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- [00:01]
Terry Gross
This message comes from Capital One.
- [00:03]
Sam Brigger
Banking with Capital One helps you keep.
- [00:05]
David Tennant
More money in your wallet with no.
- [00:06]
Sam Brigger
Fees or minimums on checking accounts. What's in your wallet terms apply. See capitalone.com bank for details. Capital One NA Member FDIC this is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today's guest, David Tennant is best known as an actor, but he also has an interview podcast, which is now in its third season. Some of this year's guests include Stanley Tucci, Ben Schwartz and Rosamund Pike. Tennant spoke with FRESH air's Sam Brigger. Here's Sam.
- [00:35]
Michael Sheen
Scottish actor David Tennant's list of accomplishments is as long as it is varied. Perhaps best known for playing Doctor who, he is also considered one of the finest Shakespearean actors of his generation, as you can see now in the film of his Macbeth, which was staged in 2023 with Tennant playing the lead in Kush Jumbo as Lady Macbeth. It's now streaming on Marquis tv. He has also memorably played Hamlet and Richard ii. You probably watched him as the haunted and brooding detective in the British crime drama Broadchurch and maybe even in the American adaptation called Grace Point, where he plays more or less the same role but with an American accent. David Tennant has also been his share of screen villains, including real life serial killer Dennis Nilsen in the miniseries DEZ Killgrave in the Marvel TV show Jessica Jones, one of the most repugnant characters I have ever seen, as well as the smaller but memorable lip licking Barty Crouch Jr. In Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. He also hosted the BAFTA Awards for the past two years, Great Britain's version of the Oscars this year, opening the ceremony singing the song 500 miles in a bespoke black jacket and kilt suit. And he was hilarious to watch playing a version of himself in the streaming comedy staged with Michael Sheehan. One of the few good things to come out of the COVID pandemic. David Tennant also has a podcast called David Tennant does a podcast with where you fill in the name of the guest from that episode. Often an actor, he has worked with a third season of the podcast released this year. And while we might have said, hey, David Tennant, stay in your lane, there's enough long format interview shows out there. Instead, we decided that this would be a good opportunity to have him on our long format interview show to ask him about his life and career. So, David Tennant, welcome to FRESH air.
- [02:26]
Terry Gross
Thank you very much for having me.
- [02:28]
Michael Sheen
You did two seasons of your podcast ending in 2020. But then you came back last month with the third season. Why did you come back now?
- [02:36]
Terry Gross
There was a certain sense of. There were a few people I had either meant to interview or had sort of got to know in the interim, and I thought I would have naturally interviewed them when I'd done this podcast before. So maybe now's an opportunity to kind of scoop them up. It really, as has always been the case with the podcast, it's something I've done. I don't mean to minimize it, but it's almost been a hobby, like a sideline, like a sort of thing I've done for pleasure when I've had a moment. It's never been my principal job, so it was just a sort of moment of opportunity.
- [03:14]
Michael Sheen
When you go into these interviews, like, do you have a specific agenda? Like, are you. When you're like, oh, Olivia Colman, I've always wanted to know this about her. Or do you sometimes think about things in your own career which have puzzled you? That gives you an opportunity to ask someone else who does the same work the question.
- [03:31]
Terry Gross
Yeah, there's certainly. There's definitely a bit of that. A bit of. There are some slightly odd things about being in this profession and what it sort of does to your life outside the work. That is the sort of bit you don't get trained for at a drama school. You know, one of the sort of side effects of being successful as an actor, I suppose, is that you lose an element of anonymity. And I found that personally, quite challenging when it happened to me. So I'm always quite intrigued to know how others have dealt with that or are dealing with that, or kind of characterize what that does to them and the people around them. But it's a mixture of things. You're also just. Again, if it's someone, you know, you're often interested in sort of celebrating them and wanting the world to know them and understand what's likable about them, because there's a sort of delight in celebrating that to the public, somehow. So it's always. Yes, it's always a mixture of impulses.
- [04:33]
Michael Sheen
I think, speaking about coping with being a celebrity, you tell a story that someone asked you for an autograph while you were naked in a shower at the gym.
- [04:44]
Terry Gross
Yeah, absolutely. Yes. And moments like that are quite peculiar. Yes, yes. Perhaps that's stating the obvious, but just it's quite. I'm always quite intrigued to know if other people have had similar experiences and how they. Or how they would have dealt with experiences like that. Because I think it's quite. It's a bit of a sort of club that you can't really expect any sort of sympathy for, because it's a very privileged position to be in. But it's, you know, it's a complicated one. It's one I struggle with, because you're also very aware if someone wants to have a moment's interaction with you, that they're sort of. That moment for them is representing all the work you might have done that has meant something to them. So that's a hugely. It's quite a precious moment for someone else. Whereas you might be just thinking, I'm going to be late for this appointment. That.
- [05:41]
Michael Sheen
Or you're having a bad day or something.
- [05:43]
Terry Gross
Oh, you're having a bad day. Yeah. And of course, you're not really going to make the situation better by explaining to someone why this is an inappropriate moment if. If they're not seeing that for themselves. I draw you back to the moment in the shower. That man obviously didn't understand why I was finding this peculiar and odd. So it became simpler to sort of carve a signature into what was the mulch of the piece of paper that he was now holding under a shower. And sort of. He said, thank you very much, and went on his way.
