← For Heaven's Sake
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign you are listening to an art media podcast. The biggest impact of the war so far is that it's created a new normal in Israeli society.
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B
We can call it routine emergency. That's our life. That's our life.
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A
It's not like the vast majority of Jews are against the war or that the vast majority of Jews are separating from Israel. It's not that. Yet I'm not here a prophet of doom. And everybody quotes the poll. That resonates more closely with an opinion that they want. And I don't want world Jewelry to walk away from us. But there is no doubt that this war is a bifurcating experience of a level that we haven't seen before. It's bifurcating in America, then it's bifurcating within the Jewish community. Foreign. This is Daniil Hartman and Yossi Kain Halevi from the Shalom Hartman Institute. And this is our podcast, for heaven's sake, in collaboration with Ark Media. Today's Tuesday, March 17, and today's episode we're calling the impact of the Iran War on Israel and the Jewish People. As we're taping this episode, we were just informed that Ali Larijani, the essential leader of Iran or the most powerful political figure, as well as the Basij commander, Soleimani, and tens, if not hundreds of the senior command of the Basij forces were assassinated. For a comprehensive analysis of the implications of these assassinations, Yossi and I, we'd like to recommend that you follow Kalbi back. I'm sure by the time this episode falls, Dan and some of his experts will have analyzed this issue very, very deeply, and that's the best analysis that you're going to find. But for today's session, we're not going to focus on the strategic impact of the war or these assassinations either on Israel or on the Iranian people. But rather, we want to focus on the impact of the war in general and especially the last week on Israeli society and on world Jewry. Now, as all of us know, this war is impacting people around the globe, the global economy. It's impacting and endangering civilians in Iran and the Gulf states. Now, we're not diminishing the importance of these consequences. But, Yossi, neither you nor I know what it feels like to be an Iranian right now. And Iranians, they're not our enemy. And we hope that despite these hardships that everything that Israel and the United States are now doing will be a pathway for a better life. In focusing on Israel and world Jewry, Yossi And I, we're going to focus on the two communities that we know best. And so over the last two and a half weeks, Yossi, so much has changed in our lives and so much has changed in Israel and in the realities of world Jewry. And the pace of events is dizzying. And by the time this podcast falls, there'll be new impacts that we have to talk about. But let's start with Israeli society. Israeli society at war. At war with Iran. Yossi, what's the major impact that you see to date?
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B
I think we're experiencing a combination of excitement at Israel's achievements in the war and America's achievements, and at the same time, a deep exhaustion. Now, I think that morale is still basically holding, but people, certainly my friends in the center of the country, are exhausted. You know, we get one or two or three sirens here in Jerusalem a day. We haven't had any at night for the last four or five nights. And I was talking with a friend of mine who lives near Tel Aviv, and he had six sirens last night with little kids. And so there's this tremendous sense of how much longer is this going to go on. But at the same time, the same friend who I was talking to was just thrilled with the achievements of the war as far as we can perceive them from here, and said we have to continue. You know, I had an experience yesterday. Daniil, as we've talked about, Sarah and I have a safe room in our apartment. So we haven't experienced the communal joy of Israeli togetherness in this war. But yesterday I was out and there was a siren. I went into a public shelter. It was packed. There was no room to sit. There were 40, 50 people standing, really packed in.
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A
And.
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B
And it included a bride and her wedding party. I was at the tennis center for. This is more information than you or our listeners need. I was going for a physiotherapy there, and her bridal party went to the tennis center to do their photo shoot. And the siren happens. So we're all packed in. She's packed in there with all of their extravagant dresses, and the mood was celebratory. Everyone was participating in the joy of this bride, and she was dispensing with blessings to all the single young women in the shelter. It's just an anecdote. I don't know how typical this is about what's happening in shelters across the country, but it was just this little window into how instantly things become intimate here. You know, this is coming after two and a half years of war. People really are tired. And yet I'm amazed at not only the capacity of Israelis to endure, but to endure with good humor. And that seems to me to still be holding. I see it from my neighbors, my neighbors with little kids. Everyone is exhausted and holding up.
