Actor Oscar Isaac is ‘a vulture’ of his own life

Summary

Fresh Air – Oscar Isaac is ‘a Vulture’ of his Own Life
Date: April 21, 2026
Host: Tonya Mosley
Guest: Oscar Isaac, actor

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Episode Overview

In this candid and wide-ranging episode of Fresh Air, host Tonya Mosley sits down with acclaimed actor Oscar Isaac. The conversation explores Isaac’s latest roles—including the second season of Netflix’s Beef and his turn as Victor Frankenstein in Guillermo del Toro’s adaptation—as well as his personal artistry, the role of acting in his life, grief, generational perspectives, and the way creativity and family intertwine. Isaac opens up about the emotional undercurrents guiding his performances, what it means to be an observer of his own life, and building legacy and connection, especially through music with his children.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Transitioning Between Characters: From Frankenstein to Beef

• Blending Personas for Depth (03:03–04:30):
  • Isaac describes how, while playing Josh in Beef, he was still carrying the emotional intensity of Victor Frankenstein. Acting coach Kim Gillingham suggested “bringing Victor into the room,” which allowed him to transfer some of Victor’s pain and anger into Josh’s tightly wound, insecure persona. He underwent a meditative exercise where Frankenstein "spoke" to Josh, expressing anger at being trapped in a "small life."
• Quote:
  • “He was just so angry to be stuck in this little tiny man… that feeling of being strangled was coming a bit from that.” – Oscar Isaac (03:35)

2. The World and Anatomy of Josh in Beef

• Striving for Acceptance (04:40–05:33):
  • Isaac describes Josh as a self-made man, rising from cart barn worker to manager of an elite Los Angeles country club—always seeking proximity to power, but always on the outside.
  • “He wants access and there’s something in him that feels he’ll never be somebody that can become a member, and this is the closest he can get to have access to this kind of life.” – Oscar Isaac (05:07)
• Service and Belonging (05:53–07:59):
  • Josh, whose “love language is service,” enables the make-believe of the club’s wealthy members while losing his own identity.
  • Isaac shares an anecdote: general managers must “let people win,” even in tennis, to bolster clients’ egos—a dynamic blending service with self-abandonment.

3. Research & Realism in Beef (08:03)

• Immersing in the Real World (08:03–09:02):
  • Isaac drew on brief personal experience working at a Florida golf club but dove deeper by interviewing real club managers to ground Josh's character in authenticity.

4. Generational Satire:

• Millennials vs. Gen Z (11:35–12:57):
  • The show intentionally contrasts Isaac/Carey Mulligan’s millennial couple with Gen Z employees.
  • “...to kind of lean into some of those things unapologetically, like, kind of embrace the cringe and also have compassion for those things, that's part of embracing it.” – Oscar Isaac (12:14)
  • The show plays with audience judgments as characters oscillate between relatability and repulsiveness.

5. Moral Ambiguity and Justification (13:09–14:48)

• Personal Ethics, Family, and Self-Interest:
  • Josh’s theft is motivated first by necessity (his mom’s medical bills) and then by realization of systemic hypocrisy.
  • Quoting T Bone Burnett, Isaac reflects, “Nothing is as dangerous as belief.” When Josh believes he’s been wronged, he allows himself moral latitude—a shift from faithful rule-follower to pragmatic “get mine” actor.
  • “Everyone’s cheating, especially the clients of this club. And we have a right to get ours as well.” – Oscar Isaac (14:13)

6. Frankenstein as Mexican Melodrama (15:05–18:05)

• Working with Guillermo del Toro:
  • Isaac describes Del Toro’s Frankenstein as “a Mexican melodrama,” deeply autobiographical for the director and shot through with cultural intensity, passion, and musicality.
  • Directing in Spanish, Isaac’s mother tongue, enabled a more authentic, heartfelt performance and a connection beyond language.
  • “There was just something that just went deeper. It just went to some other part of my brain that usually isn’t accessed in that way.” – Oscar Isaac (16:37)
• Enduring Collaborations:
  • Isaac and Del Toro have formed a daily friendship, an unusual familial relationship for Isaac.

7. The Vulnerabilities and Humility of Performance (18:05–19:49)

• Art as High-Wire Act:
  • Isaac likens acting to circus life: intimately connected, humbling, often emotionally exposing.
  • “That’s the high wire act, I think, is watching somebody battle their own ego and embarrassment.” – Oscar Isaac (18:58)

8. Processing Life (and Loss) Through Art (21:40–29:15)

• Documenting Grief and Creation:
  • Discussing a new documentary captured by his wife, Elvira Lind, Isaac recounts his 2017 Hamlet production, framed by his mother’s passing and the birth of his first child.
  • Art ("the play") provided structure amid formless grief, but with time, Isaac recognizes the need to allow sadness, not only metabolize it through creativity.
  • “I needed to be saved from feeling sad that my mom passed... you don’t need to get saved from that. It’s okay. You can feel really sad that your mom’s dead. You don’t have to be rescued from that.” – Oscar Isaac (26:54)

9. The Actor as Observer—“A Vulture of My Own Life” (30:36–34:29)

• Self-Analysis and the Artist’s Guilt:
  • From early on, Isaac realized acting wasn’t just a craft but a survival/sense-making tool.
  • “I’m a little bit of a vulture of my own life. There’s... always a little other part that’s watching and, you know, eating up the little bits and pieces of real life that’s happening and gonna use that for something later.” – Oscar Isaac (31:17)
  • Both Isaac and Mosley relate to the observer’s guilt—and eventual acceptance—that comes from living partly outside oneself in order to transform experience into art.
  • Practices for Presence:
    • Therapy and meditation have helped Isaac cultivate a friendlier relationship with his mind, finding more joy and presence in the moment and in the work.

