FoundMyFitness Podcast #107

How To Cure Insomnia & Fall Asleep Fast | Dr. Michael Grandner
Host: Rhonda Patrick, Ph.D.
Guest: Dr. Michael Grandner (Director, Sleep and Health Research Program, University of Arizona)
Date: October 2, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode is a comprehensive, evidence-based guide to understanding, diagnosing, treating, and optimizing sleep. Dr. Michael Grandner, one of the foremost sleep scientists and clinicians, explores the real causes of insomnia, the gold-standard non-pharmacological treatments (notably Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia—CBT-I), how to address other sleep disorders like sleep apnea, and advanced, actionable strategies for sleep hygiene. The episode also dissects the real effects of popular sleep supplements and substances, evaluates the accuracy of consumer sleep trackers, and makes practical recommendations for handling shift work, jet lag, and optimizing sleep for physical and cognitive performance.

Dr. Grandner excels at explaining complex mechanisms in simple analogies, providing both big-picture understanding and granular protocols. Listeners finish with a toolbox of actionable, science-backed sleep strategies.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Distinguishing "Insomnia" from "Insomnia Disorder"

• Definition: Insomnia disorder is marked by persistent difficulty falling or staying asleep, at least 3 nights per week, for at least 3 months, with daytime impairment—and occurring when given adequate sleep opportunity.
• Rule of thumb: Taking >30 min to fall asleep or being awake >30 min at night is suggestive. Sleep deprivation by choice isn’t insomnia (05:20–07:12).

Dr. Grandner [05:20]: “A lot of people will have occasional sleep difficulties, but it’s really only an insomnia disorder when it crosses the line and interferes with your function.”

Chronic Insomnia often continues well after the original stressor resolves, due to conditioned arousal—the brain’s learned association between bed/sleeping and stress/hyperarousal (07:24–13:27).

Dr. Grandner [09:40]: “The act of trying to fall asleep becomes predictably stressful. The brain’s a pattern-recognition machine. When sleep becomes a battle, this strengthens the association between bed and stress.”

2. Mechanisms and Gold-Standard Treatments: CBT-I

• CBT-I is highly reliable and superior to medications for chronic insomnia.
• Core components:
  • Stimulus control: Teach your brain to associate the bed only with sleep (and sex). Don’t use your bed for wakeful activities (TV, scrolling, ruminating).
    • If not sleeping, get out of bed. Stand or sit up until sleepy, then return.
  • Sleep restriction (time in bed restriction): Temporarily limit time in bed to actual sleep duration, gradually expanding as sleep efficiency improves.
  • Surrendering control: Trying to "force" sleep makes insomnia worse; the “enemy of sleep is effort.”
• Analogy: Like physical therapy for sleep: “You can probably sleep fine. You are built with this ability. Something is in the way—let’s remove it.” (16:13–20:32)

Dr. Grandner [28:18]: "The fear is what’s creating the activation. Nobody got to sleep faster by trying harder. The enemy of sleep is effort."

• CBT-I outcomes: 6-8 sessions often resolve chronic insomnia—even for people considered "hopeless cases" [40:45].
• Accessible: Can be tried DIY, many online/telehealth options, but expert guidance can optimize success.

3. Addressing Nighttime Awakenings (Rumination, Waking to Urinate, etc.)

• Step away if you wake and can’t fall back asleep. Don’t stay in bed “trying.” Wait for the natural urge to return to sleep (25:00).
• Minimize stress about the awakening itself—the anxiety prolongs wakefulness.

Dr. Grandner [25:08]: “Sleep is not something you do. It’s something that happens when the situation allows. If it’s not happening, surrender control. Don’t panic—you’ll be fine the next day, and the system will correct itself.”

4. Sleep Apnea: Recognition, Risks & Treatment Beyond CPAP

• Prevalence: 20–25% of men >30yrs, ~5% of women (higher with BMI>30). Often missed in fit, young, or slim people.
• Symptoms: Not always sleepy! Repeated awakenings, feeling sleep is “shallow,” waking with gasps or for no clear reason are red flags.
• Screening: Threshold for screening should be low.
• Testing: Home tests with wearables/monitors are accessible.
• Non-CPAP treatments:
  • Mandibular advancement (dental) devices
  • Positional therapy (side sleeping, “tennis ball” method)
  • Myofunctional/breathing training
  • Chin straps or mouth taping (snoring, not severe apnea) (76:43–82:42)
• Risks of untreated sleep apnea: Increased cardiovascular, metabolic, cognitive, and even Alzheimer’s risk due to intermittent hypoxia and persistent sleep fragmentation.

