Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon

Summary

Podcast Summary: Fresh Air – "Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon"

Episode Overview Released on February 8, 2025, NPR's Fresh Air presents a compelling episode titled "Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon." Hosted by Tonya Moseley, this episode delves into two distinct yet gripping narratives: Ariana Grande's transformative role in the Oscar-nominated musical film Wicked and author Brittany Newell's exploration of San Francisco's BDSM underworld in her novel Softcore. Additionally, literary critic Maureen Corrigan offers insightful reviews of seminal New York City literature.

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Section 1: Ariana Grande on Her Role in Wicked

Introduction to the Role Ariana Grande joins Tonya Moseley to discuss her groundbreaking portrayal of Galinda in Wicked: The Musical Film, a prequel to the classic The Wizard of Oz. The film has rapidly become a cultural phenomenon, earning 10 Academy Award nominations, including Best Supporting Actress for Grande.

Childhood Connection and Inspiration Grande shares a personal connection to the Wicked musical, recounting her first experience watching it on Broadway at the age of ten. She credits this early exposure to theater for shaping her artistic journey.

Ariana Grande [00:58]: "We're aliens. We are the best kind of nerd, by the way, and some of us are so lucky to have it."

Auditioning Process and Vocal Training Discussing the rigorous audition process, Grande reveals she auditioned three times, initially performing for both Galinda and Elphaba. She underwent extensive vocal training with her coach, Eric Vitro, to adapt her voice to a coloratura soprano suitable for the role.

Ariana Grande [07:14]: "I had started training with my vocal coach, Eric Vitro, three months before my first audition to train my voice to sing in a coloratura soprano placement."

Character Development and Themes Grande delves into the nuanced relationship between Galinda and Elphaba, highlighting themes of sisterhood, unconditional love, and the complexity of good versus evil. She emphasizes how both characters embody traits present in all individuals, making the story resonate universally.

Ariana Grande [15:36]: "I think people, pieces of both of these women exist within all of us. And I think that's what makes it hit home the way that it does."

Behind-the-Scenes Insights Grande provides a behind-the-scenes look at the film's production, including the decision to perform live vocals on set to preserve authenticity. She praises her co-star Cynthia Erivo, highlighting the seamless chemistry and mutual respect between them.

Ariana Grande [17:05]: "She's the best in the whole world. She really is, I swear."

Cultural Impact and Audience Reception Grande reflects on the film's role in inspiring a new generation of theater enthusiasts and its accessibility to a broader audience through cinema. She expresses gratitude for the community's positive reception and the film's ability to foster a sense of belonging among viewers.

Ariana Grande [26:11]: "It's an incredible privilege to be a part of this version of it and to have it be so accessible to so many people."

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Section 2: Maureen Corrigan's Book Reviews

Review of This Beautiful, Ridiculous City by Kay Sohini Literary critic Maureen Corrigan reviews Kay Sohini's graphic memoir, which narrates her journey from the suburbs of Calcutta to the vibrant streets of New York City. Corrigan praises Sohini's ability to intertwine personal growth with a rich tapestry of New York's literary canon.

Maureen Corrigan [32:12]: "Sohini tells a vivid, multi-dimensional New York story of her own."

Review of A Town Without Time by Gay Talese Corrigan explores Gay Talese's collection of essays that capture the essence of New York through meticulous journalism. Highlighting Talese's knack for uncovering the overlooked facets of the city, Corrigan underscores the timeless relevance of his work.

Maureen Corrigan [32:45]: "Talese reminds us that New York is already riddled with ghosts, many of them tough-talking and hard-drinking."

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Section 3: Brittany Newell on Softcore

Introduction to Softcore Author Brittany Newell discusses her novel Softcore, a provocative exploration of San Francisco's dive bars, strip clubs, and BDSM dungeons. Newell draws from her personal experience as a professional dominatrix to craft a narrative that delves into the complexities of desire, loneliness, and human connection.

Character Analysis: Ruth/Baby Blue Newell introduces Ruth, the protagonist known as Baby Blue, a stripper who becomes a dominatrix following her ex-boyfriend's disappearance. Ruth's journey reflects themes of self-discovery and the search for meaning amidst chaos.

Brittany Newell [35:52]: "Ruth is lonely and it actually has made me reflect a lot on my writing in general."

Balancing Fiction and Reality Addressing questions about the autobiographical elements of Softcore, Newell clarifies that while the novel is fictional, it incorporates subtle influences from her real-life experiences and observations within the BDSM community.

Brittany Newell [36:07]: "I think it's a completely valid question. And I catch myself doing it as a reader, too."

Empathy and Non-Judgment in Dominatrix Work Newell emphasizes the importance of empathy and non-judgment in her role as a dominatrix, paralleling her skills as a writer. She discusses the emotional labor involved in maintaining boundaries while deeply understanding her clients' desires and vulnerabilities.

Brittany Newell [46:47]: "What makes a good writer is also what makes a good dominatrix, which is empathy and curiosity and bravery."

Challenges and Ethical Considerations The conversation touches on the psychological demands of dominatrix work, including the emotional toll and the necessity of maintaining professional boundaries. Newell advocates for starting such work at a mature age to better handle its complexities.

Brittany Newell [49:05]: "I think how taxing it can be on your psychic state is something that, yeah, you should take care of yourself in that way."

