← For Heaven's Sake
Loading summary
Transcript46 lines
- [00:00]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Foreign.
- [00:04]
Daniil Hartman
You are listening to an art media podcast. Why was this parade different than every other parade? Why is it more than a parade?
- [00:15]
Yossi Klein Halevi
The Israel Day Parade is a good measure of what's changed in Jewish life since October 7th. Because in the past, there was nothing more innocuous. And the Israel Day Parade, it was a celebration and it was a feel good experience. And suddenly the Israel Day Parade is a little dangerous. I heard that there were groups that flew in from around the country to be there. So this was a statement. The question is, what kind of statement? What were Jews saying by showing up in such larger numbers, by showing up
- [00:50]
Daniil Hartman
so passionately, so much of the Israel conversation is a conversation about the problems, the questions. And I think the parade's power is to say, I'm allowed to have an unmediated relationship. You spoke about defiance. I want to speak about pride. I want to speak about a relationship. My relationship is not just through the problems alone. Hi, friends. This is Daniil Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi from the Sholem Hartman Institute. And this is our podcast, for heaven's sake, in collaboration with Arc Media. Today is Tuesday, June 2nd, and our podcast is shaped by Sunday, by Israel's Day Parade. And we're calling today's episode when the Israel Day Parade is more than a Parade. Now, it was clear to everybody, from the numbers of people who showed up to the extent of the coverage, not just in the Jewish news in New York and also in the general non Jewish news, and as well the extensive coverage in Israel that, you know, like we say at the beginning of the Seder Manishtana ha lalay la hazeh. How was this night different from every other night? You know, how was this parade different? Everybody knew that this parade was different. Whether it was from Mamdani's boycotting of the parade to the whole place of Israel today in America, in the world, the sense of Israel and Jewishness being under attack, it was clear that this parade was more than a normal parade. That was clear. And so we want to talk about what did this parade mean? How did we understand it? How do we understand it both for those who were there, but also how do we understand it in a larger context of the reality of Jewish life and of Zionism in this very, very fraught and difficult times? So, Yossi, how is this parade different? Why was this parade different than every other parade? Why is it more than a parade?
- [03:00]
Yossi Klein Halevi
The Israel Day Parade is a good measure of what's changed in Jewish life since October 7th. Because in the past, there was nothing more innocuous than the Israel Day Parade. It was a celebration and it was a feel good experience. It was harmless. There was no edge. To was one of the few Jewish events that actually felt parva, you know, neutral in some way. All embracing marching bands. And then. And suddenly the Israel Day Parade is a little dangerous. It's also dangerous physically. There was unprecedented level of security. And Daniil, you and I, you know, we're graduates of the parade. We were talking before the podcast. We both had extensive experience being at the parade. And you know that there was never any security in terms of entry points. You show up, it's a parade on fifth Avenue. There were only four permitted entry points today in the current parade, you couldn't stand on the side of Central Park. That entire side was blocked. And an unprecedented number of police. And you mentioned Mandani's boycott. I heard that there were groups that flew in from around the country to be there. So this was a statement. The question is, what kind of statement? What were Jews saying By showing up in larger numbers, by showing up so passionately. I think that first of all, there was this sense of this time of defiance, of pushing back. We will not allow Israel to become criminalized. We will not allow Israel to become controversial, at least within the mainstream Jewish community. I think that was the primary message here. And I'm just responding, you know, almost stream of consciousness, this sense of the parade as being the expression of the post Holocaust success of the Jewish people. That was really what the parade meant for my generation. It was our coming out and coming out, not the way we did at Soviet Jewry demonstrations, which were edgy, which were protesting, and it was still Jewish angst. There was no angst associated with the Israel Day Parade. And now after October 7th, it's the focal point of Jewish angst. But not only I was watching the parade. I've never done this before. Before, I never took the parade seriously enough to sit and watch it being live streamed. And I did this time. And there was a terrific float of Mamdani and his wife. Giant float, and they're waving Israeli and American flags. And what I loved about it was the humor, the good naturedness of it. And they weren't caricatures. They were very lifelike expressions of Mamdani and his wife. There was nothing vicious about it. It was saying, this is a celebration, of course Israel is going to win and you can boycott us. But we're responding with humor. That was something of the spirit of the old parade and it managed to keep that sense of optimism despite the edginess and one last point, Danillo, which is when I was watching the parade on YouTube, I thought of my friend Ted Comet, who was the founder of the parade. Ted died this past year at age 101, as sharp as ever. And he and I had a weekly phone call to just talk about the Jewish world. And Ted was an honorary chairman of the parade until he died, was on the board of Federation the joint at age 101. There's something of the spirit of Ted that I felt the defiance. Ted was very much a post Holocaust Jew in his late teens. He went to Europe in 1946 to volunteer to work for the Joint Distribution Committee. Met Elie riesel as a 16 year old boy and adopted, in effect adopted Wiesel and brought him into prominence into the American Jewish community. So Ted is this legendary figure who helped shape the American Jewish community as we knew it growing up. Always a kind of behind the scenes man. And I just wanted to give him that last kavod, that last respect. You know, there are certain people, your father is one of them, there are others and we live in their imagination. We live in the Jewish world that they created. And Ted Kamet was one of them.