- [06:18]
Michael Sheen
Well, I wanted to talk about another version of David, David Tennant that you've played on three seasons of the show staged with Michael Sheen.
- [06:26]
Terry Gross
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [06:28]
Michael Sheen
This show largely takes place, at least it seems to. I don't know if it was filmed this way, but it's a series of zoom calls between you and Michael Sheen and your respective spouses and other people, at least in the first season. You're rehearsing this play during COVID hoping that when the lockdown is over, you'll have this thing ready to go. And of course, that doesn't. That doesn't work out so well, but. So how did this show come about?
- [06:55]
Terry Gross
It was an absolutely opportunistic pitch by a friend of. Well, actually someone that my wife was at school with, who's a film producer called Fin Glynn, who we both, George and I have worked with on various projects over the years. A few days into that first lockdown, must have been March 2020, Finn phoned us up and went, I might have an idea of something we could make while we're all locked in our houses. It was entirely his baby. He went off, got a script written. We went off and enlisted Michael Sheen and Anna Lundberg, who were locked in their house in Wales, and Between us, we just made one on spec. Simon Evans, who plays the director in the show, is also the director and also wrote the script very quickly and very cleverly. Neither Michael, Norman, Georgia, nor myself or Anna had met Simon, but we got to know him very well over Zoom and it all.
- [07:57]
Michael Sheen
He was quite funny in the show.
- [07:59]
Terry Gross
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [08:01]
Michael Sheen
I have to say that when I first heard about the show, I didn't think I was going to enjoy watching it.
- [08:06]
Terry Gross
I know it sounds desperately dull. And also, it was reflecting what we were all.
- [08:10]
Michael Sheen
We were all living our lives on Zoom. And the last thing I wanted to do was watch a TV show about Zoom. However, it quickly won me over because it's so funny. I thought we would play a scene from the show.
- [08:22]
Terry Gross
Oh, good.
- [08:23]
Michael Sheen
To set this up. Michael Sheehan is irritated with you at this point.
- [08:29]
Terry Gross
That's that track.
- [08:30]
Michael Sheen
Because originally you were gonna do this play with someone else, so he was the second choice. So you guys are doing a reading, and I think we'll also hear Simon Evans in this, and he's desperate to keep things on track. But. But Michael Sheehan's basically trying to pick a fight with you, and you have had a line where you use the word heard, and he's questioning how you're saying that word. So let's hear that.
- [08:56]
Terry Gross
What's wrong with my words? I'm struggling to believe them. There's a lot going on. There's a lot going on. Okay. Would you try something for me? Oh, sure. Happy to. Yeah. Is that okay, Simon? I'd rather be just pushed on, actually. Won't take a sec. Just give me. I want to be heard again. I want to be heard.
- [09:10]
Michael Sheen
Simon, I thought that was great.
- [09:13]
Terry Gross
You don't think he sounds cartoonish? Cartoonish? I've thought it for a while now. Absolutely not. No, I don't. David, it's with you. I want to be heard. I want to be heard. I want to be heard. Please, can we carry on? I want to be heard. I want to be heard. I want to be heard. I want to be heard. I want to be heard. I want to be heard. I want to be heard. It's got to have something. I want to be heard. It's got to have something behind it. No, it's got to come from somewhere. Just because you're mumbling doesn't make it good. I speak the same language as you. You don't have to speak. You're barely speaking, though. You're barely speaking. Whispering. I want to be heard. Let's pretend we're all human beings. Yeah. Who have ears that need to receive the vibrations. I mean, it's not a hearing thing. It's a sort of a feeling. You know, what I'm doing makes sense. And what you're doing is a sort of weird. It might sound weird to you because you won't have been used to hearing that coming out of yourself so affected, if you don't mind me saying. Very hard. Isn't it interesting, Simon, that if you spend a career in such a stilted, sort of artificial way, then hearing something that's truthful can sound affected you.
- [10:11]
Michael Sheen
That's a scene from the show staged with Michael Sheehan and our guest, David Tennant. David Tennant. There's so many times watching that show where I just laughed out loud. You guys have such a great rapport. Could you talk about the version of yourself that you're playing in this show?
- [10:29]
Terry Gross
I think we quite enjoyed playing awful versions of ourselves, so we were pretty happy to lean into that. Interestingly, Simon said that one of the things he did as he was writing it was. Listen to the episode of my podcast with Michael Sheen. Again, I don't know what that says about. I mean, Michael's this sort of rather pompous, arrogant, grand character. Rather arrogant actor. I'm a sort of whining miserableist.
- [10:58]
Michael Sheen
Well, you're described as Weasley at one point.
- [11:00]
Terry Gross
Yes, I am described as Weasley. And I don't know where that came from. But it certainly seemed to fit well enough for us to lean pretty hard into it and rather enjoy leaning into it. I mean, even listening to that, when I hear bits of it back, it does make me smile, I suppose. Cause it reminds me of a moment in time where there wasn't an awful lot going on other than homeschooling our children, which was a real fresh hell that we were all trying to catch up with. And being locked in our house. And although, you know, I didn't in many ways, I didn't dislike lockdown at all because I was very happy to be locked in my house and kept away from other human beings beyond my own family. It was certainly lovely to have that release and that creative release particularly.
