Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook

Summary

Fresh Air Episode Summary: Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook

Release Date: December 21, 2024

Introduction

In this special edition of Fresh Air Weekend, host Terry Gross engages in two insightful interviews: first with the globally renowned sibling duo Billie Eilish and Finneas O'Connell, and second with the dynamic married couple Stephen Colbert and Evie McGee Colbert. The episode delves into their creative processes, personal experiences, and collaborative projects, offering listeners an intimate look into their lives and work.

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Part 1: Billie Eilish & Finneas O'Connell

Background and Achievements

Billie Eilish and Finneas O'Connell have cemented their status as musical phenomena from a young age. Their collaborative efforts have led to groundbreaking successes, including Billie's album "When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?" which achieved a historic sweep at the Grammy Awards. Finneas, recognized as the youngest to win Producer of the Year, has also embarked on an independent career with his album "For Crying Out Loud." Billie's latest album, "Hit Me Hard and Soft," continues their streak with six Grammy nominations and each track surpassing 150 million streams on Spotify.

Vocals and Musical Evolution

Billie discusses the transformation of her voice over the years, attributing significant growth to her collaboration with a singing teacher during the making of "Hit Me Hard and Soft." She states:

"My voice has just gotten, you know, 10 times better in the last two years. And what's amazing is it's just gonna keep getting better." ([07:02])

This maturation process has allowed Billie to explore a fuller vocal range, moving beyond her signature whispery style that she initially felt was a limitation.

Collaborative Dynamic

Finneas elaborates on their evolving partnership, highlighting Billie's increasing involvement in instrumental and vocal arrangements:

"Billie has become kind of more knowledgeable and articulate about what she likes and what she doesn't in instrumental arrangement and production and vocal arrangement." ([08:52])

This synergy ensures that their music remains fresh and deeply resonant with their audience.

Impact of Fame and Personal Growth

Billie reflects on the challenges of growing up in the spotlight, particularly the disconnect with her teenage fans as she matured:

"I felt like the fans kind of saved me in that way because they were my age, and I felt like they were the only kind of friends I had for a while." ([16:07])

Finneas shares his perspective on balancing fame with personal life, emphasizing the importance of their familial bond over professional obligations.

Creative Projects

The episode features performances from both artists, including a track from "Hit Me Hard and Soft," titled "l'amour de ma Vie," showcasing their lyrical depth and musical prowess.

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Part 2: Stephen Colbert & Evie McGee Colbert

Introduction and Collaborative Ventures

Stephen Colbert and Evie McGee Colbert discuss their multifaceted partnership, both in marriage and professional endeavors. Evie co-authored their new cookbook, "Does This Taste Funny? Recipes Our Family Loves," which intertwines their culinary creations with personal anecdotes and family memories.

Balancing Careers and Family Life

Evie delves into the challenges of maintaining a healthy family life amidst Stephen's demanding career as a late-night show host:

"I ended up spending a lot of my time as a stay-at-home mother, which I had never expected to do. But it was a real privilege." ([35:27])

Finneas adds his thoughts on the sacrifices made to prioritize family over personal aspirations, reflecting on the mutual support within their relationship.

The Art of Cooking and Creativity

Evie shares her passion for cooking as a soothing and creative outlet:

"I love the process. I love one thing becoming another thing with a little care, a little love, and a little imagination." ([30:58])

She draws parallels between culinary arts and the meticulous production of a daily television show, highlighting the necessity of precision and creativity in both fields.

Culinary Inspirations and Family Recipes

The couple discusses their favorite comfort foods featured in the cookbook, emphasizing the significance of rediscovering and preserving family recipes:

• Finneas' Favorite: "My mother's cheese biscuits. When I make them, I feel like she's with me." ([49:10])
• Evie's Favorite: "The red rice from South Carolina, which brings back carefree childhood memories." ([49:33])

These dishes serve as nostalgic reminders of their upbringing and the importance of family traditions.

Meeting the Pope and Religious Reflections

Evie recounts a memorable encounter with the Pope, discussing the role of comedy as a social lubricant and its ability to challenge authority with grace:

"Comedy, I think, eases people's day. It is like a social lubricant." ([47:50])

This experience underscores the intersection of their professional lives with personal faith and community engagement.

Final Thoughts and Best Comfort Foods

In concluding the interview, both Stephen and Evie share their favorite comfort foods, reinforcing the theme of family and tradition that permeates their cookbook:

• Finneas: "Cheese biscuits are my favorite recipe because they make me feel connected to my mother." ([49:10])
• Evie: "Red rice reminds me of my childhood in South Carolina and the simple joys of family meals." ([49:33])

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Conclusion

This episode of Fresh Air Weekend offers a compelling glimpse into the lives of two highly influential sibling musicians and a prominent married couple balancing fame with personal commitments. Through candid conversations and shared experiences, Terry Gross facilitates a rich exploration of creativity, family, and the enduring power of authentic connections.

Transcript

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[Terry Gross]

In Philadelphia, I'm Terry Gross with FRESH AIR Weekend. Today, Billie Eilish and Finneas O'Connell, the sister and brother music partners who are a global phenomenon, talk about working together, becoming famous in their teens, family, how her voice is changing and how her signature baggy clothes were inspired by hip hop.

