Actor Simu Liu On Diving In The Dark

Summary

Fresh Air Podcast Summary

Title: Actor Simu Liu On Diving In The Dark
Host: NPR's Anne Marie Boldonado
Release Date: March 6, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of NPR's Fresh Air, host Anne Marie Boldonado engages in a thoughtful and in-depth conversation with actor Simu Liu. Known for his groundbreaking role as Shang Chi in Marvel's Shang Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings, Liu also stars alongside Woody Harrelson in the intense action thriller Last Breath. Additionally, he gained widespread recognition for his role in the beloved sitcom Kim's Convenience and his appearance in the film Barbie. Liu shares insights into his diverse career, personal life, and the challenges he has navigated as an Asian Canadian in Hollywood.

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Career Highlights and Roles

Simu Liu's Breakthrough and Diverse Roles

Simu Liu discusses his journey from his first major break in the CBC Netflix comedy Kim's Convenience to his breakout role as Shang Chi, Marvel's first Asian superhero. He emphasizes the physical demands of his roles, such as the gripping fight sequences in Shang Chi and the dance performances in Barbie. Liu's latest project, Last Breath, portrays the harrowing experiences of deep-sea divers, a role that pushed him into new physical and emotional territories.

Notable Quote:
“At a time where there's increasingly easy ways to use AI and VFX to create comfortable and less authentic performances, it was refreshing for us to immerse ourselves fully into such challenging roles.” [07:04]

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Insights into Last Breath

Liu dives deep into his role in Last Breath, explaining the intricacies of portraying a saturation diver—a highly dangerous and physically demanding profession. He details the unique living conditions of divers, who reside in pressurized tubes aboard ships for extended periods, enduring extreme isolation and harsh environments.

Notable Quote:
“Saturation diving is one of the most dangerous jobs out there. It’s a very blue-collar job, extremely dark with minimal visibility, requiring divers to work in pressurized environments similar to astronauts in space.” [02:43]

He shares his preparation process, which included extensive scuba training and adapting to the specialized equipment used by divers. The intensity of filming in such environments mirrored the real-life challenges faced by saturation divers, adding authenticity to his performance.

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Experiences in Barbie and Live Performances

Liu reflects on his participation in Barbie, particularly his experience performing the song "I'm Just Ken" at the Oscars. He recounts the rigorous rehearsals and last-minute changes to the choreography, highlighting the pressure of performing live on such a high-profile stage.

Notable Quote:
“I did a tape, met up with Greta, and discussed my dance background. Greta’s obsession with dance and spectacle was a perfect match for what she envisioned for the Kens in the movie.” [13:08]

His dedication to the performance paid off, culminating in what he praises as one of the greatest Oscar performances, crediting Ryan Gosling for his outstanding delivery.

Sample Scene:
The conversation includes a playful reenactment of a Barbie scene where Liu’s character challenges another Ken, showcasing his comedic timing and improvisational skills.
“I'll beat you off with you any day, Ken.” [12:32]

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Personal Life and Memoir

Simu Liu opens up about his memoir, We Were An Immigrant Superhero: An Origin Story, detailing his family's immigration to Canada and the cultural challenges he faced growing up. He discusses the strained relationship with his parents, who had high expectations for him to succeed in traditional fields like engineering and medicine, contrasting with his own passions for sports and performing arts.

Notable Quote:
“When you have parents who weren’t necessarily present in your formative years, there’s bound to be a little bit of distance. Growing up, I was essentially adopted by my biological parents, which created a unique dynamic.” [21:56]

Liu recounts his early life in Harbin, China, living with his grandparents before moving to Canada at age five. He describes the hardships of adjusting to a new country, learning English, and navigating his parents' rigid expectations, which ultimately led to conflicts during his teenage years.

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Breaking into Acting

Transitioning from a short-lived accounting career, Liu shares his unconventional path into acting. After being fired from his accounting job for skipping work to be an extra on a Guillermo del Toro film, Liu realized his true passion lay in performing. He describes the challenges of entering a small market like Toronto's acting scene, his initial roles, and the dedication required to hone his craft through acting classes and auditions.

Notable Quote:
“I was completely utterly miserable as an accountant. Skipping work to be an extra was the end of that career, but it was the beginning of discovering my true passion for acting.” [27:38]

His persistence paid off with his casting in Kim's Convenience, which not only provided him with steady work but also helped bridge the gap between him and his parents as they began to understand and support his career choice.

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Stock Photo Modeling Experience

Liu reflects humorously on his stint as a stock photo model, a detour in his early career that he describes as exploitative but necessary to sustain his acting ambitions. He explains how his stock photos have endured beyond his tenure as an accountant, appearing in various corporate settings and textbooks.

Notable Quote:
“When you’re a stock photo model, you basically sign away your rights to the images in perpetuity. I probably made the company hundreds of thousands of dollars while I saw none of the returns.” [32:19]

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Reflections on Shang Chi

Discussing Shang Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings, Liu highlights the significance of portraying Marvel's first Asian superhero. He talks about the representation milestone and how the film resonates with his personal experiences of cultural identity and parental expectations. Liu praises director Destin Daniel Cretton for creating a universally relatable story that transcends cultural boundaries while maintaining authenticity.