- [11:45]
Michael Sheen
Well, it's so funny. Just your look on the show. You just look stupefied with boredom. Your mouth is hanging open.
- [11:55]
Terry Gross
Well, it was a particular time, wasn't it?
- [11:57]
Michael Sheen
It certainly was. One of the funny sight gags is that you keep getting caught drinking out of this mug with your face on. And they keep saying, is that you on that mug? And you deny it?
- [12:10]
Terry Gross
Yes. Lots of bits of that were sort of inspired by what was happening around us. We do happen to have a couple of mugs in my house that may or may not have my face on them, and I can't remember quite the origin of that particular gag, but it was either we were on a zoom discussing what we were going to do and I had the mug there or. Or I brought it in, maybe I suggested it one day. And anyway, it became a sort of long running gag that runs throughout three seasons, I think. Yeah.
- [12:40]
Michael Sheen
So you said you were home, you and your wife Georgia have five kids. I have two kids. And it was very tough to sort of keep them busy, keep them on their schooling during COVID What was it like with five? Like, was your house just crazy all the time?
- [12:56]
Terry Gross
We're fortunate that we have a fair amount of space and we've got a bit of outdoor space, which I think it would have killed us without that. But yes, of course, it was challenging. Our youngest was brand new. She was born towards the end of 2019. So we had a very small baby with all the pleasures and difficulties that that brings. Three who were in school, that was the real hell, the homeschooling. Just trying to be the sort of manager come teacher that keeps them on track was very, very hard. And then our eldest, his 18th birthday came three, four days after lockdown was called. So his. His big 18th birthday celebration was spent staring at us over the kitchen table. I still feel like he got slightly shortchanged there.
- [13:44]
Michael Sheen
Yeah, yeah. So I wanted to talk to you a little bit about your work doing Shakespeare. Your version of Macbeth that I think was originally staged in 2023 is now available to stream on Marquee TV. And you star with Kush Jumbo as Lady Macbeth. So this is a very minimalist staging. There's like the. The stage itself is pretty much like this white platform.
- [14:10]
Terry Gross
Yeah.
- [14:11]
Michael Sheen
And the audience is sort of around the stage. And I noticed watching the film of it that all the audience members were wearing headphones. Why was that?
- [14:23]
Terry Gross
It was one of the. Max Webster, our director, it was one of his very earliest ideas. He was very. He was fascinated with the idea of Macbeth as a soldier. He'd done a production of Henry V where they'd looked a lot into the. The actuality of being a soldier who goes to war, what that might do to you, ideas around PTSD and shell shock. And he talked to people who'd experienced that. And the idea that one would hear voices, that one would imagine things were happening that weren't and he sort of took the idea of PTSD and put it onto Macbeth, and it kind of fits remarkably well. I mean, who knows what Shakespeare's experience was with veterans from whatever wars were around at the time. But it feels like it all tracks with how modern day veterans describe some of the things they struggle with after tours of duty. And he started working with a sound designer called Gareth Fry, who'd done other shows where the audiences all wore headphones. And you can do extraordinary things then to the audience's experience, because for a start, you can whisper very quietly and you can move where that whisper is. So if you can do that for the audience, they get an understanding of perhaps what's happening inside Macbeth's very troubled brain. You could. Particularly when so much of what Macbeth says is in soliloquy, which is an address to the audience. I think it was just using a tool that was available and adding to that, you have a sort of soundscape which is happening the whole time. You're mixing in the music, you're mixing in sound effects that may or may not be live on stage in front of you, which, again, is adding to that sense of disconcertion and what's real, what isn't real. So it was a sort of conceptual way of telling this very well told story, perhaps in a slightly new, quite modern way, while still being entirely faithful to the text that Shakespeare wrote.
- [16:24]
Michael Sheen
Let's hear what one of those soliloquies sounds like. This is the famous tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow soliloquy from the end of the play. And you have just discovered that Lady Macbeth has been killed.
- [16:37]
Terry Gross
Tomorrow and tomorrow.
- [16:45]
Michael Sheen
And tomorrow.
- [16:50]
Terry Gross
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day to the last syllable of recorded. And all our yesterdays have lighted fools the way to dusty death. Out, brief candle, life's been a walking shadow, A poor player that struts and frets is out upon the stage.
- [17:32]
Michael Sheen
And.
- [17:33]
Terry Gross
That is her no more. It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
- [17:53]
Michael Sheen
Okay, so that's from the film version of Macbeth. So I'm wearing headphones now, so I feel like I'm sort of experiencing what that would have been like for the audience, because you are really whispering. And I guess I was wondering, like, if you were doing that in a more traditional theater sense and you had to project to the cheap seats, like, how do you approach that same speech in those sort of two different scenarios?
- [18:18]
Terry Gross
It's hard to know because, you know, when you prepare a production like that, you kind of know what your version of it needs to be. I've never heard that back. So it's hard. I don't know. All I'm hearing is what I would have done differently, but.
- [18:34]
Michael Sheen
What would you have done differently?
- [18:36]
Terry Gross
Oh, I don't know. You know, I think that speech in particular actually was probably out of the whole play that was sort of never quite the same twice. So you've got a version of it.
