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- [00:00]
Terry Gross
This message comes from Capital One. Your business faces unique challenges and opportunities. That's why Capital One offers a comprehensive suite of financial services backed by the strength of a top 10 commercial bank. Visit capitalone.com Commercial Member FDIC hi, it's Terry Gross.
- [00:19]
Anamaria Sayer
Before we start our show, I want to take a minute to remind you that today is Giving Tuesday, which is so named because it's become a day of expressing gratitude by giving money or any kind of help to an individual or group or organization that matters to you. We've found a way to turn Giving Tuesday into Giving and Getting Tuesday. If you subscribe to NPR plus in return, you'll be getting special bonus episodes from a bunch of NPR podcasts. These bonus episodes are available only to NPR subscribers. On FRESH air's bonus episodes, you'll hear hosted, curated, timely interviews from our archive every week. NPR plus members also get to listen to all NPR podcasts without interruptions from sponsors. And the subscription is a tax deductible donation. It's a win, win. So join us at plus.npr.org that's plus.npr.org or you can always make a gift at donate.npr.org thank you, and thanks to everyone who's already supporting us. And now on with the show.
- [01:28]
Tanya Mosley
This is FRESH air. I'm Tanya Mosley, and today my guest is multidisciplinary artist Mickalene Thomas. In Thomas Art, black women are front and center. Her subjects are often at leisure, resting on couches and chairs, sometimes clothed, sometimes fully nude, accentuated by rhinestones in rich, colorful patterns. The scale of her paintings, often made of unconventional materials like glitter, sequins and yarn, makes them feel larger than life. With the eyes of her subjects gazing directly at us, Thomas Art made me think about the slew of recent articles in the New York Times, Associated Press, Teen Vogue and others that delve into the sentiment many black women felt after the outcome of the presidential race. One headline read, disillusioned by the election, some Black women are deciding to rest. Thomas Art showcases black women not in servitude as often depicted in fine art, but at leisure, claiming space. She often recasts scenes from the 19th century French paintings centering black sensuality and power. And she's also collaborated with singer Solange for an album cover. And she painted the first individual portrait of First Lady Michelle Obama, which was displayed at the National Portrait Gallery. Her latest exhibition, all About Love, is midway through an international tour with stops in Los Angeles, Philadelphia and France. It features 50 paintings, collages and photography spanning over two decades inspired by the women in her life, including her mother, who died in 2012. Mickalene Thomas, welcome to FRESH AIR. And I know you're battling a cold, so I want to thank you for taking the time to talk with us with this raging cold.
- [03:16]
Mickalene Thomas
Thank you so much for having me. Hopefully I'm not too congested.
- [03:21]
Tanya Mosley
I want to talk about this latest conversation that many black women are having because as we know, Black women sit at this intersection of race and gender, which, for better or worse, actually means that our existence is political. And I'm just wondering, as an artist whose muses are Black women, how would you describe your art and the messages that it's conveying?
- [03:44]
Mickalene Thomas
I think I would describe my art as radically shifting sort of notions of beauty by claiming space that has been often not have us on the platform as the leading character. We've been supportive characters for far too long. And historical images. And that my art gives black women their flowers and let them know that they are the leading role and validating that. And so there's intersections of using and juxtaposing historical tropes, but also disrupting and breaking sort of down those notions of beauty, of ideation that is whole to what is beauty. Right. And so for me, I just look around my community within my world and started with my mother.
- [04:54]
Tanya Mosley
You grew up In Camden, New Jersey.
- [04:56]
Mickalene Thomas
Yes.
- [04:57]
Tanya Mosley
About 15 minutes from the Barnes in Philadelphia where your latest exhibit is showing. And for those who don't know, that museum is really steeped in the classics. It prides itself in showing the world's finest artists. So Matisse and Picasso are shown there. Your art has been shown worldwide. But what does it mean for you to have your work shown at a place like the Barnes, just really not too far from where you grew up?
- [05:29]
Mickalene Thomas
Yeah, I think the Barnes as an institution has always been committed to a particular community engagement, and it always has been about the art and the artist. But for this exhibition to be 15 minutes away from my family, I mean, it was, to be quite honest, like I was very anxious and nervous about it, mainly because, yeah, because most of my family members were going to see my work for the first time in person. Like my aunts and uncles, my cousins.