Notable Quote:
“It was incredible that Destin was able to tell a story about a flawed but ultimately human character who is running away from who he is and his parents, eventually choosing to embrace his identity on his own terms.” [38:12]

He also recounts how Liu initially engaged with Marvel by advocating for Asian representation on social media, which eventually led to his casting as Shang Chi.

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Impact of Kim's Convenience on Personal Life

Liu shares how Kim's Convenience mirrored his own familial struggles, providing a cathartic experience that facilitated reconciliation with his parents. By portraying the character Jung and his strained relationship with his father, Liu found a medium to understand and heal his own family dynamics.

Notable Quote:
“Playing Jiang and acting out his dynamic with his amma and Appa helped me make a lot of sense of what my parents are going through and brought us closer together.” [41:14]

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Conclusion

Simu Liu's journey from a struggling accountant to a celebrated actor underscores themes of resilience, cultural identity, and the pursuit of passion against societal expectations. His roles in Kim's Convenience, Shang Chi, Barbie, and Last Breath showcase his versatility and commitment to authentic storytelling. Through his memoir and candid discussions, Liu not only entertains but also inspires, offering a nuanced perspective on the immigrant experience and the universal quest for self-acceptance.

Final Quote:
“Being able to immerse ourselves fully into such challenging roles was refreshing and allowed us to connect deeply with our characters and stories.” [07:04]

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Notable Quotes Compilation

• “Saturation diving is one of the most dangerous jobs out there. It’s a very blue-collar job, extremely dark with minimal visibility, requiring divers to work in pressurized environments similar to astronauts in space.” [02:43]

• “I was completely utterly miserable as an accountant. Skipping work to be an extra was the end of that career, but it was the beginning of discovering my true passion for acting.” [27:38]

• “Playing Jiang and acting out his dynamic with his amma and Appa helped me make a lot of sense of what my parents are going through and brought us closer together.” [41:14]

• “When you’re a stock photo model, you basically sign away your rights to the images in perpetuity. I probably made the company hundreds of thousands of dollars while I saw none of the returns.” [32:19]

• “Being able to immerse ourselves fully into such challenging roles was refreshing and allowed us to connect deeply with our characters and stories.” [07:04]

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Final Thoughts

Simu Liu's story is a testament to the power of following one's passion and the impact of representation in media. His experiences highlight the importance of authentic storytelling and the profound effects it can have both personally and culturally. Listeners are sure to find his insights both compelling and inspiring, offering a deeper understanding of the man behind some of today’s most influential characters.

Transcript

[Simu Liu]

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[Terry Gross]

This is FRESH air. I'm Terry Gross. Our guest today is actor Simu Liu. He's best known for his breakout role as Shang Chi, Marvel's first Asian superhero, in the film Shang Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings. Now he stars with Woody Harrelson in the new film Last Breath. He spoke with fresh airs. Anne Marie Boldonado.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

Actor Simu Liu has taken on some roles that are pretty physically challenging. He does killer fight sequences in the film Shang Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings. And who can forget him dancing as one of the Kens in the movie Barbie? His latest film may be even more extreme. The action thriller Last Breath is based on the true story of deep sea divers in peril. At the Bott of the North Sea in 2012, three divers were embarking on a routine dive when rough weather and computer errors caused one diver's umbilical cable to get stuck, leaving him trapped.

[Simu Liu]

What happens now? Your umbilical, it's gonna snap. You'll get pulled off the structure. Now I will come back for, but you have to do something for me, okay? You have to get yourself back to the top of the manifold. I can't rescue you if I can't find you. Understand?

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

That's Simu Liu with Finn Cole as the diver who's stuck with only minutes of reserve oxygen left. Simu Liu's character with another diver, played by Woody Harrelson, desperately try to bring the trapped diver back back to safety. Simu Liu's first big break was in the CBC Netflix comedy Kim's Convenience, which ran for five seasons. He says being fired from his accounting job is what helped him take the leap into acting. His bestselling memoir, We Were An Immigrant Superhero Origin Story, explores his family's immigration to Canada, his struggles growing up with immigrant parents, the challenges of breaking into the industry and of being an Asian Canadian in Hollywood. Simu Liu, welcome to FRESH air.

[Simu Liu]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

This new movie, Last Breath, is about saturation divers. Can you explain what saturation divers do?

[Simu Liu]

It's a very blue collar job. It's very dangerous. It's workers that work on the bottom of the sea, in the bottom of the ocean performing kind of routine maintenance and repair on pipelines, on underwater structures. It's typically extremely dark. There's not a lot of visibility. And the living conditions of these saturation divers is just so. It's unlike anything, I think, that is really out there in the world, except for maybe like an astronaut living in space. So in order for those divers to be able to operate that far beneath sea level, you know, because of the differential and atmospheric pressure, they actually have to live in a pressurized kind of tube onboard a ship for 28 days. And during that time, typically it's three divers that go into. Sat together in one chamber, but they're living kind of on top of each other. The chamber is very, very small. You know, you're typically going to the bathroom like less than three feet away from where you're sleeping. And for a month, for. For a month straight. Yeah. With the same, you know, two other guys. And when it. When it's time to go to work, you all go into this, like, little sphere, this bell structure, but it's lowered down to depth, at which point the divers then come out, they're hooked up to the bell, and then, you know, to the surface of the ship through an umbilical that feeds them all of their gas and their heat and their power. And then they'll conduct these operations on the bottom of the sea for eight hour shifts at a time. So it's like a really. There's nothing glamorous about this job. And yet you. There were many sat divers that were available to us over the course of shooting this movie, and some of them were the actual characters that we played in the movie. But the one thing that we found in common with all of them is just how much they loved it, which was very confusing to us.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