Future Directions and Personal Growth Newell reflects on her transition from academia to sex work, driven by her desire for autonomy and the allure of uncovering hidden human stories. She underscores the transformative power of her work and its impact on her personal and professional life.

Brittany Newell [41:43]: "I had the bizarre and, like, gorgeous but also very weird experience of publishing my book right when I graduated."

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Closing Thoughts

The Fresh Air episode masterfully intertwines the luminous journey of Ariana Grande's ascent into acting with the raw, unfiltered exploration of human desires in Brittany Newell's Softcore. Through engaging interviews and insightful reviews, Tonya Moseley presents a multifaceted look at contemporary arts and issues, highlighting personal growth, societal themes, and the intricate dance between public perception and personal authenticity.

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Notable Quotes

• Ariana Grande [07:14]: "I had started training with my vocal coach, Eric Vitro, three months before my first audition to train my voice to sing in a coloratura soprano placement."

• Ariana Grande [15:36]: "I think people, pieces of both of these women exist within all of us. And I think that's what makes it hit home the way that it does."

• Brittany Newell [36:07]: "I think the ways that it is nonfictional are sort of subtler than one might realize."

• Brittany Newell [41:43]: "I had the bizarre and, like, gorgeous but also very weird experience of publishing my book right when I graduated."

• Maureen Corrigan [32:12]: "Sohini tells a vivid, multi-dimensional New York story of her own."

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Conclusion This Fresh Air episode serves as a rich tapestry of modern storytelling, blending celebrity insights with profound literary critiques. Listeners are offered a deep dive into the transformative power of art and the hidden worlds that shape our understanding of self and society.

Transcript

[Capella University]

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[Tonya Moseley]

Edu from WHYY in Philadelphia. This is FRESH AIR weekend. I'm Tonya Moseley. Today, Ariana Grande joins me to talk about the cultural phenomenon of Wicket. She she's nominated for an Oscar for best supporting actress in the musical film where she stars as Galinda, set years before the wizard of Oz. Grande and I talk about some of the underlying messages in the film about belonging and good versus evil. And she says growing up performing, basically being a theater nerd actually prepared her for this role.

[Ariana Grande]

Like we're on our own planet, right? We are aliens. We are the best kind of nerd, by the way, and some of us are so lucky to have it.

[Tonya Moseley]

Also, writer and dominatrix Brittany Newell joins us to talk about her new novel, Softcore, which explores the underworld of San Francisco's dive bar, strip clubs and BDSM dungeons. And Maureen Corrigan reviews two quintessential New York City books. That's coming up on FRESH AIR weekend.

[Capella University]

This message comes from Schwab. At Schwab, how you invest is your choice, not theirs. That's why when it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices. You can invest and trade on your own, plus get advice and more comprehensive wealth solutions to help meet your unique needs. With award winning service, low costs and transparent advice, you can manage your wealth your way at Schwab. Visit schwab.com to learn more. This message comes from NPR sponsor SATVA Founder and CEO Ron Rutson shares the experience they hope to create in their viewing rooms.

[Tonya Moseley]

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[Ron Rutson]

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[Tonya Moseley]

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[Capella University]

To learn more, go to saatva.com NPR.

[Brittany Newell]

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[Tonya Moseley]

Prevention this is FRESH AIR WEEKEND. I'm Tonya Moseley. The musical Wicket is a top contender at this year's Academy Awards with 10 Oscar nominations, including best supporting actress for my guest today, Ariana Grande. Wicked has become somewhat of a cultural phenomenon, introducing new layers of the story of Oz that really challenge audiences to look beyond surface appearances and question preconceived notions of good and evil. Ariana Grande stars as the privileged and popular Galinda who develops a friendship with Elphaba, played by Cynthia Erivo, born with green skin and ostracized by society. As a prequel to the wizard of Oz, the film is set years before Dorothy arrives in Oz, and it charts the transformations of Elphaba into the the Wicked Witch of the west and Galinda into Glinda the Good. Here's Grande as Galinda singing Popular a song that gives insights into her character Elfie.

[Ariana Grande]

Now that we're friends, I've decided to make you my new project. Oh, you really don't have to do that. I know. That's what makes me so nice. Whenever I see someone less fortunate than I and let's face it, right who isn't less fortunate than I My tender heart tends to start to bleed and when someone needs a makeover I simply have to take over I know I know exactly what they need and even in your case though it's the toughest case I've yet to face don't worry, I'm determined to succeed follow my leading yes, indeed you will be popular you're gonna be popular I'll teach you the proper ploys when you talk to boys the waves jubilers flows I'll show you what shoes to wear how to fix your hair everything that really counts to be popular I'll help you be popular your'll hang with the right cohorts you'll be good at sports know the slang you've got to know so let's start cause you've got an awfully long way to go.

[Tonya Moseley]

Ariana Grande says that from the moment she first saw the musical on Broadway at 10 years old, her life was divided into two chapters, before Wicked and after True. This is true.

[Ariana Grande]

This is very true.

[Tonya Moseley]

Ariana Grande, welcome to FRESH air.

[Ariana Grande]

Thank you, Tanya, for having me. Thank you so much.

[Tonya Moseley]

You know, this movie has become a cultural phenomenon. And it's so interesting how the subtext really speaks to the time period that we're in. It's a timeless story, but it also.

[Ariana Grande]

Is, like, very timely.