10. Music, Parenting, and Creativity at Home (34:29–38:30)

• Family Band—"Fleece Featuring Cool Dude":
  • Isaac describes playing music with his sons as an extension of his own creative upbringing.
  • He humorously acknowledges possibly “killing the vibe” by getting too into the band, reflecting on the delicate fun of sharing art with kids.
  • “[My son]’s got his own thing... we’re one of the projects that he works with.” – Oscar Isaac (35:03)
  • Playing and recording music together, as Isaac did with his own father, forges another kind of familial legacy beyond acting.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On blending acting and real life:
  “He [Victor] was just so angry to be stuck in this little tiny man… that feeling of being strangled was coming a bit from that.” (03:35)
• On the morality of theft:
  “When you believe you’ve been wronged, it entitles you to whatever you want to make that wrong right.” (13:09)
• On working in Spanish with Del Toro:
  “There was just something that just went deeper… it just went to some other part of my brain that usually isn’t accessed in that way.” (16:37)
• On the vulnerability of acting:
  “That’s the high wire act, I think, is watching somebody battle their own ego and embarrassment.” (18:58)
• On processing grief through art:
  “You don’t need to get saved from that. It’s okay. You can feel really sad that your mom’s dead. You don’t have to be rescued from that.” (26:54)
• On acting as self-observation:
  “I’m a little bit of a vulture of my own life…” (31:17)
• Advice for young actors:
  “Figure out how to train your mind to be your friend… and it’s not your enemy or your coach all the time or your angry coach.” (33:12)
• On music and family:
  “I want to have instruments readily available at all times just in case inspiration strikes and they want to go down and play. And that’s been a really lovely thing.” (37:28)

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• 03:03 – Isaac on blending Victor Frankenstein into Josh for Beef
• 05:07 – The limits of belonging and access for Josh’s character
• 09:40 – Clip demonstrating Josh’s attempt to bribe a young employee
• 12:14 – Generational dynamics in Beef (Millennials vs. Gen Z)
• 13:09 – On moral justifications, systemic double standards, and theft
• 16:37 – Impact of working in Spanish on Frankenstein
• 18:58 – The humbling, vulnerable nature of acting
• 22:18 – Filming the documentary about Hamlet, grief and family
• 25:42 – Documentary clip: art as solace and processing loss
• 30:36 – The actor as “a vulture of my own life”
• 33:12 – Advice for artists: cultivating a friendly mind through therapy and meditation
• 34:55 – Playing in the family band “Fleece,” music and fatherhood
• 37:28 – Musical legacy and bonding with his children

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Episode Tone & Atmosphere

This is an introspective, thoughtful conversation—alternately humorous, raw, searching, and wise. Both Mosley and Isaac share a spirit of authenticity, not shying away from vulnerability or complexity. Isaac’s warmth and openness about his artistic journey and personal growth offer listeners not just insight into his craft, but a broader sense of art’s role in navigating—and sometimes transforming—the mess and majesty of real life.

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Key themes: art as survival, the blurred line between observation & participation, moral ambiguity, generational difference, presence, and the joy of creation across generations.

Transcript

[Tonya Mosley]

This message comes from ixl. The IXL Level up diagnostic gives you clear, just in time insight into student learning with benchmark results and real time updates throughout the year. Even better, LevelUp creates a personalized action plan for every student that guides them to what they should practice on IXL to improve. Learn [e-mail] NPR this is FRESH AIR. I'm Tanya Moseley and my guest today, award winning actor Oscar Isaac was still deep inside one of the most consuming roles of his career, playing Victor Frankenstein when director Lee Seung Jin came calling for him to star in the second season of his Netflix series Beef. In Beef, Oscar plays Josh, the manager of an upscale Los Angeles country club. He's polished and charming, but underneath that smooth exterior, his life is falling apart because he's stealing from the club. And underneath the facade, his marriage is also falling apart. Oscar said at first he had a hard time connecting to this character, but it helped when an acting coach told him to try to bring the character of Victor Frankenstein into the role. How would Victor feel being trapped inside of Josh's small life? This is exactly what Oscar needed to step into the character in this scene from the series, Josh and his wife Lindsay, played by Carey Mulligan, are home after spending the day at the country club. They get into an argument which turns into a full blown fight with both of them saying the worst things a married couple could say to each other. It's intense. Charity committee meeting.

[Oscar Isaac]

I like doing that stuff. You like doing it.

[Tonya Mosley]

I've just gotten really good at protecting Lindsay.

[Oscar Isaac]

You get privileged access to titans in every industry and you love it.

[Tonya Mosley]

Who are these titans?

[Oscar Isaac]

We get to be friends with politicians and CEOs. We had dinner with Bono.

[Tonya Mosley]

That's the thing. You think that they're your friends, but they're not your staff.

[Oscar Isaac]

You're an employee.

[Tonya Mosley]

They pay you to be around.

[Oscar Isaac]

Well, one of us has to get paid. Maybe if we had a little more income, I wouldn't have to do this job that you find so repulsive.

[Tonya Mosley]

Well, I gave you my entire inheritance and we're still completely underwater.

[Oscar Isaac]

If you bring up my mother right now, I will lose my I do not regret a dime we spent on her.