- [06:10]
Tanya Mosley
They had never seen it prior to that.
- [06:11]
Mickalene Thomas
Yeah, even my father showed up. My brothers brought my father. So. And a lot of times, you know, people have their own understanding of art. And sometimes, you know, art can be a little elitist and we kind of go off and do things and it's conceptual and, you know, visually you might not understand and Some of them were gonna see my mother and reposed in the nude. They're gonna see me repose, then reclined in a nude. And they may go, why are you doing that? Why are you showing all that? Why are you exposing yourself? You know?
- [06:52]
Tanya Mosley
Yeah. I think it's so interesting, you know, artists who create work and the world sees it. I mean, the world sees your nude body and your mother in repose, but those who are the closest, you feel like there's the most anxiety around showing it to them. What was. What has been their reaction?
- [07:11]
Mickalene Thomas
Well, one of my cousins was like, why are you gonna go and show your mom that way? And I. And I said, well, you know, my mother loves being shown that way. She actually gave me the permission to photograph her exposed. And so I think for them, they were so proud and excited to just be a part of it. Most of them came to the opening night, which was a gala event, so it was an extravaganza. You know, it was, like, very just, like, colorful and just lots of different types of people and the music and the energy. So I think for them to experience that part of my life made them feel special, because I admit I haven't always been open to sharing that part of my life.
- [08:10]
Tanya Mosley
How did it feel for you to have them receive that?
- [08:13]
Mickalene Thomas
Freeing. It felt freeing, and it felt supportive. And just to see the smiles. My brother stood in front of one of the paintings of my mother titled Dim all the Lights. She's wearing a red and black sweater, and her hands are on the side. And it was quite beautiful to watch him engage with the painting. But he stood there just. And I was behind him speaking with other family members. But I was watching him on the side, and he kept gesturing the same movement as her for a long time. And he turned around and said, that's her. I know that, Stan. I know that's her. That's what she does. And that just made me feel so. And he had this glow and this light on his face. And I think for him, you know, my mother's birthday was coming up, so it was like this energy, you know. My mother's birthday, October 27th, the opening was October 18th. So I think it was this energy. She was there, right. And he. There was this moment that you had to witness that you could see he.
- [09:30]
Tanya Mosley
Was connecting to her for a span of time. You actually had museums that were resistant to showing your work. Yes. And you believe that it had to do not with the subject matter, but how your subject matter was presented. Like how you were presenting the Black body. Can you say more about that?
- [09:53]
Mickalene Thomas
Yeah, I think still today, I still believe, based on my experiences as an artist, that institutions are not comfortable with the nude black body if it's not stereotypically presented in ways of. I think I present the nude black body in a way of just like celebrating and honoring and putting forth all of the strong qualities. I think unless it's about trauma.
- [10:37]
Tanya Mosley
Trauma or I think you've said like servitude.
- [10:40]
Mickalene Thomas
Servitude.
- [10:41]
Tanya Mosley
Entertainment.
- [10:42]
Mickalene Thomas
Yeah. Or entertainment. Yeah. And I think the gesturing of like us being performative for an audience is still the notions that they boxes in or compartmentalize. Some visual artists.
- [11:04]
Tanya Mosley
I found this to be like an interesting idea when you brought this up, because it was something that I hadn't thought about when you said this. I thought, well, I've seen lots of art where there are black bodies, nude black bodies. But what's different about yours, once I reflected on what you're saying, is that. So, for instance, there's a painting of a black woman who's nude and she's leaning back in a chair. Like people can interpret that as sexual, but it's not sexual. No, it's just a body leaning back on a chair. And it's also not performative in the entertainment sense either. It just is.
- [11:44]
Mickalene Thomas
It just is. And it's the state of resting, the state of being, the state of existing and rooted and grounded in that space, I think is somewhat threatening to people of the ownership of it. Taking accountability for their own space. I think when that is exuded, that sense of strength is oftentime kind of felt with aggression or a threat. I've had people say, oh, your images are. The women are very confronting. And I said, their gaze is very confronting.
- [12:26]
Tanya Mosley
That they say, because you're right, because many of your subjects are looking right at you, like straight out at you.