[Tonya Moseley]

Yeah, very. You first saw Wicked on Broadway at 10.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes, I was 10 years old, and I got to see the original Broadway cast with Kristin Chenoweth and Idina Menzel and Nora, Leo Butz and Chris Fitzgerald, and it was very life changing.

[Tonya Moseley]

What was it about Wicked? Because I know that you were somewhat of a theater kid, you were seeing lots of musicals, but this one in particular really spoke to you.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes, I mean, I think, you know, I was so young, of course I loved the music, I loved the comedy. I remember Glinda's impact on the audience and that infectious laughter and how it made me feel and everyone around me. I think that was just, like, so impactful. But also the themes of sisterhood. I don't think I ever saw a show or anything at that point that revolved around these two women who are so different, learning each other and really falling in love with each other through their differences and kind of learning how to protect and accept and celebrate each other, even when it meant that they disagreed. It was just kind of like this embodiment of, like, true unconditional love and friendship in a way that I hadn't seen portrayed in a story before. And I think it really spoke to me.

[Tonya Moseley]

Is it true that you auditioned five times?

[Ariana Grande]

Okay, so I auditioned three times. My first audition, I sang actually for both roles. Even though I came in In All Pink, I knew I was Glinda. I knew that was what I was supposed to be doing. I think they just asked me to sing for both parts of Elphaba and for both. For both witches. So I was, of course, down to do whatever was asked of me, of course. And I had started training with my vocal coach, Eric Vitro, three months before my first audition to train my voice to sing in a coloratura soprano placement, which is quite different from what I usually do. Even though my voice naturally sits in a high register, it's a totally different style of singing. And, you know, though I do use my falsetto quite often in pop music, it's just a completely different style, tone, vibrato sound. And usually I'm using in pop music either my, like, mixee belt or my whistle register. So there's this big gap in between those two, which is where Glinda kind of lives and where that operatic sound needed to be strengthened and found in my voice and trained to become authentic sounding. It really required a lot of work. And what was really fun and interesting about that was that I went to get my. My vocal cords checked at the beginning of my training process to see if I could see A difference and like the muscles, like just how the shape is and you can actually track the. The chords changing shape. While I was training and stuff like that, it's. It's really. I'm a nerd for that kind of stuff. But the training was extensive and it was really thrilling to follow the progress. And so for my first audition, I sang no One Mourns the Wicked and popular, but I also sang the Wizard 9 Defying Gravity. But it was very clear what I was. And if in case it wasn't clear, I was in all pink and I had a pink mug and I had a pink. Everything was very Glinda fied. Just sending the subliminal message. And then I was called back for Glinda and I sang more Glinda songs. So that was my second audition and that was really thrilling. And I got to do my scenes with the casting associate Tiffany Little from Bernie Telsey's office. And she was masked. Cause this was during COVID like kind of a little wave of it at the tail end of COVID But the best thing was feeling that I could tell under her mask that she was giggling because her eyes were smiling.

[Tonya Moseley]

You could see the smile in her.

[Ariana Grande]

Eyes and I could feel it. And it was just really special. And then my final callback was a chemistry test with two different Elphabas. It was three hours long and they were so beautiful and wonderful. But surprisingly, neither one of them was Cynthia. So we didn't actually get to chemistry test.

[Tonya Moseley]

Oh my gosh. I want to play a little bit from the film so that folks can get an idea of your voice training that you're talking about. I mean, you are known for your four octave range, but your acting is on full display in the film. But as you mentioned, like, you really had to get your voice in shape for this. And so let's play a little bit of no One Mourns the Wicked.

[Maureen Corrigan]

Look, it's Glinda.

[Ariana Grande]

Let us, let us be glad Let us be grateful Let us rejoicify that goodness could subdue the wicked workings of you now isn't it nice to know that God will conquer evil the truth we all believe are for you no one mourns the wicked.

[Tonya Moseley]

That was my guest Ariana Grande singing no One Mourns the Wicked from the musical Wicked. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR weekend.

[Capella University]

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[Tonya Moseley]

I want to play another pivotal scene from the film. It's when your character Galinda and Elphaba first meet. And Elphaba has arrived at school and everyone reacts. They're really startled by the color of her skin, which is green. The interaction the two of you have showcases your differences because Elphaba is strong and smart and you're kind of silly and a little bit superficial. Let's listen.

[Ron Rutson]

What?

[Ariana Grande]

What are you staring at? Do I have something in my teeth? No, it's just. You're green. I am fine. Let's get this over with. No, I am not seasick. No, I did not eat grass as a child. And yes, I've always been green. Well, I for one am so sorry that you have been forced to live with this. Is that so? Yes. And it is my intention to major in sorcery. So if at some point you wanted to address the problem. Problem? Perhaps I could help.

[Tonya Moseley]

She's so good.

[Ariana Grande]

We love you. All right. Offering to help someone that you don't know with skills that you don't have. I'm sure everyone is duly impressed. I could care less what others think. Couldn't what? You couldn't care less what other people think. Though I. I doubt that.

[Tonya Moseley]

That was my guest, Ariana Grande, starring as Galinda in the musical film Wicked. Ariana Galinda is kind of like the foil for Elphaba. She represents conformity and societal expectations. While Elphaba embodies this rebellious. You know, she's trying to be an individual. She's kind of forced to be because she is seen as such. Are there elements of both of them? It's so interesting that you came prepared to audition for both of them, knowing that you were there for one. But do you see elements of yourself in Both characters or either of the characters.