[Tonya Mosley]

Oscar Isaac is a Golden Globe winner who has moved between indie films and global franchises from Shakespeare to Star Wars. His films and TV work include Inside Llewyn Davis, Dune Card Counter, Scenes From a Marriage, and most recently, Frankenstein. Oscar Isaac, welcome back to FRESH air.

[Oscar Isaac]

Thanks, Sonya. Very happy to be here.

[Tonya Mosley]

We're gonna get to that intense fight in just A second.

[Oscar Isaac]

I said when we were shooting that, I said, I hope that on my In Memoriam clip, it'll just be me screaming, we had dinner with Bono.

[Tonya Mosley]

I know, right? I know. But, you know, first I want to talk to you about this thing. This acting coach told you to bring Victor into the room. Why was that the key to unlock this character, Josh?

[Oscar Isaac]

Well, it was. It's interesting. Cause it was. That's almost accurate. There's elements that are. But the time frame was actually. I was in the midst of shooting already and I was having. I was kind of losing my voice a bit. I just felt like my throat was always so tight and I was having a hard time. And there's this wonderful acting teacher guru, Kim Gillingham. And I met with her and I said, I'm having a really hard time and I don't know. And on the way over, I was actually thinking about Victor and how much fun that was. And then she had the great idea of like, well, let's bring Victor back and let him talk to Josh. And so we did this exercise where, you know, form of hypnosis. And then she's like, now let Victor come and speak. And he came back and he was just so angry to be stuck in this little tiny man. And so that feeling of being strangled was coming a bit from that, and it wasn't about letting go of that. Cause that's an important part of the character. But, yeah, it was a really interesting exercise to kind of bridge that gap. Because sometimes, yeah, you know, it's. You're playing with energy and the nervous system is, you know, it was eight months or something of working on Frankenstein and then a tiny break, and then I was right into doing beef. So to kind of have a physiological mindfulness about how to move into the new character was great.

[Tonya Mosley]

You describe Josh as living in a small life, but he manages this world with a lot of old money and privilege. Can you explain that a bit more?

[Oscar Isaac]

Yes. So, Josh Martin, he works. He is the general manager of Monte Vista Point Country Club. Very elite, lots of athletes, as he says in that clip, titans of every industry. And he is the gm and he worked his way up from the barn cart. He's been there since he was 16 years old. And it's taken a lot of work to get where he is. But he's great with people and he's an incredibly hard worker. And his love language is service as well. But behind that, it's not a selfless service. I think he wants access and there's something in him that feels he'll never be somebody that can become a member, and this is the closest he can get to have access to this kind of life. Hmm.

[Tonya Mosley]

Yeah. At the end of the day, he is the help, for lack of a better term.

[Oscar Isaac]

That's right. That's what his wife says to him. She's like, they're not your friends. You're the help.

[Tonya Mosley]

Thinking about this character, Josh and Beef, he doesn't belong there, really, but his way of giving back is through service.

[Oscar Isaac]

And.

[Tonya Mosley]

And then there is this fight where we just see another side of him. So he's charming to all of the people who are part of the club, but at home, this fight he has with his wife, I mean, we heard a little bit of it in the intro. It gets worse. Lindsay, his wife, picks up a golf club. You tell her, thank God we don't have kids, stuff like that. And so I'm thinking about you pulling from your role as Victor Frankenstein. In his case, specifically, his cruelty kind of comes from a wound he can't look at directly. Where does Josh's cruelty live? I mean, is it someplace different? Is it out of frustration?

[Oscar Isaac]

I think with Josh, it's the. Yeah, it's the rejection that she's saying. It's like the kind of. I see through this identity that you created with Victor Frankenstein, he had no doubts the whole movie. He has very little doubt, which was a very freeing thing to play up until the moment of creation. And then after that, it's kind of all doubt. And that's when he kind of goes in within himself and ossifies. But this Josh is very different. Josh is mostly doubt and mostly reactionary. He's constantly trying to control the situation, which is what a lot of these GMs do as well. Well, and. And he says, like, that's. I let people win all the time. That's what I do. And I remember talking to somebody that has the job, and he said, you know, I go. And he wants me to play tennis with him, and I'm a really good tennis player. And. And we get a pro to come on as well, and. And we play. And I'm like, do you let him win? And he's like, of course I have to let him win. Like, not by a bunch, but I can't destroy his time there. You know, that's. That's not the point. So I just found that very interesting. And, you know, and how little of a personal life one has in that situation, you know, it all gets mushed and melded together.

[Tonya Mosley]

You did research you spoke with someone who really has that job?

[Oscar Isaac]

I did, yeah. Yeah, I did with a couple people. It's a very strange, foreign world to me. Although I did work at a golf club for a few months when I was 16. But it was. It was more like. It was more like weddings that would happen in this small golf club. And I was a bit more of like a waiter, but it was. Yeah, I heard a lot of the same wedding songs over and over again and had to get out of there. But, you know, I was like. You could imagine some. You know, that's about the age that Josh was when he started. And he decided, no, this is my way in. And, you know, I did it in Lake Worth, Florida. This is in Montecito. Very different vibe, but. But I think he really sees, like, I've got something and I've got something special and people like me. And I understand people, and I understand how to make them feel good. And I think, yeah, he sees a way into this life.