- [12:33]
Mickalene Thomas
They're looking straight out at. They're demanding the space. They're not demanding to be validated. They're just letting you know that they're there and that. But with all that too, there's still, you know, the other side is vulnerability and sensitivity. And I think it's just one sided. If you're gonna look at it as that, the women are confronting you. But that's. I think that comes from their understanding. Like, if you approach an image, I can't control what you bring to it because you're bringing these ideas of what you think of black women when they're sort of seated in the position of all knowingness. There's, you know, but we have been. We sat on thrones before, and I think, you know, we've been queens and kings. And, you know, I think more of those images are now being put forth and celebrated, which is incredible. I love seeing that some of your.
- [13:42]
Tanya Mosley
Works, they also, like, directly reference scenes from your own life, but also classic compositions from the fine art canon. So there's the. Your interpretation of the 1862 French painting luncheon in the Grass.
- [13:58]
Mickalene Thomas
Grass, yes.
- [13:59]
Tanya Mosley
Yeah. You take those paintings and then turn them into black representations. Do you remember how that idea in particular to take on Luncheon in the Grass came about?
- [14:09]
Mickalene Thomas
Yeah, I do. It was an idea I had. I was already working with the images I've seen. Like Renee Cox, there's been a lot of artists who work with Luncheon and Grass as a concept of shifting sort of the paradigm of sort of the black bodies and sort of these Western canon ideas of histories. And I wanted to ally myself and sort of. It was through actually, Ramir Bearden that I started thinking about Lunching it in the Grass and thinking about what it would mean to have three black women seated in this position. And it came from a commission that was presented to me by Klaus Biesenbach. At the time, he was the curator of photography and media at MoMA and also the director of MoMA PS1. And so he missioned me to present a body of work in the window of the Modern. And I immediately knew when I saw the space that I wanted to do Le Dejeuner, 1, because of the opportunity of the space that it was going to be located, two, because I had the opportunity for the first time to shoot sights, specifically at the MoMA and the sculpture garden with the Matisse in the background. And three, I knew that many people would see this.
- [15:56]
Tanya Mosley
Yeah.
- [15:57]
Mickalene Thomas
And then it was going to be my largest painting to that date. At that point, I was only working like 40, like 4 by 5 or 4ft by 5ft, or like no larger than 6ft.
- [16:10]
Tanya Mosley
And how large was this?
- [16:12]
Mickalene Thomas
This was 10 by 20ft.
- [16:15]
Tanya Mosley
For those who don't know Luncheon in the Grass, can you explain what that painting is and who the original subjects of the painting were?
- [16:22]
Mickalene Thomas
Oh, Luncheon in Of the Grass, Le Dejeuner Salur by Manet. And it was a very provocative painting. Large oil painting of three figures, but it's actually four figures. Oftentimes they always speak about Lunching in of Grass with three figures, but there's a fourth figure because there's one person that's bathing in the back. And I think there's one figure that depicts a female nude and then the kind of half dressed female bather in the back that's often removed when it's remade. Three main figures on a picnic. And it's a woman seated with two dressed men, fully dressed men. I guess that really is. Was at the time very controversial because to have a painting that sort of depicts this nude woman just at leisure at a picnic with a dress, it's like, what is going on here?
- [17:30]
Tanya Mosley
And then to recreate it to where there's three black women.
- [17:33]
Mickalene Thomas
Yes, yeah, but to recreate it with three black women who are fully dressed. But this particular painting made Edouard Manet very famous because it was very controversy. And it's an incredible work that is in France and is still there. I think it's at the Musee d'orsay. I decided to reinterpret or reclaim the space with empowering the one woman or the half dressed woman, the bather and the one woman undress as three powerful women who are fully clothed, seated and not at a picnic, just lounging and giving each other their flowers. And I thought that was very important for me as you see them see her handing flowers as a way as like for me as black women seeing each other as a sisterhood of community. I think that's mostly what I wanted to convey sort of this bond, this sisterhood, this love between black women that I grew up experiencing.
- [18:44]
Tanya Mosley
What was the reaction from folks?
- [18:46]
Mickalene Thomas
Oh my gosh. I think if we. I think if Instagram was around then I probably would have had a million followers.
- [18:54]
Tanya Mosley
Yeah. Because this was what year?
- [18:56]
Mickalene Thomas
Yeah, it was in 2010. Yeah, yeah, it was 2010. And it stayed at the Modern Window for about two years. And I think the modern kept it there because they kept saying that it was bringing a large demographic of people into the museum. Which was amazing because.
