Waiting

Summary

For Heaven’s Sake – “Waiting”

Shalom Hartman Institute & Ark Media / February 25, 2026
Hosts: Daniil Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi

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Overview

This episode, titled "Waiting," explores the collective psychological, political, and moral state of Israel during a period of anxious suspense around potential conflict with Iran. With Israeli society caught between uncertainty and expectation—amid intense media speculation, global power plays, and ever-present existential threats—Daniil and Yossi examine how waiting shapes the national psyche, its historical precedents, and its moral implications for the future of Zionism and Jewish life.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Texture of Waiting in Israel

• Intensity of Uncertainty: Israelis experience an all-consuming state of waiting, saturated by rumor, news cycles, and conflicting "inside information." Unlike elsewhere, this anxiety is immediate and personal—it's "life and death." (01:22)
• Media Frenzy: News cycles update every few minutes, amplifying collective angst rather than clarity. Every alleged “inside tip” or military movement becomes fodder for speculation.
  • Daniil: "Here, like, you have a lead for the next three minutes. And one changes it. And then all of a sudden everybody else changes." (04:14)
• Satire and the Ordinary: Satirical takes and humor circulate about everyone knowing “someone who knows” when action will begin—be it a cab driver, the plumber’s sister, or unverifiable “military sources.”
  • Yossi: "Donnie Sanderson... had a great clip... I want to thank all the cab drivers... Yossi the plumber's sister." (08:30)

2. Historical Echoes: The Legacy of "The Waiting Period"

• T’kufat Hamtana, 1967: The present is compared to the pre-Six Day War period—a time of existential fear, military buildup, and national unity under threat.
  • Yossi: "In May 1967... ‘the waiting period’... Israel hesitated... There was tremendous pressure from the grassroots to do it already. Let’s hit them." (13:13)
• Difference Today: Unlike 1967, the Israeli government already claimed “total victory” in the recent “12 Day War,” yet the existential unease remains, creating a sense of “reversed waiting”—the supposed victory did not bring the anticipated security or closure.
  • Yossi: "Now we have a waiting period after the total victory... I sense in all of us a deep disorientation." (16:13)

3. The Ambiguity and Futility of Military Solutions

• Limits of Force: Both hosts wrestle with whether military action can truly resolve the Iranian threat, given Iran’s advanced capabilities, ideological persistence, and ability to rebuild.
  • Daniil: "Military force has its limits, and I’m just wondering when we're going to come to terms with it." (03:38, 29:27)
• Existential Anxiety: The psychological burden of being surrounded by enemies whose motivations are not merely political but rooted in messianic or ideological fervor, raising the question of whether regime change or deterrence is possible.

4. Regime Change: Hope and Skepticism

• Yossi’s Argument: Iran’s regime has "lost legitimacy among the majority, maybe the large majority, of its own people," suggesting that its fall is a matter of "when, not if." He draws contrast with Hamas, arguing that for Iran, internal collapse may be more feasible.
  • Yossi: "This regime has lost legitimacy... it’s just a question of time before this regime falls." (23:56)
• Daniil’s Challenge: Questions whether even this offers a guaranteed outcome, mediating hope with realism.
  • Daniil: "...There are limits in which a conventional army could achieve... what are the limits of power?" (28:41)

5. Living in an Unredeemed World

• Messianic Hopes vs. Reality: The desire for security and "final victory" has a messianic flavor. Both hosts ponder if Israelis (and Zionism) must develop the moral muscles to live with unfixable threats.
  • Daniil: "...Is there some deep messianic impulse to live in a world in which this evil is gone and that messianic impulse is at the end going to be destructive? The question is, how do we deal with it? This is the old Jewish question: how do we live in an unredeemed world?" (29:27)
• Historical Openings—Rare but Real: Yossi recalls the fall of communism as evidence of rare historical moments ripe for transformation. The challenge is to recognize and act upon them, even though success is not guaranteed and costs may be high.
  • Yossi: "There are openings in history. There are moments, very rare and fleeting moments, and you have to seize those moments." (32:05)

6. American Policy and Narrative

• Dependency and Despair: The sense of waiting is compounded by Israel’s reliance on US decisions—particularly President Trump’s policy, motivations, and communications.
• Dangers of Narrative: Both raise alarms about the framing of another Iran conflict as “Israel’s war” in US politics, citing historical and contemporary examples of anti-Jewish conspiracy theories and the fragility of American Jewish security.
  • Yossi: "That's an accusation that goes back in America to the 1930s... What makes this such a dangerous moment today... is that now the accusation of warmongers is coming from both left and right." (34:13)

7. The Broader Moral and Jewish Question

• The episode frames waiting not simply as a strategic interlude, but as a moral and spiritual challenge: How can Jews—and Israelis in particular—navigate the tension between vigilance against threats, the temptation of illusory solutions, and the patience required to outlast enduring dangers?