- [08:12]
Daniil Hartman
Thank you for that, Yossi. And gives all of us a chance also to give honor to a great person who many of us didn't know. So thank you for that gift. You know, my experience with the New York Israel Day Parade was during the 11 years post war Lebanon that I moved to America. My two year stint in America, which lasted 11 years from 84 to 95. And I remember when I was living in Englewood, Israel Day Parade now then and now as well. It's populated principally by day schools and their parents and others. But those are the buses, like, and you gotta go. I felt for the first Israel Day Parade as an Israeli, I thought, you know, okay, that's like the second day of Yif, of the holiday. Like I don't have to do this in America. Like I'm Israeli, I don't have to go to the Israeli Day Parade. I don't need the Israel Day Parade to remind me of Israel's importance or my feelings. It was like miluim, it was like reserve duty. You gotta show up. Like you could be shamed for not going to the Israel Day Parade. Like you had to go. Everybody went, your kids were going and you're not going to go with your kids and the whole thing. So it was like, okay. So I went and I remember going and I said, oh, this like, okay, so I walked a little bit. It was just like, when could I leave? It's like, it sort of felt like shul was going on too long. So it was a very.
- [09:42]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Danielle, it's one of the reasons you're my favorite rabbi.
- [09:46]
Daniil Hartman
It was like, you know, okay, you got to do it. Okay, I'm showing up. That we got to show up. There was very much that feeling. That's the way it started. And really for 11 years, then, thank God, I could get back to Israel and actually live in Israel where I belong.
- [09:58]
Yossi Klein Halevi
But everyday life is just one big parade.
- [10:02]
Daniil Hartman
Well, of course it's one big joy, but I appreciate it very much, the seriousness of how in this case American Jewry or North American Jewry was trying to maintain its relationship with Israel. And I want to come back. It was that it's just like all holidays outside of Israel. There's nothing natural about the calendar. When you're living outside of Israel, there's nothing natural or indigenous. It's in a foreign place and you have to lay claim to something, a place for it. And I very much appreciated the seriousness of it. But I felt as I was reading the reports and speaking, you know, my son is living in Riverdale now for a couple of years as he's the co director of Camper Canada. And why he's living in Riverdale, that's another story. But he's June, July, August, he's in Canada the rest of the year. He's traveling and working. I heard from him that there was a sense that this year the parade wasn't just reserve duty. It wasn't just what we got to do as we go with our kids because the school takes the kids of this year. Of course we weren't going to miss the parade. Why? And my daughter in law said, of course we're going to the parade. Because there was a sense that I have a right to be proud of Israel despite everything that's going on. It was like laying claim to a pride and to a feeling that I'm allowed to have, which doesn't have to be mediated through other people's feelings. So much of what we experience all the time is how do you feel? How's anti Semitism, how's the anti Zionist onslaught? So much of the Israel conversation is a conversation about the problems, the questions. And I think the parade's power is to say, I, I'm allowed to have an unmediated relationship. I'm not solving the problems. You spoke about defiance. I want to speak about pride. I want to Speak about a relationship. My relationship is not just through the problems alone, and I have a right to that. And so the unmediated sense of I could lay claim to my Israel that I care about. And all of a sudden, one day, like Tal would say, here in Israel, I want to leave all the problems aside.