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A
But Yossi, when you started, you used the word excited, right? What's the excitement?
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B
The feeling that I certainly have, and I think it's true for many Israelis, is that first of all, we don't share the angst of the critics of this war around the world. There's no goal. Where is this going to lead? Every day that we succeed in eliminating more of the leadership, in destroying more of the infrastructure, perhaps in emboldening the Iranian people for the next round, the inevitable next round of popular uprising, from our point of view, this is a tremendous benefit. So Israelis are really, I think, taking a long range view of this war. And we're not asking the questions that are being asked in other places. Not because we're not aware of the possible complications here, but because this seems to be a moment, an opportunity that comes around only once in a generation and we're taking it. And we have America with us. And there's this tremendous sense of also pride. What day is this of the war now? We're two weeks.
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A
Two and a half weeks.
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B
Yeah, two and a half weeks. And we have complete domination of Iranian airspace. Thank God there hasn't been a loss of life.
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A
Don't say, don't say.
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B
I know. I said thank God, you know.
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A
No, that doesn't help the evil. Don't talk.
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B
And I know you're serious.
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A
I'm very serious.
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B
I know, I know.
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A
But that's my mother's Torah.
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B
Just don't talk right now. Obviously things can go wrong in many directions and Israelis are aware, you know, we know what war is. We're aware things can go wrong. But I also don't think that if, God forbid, something does go wrong, it's not going to substantially change the way Israelis view this war.
- [08:49]
A
Right. You know, I think one of the concepts you put forth, which I thought was really important and I appreciate it, was when you said Israelis have a long term perspective that is very, very different. And sometimes when we hear some of the criticisms, the price of oil just went up this week or not that like depending on what happens tomorrow, you know, we even have reports that every single day President Trump is going to analyze whether to continue the war or to exit. It's like on a daily basis, Israelis have a much longer term perspective on it and maybe some of that excitement with this longer term perspective. You know, we're a people Who Dream for 2,000 years, so we're experts at long term perspectives. For me, the biggest impact of the war so far is that it's created a new normal in Israeli society. A new normal which sometimes I'm proud of and sometimes I'm weary of and sometimes I'm even frightened of. We're strong. It seems like in Israel, if you're not strong, you can't make it here. And this country makes you strong. You can't be weak here because the amount of challenges that are put before you just are immense. I was listening to this commentator who said, you know, we used to think that the real critical division in Israel is between right wing, left wing, religious, secular, Ashkenazi. Sephardi says no, the critical distinction is between those who have children and those
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B
who don't have children, those little children, and also army age children or grandchildren.
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A
Like, are you schlepping kids into the safe room, into the shelter or not? But it's like it's a new normal. It's like you said, you know, you go to a therapy and then you go and you go into a shelter and then you go out. And the other day someone from the institute came to deliver something to my house. Cause working from the house and he had his kids in the car and the siren goes off. So he comes, drops it off and he says, I'm going and says, no, you're not. Come on, go get your kids. Run out. Come on, all in. So they all come in and we all squeeze in our little stairwell and then, you know, the siren's over and then where's he going? They're having a birthday party. It's like it's his daughter's birthday, so they're going to a birthday party. And it's just sort of like the sirens aren't stopping the life.
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B
We can call it routine emergency and it's normal. That's our life. That's our life.
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A
It's just what we do. You know, I look so often like Adina and I were in the house by ourselves sometimes with our grandchildren. We said, okay, Daniil, did you hear? Yeah, I heard okay. It was the first announcement. You have to go down the next one. No one's panicking. I'm going to be traveling. We have a major event of the institute in Miami on this coming Sunday, the 22nd of March. And I was able to get out and I was thinking, should I go? Should I not go? And I said, Adina, how do you feel? And she says, I'm fine. It's Adina. She's fine.
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C
She's.