[Ariana Grande]

It's funny because I feel like that is why Wicked is what it is. I think that's why people respond to it the way that they do. Because I think people, pieces of both of these women exist within all of us. And I think that's what makes it hit home the way that it does and touch people the way that it does. Because I think everyone can identify a time in their life where they felt like Elphaba at the center of the dance floor at the Asda's ballroom while everyone is circled around her, laughing or making her feel othered. Everyone, I think, has felt that at least once and simultaneously. I think everyone can also acknowledge a time in their life where they felt like Linda in that moment as well. Where they know that the mirror is being held up and they have an opportunity to change and to become better. Where their bubble of privilege or of circumstance that is specific to them is popped for the first time. A life changing moment where we learn to see something a different way. And I think because of the incredible nuance and humanness that lives within both of them, that's why they both live in all of us. Kind of.

[Tonya Moseley]

Yes.

[Ariana Grande]

And I think that's why it feels the way it does for so many people.

[Tonya Moseley]

Is it true that the two of you insisted on. Because Cynthia is also an amazing vocalist as well.

[Ariana Grande]

She's the best in the whole world. She really is, I swear. And as incredible. I'm sorry, I promise I'll let you ask you. But as beautiful as she sounds in the film and in the end result, and whatever it is, it's even more stunning. Face to face, just in person, in the thin air. It's just such a spectacular gift that she has. I'm sorry, what was the question?

[Tonya Moseley]

Well, the two of you all, is it true that you insisted on singing on set?

[Ariana Grande]

Yes.

[Tonya Moseley]

Which doesn't always happen when a museum, when there's a musical movie happening.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, it kind of demands it. The material demands that. Because the emotional context of what we're singing about sometimes can evoke the performance to be different take to take. Sometimes it's more emotional, sometimes it's different, sometimes it's stronger. Sometimes. And also with the comedic elements, I love to improv, I love to surprise people. So I also, as Glinda, kind of required that freedom to be able to do whatever felt most honest. And Galinda in the moment. So the material demands it from both of us also. We are singers. We love to sing. We love to sing so much. And it Would have felt dishonest to not sing live for this. And also, there's even more. You know, there are so many beautiful Glindas and Elphabas who have done this on Broadway and the West End on tour. Eight shows a week. So in solidarity with them, if we have to do something 28 takes in a row, live, we will do it. We're a part of a beautiful coven.

[Tonya Moseley]

Right.

[Ariana Grande]

And we had to do that with our sister witches. But also, it really just comes back to allowing the performances to be as honest as possible. If we are married to a track that's pre recorded, there's less room for, like, honesty to pour out. And when you're emotional, your voice cracks and you have things seep through that you know are beautiful in their own way.

[Tonya Moseley]

Right.

[Ariana Grande]

So that was a really extraordinary gift. And Simon Hayes, our incredible head of sound, turned the set into a recording studio. I mean, everywhere you looked, there was a microphone. In Cynthia's hat, in both of my little peaks of my bubble dress, the pink bubble dress in the bubble itself, and the wig and the thing and everything. That required a lot of work to be able to protect the quality and make sure that we were covered from every angle. Because if a gust of wind came or if which. There was so much wind and everything and rain and flying, just all the.

[Tonya Moseley]

Elements that were part of the production.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. And somehow Simon was able to figure it out. And also, you can hear in the background.

[Tonya Moseley]

So exciting.

[Ariana Grande]

I'm sorry, I'm a nerd when it comes to this stuff. Can you tell? But when I was helping with the vocal production, which was really a cool part of this, and I was helping comp through the takes, the live takes of Defying Gravity, and I called Cynthia on FaceTime. Cause I was so excited with what I. You could hear her little. When you solo the vocal for the second verse, I'm too accepting limits. You hear her little feet going up the stairs in the background when you solo the vocal. And I'm a nerd, so I love that.

[Tonya Moseley]

Yes.

[Ariana Grande]

You could hear the little stairs creaking and her shoes going up, and it was so cool.

[Tonya Moseley]

You're like a savant when it comes to sound, huh? Would you say that?

[Ariana Grande]

I think that's such a nice. That's such a generous way of putting it. Well, I just.

[Tonya Moseley]

I think it's interesting. You know, I have met a few people, but not a lot of people who comment on all of the sound, not just the vocals.

[Ariana Grande]

I love sound. I love voices and different tones and different textures and I think that's why when I was younger, I learned impersonations at a young age. Like, Judy Garland might have actually been my first with the wizard of Oz being on tv. I remember just sort of looking at her posture and also, like, her vibrato and her tone and finding that so interesting, noticing how voices can be so different at a young age.

[Tonya Moseley]

I'm just imagining a young little Ariana in front of the television looking at Judy Garland. Was there a particular line of hers or. Or any part of the film that comes to you that you used to impersonate?

[Ariana Grande]

Well, Somewhere over the Rainbow was a big one. I loved Somewhere over the Rainbow. I used to wear my little gingham dress in front of the tv, but I used to do a weird thing where I would wear it with, like, a scary movie mask.

[Tonya Moseley]

Like the movie scary. Like the. Like the movie Scream mask.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, the movie Scream. Or a Jason mask. I had that as well. The one with little. The hockey thing. It was quite strange, but I needed to put my twist on it, you know.

[Tonya Moseley]

What was. Yeah, what was that?

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, I don't know. I wish I could tell you, but. Makes sense, like, if, you know. I don't know. My mom loved Halloween, and we all loved Halloween.