[Tonya Mosley]

There's a clip I want to play that kind of shows a little bit of the dirty work in the background. And also his own issues that he's dealing with. So in this clip, he's on the golf course with one of the younger workers in the club, Ashley, who's played by Cailee Spaeny. And she's one of the young employees who witnessed that explosive fight between you and your wife in the show. And in this scene, Josh is nervous that Ashley and her boyfriend will tell people about the fight, so he is trying to bribe her. Let's listen.

[Oscar Isaac]

You know what? We never thanked you guys for bringing back the wallet, so Lynn's really should have given this to him, but.

[Tonya Mosley]

Oh, gosh.

[Oscar Isaac]

There you go. You don't have to do that. No, please, I insist. Ah, no, no, no.

[Tonya Mosley]

I really can't.

[Oscar Isaac]

Come on, please. You guys get tips all the time. It's fine.

[Tonya Mosley]

Not all the time. No,

[Oscar Isaac]

really. Okay. Okay. Okay. Ashley. You know, our members pay a lot of money to come here. 300k initiation fee. Did you know that?

[Tonya Mosley]

Yeah, I know. It's so crazy.

[Oscar Isaac]

Yeah, it's so crazy, right? Do you know why they pay so much to come here?

[Tonya Mosley]

Um,

[Oscar Isaac]

the golf. Yeah, the golf, the courts, the exclusivity, the discretion. People need a place where they can feel safe, where they can pretend everything is okay. It's the land of make believe. Do you follow? I think so, yeah. Do you, though? Because, like, when your fiance comes and visits my wife unannounced, I start to wonder, is everything okay? Do you not want to make believe. Cause if you don't, you know, I can find somebody who does. No, no, no. I want to make believe, sir. Yeah. Yes, you do. Yeah. Good. That's great that you're answering. Okay. You're doing great. Keep up the good work. All right.

[Tonya Mosley]

That's my guest today, Oscar Isaac. In the new season of Beef with actress Cailee Spaeny, Lee Sung Jin has said he made the deliberate choice to make you and your wife millennials and the younger couple Gen Z. You guys talked about that you and Carey Mulligan had you before. The conversation with Carey reflected on the generational differences. You know, I think that big time.

[Oscar Isaac]

Yeah. I mean, it's like that's what's also so fun about it. I mean, he'. You know, the satirical nature that Lee Seung Jin finds in this whole thing. And for us to be able to really explore that, you know, the things that are annoying about Gen Z and the things that are really annoying about millennials, all of these stereotypes, and to be able to kind of lean into some of those things unapologetically, like, kind of embrace the cringe and also have compassion for those things, that's part of embracing it. And the judgments, the way that he plays with the audience's judgments, you know, you form very quick judgments of these people. Cause it's easy to. Cause they're kind of horrible. And then suddenly those expectations get turned on their heads because people start behaving in ways that, you know, I was just relating to you, and now you're doing something so awful, I don't even understand what's happening.

[Tonya Mosley]

Yeah. And then there's also then that understanding that, oh, my gosh, what would I do if I was in that situation? Because your character is stealing, but it's for his mom's medical bills, you know.

[Oscar Isaac]

Right. So that's the thing, the thing that when do we feel justified in doing whatever it takes to get ours? You know, that's the great T Bone Burnett who did the music for Llewyn Davis. He's got a great line in one of his songs that nothing is as dangerous as belief. And, you know, when you believe you've been wronged, it entitles you to whatever you want to make that wrong. Right. And seeing how they, you know, they say, okay, well, up to a point, right up to this line, okay, this isn't this. Is this stealing? It's ish. But then it keeps moving. The bar keeps moving, the more dire the circumstances get. And then when he sees, you know, I think he's somebody that believed in the system to a certain extent. Josh. He's made it to where he's at by working hard and by not, you know, cheating or not doing any of that stuff. And you just gotta be good, keep your head down, work hard, you're gonna get what you want. It's kind of that immigrant idea. He from that immigrant family. And then he gets to a certain point and it's like, no. He realizes everybody is looking out for themselves. Everyone's cheating, especially the clients of this club. And we have a right to get ours as well. And I remember as we were rehearsing, I was like, okay, in spiritual terms, it's like, oh, wait, there isn't a God. So it's. It doesn't matter what we do. This kind of idea, there's no big eye in the sky watching that's gonna. You know, it's keeping a list of did I do it right or did I do it wrong? And so that it's like, oh, no one's watching. Well, then why? Why? Why am I doing the right thing? For whose benefit?

[Tonya Mosley]

Okay, Oscar, I wanna get into Frankenstein for a moment. And you have called. I've heard you a few times call Del Toro's Frankenstein a Mexican melodrama. And I have never heard it described that

[Oscar Isaac]

Guillermo. Because he is, you know, he wanted to approach it that way and invited, certainly me and all of us to approach it that way, which was, you know, for him, it was a very autobiographical telling, at least in the expression of the film. And, yeah, it was just the way that we would approach every day. There was kind of this maximal that was happening, but that was deeply, deeply felt. I mean, it's like listening to a corrido. You know, it's like a mariachi music where it's so passionate because it's just like such a deep, deep expression of both and expression and celebration of both joy and pain at the same time. So I think it was that kind of point of view that was very exciting. We have said that we spoke exclusively in Spanish to one another, which was so nice for me. I hadn't had that experience, certainly not with a director. I mean, it's really just with my mom and my aunts. So it felt like a real familial thing to do. And it's my mother tongue, so there was just something that just went deeper. It just went to some other part of my brain that usually isn't accessed in that way.

[Tonya Mosley]

Can you describe it? Because I've heard that from people before. Especially around language like Spanish. And your first time actually being directed in Spanish, did it unlock or add a dimension?