- [18:45]
Michael Sheen
And how many times did you do the play? Like 150.
- [18:48]
Terry Gross
150 or something?
- [18:49]
Michael Sheen
Yeah, a lot of it. So every time it feels different.
- [18:52]
Terry Gross
Yes. I think that speech more than any because it comes near the end. It's the, probably the most emotional moment. It's the moment where Lady Macbeth's gone. He knows it's all over. It's really just a case of how he's going to go down rather than if he will. And it was particularly in our staging. It was right up the back. I was sort of sitting very much my own. I couldn't. The lighting was such that it was. I was in a pool of darkness and I sort of tried to dare myself every night to kind of find it. But that particular moment, sort of afresh each time, obviously that's what you're always trying to do. It's easier with something like Shakespeare because the words are pretty bottomless and they, they have lots of different available meanings. And that's why actors love doing it so much because on performance 150, you can suddenly hear a line that you thought you knew inside out. You can sort of hear it in a brand new way. And that's obviously that's a thrill and also a bit frustrating because you're gonna go, oh, that's how I should have done that. Can I go back and do the first hundred performances again, please?
- [20:02]
Michael Sheen
Our guest is David Tennant. He'll be back after a short break. I'm Sam Brigger and this is FRESH AIR. 99% of the US population lives within listening range of at least one public media station. And everyone can listen to NPR podcasts free of charge. That means you get completely unpaywalled access to stories, prize winning reporting and shows that represent the voices in every corner of the country. Hear the bigger picture every day on npr. NPR informs and connects communities around the country, providing reliable information in times of crisis.
- [20:39]
Sam Brigger
Federal funding helps us fulfill our mission to create a more informed public and.
- [20:44]
Michael Sheen
Ensures that public radio remains available to everyone.
- [20:47]
Sam Brigger
Learn more about safeguarding the future of public media visit protectmypublicmedia.org on the latest bonus episode of FRESH AIR, an interview with Yoko Ono from 1989. She says that she became famous for her marriage to John Lennon, but her own avant garde art wasn't taken seriously then.
- [21:08]
Terry Gross
That was the kind of natural feeling people had, I think. Well, she's Mrs. Lennon. What's she doing anyway? I mean, she doesn't have to work.
- [21:14]
Sam Brigger
Anymore, you know, to listen. Sign up for FRESH AIR plus@plus.NPR.org FRESH AIR.
- [21:25]
Michael Sheen
Hi, this is Molly Sievi Nesburg, digital producer at FRESH air.
- [21:28]
Sam Brigger
And this is Terry Gross, host of the show.
- [21:30]
Michael Sheen
One of the things I do is.
- [21:32]
Sam Brigger
Write the weekly newsletter, and I'm a newsletter fan. I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week shows, staff recommendations and Molly Picks timely highlights from the archive. It's a fun read.
- [21:44]
Michael Sheen
It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week.
- [21:47]
Sam Brigger
An exclusive, so subscribe@whyy.org fresh air and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning.
- [21:57]
Michael Sheen
So, David, you grew up outside of Glasgow in Paisley. Your father was a Presbyterian minister. So do you remember your father's sermons? Were they fiery or more contemplative?
- [22:08]
Terry Gross
Oh, he could get quite fiery, yes. He was quite a performer, my dad. There was definitely a bit of an old ham about him. And he yes, I wasn't firing brimstone so much, but although he could get there, he had, you know, he could get a little bit he would thump the pulpit now and again. But but no, he was he was definitely a performer. And he was he was a very good preacher, actually. People would ask him to come and guest preach in various places. He was I think he was very well thought of and he was very loved. He was a very he was a very good minister. His congregation liked him and he was kind and he was patient and all the things that I guess you have to be in that job. But he was a good preacher.
- [22:54]
Michael Sheen
Yeah, well, he must have been, because for a year he served as the moderator of the General assembly of the Church of Scotland, which is basically like the highest position in the church.
- [23:07]
Terry Gross
The highest position, but on a revolving yearly basis because there's a the Church of Scotland is built on the idea that there should be no hierarchy. So you take a turn and you step back again.
- [23:18]
Michael Sheen
He also had a TV show called that's the Spirit that he co hosted. What was that show like? Did you ever go to the set?
- [23:25]
Terry Gross
I did, actually, yes. It was on Scottish television. But yes, he did. On a Sunday afternoon in Scotland, you could see My dad. And that's the spirit. It was a sort of religious magazine program. So he would, you know, he would go and meet a community project. He would do a little bit to camera where he gave a little message for the day. He'd do interviews with people who were doing interesting or important things in the world of, I suppose, divinity or outreach or whatever it was. But, yeah, he did that for quite a few years. And I remember sitting off camera and watching it happen a couple of times.
- [24:03]
Michael Sheen
Yeah, I have a hard time believing the story, but it's been told many times, so.
- [24:07]
Terry Gross
Oh, come on, what's this?
- [24:09]
Michael Sheen
Well, at the age of three, you told your family that you wanted to be an actor because you wanted to play Doctor who.
- [24:18]
Terry Gross
Which is the bit you find most implausible about that story? Because I have thoughts.
