Actor Jon Bernthal on grit, dedication & the teacher who saved him - Fresh Air

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[00:01]
Tanya Mosley
This message comes from Capella University. That spark you feel, that's your drive.
[00:05]
NPR Announcer
For more.
[00:06]
Tanya Mosley
Capella University's Flexpath learning format lets you earn your degree at your pace without putting life on pause. Learn more at Capella. Edu. This is FRESH air. I'm Tanya Moseley. My guest today, Jon Bernthal, has spent two decades playing the kind of men you'd want to avoid, and somehow he makes you root for them anyway. This summer he's in two major films, reprising his role as the Punisher in the upcoming Spider man movie and starring in Christopher Nolan's the Odyssey. His breakout role in 2010 was as Shane on the Walking Dead, a sheriff's deputy protecting a band of survivors from zombies until he becomes the greater threat. He won an Emmy as Mikey, the brother whose ghost haunts every episode of the Bear. And this year he starred in the Netflix hit series his and hers and appeared on Broadway and Dawes Afternoon. Bernthal says he couldn't have predicted any of this. He grew up in Washington, D.C. a baseball player better known for fighting than acting. And by his own telling, he was a kid headed in the wrong direction. An acting teacher saw something in him and sent him, of all places, to one of the world's toughest classical theater conservatories in Russia. He returned, transformed, co founded a theater company, performed in dozens of stage productions, and spent years grinding through sitcom guest spots in small film roles before his break finally came in the Odyssey. Bernthal makes his Christopher Nolan film debut playing Menelaus, king of Sparta. A few weeks into production in the Moroccan desert, the cast shot the Trojan horse sequence, one of the film's most iconic scenes. Matt Damon's character and more than a dozen warriors cram inside the belly of the horse, waiting to invade tr. The horse sits partially submerged, and Bernthal draws the short straw, neck deep, treading in freezing water that was supposed to be heated. And word has it, as Bernthal stood there shivering, Nolan offered to pull him out, but he refused. Jon Bernthal, welcome to FRESH air.
[02:17]
Jon Bernthal
Thank you so much for having me. It's a real honor.
[02:19]
Tanya Mosley
Why did you refuse to get out of that cold, freezing water?
[02:22]
Jon Bernthal
Boy, I don't feel like I drew the short straw at all. I think anytime you know that you really care about something or you believe in something, if you have the opportunity to sort of be the one to say, send me first, let me show you what I can do. I feel like our grit and our dedication is the one thing that we have control of in this world. And I Love doing this. I love that I got to work for Chris and with Chris, and if he wanted to send somebody, I wanted to be that first one, for sure. I think that's, you know, I would jump at that.
[02:56]
Tanya Mosley
Again, it's interesting Matt Damon said, you pushing through that uncomfortable moment. I mean, like, really, because it was the hardest role he said he's ever played, just physically. And so to see you sit in that uncomfortable situation actually pushed him to push through his discomfort. Tell us a little bit about that character and the significance of you being submerged in that water for all of that time.
[03:23]
Jon Bernthal
Look, you know, so kind of Matt to say that. But like I said, I really wouldn't have had it any other way. You know, when you look at that film and the experience for the folks that made it, I remember my first day arriving there, just seeing the look in his eyes. He's a guy I know. He's a guy that I respect deeply. Yeah, for sure. And just, you know, the first words he said to me when I saw him on this beach with thousands of extras in Morocco right after traveling across the world, he just said, john, I've never seen anything like this before. And I said, me too, man. But if you haven't seen it, well, no one. And I thought that on this film specifically, you know, there was a group of men that were Odysseus's men that were in this journey throughout the whole piece. And a lot of them, you know, were in the background. A lot of them didn't take their helmets off for the majority of the picture. But I feel that that group of people really was the backbone of the film, performance wise. They add so much, they bring so much, and every day they are grinding and grinding and grinding. And what I was so grateful for is that I really got to be a part of that for the first month and a half. And I've been in that group in a few other films, and I know what that's like. And a lot of times you're sort of in that group or you're not in that group. And if you come in sort of like I did, where you have a few scenes, you're usually not a part of that group. But I was so inspired by them. And to be sort of a soldier of the story and to be a grunt of the story is such an honor.
[04:53]
Tanya Mosley
Well, you have had quite a busy few years. And the other film that's coming out this summer is Spider Man. I have yet to see it. I'm gonna see it tonight. So it's crazy that I have. Wait, you said you, too?
[05:06]
Jon Bernthal
Yeah, yeah, I'm seeing it tonight, too.
[05:08]
Tanya Mosley
Yeah. So you haven't seen it fully yet?
[05:10]
Jon Bernthal
No.
[05:10]
Tanya Mosley
Okay, so you've played Frank Castle for 10 years, and you've been pretty protective of this particular role, like you take up for him and all of his shortcomings as well, and you're bringing him to this Spider man movie rated for kids. What did you. Or did you negotiate or refuse to let them soften when it comes to the Punisher in particular for this movie?
[05:36]
Jon Bernthal
Yeah. Look, I think historically, this is a character, you know, for the folks that don't know, you know, it's a character who's. Whose family was killed in sort of a shootout between a bunch of different criminal figures from the underworld. That and his family and children were taken from him right when he got back from fighting overseas. He's a Force Recon Marine, and in our version of Marine Raider, and it brings up so many issues, but I think beyond just sort of the spiraling, reeling loss of his family and how he's reacting to that, we've really sort of delved into issues of PTSD and traumatic brain injury and the feeling with so many vets who come home, guys who are tip of the spear, vets who really feel lost and wayward and don't know what to do next. And, you know, look, I think I've said before, I was quite trepidatious and hesitant about sort of getting into the superhero world. It wasn't something that I was looking to do. It wasn't something that I sought out.
[06:39]
Tanya Mosley
How come?
[06:40]
Jon Bernthal
You know, for a few reasons, I think, you know, the guys, the folks that I've respected the most in acting, some of my heroes, not that I respect the most, but a lot of my heroes sort of never went that way. And I think times have definitely changed. But, you know, to have superpowers or to fly through the air, I just. That. That just never. I think the characters that I'm really interested in are enormously grounded. I try to make them, and I try to find things about them that I can deeply relate to, or they take me down a path that scares me intensely. And so I have to go sort of explore that path.
[07:21]
Tanya Mosley
And with the Punisher in particular.
[07:23]
Jon Bernthal
Yeah, look, I've said before, there's no way that I could begin to take on that character if I wasn't a husband and a father first. First and foremost, and to fully and palpably understand, you know, what the feeling of loving people on this earth and happily give my life for these people on my earth. On this earth. How would it feel if these people were taken from me? So I always want Frank to live there. And he's not a character looking for the light. He's not a character looking for things to get easier or for things to get better yet. He's a human being. And I, all the time with my, you know, the roles that I play, I love opportunities to turn my back on the audience. And I love to sort of take it too far, to try to push myself to a place or push the audience to a place where they can no longer be with this character, but then try to win them back through showing the fragility of their heart, showing how brokenhearted they are, showing how much they're. How much pain they have. Because I do think pain is a real adhesive, and I think it's the thing that really connects all of us.
[08:26]
Tanya Mosley
And so fascinating, John, because it's true that pain is the thing, but most human beings don't want to face that. We kind of live our lives avoiding it and then dealing with it when we have to. But you in particular seem to run towards it in every way, both physically and mentally. And your toughness has a history. You grew up in Washington, D.C. one of three brothers. You went to Sid Will Friends, the Quaker school where presidents have sent their children. It's kind of a place known for non violence and peace, right?
[09:02]
NPR Announcer
Absolutely.
[09:03]
Tanya Mosley
Yeah. And by your own telling, here you were in this school in fights and always chasing the most dangerous thing in the room, it seems. What did that look like?
[09:15]
Jon Bernthal
Yeah, I think never fighting in school ever, you know, and I really think that sort of the values of that school, you know, were really ingrained in me. Even if it took me years and years for them to sort of come out and really come to fruition and to really understand and believe in them. But there's no question that, you know, when I was a young, scared, confused man that I did, I would run into the run towards the most wild, the most dangerous.
[09:45]
Tanya Mosley
What do you think it was you were attracted to about it and what did it look like?
[09:50]
Jon Bernthal
I think for so many young men, it's about fear. It's about fear and it's about shame. There's a wonderful book that has meant so much to me, and I really suggest everybody read it, but especially I think, young men. There's a book named Townie by Andre DeBou II. Incredible memoir, but it. But it's sort of. It really sort of tells the story about how fear and shame, you know, can kind of lead to violence and how we sometimes become the very thing that we're scared of. And I do have a real relationship, I think, with. With danger that I. That I have been in some situations that, you know, could have gone many ways. And I think to a certain point, I think that that's really important. I also am so grateful that I'm so far past that now and so far beyond that now. And that mostly that I found this work that all of the reckless abandon and sort of wild things that I got into as a young man, I can bring that same energy into my work, and hopefully I can bring these kinds of folks. I can bring a real humanity to these kinds of folks, and through that same sort of reckless abandonment and wildness. And I think that that is. That's my favorite way of working.
[11:04]
Tanya Mosley
So you're a young man and you are in this school where you're learning all these wonderful things about conflict resolution. I heard you talk about there's this Quaker ritual where you all would sit in silence, and then when you had something that you needed to say, you could say it. Can you describe that?
[11:21]
Jon Bernthal
Sure. I mean, it's, you know, the way that Quakers worship is so beautiful. And, you know, there's no hierarchy in that religion. There's no priests, there's no rabbis, there's no ministers. There's just fundamental belief that there's that of God in everyone. And. And that's something, again, that at the time, you know, I looked at those meeting for worships as just a time to either sleep or look at girls or, you know, because you all sit
[11:46]
Tanya Mosley
in a room and it just be quiet.
[11:48]
Jon Bernthal
Everybody is silenced. You know, every coach, every security guard, everybody from buildings and grounds, every teacher, every administrator, every student, you would just sit in silence together. And the idea is, if that of God moves you, you get up and you address the congregation, whatever comes from your heart. And I fundamentally believe in that.
[12:07]
Tanya Mosley
Did you ever do that?
[12:08]
Jon Bernthal
I did. I did. I only did it once. I only did it once. And it was actually, strangely, after I had gotten into an altercation outside of school, and I talked about. I've never spoke about this before, but there was a man who came after my little brother on a basketball court in D.C. and I ended up getting into an altercation with this man. And I spoke about it because I was so scared, but I ended up having this just unbelievably profound sense of sorrow for this man. And I really empathized with this man. And I really saw a lot of myself in this man at that time. That was the only time I spoke. And it was a profound experience because I didn't plan to speak. I didn't go in saying, today's my day to speak and meeting for worship. It really did just hit me in the moment, which was strange for that point in my life.
[13:03]
Tanya Mosley
Your father was a corporate lawyer and is that right?
[13:06]
Jon Bernthal
He became that? Yeah, at first, yeah.
[13:09]
Tanya Mosley
Your grandfather a musician and a producer, and your mom and brothers are also powerhouses. I mean, you come from a really impressive family. It sounds like discipline and accomplishment were a big part of the foundation of you guys. And how would they describe your place in the family?
[13:27]
Jon Bernthal
Oh, boy. I was definitely the black sheep. You know, I was definitely the one who got in trouble. I was definitely, definitely the one who.
[13:36]
Tanya Mosley
You're the middle boy.
[13:37]
Jon Bernthal
I was the middle boy. You know, both of my brothers are enormously, sort of, quote unquote, successful. So my eldest brother, you know, right out of college, got into the news. He was a producer. I think he won four Emmys. By the time he was 22, he was the youngest producer on TV. And then he started this small firm, which it was enormously successful. And then my little brother, who just kind of was always that. He was an all American football player and played basketball at Princeton and, you know, went to medical school. My wife is a ICU trauma nurse. I was living with my wife and my little brother when he was in medical school. And I was a starting struggling actor, just taking odd jobs to get by. But, you know, my brother now is, you know, he's the head of oncology and orthopedics here at ucla.
[14:29]
Tanya Mosley
How proud your parents must be of you guys.
[14:31]
Jon Bernthal
Yeah. But again, I gotta tell you, my dad grew up in a split family home. My parents didn't come from much. There was never a huge onus in my house for achievement or they weren't pushing us. We lived in D.C. we had an open door policy. My house was the house that if you were in trouble, you came to talk to my dad. If you needed a bed, you came to my mom. They were foster parents. They took in foster kids. The alchemy of how they did it was so extraordinary. And I have to tell you, without a doubt, I am the failure of the family. I've done the least by far. And what they are most proud of is how close we are. And, you know, my parents really put up with a lot with me. They really did.
[15:17]
Tanya Mosley
What do you think it was that had you driving towards that danger for you as a young person, Because I do think it plays into the way you're able to give such a real performance of these conflicted and violent people that you often portray.
[15:35]
Jon Bernthal