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Yossi Klein Halevi [01:22; 12:12]:
  "This notion of Israelis hoping it will happen... there's something heroic about that because we're going to get hit. We're the front line and everywhere else... it's a theoretical debate... Here, it's life and death."

• Daniil Hartman [03:38, 29:27]:
  "Military force has its limits, and I'm just wondering when we're going to come to terms with it."

• Yossi Klein Halevi [13:13]:
  "...when you look at Israeli history, the waiting period... has very deep resonance... Israel hesitated... Arab armies converging..."

• Daniil Hartman [18:57]:
  "Now all of a sudden, there's Pickaxe Mountain... so now I have to worry about Pickaxe Mountain... it's like the Three Little Pigs, you know, you're going to huff and puff..."

• Yossi Klein Halevi [23:56]:
  "Iran, this regime has lost the legitimacy to rule among the majority, maybe the large majority, of its own people... it's just a question of time before this regime falls."

• Daniil Hartman [29:27]:
  "...is there some deep messianic impulse to live in a world in which this evil is gone and that messianic impulse is at the end going to be destructive... how do we readjust to live in a non redeemed world?"

• Yossi Klein Halevi [32:05]:
  "...there are openings in history. There are moments, very rare and fleeting moments, and you have to seize them."

• Yossi Klein Halevi [34:13]:
  "That's an accusation that goes back in America to the 1930s... What makes this such a dangerous moment today... is that now the accusation of warmongers is coming from both left and right."

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:22] – Opening: The emotional reality of waiting in Israel; the difference with American and diaspora Jewish discourse
• [07:14] – The rumor mill: humor, satire, and the omnipresence of speculation in daily life
• [13:13] – Historical parallel: The 1967 waiting period and its cultural resonance—songs, collective panic, and mass graves
• [16:09] – The "12 Day War" myth and sense of reversed historical process
• [18:56] – New worries: “Pickaxe Mountain” and the moving target of existential threats
• [23:56] – Regime change in Iran: possibility, hope, and limitations
• [29:27] – Military power, messianic thinking, and the challenge of living with perpetual danger
• [32:05] – Historical openings: learning from the fall of communism
• [34:13] – The American narrative, anti-Jewish tropes, and dangers for Israel and world Jewry

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Conclusion

The episode closes with a sense of resignation: “After all the analyses, we go back to our sources and whisperings and nightmares and waiting and waiting” ([39:07]). For Israelis, waiting is not idleness; it is a dynamic, emotionally fraught state of vigilance—battling uncertainty, fear, and the limitations of power. The hosts challenge each other—and listeners—to consider what it means to build a responsible Jewish future in a world that cannot be wholly redeemed, and to prepare morally and intellectually for a time when the waiting may never end.

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For listeners, "Waiting" offers a moving window into Israeli existential anxiety, the dangers of both action and inaction, the importance of narrative, and the enduring question of how to live morally and resiliently amidst uncertainty.

Transcript

[Daniil Hartman]

Hi, friends. At the Sholem Hartman Institute, we believe that Jewish life thrives when we engage courageously and honestly with the moral and spiritual challenges of our time. For me, the work of building a Judaism that is intellectually vibrant, ethically serious, and infused with hope is not just a professional calling. It is a commitment to our shared future. Each summer, our Community Leadership program turns Jerusalem into a Beit Midrash of ideas and a laboratory of leadership. Learners and leaders from across the Jewish world come together to study, to question, to argue, and ultimately to imagine a more meaningful and more responsible Jewish future. This year, I invite you to join me from July 1st to July 7th to explore the ideas and values that can anchor us in this complicated moment. You'll learn with me and with my extraordinary colleagues and with a community bound together by curiosity, purpose and possibility, space is Limited. Visit sholemhartman.org CLP to reserve your spot. Hope to see you there.

[Elana Steinhein]

You are listening to an art media podcast.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

This notion of Israelis hoping it will happen, there's something heroic about that because we're going to get hit. We're the front line and everywhere else, even in America, it's a theoretical debate, it's an abstract debate. Here, it's life and death.

[Daniil Hartman]

As I sit here and wait, I'm wondering what I'm waiting for. Yossi. Are we waiting for a change in our reality? Are we deluding ourselves again? Military force has its limits, and I'm just wondering when we're going to come to terms with it.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

There are openings in history. There are moments, very rare and fleeting moments, and you have to seize those moments.