Well, right. Saturation diving, it's one of the most dangerous jobs out there. These divers go down to the bottom of the ocean, they repair oil rigs and gas pipes, and it's to provide the infrastructure of the way people live their lives. And your character, David Uwath, is based on a real diver, just like you said. It's based on a real diver who made this rescue. You talk to him. It occurs to me it might be the first time you're playing a real living person. What was that like? What did you learn from him?

[Simu Liu]

To have someone have done something as extraordinary as Dave did, And he doesn't care for any of the accolades, he doesn't care for any of the recognition when, you know, he's like the closest thing to a real superhero that there is. He threw himself into the bottom of the sea to resc. His co worker who had been trapped there. So he, you know, wound up finding an unconscious Chris Lemons on the bottom of the North Sea, clipped Chris onto him and then climbed his umbilical back up to the bell, which is about, you know, it's, it's a, it was like more than 50 foot climb, you know, in the swell, in the, you know, in the sea, which was, which was very turbulent at the time and successfully recovered him and then, you know, revived him. Like that's, that's incredible. That's a miracle.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

Yeah, he was essentially doing like that what people do in gym class, like climbing the rope and you know, he has his co worker whose life he's trying to save and it's just like the most high stakes rope climb you could ever imagine.

[Simu Liu]

Yeah, that's right. And SAT equipment, you know, it's not light, you know, you've got like a 50 pound helmet, right, that you have to, that you're wearing. And then you've got, you know, your bailout oxygen, which is at least another, you know, 30 pounds. And then you've got weights in your shoes because, you know, of course they're not fins. You're not like recreationally diving. You have to have, you know, be boots on the ground and to be able to conduct your work. So yeah, just, it's a lot of weight.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

What was this shoot like? Were you shooting in extreme conditions? Because you play one of these divers who's at the bottom of the North Sea as you describe, you know, you're in this little tin can, kind of isolated, even when there isn't a crisis, it's this isolated environment. Did you shoot that way?

[Simu Liu]

It was pretty evident, you know, reading the script the first time that it wasn't going to be a cakewalk. You know, we knew that we were going to have to do a significant portion of this film underwater and, or in these really, really tight spaces. It was like three, four weeks of kind of diving every day, pretty much starting from square one, learning kind of not only the basics of scuba and then getting quite proficient at that, but then also at unlearning a lot of the recreational scuba diving kind of mantras and philosophies and then relearning them in a SAT capacity because again, the equipment is very different, what you're trying to do is very different. And, and then, you know, we had an incredible dive team around us that supported us and really kind of made us feel safe every day. But that being said, we had a tank in Malta that was about 40ft deep and for, you know, every night, you know, we'd go down into the water and we'd communicate ahead of time exactly the shots that we wanted to get. And in a way, you know, obviously challenging, but in a way, it was really. It was really nice to be able to immerse ourselves to that degree, especially in a world where I feel like in this industry, there's. It's become increasingly easy to lie to the audience. You know, you've got green screen, you've got vfx. You've now got AI, you know, making it very easy for actors to not really have to do anything or to exist in very comfortable situations. And I think in that environment, it was really nice for us to actually go out and do it.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

I want to ask about the movie Barbie, and I was kind of shocked when I realized that it's only been a year since you performed the song I'm just Ken with Ryan Gosling and the other Kens at the Oscar ceremony. That was just a year ago, and I just want to remind people to go back and watch it if they want to experience joy. But what was it like performing the song for the Oscar audience? You guys were so committed, too.

[Simu Liu]

Oh, man. Yeah. I mean, look, it's a number and a character that begs, you know, 100% commitment and not a drop less. It was. I mean, obviously, it'll go with me for the rest of my life as one of my core memories, and I'll never forget that feeling. It was, I will say, a bit of a cluster in the lead up to the performance, you know, for myself and, you know, Shudhi Gatwa and Kingsley, Ben Adir and Scott Evans, who are kind of the.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

You're the main Kens.