[Billie Eilish]

I would watch those videos and instead of being jealous of the women who get to be around the hot men, I would be jealous of the hot men. And I wanted to be them. I wanted to dress like them and I wanted to be able to act like them.

[Terry Gross]

Later. Stephen Colbert and Evie McGee Colbert. They're married. She does bits with him on a CBS late night show and they've collaborated on a new cookbook.

[Finneas O'Connell]

Well, I do get to eat what he makes, which is often delicious. Always.

[Terry Gross]

Often.

[Finneas O'Connell]

Often, Often.

[Terry Gross]

I would say often.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

Well, I'm experimenting.

[Terry Gross]

That's coming up on FRESH AIR Weekend.

[Stephen Colbert]

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[Terry Gross]

This is FRESH AIR Weekend. I'm Terry Gross. My guests are Billie Eilish and Phineas O'Connell. As you probably know, they're siblings who write songs together. She sings on their albums. He produces and plays several instruments. They've been writing and recording together since she was 13 and he was 18. Considering the number of records they've broken in the last few years, they're more than popular, they're a phenomenon. Their album When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go? Was the second in Grammy history to win in the major categories best record, Album, Song and new artist all in the same year. Phineas was the youngest person to receive a Grammy for Producer of the Year. Non Classical Billy was the youngest to win two Oscars, one for the theme for the Bond film no Time to Die and another for what Was I Made for from the Barbie Movie. She collaborated on both songs with Finneas. They're continuing to break records. Billie was the youngest most listened to artist on Spotify this year. Their latest album, Hit Me Hard and Soft, is now nominated for six Grammys, including all the major categories. Each of its tracks reached over 150 million streams on Spotify. Phineas also has an independent career as a producer and recording artist. His second solo album was recently released called For Crying Out Loud. Billie spent her teen years in front of her fans and The Press. In 2019, music critic John Pereilles wrote in the New York times, Eilish, age 17, has spent the last few years establishing herself as the negation of what a female teen pop star used to be. She doesn't play innocent or ingratiating or flirtatious or perky or cute. Instead, she's sullen, depressive, death, haunted, sly, analytical and confrontational, all without raising her voice. Let's start with a song from Hit Me Hard and Soft. This is l'amour de ma Vie, which is French for the love of my life.

[Unknown Singer]

I wish you the best for the rest of your life. Felt sorry for you when I looked in your eyes, but I need to confess I told told you a lie I said you, you were the love of my life the love of my. Did I break your heart? Did I waste your time? I tried to be there for you then you tried to break mine it isn't asking for a lot for an apology watching for making me feel like it kill you if I tried to leave you said you'd never fall in love again because of me Then you moved on immediately.

[Terry Gross]

Billy Eilish. Phineas OConnell, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. I'm Billy. It strikes me you're singing more in a fuller voice. What's changing about your voice and how you choose to use it?

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, you know, we started making music when I was about 13 and as most 13 year olds, I had not, you know, grown into my body and my voice and all the things that you age into as a human. And I always, you know, it's funny, like when, when things like that happen at a young age, you kind of have this idea that that's how things are going to be forever. And so in my mind at the time, my voice was going to sound like it did then forever. I thought it was going to be soft and my range wasn't going to be very big and I wasn't ever going to be able to belt and I wasn't ever going to be able to, you know, have much of a chest mix in my voice. And, you know, I spent many years touring and singing and doing shows and my voice matured and started to change and in the making of hit me hard and soft. I started working with a singing teacher, which I hadn't done since I was a kid in my choir. And I kind of always like, felt hesitant to and kind of embarrassed to somehow. And it completely has just honestly changed my life. And I mean, I've just, my voice has just gotten, you know, 10 times better in the last two years. And what's amazing is it's just gonna keep getting better.

[Terry Gross]

Did you want to do a whispery voice? Was that like a style choice or just like that's the where your voice is?

[Billie Eilish]

No, that's just how I sang. That's what's funny about it. I just, you know, I was like, I couldn't really do much else. Like, I didn't have the range, I didn't have the strength in my vocal cords and my breathing, you know, and think about, you know, how your voice sounded when you were a kid. Opposed to now it's a Completely different thing.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. And Phineas, I assume you do the arrangements.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, like the production and the instrumental arrangement. I would say that I do plenty of it, but Billy is deeply involved. And I would say that as time has gone on, Billie has become kind of more knowledgeable and articulate about what she likes and what she doesn't in instrumental arrangement and production and vocal arrangement. So we're either brainstorming stuff together or at the very least, she's reacting to, you know, what I do in a kind of a. I like that. Go further. I don't. I'm not crazy about that. You know, take that out kind of a sense, if that makes sense.

[Terry Gross]

I want to play a track because I like the instrumentation, the arrangement so much. And it's called the Diner. So, Phineas, do you want to say a little bit about the instrumental track of this?