- [19:17]
Tanya Mosley
Also. Right. It was also.
- [19:18]
Mickalene Thomas
It was 53rd Street. You know, you walk by, you look like, what is this? And I think people expected to see.
- [19:25]
Tanya Mosley
More inside, but they weren't getting more of that. But it just speaks to what you had been told though about the desire to see black art.
- [19:34]
Mickalene Thomas
Yeah, I think, you know, we have to see images of ourselves. I mean, you go through a lot of the different spaces and you just, you know, unless you go to the specified or spaces of African art or Egyptian art, then you start to see elements of yourself. And this is just. With their permanent collections now, they're starting to realize that there been gaps and they're collecting histories.
- [20:09]
Tanya Mosley
Right. That's really interesting in thinking about how art plays such a role in like, it's a historical imprint.
- [20:17]
Mickalene Thomas
It is. I mean, for me, I have to say that art I would I often think that art has saved my life for sure. You know, growing up, going to after school programs at the Newark Museum, like, it was like for me this safe haven, this comfort, this refuge. I love going there after school. I love doing all the craft projects, the paper mache and, you know, exploring different ways of making self portraits or building houses with Popsicle sticks and all of those things that you were doing or like, you know, the taller paper tubes and, you know, making constructions. You know, that it was an outlet, but it wasn't.
- [21:07]
Tanya Mosley
It was an outlet, but it wasn't like a career path for you back then?
- [21:12]
Mickalene Thomas
No, not at that time. For me, it was just an outlet, a way of expressing myself, but also a place to go after school until my mother got off of work.
- [21:24]
Tanya Mosley
Our guest today is multidisciplinary artist Mickalene Thomas. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Moseley and this is FRESH air.
- [21:33]
Terry Gross
This message comes from NPR sponsor Saatva Founder and CEO Ron Rudsen shares why Saatva sales associates are focused on finding the perfect mattress for their customers.
- [21:44]
Tanya Mosley
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- [22:00]
Terry Gross
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- [22:55]
Tanya Mosley
Your work is so layered. You use the collage as we talked about, but sequins in rhinestones. And at first you were using those materials because you didn't have the money for paint, but you've continued to use them.
- [23:10]
Mickalene Thomas
Yeah. So I when I was In Pratt, I couldn't afford oil paint. I would rummage often through the recycled stretcher bins and gather my materials from that. All I could afford was craft materials because they were cheaper than oil paint, like felt and different fabrics and glitter. It was cheaper than tubes of oil paint. I gravitated towards those materials because they were accessible and affordable for me. But what they did was open up a way of expressing myself. But then when I also to note that during that time, it was the Sensation show at Brooklyn Museum. So you had all of these Great Britain artists that were showing at the Sensation show, and they were using all kinds of material from, like, Chris Sofly, the Elephant Dong. And, you know, you had Tracey Emin personally tell a story, you know, making a tent out of, like, felt and canvas and all kind of material. And so I think seeing exhibitions like that really were paramount. But, yeah, there was a struggle completing some assignments because some you had to use oil paint or some you had to use the traditional materials to.
- [24:41]
Tanya Mosley
And what would you do to get those?
- [24:43]
Mickalene Thomas
I would borrow or, you know, some of the. My peers were. They were good. They were like, oh, yeah, he used some of this. People weren't too stingy or trying to keep you away from them. But I think we all were working and they saw that I was definitely in my studio all the time. And so sometimes people throw away tubes of paint because they think it's not good. And you just cut it open. It's still paint in there, Right?
- [25:09]
Tanya Mosley
Right. There's still so much paint.
- [25:10]
Mickalene Thomas
When you open that up, it's kind of like toothpaste. So I would take an exacto knife and cut it down the middle and just open it up and kind of like with some of the Terp medium, just use some of what I had.
- [25:26]
Tanya Mosley
I want to talk about your entry for a moment into art, because growing up, although you did art as a hobby, you didn't know that you actually wanted to be an artist. But some very pivotal things happened to you early in life. When you were around 17 or so. How did you find your way into the art world?