[Daniil Hartman]

Hi, friends. This is Daniil Hartman and Yossi Kleine Levi from the Sholem Hartman Institute. And this is our podcast, for heaven's sake, in collaboration with ARK Media. Before we start, we have a quick note of housekeeping. As you know, our show is part of ARC Media. It's an extended universe of podcasts that includes Dan Sonor's Call Me Back and what's yous Number. ARC Media is growing with a specific goal in mind. Becoming the Jewish town square, a place for meaningful conversation and debate and for fostering a real connection throughout Israel and the Jewish world. To better build this, our friends at ARK Media asked us to share a listener survey with you. The survey takes only a couple of minutes to fill and is entirely anonymous. Your answers will give the ARK team a better understanding of what can be improved and what needs building. These surveys really make a difference. Also, as an additional incentive, if you complete the survey, you can opt in to Win a special gift from Box Jerusalem. The link for the survey is in your show notes. Thank you. Today's Tuesday, February 24, and our theme, like is so often the case is dictated to us by reality. And we called our theme waiting because that's where Israelis are. We're waiting now. We're waiting to find out what our world is going to look like, how we're going to feel in that world. What does the future hold for us all focused around Iran, and what President Trump is going to decide is in America's interests. Now, this waiting period has so many interesting dimensions to it. One of the more fascinating is how every hour or so or two hours, across every one of Israel's news sites, there's a headline about what's going to happen.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

And it's always authoritative and it's always definitive.

[Daniil Hartman]

It's like, or it's definitive about, we don't know who wants it. Like, what are we going to do? When are we going to do it, how we're going to do it? Is it going to happen now? Is it going to happen now? Maybe it's not going to happen. It's actually not all definitive. It's this angst permeated discourse because it's not up to us. And we're just trying to glean one second. Does the head of the chief of staff's Clark, is he for it? Is he against it? Who said he's for it? Someone said he's against it. Is he completely for it? Does he think it's going to be easy? Is it going to be hard? When is it going to happen? Is it going to happen Tuesday? Oops. Now they're just announcing that there's going to be another discussion. It's every two hours, you know, when you watch the New York Times or even Fox News, there's, you know, once a day, you know, news once a day, we're changing, you know, and it's still on the snow or it's still Epstein or in Fox News, it's still somehow immigrants who are somehow ruining the world or whatever it might be, there's some story and it just, you have a lead for the day here. Like you have a lead for the next three minutes. And one changes it. And then all of a sudden everybody else changes.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

And meanwhile, nothing has actually happened yet.

[Daniil Hartman]

So we're waiting. And this waiting is, you know, it's not like we're sitting on the side. We're just waiting. You know, let's see. It's not our hands. We'll eventually know. No, no. The process in the middle is a perpetual analysis of what potentially might happen, when the waiting will stop. And it's changing all the time, you know. For a careful, factual analysis of what might happen, could happen and should happen, I'd like to recommend again Dan's podcast with Mark Dubowitz and Nadava Yal. Really, really careful, thoughtful analysis of all the different options. What might happen, what might happen and what are the consequences of it. I'd also like to recommend two New York Times op eds, Bret Stephens. Phenomenal analysis about the nature of the discourse in America and what are some of its flaws and what are some of the interests, as well as Ruel. Mark Grecht, I think it's Grecht or Grecht. I don't know if he's. I hope I'm pronunciating it right about how weak or powerful the regime is. Those three are a great background for our conversation because what we want to talk about is we're waiting. What does it feel like to wait in this strange environment where we're sort of trying to glean the latest certainty from some tip that some newspaper person heard from somebody, you know, like in the temple, there was a term called beyond the pargod, this curtain which God was hiding behind. Well, the decisions are made behind this curtain and here we are. So, Yossi, let's start. How is Israel coping? How do you feel Israel is coping?

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

Well, the discourse that you're describing in the media permeates the whole society. Everyone knows someone who knows for sure when this is going to happen. My son said to me the other day, he has a friend in the Air Force and all leave has been suspended. It's happening tonight. And I was sure it didn't happen. And then I look on X and there's a guy who, one of the people that I follow, who's actually a satirical writer, and he says, and with tremendous confidence, I have a cousin who works at military headquarters. He says, it's tonight. And me, what do I do? I believe it. I said, Sperling said, so you know, so do you remember getting all ready?

[Daniil Hartman]

Do you remember? I think it was three weeks ago at the end of the podcast. You let it drop, Senator. Thursday night I.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

My information is, I deny it completely.

[Daniil Hartman]

It's on the record. You can't. Here it is. I know they've told them Thursday night, put the hospitals. So you were one of the sort. Now I know that you're getting your sources from who?

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

X. From X?

[Daniil Hartman]

From who on X? Whose Sisters, brothers.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

That's exactly. Donnie Sanderson, one of the great heroic rock figures in the history of Israeli music, had a great clip. I is what I sent to you the other day where he says, I want to thank all the people who are providing us with such solid information. I want to thank all the cab drivers. I want to thank Yossi the plumber. I want to thank Yossi the plumber's sister. I want to thank whoever it is thinks they know, Yossi the plumber's sister.

[Daniil Hartman]

All of them have. Both have terrific information for telling us

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

what about when the.

[Daniil Hartman]

For telling us that it's going to happen tonight.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

Tonight at 2:20. Tonight at 2:20. So Daniil, just to give you an idea, it's insane.