[Tonya Moseley]

It all made sense back then.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes, it did. It's hard to put a finger on it now, but I just feel like it helps set up the visual.

[Tonya Moseley]

Yeah. I don't want to overspeak, but did you ever feel like people thought of you as a pop star and maybe not hefty enough to take on a role like this?

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, totally. Oh, absolutely. And then some. I felt like I had everything working against me for when, you know, when it comes to this role, I didn't think I. You know, I genuinely felt like I had so much to prove so that I could earn the openness from John, from the casting directors, from the producers, to maybe see a possible chance that I could disappear into this person. I thought, oh, my goodness, I know what's required of Glinda. I know she's funny. I know it's high notes, and I know that maybe some people who don't know this, her well enough would think that I'm the perfect fit. But that's just kind of scratching the surface, and I have to kind of be able to earn this and have every tool in my box available to me to use so that every piece of her that is emotional, that is. That is traumatized, that is insecure, that is why Glinda is the way she is, you know? So reliant upon external validation and the popularity and how important that is to her. And, you know, that's a real person under there with a real beating heart. And where she goes from part one, her arc in act two, and what she experiences. And, you know, it requires a lot, this role. And I thought that I would really have a lot to prove. That's why I took the audition process so seriously, because I knew I wanted to do the work so desperately to earn a chance.

[Tonya Moseley]

How do you push away self doubt?

[Ariana Grande]

Hmm. I think you kind of have to. This is something that my acting coach, Nancy Banks, and I talked about so much. She is one of the most goodly good witches on this earth, I have to say. But, you know, it's just befriending those monsters in a way. You kind of look at them and.

[Tonya Moseley]

Say, hey, the monsters.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Self doubt or fear or whatever it is, or nerves or whatever. And you have to kind of realize nerves are great. It means you care so much and that your ego can be left far, far, far behind in a faraway land so that you can do beautiful work and so that, you know, you care. You're acknowledging this and using those nerves as positive carbonation for the performance and also being able to put a little flashlight on your little fears or monsters in your head and say, like, hi, thank you for protecting me. They're totally valid, your fears of, you know, the ways in which this might, you know, could possibly. Whatever. Thank you for caring the way that you do. However, I have work to do. It would be beautiful if you could please step outside and give me a coffee. Maybe come back later. You know, you're totally gonna come back later. I know that. So thank you for stepping away for a little, because I have to get to know Glinda for now, and I have to do this work. I have to give myself over to this person for a little bit, and then I'll get to know her monsters in the meantime so that she can have real monsters in her head and those can be present. And it's just kind of learning how to do that dance. It's all a mental dance. So it's important to learn how to navigate those guys and be able to embrace and also keep them where they're supposed to be.

[Tonya Moseley]

One of the things about a movie like Wicked I mentioned right off the top that it's a cultural phenomenon is that it has now become for young people, like the same thing that the Broadway play was for you at a young age, but in a more accessible way, because It's a movie so kids of all walks of life who won't ever be able to see a theater production can now be a part of this in a real way. You've had firsthand experiences with people who shared with you how much this movie means to them. Can you share some of that with me?

[Ariana Grande]

I mean, it's an incredible privilege to be a part of this version of it and to have it be so accessible to so many people and to see the response be what it's been. I think so many new theater kids have been born, you know, and that's such a beautiful gift because it's such an extraordinary community and a beautiful community to grow up in. It's a safe place. You feel less alone when you find a fellow theater kid, when you. When you find someone who loves the same musicals as you. So it's really moving and really special.

[Tonya Moseley]

Ariana Grande, thank you so much for this conversation. It's been such a pleasure to meet you.

[Ariana Grande]

Thank you.

[Tonya Moseley]

Congratulations on your Oscar nomination.

[Ariana Grande]

Thank you so much.

[Tonya Moseley]

Ariana Grande has been nominated for her role in the movie musical Wicked. The film has received 10 Oscar nominations. The new Bob Dylan movie has put our book critic Maureen Corrigan in a New York state of mind. Here's her review of two quintessential New.

[Ron Rutson]