[Simu Liu]

Yeah, yeah. I would be behind. I would say the main Kens. Behind. Yes, the. The main backup Kens. We were kind of brought on relatively late in the. In the process, and. And our first rehearsal was the Thursday before. The Oscars are on Sunday. So our first rehearsal was the Thursday before. And then we show up to the Dolby center on Friday to do kind of like a blocking rehearsal. And we realized that the choreography has completely changed. And we're like, okay, all right. This is completely different. We've relearned the entire. But as long as nothing changes, we should be okay. So then, of course, we show up Saturday for the dress rehearsal, and the choreography's completely changed again. That was supposed to be the last time that we did it before the show. And we do it, and I don't know if I'm blowing up any of my coworkers or anything, but, you know, there's 75 Kens on stage, and they're all moving around. And I remember, like, the rehearsal was like, it didn't go poorly so much as it just didn't go. So we kind of get back into the dressing room and everyone's kind of feeling like, okay, what's gonna happen here? And then one of the stagehands kind of comes in and is like, yeah, so you're gonna need to come in again early morning on the Sunday, the day of. The day of the Oscars, and do, like, one last rehearsal because we're not ready. So we all met at the hotel connected to the Dolby center in the, like, early morning, Sunday. And we ran through it one last time. And it was in that last run through that we. And then, you know, I had something like seven minutes to get ready for the red carpet, but it didn't even matter at that point. I was just like, the entire time thinking about the choreography and thinking about just like, not messing up on. Not only on live television, but also, like, in front of Chris Nolan and Downey and Cillian Murphy and, you know, Greta and Margot, you know, just like the amount of. You think about the audience and who was sitting there and the amount of pressure that that was. But no, thankfully, it went really well. And Ryan, I mean, just such a credit to him, delivered one of the all time greatest performances I think, that the Oscars has ever seen and ever will see.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

I want to play a scene from Barbie. It's near the beginning of the movie. The main Ken, played by Ryan Gosling, has just tried to, quote, unquote, beach. He was trying to run towards the water and he ends up hitting the plastic wave and he gets knocked down. And you play his number one op, Ken, like his nemesis Ken, and you're laughing at him. And the other Ken in this scene is Kingsley, Ben Adir, and Margot Robbie as Barbie is also here too. Let's hear it.

[Simu Liu]

Oh, looks like this beach was a little too much beach for you, Ken. If I wasn't severely injured, I would beat you off right now, Ken. I'll beat you off with you any day, Ken. Hold my ice cream, Ken. All right, Ken, you're on. Anyone who wants to beach him off has to beach me off first. I will beach both of you off at the same time. How are you gonna beach both of us? And he can beach yourself.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

Nobody's gonna beach anyone off.

[Simu Liu]

Okay, let's go.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

Betsy Mu lu in the 2023 film Barbie, how did you come to be part of this film?

[Simu Liu]

I did a tape, I met up with Greta, and I kind of talked a little bit about my dance. Cause Greta has kind of an obsession with dance and, you know, musical theater and really just like spectacle and production, especially as it pertains to men doing it. I think it was something that she really wanted in the movie was, you know, Kens that kind of were always felt like they were performing to an audience that weren't there. And, you know, I told her about some of my dance background. I was like, on my university hip hop competitive dance team or something. And she. She seemed to really love that. And, you know, in our first few rehearsals, I think Greta came up to me and was like, I think you are gonna be like Ryan's main rival, Ken. And I was like, that's insane. And she's like, yeah, you're gonna ride into battle against him on a beach of pink sand, and you're gonna fight using lacrosse sticks and pool floaties and things. And I was like, what is this movie? Greta Gerwig.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

Yeah, you do show off your dance moves. And as you mentioned, you did a lot of dance when you were at university. Can you talk about what your dance troupe was like?

[Simu Liu]

Yeah, so I, you know, freshman year of college, a lot of people are worrying about their studies or their partying or whatever. And for me, I was like, meeting up three times a week with the Hip Hop Western dance team and, you know, doing Choreo. And that was like. That was my number one one passion at the time. I. I wanted to be a professional dancer. And yeah, we. We had a, you know, we had competitions that we would prep for, like.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

Competing against other universities.

[Simu Liu]

Competing against other universities. And. And it was, you know, I have to, you know, I gotta paint a picture, right? It was the. It was the heyday of, like, dance competitions. This was like 2008, 2009. So, you know, so youo Think youk Can Dance. America's Best Dance Crew, hosted by Mario Lopez. Like, you know, the Jabberwockies. The Jabberwockies. Thank you for understanding that reference. We're everywhere. And so we were, you know, basically just watching the videos every single day, stealing all the moves, trying to add our own spin to it, and popping and locking and, you know, using everything that we had in our tool set, which wasn't much, but we just loved it so much. And I think it was where I kind of found my love of performing. Especially, you know, I think growing up, you know, I went to a very academically inclined high school. And really, you Know, had to, had to navigate my parents expectations for most of my childhood and they were definitely pushing me to be, you know, they were both electrical engineers, definitely wanted me to follow in their footsteps and if not that then definitely, you know, medicine stem didn't want any of that for myself. You know, I wanted to kind of, I guess be, be out there and be seen and dance to the music and to the beat.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

You were born in Harbin, China and you were raised there by your grandparents while your parents were trying to start a life in Canada. What do you remember about that time, those early years?