[Daniil Hartman]

Yossi, I can't. You people, you're. You're living in normal worlds. You have no idea what's going on here.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

Danielle. But just to give you an idea of how deeply this seeps into our unconscious, I had a dream the other night. And in the dream my wife Sarah wakes me up and says it's begun. And I wake up in real life. I wake up from this dream and I look at the clock. It's 1am but the war's begun. I would, you know, was the dream telling me something. So what do you do? You get out of bed, the night's finished anyway, I go into my office and I'm sure something's about to happen. And that's how I spent the night, waiting. You can't go back to sleep. So this is. If you look at Israeli society from the outside, everybody's normal. We're going through our daily lives and you hear from Israelis, you know, what's he waiting for? Already I have things to do, you know, do it already.

[Daniil Hartman]

I have a bar mitzvah, I have a trip. So I. Because I'm aware that your sources are fundamentally untrustworthy. You're listening to one of these days, one of these. Yeah, it's like a clock is right, you know, even the broken clock is right one time, twice, oh, twice a day. So it might happen. So you know, I have a much more sophisticated system. So first of all I concentrate on official media. But I also have two or three sources. And these are the sources who know when Israel's evacuating the non critical soldiers from military bases. Who knows when we are moving divisions of the army up north, like so I'm only basing myself on the serious people. Now this person has already told me eight times that it's happening.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

And the truth Is look, they did remove non essential personnel from this. They've done it already.

[Daniil Hartman]

So it's like, but so I, you know, my, you'll see, I have certain standards and so I only really listen to those who have the inside actual military. But this person himself, to his credit now after telling me Danille Tuesday, 3 to Sunday, he says, but now, but only one person knows. So we're waiting to figure out what one person knows. And this story, you know, we're making fun of it, but the truth is it give you a heart attack. It's like, it's just, it could make you crazy. It really can. It has a certain insanity to it because it's going to happen, you know, or what. It's just so totally out of our control. What do you feel it means to be like, okay, this is the story, but what does it mean to be in this reality of this waiting, this pre war reality that almost all of Israel hopes in many ways that it will happen. So what's your take on it, by the way?

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

This notion of Israelis hoping it will happen? There's something I think really heroic about that if you think about it, because we're going to get hit. We're the front line and everywhere else this is in some sense, even in America, it's a theoretical debate, it's an abstract debate. Here it's life and death. There was a big banner that hung on, I think it was on the Ayalon on the Tel Aviv highway. In English, Mr. Trump, finish the job. And I looked at that and I said, finish the job. It's going to be finishing it on you, on Tel Aviv. And yet it gives me this really, this sense of such profound respect for the society.

[Daniil Hartman]

But there's also a maturity because there is an understanding, okay, we're going to get hit, we're going to get hurt. But what we're dealing with here, there's something momentous, there's a moment, there's a life transforming reality. And I want to get into this. We also understand what it means to live in the neighborhood of Iran. But please continue.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

There's this, you know, when you look at Israeli history, the waiting period, what in Hebrew t' kufatam tana has very deep resonance. In May 1967, the three weeks leading up to the Six Day War, in retrospect is called Kufat Antana, the waiting period. And Israel hesitated. It was surrounded on three sides. Arab armies were converging on Israel's borders. The Straits of Tiran, Israel's shipping route to the east was blockaded and one country after another was abandoning Israel. France, which was Israel's greatest ally in the pre American Israeli era, turned against Israel and initiated an arms embargo. President Johnson told Israel, if you attack, you're on your own. And so the Israeli government hesitated. Meanwhile, the reservists were waiting. Hundreds of thousands of reservists were called up. This is in a country of less than 3 million people in those years. And there was tremendous pressure from the grassroots to do it already. Let's hit them. Launch a preemptive strike. There's a whole culture that emerged from the waiting period. There are songs. There's one of the great Israeli satirical songs, Nasser is Waiting for Rabin. Nasser was the president of Egypt. Yitzhak Rabin at the time was the IDF commander in chief. And Nasser had announced very bombastically, I'm waiting for Rabin. So they came out with a song. Nasser is waiting for Robin. Ay ay, yai yai. Exactly. Let him wait. We're on our way. And of course we were. And there was this tremendous sense of morale boosting. But at the same time, and this is something we don't remember as well, people were in a panic. This was less than 20 years after the Holocaust, and many, many Israelis, and I know this from my relatives who were survivors, and I visited Israel that summer right after the war, and I saw the after effects, the trauma.

[Daniil Hartman]

Weren't they digging thousands and thousands of graves?

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

Public parks were turned into potential sites of mass graves. And so Kufatam tana is what is supposed to precede the knockout blow, the great victory, which is what happened, of course, in 1967. What's happening today is we're living the reverse of the waiting period. We already had what was supposed to have been what our government promised us was the absolute victory. What do they call it? The total victory.

[Daniil Hartman]

The 12 day war. They're playing with the six day war.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

That's right.

[Daniil Hartman]

Because we don't normally call wars by days.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

That's right.