[Unknown Speaker]

The Diner is a slight anomaly in terms of the way that Billy and I most commonly work. I would say the way that we most commonly work is I sit down with a guitar or I sit down at a piano and I play chords and Billy sings melodies and we come up with lyrics and melodies together over top chords. In the case of the Diner, on my own, I had made the. What became sort of most of the instrumental of the Diner. I'd been sitting around one day playing that sort of sampled re articulated horn thing. You take kind of a one track of a. Of a horn being played and then you load it onto a keyboard and the horn is then chromatic on the keyboard and you play the bup, bup, bup, bup, bup, bup, bup. That's me playing piano, but through a horn sample. And then I programmed drum samples and then bass samples, or I guess not bass samples, but bass synthesizers over top of that. And I presented it to Billy and then she riffed, you know, these super menacing cool lyrics over top of it.

[Terry Gross]

So let's hear the diner.

[Unknown Singer]

Don't be afraid of me. I saw you on my screens.

[Terry Gross]

Came.

[Unknown Singer]

Into the kitchen Looking for something to eat I left a call.

[Terry Gross]

That was the Diner from the new Billie Eilish album, Hit me hard and soft. And my guests are Billie Eilish and Finneas. Finneas, you're not on all of the current tour that Billie is on, and you've just released your second solo album. Does that have significant meaning in terms of the nature of your music partnership?

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, I think if I go back to the kind of genesis of this, first of all, we lived together. We both lived at home with Our parents. When we started making music, I was 18 and Billy was 13. And over the ensuing years, even after I moved out into my own place as a 21 year old, we still made most of the music in the bedroom in my childhood home. And as time went on and Billie's tour became a more and more heavy lift, she started to need to be more kind of diligent about how much vocal rest and physical rest she was getting on the road, which meant that we were making less music on the road. And the sort of turn of the tide there was that we would come off the road and had made nothing new, and then we'd kind of have a detox at home where we would, you know, have just spent every day together for several months and we'd kind of chill out and then we'd sort of reconvene and start making new music, and then we'd go back out on the road. And so it just became a kind of a version of like, wow, this is. This is gonna dominate every minute of my life. And I feel that I'm really not the, you know, best pianist, guitarist, backup singer, accompanist for Billy. You know, that's not the thing. That is my sort of special skill there. My special skill is being able to write and record songs with her. And so if I am picking between the two and I have other stuff on my plate, I'll pick making the album every time.

[Terry Gross]

Billy, can you talk a little bit about when you were a teenager and you had all these, like, teenagers, especially teenage girls, as like, such dedicated fans, what was it like for you to grow up as a teenage star with so many teenage listeners kind of idolizing you. And then judging from what I've seen and read about you, you've been kind of insecure about yourself, not necessarily of your music, but for any insecurity you have to have all these people turning you into an idol must have been. Well, maybe was a little disorienting, definitely.

[Billie Eilish]

I think, though, honestly, even though it was a lot for a young brain and body to deal with, in a way, the fact that I was a teenager and they were also teenagers somehow felt less kind of. I don't know, I felt. I think I just felt so connected to them because we were all the same age. And I, you know, I think it can be really hard when you're an adult and you have fans that are children to you or, you know, way older than you. Like, I think that it. I think that something about us all kind of feeling like we were growing up together was like, like, honestly comforting to me. And also, I didn't really have many friends for a couple years.

[Terry Gross]

Well, you were homeschooled, so it's not like you were hanging out in, in the schoolyard or in, you know, in the classrooms with your peers.

[Billie Eilish]

Well, so this is what's interesting is we were homeschooled. We didn't go to school. But Phineas and I both had so many friends growing up, and we did so many things, and there was no shortage of friends. There was no shortage of activities and, you know, things to do, which I think can be surprising for people to hear because they kind of think like, well, then how did you meet them? And, you know, we had all sorts of things. We did, I was part of a choir and I was in a dance company, and I. We did aerial arts and I rode horses and I did gymnastics, and I acted and Phineas acted, and I was in a, you know, there were so many things that were social for us. And honestly, when I became famous is at 14, it was not a good time in terms of, like, keeping friendships. I think when you're 14, that's kind of an age where friendships are already kind of rocky. And also, all my friends did go to school, so, like, they were all going to high school. And, and suddenly I had no way of relating to anyone. And I kind of lost all my friends and I, I maintained a couple, but those were really challenging to keep, even still. And so for those few years of becoming this, like, enormous superstar, I was kind of feeling like, wait, what the hell is the point? I don't have any friends and I don't have, like, I'm losing all the things that I love so deeply and all the people that I love. And so in a way, the fans kind of saved me in that way because they were my age, and I felt like they were the only kind of friends I had for a while.

[Terry Gross]

My guests are Billie, Eilish and Finneas. Their latest album is called Hit Me Hard and Soft. We'll be back after a short break.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

Terrence?

[Terry Gross]

I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh AIR Weekend.

[Stephen Colbert]

This message comes from Midi Health. If you're a woman over 40 dealing with hot flashes, insomnia, weight gain, or brain fog, you don't have to accept it as just another part of aging. The clinicians at Midi Health understand what you're experiencing and know how to help. Midi Health provides specialized care for perimenopause and menopause, covered by insurance. Book your Visit [e-mail] that's joinmidi.com this message comes from MIDI Health. Women in midlife face a healthcare desert, but MIDI is here to fill the gap, offering expert care for perimenopause and menopause covered by insurance. Hot flashes, insomnia, brain fog, weight gain and moodiness don't have to be accepted as just another part of aging. MIDI clinicians understand how these symptoms can connect to menopause and prescribe a wide range of solutions. Book your Visit [e-mail] that's joinmidi.com Support for NPR comes from Google. This year, Google is celebrating the breakout searches of 2024 that captured the world's attention and shaped our year in ways we never saw coming. Watch the film at G co yearinsearch.