York I've always loved coming to New York stories. And judging from the acclaim that's greeted the new Bob Dylan movie, America does too. Dylan, played by Timothee Chalamet, arrives in the Greenwich Village of 1961. In no time, this complete unknown is embraced by the burgeoning folk scene of Greenwich Village, thanks in part to the city's gift of proximity. But I wonder about the longevity of the coming to New York genre. These stories of arrival and promise fulfilled are almost always nostalgic, predating the New York of obscenely high rents. And does a dreamer even need to come to New York, or any city for that matter, in the age of the Internet? In a New York minute, Kay Sohini vanquished my doubts. Her debut book, a graphic memoir called this Beautiful Ridiculous City, affirms the enduring power of New York and the power of literature to give people the courage to cross all manner of borders. Sohini is a South Asian graphic artist who grew up in the suburbs of Calcutta, living, as she says, in a sprawling ancestral house with four generations and far too many territorial people. From a young age, she was a loner and a reader, a reader peculiarly drawn to New York stories. Everybody writes about New York with so much tenderness, even when they are sick of it, sohini says. And so from afar, she began to read her way into New York. Years later, Sohini broke away from a long, abusive relationship with a man who she says made a room smaller just by walking into it. Staking her escape on little more than her years of reading and a modest fellowship to grad school, the wounded Sohiny flew to New York. Through understated language and jolting comic style images, Sohiny tells a vivid, multi dimensional New York story of her own. There's her odyssey, a capsule history of modern India and, always, references to books, books, books. This beautiful, ridiculous city engages with a good slice of the essential New York City literary canon, from Ann Petry to Fran Leibowitz, E.B. white to Dylan Thomas, Colson Whitehead, Nora Ephron and fellow graphic memoirist Alison Bechtel. Like all these chroniclers of the city, Sohiny sometimes questions her illogical attachment to such a difficult place, wondering if I am forever doomed to love things and people whose reciprocation is fraught with contradictions. But New York in image and reality saved her, and her love for the city remains hardy. One New York City writer Sohiny doesn't mention is Gay Talese, who's hailed, along with Norman Mailer, Joan Didion and Tom Wolfe, as a pioneer of new journalism. Talis, now in his early 90s, has written a lot of great pieces about New York, many of which are gathered together in a new book called A Town Without Time. The very first piece, Talise, published in Esquire in 1960, leads off this collection. It's called New York Is a City of Things. Unnoticed among the thousands of things Talise notices are the night workers, truck drivers, cops, hacks, cleaning ladies who line up for movies in Times Square at 8am Other essays here ruminate on the oft overlooked Verrazano Narrows Bridge and mobster Joe Bonanno. Worth the price of this collection alone is Talisa's masterpiece, Frank Sinatra Has a Cold. This 1966 profile of old blue eyes packs the sparkle, fizz and complexity of genuine New York seltzer. Here's Talese reading from the opening of that profile as originally heard on this American Life.

[Tonya Moseley]

Sinatra with a cold is Picasso without paint, Ferrari without fuel, only worse. For the common cold robs Sinatra of that uninsurable jewel, his voice cutting into the core of his confidence.

[Ariana Grande]

And it affects not only his own.

[Tonya Moseley]

Psyche but also seems to cause a kind of psychosomatic nasal drip within dozens of people who work for him, drink.

[Ariana Grande]

With him, depend on him, for their.

[Tonya Moseley]

Own welfare and stability.

[Ron Rutson]

Just as Sohiny assures us that New York still draws in dreamers, Talese reminds us that New York is already riddled with ghosts, many of them tough talking and hard drinking. 8 million stories and counting about the city, but still room for more.

[Tonya Moseley]

Maureen Corrigan is a professor of literature at Georgetown University. She reviewed this Beautiful, Ridiculous City by Kay Sahini and A Town Without Time by Gay Talese. Coming up, writer and dominatrix Brittany Newell talks about her new novel Softcore, which is set in San Francisco's underworld. I'm Tonya Moseley and this is FRESH AIR Weekend.

[Capella University]

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[Brittany Newell]

This message comes from Warby Parker. If you wear glasses, you know how hard it is to find the perfect pair. But step into a Warby Parker store and you'll see it doesn't have to be. Find a Warby Parker store near [e-mail] retail. This message comes from NPR sponsor Disney and Pixar's Inside Out 2, now nominated for an Academy Award for best Animated Feature. The New York Times declares Inside Out 2's focus on anxiety normalizes experiences that could seem isolating or overwhelming and makes them relatable. Disney and Pixar's Inside Out 2 for your consideration for best animated feature.

[Tonya Moseley]

My next guest, author Brittany Newell, loves to write about the secret worlds of others, the things people do, she says, to make their lives more bearable. Her newest novel, Softcore, takes the reader into San Francisco's underworld of dive bars, strip clubs and BDSM dungeons where tech Bros. Executives and outcasts live out their fantasies. Ruth, the protagonist, is a stripper who unravels when her ex boyfriend, a ketamine dealer, disappears. Ruth, known by her stripper name Baby Blue, starts working as a professional dominatrix, where she tries to fulfill the deepest desires of her clients, who mostly want to talk to her about how lonely they are and the grief they carry. Brittany Newell draws from personal experience. In addition to being a writer, she is also a professional dominatrix. A graduate of Stanford University, she studied comparative literature and gender studies and wrote her debut Novel Oola in 2017 when she was 21 years old. It's been described as the millennial Lolita. Newell has written for the New York Times, Joyland and Playgirl. She and her wife run a monthly drag and dance party called Angels at Aunt Charlie's Lounge, which is one of San Francisco's oldest queer bars. Now, before Brittany and I get into our conversation, I wanna warn you that this is an adult conversation, not appropriate for children. And we'll be talking about adult themes and topics, including sex. Work with that. Brittany Newell, welcome to FRESH air.

[Ariana Grande]

Hi.

[Maureen Corrigan]

Thank you for having me. I'm over the moon.

[Tonya Moseley]

Yes. Well, thank you for being here. I really enjoyed your book. It was such a good read. And I wanna know first off, how much of soft core is fiction and how much of it is based on real life?

[Maureen Corrigan]

Oh, yeah, that's the million dollar question. I have seen some early reviewers saying that it's a memoir, which it is definitely not. I want that to be clear, but I think it's a completely valid question. And I catch myself doing it as a reader, too, like the conflation of the main character with the author. And so I, of course, have thought about this a lot and been asked this a lot. And I think the ways that it is nonfictional are sort of subtler than one might realize. Like, I think the sensory details of my life and the characteristics of the people that I'm close to and that I've spent a lot of time noticing and observing, I think those are always the things that end up making their way into a book, which is sort of like I always say, like the tax of dating or loving or befriending a writer is that all of these sort of like very specific, intimate, sometimes seemingly insignificant details are the things that end up being like, woven into the book and making it have like the texture of real life. Like, in a way that it's like probably only like that person would see themselves in it when they read it and be like, oh, that's the brand of perfume that I use. Yeah, exactly. Like, oh, like that's my like turmeric colored bedspread.