Dr. Grandner [70:41]: “Untreated sleep apnea is a known risk factor for neurodegeneration. It’s not sustained hypoxia, it’s constant little fires of oxidative stress—affecting liver, kidney, brain, heart, immune system…”

5. Advanced Sleep Hygiene and Behavioral Strategies

• Sleep hygiene is necessary but not sufficient for insomnia; it sets the foundation.
• Beyond “dark, cold, quiet”:
  • Predictability: If you can’t keep a regular bedtime due to schedule, create ritualized, predictable routines (same actions in same order, even if time or location changes).
  • Morning light exposure: Early, bright light (ideally outdoors) sets circadian clock, raises amplitude, and inoculates against nighttime light disruption (86:04–91:47).
  • Dimming lights (“orange” spectrum) 30+ min before bed, limiting intense or stressful content.
  • Individually manage boundaries with phones, screens, and relaxation techniques—flexible buffer zone pre-bed (34:58).
  • Alcohol, caffeine, supplements timing/misuse discussed (see below).

6. Truths and Myths About Sleep Supplements and Substances

Melatonin

• Role: Not a sedative; a "darkness" hormone that signals nighttime, shifts circadian rhythm, lessens sleep latency.
• Best use: Clock shifting (e.g. jet lag), low doses (0.3–0.5 mg) hours before bed are most biologically rational; huge doses (3–10 mg+) can oversaturate, bleed into morning, cause grogginess.
• Not helpful for chronic insomnia (if conditioned arousal is the issue).
• No evidence that supplements suppress endogenous production or desensitize receptors.
• Supplement quality highly variable; “less is more.”
  • [113:38–116:25]: Melatonin from reputable brands often has deliberately higher actual content to account for degradation by expiration date.

Magnesium, Glycine, Lavender, L-Theanine, etc.

• Evidence for actual insomnia is weak; may be mildly calming and help sleep onset in some, especially those without chronic insomnia.
• Glycine: Some emerging data; may help sleep and thermoregulation.
• Avoid B12 at night (may blunt melatonin); take multivitamins in the morning (125:56).

Cannabis: THC and CBD

• THC: Initially helps sleep onset but tolerance develops; suppresses REM (like many antidepressants), causes rebound insomnia and vivid dreams/withdrawal. May increase injury risk via daytime impairment.
• CBD: Unpredictable; some studies show benefit, many do not. Anxiety reduction may be mechanism, but not reliable sleep inducer.

Alcohol

• Helps fall asleep but fragments later sleep, reduces quality (137:26). See spikes in heart rate/sleep disruption on wearables.

Caffeine

• Profound inter-individual variability in metabolism.
• Most people should cease caffeine 6hrs before bed; some need to stop in the morning.
• Don’t drink caffeine immediately upon waking—use for a mid-morning boost when adenosine builds (94:41).

Late-Night Eating

• Metabolic and circadian misalignment; ideally stop eating at least 3 hours before sleep.
• Sleep-deprived people crave/eat more calories, especially late and in palatable/high-energy forms.

7. Coping With Shift Work, Jet Lag, and Unavoidable Sleep Disruption

Shift Work

• If possible, standardize your schedule (avoid frequent rotating shifts).
• Use strategic napping—short “power naps” (<30min to avoid deep sleep) or (if needed) full sleep-cycle “replacement” naps (90–180min) to recover.
• Manage caffeine usage: dose early in shift, avoid late-shift caffeine.

Jet Lag

• As soon as you board the plane, begin behaving “as if” in destination time zone.
• Sleep-deprive slightly before overnight flights, attempt to sleep on plane, then fill next day with light and activity, stay awake until local bedtime.
• No napping upon arrival—avoid mixed signals.
• Use melatonin on destination clock before new evening, and seek morning light exposure.
• Exercise soon after arriving helps (156:07–161:43).

8. Sleep Tracking Devices (Oura, Whoop, Fitbit, Apple Watch, Pixel, etc.)

What’s accurate:

• Sleep duration and continuity (sleep/wake detection): About 90% accurate, robust over decades.
• Heart rate: Reliable; photoplethysmography works well.

What’s less accurate:

• Sleep stages (light, deep, REM): 60–80% accurate at best; trends are more reliable than exact numbers; focus more on weekly patterns.
• Recovery/readiness/sleep score algorithms: Often proprietary, “black boxes”; not evidence-based for clinical decision-making.

Dr. Grandner [171:55]: “With very few exceptions, most of those scores are... mostly made up nonsense to sell devices... If I’m being charitable, they’re educated guesses with assumptions I don’t know. I almost 100% of the time completely ignore them.”