- [12:17]
Yossi Klein Halevi
I was thinking of exactly that, Danille, which is how Israelis relate to our Independence Day. For one day a year, we leave all of the arguments and problems aside and we just celebrate. And in a way, the Israel Day Parade is the American language equivalent.
- [12:34]
Daniil Hartman
Yeah, it's an inane thing. You walk down Fifth Avenue and you have this whole thing, but it's just here I am. You don't dictate my feelings. There's something very important about that, that my surrounding doesn't define the way I relate to everything all the time. I'm allowed to own my own categories, my own relationships, and a simple parade allows that. But I think there was another dimension that I feel was really, really important, especially this year. And I want to read to you a list, because as I was thinking about the parade, I wanted to know how many major national ethnic identity parades are there? How many parades does New York have? Let me just read you a list. There's the European national identity, St. Patrick's Day parade, Columbus Day Parade, German American Steuben Parade. I hope I said that right. Greek Independence Day Parade, National Tartan Day Parade. That's Scottish Pulaski Day Parade for the Polish. For those of you who didn't know, Columbus is Italian, St. Patrick's Irish. Then we have the Latin American and Caribbean parades, Puerto Rican Day Parade, Dominican Day Parade. You have Chinese Lunar Day Parade. You have Philippine Independence Day Parade. You have Korean Day Parade, Israel tapered. And this is only a partial list. This is a list. This is a riot. You know, there's a lot of parade. And I'm wondering how many of them Mamdani is going to boycott. You know, like, how many of them.
- [14:05]
Yossi Klein Halevi
You're sure he'll be at everyone?
- [14:07]
Daniil Hartman
Oh, no, no, no. He. There must be somebody's parade that aggravates him for whatever reason. You know, maybe the National Tartan or the Face Nish one. But whatever it is, I'm reading this and I'm saying, do you know what? When you look at this list, and this is only a partial list, New York has parades all the time, and this is the Fifth Avenue ones. There's parades that are in other parts of New York. I think part of what this whole list signifies is what Horace Kalin in his article on the meaning of Americanness at the beginning of the 20th century, he wrote this seminal article in which he spoke about America as a nation of nationalities, that when you come to America, you don't have to give up your prior identity. Quite to the contrary, it is an expression of your Americanness. It does deepens your Americanness, and it is a source of strength and vitality. So when you look at all of these parades, what they really signify is America as a country that celebrates multiple loyalties. That to have multiple loyalties is not to be anti American, but that American loyalty is the loyalty that shares who you are from where you came from. You can have multiple loyalties at the same time. They don't contradict each other. And part of what's happening, and I think Bamdani expresses that the only ones who aren't allowed to have dual loyalties are Jews. Somehow our dual loyalties are signs of disloyalty to America. And like this whole parade list, I'm putting it up for the YouTube people, you know, this whole parade list, it gives lie to that whole concept. And I think what the parade, in addition to the sense of I want to define my relationship with Israel, I think this parade is a declaration that we Jews are allowed to have dual loyalties. Just like the Irish and the Poles and the Dominicans and the Puerto Ricans and the Chinese and the Koreans. I'm not going to go everybody else again. I'm allowed to and it's not a contradiction. And I'm not going to buy into this notion that somehow if I love Israel, I'm anti American. Part of all those attacks, whether I'm violating American values or I'm violating my loyalty, we are allowed to march like everybody else. And that's why this is so New York. Because New York is a manifestation of Jewish pride and power. This is not a small little community. We're millions in New York. We're going to march just like everybody else. And I think this principle of the legitimacy of Jewish dual loyalty, that yes, I love Israel, I love America, I'm going to have both flags in my synagogue. I'm allowed to pray for the well being of Israel along with the well being of America and my particular identity is exactly what I get to celebrate in America because the two don't contradict America as a nation of nationalities. And I felt this year this parade signified the right of the Jewish people to this dual loyalty.