[Daniil Hartman]

So this. It was deliberate. It was deliberate to reference Six Day.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

And Netanyahu has tried so far, unsuccessfully, to change the name of the war from the October 7 war, which is how everyone calls it, to the war of resurrection, rebirth, rebirth, Victory. Right. And he always spoke about a total victory. And now we have a waiting period after the total victory, after the 12 Day War. That's not the way this is supposed to work. So I sense in all of us a deep disorientation. And there's one more element here. Daniil, which is, wait a minute. We just went through two of the worst years in Israel's history, and we were stoic and we were resilient, and we did it. And then it ended. The hostages came home, we celebrated, and it was supposed to be over. And you're telling me that not only is it not over, but we actually didn't destroy the nuclear program in Iran? I thought that was a done deal. Trump said so. Netanyahu strongly hinted that it was a done deal. And now Hezbollah is back in the picture. You mean we didn't destroy Hezbollah's capabilities. There's still a force to be reckoned with. We're still worried about Hezbollah missiles. Well, what's happened in the last two years? So this waiting period has not only been reversed, but in some way the process has been undone. And I think there's a profound sense of disorientation, of unreality.

[Daniil Hartman]

You know, as I hear you talk, I really appreciate it. And in general, I've learned a lot from you about not only what to think, but what to feel about Iran, because Iran was one of those things I didn't want to feel anything about. It just wasn't on my map. And I think October 7th has changed a deep part of Israeli psyche in which if there's something to worry about, you better worry about it. You better, like, don't ignore existential problems. Don't pass them down the line. Don't try to cover them up by thinking you're going to pay them off or something. Problems are serious problems in Iran. Its whole role in these last three years has placed it as the central destabilizing force in our life. So I'm with you on that. But as I sit here and wait, I'm wondering what I'm waiting for. Yossi, I spent a lot of time learning about getting Fordo, Natanz and Isfahan.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

That was good.

[Daniil Hartman]

That was good, right? I wrote it down. I got them a few months ago. I could say it off by heart. It was like a mantra. I'm good. Now all of a sudden, there's Pickaxe Mountain. Who here heard of Pickaxe Mountain? I only learned that I listened to Dan's podcast. Now I'm all aggravated. There's a Pickaxe Mountain, and Pickaxe Mountain is worse than all of the above. The Pickaxe Mountain is so deep underground that even the mega, super, super, mega, mega, mega bunker bombers aren't going to get there. You know, it's like the Three Little Pigs. You know, you're going to huff and puff. The Iranians finally found the mountain that we could huff and puff and you're not going to blow our house down. And they're digging and they're digging. So now I have to worry about Pickaxe Mountain. And it's a strange name. I thought it was in Montana. What does pickaxe like this is Iran. And it turns out it has a whole name that I'm not even going to try to pronunciate. But, but if Mark could call it Pickaxe Mountain, I could call it Pickaxe Mountain. So I have another thing to worry about. And you know, some of my skepticism is returning my pre Yossi conversion skepticism. And that is part of what this waiting period means is are we waiting for a change in our reality? Are we deluding ourselves again? You know, you said we thought that the 12 Day War was the complete victory. So what are we saying now? There's going to be what a two week or a one day or a special thing that's going to bring this victory. And you know, one of the things that I don't want to think about, but it's a very significant issue. What happens when you have on your border a jihadi messianic regime who religiously wants you dead and wants you dead to a level that has nothing to do with their self interest. That's what they do. They wake up in the morning and they think about how do I destroy you? And even if I'm destroying myself in the media, it just doesn't bother me. This country is not some backward little country. They're sophisticated, technologically advanced. So let's say you bomb like last time we bombed, right? And we got all of their missiles or we got all their missile launchers and we all became real experts. You don't have to get all the missiles, you just have to get the missile launchers so that it could lower the we, you know, everybody, it's like, you know, whatever. It's part of Israeli society as we master the arts of, of warfare. And now with China, they have 2,000 or in two days they're going to have 2,000. It's like another. They're going to have 2,000 missiles. And we know also that it's cheaper for them to build a missile, a ballistic missile, than it is for us to build an arrow missile and they could build theirs quicker. The we're in trouble. So let's say we do another operation and let's say Pickaxe Mountain is gone. Somehow we got through Special op, we got rid of Pickaxe Mountain, and let's say we got rid of 2,000 missiles. In three years time, there should be another president. They're going to rebuild and let's say even now they agree, zero enrichment, Oops, we changed our mind in three years time and they'll start. And is the world going to do it again? And is there going to be a president like Trump now? We don't know. We don't know if by the time we go to air whether an operation will have started or not. Like, we don't know anything. You know, even the newspapers, I think, are getting tired of changing their headlines. It's just, it's for nothing. So at what moment, Yossi, do we say, you know, this is our destiny, you know, and I don't like it. It's like the Iron Dome story. I'm all in. Do whatever it is that we need to do in order to protect ourselves. But this notion that anything short of regime change in Iran, which we'll talk about, I don't even know if this operation is going to achieve that or not. What the goals, unless they're gone, there's really no safety. And maybe like you spoke about Hezbollah, that's all we can get. And I know it's not good enough and I know we deserve better, but I'm starting to worry again about these fantasies of military operations. And that's what I saw when President Trump, God, on TV and with the one bombing of the B2s, said it's all gone. And we all knew it wasn't. Everybody knew, but we weren't allowed to say because we don't want to hurt his feelings. And we're really appreciative, even though a nuclear Iran, and I could say this from now to kingdom come, but it's not an Israeli issue. This is as much a Saudi issue, it's as much a European issue. You want this force here, but let's say for us, I don't want it. But still, at what point do we just stop and just say that's what it is?

