Daniel Hartman (3:15)

And basically, people within the State Department saying, I think the term was, this is our game. Yeah, this is the term. It's our game. You know, as I say over and again, it's our life, but it's somebody else's game. And all the moves like, why did this happen? How did this happen? But you realize that it's Trump's world, and he's going to do whatever it is that he's going to do. Sometimes it might feel like he's our ally, and sometimes he's going to follow our agenda, but the feeling is, is that we're now in another arena in a different world. Not a world where we're the center of the universe, and not a world where our issues and concerns and even opinions, it's Trump's world. Now we're going to talk about what does it mean to live in Trump's world here in Israel, here in our neighborhood? And we received literally hundreds of people writing to us. Don't you respect or understand what it means to live in Trump's world in the United States? And I really want to be clear. We're not belittling your experience and the fears, and I can understand them, you know, as we sit here, feelings of unpredictability, power, blatant power, issues of whether morality is even an issue, narcissism. What was the motivation like? We're sensing it from here, and I could appreciate that it is tenfold, as you live in the United States and wonder about the rule of law and about abuses of power and ice and Constitution. And our lack of conversation on these issues does not mean that we're belittling that experience at all. And I also appreciate that when we say good things about the president, that you feel profoundly alienated. But we're not talking about it because it's not our mandate and we don't feel as in control. We talk about what we're experiencing and the people who we are a part of about what their experiences are, an analysis of that. So we're going to talk about Trump's world. And I appreciate those who actually have to live in Trump's world in the.

Yossi Klein Halevi (5:23)

United States, and now we do, too.

Daniel Hartman (5:26)

Yeah, maybe we understand you better a little bit. So, please, it wasn't disrespect or ignoring the issue. It's just not our mandate to talk about that, even though it might seem profoundly callous. So I apologize for that. And so Trump's world. This is Trump's world, and he's going to decide, and the impact is going to be on us. So let's begin. How does it feel for you to live in Trump's world?

Yossi Klein Halevi (5:56)

Well, first of all, Danil, I very much appreciate what you've just said, and I do feel that we owe many of our listeners that explanation. So thanks for putting that out there. This past week, Trump taught us something essential about the nature of narcissism in his humiliating spectacle around the Nobel Prize. First receiving the Nobel Prize from the Venezuelan recipient, as if this was a trophy that you could pass from hand to hand, and then telling the prime minister of Norway, well, your country didn't give me the Nobel Peace Prize after I solved at least eight wars, so I'm not so interested in peace anymore. And I'm going to grab Greenland. And you're listening to this and you realize that narcissism is not just a personality disorder in its extreme form, it's a form of madness. And what we're seeing with this totally unself aware display of narcissism is a kind of a nervous breakdown. And this is the President of the United States, and all of our lives are in his hands. And in some ways, and here I'm going to actually soften a little bit what you just said, because in some ways, the consequences for us here in the Middle east, not only Israel right now, mostly for Iranians, the consequences are actually much more immediate in life and death than they are for your average American, even though you're living under Trump here, the consequences are life and death.

Daniel Hartman (7:48)

Let's put that in brackets. It's either true or not true, depending on your experiences.

Yossi Klein Halevi (7:54)

But that's my perspective.

Daniel Hartman (7:56)

But you know what this is? This is the old Jewish competition. Who's the greater victim?

Yossi Klein Halevi (7:59)

But I'm thinking more for the people of Iran. Yes.

Daniel Hartman (8:03)

So now. So go to Iraq.

Yossi Klein Halevi (8:04)

How does this there, it really is like this.

Daniel Hartman (8:06)

This must have been a devastating week for you.

Yossi Klein Halevi (8:11)

Look, you know, we talked about this last week, how strange it is to live in the Israeli reality where we're sitting here hoping that Trump is going to hit Iran, and at the same time, we're stocking up food and water because we know that we're going to get hit. And then when Trump backed down, there was this palpable sense of disappointment and.

Daniel Hartman (8:33)

Relief of the two.

Yossi Klein Halevi (8:34)

Yeah, I mean, relief, you know, oh, wow, we have another couple of days or a couple of weeks where we can actually live quasi normal lives.

Daniel Hartman (8:42)

Person who I know who's flying in? Actually, they could fly. It's like our life looks. It's like this is looking at the world through, you know, a very small, little personal perspective.