[Oscar Isaac]

It did. I think it was just like a directness and a simplicity. Even with me, my vocabulary is not great, you know, maybe eighth, ninth grade maybe, and Spanish and so. But I would, you know, I would just. No matter what the question was, I would force myself to just express it in Spanish to him. And there was something about having to find the simplest way of saying what I wanted to say that I don't know. It was a very interesting experiment. And since then, we speak nearly every day and yeah, I've gained this incredible family member. I mean, he's so passionate. I also describe him as the Mexican Buddha. You know, he has such wisdom and such generosity and zero pretension, but also cares deeply about the work that he does as well. So it's just, you know, he's just an incredible human being and a real advocate for other people and advocate for other people's work. He doesn't ever trash anyone's work or speak negatively. I just found him to be an incredible example of how to be a person in this world, how to be a man, how to be an artist.

[Tonya Mosley]

That sounds special. To now have this daily friendship with a director. Is that common for you?

[Oscar Isaac]

I mean, not like this. This has been a. This, like this is a real family member of mine now. Like, there's a real closeness and I have definitely gotten. Become friends with a lot of the people I've worked with. You know, it is such an intimate setting and you go to deep places. And that's one of the things that is really special about this work. You know, we are carny folk. We are. We're circus people. But like, we need to. We hold on to each other because it is such a strange bubble to be in. And it's such an elusive thing that we're searching for that we're trying to find together. And it's often a very humiliating experience. It's a humbling experience.

[Tonya Mosley]

To be an actor.

[Oscar Isaac]

Yeah, to be an actor, I think to be an artist, but particularly to be a performance artist, you know, your own self, your body and your voice. That's the. The materials that you're working with, right? That's the high wire act, I think, is watching somebody battle their own ego and embarrassment. And, you know, and some people do it effortlessly and other people do lots of other wild things to battle that. And to do that with a character with incredible writing or with obviously all of that adds to this kind of astounding feat, at least for me when I watch it, thinking about it of like those great performances when you're like, how is that happening? And knowing how hard it can be to allow oneself to kind of get out of the way to let something happen, you know?

[Tonya Mosley]

Our guest today is award winning actor Oscar Isaac. We'll be right back after this short break. I'm Tonya Mosley and this is FRESH air. This message comes from ixl. The IXL Level up diagnostic gives you clear, just in time insight into student learning with benchmark results and real time updates throughout the year. Even better, LevelUp creates a personalized action plan for every student that guides them to what they should practice on IXL to improve. Learn [e-mail] NPR this message comes from Progressive Insurance.

[Oscar Isaac]

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[Tonya Mosley]

Delivery fees and terms may apply. Hi, this is Molly Sivi Nesper, digital producer at FRESH air.

[Oscar Isaac]

And this is Terry Gross, host of the show.

[Tonya Mosley]

One of the things I do is write the weekly newsletter and I'm a newsletter fan.

[Oscar Isaac]

I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week shows, staff recommendations and Molly picks, timely highlights from the archive.

[Tonya Mosley]

It's a fun read. It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week,

[Oscar Isaac]

an exclusive, so [e-mail] fresh air and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning.

[Tonya Mosley]

This is FRESH air. I'm Tonya Moseley and my guest today is actor Oscar Isaac. Recently, a documentary about the 2017 Public Theater production of Hamlet has been making its way to audiences. It captures a deeply personal period in Isaac's life when his mother was dying, his first child was about to be born and his wife Elvira was filming. Your wife filmed this life changing year of you. And before we get into it a little bit more, I just want to Know how it feels to have this most intimate chapter of your life now available for audiences to watch?

[Oscar Isaac]

Well, when you put it that way, horrible. No, it's, you know, there's been enough time that's gone that it's, I feel happy. I think it's a miracle that it exists is really how I feel about it. When all these things were happening. You know, originally we started the workshop, Sam Gold, who directed it, and I had wanted to do Hamlet for a long time. We worked on the scenes when we were at school together. And all the Rosencrantz and Guildenstern scenes, we kind of did them all as a little one act play. And we always talked in school.

[Tonya Mosley]

At Juilliard.

[Oscar Isaac]

At Juilliard, yeah. And we talked one day about us doing it one day. And so finally it was the moment we were getting it all together. And Elvira, who's such a great documentarian, and we were filming a lot at the time. We were living together and had been together for a while. And that was kind of something that we would do. I would make music and she'd film. And she's like, why don't I film the workshop? And she started to. And then my mother got sick, she was pregnant and she just kept filming. And as she kept filming, I said, she said, I just don't know what else to do. It's like her version of journaling. And I said, okay, but you gotta know that these are maybe just home movies. No one's ever gonna see this. She's like, of course, of course. And so that kind of was the understanding that this is something that she needed to do for herself because this is happening to her life as well. And so that's, she, she kept on and she kept doing it and she kept filming and, and, and it was challenging in many ways. You know, we got married shortly after and, and, and it was difficult to. Because with the union rules to be able to film rehearsals. And, and, and I started receding as the play went on. Cause. Also cause of my voice. And, and just because I, I, I didn't have anything to give when I'd come home and have my wife waiting with the camera. Uh, and so, so she put it away after a while. And then about a year and a half ago, she took the hard drives out and started looking at it and slowly started piecing things together and eventually put together this really beautiful documentary about a group of people coming together to make an impossible thing and how strange it is. You know, this off Broadway play, you know, sure. It's Hamlet, but it's, you know, the peek behind the curtain of kind of what it costs to do this stuff. For me, I say it feels almost like a film about a band making an album. You know, it's very much about a place and a time, but it's. Yeah, it's. It is. It's very intimate and it's. It's revealing, but I think it's revealing in a way that's hopefully useful for people that are interested in dedicating their life to being artists.