[Simu Liu]

You know, I remember, I remember flashes and feelings but I do remember we had this tiny little ramshackle apartment in Harbin. You know, there wasn't running water for many parts of the day. The water wasn't drinkable so we had to boil everything that we drank and there was no hot water. So anytime anyone had to take a bath it was always kind of a bit of a thing. Although for me I had no reference point. I just thought that that was how people lived. But I also, more than all of that, I remember this overwhelming sense of safet and belonging, you know, with my, with my grandparents, my Yeye and my Nai Nai. I was very, very close with them. You know, they were my parents for all intents and purposes and they had always tried to tell me that I had a mom and a dad that were, you know, abroad and that one day I would join them. But I don't think these words necessarily mean anything to like a three or a four year old. It was very difficult for me to grasp that. And when my dad did show up one day, I was about four and a half to, you know, bring me back to Canada with him. It was very uncomfortable for me and a lot for me to accept because you know, I had my family and I loved my grandparents more than anything and my dad at that point was a stranger. I very, very vividly remember watching him step through the door for the first time. And you know, when you're a kid and all these adults are looking at you like you're supposed to be reacting a certain way. I very clearly remember my grandparents looking at me and saying this is your dad, like go to him. And I just remember being like, I don't want to.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

Yes, you're picked up by your dad when you're almost five and you moved to live with your parents in Canada. What do you remember about those early years living with your parents who didn't really know and trying to acclimate yourself to this new country.

[Simu Liu]

It is a couple of funny things. I remember not understanding English. Like, I remember being brought to daycare my very first day and just crying my eyes out the entire time because nobody was speaking. Like I couldn't understand anybody. And I remember that's what it was for the longest time. And I know I was learning English through flashcards and my parents were trying to teach me. And then one day it just kind of clicked. And I'm sure that's not how it actually happened. Right. Like, we remember things very differently as children. But it honestly felt to me like one day I woke up and like my brain had switched between thinking in Mandarin and thinking in English. And I remember my parents were very confused because I think one day I just stopped speaking Chinese to them. But once I made the switch, I really kind of embraced it. And I remember those early years just that we were very, very poor. My parents were living off of scholarship money until they graduated. My my parents were doing their postgraduate studies. And once they were able to get jobs, our living conditions slowly started to improve. But for the longest time, this was a very unglamorous foray into Canada. A lot of our furniture was kind of picked up off the street. Yeah. I don't know. When I look back, it really gives me, I think, a unique perspective because I do feel like I've lived pretty much every single rung of the socioeconomic ladder and I know what it feels like not to have running water, you know, and then I know what it feels like to be, you know, to live in a place as wonderful as Canada. But, you know, you know, starting off at the very bottom as well.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

Our guest is actor Simu Liu. His films include Shang Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings, Barbie and the new film Last Breath. More after a break. I'm Ann Marie Baldonado and this is FRESH air.

[Simu Liu]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Saatva founder and CEO Ron Rudson. Shares why Saatva sales associates are focused on finding the perfect mattress for their customers. At Saatva, we have a 365 day home trial. Why would we want to rush you or try to push you into something that's not right for you? We want to make sure that we guide you to the right mattress. Our team is always available to be helpful to make sure you make the right choice. To learn more, go to saatva.com NPR if you're a super fan of FRESH Air. With Terry Gross, we have exciting news. WHYY has launched a Fresh Air Society, a leadership group dedicated to ensuring Fresh Air's legacy. For over 50 years, this program has brought you fascinating interviews with favorite authors, artists, actors, and more. As a member of the FRESH AIR Society, you'll receive special benefits and recognition.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

Learn [e-mail] Fresh AirSociety in your memoir, you write about how difficult it was for you growing up as a teenager with your parents and their unrealistic expectations for you. What was so hard about your relationship back then in your teens?

[Simu Liu]

Yeah, I think when you have parents who weren't necessarily present in your formative years, in the first five years of life, like, that's, that's when a lot of your personality is solidified, you know, and when you don't have that bond, there's bound to be a little bit of distance. And, you know, I was effectively adopted by my own biological parents. Right. You know, on the other side of that for my parents, and to their defense, like, they also weren't necessarily in the rhythm of childcare. It's a never ending job in and of itself. And so I think to have one day no kid and then overnight have a five year old just dropped into your life, I think is pretty violent change. And so, yeah, I mean, I think growing up there was definitely, you know, some tougher times for us to get along. And it really came to a head when I was a teenager, when I went through puberty. I think I was actually pretty good in the beginning of being the perfect kind of immigrant kid and getting good grades. But then I got got older and hormones happened and of course, every kid starts to get to a place where they're questioning their parents. And for me, I knew that I was being pushed in a certain way. And I really wanted to do sports and I wanted to have a girlfriend and do all these normal people things that my parents, being from a different generation, a different culture were like, why are you concerned about these things? You should be focused on your studies. And it really just came down to just very, very different values.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

Your memoir is this beautiful, I think way to try to reconcile what a lot of Asian American and Asian Canadian children of immigrants go through, that tension between knowing that your immigrant parents gave up so much for you, but they put all this pressure on you to succeed in a way that they understand.

[Simu Liu]

Yeah.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

And it's not open to other way. And I feel like you telling the story of your grandparents and your parents and your own story, trying to understand what they went through, it was like you were trying to repair the hurt across generations the way you do that by explaining their lives and their hardships and what they came to parenting with as their background. Can you quickly describe what their teen years were like? Because it's this contrast to your teen years, obviously.