Yossi Klein Halevi (8:52)

But it's not only the smallness of our perspective, it's the enormity of the consequences that it's so immediate when we champion a policy or oppose a policy, there's nothing abstract about it. But in terms of the impact on the Iranian people, what has just happened there is so unspeakable. But let's keep it in the context of Trump's world, because Trump urged the people of Iran to go into the streets. And I've seen reports of people saying, we went in because we believed we had the backing of the president, people who were killed. I read something just today of a young man who had told his family, I'm going out because the president is with us. He said, it's different now. And he went out and was killed. And this is the report from his parents. So the consequences of recklessness, of false promises are so much greater than, for example, when Obama drew his famous or infamous red line in Syria, and he said, if Assad uses poison gas on his people, then we're going to use military force. And of course, Assad then proceeded to use poison gas. That was, from my perspective, that was the beginning of the end of Obama's credibility on Iran. And when he would say that all options are on the table, no one believed him anymore. Trump is facing a similar moment now because of that and because of his narcissism. I actually think there's still a reasonable chance that he will attack Iran, because he knows that if he doesn't do that, everyone is going to compare him to Obama. But again, worse than Obama, because with Trump, there were really devastating consequences.

Daniel Hartman (10:47)

You know, it's interesting that I was very ambivalent about America calling off the bombing. You know, the little caveat is that Netanyahu seems to ask him to do the same thing. Now, they did not. We don't talk about it.

Yossi Klein Halevi (10:59)

We don't know.

Daniel Hartman (11:00)

We don't know. But it's like the reports, the discussion under the table, over the table, about whether we have enough Arrow missiles, whether we were ready, what the price is, all of the above. There's something going on. There's something clearly going on. But maybe it was also, and even to his credit, okay, I wanted to do something.

Yossi Klein Halevi (11:19)

You're talking about Trump.

Daniel Hartman (11:20)

Trump, and at what point that the use of power has to have some strategy, some notion of effectiveness, some exit before you enter, have an idea of how you exit. What was it that you wanted to achieve? So I wonder whether that part of the conversation is something that so many of us don't want. Like, we want. You're a superpower. Can you do me a favor? Can you just punch him? Like, you could punch? So, like, punch, give a punch. Like, just stand up. Stand up against the bully. And maybe some of it is ask the question about what's achievable. And we don't know. By the time this podcast is aired, there might be a bombing. We truly have no idea, because in Trump's world, you don't know at all.

Yossi Klein Halevi (12:08)

All right, so present a plan of what you're going to do. Put the squeeze on Europe to ban the Revolutionary Guards. Put the squeeze on Iranian bank accounts that are still allowed to be open.

Daniel Hartman (12:22)

Give us something, you know, the vice president, who is, you know, one of the major isolationists. He was for the bombing or for X. We don't even know what the X is because he says, once the President of the United States gives a red line.

Yossi Klein Halevi (12:37)

Yeah, you see, again, that's why I think that there's a very good chance that it's going to happen.

Daniel Hartman (12:43)

Who knows?

Yossi Klein Halevi (12:43)

And look, there's a giant aircraft carrier on its way to the Persian Gulf, and who knows, who knows, who knows? I appreciate that, but that's exactly the point about Trump's world. Who knows about anything? Could you have imagined that we're talking about a military confrontation between America and Europe over Greenland? Denmark is traumatized. Denmark is one of the most loyal allies of the United States.

Daniel Hartman (13:15)

So, you know, my experience of Trump's world, you know, I've been experiencing it through my friends in the United States who have been talking about their fears and concerns, but I felt it from a distance, and I think most Israelis felt it from a distance. And part of that distance expressed itself in a uniform support for Trump, an exclusively complimentary discourse in the press. It's changed completely.

Yossi Klein Halevi (13:43)

Yeah.