[Tonya Mosley]

I want to play, actually, a clip from the doc, if you don't mind. And it's a moment between you and the director, Sam Gold, this director of Hamlet, and you guys are talking about how you are processing the grief of your mother, but also how you process life. Let's listen.

[Oscar Isaac]

We do what we do, or definitely I do. What I do is. Because that's the only way that I try to find me is I find meaning is, like, through. Yeah, the play is the thing. I mean, I literally was, like, sobbing. And then the moment that I was able to think about the play a little bit, it got me out of that. It's like, literally, the play is. The only salvation that I could find is to think about the play is that she went to everything, this character that it talks about, like, she. All those things, like the lucidity, like the funniness, then the screaming about dreams and the distrust of the people that she loved most, and then trying to reconcile to some place of peace. By the end, you know, it was like. It was all of it. Everything. Yeah. So you're actually confronting that. Yeah.

[Tonya Mosley]

That was my guest, Oscar Isaac, along with director Sam Gold in the new documentary King Hamlet. Oscar, what an extraordinary connection between the play Hamlet and your mother's experience, her last days.

[Oscar Isaac]

You know, it's funny. I listen to that and I hear two things. One that I find positive, which is certainly, that's what work and creative work and art and these things that they do, they can help us. They give architecture to some things that feel so formless and scary and hard to understand and comprehend. You know, to be able to see, you know, within a week of my mother becoming quite lucid and. And then traveling through all these different versions of different weather patterns of her selves, the many selves that she lived through her life, and then to see a connection with the journey of the character of Hamlet through that entire play, that was a really revealing and amazing thing. Just to think of what an incredible piece of work Hamlet is. Right. But the other thing I hear that I that I have compassion for that guy speaking that was me is the feeling that I needed to be saved from feeling sad that my mom passed. You know, like, I kind of want to say to him, you don't, you don't need to get saved from that. It's okay. You can feel really sad that your mom's dead. You don't have to be rescued from that. This idea that, you know, I need to get out of my discomfort and the only way I can get out of this horrible situation, I feel bad. So I need something to make me not feel bad. And that's that's my work. And that maybe that and I know looking back, that's the first place I went, parents getting divorced. I'm going to learn how to I'm going to learn all the words to this play and suddenly play I feel alone at school. I do a play. Oh, now I got all these friends and people are looking at me. And it was always a solution. It was always a solution which has a great positive effect. That's a good solution. There's lots of bad solutions to feeling lonely and bad, but that's a positive one. But when I hear that, I can hear maybe after a while, a bit of perhaps a maladaption that is not necessary anymore.

[Tonya Mosley]

Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is actor Oscar Isaac. We'll be right back. This is FRESH air. This message comes from ixl. IXL provides personalized learning and powerful insights that help teachers boost achievement and understand student progress in real time. Learn [e-mail] NPR this message comes from NPR sponsor Carvana.

[Oscar Isaac]

Carvana believes selling your car should be refreshingly simple. Enter your license plate or vin, get a real offer down to the penny and schedule a pickup on your time. No surprises. Sell your car [e-mail] pickup fees may apply. You know, every day on Up First, NPR's Golden Globe nominated morning news podcast. We bring you three essential stories. At the heart of each story are questions what really happened? What really mattered? What happens next? At npr, we stand for your right to be curious and to follow the facts. Follow up first wherever you get your podcasts and start your day knowing what matters and why?

[Tonya Mosley]

When did you realize fully that acting for you was more than a craft that you enjoyed and that you were good at, but also the way that you process life?

[Oscar Isaac]

Pretty, pretty early on. Yeah, pretty early on. I think there was a sense of I don't know how to be good son Student, friend, boyfriend, partner, any of those things. Citizen. But I know that if I can figure out this part, if I can solve this puzzle, then everything will make sense. And that was pretty early on where I would kind of accept, like, I'm a little bit of a vulture of my own life. There's. I'm in an experience, but there's always a little other part that's watching and, you know, eating up the little bits and pieces of real life that's happening and gonna use that for something later. Mm.

[Tonya Mosley]

Sorry. I'm just thinking about what you're saying. Cause I'm feeling like you're talking about me.

[Oscar Isaac]

Really? Do you relate to that?

[Tonya Mosley]

Yeah, I relate to it. I feel like I'm always living in. Because, you know, I'm an observer, so I'm an observer of life. So I'm always observing, processing it, thinking about how it's also gonna turn around and help me in my work. But, I mean, that's. But it's also authentically me. So I. So I've kind of come to this place where I'm accepting it, but I used to feel a lot of guilt towards it.

[Oscar Isaac]

Yes. I mean, I would feel a lot of guilt towards it. And then I did have to get to a place where I was like. Well, I think I was like that first. And then this thing is like, well, you're like, this here's something you can do with that thing that makes you feel guilty or weird. Right. But. But I think it also speaks to a sense of feeling on the outside all the time. Just feeling a little bit on the outside, on the edge of existence. And that allows me to never fully be there, because I'm not really a participant. I kind of pretend I'm participating, but I'm always a little bit on the outside. And like I said, that was useful for a really long time. I'm less interested in that kind of. That way of being now, just if anything, out of curiosity for something else, and I'm curious to see if how badly the work's gonna suffer from it.