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

So, Daniil, let me suggest to you something counterintuitive. When we spoke over the last two years about Gaza, you remember one of our early arguments was over the question of can the Hamas regime be brought down? And I said, yes, and we have to act as if it can be. And you said, no, you were right. And one of the reasons, in retrospect, that you were right is because there still apparently is deep support within the Palestinian people for Hamas Iran, this regime has lost the legitimacy to rule among the majority, maybe the large majority of its own people. And so in that sense, it's just a question of time before this regime falls. Now, if you had asked me before this war began, which regime do you think will be more difficult for Israel to topple, Iran or Hamas? Obviously, it would have been Iran. Now, I still believe it's going to be very difficult. And one of the op EDS that you cited from the New York Times, Ruel Marc Gorecht, who's really one of the smartest people out there on Iran, and anything he writes about Iran, one should read. His point is it's going to be a lot more complicated than Trump apparently thinks. And I think that that's an important wake up call. At the same time, this regime has, in losing its legitimacy decisively among its own people. I think that it's just not a question of if, but when it falls. If we now have a constellation in place, and I think this is the intuition within the Israeli public, if we don't do it now, it's not going to happen. And whatever the consequences are, and you're right, 2,000 ballistic missiles, if that's what it is, we don't know, you know, but that's the worst case scenario.

[Daniil Hartman]

My sources.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

Okay, well, that's a level of devastation that we've never experienced on the home front. And you know, when we used to speculate about what war with Iran would be like, that was the nightmare scenario. It hasn't happened yet. We got a very small taste of it in the 12 Day War, and it was devastating. This really could be a nightmare. But, you know, when people would say, and you would say this too, you can't uproot an ideology. You know, when we were talking about,

[Daniil Hartman]

I never said that, by the way.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

Ah, so, okay, so other people, that was it.

[Daniil Hartman]

Because my critique is different.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

Okay, so other critics, I'll come to that in a moment. But other critics would tell us, you can't uproot an ideology. And there was an argument to be made there. In Iran, the ideology has been uprooted by the regime itself. And so it has left an opening and people are desperate. Look at what's happening in the last days at universities in Iran after losing as many as 30,000 people. The students are back and it's extraordinary to watch. It's so moving to see this courage. And so this is the moment.

[Daniil Hartman]

This is the moment. I want to challenge that a little bit. First of all, I don't think that Hamas hasn't been defeated because there's support for Hamas. I think actually the support for Hamas is one of the few successes of this war. And we can see in the polls how at the beginning of the war what percentage support Hamas and what percentage support it now. And the average Gazan would love to live in Iran right now with all of their devaluing of their currency and the. They would love the reality of what an Iranian has and the benefits that they could improve by being a citizen of Iran. The average citizen of Gaza asks, I'm

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

going to leave that statement unchallenged.

[Daniil Hartman]

Fair enough.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

But by commenting that I'm going to leave it unchallenged. I have implicitly challenged it.

[Daniil Hartman]

Fair enough, fair enough. But at least it gives me the last word on this.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

Yes, it does.

[Daniil Hartman]

Okay. Because we don't want to get into that factual debate. It doesn't really matter. But the average Gazan asks himself, has Hamas done well by me or has not done well by me? Is my life better? And just take a look at Gaza. The reason why Hamas has not been defeated is not because of the indigenous support. They're emerging using brutal tactics because they're the only armed force that exists right now. The reason why Hamas hasn't been defeated is because there are limits in which a conventional army could achieve.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

Fair enough, fair enough.

