Podcast Summary: Free Thinking Through the Fourth Turning with Sasha Stone Episode: A Good Friday Special: Interview with Poet Joseph Massey + Giveaway
Release Date: April 18, 2025

Free Thinking Through the Fourth Turning is a podcast hosted by Sasha Stone, focusing on incisive essays and discussions on politics and culture. In this special Good Friday episode, Sasha engages in a profound conversation with Joseph Massey, a celebrated poet whose career experienced significant upheaval following a cancellation incident in 2018. The episode delves into Joseph's journey through personal and professional challenges, his exploration of faith, critiques of contemporary cultural movements, and his poetic works. Additionally, listeners are treated to readings from his acclaimed book, America is the Poem, with a giveaway of five copies.

1. Introduction and Background

[00:00 - 04:47]

Sasha Stone opens the episode with a warm welcome and introduces Joseph Massey, highlighting his prominence as the "poet laureate of the inaugural Trump administration," a title that underscores both his recognition and the controversial circumstances surrounding his career. He has appeared multiple times on the Megyn Kelly Show, which played a pivotal role in elevating his public profile. Sasha proudly announces Joseph's new book, America is the Poem, which swiftly climbed to the number one spot in the global poetry section on various platforms and secured a place within Amazon's top 50 book sales.

Notable Quote:

• Sasha Stone: "Joseph Massey has a new book coming out called America is the Poem... it's actually in the top 50 all book sales at Amazon right now out of millions of books, which is incredible."
  [04:13]

2. Joseph Massey's Cancellation and Its Aftermath

[04:47 - 20:08]

The conversation shifts to Joseph's tumultuous experience in 2018 when he faced sudden cancellation. An anonymous accusation surfaced alleging inappropriate behavior during a poetry reading, leading to widespread backlash. Joseph recounts the personal toll it took, including being ostracized, losing professional opportunities, and enduring relentless harassment from those involved, including a former romantic partner who felt wronged.

Notable Quotes:

• Joseph Massey: "I was canceled for nothing. There was never any due process. You’re done... they just destroyed my career."
  [10:29]

• Sasha Stone: "The thing that was so shocking about that MeToo incident was that so many women started to pile on... but when he says he's canceled, what he means is they took a loaded gun and they just destroyed his career."
  [08:56]

3. Transition to Faith and Personal Resilience

[20:08 - 24:13]

Amidst his struggles, Joseph shares his profound journey towards faith. Initially unaffiliated with religion, he found solace in the Catholic Church after exploring various spiritual practices, including meditation and yoga through a group called Ananda. The transition provided him with stability and a framework to process his pain and forgive those who wronged him, emphasizing the importance of not harboring hate.

Notable Quote:

• Joseph Massey: "The church gave me stability. It put everything that was happening to me in a much in a context that made it less of a catastrophe and more of an opportunity to grow and to find the grace in it and also to forgive these people."
  [20:08]

4. Critique of Modern Cultural Movements and MFA Programs

[24:13 - 44:49]

Joseph offers a critical analysis of contemporary cultural movements, particularly labeling aspects of "wokeism" as cult-like. He expresses frustration with the modern poetry landscape, asserting that current MFA programs often stifle genuine creative expression through an overemphasis on identity politics and fear of censorship. This environment, he argues, leads to a decline in poetic quality and authenticity, culminating in widespread talent suppression and the rise of inauthentic, politically driven poetry.

Notable Quotes:

• Joseph Massey: "Wokeism... it really is a cult. They have all the hallmarks of a cult... they completely dehumanize someone to the point where they are absolutely willing to drive them to suicide."
  [25:05]

• Sasha Stone: "It's hard to take with that kind of environment, that collegiate sort of woke environment... it's so deeply embedded in our lives."
  [59:47]

5. Navigating Friendships and Social Isolation Post-Cancellation

[44:49 - 58:57]

The dialogue touches upon the personal ramifications of cancellation, particularly the erosion of long-standing friendships. Both hosts discuss the difficulty of maintaining relationships when political and social divides become insurmountable. Joseph recounts how numerous close friends distanced themselves abruptly, leaving him feeling socially isolated and emotionally strained.

Notable Quotes:

• Joseph Massey: "One of the most horrific things that you can do to someone is to socially ostracize them. That's what drives canceled people to one of the main drivers... complete ruin personally."
  [58:05]

• Sasha Stone: "In my case... the ones who still are my friends, there's a canyon between us... we really have to stay off certain subjects because it's so deeply embedded in our lives."
  [59:47]

6. Poetry Readings from America is the Poem

[63:27 - 69:13]

A highlight of the episode is the reading of Joseph Massey's poetry from his book, America is the Poem. Two of his poems, "The Relief" and "Ember Tide," are recited, showcasing his evocative language and profound thematic elements centered around personal struggle, faith, and the American experience.

Poem Excerpts:

• "The Relief"
  After a week spent beneath swells of panic, I give my mind permission to lapse into lilacs...

• "Ember Tide"
  On a walk, I think about death until the thought exhausts itself...

Notable Comment:

• Sasha Stone: "God, that's so beautiful. We can't have one more?"
  [65:55]

• Sasha Stone: "That poet has a great eye for composition. If he wasn't known for his poetry, he'd be known for his photos."
  [33:07]

7. Conclusion and Book Giveaway

[68:23 - 69:13]

As the episode wraps up, Sasha and Joseph discuss the logistics of the book giveaway. Joseph is encouraged to leverage his talents in voice, content, and visual composition to expand his reach, potentially through platforms like YouTube. The conversation concludes with an affirmation of mutual respect and support, reflecting on rebirth and new beginnings following tumultuous times.

Notable Quotes:

• Sasha Stone: "You have three main talents going for you that would be suited for the medium, which is your voice, your content, and your visual eye."
  [46:06]

• Joseph Massey: "It's been great. We've known each other a long time, but we've never actually talked before."
  [68:35]

8. How to Participate in the Giveaway

Listeners are invited to purchase America is the Poem on Amazon and visit Joseph Massey's Poetry Dispatches Substack page. The first five participants who comment will receive a free copy of the book. To participate, visit the show notes on the podcast's website, where a link to Joseph's Substack and his Instagram (@J.MasseyPoet) are provided.

Final Takeaways: This episode offers an intimate glimpse into Joseph Massey's resilience in the face of adversity, his unwavering faith, and his critique of contemporary cultural dynamics. Through eloquent poetry and candid conversation, listeners gain insight into the complexities of personal redemption, the impact of societal movements on individual lives, and the enduring power of art as a vessel for truth and healing.

Thank you for tuning into this enriching episode of Free Thinking Through the Fourth Turning. Don't forget to check out Joseph Massey's America is the Poem and enter the giveaway for a chance to delve deeper into his poetic world.