I don't know. I mean, honestly, it's a good question. You know, as a young man, I know I saw my older brother get picked on a good bit, and I know that I sort of made a choice that that was never gonna happen to me. And I know that I was really sort of fell into sort of a natural protector role for my little brother. And then I think it just kind of got carried away. And I think that again, you know, I think never underestimate the power of fear and shame, you know, And I think you can go from somebody who's very scared into somebody who is very scary. And I think that that is just the sort of the natural progression of things, unfortunately, so much of the time. And then I think it's. You also then have a potential to go to the next place, which is, you know, you can start using that. You can come to a place where you're comfortable and you're confident. Confident, and you're open to all kinds of thoughts. And there's, There's. You're not led by fear, you're not led by shame. You're really. You. You become curious. And I do genuinely believe that's where I. I am now. I'm. I'm really hungry and open and curious. And I don't. I really try not to judge folks, and I really do see that, you know, I found wisdom and grace and beauty in folks that a lot of people would label as some of the scariest people out there.
[17:04]
Tanya Mosley
Acting finds you, though, in a very interesting way, almost by accident. So you're this hellion in Washington D.C. as you put it. You go to Skidmore College to play baseball. You walk into an intro acting class as a freshman thinking that you can kind of sleep through it. And the first assignment is for you to bring something you care about and talk about it in this acting class and you forgot. So you grab your catcher's glove and you spin this story that your mother had given it to you on her deathbed, but she's alive and well. And do you remember how you felt after you gave this monologue and you looked around the room and you saw the responses of everybody?
[17:52]
Jon Bernthal
I was blown away. It was an out of body experience. I had told this story and I knew that it took that leap to sort of jump into something. It never dawned on me that it even mattered whether it was true or not in that room. I knew my back was against the wall. I know I hadn't brought anything. I knew it was an enormously emotive room and a level of sort of openness with these young artists, these serious young theater artists that I was completely unfamiliar with. And I knew that I had to jump. And it was no different, honestly, than jumping into a street fight or jumping into a football game or jumping into a situation that, okay, there's only one thing to do here if you're sparring and boxing, okay, let's go. You just take that step and you go. And I have, from a young age been quite addicted to that step. And I knew that that step was necessary there, even though I had no idea what I was doing. And I always come back to this word, reckless abandonment. You stop thinking, you get out of your own head, and you just go forward and you try to connect with something bigger. And, you know, I do remember kind of coming back to myself with tears down my eyes, you know, with the story that I completely made up, but then also, you know, noticing while I was telling the story the sort of grip, the real palpable grip that I had over the other folks in the room. And I saw the emotion from them, and I knew that it was something special, and I knew that it was something. Something very, very powerful.
[19:22]
Tanya Mosley
And your teacher, your teacher, though, yeah, she saw the talent in you, but she called bull. She knew that this was Alma Becker.
[19:30]
Jon Bernthal
Is her name Alma Becker? Yeah, her name's right here on my wrist.
[19:33]
Tanya Mosley
You have a tattoo?
[19:34]
Jon Bernthal
I do. It's of the Moscow Art Theater and Alma's name. And, yeah, she saved my life. You know, I mean, she was as, you know, what I found that day with her was a level of vitality and a level of, you know, I always sort of thought of the arts in my own sort of naive way, that it was a soft place. It was a place of just complete acceptance and not one of rigor and discipline and real vitality. And boy, did she. Boy, did she give it to me and sort of ripped me apart.
[20:12]
Tanya Mosley
And she saw something in you?
[20:16]
Jon Bernthal
She did. She said, yeah. Her punishment was that I had to audition for the play for the college production.
[20:23]
Tanya Mosley
Our guest today is actor Jon Bernthal. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is FRESH air.
[20:30]
NPR Announcer
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[20:48]
Tanya Mosley
for this podcast and the following message come from Strawberry Me. Be honest. Are you happy with your job? Are you stuck in a job you've outgrown or never wanted in the first place? Are your reasons for staying really just excuses for not leaving? Let a career coach from Strawberry Me help you get unstuck. Discover the benefits of having a dedicated career coach in your Corner and get 50% off your first coaching session at Strawberry Me.
[21:16]
NPR Announcer
NPR this message comes from Cachava. It can be tough to stick to your wellness routine, especially when you're on the go. Cachava's new travel packs make it easier. Just one packet provides nutrition ready for wherever life takes you with protein, fiber, greens, probiotics, electrolytes and more. Take your daily ritual with you. Go to cachava.com and use code NPR. New customers get 15% off their first order. That's K-C-H-A-V A.com code NPR this is FRESH AIR.
[21:50]
Tanya Mosley
I'm Tonya Mosley, and my guest today is actor Jon Bernthal. He returns as the Punisher in the new Spider man film Brand New Day. He also stars in Christopher Nolan's epic the Odyssey. He's also the host of the podcast Real Ones, where he sits down with the kinds of people he spent his career playing police officers, veterans, former gang members. When we left off, we were talking about how he discovered and fell in love with acting in college. So you did that, and you did that for a while. You started to really get into it. You started to really feel it. And your teacher, her answer to you as she saw your talent blossom was that you needed to go to Russia, to the Moscow Art Theater School, one of the most demanding classical conservatories in the world. It is 1999. You don't speak a lick of oppression and you go, why? Why Russia of all places?
[22:46]
Jon Bernthal
I think just like what you were talking about with, you know, Mr. Nolan in the beginning, I would have done anything Alma told me to do. I wanted this. It didn't take long. I auditioned for that play. And I remember telling my best friend Greg Zumas that summer. I remember sitting down with him when we had, you know, we were we were delivering pizzas at the beach. And I remember telling him, man, this is what I, what I have to do. This is what I'm gonna do. Like, there's no question. And I think, number one, you know, this sort of private School kid from who thought he was all big and bad. Getting out and really seeing the world and seeing Moscow, I think would be enormously humbling and just be a reality check that I needed. I think she also knew that I needed to kind of get away from all the people that I was with and that it was a group of young men that sort of crave danger is much different than one man on his own. But mostly, you know, Russia is and was a place with such a rich theatrical history, where being an actor is such a serious profession. You can't do it without real rigorous training. There's statues of actors, you know, in the city. It's much more akin to being a soldier.
[24:00]
Tanya Mosley
And it's that way because it's not taken for granted there.
[24:04]
Jon Bernthal
Absolutely.
[24:05]
Tanya Mosley
Because it's been. It's policed, it's been censored, of course.
[24:07]
Jon Bernthal
I mean, actors have been assassinated, directors have been assassinated in their homes. The opportunity to get a group of people to gather publicly and to put on a show was something that for so long was controlled by the state. It was controlled by the state for all of my teachers. So for them, this was not a hobby. This was not something that you just got to do. It was such a privilege, it was such an honor. An honor that they performed in plays. Where had they been caught. They risked imprisonment, they risked assassination. Putting on theatrical productions that weren't state sponsored was absolutely risking the. And they did it anyway, all of them. It changed everything for me.
[24:48]
Tanya Mosley
It's really interesting that she saw in you that a place like Russia, because when we think about Russia, I mean, conditions are tough, it is rough. You went to Russia and you're like, wait, I thought I was a tough guy.
[25:03]
Jon Bernthal
Oh, yeah. The brutality there was unlike anything I had ever seen. But so was the beauty. And there were equal parts. Look, I don't want to overdo the brutality. I mean, you know, I have. I had guns, multiple guns pulled on me within my first week there. I saw people that were left dead in the street. I saw a level of desperation, of wildness, of unbelievable disparity between those that have and those that do not. People called it the wild, wild west, but it was run by criminals. That's just what was going on there then.
[25:41]
Tanya Mosley
And you were yet going to school every day, going to class every day.
[25:44]
Jon Bernthal
Yeah. Living in this tiny little place with four other people. I slept on the floor. We turned the lights on. You know, the cockroaches would go everywhere. You'd feel them climbing over you all at night. The buildings had curfews. So you, you know, you could only get in and out at certain times. And then if you needed to get out, you know, you'd throw the fire hose down and you'd rappel down out of the windows. I mean, it was it was a wild place in a wild time, but the most alive, the most impactful time of my life, without a doubt.
[26:14]
Tanya Mosley
If you're just joining us, my guest today is actor Jon Bernthal. He stars in the new Christopher Nolan epic the Odyssey, in theaters now. And he reprises the role as Frank Castle, the Punisher in the new Spider man film in theaters this week. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH air.
[26:34]
NPR Announcer
Support for this NPR podcast. And the following message come from Carvana. Selling your car car. Carvana has offers so good they're almost inexplicable. Sell your car 100% online in minutes. Visit Carvana.com today. This message comes from Cachava. It can be tough to stick to your wellness routine, especially when you're on the go. Kachava's new travel packs make it easier. Just one packet provides nutrition ready for wherever life takes you with protein, fiber, grains, probiotics, electrolytes and more. Take your daily ritual with you. Go to kachava.com and use code NPR. New customers get 15% off their first order. That's K A C H-A-V A.com code NPR.
[27:20]
Jon Bernthal
We've just marked one year since Congress voted to eliminate federal funding for public media. NPR remains committed to informing the public. But a free press doesn't just happen. It's something we need to protect without federal funding. We are relying on your support. Now. Please show your support before the end of the month. Visit plus.NPR.org this is FRESH AIR.
[27:43]
Tanya Mosley
And today I am talking with actor Jon Bernthal. He returns as the Punisher in the new Spider man film and stars in Christopher Nolan's epic the Odyssey. His breakout role was as Shane in the Walking Dead, and he won an Emmy for his role as Mikey in the bear. 2010 finally comes. You're in Los Angeles the Walking Dead, playing Shane, a sheriff deputy trying to hold a group of survivors together at the end of the world. And this role is considered your breakout role, but you've been open a year before, almost to the day. Your life had nearly ended because of a conflict that had happened in Venice. Yeah. What happened?
[28:27]
Jon Bernthal
Yeah, I mean, I've spoken about it before. You know, I think that that was sort of the tail end of all of the walls that I had walked into. There are so many times that, you know, I should have learned my lesson. And I think for a while there, I believe that kind of my. My wildness. I think I suffered from something that a lot of young artists suffer from, where I thought that sort of my wildness and that reckless abandon that I talked to you about before, that I thought that I needed to hang on to that in order now to be a good artist, that the two things came hand in hand, like at your
[29:02]
Tanya Mosley
edge, like it was your edge or a little bit.
[29:04]
Jon Bernthal
And I knew that I was capable. I'd been to places that a lot of actors hadn't been. I'd been in situations that a lot of them had been, and I'd been capable of things that a lot of them weren't capable of. And I felt that that was something that I kind of needed. And yes, in July 3, 2009, I was in a situation where, you know, I was confronted by a group of men. One of them, you know, came at my dog, and they started to follow me, and I fought them. And, you know, one. One of them got enormously hurt, seriously hurt, and we weren't sure whether he was gonna wake up. And that led to one of the most profound moments of my life where, you know, I was at the LA County Jail, you know, handcuffed to a bench, not knowing which way this was gonna go. And, you know, I've spoken about it before, but, you know, in a place where I was quite aware that we were now being led to a place where all of these things that. All of these gifts that I had been given, all of this protection that I had because of my father, all of this unbelievable opportunity of being in trouble. This wasn't the first time I'd been in trouble a lot. And I'd gotten to go to Russia, I'd gotten to be in movies at this point, be on TV shows, and here I was, handcuffed to a damn bench, not knowing if this guy was gonna wake up. And
[30:31]
Tanya Mosley
you made a promise to yourself.
[30:32]
Jon Bernthal
I did. I think what happened there, you know, honestly, was. I knew, and it wasn't. It wasn't a shameful thought, and it wasn't a scary thought. I just knew that this man wasn't gonna wake up and that this was gonna be my life. I mean, I don't want to say it this way, but it's just the truth, so I will. I heard a voice, and the voice said, look, this is gonna be your life. And now. And so it's time to let all that other stuff go. It's time to go in there. And I knew enough about what it would mean to have a serious charge in LA and what that would mean for my life going forward. And I understood it and I wasn't scared of it. I accepted it and I even welcomed it. And I said, okay, well, that's that then. It's time to say goodbye. But then this other voice came and it just said, oh, man, it pled. And it just said, if. If you just give me this shot, if you just one more time. Even though my butt has been saved so many times, I am not a kid who didn't come from opportunities. I did. And I never learned this damn lesson. But, oh, man, if you just. If you can just get me out of this one. And it's palpable how many folks don't get that? And, you know, right at that moment, an officer came in and said that he had woken up. Up. And I said that if that happens, I'm done. I'm gonna devote myself to this work. I'm gonna get married, I'm gonna have a family. I'm gonna devote myself to service. I'm gonna be the best version of myself that I possibly can be. And look, that situation didn't. Surely didn't end right then. There were still consequences. There was still.
[32:04]
Tanya Mosley
But he survived. And like that, that means that's significant. I mean, beyond what's obvious for him and for you for sure.
[32:13]
Jon Bernthal