- [17:10]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Daniil, it's such an important insight and to just expand on that what we're really seeing is something that would have been inconceivable a few years ago, which is that there is now a serious debate going on in America about whether Jews have the right to define themselves. As you frame it through the lens of dual loyalty, which was accepted over the last two generations.
- [17:39]
Daniil Hartman
Right.
- [17:40]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Love of Israel is part of your Jewish identity. And this notion of dual loyalty, which did hover over American Jewry at an
- [17:49]
Daniil Hartman
earlier stage during an anti Semitic era.
- [17:52]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Yes. In the 1930s, really disappeared or virtually disappeared.
- [17:57]
Daniil Hartman
And now, you know, and if I could just add one thing, because as you were saying it, I remembered when Mamdani marches at St. Patrick's Columbus, German or with any other day, he's not saying or talking about his relationship and feelings about Germanness and about the polls today. Is he pro the current prime minister or president of Poland, whatever it is? He's not talking about his relationship to Poland. He's talking about his relationship to New Yorkers who have relationships with Poland.
- [18:30]
Yossi Klein Halevi
And it's even worse than that, because what Mamdani is effectively saying is, I have the right to tell New York Jews what their legitimate Jewish identity is. I will support you as a religion, but don't start playing this game of the Jews as a nation.
- [18:49]
Daniil Hartman
The Jews right now. What happens is, is that I could respect Mamdani's beliefs or whatever they may be. But marching, being a mayor of New York is to say, you know, you Jews, you're home here. Now, to be home in New York means to be home with your dual loyalties, just like every other crazy parade. Like we're the only ones. So I think this year, this issue came to the fore, and I felt.
- [19:13]
Yossi Klein Halevi
I think that's right now. That's. I think that's a really, really important point. And the irony here is that New York is now the battleground.
- [19:22]
Daniil Hartman
Right.
- [19:23]
Yossi Klein Halevi
For determining the legitimacy of the two flags on the beam of American synagogues.
- [19:28]
Daniil Hartman
Right.
- [19:28]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Of whether Jews have the right to define themselves on their own terms. And you're right. That's what the parade was about. That's what this parade was about.
- [19:37]
Daniil Hartman
And he's taking the lead. And you could see it all across candidates in America.
- [19:43]
Yossi Klein Halevi
That's right.
- [19:43]
Daniil Hartman
You know, it's. Are you Mamdani, like, you know, this is the fight against my right to my loyalties. So, yes, it was an interesting year
- [19:53]
Yossi Klein Halevi
because, you know, that fight is generally framed in the Jewish community in political terms. And of course, there's a very important political struggle going on because if official New York becomes Hostile to Israel. And we're not there yet because there was a very impressive lineup of New York politicians, past and current, who came to the parade in defiance of Mamdani. So the political struggle that's happening in New York over Israel is very important for the future of. Of Jewish political clout in America. Because if official New York turns hostile to Israel, that will be a signal for the political system throughout the country. But what you're framing it and actually in an even more interesting way, which is it's a struggle over the future of American Jewish identity. That's what Mamdani versus the parade really represents. Right.
- [20:50]
Daniil Hartman
So what else in your mind, what are the implications of this parade?
- [20:54]
Yossi Klein Halevi
I was struck by something you were saying earlier, Daniil, about how for the first time the Israeli media really paid attention to the parade.
- [21:03]
Daniil Hartman
Right.
- [21:03]
Yossi Klein Halevi
And of course they paid attention because they understand the political implications of the struggle. But Israelis generally are missing the identity element here. So I want to expand on the point you raised by. But take it from the Israeli side. What's our responsibility? How should we be responding to a parade whose theme was proud to be American and proud to be Zionist? That was actually the theme of this parade. It's in the background of America's 250th year. That was very much part of the parade. We are proud to be Americans and we're proud to be Zionists. What do Israelis do with that American Jewish pride in being Americans? And today there's nothing self evident about that pride, because American Jewish identity, this hybrid identity, is under threat. And I feel that we in Israel have a responsibility to affirm the Americanness of American Jews. And by this I want to just say a word to the wider Diaspora among our listeners. I'm speaking about America because Daniil and I are from there.