[Tonya Moseley]

Right. I mean, I could see why knowing that your main character, Ruth, she has a master's degree, she's working in these underworlds. And like you, you are a Stanford graduate and you have a really interesting story into your foray into these worlds, which we're gonna get to in just a moment. But Ruth, the protagonist in the book, she's also known as her stripper name Baby. And One of the more powerful elements of your writing is that you not only explore what's in it for the guys that she services, you also explore outside of money, what's in it for her to be a stripper and a dominatrix. How would you describe Ruth?

[Maureen Corrigan]

Oh, that's a great question. I think Ruth is lonely and it actually has made me reflect a lot on my writing in general. And I think I'm always writing about characters who are defined by their longing and motivated by like trying to fill the God shaped hole inside of them to use like 12 step language. And so I think Ruth is a, is a holy person, like H O L E Y as perhaps we all are. Yeah. And I think she has a lot of reservations about her own lovability and also her own desirability, which maybe is one of the many reasons why she enjoys her work as a stripper and later as a dominatrix. And I think she's a very curious person, which probably would be the main ways that I think I'm like Ruth. Like, I actually think I'm very different from Ruth. But we do share that fundamental curiosity and attraction to, to underworlds or shadows maybe. Like, I feel like she's very unafraid of things that other people might deem like seedy or grubby. I think she feels at ease in those environments or with those types of people.

[Tonya Moseley]

Well, one of the things that Ruth does throughout the book is kind of make clear that she sees herself as average. And she does this like in her description of her physicality, what she looks like, she's like the girl next door. I think that she said things that she made men's mangy dreams come true. Why was it important for Ruth to be kind of an average girl with an average body in this world?

[Maureen Corrigan]

Yeah, well, I think I wanted it to be real and I wanted it to be empathetic and relatable and realistic and all of these things. Like, so I think, and it makes Ruth, I think a more like a character that we would see everywhere and a person who. Yeah, isn't this like flashing billboard image of a woman? Even though in the sex work worlds that's always, you know, what you're portraying or the role that you're stepping into. But even for the most, you know, like gorgeous woman working as a stripper or whatever, like that would always be a fantasy or a role that one is inhabiting. And I think all women, like regardless of what they look like, are actually like really good at that and are really like, learn To. Yeah, to play the role and to understand what someone wants before they understand it themselves. That's probably what makes an excellent sex worker, I think, is that almost like mind reading, empathy, and the ability to shapeshift. And actually, I think that that's another big part of, like, Ruth's averageness kind of being a benefit to her in these worlds is it allows her to shapeshift. And in general, she's a shapeshifter, like, outside the club as well.

[Tonya Moseley]

How did you go from being a Stanford graduate to a dominatrix?

[Maureen Corrigan]

Well, I guess probably the useless gender studies degree. No, I'm just kidding.

[Tonya Moseley]

But right, because you did, right? You did study queer gender.

[Maureen Corrigan]

Yeah, exactly.

[Tonya Moseley]

Contemporary fiction. Yes.

[Maureen Corrigan]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think when I graduated, you know, I had the bizarre and, like, gorgeous but also very weird experience of publishing my book. Like, so I wrote it when I was, I guess, like 20. And then it came out right when I graduated. So, you know. You know, that was amazing. And I think for me, and still actually, like, the most important thing to me upon graduating was wanting to have freedom and control of my time. And once my advance from the first book rather quickly ran out, I did the usual food service jobs. Bartender, waitress. And anyone who's worked in food service knows how, you know, taxing that can be, like, mentally and psychically. And so I think, like many artists and many people, I started to despair because I felt like I was losing this control of my time and my space. And so I think, like, all of the decisions I made around the types of work that I would end up going into were originally driven by this desire for freedom and control of my time. And, you know, like, if you can work one day of the week for $800 an hour and then have the rest of the week to write, that's the dream, you know, that's what has. And then I think once I got into it, in addition to the freedom and control of my time, you know, there were. Then I. Then I started to fall in love with it for the curiosities that, like, how it satisfied my own curiosities and the excitement of it and just, you know, like, I'm a writer, so I'm always interested in stories. And I kind of, like, randomly found this job or this type of work where people are always telling you not just their stories, but they want to tell you their secrets, you know, and I love to listen. So I kind of felt almost like called to the job, you know, like, as someone who wants nothing more than to be like, a keeper of these masculine secrets or to be a witness to people's longings and a witness to their grief. Like it felt, you know, not to say that I didn't have like weird sessions or rude clients. Like, of course, like I never want to give off this impression that, you know, everything is always like rosy, sitting down and talking.

[Tonya Moseley]

Right?

[Maureen Corrigan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tonya Moseley]

Okay. This is so fascinating to me because one of the things in reading this book that I kept thinking about is that you, you also have to sit in this seat of non judgment for all of the requests that come to you. Is there ever a moment where you do judge or where do you put yourself as far as your mental space to come to the table so that you can accept whatever as long as you're safe? Of course, whatever is being requested of you or brought to you is a fantasy.