Daniel Hartman (13:44)

The criticisms of him, the conversation about Trump being Trump, his narcissism, power, immoral, all of that. It's editorials all over the place, conversations, commentators on television, on social media. It's a different conversation. I want to tell you a story and tell our audience a story of last Tuesday night in which Israelis encountered Trump's world in a unique moment. We were waiting to hear about a possible attack on Iran, and there was a report that in the president's press conference in Michigan, he was going to relate to Iran. What did Israeli press do? I Never experienced this. Every single news site from about 8 o' clock prime, prime time. That's the prime news. That's like America's six, seven, the eight o' clock news across five after eight. They're waiting. And everybody goes live to President Trump's press conference in Michigan. And we're waiting to hear about Iran. We're waiting to hear about what are you going to do? We're waiting to hear about whether our life is going to be turned upside down. And it's remarkable. We just freeze. We're watching this live press conference and you in the United States will understand what I'm saying. And Donald Trump starts being Donald Trump. We're sitting there literally at the edge of our seat. Is our world going to change or not? And I won't try to do an imitation of go for it. No, I won't. Because I won't be as good as Saturday Night Live or all the other people who do it. But you sit there and you watch him first working the crowd. This congressperson, this person, that person. Great guy, did great things for us, will be doing great things. Lost his seat now going into the Senate. His election was stolen from him, just like my election was stolen because that's the only. And he's going on Trump's stream of consciousness. Stream of consciousness. First about the people in the room distributing compliments. But it all evolves around his universe. And then he starts shifting into this extensive stream of consciousness, a narrative of profound self congratulation and a litany of besides the fact that, you know, everything was stolen. And then some jibes at former President Biden. And then we have the greatest economy, the lowest inflation, the greatest growth.

Yossi Klein Halevi (16:17)

Israelis are sitting at their seat. We're looking to here, if we have.

Daniel Hartman (16:22)

To run into shelters, the stock market and everything. And we're sitting there and it's like, I've done only the most amazing things. It's never happened in the history of the world. That was good over that wasn't that. I wasn't even trying. But it was over and over and over again. And so it's like for five minutes, it's fine. 20 minutes, 25 minutes. You have to realize we breathe news, we breathe news, we breathe analysis. The percentage of Israelis who watch the news, it's like one of the high. It's just unbelievable. We're breathing it and we're just sitting here and waiting. What's going to happen in our world? And we're. We were literally transported into Trump's world. That was never experienced because we could be spectators on Trump's world. We were living in Trump's world. And I have to tell you, it was a dystopia. You felt it, that it's one thing, you know, he's entertaining. The guy's really funny as could be. He's entertaining. But it's one thing, you know, if I want to watch entertainment, I'll watch entertainment here. This was the news, and for a society that takes its future very seriously, and as you said, there are existential consequences that are immediate. It was truly one of the most alienating, and it was even humiliating.

Yossi Klein Halevi (17:47)

You know, Israelis used to say, yeah, okay, so he says silly things, but what matters is his policy. And I think that that was the moment when Israelis understood that when the President of the United States indulges in absurdities, it has policy consequences.

Daniel Hartman (18:09)

That's Trump's world. They lived in Trump's world. When he came to the Knesset, we invited him into our world and let him entertain us. And when he's on our side, listen.

Yossi Klein Halevi (18:21)

And Israelis were charmed. We went on and on, and he turns to Bibi and he says, you should be nicer to this guy Lapid, you know, he's not the guy.

Daniel Hartman (18:30)

And Herzog, how can't you not pardon him? It was a riot here, though, the dissonance between where we were. And I just want to be clear, I can't blame President Trump. So somewhere along the line, I don't know if it was in moment 27 or moment 49, he actually again said, and if the Iranians keep on shooting people, you can't imagine what we're going to do to them. Like a Trumpistic bombastic warning of some form which doesn't seem to have scared them that much, but whatever it is. But Israelis had to go back, and we were left. Really, really. So it was an existentially, psychologically, very powerful moment.

Yossi Klein Halevi (19:14)

All the romance is over.

Daniel Hartman (19:16)

The romance is over, but the dependency isn't. Because part of Trump's world, as you know, anybody who's opened any newspaper in the world or anybody who has eyes, there's one superpower now, China, is principally using soft power. And so there isn't a direct conflict. It could also be China's world. Russia's ability to use hard power in Ukraine hasn't shown itself to be that successful. And people aren't petrified right now. We don't know what will be with China as they're amassing their power. But there's one superpower, you know, United States could shut off any connection between China and Venezuelan oil. Like it's his world. And so you could be profoundly disappointed and critical, but it is his world. How do we as Israelis, how do we maneuver? What do we do in this universe?