And look, as you. You were alluding to, one year later, engaged to my wife, free from alcohol on the set of this TV show that I just knew. I just knew I had to do. I had to do it. You know, I was there with my friend Sarah, wayne callis on July 3rd, just beginning this process the next year. The next year. And I went home and I wrote that guy a letter. And I knew that what I saw in that man night was I saw myself. I. I knew that, you know, this sort of vile, rambunctious, aggressive, bad man child was something that I had seen in myself. And I knew that that had to. I had to be done with that. And I have been done with it. And the thing that is not lost in me and I think really does pertain to so many of the roles that I play is, as I'm sure you know, so many people are in that exact same situation that I'm in and they don't get saved and it doesn't turn out well. And, and. And that's why I fundame that hope and love and yearning and the things that make us human are prevalent in everyone, even in the most violent, even in the most secluded, even in the most desperate. And so I always try to find those things in the people that I
[33:34]
Tanya Mosley
play this role in. The Walking Dead. It's one year later, July 3, 2010. You're walking on the set in Atlanta, a year sober, as you said. And this character, Shane, he's a sheriff's deputy trying to hold a group of survivors together. And I actually wanna play a clip. So this is a scene from season two, episode six, Secrets. And Dale, played by Jeffrey Demun, who is often seen as the voice of reason among the group, kind of senses your character Shane is trouble because of his aggressive attitude and short fuse. And he also believes you might have killed somebody. Okay, so. And he urges your character to leave the group, and your character Shane, pushes back and threatens him. Let's listen.
[34:27]
Jon Bernthal
You've been vague about that night, about what happened. Otis died a hero. So you've said. A little boy lived because of what went down that night. I think you ought to show some gratitude. I wasn't there. Oh, man, you weren't. But I was the time that you raised your gun on Rick. You had him in your sights and you held him there. I know what kind of man you are. You think I shoot Rick? That is my best friend. That's a man that I love. I love him like he's my brother. You think that's the kind of man I am?
[35:08]
Tanya Mosley
That's right.
[35:09]
Jon Bernthal
Well, maybe we oughta just think that through. Say I'm the kind of man gunned down his own best friend. What you think I'd do to some guy that I don't even like when he starts throwing accusations my way? What, you think?
[35:25]
Tanya Mosley
That was my guest today, John Bernthalan, in the Walking Dead. And it's all in the eyes between the two of you in that scene. You know, this is a chilling piece of acting. And knowing what you were going through in your own life and this promise that you made to yourself, in a way, it's like you're channeling that kind of rage and anger into this character. What is it like to visit a character like this? The thing you promised to kind of
[35:54]
Jon Bernthal
leave behind in your own life such a blessing. Such a blessing. It's profound. You know, the thing that I thought I needed to cling to in order to be the guy that I was, in order to have the relationships that I had, in order to sort of keep my reputation among my friends or to deal with my shame when I was around all these sort of toxic things that I think plague so many young men here, I found this thing that I could tap into those same exact things, take them enormously seriously and find the truth in them. I know the truth in that stuff. And here I was, I, I could use it one level to have a job, but two and much more importantly to hopefully reach folks. And I think to tap into things that I feel is the thing that I love most about art is when you tap into a color or to a sound or to an emotion that we know that we felt, that we know that we've seen, we know as part of the experience, but we can't really label it and say, oh, yeah, I felt that. I know that. I know that guy. I've seen that guy. I see that kind of pain. That was the blessing of my career, without a doubt.
[37:05]
Tanya Mosley
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is actor John Bernthal. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH air.
[37:13]
NPR Announcer
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[37:44]
Tanya Mosley
This week on Here and now, anytime Democratic voters in Michigan sound off ahead
[37:49]
Jon Bernthal
of the big primary election on Tuesday. The average American I don't feel like our voice is being heard. Feel like a little man at the
[37:55]
NPR Announcer
bottom of the total.
[37:56]
Tanya Mosley
Also, Haitian Americans in Ohio fear deportation after losing their temporary protected status. All that and more on here and
[38:04]
Jon Bernthal
now Anytime Listen on the NPR app
[38:06]
Tanya Mosley
or wherever you get your podcasts. This is FRESH air. And today my guest is Emmy winning actor Jon Bernthal. He's in two major films this summer, Christopher Nolan's the Odyssey, where he plays Menelaus King of Sparta and the new Spider man film, reprising his role as Frank Castle the Punisher, the character he first made famous in the Netflix series. His breakout role was as Shane in the Walking Dead and he won an Emmy for playing Mikey in the Bear. He just ended his run on Broadway starring alongside his longtime friend Eben Moss Bachrach in the play Dog Day Afternoon. So Eben is the One that pulled you into the bear. Right. So the way you've told it, there is no script, no pitch, just Eben saying, hey, man, do me a favor. You need to come on this. Like you need to do this. And so you took it blind, and that favor became Mikey, which you won an Emmy for. Congratulations.
[39:01]
Jon Bernthal
Thank you.
[39:02]
Tanya Mosley
The storyline is that he took his own life and everything in the show, the restaurant, all of it is kind of centered around the crater that is left with your absence, and you appear only in flashbacks and memories. Was there a particular thought about the way that you took on this role, knowing that you would kind of be like this figure that's not there, but is there at the same time?
[39:27]
Jon Bernthal
For me, I don't think you can go about it that way. I remember David Simon telling me that, you know, the second that he would tell a character on the wire that they were dying, they would start eating a Ritz cracker like it was the last time they'd ever eat a Ritz cracker. You can't. I heard these things about, you know, we need him to be larger than life and we need him to, you know, be this, you know, yeah, you know, you can't go in and play a role. This guy's got to hang over all. You know, where you see him in the first season is so unbelievably different from where you see him in the second season. They allowed him to get ugly. They allowed to see the other side in the first season. You see this smile and this warmth and this ability to tell the story and how much everybody, you know, when we lose people, the rose colored lens, the glorification, I mean, you know, it's a part of it. And I loved sort of that color.
[40:20]
Tanya Mosley
You and Evan, as you said, you wrote this episode together of the Bear Called Gary. And in this prequel, so Mikey is alive. It's before everything. It's on a road trip from Chicago to Gary, Indiana, and you're with Richie, who is Eben's character, and on an unspecified mission. And during that trip, Mikey meets a woman named Sherry, played by Maren Ireland, at a Gary, Indiana, bar. And they go into a bathroom stall together, kind of have a little. Little drugs, and they share an intimate moment about how kind Mikey's mother was when she was high. And what's so powerful about this is that we know Mikey had issues, but they were never really laid out. And here he is talking to a stranger, and we're seeing him, his most open, intimate self, with a stranger in a bathroom stall. And It's a little. But we're gonna listen to it. It's Mikey talking to Sherry, telling him about this memory. Let's listen.
[41:26]
Jon Bernthal
When I was a kid, you know, my mom, she used to do this thing where, like, when she was like, on, like, the perfect mixture of, like, all kinds of things in her system, you know, it's just like, perfect. She'd, like, come in my room in the middle of the night, you know, and she'd, like, scratch my back. And she had, like, the longest nails, and she'd just, you know, and she used to, she used to walk me through my day, you know, like, like the most admiring minute details, you know, like, like what we're gonna eat, when we're gonna wake up, what I was gonna wear, what was gonna be on the radio. Like, everything, you know, just, like, it would make me feel like. I don't know, like I, I, it would just make me feel so relaxed.
[42:01]
NPR Announcer
Yeah.
[42:02]
Jon Bernthal
Like, really calm. Yeah. And like, no matter what was gonna happen that day, it didn't matter, like, test or some I had to deal with. Like, I knew that and she had planned it for me.
[42:11]
Tanya Mosley
It was great.
[42:11]
Jon Bernthal
And I remember there was this one time I was like, hey, Mom, Ma. Hey, Ma, Will you come in and tell me about my day tomorrow? And she was like, she got angry, you know, and she's like. She was like, mike, you, difference does it make? It's just a day, like I said. Didn't understand how that could be, like, how that could be the same person, you know? That's so scary. Yeah.
[42:44]
NPR Announcer
Yeah.
[42:44]
Jon Bernthal
She shouldn't have done that.
[42:47]
Tanya Mosley
She tried her best, you say there at the end. She tried her best. That was my guest, Jon Bernthal. He wrote that with Ebon Moss Bachrach. It's a prequel episode of the Bear. And oh, what a powerful scene, you know?
[43:02]
NPR Announcer
Yeah.
[43:04]
Jon Bernthal
There's so much in that. First of all, I just think that the show too, it's, it's such a deep dive into mental health and, and the fragility of, of, of, of people and, and, you know, look, my, I, I had a dear friend of mine who, who lost his father and, and, and he used to talk to me about how at, at, at certain times, at like 3:30 in the morning, his dad would be on, like, the perfect combination of alcohol and drugs. And he would come into the room and he would just have this sort of level of peace that, so he, he would just sort of set his alarm. So he would like, kind of always be able to talk to his dad. In that state. And my mom used to come in to my room every night, some nights and scratch my back and tell me about my day. And I love the fact that sometimes in life we can only really talk about ourselves. We can really only explain what's really going on with ourselves with complete strangers in that scene, I think. So. Sort of the thing that's going on in Mikey more than anything else is that he knows that within the same person, he knows he's got exactly what his mom's got, and he knows that it's a hereditary thing and that it's real. And he knows that what makes him so special and so attractive and so irresistible just, you know, can also make him so repulsive and so dark and so impossible to be around. I love that in the opportunity of this show, we got to have this sort of reprieve where, you know, he got to sort of talk about what was exactly about to happen when he unravels with Eben. And I think as much as the episode is funny and it's a slice in time, and it's a sort of road trip, and it's a la Cassavetes. And, you know, I'm so proud of the piece.
[44:48]
Tanya Mosley
One of my favorite roles of yours is a really small one, but it's a very powerful one, and it's your most gentle. And it's you and Ava DuVernay's film Origin. It's about writer Isabel Wilkerson and how she came to write her book cast. And you play her husband, Brett, who. He is warm, he is devoted, and he's strong. And his death is one of the losses that sends Isabel's character into grief and where the book cast gets written. And I read that you actually fought for this role. Yeah, tell me about that after reading Cast.
[45:26]
Jon Bernthal
Yeah, I mean, look, I beg everybody to read that book.
[45:30]
Tanya Mosley
How did you even get introduced to the book?
[45:32]
Jon Bernthal
You know, before I went to Russia, I never read I. And I remember we got. There's a thing called Black Tuesday where they basically cut half the class, and everybody has to go in front of all your teachers, and you sort of. They analyze you. And for me, it was doubly hard because they would analyze me in Russian, and then I'd have to wait for the translation. And you sort of are known whether you get kicked out or not. And so some people walk out in tears, some people walk out in joy. And I remember my acting teachers, and again, I'm hearing this through translation, but they said, you know, John, your. Your talent. I remember this so perfectly. Your talent's like a gem. It's like a wild gem. But they said it's completely unformed. You have no elegance. They said, we bet you don't read. And I'm like, never read a book in my life, you know, like, never done it, you know. And they said, from this point on, never let there be a moment. If you want to be an actor, if you want to be an artist, never let there be a moment where you're not reading. And I really took that to heart and I just dove in. So, you know, Abel, Ava. I was so blown away by Ava. I'm such a big fan of hers, you know, Angenu Ellis. I just think ingenue is just a force of nature. She is the greatest we have right now. And also, I felt like to be in a movie where your role is really to be in service like you're to be in, you know, that's really the kind of husband Brett was. It was aspirational. Here was this unbelievable woman with this unbelievable mind who could think in a way that no one else could. He really understood that his role was to serve her. And so, I don't know, it was something especially because so much of the time I'm sort of asked to represent these certain kind of, like, brands of masculinity. I think that character is every bit as, as. As masculine as the Punisher or, you know, the guy played in Shot Caller. You know, it's just.
[47:27]
Tanya Mosley
That's what's so powerful about it. I mean, right?
[47:30]
Jon Bernthal
He's strong, it's sturdy, it's thoughtful, it's caring. He's a protector, he's a provider. But it has nothing to do with bombast or bluster. And again, through the lens of raising young men, I believe in the ability to defend yourself. I believe in part of being a man is to be a provider, to be a protector. But it's also equally important to be kind and curious and sensitive and open and to be of service.
[48:00]
Tanya Mosley
Well, Jon Bernthal, I really thank you for your work and I thank you for this conversation.
[48:05]
Jon Bernthal
I appreciate you having me. I really do.
[48:07]
Tanya Mosley
Emmy winning actor Jon Bernthal, currently appearing in Christopher Nolan's the Odyssey. His film Brand New Day opens in theaters tomorrow. If you'd like to catch up on interviews you've missed, like our conversation with classicist Emily Wilson, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of Fresh Air interviews. You can also watch some of our interviews on our YouTube page. This is Fresh Air. And to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers recommendations on what to watch, read and listen to. Subscribe to our free newsletter@why.org fresh air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Stanischewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman, Nico Gonzalez Whistler and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly CV Nesper. Thea Challoner directed to Jennifer show with Terry Gross. I'm Tanya Moseley. This message comes from Integrative Therapeutics, makers of Cortisol Manager, named best overall Ashwagandha supplement by Vogue. Use code STRESS2026 for 20% off of cortisol Manager on Amazon.com this message comes from Cachava.
[49:42]
NPR Announcer
It can be tough to stick to your wellness routine, especially when you're on the go. Kachava's new travel packs make it easy, easier. Just one packet provides nutrition ready for wherever life takes you with protein, fiber, greens, probiotics, electrolytes and more. Take your daily ritual with you. Go to kachava.com and use code NPR. New customers get 15% off their first order. That's K-C-H-A-V A.com code NPR.