- [25:47]
Mickalene Thomas
Well, when I was very young, about 16, going on to 17, I was going through my own transformation of my identity sexually. My mother was struggling with her addiction. I was living with my grandmother, my father's mother, who I was very close with up until she passed, and I fell in love. And so I moved to Portland, Oregon, with my girlfriend at the time and end up going a high school in Portland. And after living there with her probably about three years, we Separated, she moves back with her family. I decided that I wanted to stay. My mother came to visit me to confirm that I wanted to stay. And I said, yeah, I was living in Portland, decided to go to Portland State for a couple of years. And that's when I found interest in pre law and theater arts.
- [27:05]
Tanya Mosley
That just says so much about you. 17 years old, not even done with high school. You're going to move across the country to Portland, Oregon from New Jersey. Very different place. But during that time period you discovered artist and photographer Carrie Mae Weems. Can you take us there to when you first encountered her work and what it was about her work that really ignited you as this pre law theater student?
- [27:31]
Mickalene Thomas
Yeah, yeah. My. While I was living in Portland, after realizing that I couldn't really afford college and that I needed to work, I started working at Davis Wright Tremaine law firm. Started as a file clerk and document clerk. And a good friend of mine who was a photographer, Christopher Stark, had just returned from his internship with Nan Golden. And while he was in New York, he learned about all of these photographers. Carrie Mae Weems was one of the photographers he learned about. So when he came back to Portland, ironically, Carrie Mae Weems had a show up at Portland Art Museum. And he dragged. He said, you must see this photographer's work. I know you're going to connect with it. And so I went with him to see Carrie Mae Weems show at the Portland Art Museum and describe for people.
- [28:35]
Tanya Mosley
Who don't know Carrie Mae Weems what her art articulates like. It really does showcase like everyday life.
- [28:46]
Mickalene Thomas
Her art is a series of photographs that really depicting sort of the black woman she's known for her early works of the Kitchen Table series. And that's the work that I first saw at the Portland Art Museum was her series of photographs which reminded me of my own family and myself. I just remember standing in front of those photographs and seeing myself. And I never felt that way before in front of art. And that was because I saw myself in the image. I saw myself as that little girl sitting at the table. I saw the woman as my mother. I saw the male, as whatever male figure that was in my life at the time, you know, and it was like depicting family, love, domesticity. It was just an expression of a black experience that was complex and dimensional. That allowed me to understand that there was a power with the image with black people in it. I kept going back to the exhibit after I went with my friend.
- [30:10]
Tanya Mosley
Really? How many times did you go, do you remember?
- [30:12]
Mickalene Thomas
Probably about four or five times.
- [30:14]
Tanya Mosley
Yeah.
- [30:15]
Mickalene Thomas
Until it closed. And then I also bought a stack of the postcards of the Table series and the Mirror Mirror and went to the art store to grab some supplies of Reeves BFK paper and some oil pastels and used Carrie Mae Weems postcard photographic images as references for, like, some of my drawings, just like looking at them.
- [30:52]
Tanya Mosley
Was that the first time when you started to consider that art could be a profession?
- [30:56]
Mickalene Thomas
Yeah. And then I was surrounded by artists in Portland who was embarking on that as a profession.
- [31:06]
Tanya Mosley
If you're just joining us, my guest is multidisciplinary artist Mickalene Thomas. She has a new art exhibit at the Barnes in Philadelphia that showcases 50 paintings, collages and photography that Thomas has created over the last two decades. We'll continue our conversations after a short break. This is FRESH air.
- [31:26]
Terry Gross
This message comes from Capella University. With Capella's flexpath learning format, you can set your own deadlines and learn on your schedule. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more@capella.edu.
- [31:42]
Tanya Mosley
Hey, it's Anamaria Sayer, co host of Alt Latino from NPR Music. Today is giving Tuesday the perfect time to give back to NPR for all the news, music, stories and overall good vibes it brings to your life. Please give today@donate.NPR.org thanks. This is Eric Glass on this American Life.
- [32:04]
David Bianculli
We specialize in compelling stories from everyday life.
- [32:06]
Mickalene Thomas
I was like, wow, you literally just.
- [32:09]
Anamaria Sayer
Died and came back and the first.
- [32:11]
Tanya Mosley
Thing you asked is do you need any money?
- [32:15]
David Bianculli
Real life stories, really good ones in your podcast, Feed this American Life.