[Daniil Hartman]

What it could be. And because we didn't have a plan to put someone else in place and we still don't have a plan because we don't want any Palestinians. But who else? The Indonesians are now going to protect Israel and they're going to fight Hamas. So. So I think the issue is, and this is pertains to Iran, what are the limits of power and to what extent could that achieve what you want it to. There's a temptation and I appreciate the temptation. But as I'm looking at this now, I still, I want us to try again. I'm not saying not. I want Israel to try. I hope America thinks that it's in their interest to try. And I'm not a big believer that let's just do a little bit of damage and then bring you to the negotiating table.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

It doesn't work with Iran because with

[Daniil Hartman]

Iran they're going to come to the negotiating table and they'll wait two, three years and life's fine. That's okay. But I don't want to get into analysis of what Iran is going to do or not do because it really is way beyond my pay grade. Listen to the things that I referenced beforehand. But military Force has its limits, and I'm just wondering when we're going to come to terms with it. And it's frustrating and so we'll do another round and we'll keep on trying. But I'm wondering whether there is some deep messianic impulse to live in a world in which this evil is gone and that messianic impulse is at the end going to be destructive. And the question is, how do we deal with it? This is the old Jewish question, how do we live in an unredeemed world? And Zionism said, I'm going to give you a redeemed world. And the Israeli army promises you a redeemed world. When I think part of what we're going to have to confront and there'll be another operation, maybe there'll be regime change. You know, you speak about they've lost their legitimacy. I don't know. You know, I know they're still radical Shiites, you know, they have people, it's not a simple monolithic community who are up for a secular liberal democracy. So I hope that you're right. But in the event that you're not, I think the question is, how do we readjust to live in a non redeemed world?

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

You're right. I mean, I certainly have a messianic streak. And one of the reasons for that is what I've experienced. And it's not only 1967 that I remember. I also remember 1989. I spent 1989, 1990 as a journalist working in Eastern Europe, and I was following the falling communist dominoes. I started in Poland in October 1989, when the first revolution succeeded in overthrowing communism, which was inconceivable. Next, I went to Berlin when the Wall fell, and I was there watching the crowds pouring through the Wall, and everyone was in a state of wonder and no one could believe that this was actually happening and that it happened without any bloodshed. Now, that, of course, is not going to be the case here, but I know that from experience that there are openings in history. There are moments, very rare and fleeting moments, and you have to seize them

[Daniil Hartman]

and you have to. Now, I'm all for trying. I feel like we haven't exhausted yet. I'm not saying give up. I do agree that there are possibilities, you know, and as our colleague Tal often says, he says it, I'm not going to quote him exactly where he says change before it happens seems impossible, and after it happens, it seems inevitable, something like that. And so it might be at this moment, but I want to ask one last question of you because it's another concern that I have. And Bret Stephens raised this as well in his article. What is the internal American justification for this war and what impact could it have on Israel when Trump was setting his red line? You're shooting the demonstrators. We're with you. And everybody knows. Since we all have, whether it was the plumber or the hairdresser or my insider military sources, we know was maybe four weeks ago Thursday night the attack was about to happen. The decision was made and at the last minute it was changed. Probably because they realized that at that time some attack would not have brought about a game changing result. And they decided to do something far more significant which gave the possibility of something more transformational. Up till now, this is 101 of what every Israeli knows on the basis of our sources. But the demonstration stopped. And so the connection of why go to war has also been broken. The self evidence of it. And so bringing back the nuclear issue, it seems strange. So now these student demonstrations are being coordinated. It's to reclaim some moment that was lost, to reclaim some moral passion. Interesting. Maybe I'm afraid of a narrative in which we're going to war for Israel again.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

Yeah, yeah.

[Daniil Hartman]

There's no it's for us again. And really that is equally frightening to me because the consequence of that, not now in this administration, but in the next election, that's a story. Talk about an existential danger for Israel. How do you understand this whole conversation and its impact on us and the world?

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

That story is already out there. It's out there on the left, it's out there on the anti Israel right. And there's no way to counter that story. There's no way to stop that story. Especially when you have a president who seems to be inarticulate in explaining what this is all about from an American perspective. And I think that he made a fundamental mistake in moving the goalpost from warning the regime not to massacre its own citizens to bringing back the nuclear issue. And I've said this before in our conversations here, which is that for me there are three distinct phases in our war with Iran. And when I say our war with Iran, the war that began on October 7th was not primarily the war with Hamas or even with Hezbollah. It was the Israeli Iranian war. And the first phase, which was reasonably successful, was neutralizing what we used to call the ring of fire of Iranian proxies around our border. The second phase was dealing with the nuclear threat. That was the 12 day war. This third and final phase is bringing the regime down. And now Trump, by going to negotiations, by shifting back to the second phase, which was the nuclear issue, has undermined his own argument. So I'm very worried about that. In terms of being accused of being the warmongers, that's an accusation that goes back in America to the 1930s. The America First Committee, the isolationist movements headed by Lindbergh. Henry Ford accused American Jewry of trying to push America into war with Nazi Germany. And it was ludicrous. Then American Jews had virtually no political clout.

[Daniil Hartman]

That's right.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

But that accusation took deep root certainly on the American right in those years. What makes this such a dangerous moment today, more dangerous in that sense than the 30s in America, dangerous for American Jews and for Israel, is that now the accusation of warmongers is coming from, from both left and right. And I think we're just going to have to recognize that this is what's coming and it's going to be a very, very difficult fallout from this war. And with all of that, I believe we have no choice with that.