[Terry Gross]

Google search on this is FRESH AIR weekend. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Billie Eilish and Finneas O'Connell, their brother and sister and songwriting and performing partners. And their new album is called Hit Me Hard and Soft. Phineas, what's it been like for you? Especially, you know, early on when Billy was very young and you were still in your teens, your late teens, what was it like for you to have an audience dominated by teenage girls? When you're a guy and you're also older, you know you're four or five years older than Billy.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, I'm four years older. So I would say that I didn't have much of a kind of a feeling one way or the other about the age or gender of the predominant audience. I had a real sense of gratitude for their enthusiasm and, you know, the audience that was coming to the shows that Billy was playing couldn't have been more engaged and enthusiastic.

[Terry Gross]

Billy, I've read that some girls or, you know, young women in the audience are throwing their bras onto the stage when you perform. How often does that happen? Do you have any idea how that started?

[Billie Eilish]

I mean, that's like a classic.

[Terry Gross]

Well, it used to be panties that, you know, women would throw at male stars, you know. Right.

[Billie Eilish]

Well, it's funny. Like, I always envied that. I remember, like, watching, you know, videos of men performing, whoever they may be, and, you know, people throwing bras and underwear and, you know, and I always thought, like, that's so awesome. So it's so sick, so powerful. I always was just jealous of that. And I remember when I was first doing shows, you know, fans throw all sorts of things on stage. They throw gifts and presents and different flags of different kinds. And. And honestly, like, right away, people started throwing bras when we were all me and the audience 16. And I loved it. I really did. You know, I had. I spent many years having a lot of not. Not gender dysphoria about my own gender, But I think a lot of women go through the feeling of, you know, just envying men in any kind of way, one way or the other. And for me, I would watch videos of different male performers on stage and just feel this, like, deep sadness in my body that I'll never be able to, you know, take my shirt off on stage and run around and, like, not try very hard and, like, you know, just jump around on stage and that's enough. And you, you know, have enough energy from just myself with no backup dancers and no, you know, huge stage production, and the crowd will still love me. And that's just like, only a man can do that. And because of that, I think more than almost anything else in my career, I was very, very, very determined to kind of prove that thought wrong. And I really did. I really feel like I did. I. I didn't like the kind of pop girl, leotard, you know, backup dancers, hair done thing. I didn't like that for me. I liked it for other people. But that didn't resonate with me. I never saw myself in those people. And honestly, I never saw myself in any women that I saw on stage. But I did see myself in the men that I saw on stage. And I thought that was unfair. And so I did everything that I could to kind of try to break that within myself and the industry.

[Terry Gross]

But, you know, on a related note, you often dress, you know, on videos and in performance, on stage, in really baggy clothes. And I was thinking, like, since you grew up with a lot of hip hop, you know, in a lot of hip hop performances on stage and in videos, the dancers or the women in the videos are usually dressed, and especially earlier in the period when you were growing up, were dressed in, like, really tight and scanty kind of clothes. And the men are wearing, like, baggy hoodies and pants that are so baggy they're like falling down. And in that sense, did you take your cue from the men in hip hop in terms of dress as opposed to the women?

[Billie Eilish]

Yes, exactly correct. I would watch those videos and instead of being jealous of the women who get to be around the hot men, I would be jealous of the hot men. And I wanted to be them and I wanted to dress like them, and I wanted to, you know, be able to act like them. And to be fair, I had all sorts of women that I looked up to and artists that I, you know, are the reason that I am who I am. And also, I wouldn't have been able, even if I'd felt the way I did, I wouldn't have been able to achieve it had it not been for the incredibly powerful, strong willed women, artists and people in the public eye that came before me that made it possible for me. So, like, my favorite singers are all kind of old jazz singers that I've always looked up to. And I'm always forcing people to watch videos of Ella Fitzgerald singing live and Julie London singing live, and, you know, Sarah Vaughan and Nancy Wilson and all these people. We were watching these videos and every single one, of course, because of that period of time, they're all wearing dresses, they're all wearing tight, you know, corseted maybe dresses with their hair done. But like, they didn't, they couldn't, they couldn't just not do that. You know, that's part of how things were then. And so thank God that those women came before me because otherwise I wouldn't have been able to do anything.

[Terry Gross]

Phineas, you have a new album and I want to play a song from that. So I want to end with Family Feud because your family is so important to you both and the way you still operate as a family because I think your parents are often touring with you or at least they used to. So this is your song, Finneas. It's from your new album. Do you want to just say a couple of words about writing it?

[Unknown Speaker]

Sure. We had just finished making Billy's album and it was about to come out and I knew that this, you know, multi year world tour was on the horizon for her and that I wouldn't be on it. I was just sort of thinking about my relationship with her and how kind of public our family had become. And, you know, she's a public figure, I'm a lesser public figure. There's a lot of attention and judgment paid to us both and especially to Billy, and it's just sort of a rumination on, on that.

[Terry Gross]

Billy Eilish. Phineas Oconnell, thank you both so much. I really appreciate you coming on our show and good luck with the rest of your tour.