- [32:26]
Tanya Mosley
Before your mother died, you had a chance to ask her a series of questions about your life growing up. You've alluded to her drug use. You also found out, though, that she sold drugs. And that was part of what afforded the life that you all had. It was modest, but you also always had nice things. And what was the story that you grew up with and then the one that you came to understand as true?
- [32:53]
Mickalene Thomas
I'm glad you asked this question because it wasn't like there was a story that I grew up with. It was a reality that I grew up with. You know, my brother and I lived in Hillside and a house, we had our own room and it was decorated the way any kid would want their room. You know, we had like the latest things all the time. My mother drove a Cadillac Seville, which was like at that time, expensive car. And my mother was taking care of the family in South Jersey. Whether it was helping family members out with Rent or medical bills or whatever was needed. That's what my mother was doing at that point. She was involved and engaged to a drug dealer, and then he eventually got caught. And so I guess at some point, my mother felt the responsibility to maintain things, and so she was selling the drugs and with some other people in her life.
- [34:05]
Tanya Mosley
What did it mean for you to know?
- [34:08]
Mickalene Thomas
So I didn't know it. I didn't know any of this until about 12 years ago. So a late adult. And because my mother kept. She kept a lot for me and my brother. She even kept the abuse that my father did in their relationship away from me and my brother. She never talked about that.
- [34:30]
Tanya Mosley
And so what did it mean for you to find out all of this?
- [34:35]
Mickalene Thomas
It was devastating at first, because I felt like there was a part of my life that was a lie. I didn't understand it. I had to go back in my own mind to try to figure out. But it made me understand why I was very shy to share things I.
- [34:52]
Tanya Mosley
Wanted to ask you. As part of your art practice, you posed your mom as Pam Grier.
- [34:58]
Mickalene Thomas
Yes. And that was my first set of photographs that I did within my class with David Hilliard at you.
- [35:06]
Tanya Mosley
What did Pam Grier represent?
- [35:10]
Mickalene Thomas
Oh, sexiness. Strong, unapologetic. Beauty. Vigilante savior, Goddess.
- [35:21]
Tanya Mosley
I thought that was so. Like, just even reading about it, I just. In the context of your mother's story, was really powerful because your mom, she was. She was all of those things to you. She was also an aspiring model, but she modeled for a while, but she never quite got the success or fame that she wanted. She never really felt understood.
- [35:49]
Mickalene Thomas
No, she didn't. And I think my mother, although she was very strong, I think, unfortunately, which I think happens to a lot of women who are abused. They're robbed, and things are stolen from them. And that's a level of confidence. So it was always manifesting in her life in different ways. And so I don't think she knew how to get over that. And so that opportunity for her to be a successful model, when that was also an opportunity that she lost, I think that was something that settled in her, that destroyed her a little. And I think that's part of my understanding as an adult. What might have led her to do some of the drugs she did, the addiction.
- [36:58]
Tanya Mosley
Is it true that you're near the age that your mother was when you started photographing her?
- [37:03]
Mickalene Thomas
Yes, I am. And I feel like she's definitely always around me. I know that for sure. Like, the other day is like, I sat down in a certain way. And I felt like I was sitting like my mother. I was like, oh, my mother sits like that. Like, I felt her.
- [37:22]
Tanya Mosley
Do you see her in the mirror when you look at her?
- [37:25]
Mickalene Thomas
Oh, yes. And I love it now. Before I grew up as a kid not looking like her and always covet the fact that I was like, why don't I look like my mother? And I had a cousin who looked like her. And they used to always mistake my cousin for my mother's daughter, which really kind of like messed me up as a child.
- [37:47]
Tanya Mosley
Yeah.
- [37:49]
Mickalene Thomas
But now when I look in the mirror, I was just like, ah, there you are.
- [37:55]
Tanya Mosley
Your mom got to see a lot of your art before she passed.
- [37:59]
Mickalene Thomas
Oh, yeah. She's got to see it, experience it, celebrate it. She was celebrated for it. She loved the fact that she was a part of my art. She loved coming to the openings. She loved coming to my friends openings. She never, when I decided I wanted to be an artist, she never looked at it as like, now, why do you want to go and do that? Some of those things were in my head. But she never, she never vocalized that she was a group supportive. Dance and music and all things theater. I mean, that's one of the things we shared.
- [38:38]
Tanya Mosley
Mickalene Thomas, thank you so much for this conversation.
- [38:41]
Mickalene Thomas
Thank you.