- [22:23]
Daniil Hartman
We're talking about this parade and the parade who's there.
- [22:27]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Right. But I mean the right of Jews anywhere in the world to define themselves and that Israel Israelis should celebrate the Diaspora. And I see that as an expression of 21st century Zionism. 20th century Zionism had to be Israel centric in an obsessive way because we were trying to establish the state and we were trying to establish the permanence of the state. And at this point, for me, what Zionism means, and we touched on this in one of our recent conversations, 21st century Zionism means affirming, yes, Israel is the center point of Jewish life, the conceptual center point and the practical center point. But to celebrate the Diaspora, especially when it's under assault And Mamdani boycotting a parade of American Jews celebrating their Americanness and their love of Israel simultaneously. That should tell Israelis something about what this moment means for American Jews and for the Diaspora generally. The Diaspora is under assault. And we need to be affirming not just the legitimacy of the Diaspora, but the essential nature of the Diaspora in Jewish identity. And this goes back 4,000 years. It goes back to Abraham being called by God to come to the land. And then a few years later, he and Sarah are suddenly out of the land. They're wandering again. And this back and forth movement is built in to Jewish identity. We are a people with a homeland at the center and with the Diaspora, and we've always been that. And the parade for me, really, in some ways really reinforced that. Celebrate not only the American Jews waving Israeli flags, but on Fifth Avenue, celebrate the American Jews waving the American flag. Because that's something, again, that I don't think we can take for granted.
- [24:37]
Daniil Hartman
Israelis are so far. It's one of the tragedies. Israelis are so far from what you're talking about. The Israel Day parade is about waving the Israeli flag. Like that imagery for so many Israelis and for this government even ten times more.
- [24:54]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Right.
- [24:54]
Daniil Hartman
It's about to what extent are you going to support us? In recent polls, you see it, the Minister of Diaspora just analyzed this as well, that while Israelis consider themselves more and more Jews and not just Israelis, their perspective for world Jewry is essentially your job is to support us and be quiet. That transparency and I think part of the challenge as we move forward, I think a different government, there are figures there who are open to a much greater level of sensitivity. But as we move forward, we have to add that dimension. Now, it's interesting and one of the reasons why it's so important, and I learned this from our colleague Ilana Steinheim. You know, Israelis have never really seen world Jewry. They never really see them. You know, you're supposed to make aliyah. You shouldn't be there, you're dying. And if you're still there, you're somehow redeemed by supporting me like that somehow gives you your very legitimacy. But for a long time period of at least, especially since 1967, despite the insult, world Jewry still stayed in the relationship because they got a lot out of it. It was easy to be pro Israel. Today, much of world Jewry is under assault because of Israel. So it behooves Israelis to ask themselves, so nu, what is your responsibility? How do you see people? How do you change the relationship can't just be sustained anymore by what world jewelry gets from Israel. The pride, the sense of power, identity, holy land, all the various meanings. You actually have to work in a relationship beforehand. You could say I could be a creep to you, but you get something out of the relationship, it's fine. It's like a spouse who's obnoxious, but I give you a credit card, you know, it's like you get a credit card, just shut up. You know, you got what you need here, you're not getting it. So we have to actually work on the relationship. So, you know, 13 members of Knesset came to the parade. But what was so ironic is that they came to the parade but they didn't leave Israel. They didn't really see the meaning of this parade. And I think it's a great challenge for Israel as we move forward.
- [27:03]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Daniel, you just raised the point. Of the 13 Knesset members, I wanted to ask you what your response was to Smoterch showing up at the parade. Not, of course, post parade has become a bit of a mini scandal in American Jewish conversation. And any thoughts about that?