- [24:22]
Michael Sheen
Well, first of all, just the wish fulfillment that you were able to achieve in your adulthood playing one of the most famous Doctor who's. But also, did you, at the age of three, understand that Dr. Who was an actor? Did you want to act as Doctor who? Did you want to be Doctor who?
- [24:43]
Terry Gross
Like, this is the bit that now, having had my own children, I can think three. Really? Could I have been three? Because it does feel like quite a complicated thought process, doesn't it? But. But I. I can date it because I, you know, this was in the times before home video recorders, so I know that I watched John Pertwee turn into Tom Baker on Doctor who, and I can date it. And it's 1974, so I was 3 years old. Maybe they repeated it like a year later. Sometimes they did that. So maybe I was four. But I know that it was then, and I know that that led to a conversation with my parents, and you're absolutely right that it was a conversation where I learned what the difference between a character in a television program and an actor was. But in that moment, I understood what that concept was and decided that's what I wanted to do. So despite how implausible it seems, I know that it's true.
- [25:41]
Michael Sheen
Do you remember what was so captivating about the show to you?
- [25:45]
Terry Gross
Something about that show and the combination of elements. Certainly that central character always fascinated me. I just thought he was brilliant. I just thought he was cool, he was clever. He wasn't. He sort of. He was dressed in sort of brilliant, cool, mad clothes, but he looked like a normal human. And I think that was quite important to me as a fairly geeky young child. I didn't imagine I could ever aspire to be Superman or The Incredible Hulk, or, you know, I was sort of quite weedy and I wore glasses and I had a terrible haircut. So all those things still felt possible in the world of the Doctor. There was something about that character that I could be. I also loved. It's a brilliantly constructed show in that you don't know where they're gonna land. Each time. Every time that the TARDIS lands, where is it? What's the mystery? There's a whole new set of characters to get. There's a whole. And the monsters, what's the monster gonna be this week? What's gonna come around that corner? And how scary is it gonna be? And what a thrill all that was. So it was. I. No, it was. I was obsessional about it.
- [27:02]
Michael Sheen
So where I grew up, you couldn't just get Doctor who on the 13 channels that we had, but I don't know if televisions were the same.
- [27:12]
Terry Gross
Well, you see, 13 channels, like you were starved. I mean, in school, three channels. We had three.
- [27:17]
Michael Sheen
But there was this other dial where you could. It was kind of like a radio dial where you could dial in, like farther television stations. And sometimes I could dial in, like the out of state public television show that did have Doctor who. And the things that I remember about it was first that it was really scary, like the monsters were scary and the theme music terrified me. But then the thing that I also noticed was, like, sometimes I would notice how cheaply made the show was like, why are all these sci fi futuristic characters wearing clothes that look like they were borrowed from like Masterpiece Theater? And then in all of these science fiction or futuristic sets, there are always these drapes everywhere, like blocking off sections of the stage. I don't know. So those were my early memories of it.
- [28:07]
Terry Gross
I listen, all of those memories are very accurate, I think. I don't think there's anything wrong with any of those observations you make. And I think I was aware of all that too, but I still either forgave it or reveled in it, its shortcomings, because actually the writing, they were incredibly well written. And those central performances. I remember Tom Baker, who played the Doctor through most of my early childhood. It was a really magnificent performance. He was a properly charismatic, mercurial, funny, funny, heroic. It was a brilliant performance. As a piece of sort of mad acting, it was a wonder to behold. And that just scooped me up. How thrilling that you tuned in, you tuned your TV set to get so slightly illicit channels. It must have felt. It must have felt like you discovered wonderful secrets.
- [28:57]
Michael Sheen
It did feel that way, definitely, yeah. Well, let's hear you from Doctor who. This is from your first big scene. You've just been regenerated. This would happen as sort of like the character would be reincarnated, which was a convenient way to have new actors play this role. And so you're reintroducing yourself to your traveling companion, played by Billy Piper and some other characters. And you're also surrounded by some pretty tough looking aliens. Let's hear this.
- [29:28]
Terry Gross
First things first, be honest. How do I look? Um, different. Good different or bad different? Just different. Am I ginger? No, you're just sort of brown. I wanted to be ginger. Ginger? I've never been ginger. And you roast Tyler Fell or good you were. You gave up on me. Ooh, that's rude. Is that sort of man I am now? Am I rude? Rude and not ginger? If I might interrupt. Yes, sorry. Hello, big fella. Who exactly are you? Well, that's the question. I demand to know who you are. I don't know. See, that's the thing. I'm a Doctor, but beyond that, I. I just don't know. I literally do not know who I am. It's all untested. Am I funny? Am I sarcastic?
- [30:21]
David Tennant
Sexy?
- [30:22]
Terry Gross
Right. Or misery? Life and soul. Right handed, left handed. A gambler, a fighter, a coward, a traitor, a liar, a nervous wreck. I mean, judging by the evidence, I've certainly got a goal.
- [30:33]
Michael Sheen
That's our guest, David Tennant as Doctor who in his first big scene. So you're asking, who am I? There. One of the things that I really liked about your portrayal of, of the Doctor was this, like, unbridled enthusiasm that you brought to the character. But, you know, here you are at this point. You've been classically trained, you went to the Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Dance, and now you're playing this important British pop figure. How did all of the things that you had learned and the ways that you've trained help you sort of embody this role?