Summary7 min read

Fresh Air (NPR)

Episode: Actor Jon Bernthal on grit, dedication & the teacher who saved him
Host: Tanya Mosley
Date: July 30, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode features a wide-ranging, intimate conversation with Jon Bernthal—an actor celebrated for his intense, complex portrayals of flawed, often tough men. Bernthal discusses the grit and dedication underpinning his performances, reflects on his troubled youth, his transformative time in Russia, the teacher who ultimately changed his path, and the profound ways art and personal growth have interwoven throughout his career. The conversation is candid, direct, and deeply human, tracking Bernthal’s journey from DC "hellion" to acclaimed Emmy-winning actor and devoted family man.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Grit, Dedication, and the Nolan Set (Trojan Horse Scene)

00:19 – 03:21
- Bernthal recounts refusing to leave the icy water during a challenging scene on the set of The Odyssey:
  
  "I don't feel like I drew the short straw at all...Our grit and our dedication is the one thing that we have control of in this world."
  — Jon Bernthal (02:21)
- Matt Damon, watching Bernthal, admitted that Bernthal’s commitment inspired him to push through discomfort.
- On being a “soldier” or “grunt” on a film set, Bernthal emphasizes respect for the ensemble and the value of being part of the backbone group:
  
  "...to be a soldier of the story and to be a grunt of the story is such an honor."
  — Jon Bernthal (04:47)

2. Evolving Role as The Punisher & Grappling with Pain

05:10 – 08:26
- Reflects on a decade as Frank Castle, The Punisher, and the tension of depicting a violent character in a kid-oriented Spider-Man film.
- He prioritizes realism and emotional truth over mythic "superpowers":
  
  "The characters that I'm really interested in are enormously grounded. I try to make them…and I try to find things about them that I can deeply relate to, or they take me down a path that scares me intensely."
  — Jon Bernthal (06:46)
- Bernthal insists on portraying Castle’s trauma and pain honestly, viewing pain as a universal adhesive:
  
  "Pain is a real adhesive, and I think it's the thing that really connects all of us."
  — Jon Bernthal (07:58)

3. Recklessness, Fear, and His Youth

08:26 – 13:26
- Describes growing up as the “black sheep” in a high-achieving family, drawn to physical danger but deeply influenced by the values of his Quaker school.
- Explains how fear and shame—rather than inherent toughness—drove his reckless behavior:
  
  "For so many young men, it’s about fear. It's about fear and it's about shame…sometimes we become the very thing that we're scared of."
  — Jon Bernthal (09:53)
- Recalls the Quaker Meeting for Worship and a transformative moment of empathy after a fight:
  
  "...I ended up having this just unbelievably profound sense of sorrow for this man. And I really empathized with this man. And I really saw a lot of myself in this man at that time."
  — Jon Bernthal (12:15)

4. Family, Expectations, and Acceptance

13:02 – 15:16
- Describes family members’ significant achievements and labels himself the "black sheep"—yet insists family closeness, not achievement, was his parents’ most valued goal.
- The household served as a haven for others: "My house was the house that if you were in trouble, you came to talk to my dad…"
- On why he gravitated toward danger and how it eventually became something he could harness for his art.

5. The Transformational Power of Acting

17:04 – 20:15
- Relays the story of his accidental discovery of acting:
  - An improvised monologue in college acting class becomes an “addiction” to the feeling of diving fully into a moment:
    
    "It was no different, honestly, than jumping into a street fight or jumping into a football game...You stop thinking, you get out of your own head, and you just go forward and you try to connect with something bigger."
    — Jon Bernthal (18:33)
  - Teacher Alma Becker, who "saved" him, saw real promise and pushed him forward:
    
    "I always sort of thought of the arts…that it was a soft place…not one of rigor and discipline and real vitality. And boy, did she give it to me and sort of ripped me apart."
    — Jon Bernthal (19:34)

6. Russia, Hardship, and Embracing Discipline

21:49 – 26:14
- At Becker’s urging, Bernthal moves to Moscow’s Art Theater School—to escape old crowds and fully commit to rigorous, dangerous, and demanding work.
- Spared no detail in describing both beauty and brutality:
  
  "The brutality there was unlike anything I had ever seen. But so was the beauty…"
  — Jon Bernthal (25:02)
  - Lived with violence, deprivation, and fear, but “the most alive, the most impactful time of my life".