- [27:27]
Daniil Hartman
What can I tell you? I just wish that Israeli politicians commitment to showing up for world Jewry wouldn't just summarize being I stand with you in the midst of your antisemitism. I just wish that they would understand the complexity of Jewish identity and actually carry it on here in Israel. So when you have an Israeli member of Knesset, my Golan, who attacks reformed Jews, you know, the majority of Jews in North America, for what did she say? Oh, continued giving bar mitzvahs to dogs in what you call temples or synagogues or whatever. It's like you have no idea what they're talking about. So the Israel Day Parade is very safe, especially this year, you know, Israelis show up. I'm going to lead the pride, I'm going to lead the fight for, you know, to protect you. So I just wish that they would expand it to a richer understanding of what it means, you know, why Smutrich showed up? I don't want to get into his soul. I'll leave him, whatever reason it might be. But I just wish that the spirit of what this parade demands would show up so that when my Golan says this Bizal o Smotrich would be the first one to get up and to say how dare you speak about my family this way? How dare you? And instead from the coalition, nobody says anything. The only one who does is the ambassador to America, who actually had to, you know, and he might be something that he feels. But this is what you're talking about, the parade. If it's not just a parade, it can't just be a parade for Israelis either. It's not just a place you show up. It's a place where you learn and bring it back home. So now, Yossi, any last thoughts?
- [29:16]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Just that participants in the parade were expressing their pride in Israel and I felt proud of American Jews. And I felt proud in their capacity to still be celebrating publicly and the courage they showed to show up. And who would have ever imagined that it would take courage to show up to the Israel Day Parade? I felt very close to the community that I grew up in and really felt great love for American Jews.
- [29:50]
Daniil Hartman
Beautiful. Thank you. Maybe if this year I was there, it wouldn't have felt like reserve duvet. This year the Israeli Day Parade was more than just a parade. Yossi, it was a pleasure thinking about this. Great to be with you and to be with you. Thank you, Yoss.
- [30:06]
Shalom Hartman Institute Announcer
Here are some other things that are happening at the Shalom Hartman Institute as the United states marks its 250th anniversary, the Hartman Beit Midrash for America at 250 offers a space for serious Jewish thinking about democracy, belonging and responsibility in American life. Throughout the year, the Hartman Institute will share essays and podcast episodes, convene learning and conversation, and publish a special edition of Sources to explore how the remarkable story of Jewish life in America can help us confront the challenges of the present and imagine possibilities for the future. Join us in the Hartman Beit Midrash for America at 250 all year long to fortify the American Jewish Project through the power of ideas. Learn more at the link in the show notes at the recent closing Shabbaton of the Hartman teen Fellowship, over 250 fellows from across the United States and Canada spent a weekend building pluralistic community while studying ethics and our relationship to the other with Hartman Scholars. One fellow shared I was able to talk to many people I never would have otherwise talked to. I was able to strengthen my own beliefs while gaining an appreciation for the fact that things can be understood differently. Mzaltov on a productive year There is still time to join us at Hartman in Jerusalem this summer. Join fellow leaders, philanthropists and learners at our Community Leadership Program. Bring renewed energy to your Rabbinic work by attending our Rabbinic Torah Seminar. Reflect on your educational work with your peers at the Wellspring Summit for Education. Click on the link in the show notes to learn more and register.
- [31:34]
Daniel Goodman
For Heaven's Sake is a product of the Sholom Hartman Institute and ARC Media. It is produced by me, Daniel Goodman, with help from Miriam Jacobs, Adar Taylor Schechter, and Aviva Katmanaur, and studio support from Go Live Media. Our episode was edited by Seth Stein, Natal Friedman is our executive producer, and our music was composed by Yuval Sama. Past episodes can be found@arcmedia.org where you can explore more of Arc Media's podcasts. You can watch the video versions of our episodes on our YouTube channel. Follow the YouTube link in the Show Notes. Also, to receive updates on new episodes, please follow the link to arcmedia.org and subscribe to Arkansas Media's weekly newsletter. For more ideas from the Shalom Hartman Institute, visit our website@shalomhartman.org.