Best ways to use wearable data:

• Look for trend changes in total sleep, frequency/length of awakenings, heart rate patterns at night.
• If heart rate isn’t dropping at night, look for physical/environmental/chemical issues (ex: late exercise, pain, alcohol).
• Wearables are not diagnostic tools or interventions—“A bathroom scale is not a weight loss program.”
• Beware “orthosomnia”—unhealthy obsession with metrics can worsen sleep via anxiety/conditioned arousal (186:35).

9. Sleep as a Performance Enhancer for Cognitive and Athletic Domains

• Get more sleep, especially if young and performing at a high level—extending sleep even by 15-minute increments can measurably improve reaction time, memory, speed, and strength.
• Bank good sleep in advance (“sleep banking”): If you know you’ll be sleep-deprived (pre-competition, exam, travel), prioritize sleep in the week or two before.
• One or two poor nights are not disastrous if you’re coming from “a place of strength” (201:04–201:18).
• For cognitive performance, you can “caffeinate” for vigilance/attention but can’t make up for complex decision-making loss from sleep deprivation.
• Environmental “bubble-wrapping”: Eye mask, ear plugs, white noise can measurably consolidate sleep and improve cognitive/athletic performance.
  • [209:59]: Example: Eye mask improved sleep and test scores in students.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Chronic Insomnia Mechanism:

“It’s like the ball that’s already rolling. The cause that started it is no longer relevant. It’s gravity and momentum. That’s why the best treatments aren’t about sedating you—they’re about reprogramming that cycle.” — Dr. Grandner [07:24]

• On Stimulus Control:

“The enemy of sleep is effort.” — Dr. Grandner [28:18]

• On Overtreatment with Medication:

“CBT-I works shockingly well… It retrains you to sleep, not just knocks you out.” — Dr. Grandner [36:40]

• On Shift Work:

“Is shift work worse for you than smoking? Most circadian scientists would pause and say, ‘Hmm, that’s a good question.’” — Dr. Grandner [147:28]

• On Orthosomnia:

“Sleep doesn’t have to be perfect to be perfectly fine.” — Dr. Grandner [186:35]

• On Wearables’ Sleep Scores:

“If I’m being ungenerous, I’d say they’re mostly made-up nonsense.” — Dr. Grandner [171:55]

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Defining Insomnia: 05:20–07:12
• Conditioned Arousal & CBT-I Introduction: 07:24–20:32
• Stimulus Control Explained: 13:39–20:32
• Sleep Restriction Therapy (How it Works): 29:35–34:00
• Phones in Bed & Sleep Hygiene: 34:00–36:33
• CBT-I Access, Success Rates: 39:04–40:50
• Population Prevalence / Sleep Apnea Risks & Symptoms: 40:45–49:47
• Treatment of Sleep Apnea (Non-CPAP Approaches): 76:43–82:42
• Sleep Stages & Sleep Architecture Deep Dive: 56:06–68:49
• Supplements—Melatonin, Magnesium, CBD, Alcohol, Caffeine: 113:38–126:36
• Shift Work & Strategic Napping: 147:22–154:50
• Jet Lag Protocols: 155:29–163:07
• Wearables: Accuracy & Interpretation: 163:48–181:09
• Performance Enhancement / Sleep Banking / Environmental Optimization: 190:38–201:18
• Rapid Fire Q&A: 210:27–222:43

Actionable Takeaways

• For insomnia: Prioritize CBT-I, especially stimulus control and sleep restriction. Don’t “try harder” to sleep; instead, break the bed–anxiety association.
• If waking at night: Get out of bed. Don’t ruminate or panic. Surrender effort—sleep will return.
• Suspect sleep apnea?: Push for screening, especially if sleep feels shallow or fragmented, regardless of traditional risk factors.
• Morning sunlight: At least 15–30 minutes soon after waking sets your clock and helps protect against evening light.
• Supplements: Melatonin: <1mg, hours before bed, for clock-shifting only. Others—focus more on behavioral strategies.
• No alcohol for sleep: It disrupts more than it helps.
• Wearables: Use trends, ignore “sleep score” metrics for now, avoid obsessing over data.
• Performance: “Bank” sleep before critical events; protect your sleep from environmental disruptions using simple tools (eye mask, earplugs).
• Shift work/jet lag: Anchor routines with light, keep schedule consistent where possible, and nap strategically.
• Daily schedule: When possible, tailor activities to your chronotype for best performance.

Final Thoughts

Dr. Grandner delivers a masterclass in translating sleep science to everyday health, performance, and productivity. The central take-home: stop battling sleep, lean into what your body’s built to do, and address the psychological and behavioral roadblocks that get in the way.

[Full transcript and resources at foundmyfitness.com]