7. Turning Point: The Near-Destruction Before The Walking Dead

27:43 – 33:34
- Recounts a violent incident in LA that nearly ruined his life a year prior to The Walking Dead.
- Shares the moment in jail when he accepted the possibility of a ruined future, then “begged” for another shot:
  
  "I heard a voice…look, this is gonna be your life…But then this other voice came and it just said, oh man, if you just give me this shot…one more time…If you can just get me out of this one."
  — Jon Bernthal (30:31)
- The injured man survived. Bernthal got sober, committed to service and family, and transformed.

8. Channeling Past Darkness into Characters

34:26 – 37:04
- A scene from The Walking Dead: Shane’s confrontation, Bernthal leads from his own lived intensity.
- On using rage and pain for art:
  
  "The thing that I thought I needed to cling to…here I found this thing that I could tap into those same exact things, take them enormously seriously and find the truth in them."
  — Jon Bernthal (35:54)

9. The Bear: Playing Mikey and Depicting Absence

39:00 – 44:48
- Took the now-acclaimed role on a friend's word, resulting in an Emmy.
- On playing a character who “haunts” the show:
  
  "You can't go in and play a role—this guy's got to hang over all…Where you see him in the first season is so unbelievably different from where you see him in the second season."
  — Jon Bernthal (39:27)
- Wrote, with Eben Moss Bachrach, the episode "Gary"—Bernthal describes the emotional honesty of playing a man haunted by mental health and addiction, channeling personal and borrowed stories:
  
  "Sometimes in life we can only really talk about ourselves…with complete strangers in that scene, I think."
  — Jon Bernthal (43:28)

10. Redefining Masculinity in “Origin”

44:48 – 47:59
- Fought for the role of Brett in Ava DuVernay's Origin, drawn by the chance to play nurturing strength instead of violence.
- Describes redefining masculinity:
  
  "That character is every bit as masculine as the Punisher or…the guy I played in Shot Caller…It has nothing to do with bombast or bluster. And…as a father of young men, I believe in…the ability to defend yourself…but it's also equally important to be kind and curious and sensitive…"
  — Jon Bernthal (47:29)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On dedication and discomfort:

"If you have the opportunity to sort of be the one to say, send me first, let me show you what I can do…If he wanted to send somebody, I wanted to be that first one."
— Jon Bernthal (02:21)
On finding humanity through pain:

"Pain is a real adhesive, and I think it's the thing that really connects all of us."
— Jon Bernthal (07:58)
On channeling past violence for art:

"You stop thinking, you get out of your own head, and you just go forward and you try to connect with something bigger."
— Jon Bernthal (18:33)
On the meaning of masculinity:

"It's equally important to be kind and curious and sensitive and open and to be of service."
— Jon Bernthal (47:59)

Timestamps for Key Segments

[02:19] – Grit on set & the freezing water anecdote
[05:10] – The Punisher: trauma, pain, and moral territory
[09:49] – Fear, shame, and violence in youth
[12:08] – Profound moment in Quaker worship
[17:52] – Story of accidental entrance into acting
[19:34] – Influence of teacher Alma Becker
[22:45] – Why Russia? Embracing risk and seriousness
[25:02] – Brutality and beauty of Moscow life
[28:27] – The violent turning point in LA before stardom
[35:54] – Using pain to bring realism to The Walking Dead
[39:27] – Approach to playing Mikey in The Bear
[43:01] – Scene and discussion about finding calm amidst pain in The Bear
[47:29] – Redefining masculinity in "Origin"

Episode Tone & Final Thoughts

Tanya Mosley’s conversation with Jon Bernthal is raw, thoughtful, and marked by Bernthal’s honesty about his past and the purposeful, often difficult journey to his current standing—both as an actor and a man. He speaks with an intense sincerity, keen self-awareness, and humility for the people and moments that helped "save" him and shape his craft. For listeners interested in craft, redemption, masculinity, and the transformative power of both art and mentorship, this episode is not to be missed.