- [31:08]
Terry Gross
That's a very good question. I don't know. I mean, it's one of those parts that has a lot of cultural baggage about it, but it also the whole. The idea of regeneration, where one actor takes over from the next. You're given a bit of a blank sheet. The Doctor has certain immovable truths about them, but you're not expected to do what the last one did. You're expected to bring your own version of it. You just have to find yourself in it, I suppose. You just have to kind of chuck yourself at it and see what you get. And of course, it was written by Russell T. Davis, who's one of the great television writers of our time, and wrote it with sort of a bit like himself. I mean, Russell has a wonderful gift of the gab about him. He can talk and he's funny and he's quick and he's probably the cleverest person in most rooms, and that's kind of how he writes the Doctor. So if you just kind of look to plug into that energy, filter it through yourself, and hope that that produces something that's kind of endearing and not smug and annoying. Probably some people did find it smug and annoying, but hopefully most people found it charming and funny. I think it's important that the Doctor is funny because he uses wit to undermine some of those kind of worst creatures that the universe can throw at him. That's part of. That's part of what's glorious about that character, is that he can be funny in times of crisis. And that's his cool. He's very uncool in many ways, but he's got that swagger, that ability to undermine everything with a gag or with a twinkle. So I didn't ponder all that. It's quite interesting listening back to that through headphones now. It feels quite green and quite squeaky to me.
- [33:00]
Michael Sheen
Well, it's pretty remarkable how much the show has given you. Again, like, it's sort of this great wish fulfillment. You also met your wife Georgia on the show. She actually played your daughter in an episode.
- [33:12]
Terry Gross
Yes, but it's. Listen, time is very relative when you're a Time Lord and she's a little bit younger than me. She's not that much younger than me.
- [33:21]
Michael Sheen
She's an adult character in the.
- [33:22]
Terry Gross
She's an adult character. Yes, exactly.
- [33:25]
Michael Sheen
And Georgia's father, your father in law, was a different incarnation of Doctor who, wasn't.
- [33:31]
Terry Gross
That's right. Yeah. He was number five. I mean, I watched him as a kid. He became the Doctor when I was about 11. So he was absolutely someone that I drew pictures of and sketchbooks. Yeah. That has just added to how odd the whole thing is that I've ended up being part of the show that I grew up obsessed with.
- [33:50]
Michael Sheen
Our guest is actor David Tennant. More after a short break. This is FRESH air.
- [33:55]
Terry Gross
Since Donald Trump took office in January, a lot has happened. The White House Budget Office ordered a.
- [34:00]
Michael Sheen
Pause on all federal grants and loans.
- [34:02]
Terry Gross
The impact of the. The Trump administration's tariffs is already being felt in President Trump's efforts to radically.
- [34:09]
Sam Brigger
Remake the federal government.
- [34:11]
Terry Gross
The NPR Politics Podcast covers it all.
- [34:13]
Michael Sheen
Keep up with what's happening in Washington and beyond with the NPR Politics Podcast.
- [34:18]
Terry Gross
Listen.
- [34:18]
Sam Brigger
Every day, psychologist Dolly Chug studies the lengths we will go to protect the way we see ourselves.
- [34:26]
Michael Sheen
We care about whether we're seen as a good person, whether others see us as a good person and whether we feel like good people.
- [34:35]
Sam Brigger
Ideas about our self image. That's on the TED Radio Hour podcast from npr.
- [34:43]
Terry Gross
Having news at your fingertips is great.
- [34:45]
Michael Sheen
But sometimes you need an escape and.
- [34:49]
Terry Gross
That'S where Short wave comes in. We're a joy filled science podcast driven by wonder and curiosity that will get.
- [34:54]
Michael Sheen
You out of your head and in.
- [34:56]
Terry Gross
Touch with the world around you.
- [34:58]
Sam Brigger
Listen now to Short Wave, the science podcast from npr.
- [35:07]
Michael Sheen
You've also played a bunch of villains in your career, and one that particularly stays with me is the supervillain Kilgrave from the Marvel TV show Jessica Jones. And Kilgrave basically can have people do whatever he wants. He can just command them. He abuses this ability and very sadistic ways, taking away consent from women, like telling people, like, if I'm late, carve your face off. Like, and you know, this character is charmless and like, really repugnant. Can you talk about how you found a way to play him?
- [35:43]
Terry Gross
You have to just go back to what's written. And I think why Jessica Jones as a series worked so well is because Melissa Rosenberg, who was the showrunner and her team of writers did something really quite remarkable. I think it was a superhero show. Jessica, Part of the Marvel Universe. Kilgrave was known in the comic books as the Purple Man. And he's a character in his first appearance, wears a purple jumpsuit and is entirely purple, but has this ability that whatever he says, people have to obey him. So if he tells them to lie down in the street, they lie down in the street, you know. And what could be quite a sort of simplistic, rather, rather sort of schlocky comic book idea in the hands of the writers that we had became, as you have hinted, it became a story about consent and it became a story about emotional abuse and psychological abuse. But it was also looking into what had caused Kilgrave to be this way. And if, if you had that ability, what would that do to your own psychology? So, yes, he's a monster and he does awful things and there's nothing, there's very little redeemable about him. But I think we were also let in to understand that with that ability all his life, how could he not be damaged by that when he doesn't know if somebody does something because they want to or because he's told them to, how could he interact as a rational human being with anyone? And I think that was all there in the writing. So they created something really quite adult, quite difficult at times, quite complicated, but also manages, whilst absolutely being a superhero show, it manages not to be blithe or glib about any of the things that it examines. And it's quite a tough watch at times. But I just felt very lucky that I ended up in that Marvel show because I think it really was an extraordinary piece of work and that, you know, I was just a tiny part of that.