[Simu Liu]

Yeah, for sure. You know, my parents grew up in the midst of the Cultural Revolution in China, which, you know, between 1966 and 1976 was a very, you know, a very tumultuous time for a lot of the people living in China. It was very hard for a lot of reasons. But one of the things about the Cultural Revolution was that college studies all across the country were kind of. So instead of going to college, you would kind of go to work in the fields. That was a way to, like, teach Chinese youths about proletariat life. And so, yeah, my mom is a couple years older than my dad, which I know if she hears this, she will kill me. But she had graduated high school and had. Was fully working in the fields, and my dad was kind of just on the verge of graduating when. When actually Mao Zedong died and his successor kind of reinstated the college pipeline and the entrance, the national entrance exam. And so because of that, you know, my mom was able to go to college. You know, she was studying for the standard test called the gaukau, but she was studying for that every day after working, you know, 12 hours in the field. And my dad was lucky enough kind of to go straight from. From high school to college to university, and that was where they met. And, you know, from there, you know, they fell in love, they got married, started to live in Beijing together, and became very enamored and very fixated on this idea of studying abroad, and then the rest is history for them.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

It was like, literally the education that saved them.

[Simu Liu]

Yeah. And also, you know, when you're immigrants coming to an entirely new country and, you know, there's culture shock and there's a new language, there's also a complete lack of support network. There's no safety net to fall back on, you know, and so I think there's quite a bit of fear and anxiety that immigrants experience every day, that everything they have, if they're not able to make money and put a roof over their heads and their families heads, like, that's it. You're out on the street or you're going back home, you're packing your bags, there is no friend that you can call, there's no parents. It's a very stressful existence every day. And when, especially when you have a son like me who growing up is like, trying to try out for the basketball team and doing hip hop dancing and you're like, no, please be an engineer now.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

Even though you loved performing in high school and college, whether it was starting a high school boy band or performing in front of other students, you still went through school and university and got a business degree and graduated and became an accountant. But your accounting career was short lived. Can you talk about what happened there? Your acting origin story?

[Simu Liu]

My acting origin story? Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think as rebellious as I was, even I couldn't fully disabuse myself from my parents notion of success. Like, you know, I'd been working as an accountant just completely and utterly miserable. I start going on Craigslist because for whatever reason, I had some friends who knew some people in just tangentially related to like film and television. And there was a fair amount of stuff that shot in Toronto. I had friends from the parkour community that were stuntmen, people that I knew that were kind of extras on TV and movie sets. And I just remember being so jealous of them. And I started going on Craigslist to look for these acting opportunities, just, you know, initially for fun. I really had no end game in mind. But I wound up skipping work one day to be an extra on a Guillermo del Toro movie that was shooting in Toronto. And it was called Pacific.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

That's pretty high level too. High level?

[Simu Liu]

Yeah, yeah, pretty, pretty amazing. First set to be on and I, you know, turned my phone off all day and when I turned my phone back on, I had something like 47 missed calls. And I was like, oh, I'm in trouble. I got fired very, very shortly after that, which, you know, honestly understandable. But yeah, that, that was the end of my very short lived career as, as an accountant. But I was very lucky to kind of book a couple of things very quickly. And then I caught the bug and I thought, look, if I could just keep doing that, you know, wouldn't that be a pretty incredible thing? I was waking up every day really motivated to go out and look for work. And I was just kind of experiencing this entirely new version of myself because my whole life I thought that I was just a lazy, undermotivated guy. I thought that I wasn't smart and I thought that I wasn't a great student because I wasn't a hard worker. And you know, all of a sudden I was kind of pleasantly surprised by how motivated and hardworking I could be. And I just knew that there was something to that that I had to keep going and obviously kept it from my parents for a very long time, but in secret started to, you know, audition. And I got an agent in Toronto and, yeah, was off to the races.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

What was it like breaking into acting and performing, having no past experience, no training, no family in the business? What kind of jobs did you get?

[Simu Liu]

Yeah, thank you for saying that. I really had no idea what I was doing. And it was very much a trial by fire, like, make every mistake in the book. And I guess where I was lucky, too, was it was around a time where I think these kind of very preliminary conversations about diversity were starting to happen. So I was an Asian actor in Toronto, Canada, so it was already a small market. I was thrown into my first few auditions right away. And my first role was desk cop number one for this show called Nikita. And I had to speak with a Chinese actor. And in doing those kind of day player roles, I remember I did every accent in the book. I played a Japanese air traffic controller for the show called May Day. And then it became very obvious to me that I needed to kind of deepen my skillset if I wanted to progress. Right. You know, I took like Second City acting classes and improv. I took every single night acting class that was available to me in Toronto. Basically, any money that I made on the job, I put back into the business and then somehow wound up in a situation in 2016 where a sitcom called Kim's Convenience came along and I just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. My guest is actor and writer Simu Liu. His films include Shang Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings and Barbie. His new film is called Last Breath. More after a break. This is FRESH air. You've talked about this before, but I want to ask you about being hired to do stock photos. So, you know, if someone needs a photo of a diverse workplace or people working in an office at all, they could find a photo of you. Was that a good job for you at the time? And why are those photos still out there?

[Simu Liu]

Yeah, I wouldn't say it was a good job. I would say it was a job. I just kind of was doing everything that I could to pursue my dream and to fuel my passion. So one of those things was to be a stock photo model. And I'm sure I didn't realize the full consequences of my actions at the time.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

Of your hundred bucks?

