:18 — Toxicity, settler colonialism, terminology battles.
• 30:18–36:24 — Abandon, reinterpret, or retain the term? Heritage vs. innovation.
• 39:22–44:36 — Re-envisioning Zionism: Peoplehood, homeland and diaspora, Kaplan’s influence.
• 45:39–49:08 — Zionism’s future: Aspiration, inspiration, and renewed meaning.

Conclusion

The episode culminates in mutual reflection on reclaiming Zionism through aspiration and self-examination, rather than ceding definition to external critics or discarding it because of its controversial baggage. Donniel and Yossi agree that for Zionism to be meaningful and vital, it must answer not only why Jews need a state, but also what purpose Jewish power serves today—and strive to exemplify the best of Jewish values. The episode closes poignantly, juxtaposing deep philosophical discourse against the reality of war-time Israel, underlining the urgency and importance of these questions.

Note: The summary skips the podcast’s promotional and credits sections, per instructions.