- [37:47]
Michael Sheen
When you're playing these roles that are like terrible people, like real life serial killers or these villains, like, do you have to sort of like shrug them off at the end of the day or else you'll take them home with you?
- [37:58]
Terry Gross
Not really. Not consciously. I think when I put the script down, I sort of. I leave it at work. But you'd probably have to ask Georgia. I mean, you probably have to ask the people that have to live through a project with you. Yeah, yeah. Because I suppose things do sometimes kind of go in funny directions. There have been a couple of times when Georgia said, oh, I'm glad that's over. I didn't always like that version of you that you brought home. I mean, I don't come home as Kilgrave, but I suppose, you know, there is an element of. It's all pretend, but if you're pretending particularly dark stuff, you are sort of trying to trick your brain into behaving in the ways that you might behave if certain awful things were happening. And that probably does have something of a. Of a cost on your real life. But I've never felt it weighing particularly heavily, I don't think. But as I say, it's probably. That's probably a sort of side interview with Georgia. Yeah, yeah.
- [39:03]
Michael Sheen
In the show staged, Michael Sheehan is often sort of poking fun. A little bit of you being Scottish and you guys talk about haggis and are there sort of stereotypical things about being a Scot that you sort of lean into besides wearing a kilt?
- [39:19]
Terry Gross
It's funny, when I lived in Scotland, I had no interest in being Scottish, maybe because it was so ubiquitous. But when you're not there anymore, you do become a sort of unofficial ambassador for all things Scottish. And I do enjoy that greatly. I do love a bit of haggis. And it's. Yeah, there's, there's, of course, there's something self consciously pleasing about wearing a kilt at the baftas and holding on to a bit of Scottishness. And I'm sort of now patriotic and proud of Scotland in a way that I never really appreciated when I was when I was there. I love being Scottish. It's great. It gives you a it gives you a calling card. It gives you a sense of self, for sure.
- [40:01]
Michael Sheen
Well, David Tennant, it's been a real pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much for coming on FRESH air.
- [40:06]
Terry Gross
Thanks for having me. It's been an absolute delight.
- [40:09]
Sam Brigger
David Tennant spoke with FRESH air's Sam Brigger. Tennant's podcast called David Tennant Does a Podcast with is now in its third season. After we take a short break, our TV critic David Biancooli will review the new series Dying for Sex, starring Michelle Williams. This is FRESH AIR.
- [40:28]
Michael Sheen
When Malcolm Gladwell presented NPR's Throughline podcast with a Peabody Award, he praised it for its historical and moral clarity. On Throughline, we take you back in time to the origins of what's in the news, like presidential power, aging and evangelicalism. Time travel with us every week on the Throughline podcast from NPR at Planet Money. We'll take you from a race to make rum in the Caribbean. Our rum from a quality standpoint, is.
- [40:58]
Terry Gross
The best in the world, to the.
- [40:59]
Michael Sheen
Labs dreaming up the most advanced microchips.
- [41:02]
Terry Gross
It's very rare for people to go inside to the back rooms of New York's Diamond District. What you looking for? The stupid guy here, they're all smart.
- [41:10]
Michael Sheen
Don't worry about Planet Money from npr.
- [41:12]
Terry Gross
We go to the Story and take.
- [41:14]
Michael Sheen
You along with us wherever you get your podcasts.
- [41:17]
Sam Brigger
Dying for Sex is a new FX on Hulu production with all eight episodes now streaming. It stars Michelle Williams from the Fabelmans and Blue Valentine as a woman whose cancer returns after a period of dormancy. It leads her on a quest to explore her sexual drive and passions in a new way. Dying for Sex is based on a real story and inspired by a podcast of the same name. Our TV critic Diva Biancooli says the Hulu series ends up being much deeper and more emotionally resonant than he expected. Here's his review.
- [41:51]
David Tennant
Dying for Sex, the new FX on Hulu miniseries now streaming in its entirety, has a basic premise that reminded me a bit of Breaking Bad. The main character gets a diagnosis of terminal cancer and reacts in ways that are both unexpected and uncharacteristic. With Walter White in Breaking Bad, the high school science teacher played by Bryan Cranston. He opts to use his knowledge of chemistry to make and sell crystal meth in order to provide a nest egg for the family he'll soon leave behind. With Molly, the long married woman played by Michelle Williams in Dying for Sex, she decides to embark on a quest to find a level of sexual satisfaction she's not yet experienced. Walter is breaking bad. Molly, at first glance, is breaking sexy. But though that skeletal outline makes Dying for Sex sound like a titillating black comedy, it's more than that. I can't stress enough how much this new series got to me. Yes, some of the sexual encounters and misadventures are very funny, but the emotions and characters running throughout this series are so real and often so raw that though I laughed a lot at what I was watching, I also choked up a lot and really became caught up in the emotional lives of the show's characters. All of them. Dying for Sex is inspired by the story of a woman named Molly, who originally told her story in a 2020 podcast co hosted by her best friend, Nikki. The relationship between Molly and Nikki is central to the miniseries from the very start, when Nikki sees Molly sitting outside a bodega looking sad and asks her what's wrong. Molly is played by Michelle Williams. Nikki is played by Jenny Slate.