[Maureen Corrigan]

Yeah, well, I mean, of course, like as a dominatrix and a provider, I have, you know, my own limits and I have the things that I really enjoy. Like I love cross dresser sessions. Like I feel like, I feel like I'm the perfect person for that because I have lots of cross dressers in my regular life too. And you know, there's things that I don't do either because I mainly more just because I feel like I'm not good at it. But to answer your question more specifically, you know, like if someone's presenting me with a fantasy like this disembodied fantasy, I think in general I would like to think I'm a very open minded person and I don't think it's particularly hard to feel into their fantasy when, you know, the central longing or the central appetite behind the fantasy is clear to me or is laid bare. You know, like so much of the time it's, you know, like it's. It might seem inaccessible or insane like a certain fantasy, but the heart of it is more relatable or familiar than maybe people would like to admit. So yeah, I think, I guess it's. I guess it's about empathy which, you know, I always like to say that what makes a good writer is also what makes a good dominatrix, which is empathy and curiosity and bravery. So I guess those things, like all coming together make it not easy but make me feel able to receive these fantasies. And I guess I think of myself, I said it earlier, but like to be a witness, you know, like to witness something and hold space for it, you know, even if it's not my particular.

[Tonya Moseley]

Your cup of tea.

[Maureen Corrigan]

Yeah. Not my flavor. Yeah.

[Tonya Moseley]

Right.

[Maureen Corrigan]

But to witness it feels important.

[Tonya Moseley]

Has there ever been an instance where you've seen these men in real life, in day to day life? At the grocery store, at the post office? And if that's the case, like, you just pretend. You just walk on by.

[Maureen Corrigan]

Right, Right. Like a therapist.

[Tonya Moseley]

Right.

[Maureen Corrigan]

Like, I guess when your therapist sees you out in the world, they're not supposed to acknowledge you. The only once, actually. Which is kind of interesting that it would only be once. And it was. I was late and walking to the dungeon to have a session with this person who was, like, killing time on the corner. And I remember he was wearing, you know, like the green. Mm. He was wearing, like, a green M and M T shirt and eating a piece of pizza. No, I was eating a piece of pizza. And I remember thinking like, oh, no, this is, like, so, like, ruining his fantasy. Cause I'm wearing, like, street clothes and like, wearing like my, like, ratty, like, faux fur jacket and eating pizza really hurriedly. Cause I'm late to my session. And I remember we just, like, locked eyes and then I just like. And then, you know, 10 minutes later, he's at the dungeon. And we didn't acknowledge it.

[Tonya Moseley]

Right. Cause that's part of the fantasy is it stays what's in the dungeon stays in the dungeon.

[Maureen Corrigan]

Exactly. And, you know, his fantasy of a dominatrix would probably be someone who, like, lives and sleeps and eats in, like, a full latex suit, you know, So I didn't want. I felt kind of bad. I was like, oh, no. I, like, disrupted that fantasy for him with my pizza.

[Tonya Moseley]

You know, you're young. We kind of bask in the glow of Ruth's youth in this book, even though she does encounter OGs. Like the woman who runs this home, this house, you know, BDSM house. Is there a life cycle for this kind of work? You know, I think it's obvious, like for stripping, for instance, but, like, in particular, to be a dominatrix. Is there an end date?

[Maureen Corrigan]

I don't think there's a particular age, but I do think that sex work in general is not something that you should plan to do forever, which, again, is true of many jobs. But I feel that it is so exhausting, and there is, like, a certain amount of, like, emotional drainage that happens that. And, you know, inevitably it. You know, it's also like the same thing with, like. You shouldn't model forever. Well, I guess you can model forever, but, you know, there. There is like a.

[Tonya Moseley]

Or like, athletes.

[Maureen Corrigan]

Yeah. But, you know, it does. It does sort of change how you view yourself if you're not so careful with your boundaries. And the reality is that like, most people start doing sex work when they're really, really young and don't have those boundaries in place. So actually I would say it's better to start when you're a bit older, like at least 25, when you're like prefrontal cortex has developed. I mean, not that I did that, but now that I'm 30 and looking back I'm like, actually, I think it's better to start when you're a bit older and to have a plan for your future self. I mean, you know, there are of course like dominatrixes of all ages, but I, yeah, I just think how taxing it can be on your like, psychic state is something that, yeah, you should, you should take care of yourself in that way, you know, like, because you're, you're really absorbing so many people's energies and so much vulnerability. And yeah, you know, we are therapists, but we're maybe not trained therapists. So I think sometimes those boundaries can be slippery, slipperier than we, than we realize until it's too late.

[Tonya Moseley]

Do you know other careers that other dommes have gone to once they leave this kind of work?

[Maureen Corrigan]

Well, literally, like therapists. Like, I know so many dommes and sex workers of all stripes who then become so interested in therapy because they realize that that's what they've been doing.

[Tonya Moseley]

Brittany Newell, thank you so much for this book.

[Capella University]

Thank you.

[Tonya Moseley]

It was such a fun read and this was such a delightful conversation. Thank you, thank you.

[Maureen Corrigan]

I had so much fun and thank you so much for reading.

[Tonya Moseley]

Brittany Newell is the author of the new novel Softcore. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Sam Brigger is our managing producer. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Bea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly CV Nesper with Terry Gross. I'm Tonya Moseley.

[Capella University]

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[Brittany Newell]

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