[Tonya Mosley]

Mm. So you're not interested in that anymore, but, like, have you found a way to take yourself out of that way of being? I'm asking for a friend.

[Oscar Isaac]

Um. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, without. Yeah. Getting so into all the, you know, the therapy of all that stuff. But certainly, you know, therapy helps a lot. Meditation has helped a lot. Just the quiet, you know, that's what I say, I think, oftentimes to their, you know, disappointment, when young actors can Come up to me, they're like, what's one piece of advice? I'm like, figure out how to train your mind to be your friend. Whatever that takes. I don't know if it's meditation or that, but finding a good relationship with your mind, where it's a friendly relationship and it's not your enemy or your coach all the time or your angry coach. I think for me, that's taken a long time to really be aware of. When I can say to whatever pattern's coming up, be like, thank you, but don't need that right now. Yeah, that's been a helpful way and to be honest, has helped with the work as well. To just be. To have more space in my mind and not so much chatter allows me to be able to hear things better and to be more present with my scene partner and to allow for other things to come up. Whether it's better in the end, as far as the. But in the moment, it's a lot more. It's a much more enjoyable way of working.

[Tonya Mosley]

Okay, before we wrap, I have to ask you about your music. People who follow your career know that you were a musician in your young life, and you're known for this character that you played, a folk musician from inside Llewyn Davis. But you revealed recently on Late Night with Jimmy Fallon that you and your sons have a band. What's it called again?

[Oscar Isaac]

Fleece.

[Tonya Mosley]

Okay, that's really a punk rock name.

[Oscar Isaac]

Fleece Featuring Cool dude.

[Tonya Mosley]

Wait, who's the cool dude?

[Oscar Isaac]

That's my oldest son, Eugene. He kind of like. He's like. He's got his own thing, so he just. You know, we're one of the projects that he works with. But they haven't as much lately. It's like, actually they've got the. You know, they're doing their drumming lesson right now. They're really into playing drums. I mean, they're so musical. But you know what? The band's. I gotta be honest, it's a little on hiatus for the last couple months. It's like suddenly they're just not as into jamming with dad. Maybe I got too much. I think I got too into it.

[Tonya Mosley]

You think you. Yeah. Cause you know, that happens when parents get too serious about it.

[Oscar Isaac]

Yeah, I just killed the vibe.

[Tonya Mosley]

I actually wanna play a clip, Two clips, actually, from that late night performance. You talking about it? The first clip is your son singing, followed by a clip of you singing the song that you guys put together. Let's listen.

[Oscar Isaac]

Come and play Nintendo when you open the door I just need the ring.

[Tonya Mosley]

You are nice.

[Oscar Isaac]

I love that. That's good. Pretty good, right? I mean, yeah. That's it.

[Tonya Mosley]

And then here's you picking up the guitar.

[Oscar Isaac]

The door. The dinos need the rain. You just need a damn talk.

[Tonya Mosley]

I'm mad.

[Oscar Isaac]

You think it is a place? You get locked on the world? You think it is a rain? I'm gonna drum on the rain on top? I'm gonna drum till the rain it drops? I'm gonna drop mama man it up I'm a drum. Cause I don't care about. Oh, my God. Good lord, I can feel it down in my vibe. Living as free as top. You can't paint cause you're dead, you little dog. Good night, dude. This the end of the song. Goodbye. Call it the best song you ever seen.

[Tonya Mosley]

Okay, now I know this is where you lost it. I think this is why Fleece broke up. Because you were on the Tonight Show.

[Oscar Isaac]

Yeah. Yeah. They're like, you know, man, you killed it. You totally. And not in a good way. We're an underground punk band. You can't go on the Tonight show and play the song.

[Tonya Mosley]

Right.

[Oscar Isaac]

I know.

[Tonya Mosley]

You know, I mean, I loved seeing that, though. That had to be really great to, like, have this connection with your sons from the place that you started to find your artistic voice.

[Oscar Isaac]

Yeah, no, it is. It is. And like, you know, those are all his own lyrics. And to find a reason to do that and to play it and playing it for them, I mean, they were laughing. They thought it was. It was so fun. It's a really fun thing to share with them. It's something my dad shared with me. He played music all the time and would record music and had guitars and things around the house. And that was a real connection for he and I as well. We really bonded over that. And so I was like, I want to have instruments readily available at all times just in case inspiration strikes and they want to go down and play. And that's been a really lovely thing.

[Tonya Mosley]

Are you playing for yourself as well?

[Oscar Isaac]

Sometimes. At times, yeah. I still do a bit for myself. It's interesting because when I get a little extra low, I'm like, you know what? I haven't played in a while. And I play, and that feels really good.

[Tonya Mosley]

Oscar Isaac, it's been such a pleasure to talk with you, and thank you so much.

[Oscar Isaac]

Thank you so much. Real pleasure.

[Tonya Mosley]

Oscar Isaac stars in season two of the Netflix series Thief. Coming up, TV critic David Biancooley reviews the new Apple TV series Margot's Got Money Troubles. This is FRESH air. This message comes from ixl. With ixl, you get personalized online learning and teaching solutions that help improve achievement, empower teachers and track progress. This one platform for K to 12 helps teachers accomplish what normally would require dozens of other tools. Educators can see how their school is performing in real time to make better instructional decisions. IXL is used in 96 of the top 100 school districts. Learn more at ixl.com NPR Margo's Got Money Troubles, based on the 2024 novel by Rufi Thorpe, is now an eight part TV series on Apple TV. It stars Elle Fanning, Michelle Pfeiffer and Nick Offerman. Our TV critic David B. And Cooley has this review.