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A
I was like, I'm fine. You know, so once a night to wake me up, it's like, we all have our systems, we have our phones. It's this new normal that is both, on the one hand, it's very powerful to see the strength of it, but it's also. You wonder what the price is. And the price of it is not simple. How much fear and how much trauma are we swallowing? And if this is the new normal, do we want this to be a new normal? Because if you could get used to this, do you fight for something else? Or is this just what we're supposed to be? You know, we had a session months ago on Sparta Nation. You know, are we just this warrior nation? But within this new normal, there's one other feature that I find fascinating about this new normal, and that is that in the recent polls, when we go to war, usually the prime minister in power has a bump in the polls. It goes up, especially if the war has some measure of excitement and popular support that this war has. But what was so interesting is that the blocs didn't change at all. No change whatsoever. The Likud, led by Netanyahu, did not increase. The opposition, who's supporting the war, did not decrease. It's just sort of the same.
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B
One of the news commentators said, if you've been in a coma for the last few weeks and you just woke up, you would think it was still when you first went into the coma. Nothing's changed.
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A
Here is like this major event which could either not or potentially alter the future of Israel being led exceptionally well by the military. And that's the point. It's not giving Netanyahu a bump. And I would say Netanyahu did not take responsibility for October 7. He said it was the military's fault. So this war is seen as. He can't take credit for what's happening in Iran because the army and the security forces and the air force, they're doing this remarkable.
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B
It's a great point. That's a great point.
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A
He's not getting anything from this. And it's just like, you know, this is our life. We're going to go to war. We'll have prime ministers, we'll have bombing. They're going to shoot at us. We have systems. And the fact that it hasn't shifted dramatically yet, the Israeli political map, I think, is a powerful indication of this normalcy. This is Just our life. Those who didn't like Netanyahu beforehand aren't going to vote for him. Those who are on this, who wanted him will vote. The blocks remain the same. There's a deep seated dividend. And this war is just fitting into our normal patterns of life. But it's not normal.
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B
I think that's a great observation. And I'm wondering, Daniil, if there really is such a thing as the much vaunted floating voter or the weak right. Because it seems if you look at the trajectory of the polls, we have now really solidified into two immovable blocks. The events that we go through are cataclysmic and yet everyone knows what they think. The opinions have been set. I also think there's something else here that might be preventing an electoral bump for Netanyahu, and that's the deep anger in a very large part of the public about the government's exemption bill for the ultra orthodox. And just in the last week, a massive transference of funds to ultra orthodox institutions. And I think this hurt Netanyahu very much. With the soft right, it seems nobody's moving. Nobody's moving. And I think that he needs the ultra orthodox to form a government and this is his catch 22. But he can't break through to the electorate and win back the soft right that he's lost so long as he is stuck with the ultra orthodox.
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A
So let's shift. It's fascinating and I'm sure the Republican Party wishes they were in Israel because like, if the price of oil goes up, how much, you know by when, before the next midterm elections. All of this shifting here, it wouldn't matter here. No, it's besides the fact that I think, what is it? A gallon of gas here is $8 or $9. So it's like it's just a whole different story. But it's just part of normal. It's the long term and the normal that we mentioned. But I want to shift because the war is not the same war that we've been talking about for the last two and a half weeks. It's not just a war with Iran. There's another player which is now wreaking havoc in many ways far more than the missiles from Iran, and that is Hezbollah and its bombing of the north. And it's really decimating. The damage is huge. The quality of life is non existent. We have three, four, five, sometimes six minutes to get into a shelter. They have seconds to get in a shelter. They're living with fear. And now Israel is calling up new reserves. We've actually begun significant ground operations to try to claim all the territory up to the litany. So there is this war which is we're being drawn into, and it's not the same. Do you feel the same level of excitement that you mentioned about Iran with Hezbollah? How's that affecting Israel?