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Transcript111 lines

[00:01]
Tanya Mosley
This message comes from Capella University. That spark you feel, that's your drive.
[00:05]
NPR Announcer
For more.
[00:06]
Tanya Mosley
Capella University's Flexpath learning format lets you earn your degree at your pace without putting life on pause. Learn more at Capella. Edu. This is FRESH air. I'm Tanya Moseley. My guest today, Jon Bernthal, has spent two decades playing the kind of men you'd want to avoid, and somehow he makes you root for them anyway. This summer he's in two major films, reprising his role as the Punisher in the upcoming Spider man movie and starring in Christopher Nolan's the Odyssey. His breakout role in 2010 was as Shane on the Walking Dead, a sheriff's deputy protecting a band of survivors from zombies until he becomes the greater threat. He won an Emmy as Mikey, the brother whose ghost haunts every episode of the Bear. And this year he starred in the Netflix hit series his and hers and appeared on Broadway and Dawes Afternoon. Bernthal says he couldn't have predicted any of this. He grew up in Washington, D.C. a baseball player better known for fighting than acting. And by his own telling, he was a kid headed in the wrong direction. An acting teacher saw something in him and sent him, of all places, to one of the world's toughest classical theater conservatories in Russia. He returned, transformed, co founded a theater company, performed in dozens of stage productions, and spent years grinding through sitcom guest spots in small film roles before his break finally came in the Odyssey. Bernthal makes his Christopher Nolan film debut playing Menelaus, king of Sparta. A few weeks into production in the Moroccan desert, the cast shot the Trojan horse sequence, one of the film's most iconic scenes. Matt Damon's character and more than a dozen warriors cram inside the belly of the horse, waiting to invade tr. The horse sits partially submerged, and Bernthal draws the short straw, neck deep, treading in freezing water that was supposed to be heated. And word has it, as Bernthal stood there shivering, Nolan offered to pull him out, but he refused. Jon Bernthal, welcome to FRESH air.
[02:17]
Jon Bernthal
Thank you so much for having me. It's a real honor.
[02:19]
Tanya Mosley
Why did you refuse to get out of that cold, freezing water?
[02:22]
Jon Bernthal
Boy, I don't feel like I drew the short straw at all. I think anytime you know that you really care about something or you believe in something, if you have the opportunity to sort of be the one to say, send me first, let me show you what I can do. I feel like our grit and our dedication is the one thing that we have control of in this world. And I Love doing this. I love that I got to work for Chris and with Chris, and if he wanted to send somebody, I wanted to be that first one, for sure. I think that's, you know, I would jump at that.
[02:56]
Tanya Mosley
Again, it's interesting Matt Damon said, you pushing through that uncomfortable moment. I mean, like, really, because it was the hardest role he said he's ever played, just physically. And so to see you sit in that uncomfortable situation actually pushed him to push through his discomfort. Tell us a little bit about that character and the significance of you being submerged in that water for all of that time.
[03:23]
Jon Bernthal
Look, you know, so kind of Matt to say that. But like I said, I really wouldn't have had it any other way. You know, when you look at that film and the experience for the folks that made it, I remember my first day arriving there, just seeing the look in his eyes. He's a guy I know. He's a guy that I respect deeply. Yeah, for sure. And just, you know, the first words he said to me when I saw him on this beach with thousands of extras in Morocco right after traveling across the world, he just said, john, I've never seen anything like this before. And I said, me too, man. But if you haven't seen it, well, no one. And I thought that on this film specifically, you know, there was a group of men that were Odysseus's men that were in this journey throughout the whole piece. And a lot of them, you know, were in the background. A lot of them didn't take their helmets off for the majority of the picture. But I feel that that group of people really was the backbone of the film, performance wise. They add so much, they bring so much, and every day they are grinding and grinding and grinding. And what I was so grateful for is that I really got to be a part of that for the first month and a half. And I've been in that group in a few other films, and I know what that's like. And a lot of times you're sort of in that group or you're not in that group. And if you come in sort of like I did, where you have a few scenes, you're usually not a part of that group. But I was so inspired by them. And to be sort of a soldier of the story and to be a grunt of the story is such an honor.
[04:53]
Tanya Mosley
Well, you have had quite a busy few years. And the other film that's coming out this summer is Spider Man. I have yet to see it. I'm gonna see it tonight. So it's crazy that I have. Wait, you said you, too?
[05:06]
Jon Bernthal
Yeah, yeah, I'm seeing it tonight, too.
[05:08]
Tanya Mosley
Yeah. So you haven't seen it fully yet?
[05:10]
Jon Bernthal
No.
[05:10]
Tanya Mosley
Okay, so you've played Frank Castle for 10 years, and you've been pretty protective of this particular role, like you take up for him and all of his shortcomings as well, and you're bringing him to this Spider man movie rated for kids. What did you. Or did you negotiate or refuse to let them soften when it comes to the Punisher in particular for this movie?
[05:36]
Jon Bernthal
Yeah. Look, I think historically, this is a character, you know, for the folks that don't know, you know, it's a character who's. Whose family was killed in sort of a shootout between a bunch of different criminal figures from the underworld. That and his family and children were taken from him right when he got back from fighting overseas. He's a Force Recon Marine, and in our version of Marine Raider, and it brings up so many issues, but I think beyond just sort of the spiraling, reeling loss of his family and how he's reacting to that, we've really sort of delved into issues of PTSD and traumatic brain injury and the feeling with so many vets who come home, guys who are tip of the spear, vets who really feel lost and wayward and don't know what to do next. And, you know, look, I think I've said before, I was quite trepidatious and hesitant about sort of getting into the superhero world. It wasn't something that I was looking to do. It wasn't something that I sought out.
[06:39]
Tanya Mosley
How come?
[06:40]
Jon Bernthal
You know, for a few reasons, I think, you know, the guys, the folks that I've respected the most in acting, some of my heroes, not that I respect the most, but a lot of my heroes sort of never went that way. And I think times have definitely changed. But, you know, to have superpowers or to fly through the air, I just. That. That just never. I think the characters that I'm really interested in are enormously grounded. I try to make them, and I try to find things about them that I can deeply relate to, or they take me down a path that scares me intensely. And so I have to go sort of explore that path.
[07:21]
Tanya Mosley
And with the Punisher in particular.
[07:23]
Jon Bernthal
Yeah, look, I've said before, there's no way that I could begin to take on that character if I wasn't a husband and a father first. First and foremost, and to fully and palpably understand, you know, what the feeling of loving people on this earth and happily give my life for these people on my earth. On this earth. How would it feel if these people were taken from me? So I always want Frank to live there. And he's not a character looking for the light. He's not a character looking for things to get easier or for things to get better yet. He's a human being. And I, all the time with my, you know, the roles that I play, I love opportunities to turn my back on the audience. And I love to sort of take it too far, to try to push myself to a place or push the audience to a place where they can no longer be with this character, but then try to win them back through showing the fragility of their heart, showing how brokenhearted they are, showing how much they're. How much pain they have. Because I do think pain is a real adhesive, and I think it's the thing that really connects all of us.
[08:26]
Tanya Mosley
And so fascinating, John, because it's true that pain is the thing, but most human beings don't want to face that. We kind of live our lives avoiding it and then dealing with it when we have to. But you in particular seem to run towards it in every way, both physically and mentally. And your toughness has a history. You grew up in Washington, D.C. one of three brothers. You went to Sid Will Friends, the Quaker school where presidents have sent their children. It's kind of a place known for non violence and peace, right?
[09:02]
NPR Announcer
Absolutely.
[09:03]
Tanya Mosley
Yeah. And by your own telling, here you were in this school in fights and always chasing the most dangerous thing in the room, it seems. What did that look like?
[09:15]
Jon Bernthal
Yeah, I think never fighting in school ever, you know, and I really think that sort of the values of that school, you know, were really ingrained in me. Even if it took me years and years for them to sort of come out and really come to fruition and to really understand and believe in them. But there's no question that, you know, when I was a young, scared, confused man that I did, I would run into the run towards the most wild, the most dangerous.
[09:45]
Tanya Mosley
What do you think it was you were attracted to about it and what did it look like?
[09:50]
Jon Bernthal
I think for so many young men, it's about fear. It's about fear and it's about shame. There's a wonderful book that has meant so much to me, and I really suggest everybody read it, but especially I think, young men. There's a book named Townie by Andre DeBou II. Incredible memoir, but it. But it's sort of. It really sort of tells the story about how fear and shame, you know, can kind of lead to violence and how we sometimes become the very thing that we're scared of. And I do have a real relationship, I think, with. With danger that I. That I have been in some situations that, you know, could have gone many ways. And I think to a certain point, I think that that's really important. I also am so grateful that I'm so far past that now and so far beyond that now. And that mostly that I found this work that all of the reckless abandon and sort of wild things that I got into as a young man, I can bring that same energy into my work, and hopefully I can bring these kinds of folks. I can bring a real humanity to these kinds of folks, and through that same sort of reckless abandonment and wildness. And I think that that is. That's my favorite way of working.
[11:04]
Tanya Mosley
So you're a young man and you are in this school where you're learning all these wonderful things about conflict resolution. I heard you talk about there's this Quaker ritual where you all would sit in silence, and then when you had something that you needed to say, you could say it. Can you describe that?
[11:21]
Jon Bernthal
Sure. I mean, it's, you know, the way that Quakers worship is so beautiful. And, you know, there's no hierarchy in that religion. There's no priests, there's no rabbis, there's no ministers. There's just fundamental belief that there's that of God in everyone. And. And that's something, again, that at the time, you know, I looked at those meeting for worships as just a time to either sleep or look at girls or, you know, because you all sit
[11:46]
Tanya Mosley
in a room and it just be quiet.
[11:48]
Jon Bernthal
Everybody is silenced. You know, every coach, every security guard, everybody from buildings and grounds, every teacher, every administrator, every student, you would just sit in silence together. And the idea is, if that of God moves you, you get up and you address the congregation, whatever comes from your heart. And I fundamentally believe in that.
[12:07]
Tanya Mosley
Did you ever do that?
[12:08]
Jon Bernthal
I did. I did. I only did it once. I only did it once. And it was actually, strangely, after I had gotten into an altercation outside of school, and I talked about. I've never spoke about this before, but there was a man who came after my little brother on a basketball court in D.C. and I ended up getting into an altercation with this man. And I spoke about it because I was so scared, but I ended up having this just unbelievably profound sense of sorrow for this man. And I really empathized with this man. And I really saw a lot of myself in this man at that time. That was the only time I spoke. And it was a profound experience because I didn't plan to speak. I didn't go in saying, today's my day to speak and meeting for worship. It really did just hit me in the moment, which was strange for that point in my life.
[13:03]
Tanya Mosley
Your father was a corporate lawyer and is that right?
[13:06]
Jon Bernthal
He became that? Yeah, at first, yeah.
[13:09]
Tanya Mosley
Your grandfather a musician and a producer, and your mom and brothers are also powerhouses. I mean, you come from a really impressive family. It sounds like discipline and accomplishment were a big part of the foundation of you guys. And how would they describe your place in the family?
[13:27]
Jon Bernthal
Oh, boy. I was definitely the black sheep. You know, I was definitely the one who got in trouble. I was definitely, definitely the one who.
[13:36]
Tanya Mosley
You're the middle boy.
[13:37]
Jon Bernthal
I was the middle boy. You know, both of my brothers are enormously, sort of, quote unquote, successful. So my eldest brother, you know, right out of college, got into the news. He was a producer. I think he won four Emmys. By the time he was 22, he was the youngest producer on TV. And then he started this small firm, which it was enormously successful. And then my little brother, who just kind of was always that. He was an all American football player and played basketball at Princeton and, you know, went to medical school. My wife is a ICU trauma nurse. I was living with my wife and my little brother when he was in medical school. And I was a starting struggling actor, just taking odd jobs to get by. But, you know, my brother now is, you know, he's the head of oncology and orthopedics here at ucla.
[14:29]
Tanya Mosley
How proud your parents must be of you guys.
[14:31]
Jon Bernthal
Yeah. But again, I gotta tell you, my dad grew up in a split family home. My parents didn't come from much. There was never a huge onus in my house for achievement or they weren't pushing us. We lived in D.C. we had an open door policy. My house was the house that if you were in trouble, you came to talk to my dad. If you needed a bed, you came to my mom. They were foster parents. They took in foster kids. The alchemy of how they did it was so extraordinary. And I have to tell you, without a doubt, I am the failure of the family. I've done the least by far. And what they are most proud of is how close we are. And, you know, my parents really put up with a lot with me. They really did.
[15:17]
Tanya Mosley
What do you think it was that had you driving towards that danger for you as a young person, Because I do think it plays into the way you're able to give such a real performance of these conflicted and violent people that you often portray.
[15:35]
Jon Bernthal