- [43:39]
Terry Gross
You know how I had that pain in my hip that wouldn't go away? Uh huh. It's cancer. It's back.
- [43:55]
Michael Sheen
But you.
- [43:58]
Terry Gross
It's been two years. I know you did everything that the doctor said and you took all the drugs and she was chill.
- [44:07]
Michael Sheen
I don't want to die just when.
- [44:08]
Terry Gross
I'm getting used to my new boobs. You're not gonna die. I am, actually. It metastasized to my bones. It's incurable.
- [44:21]
David Tennant
Molly's husband, Steve, played by Jay Duplass, has been afraid to be intimate with her since her initial breast cancer diagnosis. Their marriage counseling sessions leave her unsatisfied, but a session with a newly assigned palliative care counselor leaves her encouraged to recognize and explore her deeper sexual feelings wherever they might lead. After a very long and bad day, she returns to her apartment and sees an unfamiliar neighbor guy. That's the way he's credited as Neighbor Guy, doing a sloppy job of putting his garbage down the hallway's garbage chute. She reacts forcefully and we hear her inner thoughts, noting that she likes being dominant. And Neighbor Guy, played by Rob Delaney, seems to like her dominance too.
- [45:08]
Terry Gross
Look, you think you can just make a mess and expect that other people will clean it up? Yeah. Pick it up.
- [45:28]
Sam Brigger
Oh my God.
- [45:31]
Terry Gross
You're doing what I say now say I'm disgusting. I'm disgusting.
- [45:48]
David Tennant
After that scene, you may think you have a good idea of where Dying for Sex is going. I thought I did, but I was really, really wrong. The reason for Molly's formerly closed off attitudes towards sex have to do with a childhood trauma which is revealed slowly and emotionally. And all of the characters surrounding Molly, even if they might appear easy to pigeonhole at first, will surprise you at some point. That goes for her friends and family, including her long estranged mother, played perfectly by Cissy Spacek. But it also goes for the caregivers, including David raiche as Molly's Dr. Esko, Julie as her care counselor and Paula Pell as an oddly cheerful hospice nurse. Hulu's Dying for Sex is co created by Kim Rosenstock and Elizabeth Merriweather, both of whom come from the sitcom New Girl. They make this miniseries a TV journey you're not likely to forget. But the actors are most responsible for both the laughs and the tears here. Jenny Slate as the best friend, Rob Delaney as the neighbor and Cissy Spacek as the guilt ridden mom. All of them create fully dimensional, vulnerable characters and are outstanding. And all of them revolve like planets around Michelle Williams as Molly, whose acting in Dying for Sex is so human and so touching it's hard to describe. I've been impressed and surprised by the depth of her acting several times before, including when she played Marilyn Monroe in My Week With Marilyn and the mother in the Fablemans and even Gwen Verdon in FX's Fosse Verdon series. But in Dying for Sex, Michelle Williams floored me. Her portrayal, like the series, is at times broadly and brilliantly comic, but also is so vivid and so involving it may bring you to tears.
- [47:40]
Sam Brigger
Also, David Biancooli is a professor of television studies at Rowan University. He reviewed Dying for Sex. It's streaming on Hulu tomorrow on FRESH air, some answers to the questions many Democrats and Republicans are still asking how Trump beat Biden Harris and the odds in the wildest campaign in history. That's the subtitle of the new book Uncharted by Tomorrow's guest, Chris Whipple. One of his previous books is about White House chiefs of staff, so we'll also talk about President Trump's. I hope you'll join us to keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram nprfreshair. FRESH air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Bodonato, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly CV Nesper. Roberto Shorrock directs the show. Our co host is Tanya Mosley. Terrence I'm Terry Gross. These days there is a lot of news. It can be hard to keep up with what it means for you, your.
- [49:05]
Terry Gross
Family and your community.
- [49:07]
Sam Brigger
Consider this from NPR is a podcast that helps you make sense of the news. Six days a week, we bring you a deep dive on a story and provide the context, backstory and analysis you need to understand our rapidly changing world. Listen to the Consider this podcast from npr. Shortwave thinks of science as an invisible force showing up in your everyday life, powering the food you eat, the medicine you use, the tech in your pocket. Science is approachable because it's already part of your life. Come explore these connections on the Short Wave podcast from npr.
- [49:46]
Michael Sheen
Want to know what's happening in the world? Listen to the State of the World podcast. Every weekday, we bring you important stories from around the globe. In just a few minutes, you might hear how democracy is holding up in South Korea or meet Indian monkeys that.
- [50:00]
Terry Gross
Have turned to crime.
- [50:02]
Michael Sheen
We don't go around the world. We're already there. Listen to the State of the World podcast from NPR.