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B
That's a great question. I think it's really important, before I try to answer your question, to just linger for a moment on the crisis in the north, because what we experience in Israel, and it's very strange because this is such a small place, but we experience this war very differently depending where we live. Right? And so, of course, in the south, if you lived in the communities along the Gaza border, you experienced October 7th in full force. If you live in the north, you experience, as you noted, the missile and rocket assault very differently than certainly in Jerusalem, but even in Tel Aviv. And so every region really has its particular challenges. And the worry is, are we losing the north? Are people going to return there? There's been so much devastation and so much government neglect of the north. You know, this is also something that I think needs to be certainly an electoral issue. But in terms of dealing with the threat from the north, on the one hand, you know, there's this old pattern that is you and I have spoken about in the past on the podcast of what Lebanon means in Israeli consciousness, what it means to you as a soldier who fought there. There's a whole generation that's been scarred by Lebanon. But I think that this time something different is at play. It's impossible for Israelis to get excited about Lebanon. Lebanon is our black hole. It's our trauma. And at the same time, there seems to be a shift within Lebanon itself. And for the first time since 1982, when we had allies, an open alliance with Christian Lebanese, which of course ended disastrously. But this time, the exhaustion is across the board in Lebanese society. We hear it from Shiites as well as Sunnis and Christians and Druze, and that's new. There's now a government policy not to refer to Hezbollah as the resistance. Hezbollah is now seen as a non Lebanese force, as an occupying force. And I think this is a new development, and it creates an opening. And we're walking a very delicate line here because on the one hand, we need to continue applying pressure on Lebanon, on the Lebanese government. On the other hand, I think it would be a very big mistake, given the changes within public opinion and within the Lebanese political structure. It would be a very big mistake to resume targeting the Lebanese infrastructure. And it's a question, how do we maintain pressure on Lebanon without missing this moment, this opportunity? Now there's talk about a Lebanese Israeli peace agreement. I don't know many Israelis who really believe that that's possible, whether Lebanon will help. There you go. Tell me why.
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A
Because I want it. What do you mean? Like, this is part of my problem about this being the new normal. Shouldn't our aspirations guide some of our thought? I was very excited when I heard that Ron Dermer was appointed to be in charge of Lebanon. That means somebody's looking at some serious strategic, political, diplomatic moves. And we take our seasoned. One of our most seasoned people. Okay, we need somebody to look at this. It's not just a military event. There's something else. The French have offered, want to intervene. There are possibilities here. So if something's possible, I don't want to waste my time not taking it seriously. I actually want to take it seriously.
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B
Look, I think that the government here, I am giving the government the benefit of the doubt. If there's a possibility of bringing Lebanon into the Abraham Accords, for example, then of course, any Israeli government will explore that possibility. But I'm thinking realistically, you know, when in 1982, the excitement here was that we're about to sign a peace agreement with Lebanon, and then we learned that not only will Lebanon not be one of the first Arab countries to make peace with us, it's most likely going to be one of the last because of its weakness.
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A
Yossi, are you about to give a historical lesson on why the current reality will necessarily repeat everything that's happened over the last 40, 50 years?
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B
Not necessarily. Not necessarily, because I don't believe that.
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A
So I know we've had problems in the past.
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B
No, no. The question really is, can Lebanon not only find the desire and the will to make peace with us, but can it find the strength now? Will the French send troops to fight Hezbollah and help the Lebanese government free the country from Iranian control? I doubt it. And I don't think you believe that either.
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A
I do, actually. I do. I actually think seriously, very seriously. I don't know if the French. But I actually do believe Saudis. I do believe there is an opportunity to buttress the Lebanese army with other forces and maybe do something. But you know what? I don't know. Who knows? I'm just. Now, I'm holding onto a hope. But when I look at this war in Lebanon, and by the way. And don't take my hope away from me, because I like it and it's good for me and I need them. That's the way I live. I don't want to live all the time with what can't be. I want to also embrace what possibly could be. And when you embrace.
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B
See, this is interesting, Daniil, because what we were talking about a moment ago, about the new normal, the new normal is that we really live here from day to day. And when you live day to day, there's one advantage and there's one disadvantage. It's true. The advantage is that you don't think apocalyptically and you're not, oh, there's no plan. And where are we going? Right now we have the upper hand in a 50 year war with our most bitter adversary, Dayenu. So when you live day to day, you're in a kind of a Dayenu consciousness. The disadvantage is that if you're living day to day, you don't really allow yourself to think, will Lebanon really make peace with us a year from now or five years from now? Maybe. Who knows, you know, it's as abstract as the apocalypse. And so hope and despair, in a way are opposite sides of the same response.