Yossi Klein Halevi (20:06)

There's a point I actually wanted to raise, which is a roundabout way of beginning to answer your question, and that is that what we've seen in the last days, with Trump completely disregarding the Israeli government's wishes and intentions in Gaza and effectively imposing his idea of a solution on us is a vindication of something you've been saying here for at least the last year.

Daniel Hartman (20:35)

Could we stop for a second? Can I hear that sentence again? No, I don't just want to say, was there a.

Yossi Klein Halevi (20:41)

As we say in Hebrew, magi alacha, you deserve it.

Daniel Hartman (20:44)

What was it? Please tell.

Yossi Klein Halevi (20:46)

So this is it, Daniil. And what you've been saying all along, really, almost through the Gaza war, is that we are setting ourselves up for a fall by not articulating a clear goal, a political goal, not just a military goal. Yes, we want to bring down Hamas. Then what? And you were warning about this. And for better or for worse, Netanyahu doesn't listened to this podcast and the consequences have now been playing out. Netanyahu promised us complete victory and he laid out parameters. He had four or five points, you remember. Every one of those points has failed with the exception of the return of the hostages. There's one body that still has not been returned, but more or less that has been successful, which was not his priority, by the way. That was the bottom of his list.

Daniel Hartman (21:49)

That was President Trump's priority, and that.

Yossi Klein Halevi (21:51)

Was President Trump's victory.

Daniel Hartman (21:52)

Victory.

Yossi Klein Halevi (21:53)

And all of the other points. Hamas will be disarmed. There'll be no presence in a post Hamas government of the Palestinian Authority, certainly no presence of Turkey and Qatar, who are the main patrons of Hamas. Every one of those points has been erased. So this is a direct consequence of Netanyahu giving in to the veto of the far right and to allowing Israeli policy to simply drift and there is no void. This is really something you've been saying, and we're seeing the fruits, the consequences.

Daniel Hartman (22:36)

So how do you maneuver? What do you do?

Yossi Klein Halevi (22:37)

So how do you maneuver? I think we need to make a distinction here between Gaza and Iran. And I'm very worried about Netanyahu being distracted by Gaza and provoking a confrontation with Trump over Gaza when Gaza in the end is a sideshow. This war, and I've said this here in previous podcasts, this war will not be determined in Gaza City. It will be determined in Tehran. And for Israel to provoke Trump and to use whatever capital we have left with him and to squander it in a fight over Gaza would be compounding his historic failure. So, first of all, a reorientation of priorities we are focusing on. It's Iran, Iran, Iran.

Daniel Hartman (23:33)

Your Honor, you know, I think following up on what I was right about.

Yossi Klein Halevi (23:41)

If I can take the moment, Danielle. Okay. It doesn't happen that often. You might as well enjoy it.

Daniel Hartman (23:46)

You know, my mother, a blessed memory, said it happens every week. She's just not here to validate me now. That's what it means to lose a mother in a very deep sense. So, like, that's true. I'm. I have to take this moment. But I think it's even worse than not having a strategy. We had false red lines. We had false aspirations. A notion that there could be a day after in Gaza without Palestinian involvement, that somehow people around the world are going to come in and they're going to have their soldiers fighting against Hamas and do our job for us. It was dishonest from the beginning. The portraying of the Palestinian Authority as worse than Hamas was dishonest. And Netanyahu knows it better than anyone, because Netanyahu is the Prime Minister of security, and he knows better than anyone that our greatest security ally in Judea and Samaria is the Palestinian Authority. There's almost no degree of separation between the Palestinian Authority and the Israeli security force.

Yossi Klein Halevi (24:53)

I think that's what one can say about the Palestinian Authority is that it is a partner for tactical goals. It is not a peace partner because they haven't accepted our legitimacy, even if they had. But it's the confusion of the story that the far right makes and they've imposed on this government when you can work with the PA for limited goals.

Daniel Hartman (25:16)

And even your statement that they haven't accepted our legitimacy, I think is false.

Yossi Klein Halevi (25:20)

Well, then we should devote a whole podcast to it.