- [38:43]
Tanya Mosley
Mickalene Thomas is a multidisciplinary visual artist. Her latest exhibition, All About Love, is on view at the Barnes foundation in Philadelphia. Coming up, TV critic David Biancouli reviews the new documentary Beatles 64. This is FRESH AIR. Holiday travel is stressful, especially if you're dealing with family baggage on top of your actual baggage.
- [39:06]
Mickalene Thomas
I'm going home. I'm gonna revert back to old family roles that are stressful. And so this traffic jam is the straw that's breaking the camel's back.
- [39:17]
Tanya Mosley
But don't worry, we're here to bring you some relief. Listen to the Life Kit podcast.
- [39:21]
Anamaria Sayer
We'll help you out this holiday season.
- [39:23]
Terry Gross
The marketing for the movie Wicked has been inescapable. There's all the green and pink merch, and Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo have been everywhere. But does the movie live up to the hype? We know you've been waiting for this one. We've seen Wicked and we have thought and we'll get to them all, including some weirdly heated opinions on Defying Gravity. Listen to the Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast from NPR here and now.
- [39:48]
Tanya Mosley
Anytime is a podcast with fresh takes on the biggest stories of the day and also a little something you weren't expecting from a news show.
- [39:55]
Terry Gross
One thing we're wondering lately is Black Friday a ripoff? Peel back the marketing blitz and what.
- [40:02]
Tanya Mosley
Do you have left that's coming up on Here and Now, Anytime, wherever you listen to podcasts. Disney, which already gave us the three part Beatles documentary Get Back and the restored version of their Let It Be film, has another Beatles documentary to present. Called Beatles 64, it covers a very short but significant period in the group's history. TV critic David Biancouli has this review.
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David Bianculli
Good evening ladies and gentlemen. Tonight, live from New York, the Ed Sullivan show.
- [40:41]
Ronnie Spector
Sixty years later, what can a new film say or show about the Beatles first trip to America that isn't already familiar or that is presented in a significantly different fashion? As it turns out quite a lot. Beatles 64, the new documentary presented by Disney, works really well at exploring and explaining an intense two week period in musical and cultural history. Director David Tedeschi starts his film with the group's first trip to New York, landing at the newly renamed John F. Kennedy Airport on February 7, and ends with their return to Liverpool 15 days later. In between, they holed up at the Plaza Hotel, reach 73 million viewers on their first appearance on the Ed Sullivan show, played their first US concert in Washington D.C. did a second live Ed Sullivan show from Miami and flew back home triumphant, leaving America in the first giant wave of Beatlemania. Beatles 64 the film benefits greatly from behind the scenes and fan's eye view footage shot at the time by the Maisels brothers Albert and David, who also famously shot film of early Bob Dylan, the Rolling Stones at Altamont, and Little Edie and Big Edie at Grey Gardens. The group's first press conference at JFK has the press trying to make fun of the Beatles or treat them as novelties. But the four lads from Liverpool instantly win them over when one reporter repeats the accusation that the Beatles are nothing but four Elvis Presleys. Ringo Starr wiggles his pelvis in response and John Lennon follows to raucous laughter from the reporters. From the very start, they treat the press not as something to fear, but something to play.
- [42:29]
Tanya Mosley
Would you please sing something?
- [42:31]
David Bianculli
No, sorry. Next there's some doubt that you can sing. No, we need money first. Our psychiatrist frequently sent you nothing but four Elvis Presleys. Oh, be fine too. It's not true. What do you think your music does for these people? Well, pleases them, I think. Well they must do because they're buying it. Why does it excite them so much? We don't know really, if we knew, we'd form another group and be managers.
- [43:01]
Ronnie Spector
Vintage interview and performance clips are collected and presented artfully. George Harrison in an interview from the 90s, explains why the Beatles hit America and the press the way they did.
- [43:12]
David Bianculli
The Beatles were very. I mean, they actually were funny. Everybody in Liverpool thinks they're a comedian. I mean that's a well known fact. And you. All you have to do is drive up there and go through the Mersey Tunnel and the guy on the toll booth is a comedian. You know, they all are. We had that kind of bred and born into us. And when you just transposed it into New York or somewhere, it was, it was great. I mean we were just being hard faced really, and they loved it. And do you think it was being.