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A
Beautiful, fascinating. But look, even what you just said, your articulation of it was, will Lebanon make peace with us? And part of the way I think about it is what are we going to do to facilitate that possibility? I'm not a passive person here, but when I said that I'm wary. You're absolutely right. You hit on the point when this is the new normal, you just, you know. Okay, I know how. And this is part of what happening, I believe, with Lebanon. But with Lebanon as distinct from Iran. You mentioned it, but I am hearing and sensing a very, very deep, deep ambivalence because as you called Lebanon our black hole. It's not just me. Everybody in Israel has served in Lebanon. Lebanon is our multi generational quagmire. Lebanon.
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B
I didn't, I didn't serve in Lebanon either. I was drafted too late.
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A
Yeah, that's because you moved here. You're in Ole. You missed it. But like, but we're talking for 40 years, everybody served in Lebanon. Everybody's been part of some Lebanese war excursion attack. And we have to remember that for decades our greatest fear wasn't Iran. With the exception of the potential of a nuclear weapon. Our real fear was not Hamas. Our fear was Hezbollah.
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B
Right.
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A
It started with 60, 70, 100,000 missiles, 150,000 troops. What we were really frightened from was Hezbollah. But as we have tried over and again, we really haven't been Effective. And, you know, when you watch the various news stations and the political discourse around the war, on the one hand, there's this Pavlonian response. Hezbollah attacks us, and a whole group of people say, well, Hezbollah made a strategic error. Because now we are going to show them. We're going to show them that Lebanon is going to be just like Gaza. I'm going to come back to in a moment as if Gaza was some great success, but this is like, here it is. We have a problem. Let's throw our troops at it. What do we do? We don't want to capture all of Lebanon. So what's the standard one which has gone by decades? Let's capture up to the litany. Let's clear it out. When you attack, we're going to attack and we're going to show you. We want you in Lebanon to know that anytime an Israeli can't sleep at night, you won't be able to sleep for a year. Every time you destroy a house, we're going to destroy a neighborhood. It's like. It's an I for an I times 10.
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B
You know, Michael Goodman, I don't see it that way. I know you, though, but I'm not. No, no. I also don't see. Just give me one second.
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A
I appreciate it, but let me just complete this point, Yossi, because I haven't made it yet. Right now, we are putting battalions of troops. Over 100,000 reservists are being called. These are exhausted people. So we're going to move back in. As we move back in, casualties return. This is what we know how to do. Now. The fact that most of the missiles are being fired at Israel north of the litany is something that now is being raised in these same conversations. So you have a debate going on. Okay. When you're threatened from Lebanon, you do this. And the argument is, I have to do something. I have to do something. What do you want me to do? Nothing. Someone might ask, is it effective or not? And I think people are sensing it. While with Iran, there's innovation, whether the plan will work or not. Y' all see, I don't know. But there's a sense that there is an attempt to think outside of a box, to try. Maybe there'll soon be a box that we're going to have to extricate ourselves from. But when it comes to Hezbollah in Lebanon, I feel like. And I sense it, and I hear from people, what, Lebanon again? What, we're going to send another battalion now. We're going to have three Battalions. How many battalions do we need to have there? What are we going to do? We're going to hold the territory. In other words, there's a quagra. So there's a stuckness. And Lebanon doesn't have the military excitement. It might have the political excitement, but in the new normal, Israelis aren't necessarily talking or seeing that excitement.
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B
What's your alternative? They're shelling us. What do you do?
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A
Okay, I bomb back. I definitely don't try to capture Tulitani. I don't to hold Alitani. And here there was a detailed analysis of how many troops we need to hold southern Lebanon to Litany. You want to hold a 6 kilometer, 7 kilometer area to limit the ability of anti tank weapons fired at houses. Okay, bomb, try to get rid of their missiles, capture. It's like we know it doesn't work. And now people again, they're being called up reservists. And you'll see the casual it's yesterday's news. And since it's the new normal, people aren't complaining as much. But it's futile and it's an example of a futile operation. Work with the Lebanese government, work with international opinion and forces, see what else you could do. Do some things in the meantime. But this notion of a massive ground operation, it just doesn't make sense to me.