Daniel Hartman (25:22)

No, we can't, because then it's. Now we're getting into factual debates. We'll all go back and now find which declaration they signed. But where does it come down to? How could you accept our legitimacy when your curriculum in your school. What's the fact? Is it the curriculum in the schools? Is it to pay to slay? I accept there is an ambivalence, but it doesn't matter. I don't care. The bottom line is, for me, it's sufficient to tactical. Like, if you gave me tactical, I'll take tactical.

Yossi Klein Halevi (25:46)

I'm gearing up to have an argument with you about this, but I don't even like.

Daniel Hartman (25:49)

It just doesn't matter because it's the wrong argument right now and someone else is going to have to. It doesn't really matter. Are they really strategic partners? Have they accepted us or not? That just doesn't matter. Tactically, we have a common enemy in Hamas. Tactically, the best solution we had was some investment or involvement of Palestinians in Hamas.

Yossi Klein Halevi (26:10)

Absolutely.

Daniel Hartman (26:11)

And so we created this fictitious line. Even Qatar and Turkey. I agree. We don't want Qatari and Turkish troops on the ground here.

Yossi Klein Halevi (26:21)

We don't. Not only that, I don't want them involved politically either, but when you don't.

Daniel Hartman (26:26)

Have a strategy and you just ban Qatar and Turkey, the United States is two primary allies here and you never supported Egypt as a force because Egypt was competing. And part of our taking the funding of Qatar was saying no. And the Prime Minister's office, the story that's not being told or is being told is they were pushing for Qatari legitimacy over Egyptian legitimacy. So I wish we didn't have a strategy. We had a false strategy which was built on.

Yossi Klein Halevi (26:59)

We had an anti strategy built on.

Daniel Hartman (27:01)

Political expediency with no vision and a.

Yossi Klein Halevi (27:05)

Very high degree of self delusion that it doesn't matter. We can continue talking to ourselves and the rest of the world.

Daniel Hartman (27:14)

We'll follow. And you know who gave us the courage to think that we could do this? President Trump. Because the story we told is that we're not in Trump's world.

Yossi Klein Halevi (27:24)

He's in ours, Trump's in our world.

Daniel Hartman (27:27)

And that's what's changed. And so when you're in Trump's world.

Yossi Klein Halevi (27:31)

It'S a great insight, Daniel.

Daniel Hartman (27:32)

So I don't know and it's going to be very interesting to see. So part of me, you know, there's something about the policies of Witkoff and Kushner that are much closer to my policies and to my political aspirations. They have a very different perspective on what's good for Israel and where we're going to move forward. And it's much closer to mine, including pathways to Palestinian statehood, integration of Israel into a larger Sunni universe, even though I don't know whether Saudi Arabia is still involved or not, but in which Israel has sort of stepped aside. And so it's like almost, it's telling Israelis, buckle up, you're in for a ride. But I think part of the way you maneuver is you start coming up with something. By the way, and it's not even Trump. You have to speak to it's Witkoff Kushner's vision. And if all we could say is no, all we could say is no. And we don't have any vision for a new universe. So either you don't have a vision, you're going to be swept up into Trump's universe and you're not going to be able to fight Trump. Let's be clear, we're not going to be able to. There isn't the political power in the United States, all of NATO doesn't know what to do.

Yossi Klein Halevi (28:51)

The world doesn't know we could fight Biden because we had the Republicans on our side. There's no one going to be on our side if we fight Trump.

Daniel Hartman (28:59)

We could fight Biden because we thought we had Trump on our side. And so now what does it mean to understand, to have a clearer perspective of your limitations, of what you could achieve and not achieve? And when you shift your awareness, there are ways to live in Trump's world. Some of them might not be that comfortable, but it's a different mindset and it has no room for strutting. And one of the primary characteristics of Netanyahu's political Persona is he's a strutter. He's a strutter of power. He presents himself. I have a feeling that when he shakes other politicians hands, he squeezes like you ever look the way he shakes, it's like, I'm the bully, I'm the strong guy, look. And that's his Persona in Israel. And it's not a lion roaring anymore. There's a little mouse whimpering.

Yossi Klein Halevi (29:51)

I wonder what the impact will be electorally.

Daniel Hartman (29:54)

That is very interesting what that will be. Final reflections. Yossi?