[David Biancooli]

Margot's Got Money Troubles is created for television by David E. Kelley, who wrote or co wrote several of the eight episodes. Kelly's impressive TV career goes all the way back to LA Law, Ally McBeal, picket fences and Boston Legal. But more recently he's made a specialty of adapting other writers novels for tv. Those include Margot's Got Money Troubles by Rufi Thorpe, but also Kelly's adaptations of the novels Big Little Lies and Nine Perfect Strangers, both of which starred Nicole Kidman. She's in Margot too, playing a lawyer with a colorful background. But she's only one of many talented jewels in this show's crown. Others include Kelly's wife, Michelle Pfeiffer, currently starring in the Madison, Nick Offerman from Parks and Recreation, Devs and the Last of Us, and veteran stars Greg Kinnear and Marcia Gay Hardin. Appearing with all of them in the title role is Elle Fanning, who was so great as a comic. Catherine the Great in the TV series called the Great Here she plays Margot Millett, a promising first year student at a California community college. Her eventually odious literature professor praises her writing, has an affair with her, gets her pregnant, then ghosts her. All within the show's opening episode, Margot decides she wants to have the baby anyway, which upsets her mother, Cheyenne, a flamboyant woman played by Michelle Pfeiffer.

[Tonya Mosley]

You know me well enough when I get scared. God, when I got pregnant with you, I was terrified. You kept me a one night stand from a guy who picked you up at Hooters. I mean, what would possess you? I thought he was the one, your dad. You didn't even know his name. I guess I'm gonna have to tell dad. By the way, if I decide to keep it, promise that I keep him in the loop on the big stuff. Yeah. When was the last time you talked to him. Not in a while. Closer to never than recently.

[David Biancooli]

The dad, played by Nick Offerman, eventually shows up on Margot's doorstep. He's a former pro wrestler named Jinx, and his exploits inside the ring might sound like comic relief or a broad caricature, but like Margot's mother and Margot herself, these characters have depth and darkness and can be serious as well as amusing. When Jinx returns to reunite with Margot after hearing of her pregnancy, he confesses that he's come straight from rehab after years of drug abuse.

[Oscar Isaac]

How bad did it get? You know, I've had multiple surgeries on my spine over the years. Not taking the pain pills wasn't an option. Taking them as prescribed wasn't an option. Hoarding them, abusing them, taking a lot at once, and then it was heroin. But I am determined. I'm desperate not to go back to that place.

[Tonya Mosley]

You know I love you. Do you know that dad?

[David Biancooli]

The money troubles in the title mount up for Margot after her baby is born, and her unusual solution for paying the bills is to open an OnlyFans account. Some of the offerings and interactions on that site can be quite sexual and quite lucrative. Margot keeps it PG rated, first by writing playful prose, then by appearing in still photos, and finally by producing and starring in saucy sci fi themed videos. Her goal is to keep her source of income secret and completely apart from her private life. But that goal fails, and because Margot's Got Money Troubles is as realistic as it is fanciful, the ramifications of her actions are real and sometimes painful. She experiences shaming, regret, even legal troubles, which I mention only because in a single courtroom scene playing an eccentric judge, actor Paul McCrane almost steals the show from from all these other powerful players. As a judge in a David Kelly drama, he's as much fun as Ray Walston was in Picket Fences. Even the characters you expect to be peripheral or one dimensional end up surprising you in this miniseries, and the dynamics of friends and family are equally complicated. Margot and Cheyenne yell at each other a lot, but they also demonstrate a delightful mother daughter bond during a road trip to Vegas in a convertible. They sing along with abandon as the car stereo blares a vintage song, a song that somewhat poignantly describes them both.

[Tonya Mosley]

Here comes our part and if we're victims of the night

[Oscar Isaac]

I won't be blinded by the Just call me angel of the morning angel just touch your cheek before you leave me.

[David Biancooli]

Margot's Got Money Troubles includes instances of casual nudity, but they never seem gratuitous. Fanning throws herself into this role in a way that's both vulnerable and empowering, and it's an enthralling performance to witness. Nicole Kidman doesn't show up until halfway through, but wow, is she worth the wait. And when she and Pfeiffer finally get to share the screen, margot's Got Money Troubles is pure gold. There are so many strong performances here and so many rich characters that it's riveting from start to finish. And in between those two points is one wild and brazen emotional rise.

[Tonya Mosley]

TV critic David Biancooli reviewed the new Apple TV series Margo's Got Money Troubles. On the next Fresh Air. New Yorker staff writer Zach Helfan on the career of former pro Wrestling executive Linda McMahon as President Trump's Secretary of Education. She's embraced the mission to defend dismantle her department with gusto, sending half her employees layoff notices within a week of her confirmation. Hellfan describes her style as that of a friendly grandmother wielding a hatchet. I hope you can join us to keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram prfresh. Air Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Meyers, Anne Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Bea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez Whistler. Our digital media producer is Molly CV Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show with Terry Gross. I'm Tanya Mosley. This message comes from IXL. With ixl, you get personalized online learning and teaching solutions that help improve achievement, empower teachers and track progress. This one platform for K12 helps teachers accomplish what normally would require dozens of other tools. Educators can see how their school is performing in real time to make better instructional decisions. IXL is used in 96 of the top 100 school districts. Learn more at ixl.com npr.