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B
Look, I hear you and I don't
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A
think it makes sense to a lot
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B
of Israelis to tell you no, I hear that. But you know, when you say work with the Lebanese government, I appreciate the fact that you want to empower us and you want us to have initiat and that we're masters of our fate, but not in all ways. And we'd happily work with the Lebanese government. Will they work with us?
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A
I don't know.
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B
Can they work with us?
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A
Who knows?
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B
So I think, Daniil, that the question of the territory between the border and the Litany, you know, this is something that's really haunted us. Even before the 1982 Lebanon War, there was Operation Litany in 1978.
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A
That was my first engagement. That's correct.
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B
Oh, were you part of that?
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A
No, but I was called up. I was in the army and we were younger soldiers. We replaced soldiers who moved into Litany and took their positions in the Golan.
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B
So we've been grappling with the litany problem for 50 plus years.
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A
Let's call it the Litany problem, the Litany fantasy. Either way, this conversation is having an impact in Israel differently. But I want to shift now because there's Another half of the Jewish people. We said, how is this war impacting on Israel, both Jew and non Jew alike in Israel and on the Jewish people around the world? Yossi, what's the major impact that you see since this war started? What's your observation?
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B
I think that the antisemitic assault is becoming more violent. And it's hard to know whether this is coming from Iranian sleeper cells. That's the word. In Holland, for example, there have been a number of attacks on Jewish institutions there. A school, a synagogue. So there's some suspicion that this is coming from Iranian cells, but not everywhere. You know, there is also the spontaneous terrorism that we saw. For example, in Temple Israel near Detroit. There have been three synagogue shootings in Canada in the last two weeks. Fortunately, no one was hurt, but they're now shooting into Jewish institutions. And so there's an intensification of attacks and it's happening globally. And I've been following the conversation, especially among American Jews, and I'm seeing two basic responses. One response, which is, we're showing the flag metaphorically and sometimes literally, we're not going to be intimidated. And then there's another response that you're hearing on the far left, the Jewish far left, but not only which is Israel is endangering us and our intimacy with Israel is putting us at risk. And actually there's a third response, and that response is, I don't understand why they're attacking us here when there's a war that's happening 6,000 miles away that we have no responsibility for. And I have to say I have no patience for that response because the war that we're fighting here against radical Islamism is exactly the war that the Jewish people is fighting. The entire Jewish people is at war with radical Islamism. We didn't declare that war. That war was declared on us. And it's not going to help to say, why are you attacking us? First of all, if you have an Israeli flag in your synagogue, you're identifying with us. And so own it, own the identification. I was very moved by the response of Temple Israel to the attempted massacre that was prevented there. They invited the Israeli Consul General of the Midwest, Elad Stromayer, to come speak. That was exactly the right response to all of those who were saying, you know, what do you expect? Look at the name Temple Israel, right? They do events there supporting Israel. And you heard this, you heard a lot of this pushback. And the synagogue responded with dignity and courage. It was a very powerful talk that the Council general gave. I'D really like to give a shout out to it. And it's. The clip is available.
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A
We're going to link it in our show notes.