Yossi Klein Halevi (29:57)

Yeah. You had mentioned as an aside, the increasingly urgent question of whether the Saudis are still interested in normalization. And that's another consequence of this government's delaying and pretending that time is on our hands, not offering any initiative. And so one of the first items on the agenda for God wooing the next government, if it's not too late, will be to reach out urgently to the Saudis to try to put the Saudi track back in play and to return to us some sense of momentum and self determination, because it's Israel's self determination which has been squandered here, even though we had opportunities to assert it. And so I have all kinds of hopes. I hope Trump is going to hit Iran. I hope that the Saudis are still interested in some form of normalization with us. A lot will depend on Israel reclaiming the prerogative of self determination.

Daniel Hartman (31:03)

Very interesting. I follow the opposition voices in Israel very, very carefully and it's interesting because they're in the opposition, they could pretend that they're not in Trump's world, that they actually could have, if we were there, we could have made sure that Turkey and Qatar would not have joined. Or Smotrich. Yes, we should now just tell America enough. Thank you.

Yossi Klein Halevi (31:31)

What's so interesting is that Smutrich is not in opposition, but he speaks as.

Daniel Hartman (31:35)

If he were interesting. It's interesting that I even made that. Because he's not responsible.

Yossi Klein Halevi (31:40)

That's right.

Daniel Hartman (31:40)

That's a very interesting correction that you give back because he's running for election in his own time.

Yossi Klein Halevi (31:44)

This is extremist politics. Is never responsible for the real world.

Daniel Hartman (31:48)

You're never responsible for the real world. So the opposition, if you're not responsible, you could say whatever you want to say. But Netanyahu knows, he knows that he's profoundly limited and so he could posture and say, yes, I'm the Prime Minister of Israel and I have instructed my foreign minister to speak to the Secretary of State to express our displeasure and who at the end talks to Rubio Netanyahu. So to his credit, he understands how he navigates this. His whole Persona in Israel is, I got you. Netanyahu is in my hands and therefore Israel is in my hands and it is safe. Don't worry, I don't need a policy. I am the security that Israel needs. And what that means. When you're in Trump's world, it just doesn't mean that much anymore. How we're going to navigate, how we're going to move. I don't know. Trump's world is a challenging world at best. Stay tuned, my friends. Yossi, a pleasure being with you.

Yossi Klein Halevi (32:52)

Great to be with you.

Podcast Host (32:54)

Imagine a gap year that's not a detour, but a launchpad. At the Shalom Hartman Institute's Chavuta gap year program, students spend the year after high school in the heart of Jerusalem, imagination immersed in serious Beit Midrash, learning with Hartman's world class faculty, including leaders such as Daniel Hartman, Tal Becker and Ilana Steinhain. Blending community leadership and rigorous learning, Kavuta pushes students from North America and Israel to grapple with the most significant questions facing the Jewish people and a Jewish and democratic Israel. If you're looking for a gap year where you're challenged, grounded and ready for campus and beyond, learn more and apply@shalomhartman.org Gap year, here are some other things that are happening at the Shalom Hartman Institute Arbe Drach in New York buzzed with activity this week as we hosted our mid year Student Leadership Summit where dozens of college students from different campuses gather for training, community building and learning with Hartman faculty. These student leaders have been supporting Hartman's work this year through campus Ambassadorship, Asmadri Chaim in our Teen Fellowship and embedded as team members in different parts of our organization, everything from the KOGOD Research center to the marketing team that promotes this podcast. We are especially excited to launch our new Camp Counselor internship at six different camps this summer. We wish them a productive semester and Summer of Growth and leadership.

Daniel Goodman (34:18)

For Heaven's Sake is a product of the Shalom Hartman Institute and ARC Media. It is produced by me, Daniel Goodman, with help from Miriam Jacobs, Adar Taylor Schechter and Aviva Kat Manore and studio support from Go Live Media. Our episode was edited by Seth Stein, Maital Friedman is our Executive producer and our music was composed by Yuval Sama. Past episodes can be found@arcmedia.org where you can explore more of Arc Media's podcasts. You can watch the video versions of our episodes on our YouTube channel. Follow the YouTube link in the Show Notes. Also, to receive updates on new episodes, please follow the link to arcmedia.org and subscribe to Arc Media's weekly newsletter. For more ideas from the Shalom Hartman Institute, visit our website@shalomhartman.org.