[Unknown Speaker]

Thank you so much for having us.

Thanks so much, Terry.

Mom and dad are out of town. The two of us are grown ups now. Pepper had to be put down. Hard to take, hard to own. Not hard to break a collarbone. A little late, but not alone and you're only 22 and the world is watching you Judging everything you do. Just a house and just a room. Just, just a handful of balloons. Just another afternoon just the way it almost was when it's just the two of us Sleep all day I'll wake you up when it's just the two of us.

[Terry Gross]

That's Family Feud from Finneas new album For Crying Out Loud. Billie Eilish and Finneas latest album together is called Hit Me Hard and Soft. My next guests are Stephen Colbert and Evie McGee Colbert. They're partners in their marriage as well as in their production company, and she makes regular appearances on his CBS show the Late show with Stephen Colbert. During the COVID lockdown, when he hosted the Late show from their home, she was his partner on the show, acting as a producer, sound engineer, and serving as an audience of one. I loved hearing her laughing at his jokes. They're typically not partners in the kitchen because they have different approaches to cooking. But now they have a new cookbook they co authored with the great title does this Taste Funny? Recipes Our Family Loves Shrimp are well represented in the book because Stephen and Evi grew up in coastal South Carolina, where they still have a home. Each recipe in the book is preceded by the story behind it and memories associated with it, so you actually learn about Stephen and Evie as you read the recipes. If you watch Colbert's show, you know he likes a good drink. The book has a whole chapter on drinks. Each episode of the Late show opens with a monologue typically satirizing a major event in the news. Colbert doesn't pull his punches, especially when it comes to threats against democracy. Stephen, Evi, welcome to FRESH air. It's such a pleasure to have you back on the show, Stephen, and to talk to you, Evi.

[Finneas O'Connell]

Thank you.

[Terry Gross]

Thanks, Terry.

[Finneas O'Connell]

I'm so excited to be here.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

It's been too long.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, yeah. So first question to you, Stephen. How do you find time to cook? I can't believe that you find time. I don't have time to cook and I don't have half the job that you do. I make like omelets and heat roasted chicken.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

Evie will tell you it's relaxing for me. That's what I want to do on a Saturday afternoon if I've got a moment and I've got it to myself, especially if there's a farmer's market in town or something like that. I want to go get a pork belly and just start marinating that or start, you know what? I've got some Brioche. I've got eggs. I've never done an almond bread pudding before. Let's try that. Maybe the crispy top. Ooh, I'll make a card cartouche on the top and sort of steam it in a bain marie first. Then I'll take it off and. Ooh, what about a bourbon caramel sauce? Like I get and I don't. What drives Effie crazy sometimes is that then I don't eat it.

[Finneas O'Connell]

Yeah. You're not cooking to make food for yourself. You're just cooking to make a process.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

Right. I just. I love process. I love one thing becoming another thing. Well, it's kind of like doing the show. You get there in the morning and there's, I don't know, maybe nine stories that are generally dominating the conversation over the last 24 hours. We have good pitches on six of them and three of them then dominate the monologue. Boiled it all down. We've taken. That's why I like the show chopped. Because they take. You know, you have these baskets at the beginning of the show where there's like, you have octopus and licorice and you have smoked salt here. Make an entree or whatever. That's what doing the show is like. And kind of you have to love process to do a show on a daily basis. And that's related to food. For me, one thing becomes another thing with a little care, a little love and a little imagination.

[Terry Gross]

And.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

And I find it incredibly smoothing. Smoothing.

[Terry Gross]

It's also smoothing.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

It's also bloating, but it's also incredibly, incredibly soothing to me. And then I'll just try to go give the food away.

[Terry Gross]

So, Evie, if Colbert is doing all this cooking but doesn't eat it, do you get to eat it? And do you do a lot of the cooking that you actually both eat?

[Finneas O'Connell]

Well, I do get to eat what he makes, which is often delicious. Always.

[Terry Gross]

Often.

[Finneas O'Connell]

Often. I would say often.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

Well, I'm experimenting. I'm imagining what it's going to be like. And, you know, it doesn't.

[Finneas O'Connell]

Sometimes it doesn't work.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

Things don't always work out. Terr.

[Terry Gross]

When I was growing up, my mother wasn't much of a cook, but she had two fantastic dishes that she made, and I always look forward to those. But Monday nights, I'd almost be in tears. Cause Mondays are bad enough when you're going to school. And she'd sometimes make broiled mackerel, which is a very bitter fish. Especially when you're a kid. Yeah. With canned string beans. Oh, God. I know. And lettuce with no dressing on it.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

Sure.

[Terry Gross]

Iceberg. And I'd nearly be in tears later in the week. The food got better. So I'm wondering with each of you, the recipes in your book look absolutely sumptuous, but were there meals that you had that nearly brought you to tears when you were growing up?

[Evie McGee Colbert]

Oh, my God, yes. When I was a kid, my, you know, again, 11 kids and also Catholic. So, you know, no meat on Fridays. We had so many Mrs. Paul's or like Gorton's fish sticks. I think it was Mrs. Paul's fish sticks growing up. And my mother, her idea of making you fancy. And I'm sure she saw this suggestion, the serving suggestion on like on the back of the package with some partnership with Campbell. Cause it would take a can of Campbell's condensed tomato soup and you would just heat up the condensed soup and ladle that over the fish sticks as the sauce.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, no, water. You're supposed to add a can of water.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

No, no. That's if you're making soup, not if you're making a delicious remoulade.