- [43:45]
Mickalene Thomas
Made even stronger by the fact there.
- [43:47]
David Bianculli
Were four of you bouncing off one another? Absolutely, yeah. You just dried up and somebody else was already there with another fab quip.
- [43:56]
Ronnie Spector
Another wonderful vintage interview from a decade ago has singer Ronnie Spector talking about how she and the Ronettes helped the Beatles escape from the Plaza Hotel, which was surrounded by a mob of adoring teenage fans.
- [44:08]
G
I'll tell you the truth, they had to escape. They were prisoners. So when I got a limousine, we went down the back stairs and went to Harlem. I said, I'm taking you to Harlem. Nobody will notice you up there. And they didn't. They thought they were a bunch of Spanish dogs because of Spanish Harlem. So they didn't pay them any mind. We went into Sherman's Barbecue, it was called 151st in Amsterdam. They went in and they loved it because nobody recognized them. You know, the black guys are eating their ribs and the Spanish guys and nobody paid them any attention. And it was great. They loved that, that nobody paid them any attention. See how sweet they were. They didn't care about stardom so much. Oh, we're going to be on Ed Sullivan. They said, Ronnie, who's Ed Sullivan? You know.
- [44:52]
Ronnie Spector
The film features new interviews as well. One of the film's producers, Martin Scorsese, conducts separate interviews with Paul McCartney and Ringo. McCartney is filmed at his Brooklyn photographic exhibit from earlier this year, where he points out one of his favorite photos that he took during those. The Beatles are relaxing poolside in Miami and George is being handed a drink by a young woman.
- [45:17]
David Bianculli
Liverpool guys, 15 years after World War II and we're now here in Miami. This is the one that sums up the good life in Florida. He's got his shades on, he's got the sunshine, he's got his drink and he's got the girl in the yellow bikini delivering it to him.
- [45:40]
Ronnie Spector
Instead of emphasizing the very familiar ed Sullivan footage, Beatles 64 instead presents complete songs from the much rarer Washington, D.C. performance, which was filmed in the round in a boxing ring for a closed circuit TV presentation. Giles Martin, the son of Beatles producer George Martin, remixed the music and it sounds great. One of the young people in the audience that day was film director David lynch, who talks about it.
- [46:07]
David Bianculli
I was in high school. I lived in Alexandria, Virginia. I was into rock and roll music, mainly Elvis Presley, who brought rock and roll music to the world to me. Anyway, I ended up going to this concert. I didn't really have any idea that it was the first concert. I didn't, I don't know. And it was, I didn't have any idea how big this event was. And it was in a gigantic place where they had boxing matches. The Beatles were in the boxing ring. It was so loud. You can't believe I'm gonna tell.
- [46:56]
Mickalene Thomas
Baby Song by the night. Yeah, I saw.
- [47:04]
Ronnie Spector
Other fresh stories come from such people as Jamie Bernstein, the daughter of Leonard Bernstein, record producer Jack Douglas, who tells a fabulous story about John Lennon, and Motown singer Smokey Robinson, who talks of the importance of the Beatles covering one of his songs. A year or so later, he'd return the favor on national television by singing Yesterday with the Miracles.
- [47:27]
David Bianculli
They were the first white group that I had ever heard in my life, the first white artist ever of their magnitude that I ever heard in my life. Say, yeah, we grew up listening to black music. We love Motown, we listen to black music. We don't know this person. No other white artist had ever said that, not anyone of magnitude until the Beatles said that.
- [47:50]
Ronnie Spector
By collecting the footage, gathering the stories and presenting very generous samples of the songs, Beatles 64 makes it clear why the Beatles made such an impact and why the group and its music continue to not only be remembered, but revered.
- [48:07]
Tanya Mosley
David Bianculi is professor of television studies at Rowan University. He's working on a book about the visual artistry of the Beatles. He reviewed Beatles 64, which is now streaming on Disney. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, Donald Trump has rolled out high level appointments at a dizzying speed. We talk with economist David Wessel about the team he's picked and what to expect from his plans to raise tariffs, cut taxes, deport immigrants, slash spending and abolish thousands of government regulations. I hope you can join us to keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram @NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Theresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producers are Molly CV Nesper and Sabrina Siewert. Roberta Shorok directs the show with Terry Gross. I'm Tanya Mosley.
- [49:18]
Terry Gross
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