I don't know. I mean, honestly, it's a good question. You know, as a young man, I know I saw my older brother get picked on a good bit, and I know that I sort of made a choice that that was never gonna happen to me. And I know that I was really sort of fell into sort of a natural protector role for my little brother. And then I think it just kind of got carried away. And I think that again, you know, I think never underestimate the power of fear and shame, you know, And I think you can go from somebody who's very scared into somebody who is very scary. And I think that that is just the sort of the natural progression of things, unfortunately, so much of the time. And then I think it's. You also then have a potential to go to the next place, which is, you know, you can start using that. You can come to a place where you're comfortable and you're confident. Confident, and you're open to all kinds of thoughts. And there's, There's. You're not led by fear, you're not led by shame. You're really. You. You become curious. And I do genuinely believe that's where I. I am now. I'm. I'm really hungry and open and curious. And I don't. I really try not to judge folks, and I really do see that, you know, I found wisdom and grace and beauty in folks that a lot of people would label as some of the scariest people out there.
[17:04]
Tanya Mosley
Acting finds you, though, in a very interesting way, almost by accident. So you're this hellion in Washington D.C. as you put it. You go to Skidmore College to play baseball. You walk into an intro acting class as a freshman thinking that you can kind of sleep through it. And the first assignment is for you to bring something you care about and talk about it in this acting class and you forgot. So you grab your catcher's glove and you spin this story that your mother had given it to you on her deathbed, but she's alive and well. And do you remember how you felt after you gave this monologue and you looked around the room and you saw the responses of everybody?
[17:52]
Jon Bernthal
I was blown away. It was an out of body experience. I had told this story and I knew that it took that leap to sort of jump into something. It never dawned on me that it even mattered whether it was true or not in that room. I knew my back was against the wall. I know I hadn't brought anything. I knew it was an enormously emotive room and a level of sort of openness with these young artists, these serious young theater artists that I was completely unfamiliar with. And I knew that I had to jump. And it was no different, honestly, than jumping into a street fight or jumping into a football game or jumping into a situation that, okay, there's only one thing to do here if you're sparring and boxing, okay, let's go. You just take that step and you go. And I have, from a young age been quite addicted to that step. And I knew that that step was necessary there, even though I had no idea what I was doing. And I always come back to this word, reckless abandonment. You stop thinking, you get out of your own head, and you just go forward and you try to connect with something bigger. And, you know, I do remember kind of coming back to myself with tears down my eyes, you know, with the story that I completely made up, but then also, you know, noticing while I was telling the story the sort of grip, the real palpable grip that I had over the other folks in the room. And I saw the emotion from them, and I knew that it was something special, and I knew that it was something. Something very, very powerful.
[19:22]
Tanya Mosley
And your teacher, your teacher, though, yeah, she saw the talent in you, but she called bull. She knew that this was Alma Becker.
[19:30]
Jon Bernthal
Is her name Alma Becker? Yeah, her name's right here on my wrist.
[19:33]
Tanya Mosley
You have a tattoo?
[19:34]
Jon Bernthal
I do. It's of the Moscow Art Theater and Alma's name. And, yeah, she saved my life. You know, I mean, she was as, you know, what I found that day with her was a level of vitality and a level of, you know, I always sort of thought of the arts in my own sort of naive way, that it was a soft place. It was a place of just complete acceptance and not one of rigor and discipline and real vitality. And boy, did she. Boy, did she give it to me and sort of ripped me apart.
[20:12]
Tanya Mosley
And she saw something in you?
[20:16]
Jon Bernthal
She did. She said, yeah. Her punishment was that I had to audition for the play for the college production.
[20:23]
Tanya Mosley
Our guest today is actor Jon Bernthal. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is FRESH air.
[20:30]
NPR Announcer
This message comes from NPR sponsor Carvana. Carvana believes selling your car should be easy. Get a real offer down to the penny picked up from your driveway you may keep waiting for a catch. There isn't one. Sell today@carvana.com Pickup fees may apply support
[20:48]
Tanya Mosley
for this podcast and the following message come from Strawberry Me. Be honest. Are you happy with your job? Are you stuck in a job you've outgrown or never wanted in the first place? Are your reasons for staying really just excuses for not leaving? Let a career coach from Strawberry Me help you get unstuck. Discover the benefits of having a dedicated career coach in your Corner and get 50% off your first coaching session at Strawberry Me.
[21:16]
NPR Announcer
NPR this message comes from Cachava. It can be tough to stick to your wellness routine, especially when you're on the go. Cachava's new travel packs make it easier. Just one packet provides nutrition ready for wherever life takes you with protein, fiber, greens, probiotics, electrolytes and more. Take your daily ritual with you. Go to cachava.com and use code NPR. New customers get 15% off their first order. That's K-C-H-A-V A.com code NPR this is FRESH AIR.
[21:50]
Tanya Mosley
I'm Tonya Mosley, and my guest today is actor Jon Bernthal. He returns as the Punisher in the new Spider man film Brand New Day. He also stars in Christopher Nolan's epic the Odyssey. He's also the host of the podcast Real Ones, where he sits down with the kinds of people he spent his career playing police officers, veterans, former gang members. When we left off, we were talking about how he discovered and fell in love with acting in college. So you did that, and you did that for a while. You started to really get into it. You started to really feel it. And your teacher, her answer to you as she saw your talent blossom was that you needed to go to Russia, to the Moscow Art Theater School, one of the most demanding classical conservatories in the world. It is 1999. You don't speak a lick of oppression and you go, why? Why Russia of all places?
[22:46]
Jon Bernthal
I think just like what you were talking about with, you know, Mr. Nolan in the beginning, I would have done anything Alma told me to do. I wanted this. It didn't take long. I auditioned for that play. And I remember telling my best friend Greg Zumas that summer. I remember sitting down with him when we had, you know, we were we were delivering pizzas at the beach. And I remember telling him, man, this is what I, what I have to do. This is what I'm gonna do. Like, there's no question. And I think, number one, you know, this sort of private School kid from who thought he was all big and bad. Getting out and really seeing the world and seeing Moscow, I think would be enormously humbling and just be a reality check that I needed. I think she also knew that I needed to kind of get away from all the people that I was with and that it was a group of young men that sort of crave danger is much different than one man on his own. But mostly, you know, Russia is and was a place with such a rich theatrical history, where being an actor is such a serious profession. You can't do it without real rigorous training. There's statues of actors, you know, in the city. It's much more akin to being a soldier.
[24:00]
Tanya Mosley
And it's that way because it's not taken for granted there.
[24:04]
Jon Bernthal
Absolutely.
[24:05]
Tanya Mosley
Because it's been. It's policed, it's been censored, of course.
[24:07]
Jon Bernthal
I mean, actors have been assassinated, directors have been assassinated in their homes. The opportunity to get a group of people to gather publicly and to put on a show was something that for so long was controlled by the state. It was controlled by the state for all of my teachers. So for them, this was not a hobby. This was not something that you just got to do. It was such a privilege, it was such an honor. An honor that they performed in plays. Where had they been caught. They risked imprisonment, they risked assassination. Putting on theatrical productions that weren't state sponsored was absolutely risking the. And they did it anyway, all of them. It changed everything for me.
[24:48]
Tanya Mosley
It's really interesting that she saw in you that a place like Russia, because when we think about Russia, I mean, conditions are tough, it is rough. You went to Russia and you're like, wait, I thought I was a tough guy.
[25:03]
Jon Bernthal
Oh, yeah. The brutality there was unlike anything I had ever seen. But so was the beauty. And there were equal parts. Look, I don't want to overdo the brutality. I mean, you know, I have. I had guns, multiple guns pulled on me within my first week there. I saw people that were left dead in the street. I saw a level of desperation, of wildness, of unbelievable disparity between those that have and those that do not. People called it the wild, wild west, but it was run by criminals. That's just what was going on there then.
[25:41]
Tanya Mosley
And you were yet going to school every day, going to class every day.
[25:44]
Jon Bernthal
Yeah. Living in this tiny little place with four other people. I slept on the floor. We turned the lights on. You know, the cockroaches would go everywhere. You'd feel them climbing over you all at night. The buildings had curfews. So you, you know, you could only get in and out at certain times. And then if you needed to get out, you know, you'd throw the fire hose down and you'd rappel down out of the windows. I mean, it was it was a wild place in a wild time, but the most alive, the most impactful time of my life, without a doubt.
[26:14]
Tanya Mosley
If you're just joining us, my guest today is actor Jon Bernthal. He stars in the new Christopher Nolan epic the Odyssey, in theaters now. And he reprises the role as Frank Castle, the Punisher in the new Spider man film in theaters this week. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH air.
[26:34]
NPR Announcer
Support for this NPR podcast. And the following message come from Carvana. Selling your car car. Carvana has offers so good they're almost inexplicable. Sell your car 100% online in minutes. Visit Carvana.com today. This message comes from Cachava. It can be tough to stick to your wellness routine, especially when you're on the go. Kachava's new travel packs make it easier. Just one packet provides nutrition ready for wherever life takes you with protein, fiber, grains, probiotics, electrolytes and more. Take your daily ritual with you. Go to kachava.com and use code NPR. New customers get 15% off their first order. That's K A C H-A-V A.com code NPR.
[27:20]
Jon Bernthal
We've just marked one year since Congress voted to eliminate federal funding for public media. NPR remains committed to informing the public. But a free press doesn't just happen. It's something we need to protect without federal funding. We are relying on your support. Now. Please show your support before the end of the month. Visit plus.NPR.org this is FRESH AIR.
[27:43]
Tanya Mosley
And today I am talking with actor Jon Bernthal. He returns as the Punisher in the new Spider man film and stars in Christopher Nolan's epic the Odyssey. His breakout role was as Shane in the Walking Dead, and he won an Emmy for his role as Mikey in the bear. 2010 finally comes. You're in Los Angeles the Walking Dead, playing Shane, a sheriff deputy trying to hold a group of survivors together at the end of the world. And this role is considered your breakout role, but you've been open a year before, almost to the day. Your life had nearly ended because of a conflict that had happened in Venice. Yeah. What happened?
[28:27]
Jon Bernthal
Yeah, I mean, I've spoken about it before. You know, I think that that was sort of the tail end of all of the walls that I had walked into. There are so many times that, you know, I should have learned my lesson. And I think for a while there, I believe that kind of my. My wildness. I think I suffered from something that a lot of young artists suffer from, where I thought that sort of my wildness and that reckless abandon that I talked to you about before, that I thought that I needed to hang on to that in order now to be a good artist, that the two things came hand in hand, like at your
[29:02]
Tanya Mosley
edge, like it was your edge or a little bit.
[29:04]
Jon Bernthal
And I knew that I was capable. I'd been to places that a lot of actors hadn't been. I'd been in situations that a lot of them had been, and I'd been capable of things that a lot of them weren't capable of. And I felt that that was something that I kind of needed. And yes, in July 3, 2009, I was in a situation where, you know, I was confronted by a group of men. One of them, you know, came at my dog, and they started to follow me, and I fought them. And, you know, one. One of them got enormously hurt, seriously hurt, and we weren't sure whether he was gonna wake up. And that led to one of the most profound moments of my life where, you know, I was at the LA County Jail, you know, handcuffed to a bench, not knowing which way this was gonna go. And, you know, I've spoken about it before, but, you know, in a place where I was quite aware that we were now being led to a place where all of these things that. All of these gifts that I had been given, all of this protection that I had because of my father, all of this unbelievable opportunity of being in trouble. This wasn't the first time I'd been in trouble a lot. And I'd gotten to go to Russia, I'd gotten to be in movies at this point, be on TV shows, and here I was, handcuffed to a damn bench, not knowing if this guy was gonna wake up. And
[30:31]
Tanya Mosley
you made a promise to yourself.
[30:32]
Jon Bernthal
I did. I think what happened there, you know, honestly, was. I knew, and it wasn't. It wasn't a shameful thought, and it wasn't a scary thought. I just knew that this man wasn't gonna wake up and that this was gonna be my life. I mean, I don't want to say it this way, but it's just the truth, so I will. I heard a voice, and the voice said, look, this is gonna be your life. And now. And so it's time to let all that other stuff go. It's time to go in there. And I knew enough about what it would mean to have a serious charge in LA and what that would mean for my life going forward. And I understood it and I wasn't scared of it. I accepted it and I even welcomed it. And I said, okay, well, that's that then. It's time to say goodbye. But then this other voice came and it just said, oh, man, it pled. And it just said, if. If you just give me this shot, if you just one more time. Even though my butt has been saved so many times, I am not a kid who didn't come from opportunities. I did. And I never learned this damn lesson. But, oh, man, if you just. If you can just get me out of this one. And it's palpable how many folks don't get that? And, you know, right at that moment, an officer came in and said that he had woken up. Up. And I said that if that happens, I'm done. I'm gonna devote myself to this work. I'm gonna get married, I'm gonna have a family. I'm gonna devote myself to service. I'm gonna be the best version of myself that I possibly can be. And look, that situation didn't. Surely didn't end right then. There were still consequences. There was still.
[32:04]
Tanya Mosley
But he survived. And like that, that means that's significant. I mean, beyond what's obvious for him and for you for sure.
[32:13]
Jon Bernthal
And look, as you. You were alluding to, one year later, engaged to my wife, free from alcohol on the set of this TV show that I just knew. I just knew I had to do. I had to do it. You know, I was there with my friend Sarah, wayne callis on July 3rd, just beginning this process the next year. The next year. And I went home and I wrote that guy a letter. And I knew that what I saw in that man night was I saw myself. I. I knew that, you know, this sort of vile, rambunctious, aggressive, bad man child was something that I had seen in myself. And I knew that that had to. I had to be done with that. And I have been done with it. And the thing that is not lost in me and I think really does pertain to so many of the roles that I play is, as I'm sure you know, so many people are in that exact same situation that I'm in and they don't get saved and it doesn't turn out well. And, and. And that's why I fundame that hope and love and yearning and the things that make us human are prevalent in everyone, even in the most violent, even in the most secluded, even in the most desperate. And so I always try to find those things in the people that I