[Finneas O'Connell]

Imagine the salt content.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

Exactly. Exactly. I'm a creature of pure sodium by the time I was 10. But you know that also this is the thing that even I, as a child who just would eat anything you'd put in front of me. Spaghetti with ketchup.

[Stephen Colbert]

Oh, my God.

[Terry Gross]

I had that once at my aunt's house.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

Oh, my God. That we got that all the time. My brothers and sisters loved it. I'm like, I don't understand what's happening. But I would, of course, have to eat it.

[Terry Gross]

Have you ever brought to tears anticipating something your mother was going to serve for dinner?

[Finneas O'Connell]

Yeah, my parents, you know, everything was, was very local. So we, I think a lot of Charlestonians love this is shad roe, which is really hard to get. It's, you know, the roe of a shad fish. And I hated that.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

And it would be steamed with vinegar.

[Finneas O'Connell]

They would have that all the time, too.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

Seasonally.

[Finneas O'Connell]

Seasonally. Yeah. Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

Stephen Colbert and Evie McGee Colbert have a new book called does this Taste Funny? Recipes Our Family loves. We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR weekend.

[Capital One]

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[Terry Gross]

Is FRESH AIR WEEKEND. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to our interview with Stephen Colbert and Evie McGee Colbert. They're married. She makes regular appearances on the Late show with Stephen Colbert. They're partners in a production company and now they've co authored a new cookbook called does this Taste? Recipes Our Family Loves. Evie, are there things you had to sacrifice in your life when Stephen became famous and had this kind of consuming career and you had children?

[Finneas O'Connell]

Wow. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I decided it was listen, I think I'm incredibly lucky to have been able to be home with our children. But Stephen's hours were really long and difficult and I felt that I just wanted to be home with them when I could. So I ended up spending a lot of my time as a stay at home mother, which I had never expected to do. And it was, it was a real privilege. Yeah, I think there were sacrifices. I had trained to be an actress and I decided not to be an actress even before we got married. But then later in life I had opportunities to do some performing, which I chose frequently not to do because it would take me out of town. And I felt that our family needed somebody at home. I mean, I don't in any way want to suggest I ever felt cheated because it was such a privilege to be able to have the life I had. I feel incredibly lucky that I was with my children and that, I mean, even though Stephen had a busy job, he wasn't gone. He just came home late. So we were always together as a family. And that's in show business. That's super unusual, you know. So I think we've had an incredibly lucky time, frankly. Very blessed.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

I can't speak to your experience, cause that's your experience. But certainly for the business that I'm in, this is one of the more normative jobs you can have. Cause you know where you're going and you know when you're coming home. And the hours may be long, but at least you can plan your life.

[Terry Gross]

Right then you're gonna be home. I mean, you're not in seriations like.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

Shooting Game of Thrones unless they want to cast me. And then to hell with all of this TV stuff.

[Terry Gross]

I'm a hell with the family.

[Finneas O'Connell]

I had someone say to me once, Terry, that I think is so funny when mar. I guess you'd been doing the Colbert pour for a year or two. Stephen and I was chairing a book fair in our kids school and there was an author who said that she wanted to meet me because I was Stephen's wife. And I remember saying to my friend, my life is just getting really weird. This is just weird. And she turned to me and said, the life you ordered has arrived. And I thought it was such a funny way, but it is true. It all comes as a package, right. If you want to be a performer or if you want to be an artist. And with fame comes attention, comes opportunity, but also comes sacrifice of some way.

[Terry Gross]

You're both from prominent families. Stephen, your father died when you were 10, but before that he'd been a director of a program at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and he worked at the National Institutes of Health. And then the family moved to South Carolina and he became the first vice President for Academic affairs at the Medical University of South Carolina. That was in 1969.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

And Evi, your father was a prominent civil litigator. He served in the South Carolina House of Representatives for three terms. He was a Democrat. Because your fathers were prominent, were you expected to be model children?

[Finneas O'Connell]

Huh?

[Evie McGee Colbert]

Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, I don't think because our. Or I'll just speak for me. I don't think because of who my father was, was I expected to be a model child? I think the same. I mean, first of all, I think we were all 11 children in the family. I think we were all held to the same standard. I think I had a slightly different relationship with my dad than my other brothers and sisters did because I was the last. They used to say, I can't believe dad took you to the carnival. Like dad hates carnivals or I can't believe dad went to the beach with you or something like that. But my father had a sense that this is his last bite at the apple and to do those fatherly things with me because my father died when I was young, it's not so much I was held to a standard that I had to match him is that when your parent dies, when you're young, they become Olympian or there's something much larger than life, which of course is how a child sees their parent, but you never get to move beyond that. So as you get older, they also get larger. So as your view of the world or what you believe is asked of you to be an adult, at least for me, my father inflated ahead of me and became even grander in a way. And so if it was. If there was any standard placed on me, it was placed on me by myself. My mother was not asking me to be a certain person because of who my father was. I did it to myself because of the person I perceived my father to be. And I actually don't think I'm very far off. I think he was an extraordinary man, but I think that's self imposed on.