[Daniil Hartman]

I'm with you. I would. Maybe we'll end this podcast. There are things that are out of our hands. We have to wait. We're waiting. We're waiting and collecting our information. But we're also waiting for America to tell a story about this war that fits the complexity and the reality in American interests. Maybe there we don't have to wait as much. I'm not saying Israel itself, but you know, as where there's these multi front wars that we're fighting. Part of the story is who do we have out there who's articulating another story? So we all heard. Or those of you who could, could tolerate listening to Tucker Carlson interview Ambassador Huckleby where I discovered that the war in Iraq was for Israel.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

Oh, that was the last time. The organization. That was a new one.

[Daniil Hartman]

That was a new one because the ambassador asked when did America put boots on the ground for Israel? And he said the war in Iraq. And Huckleby, like lost, like didn't know. Like really that's not the story. So he actually looked insane on this pun. Like he looked disturbed. And so lies are out there. But this is another front. And the front of this war is not just when it's going to happen. What are we going to attack? Is it going to be enough? Should we be happy with this or that? What is the story that America tells about its own interests? And you know, as you read the survey, the Wall Street Journal today had a very important op ed where the MAGA Republicans are for regime change. 60 something percent. So Tucker Carlson doesn't own the Republican Party and we have to remember that. But we need to start getting smart for ourselves. It's not just do we have enough missiles, what is the story we're telling? Whether it's going to help or not, I hope you and I aren't going to have to keep on talking. I hope this will be something in the past. My feeling is that it might not and we're going to have to learn how to live with it. And part of learning how to live with it is taking Iran off of the notion that this is an Israeli agenda and the anti Semites will say what they're going to say. But we have a lot of friends and they're not telling the story that needs to be told right now and that needs to change as well. Is there some last word that do you want to share? Yossi?

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

I think that that sums it up. After all the analyses, we go back to our sources and whisperings and and nightmares and waiting and waiting. Okay, people waiting. You'll see.

[Daniil Hartman]

A pleasure to be with you.

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

It's great to be with you.

[Elana Steinhein]

What are we supposed to do and say and be during this time?

[Daniil Hartman]

Judaism has so much complexity to it and so many layers to it that

[Daniel Goodman]

no one layer stands by itself.

[Elana Steinhein]

What you have is Jews who for the very first time feel like their value system is out of sync with the broader sector. I'm your host, Elana Steinhein. Welcome to Texting irl, where we wrestle with the dilemmas of Jewish life through the lens of classical and modern Torah texts. I am so fortunate that I have a friend and a colleague who I can talk to, Jacob Feinspan, Diana Ginsberg, Dalia Lithwick, helping us think through these big questions.

[Daniil Hartman]

Why are you guys part of this? What calls you personally to it?

[Yossi Kleine Levi]

What are some of the other things

[Daniil Hartman]

that you work on? What's at stake for you?

[Elana Steinhein]

I think one of the challenges is to figure out how much failed democracy we as Jews can tolerate.

[Daniil Hartman]

We have to find opportunities to make enemies into friends.

[Elana Steinhein]

The model is so majestic in this text.

[Daniil Hartman]

Listen now to Texting irl, a podcast from the Shalom Hartman Institute, available wherever you get your podcasts.

[Elana Steinhein]

Welcome to the Beauty of Jewish Interpretation.

[Daniil Hartman]

Exactly.

[Elana Steinhein]

Here are some other things that are happening at the Sholem Hartman Institute this week. Educators from summer camps, hillels and day schools across North America will gather for our first Winter Educational Impact Summit to explore and address the big questions and ideas facing Jewish educators today. This summit also marks the launch of the Hartman Educators Network, a growing community of Jewish educators who have engaged in our transformational learning experiences through ongoing learning, educational resources, and access to a diverse community of practice. The network will support educators as they translate Hartman ideas into their classrooms, institutions, and communities. On Thursday, March 12, the Hartman Institute will be hosting a virtual Day of Learning in the Face of Cruelty, Jewish Responsibilities to Neighbors and Strangers. Join us for four live sessions with Hartman scholars to illuminate how our tradition strengthens our response to this moment of profound moral urgency. We will explore how Jewish ethics, human dignity, and our responsibilities to one another guide us in responding to today's crisis. Find out more about the Day of Learning at the link in the Show Notes

[Daniel Goodman]

For Heaven's Sake is a product of the Shalom Hartman Institute and ARC Media. It is produced by me, Daniel Goodman, with help from Miriam Jacobs, Adar Taylor Schechter, and Aviva Kat Manore, and studio support from Go Live Media. Our episode was edited by Seth Stein, Natal Friedman is our executive producer and our music was composed by Yuval Sama. Past episodes can be [e-mail] where you can explore more of Arc Media's podcasts. You can watch the video versions of our episodes on our YouTube channel. Follow the YouTube link in the Show Notes. Also, to receive updates on new episodes, please follow the link to arcmedia.org and subscribe to Arc Media's weekly newsletter. For more ideas from the Shalom Hartman Institute, visit our [e-mail].