[33:34]
Tanya Mosley
play this role in. The Walking Dead. It's one year later, July 3, 2010. You're walking on the set in Atlanta, a year sober, as you said. And this character, Shane, he's a sheriff's deputy trying to hold a group of survivors together. And I actually wanna play a clip. So this is a scene from season two, episode six, Secrets. And Dale, played by Jeffrey Demun, who is often seen as the voice of reason among the group, kind of senses your character Shane is trouble because of his aggressive attitude and short fuse. And he also believes you might have killed somebody. Okay, so. And he urges your character to leave the group, and your character Shane, pushes back and threatens him. Let's listen.
[34:27]
Jon Bernthal
You've been vague about that night, about what happened. Otis died a hero. So you've said. A little boy lived because of what went down that night. I think you ought to show some gratitude. I wasn't there. Oh, man, you weren't. But I was the time that you raised your gun on Rick. You had him in your sights and you held him there. I know what kind of man you are. You think I shoot Rick? That is my best friend. That's a man that I love. I love him like he's my brother. You think that's the kind of man I am?
[35:08]
Tanya Mosley
That's right.
[35:09]
Jon Bernthal
Well, maybe we oughta just think that through. Say I'm the kind of man gunned down his own best friend. What you think I'd do to some guy that I don't even like when he starts throwing accusations my way? What, you think?
[35:25]
Tanya Mosley
That was my guest today, John Bernthalan, in the Walking Dead. And it's all in the eyes between the two of you in that scene. You know, this is a chilling piece of acting. And knowing what you were going through in your own life and this promise that you made to yourself, in a way, it's like you're channeling that kind of rage and anger into this character. What is it like to visit a character like this? The thing you promised to kind of
[35:54]
Jon Bernthal
leave behind in your own life such a blessing. Such a blessing. It's profound. You know, the thing that I thought I needed to cling to in order to be the guy that I was, in order to have the relationships that I had, in order to sort of keep my reputation among my friends or to deal with my shame when I was around all these sort of toxic things that I think plague so many young men here, I found this thing that I could tap into those same exact things, take them enormously seriously and find the truth in them. I know the truth in that stuff. And here I was, I, I could use it one level to have a job, but two and much more importantly to hopefully reach folks. And I think to tap into things that I feel is the thing that I love most about art is when you tap into a color or to a sound or to an emotion that we know that we felt, that we know that we've seen, we know as part of the experience, but we can't really label it and say, oh, yeah, I felt that. I know that. I know that guy. I've seen that guy. I see that kind of pain. That was the blessing of my career, without a doubt.
[37:05]
Tanya Mosley
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is actor John Bernthal. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH air.
[37:13]
NPR Announcer
This message comes from Cachava. It can be tough to stick to your wellness routine, especially when you're on the go. Cachava's new travel packs make it easier. Just one packet provides nutrition ready for wherever life takes you with protein, fiber, grains, probiotics, electrolytes and poison. Take your daily ritual with you. Go to cachava.com and use code NPR. New customers get 15% off their first order. That's K A C H A V a dot com code npr.
[37:44]
Tanya Mosley
This week on Here and now, anytime Democratic voters in Michigan sound off ahead
[37:49]
Jon Bernthal
of the big primary election on Tuesday. The average American I don't feel like our voice is being heard. Feel like a little man at the
[37:55]
NPR Announcer
bottom of the total.
[37:56]
Tanya Mosley
Also, Haitian Americans in Ohio fear deportation after losing their temporary protected status. All that and more on here and
[38:04]
Jon Bernthal
now Anytime Listen on the NPR app
[38:06]
Tanya Mosley
or wherever you get your podcasts. This is FRESH air. And today my guest is Emmy winning actor Jon Bernthal. He's in two major films this summer, Christopher Nolan's the Odyssey, where he plays Menelaus King of Sparta and the new Spider man film, reprising his role as Frank Castle the Punisher, the character he first made famous in the Netflix series. His breakout role was as Shane in the Walking Dead and he won an Emmy for playing Mikey in the Bear. He just ended his run on Broadway starring alongside his longtime friend Eben Moss Bachrach in the play Dog Day Afternoon. So Eben is the One that pulled you into the bear. Right. So the way you've told it, there is no script, no pitch, just Eben saying, hey, man, do me a favor. You need to come on this. Like you need to do this. And so you took it blind, and that favor became Mikey, which you won an Emmy for. Congratulations.
[39:01]
Jon Bernthal
Thank you.
[39:02]
Tanya Mosley
The storyline is that he took his own life and everything in the show, the restaurant, all of it is kind of centered around the crater that is left with your absence, and you appear only in flashbacks and memories. Was there a particular thought about the way that you took on this role, knowing that you would kind of be like this figure that's not there, but is there at the same time?
[39:27]
Jon Bernthal
For me, I don't think you can go about it that way. I remember David Simon telling me that, you know, the second that he would tell a character on the wire that they were dying, they would start eating a Ritz cracker like it was the last time they'd ever eat a Ritz cracker. You can't. I heard these things about, you know, we need him to be larger than life and we need him to, you know, be this, you know, yeah, you know, you can't go in and play a role. This guy's got to hang over all. You know, where you see him in the first season is so unbelievably different from where you see him in the second season. They allowed him to get ugly. They allowed to see the other side in the first season. You see this smile and this warmth and this ability to tell the story and how much everybody, you know, when we lose people, the rose colored lens, the glorification, I mean, you know, it's a part of it. And I loved sort of that color.
[40:20]
Tanya Mosley
You and Evan, as you said, you wrote this episode together of the Bear Called Gary. And in this prequel, so Mikey is alive. It's before everything. It's on a road trip from Chicago to Gary, Indiana, and you're with Richie, who is Eben's character, and on an unspecified mission. And during that trip, Mikey meets a woman named Sherry, played by Maren Ireland, at a Gary, Indiana, bar. And they go into a bathroom stall together, kind of have a little. Little drugs, and they share an intimate moment about how kind Mikey's mother was when she was high. And what's so powerful about this is that we know Mikey had issues, but they were never really laid out. And here he is talking to a stranger, and we're seeing him, his most open, intimate self, with a stranger in a bathroom stall. And It's a little. But we're gonna listen to it. It's Mikey talking to Sherry, telling him about this memory. Let's listen.
[41:26]
Jon Bernthal
When I was a kid, you know, my mom, she used to do this thing where, like, when she was like, on, like, the perfect mixture of, like, all kinds of things in her system, you know, it's just like, perfect. She'd, like, come in my room in the middle of the night, you know, and she'd, like, scratch my back. And she had, like, the longest nails, and she'd just, you know, and she used to, she used to walk me through my day, you know, like, like the most admiring minute details, you know, like, like what we're gonna eat, when we're gonna wake up, what I was gonna wear, what was gonna be on the radio. Like, everything, you know, just, like, it would make me feel like. I don't know, like I, I, it would just make me feel so relaxed.
[42:01]
NPR Announcer
Yeah.
[42:02]
Jon Bernthal
Like, really calm. Yeah. And like, no matter what was gonna happen that day, it didn't matter, like, test or some I had to deal with. Like, I knew that and she had planned it for me.
[42:11]
Tanya Mosley
It was great.
[42:11]
Jon Bernthal
And I remember there was this one time I was like, hey, Mom, Ma. Hey, Ma, Will you come in and tell me about my day tomorrow? And she was like, she got angry, you know, and she's like. She was like, mike, you, difference does it make? It's just a day, like I said. Didn't understand how that could be, like, how that could be the same person, you know? That's so scary. Yeah.
[42:44]
NPR Announcer
Yeah.
[42:44]
Jon Bernthal
She shouldn't have done that.
[42:47]
Tanya Mosley
She tried her best, you say there at the end. She tried her best. That was my guest, Jon Bernthal. He wrote that with Ebon Moss Bachrach. It's a prequel episode of the Bear. And oh, what a powerful scene, you know?
[43:02]
NPR Announcer
Yeah.
[43:04]
Jon Bernthal
There's so much in that. First of all, I just think that the show too, it's, it's such a deep dive into mental health and, and the fragility of, of, of, of people and, and, you know, look, my, I, I had a dear friend of mine who, who lost his father and, and, and he used to talk to me about how at, at, at certain times, at like 3:30 in the morning, his dad would be on, like, the perfect combination of alcohol and drugs. And he would come into the room and he would just have this sort of level of peace that, so he, he would just sort of set his alarm. So he would like, kind of always be able to talk to his dad. In that state. And my mom used to come in to my room every night, some nights and scratch my back and tell me about my day. And I love the fact that sometimes in life we can only really talk about ourselves. We can really only explain what's really going on with ourselves with complete strangers in that scene, I think. So. Sort of the thing that's going on in Mikey more than anything else is that he knows that within the same person, he knows he's got exactly what his mom's got, and he knows that it's a hereditary thing and that it's real. And he knows that what makes him so special and so attractive and so irresistible just, you know, can also make him so repulsive and so dark and so impossible to be around. I love that in the opportunity of this show, we got to have this sort of reprieve where, you know, he got to sort of talk about what was exactly about to happen when he unravels with Eben. And I think as much as the episode is funny and it's a slice in time, and it's a sort of road trip, and it's a la Cassavetes. And, you know, I'm so proud of the piece.
[44:48]
Tanya Mosley
One of my favorite roles of yours is a really small one, but it's a very powerful one, and it's your most gentle. And it's you and Ava DuVernay's film Origin. It's about writer Isabel Wilkerson and how she came to write her book cast. And you play her husband, Brett, who. He is warm, he is devoted, and he's strong. And his death is one of the losses that sends Isabel's character into grief and where the book cast gets written. And I read that you actually fought for this role. Yeah, tell me about that after reading Cast.
[45:26]
Jon Bernthal
Yeah, I mean, look, I beg everybody to read that book.
[45:30]
Tanya Mosley
How did you even get introduced to the book?
[45:32]
Jon Bernthal
You know, before I went to Russia, I never read I. And I remember we got. There's a thing called Black Tuesday where they basically cut half the class, and everybody has to go in front of all your teachers, and you sort of. They analyze you. And for me, it was doubly hard because they would analyze me in Russian, and then I'd have to wait for the translation. And you sort of are known whether you get kicked out or not. And so some people walk out in tears, some people walk out in joy. And I remember my acting teachers, and again, I'm hearing this through translation, but they said, you know, John, your. Your talent. I remember this so perfectly. Your talent's like a gem. It's like a wild gem. But they said it's completely unformed. You have no elegance. They said, we bet you don't read. And I'm like, never read a book in my life, you know, like, never done it, you know. And they said, from this point on, never let there be a moment. If you want to be an actor, if you want to be an artist, never let there be a moment where you're not reading. And I really took that to heart and I just dove in. So, you know, Abel, Ava. I was so blown away by Ava. I'm such a big fan of hers, you know, Angenu Ellis. I just think ingenue is just a force of nature. She is the greatest we have right now. And also, I felt like to be in a movie where your role is really to be in service like you're to be in, you know, that's really the kind of husband Brett was. It was aspirational. Here was this unbelievable woman with this unbelievable mind who could think in a way that no one else could. He really understood that his role was to serve her. And so, I don't know, it was something especially because so much of the time I'm sort of asked to represent these certain kind of, like, brands of masculinity. I think that character is every bit as, as. As masculine as the Punisher or, you know, the guy played in Shot Caller. You know, it's just.
[47:27]
Tanya Mosley
That's what's so powerful about it. I mean, right?
[47:30]
Jon Bernthal
He's strong, it's sturdy, it's thoughtful, it's caring. He's a protector, he's a provider. But it has nothing to do with bombast or bluster. And again, through the lens of raising young men, I believe in the ability to defend yourself. I believe in part of being a man is to be a provider, to be a protector. But it's also equally important to be kind and curious and sensitive and open and to be of service.
[48:00]
Tanya Mosley
Well, Jon Bernthal, I really thank you for your work and I thank you for this conversation.
[48:05]
Jon Bernthal
I appreciate you having me. I really do.
[48:07]
Tanya Mosley
Emmy winning actor Jon Bernthal, currently appearing in Christopher Nolan's the Odyssey. His film Brand New Day opens in theaters tomorrow. If you'd like to catch up on interviews you've missed, like our conversation with classicist Emily Wilson, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of Fresh Air interviews. You can also watch some of our interviews on our YouTube page. This is Fresh Air. And to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers recommendations on what to watch, read and listen to. Subscribe to our free newsletter@why.org fresh air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Stanischewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman, Nico Gonzalez Whistler and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly CV Nesper. Thea Challoner directed to Jennifer show with Terry Gross. I'm Tanya Moseley. This message comes from Integrative Therapeutics, makers of Cortisol Manager, named best overall Ashwagandha supplement by Vogue. Use code STRESS2026 for 20% off of cortisol Manager on Amazon.com this message comes from Cachava.
[49:42]
NPR Announcer
It can be tough to stick to your wellness routine, especially when you're on the go. Kachava's new travel packs make it easy, easier. Just one packet provides nutrition ready for wherever life takes you with protein, fiber, greens, probiotics, electrolytes and more. Take your daily ritual with you. Go to kachava.com and use code NPR. New customers get 15% off their first order. That's K-C-H-A-V A.com code NPR.