[Finneas O'Connell]

My part and probably on mine too, actually. I mean, I was lucky enough to have had my father for a long time. He just passed away this past April. And at when I delivered the eulogy, I mentioned how as a little girl, I used to like to put my feet in my father's footprints on the sand. And I think metaphorically, that's how I felt about him. I admired my father so much that I always wanted to try to live up to be the person he was. And the same for my mother. I hit the jackpot with my parents. I really loved them. And I think for me, it wasn't being a model. It was being a person who cared about the community that they lived in and gave of themselves and their time to make the world a better place in whatever way they could. And my parents were both selfless, community active. They did a lot in the town of Charleston.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

And for me, because I wanted to know my father, even though I was robbed of that ability to move beyond the childhood view of him, because I wanted to know him, I grabbed onto the little things that I did know about him. For instance, my father's idea of fun was to read philosophy. He really would enjoy sitting down with Jacques Maritin or Leon Blois or other French Christian humanists. And so that's what I read. I read a lot of books. I knew that he had lived a life of the mind. So that's what I wanted to do. It was important to be smart. My father was a dean, assistant dean at Yale Medical when he was 29. He was a full dean at 31 at St. Louis. And so he was this academic superstar, which I never was, but he was this academic superstar and a deep thinker. And I aspired for that in hopes of knowing him. And often it was religiously based. You know, he was Jesuit educated. And my mother and my father both profoundly dedicated to their Catholic faith in different ways. My father more intellectually and my mother more sort of mystically in a way, though she also read a great deal. But more Dorothy Day. And I think I was most influenced by the little bit I knew that I used as a thread to pull on to try to understand him.

[Terry Gross]

Stephen, I've known about your deep faith and Catholicism since the Daily show, when you were kind of like the religion correspondent and you had a regular feature called this Week in God.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

This is the God Machine. Beep, boop, boop, beep, boop, boop.

[Terry Gross]

Yes. And you know, you still talk about religion on the Late show, and you satirize religion. You satirize Catholicism. You satirized the Pope. So I was really surprised when the Pope invited you to the Vatican as part of a larger event. And I don't remember what the event was, but Jim Gaffigan was there. I think David Sedaris was there. Sure.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

Conan was there. Jimmy Fallon was there. Chris Rock was there.

[Terry Gross]

What was this about?

[Evie McGee Colbert]

Well, first, if I could just back up just slightly here, I'm willing to talk about my own faith if my guest asks me about it. I don't like to proselytize, and I'll make any jokes about the Catholic Church. You know, I don't. They deserve a lot of them. And I am deeply Catholic in that it is combed into my being. But I don't know how deeply devout I am. I know people who are really deeply devout, and I wouldn't want to put myself in their league. I just am integrally Catholic, if you know what I mean. And I do love my church, and I still go to church, and I do have a faith. I just don't want to confuse myself with someone who was a very devoted Catholic. Devout, I mean. But I have become friends with Father Jim Martin over the years, who's sort of like the Broadway priest in New York, and he's the editor of America magazine. And he was the chaplain of the Colbert Report on the old show. And, you know, we've become dear friends over the years. And he just wrote me one day. I actually got the email right before I went on stage at the Late show one night saying, hey, the Vatican has asked me to put together a list of like 20 comedians. Cause the Pope wants to meet some, meet with some comedians. Would you mind helping with that? And I was like, yeah, sure. So I put a list together of 40 comedians. They sent me back a list of 15 or 20, something like that. Like, they made their selects of My selects with a few of their own. And Jim Gaffkin and I called everybody on the list, and we said, hey, we don't really know what this is about, but the Pope wants to meet comedians because he thinks that comedians do something valuable in society, and he just wants to meet us now. I thought we were going to go to Rome and, like, hang with the Pope. I don't know why I thought that. I thought that maybe we'd, like, sit there and we'd have coffee or tea with the Pope and he would ask us some questions, then we would get a photo and leave. It turns out that these were comedians from all over the world. It was, like, from 60 countries. And the Pope had a meeting in the Apostolic palace with us. There was, I think, altogether it was like, 110 comedians. And we all didn't know what was going on. And we all sat there and the Pope came in and he gave a beautiful speech about comedy that we did not understand at all, that we read later. That was about how.

[Terry Gross]

Because it was in Italian, it was.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

In solamente in Italiano. And it was about how comedy, I think, eases people's day. And it is like the social lubricant. And it's okay to make fun of God and the Church and the Pope and all that kind of stuff, as long as, like, you do it with a smile and there's some intention to make people feel better. And what struck me was it's like, your philosophy. Yeah, I would like to think so. And what struck me is that we're in this room, which is about the size of the Sistine Chapel, and it's actually down the hall from the Sistine Chapel, and it's more rococo than it is, you know, late Renaissance, but it's beautiful. It's like you're in another Sistine Chapel, and we're all sitting there in our Sunday best, as it were, waiting for the Pope to come in. But comedians are all iconoclasts, were all people who have a pretty jaundiced view of authority. And I know that some of the people there weren't Catholic or weren't meaningfully Catholic, at least by their own description anymore. And the minute the Pope came in, we all leapt to our feet, like the iconoclasm went out the door. We all just leapt to our feet and started applauding and, like, screaming. I thought, wow, that's the effect the Pope has on 110 comedians. Like, it was almost like an autonomic response, because you've spent all this. It's like, the location. It's the red shoes. It's the white outfit. It's all, like, the guys with the sashes around you. The Pope's gentlemen, who all look like butlers and everything. We were all. I was sort of shocked that we all kind of gave into it immediately.