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B
Great, great. And just very briefly, he said two things that I found very moving. First, he said, you know, I'm a secular Israeli, but you might have noticed during the services that I was not only praying along with you, but I knew all the melodies. And he said, the reason for that is that 20 years earlier, I was an emissary from the Jewish Agency to a liberal Jewish summer camp. And he said, and for me, as a secular Israeli, this was a revelation. I discovered Judaism and it changed me as a Jew. And then he said to them, we stand with you. You're not alone. And I thought, you know, something is changing in the Israeli American Jewish conversation. First of all, to have an Israeli speak so warmly and with such deep respect and gratitude toward Reform Judaism, that's something we rarely hear. And then for an Israeli representative to switch the conversation, usually the dynamic is American Jews, Diaspora Jews, we, we stand with you, we stand with Israel. Now they're the ones who are vulnerable. Now we're standing in solidarity with them. And so something is happening here in the dynamic that I think we should really be paying attention to. And there's going to be a lot of pushback. As I mentioned earlier, there already is pushback to the deepening Israeli American Jewish relationship from within elements of the Jewish community. And at the same time, we're seeing a healthier turn in the Israeli American Jewish relationship, which I find very hopeful
- [37:03]
A
for me, Yossi, the major change that I'm sensing, and one that I don't think we know the ramifications of it yet, is the new major divide which this war has created within. I could speak about North American Jewry, I'm not sure whether it is also world jewelry and our friends in Canada. Tell me it's less in Canada, it's more an American phenomenon. Shout out here to my colleague and dear friend Michelle Schulman. But there is no doubt that this war is creating a new divide. It's not a denominational divide. It's not necessarily a divide about BB or about the occupation. It's a divide which goes to the heart of the relationship with Israel and the place that Israel should have within the life of world Jew. And if you remember when we were talking about voting for Mamadani and we quoted Elliot Cosgrove's Our Colleague's Speech about how when you ask me to disconnect from Israel, you're asking me to disconnect from part of my juvias. I think part of what this war is creating is that it is undermining the self evidence of this. Now, the polls, it's not like the vast majority of Jews are against the war or that the vast majority of Jews are separating from Israel. It's not that. Yet I'm not here a prophet of doom. And everybody quotes the poll. That resonates more closely with an opinion that they want. And I don't want world jewelry to walk away from us. But there is no doubt that this war is a bifurcating experience of a level that we haven't seen before. It's bifurcating in America, it's bifurcating around the world, and it's bifurcating within the Jewish community. While Israel still plays an important role in what it means to be a Jew. And as you quoted, most synagogues in North America still have an Israeli flag. They have an American or Canadian and an Israeli flag. That yes, we have dual loyalty because relationship with Israel is part of my Judaism. I think this war is raising a new chapter and we're going to have to think very clearly about how we respond. Those who had celebrated, whether you call it Diasporaism or anti Zionism in the Jewish community in the past, there's a wind in their sails. There's something, there's a fatigue. And it goes much deeper than am I for the war or am I against the war? It's something deeper. It's not a superficial criticism of the war like of the types of conversations that you and I had over the last two podcasts. It's not about that. It's not about whether we should be fighting Iran or not fighting Iran. You know, and you're telling them, own it. You know, Israel, it's more complicated. And part of what they're feeling is there is an Israeli agenda which is not the same as their Jewish agenda. Room for that conversation is increasing. And how we lovers of Israel, how we Zionists, how we, whether it is the Israeli or whether it's the North American or Jew around the world for whom Israel is an integral part of your Judaism, how do we respond to this? How do we create an Israel that is exciting again for people? How do we win back those people who are at least beginning to ask the question, a question that just a few years ago no one would ask. It's bad enough that in general, in America, outside of the Republican Party, the support for Israel is diminishing dramatically. It's just this question you'll See, is a question that whether we like it or not, whether we feel it's a betrayal or not, it's on the table now. And how we respond is going to be critical. And by the way, it connects back to Lebanon. Paradoxically, in Israel, for whom war is normal, we'll get some sympathy. But at the end of the day, if that's all we are, it's going to create alienation. We have to be a people who aren't just trying to win in the Middle east, but we have to be a people who are trying to win around the world as well, because winning around the world is as existentially important as winning in the Middle East. And I'm sensing the issue, Yossi. I don't know where it's going to go, but I know that people like you and people like me, it's our responsibility to see this and to ask, how do we reclaim not the legitimacy of Israel from a political, international, legal perspective, but the importance of Israel in our Jewish conversation? The question is on the table. Yossi, do you have last thoughts for today, please?