[Simu Liu]

Of my hundred bucks. But I remember paid 100 bucks for a day of work, and I show up and I've Got all these different changes. I actually showed up with all of my work outfits. So these were outfits that I actually wore to my job at Deloitte that obviously I wasn't wearing anymore because I wasn't an accountant. But I was like, oh, I think I could accurately portray this office environment, having lived it for a short time. So I showed up with all my work outfits. We did all these different poses in the boardroom. I put on a suit. I pointed at computers and smiled at people. And then I thought that would be it. Little did I know the photos would actually do really well. And I've seen myself on billboards. I've seen myself on corporate websites and accounting books, on the COVID of accounting textbooks. And so when you're a stock photo model, you basically sign away your rights to the images in perpetuity, and the stock photo company can basically take those images and just sell them over and over and over and over again. So, you know, I probably made that company, like, hundreds of thousands of dollars and have not seen a single penny, because, again, when you're a stock photo model, I think it's actually pretty exploitative. But, you know, you get paid your 100 bucks, and then that's it. You sign a waiver, and then you know that you relinquish any and all rights to those images. So let that be a warning to anybody who's considering pursuing a career in stock imagery. Be warned.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

Watch out.

[Simu Liu]

You will end up in random places, and your friends will make fun of you endlessly.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

For I want to ask you about Shang Chi and the legend of the Ten Rings. And Shang Chi is the first Asian character to be a lead in the Marvel Universe. The film was released in 2021. Let's play a scene from the film. And as with a lot of Marvel films, it's kind of challenging to set up the story. But when we meet you at the beginning of the film, you play Sean, who lives in San Francisco and spends a lot of time with his friend Katie, played by Awkwafina. You're attacked by assassins on a bus, and it comes out that your character has a secret identity. Your father was an immortal warrior, and your mother was also a magical fighter. And when your character was still a child, your mom gets murdered, and your father wants you to avenge her death. Instead, your character flees to the US it's now a decade later, and the father is looking for you and trying to call you back. Now, in this scene, it's your character explaining the story to Awkwafina.

[Simu Liu]

I Know, this is a lot to dump on you.

[Terry Gross]

I'm sorry about you, Mom.

[Simu Liu]

I should also probably mention that my name's not technically short. Sean. What?

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

What is it?

[Simu Liu]

It's Shangi.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

Shan Chi.

[Simu Liu]

Shang Shan Chi. Shang Shan. Shang Shan. S H A N G. Shang.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

Shang.

[Simu Liu]

Yeah.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

You change your name from Shang to Shan?

[Simu Liu]

Yeah. I don't.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

I wonder how your father found you.

[Simu Liu]

I was 15 years old.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

All right, what is your name? Change logic. You go into hiding, and your name is Michael. You want to change it to Michelle.

[Simu Liu]

That's not what happened.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

It's like, hi, my name's Gino. I'm gonna go into hiding. My new name's Gina. That's a scene from the film Shang Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings. The story goes that before you got this role, you tweeted at Marvel about how they needed to have an Asian superhero.

[Simu Liu]

I did, yeah. Yeah. I was very chronically online as a young adult. Yeah. And, you know, I would have these moments at 3am where I'd get intensely frustrated about my career. And, you know, I was starting to have all these kind of rudimentary thoughts about representation. But, of course, yeah, I was watching Marvel movies. I loved Marvel movies. And I was just like, when are we gonna have ours? You know, when are we gonna have an Asian version of Thor or Captain America? When are we gonna have our superhero that we could look up to, you know? Or girl? By the way, I have to say, you did a fantastic job setting up the story of Shang Chi. I really. I was blown away by how succinctly you captured the story of the Wenwu and the Shang Chi of it all. And then the clip that you played, I really. It's so funny listening to it without the picture. It just reminded me just how talented of an improviser. Nora Awkwafina is a really, really good friend of mine today still, and just brought back a lot of amazing memories. So thank you for sharing that.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

Well, yeah, that's. Watching this film back. You know, it's so funny. You two are very funny together. And of course, it's this action movie. But there are also all these parallels between your character and your life. You know, there's the idea of parents wanting you to be something you're not of. In the case of the movie, it's about being an assassin, but still. And then there are also these ideas, as we heard in the scene, like these ideas of trying to assimilate and trying to blend in. Was that one of the things that was attractive about this movie?