[Terry Gross]

Did you get to meet the Pope one on one?

[Evie McGee Colbert]

I did. I did. I memorized something in Italian. I went up and I said, you know, sancte Padre. Hello, Holy Father, My name is Stephen Colbert, and I am the reciting. I'm the revoche. Recitante. I'm the reciting voice for your memoir, Life, because he had released a memoir of his life in the spring. And I had gotten a call from my manager to say, baby doll, you're not gonna believe who wants you to do their audiobook. And I'm like, who? And he goes, just guess. I'm like, I don't know. Barbra Streisand. No. And he goes, the Pope? And. And. And. And. And. And I go, does it pay? And he goes, you better believe. So anyway, so he negotiates with the Vatican for my contract. And I read the Pope. So I just said, I read your book. You know, I thank so much. I was a reciting voice for your book. And he said, ah. And kind of used his hand to guide me to the side. So that was it. That's all I got. It wasn't that. It was. It was very nice. And he gave me. He gave me a rose. We all got rosaries blessed by the Pope.

[Terry Gross]

I'd like you each to leave us with your favorite comfort food.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

Well, most of the book is comfort food. It is a lot of butter. Yeah.

[Finneas O'Connell]

Oh, I don't know. I mean, my favorite recipe in the book is the one that we start with, my mother's cheese biscuits, because those were things that she made always. And so now when I make them, I feel like she's with me. And it makes. It's comforting. And I love them. They're wonderful to give, and they're delicious and fattening. I think comfort food should be fattening.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

I got so many in there. It's probably the red rice. You know, growing up on the coast of South Carolina, just anywhere in the south, there's so much red rice, and it has its roots in Jollof rice of West Africa, but it's super jammy and a little spicy and salty. And I had it almost every day growing up at Stiles Point Elementary School on Michael Drive on James Island, South Carolina, which It's still there. And there were just barrels of it being cooked every day by those lunch ladies. And I never got tired of it. And right before this book, I actually found a way to make it based on an Allison Roman recipe that I said, ooh, that sauce she's making for the pasta actually has the flavor I remember as a child from this red rice. And I tried it, and it worked. And that was that discovery of being able to get that flavor back from my childhood, those carefree years is what that rice gives me.

[Terry Gross]

When you say care for years, do you mean before your father died? Yes.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

Yes.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, yeah. Taste is powerful.

[Finneas O'Connell]

It's true.

[Terry Gross]

Smell is powerful.

[Finneas O'Connell]

I think we both enjoyed that rediscovery of recipes that we'd grown up with, which we, you know, we maybe had, you know, made them in our adulthood, but not really spent time with them the way we spent time with them writing this book.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

And that's what Covid did. We were back there in Charleston on that island with our families, with the people who had taught us to make these and made these for us when we were children, and with those ingredients from that field and that creek. And it was a terrible time that had in it this gift to us for us to slow down, go home, and remember.

[Terry Gross]

And also working. It sounds like working together so closely on the show worked out okay.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

Which we had been so afraid to do, or at least I had been afraid to do because I was so nervous the first time Evie was on that she wouldn't have a good time. It's actually made it to air. Her going, oh, my God, you're trembling. I'm like, I'm afraid this is gonna be a bad experience for you. Cause I'm bossy.

[Finneas O'Connell]

No, no, no. But we have had fun, you know, and this whole process has been a.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

Lot of fun and an enormous amount of work. And I just could not be more. I could not have more admiration for the people who do this for a living, because we had no idea what a huge undertaking is to do this.

[Finneas O'Connell]

A lot of detail in a cookbook.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

Oh, my God. Three years to do this.

[Finneas O'Connell]

You have to be right about whether it's a teaspoon or a tablespoon.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

You really do. It makes a difference.

[Terry Gross]

Were your risk fact checked?

[Finneas O'Connell]

Yes.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

By lie six ways to Sunday. It went through us. We'd make it many times, and then through our niece Lucy.

[Finneas O'Connell]

Our niece, Lucy Wichman, was fabulous.

[Evie McGee Colbert]

She helped tested everything, and then all of that would go on to Chris Styler, who was a professional test kitchen, essentially and he would say, is this what it's supposed to look and taste like? And we'd go, no. And then he would say, then you need to rewrite this recipe.

[Terry Gross]

Well, I don't cook fancy things or ambitious things, but I enjoyed seeing the recipes. I enjoyed all the anecdotes. So I'm so glad we got to talk. It's just been such a pleasure and a joy to speak with you both.

[Finneas O'Connell]

You too. Thank you so much.

[Terry Gross]

And to you. And to you. Stephen Colbert and Evie McGee Colbert have a new book called does this Taste? Recipes Our Family Loves. Fresh AIR Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our co host is Tanya Moseley. I'm Terry Gross.

[Capital One]

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[Stephen Colbert]

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