- [42:17]
B
I don't have last thoughts. I have lots of interim thoughts, lots of thoughts beginning a whole new conversation. But just to very briefly respond to a lot of the important things that you've just said, what your concluding remarks, really, I think, sum up the work that we do at the Institute, that's exactly what we're trying to do, is redefine the Israeli story, redefine the balance between realism and aspiration. This is the stuff of our work all these years. But in terms of the conversation, that's opening up mostly in American Jewry as opposed to the rest of the Diaspora. I have space for some of that conversation, but I don't have space for all of it. It depends what the question is. If the question is, do I support the war? Well, I have to deal with my American Jewish partners, and I have to deal with their ambivalence and their concerns. If the question is, where is Israel heading? I have similar concerns. If the question is, do I really have space in my American Judaism anymore for a country that just seems to be causing trouble and getting into trouble, I have a lot less patience for that conversation.
- [43:40]
A
But at the end of the day, you'll see. Whether you have patience or not is not the relevant question.
- [43:45]
B
Well, it's.
- [43:46]
A
It's autobiographical for you.
- [43:48]
B
No.
- [43:48]
A
At the end of the day, educationally, we're going to have to deal with it. The question is, and this is the last word.
- [43:55]
B
Yes, I understand that your commitment is unconditionally to deal with all of these questions and. And I have a limited amount of patience. That's the truth.
- [44:09]
A
Okay, Yossi, we gotta win. We have to win in Iran, we have to win in Lebanon. We have to win around the world. How we do. So listen, two and a half weeks into the war, let's see what the next week will bring for us and bring to us. Yossi, it's a pleasure talking with you.
- [44:26]
B
Great being with you, Daniil.
- [44:28]
A
Be well. Hi friends. At the Sholem Hartman Institute, we believe that Jewish life thrives when we engage courageously and honestly with the moral and spiritual challenges of our time. For me, the work of building a Judaism that is intellectually vibrant, ethically serious and infused with hope is not just a professional calling. It is a commitment to our shared future. Each summer, our Community Community Leadership Program turns Jerusalem into a Beit Midrash of ideas and a laboratory of leadership. Learners and leaders from across the Jewish world come together to study, to question, to argue, and ultimately to imagine a more meaningful and more responsible Jewish future. This year, I invite you to join me from July 1st to July 7th to explore the ideas and values that can anchor us in this complicated moment. You'll learn with me and with my extraordinary colleagues and with a community bound together by curiosity, purpose and possibility. Space is Limited. Visit sholemhartman.org CLP to reserve your spot. Hope to see you there.
- [45:41]
D
Here are some other things that are happening at the Sholem Hartman Institute. Join us in Jerusalem this summer. Leaders, philanthropists and learners from around the world will gather for our Community Leadership Program. Rabbis and cantors will convene at our Rabbinic Torah Seminar and Jewish educators will study at the Wellspring Summit. For educators to learn more and to apply, click on the link in the show notes. Space is limited and reserve your spot today. This Sunday, March 22nd, in Miami, join president of the Shalom Hartman Institute, Danielle Hartman and veteran Israeli peace negotiator Tal Becker, as well as other leading Hartman thinkers for the first ever Florida Leadership Conference entitled Israel at a Crossroads. Moral Leadership in a Time of Crisis. Secure your spot today@shelhamhartman.org Florida Leadership Hartman Senior faculty member and research fellow Deborah Beher published a new book, Going Off Improvisational Judgment in the Talmud. The book examines classical rabbinic literature and what it tells us today about the relationship between Jewish ethics and Jewish law. Congratulations, Deb. We can't wait to read it.
- [46:44]
C
For heaven's sake. Is a product of the Shalom Hartman Institute and ARC Media. It is produced by me, Daniel Goodman, with help from Miriam Jacobs, Adar Taylor Schechter, and Aviva Kat Manore, and studio support from Go Live Media. Our episode was edited by Seth Stein, Natal Friedman is our executive producer, and our music was composed by Yuval Samo. Past episodes can be found@arcmedia.org where you can explore more of Arc Media's podcasts. You can award Watch the video versions of our episodes on our YouTube channel. Follow the YouTube link in the Show Notes. Also, to receive updates on new episodes, please follow the link to arcmedia.org and subscribe to Arc Media's weekly newsletter. For more ideas from the Shalom Hartman Institute, visit our website@shalomhartman.org.