[Simu Liu]

I mean, yeah, look, I would have done this movie for free. I would have paid to do this movie. Let's just be clear. But no, I remember auditioning over the course of auditioning for this movie, and in my mind I immediately go to, oh, are they gonna cast somebody from Asia? Are they gonna cast a national champion martial artist or something? What is the story that they wanna tell here? Didn't necessarily feel like immediately apparent that it was gonna be the kind of story that it was. But then Destin, Daniel Cretton being attached as director, I think informed a lot of the direction that I think the studio wanted to go with it, which I'm not gonna say was an Asian American story because I do think that the movie is for everyone. But, you know, it's just really incredible that Destin was able to find a way in and to, you know, tell the story about a flawed but ultimately human character who, you know, is running running away from who he is and running away from his parents and eventually chooses to embrace it but on his terms.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

My guest is Simu Liu. He stars in the Marvel movie Shang Chi and Legend of the Ten Rings, the film Barbie and the TV sitcom Kim's Convenience. His new film is called Last Breath. More after a break. This is FRESH air. I think many people first saw you on the CBC show Kim's Convenience, about an immigrant family in Canada who runs a convenience store. The show was picked up by Netflix and got a lot of viewers through that, including my mother, by the way. And I wanna play a scene from from the pilot episode. Your character Jung is estranged from his dad who runs the convenience store. They haven't talked for years. Jung is working at a car rental place when his dad shows up one day to return a car. Jung doesn't want to talk to his dad, so he asks his boss to talk to him instead.

[Terry Gross]

Hey, what's up?

[Simu Liu]

Here's the thing. One of when I was 16, my dad kicked me out or I might have run away. It's all kind of blurry. We're sharing. When I was 15, I got a perm. Really didn't suit me. No, that's my dad. Okay. I don't know how he knew that I worked here. I can't talk to him. Can you handle this? I've been trying to get my cell phone plan upgraded for the last 40 minutes. Please, I will owe you big time. Okay, fine. But I'm talking to Peggy and I want unlimited texting in Canada and the U.S. not Brazil, not Costa Rica, not Paraguay. Got It.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

That's a scene from the first episode of Kim's Convenience. I thought it was interesting, reading your book, that there was this echo in the show, in this first big role that you got early in your career.

[Simu Liu]

I remember being kind of 23 years old and deciding that I was gonna be an actor. I mean, that catalyzed a moment of extreme tension with my parents, and so we would not speak to each other for long periods of time. I think it was very, very difficult for my parents to understand that choice. So, yeah, when Kim's Convenience came along, it was originally a play, actually, and I'd watched the stage play before auditioning for the show, but the play left me in tears because, really, the first time that I had seen that parent child dynamic play out on stage and was so true to life, it was so relatable to what I had been through and what I was going through, even in that moment, that I was just overwhelmed. I remember sitting in my seat crying and realizing that that's what it felt like to have art that you could connect with. And getting to play Jiang and getting to act his. You know, act out his dynamic with his amma and his Appa, I think helped me make a lot of sense of what my parents are going through. Right. And I think that actually set the stage for our reconciliation quite nicely. Not only in that it gave me consistent work as an actor, and so kind of made my parents actually kind of realize that I was gonna do this.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

And they used to watch it with friends. Sure.

[Simu Liu]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was quite a big deal in Canada before it was kind of blown up to a global audience with Netflix. But the other part of it was, I think, through the characters, we were learning about each other. I was learning about what my parents were going through through the Amma and Appa character, and they were learning about what I was going through and what I wanted through the Jung character. And it kind of brought us closer together, which I will always be so endlessly grateful for, among other things.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

How are your parents feeling about you being an actor now?

[Simu Liu]

Feeling pretty good. They're both retired. My dad retired at age 60. He retired during the pandemic. He didn't necessarily feel like he would have to spend time supporting me, and he was like, I think I'm gonna be okay. So he was able to retire, and my mother retired very, very shortly after that. And now they kind of just travel. The. They don't experience any more anxiety about having to subsidize my life or support me. So it's a wonderful kind of happy ending for them. I think every time I talk to them, they've always kind of just come back from a cruise or are just about to go on a cruise. I think they're due to be in the Caribbean next week or something. And you know, it's some cruel reversal of roles. Being on set on a 16 hour night shoot and, you know, having your parents send you photos of them on vacation on your phone. It is a really ironic kind of role reversal situation. But I'm very, I'm very, very glad.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

Simu Liu, thank you so much for speaking with me today.

[Simu Liu]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Terry Gross]

Simu Liu stars in the new film Last Breath. He spoke with Fresh Air's Anne Marie Boldonado to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers recommendations for what to watch, read and listen to. Subscribe to our free [e-mail] fresh air. And this week we have a special exclusive for our newsletter subscribers. I just interviewed comic Bill Burr. It was hilarious and a wild ride. Also very hard to edit down to fit our broadcast. It's airing Monday, but we're offering an early listen of an extended version of that interview if you subscribe to our newsletter. To sign up, go to whyy.org fresh air. It'll come directly to your inbox Saturday morning. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Roberta Shorrock, Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Bodonato, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Melissa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Anna Bauman and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. nessberg. Susan Yakundi directed today's show. Our co host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.

[Simu Liu]

Hey, it's hey Martinez. I work on a news show and yeah, the news can feel like a lot on any given day. But you just can't ignore la noticias when important world changing events are happening. So that is where the Up first podcast comes in. Every single morning in under 15 minutes, we take the news and boil it down to three essential stories you can keep up without feeling stressed out. Listen to the Upverse podcast from npr. These days there's so much news it can be hard to keep up with what it all means for you, your family and your community. The Consider this podcast from NPR features our award winning journalism. Six days a week we bring you a deep dive on a news story and provide the context and analysis that helps you make sense of the news. News. We get behind the headlines. We get to the truth. Listen to the Consider this podcast from NPR.