Best Of: Comic Ronny Chieng / Writer Miranda July

Summary

Fresh Air: Best Of – Ronny Chieng & Miranda July
Host: Terry Gross | NPR
Release Date: January 4, 2025

---

Introduction

In this special "Best Of" episode of Fresh Air Weekend, host Terry Gross engages in insightful conversations with two prominent figures in contemporary arts and entertainment: comedian Ronny Chieng and writer/filmmaker Miranda July. The episode delves into Ronny's rise in the comedy world and his perspectives on politics, while Miranda discusses her acclaimed novel All Fours, exploring themes of midlife, sexuality, and personal transformation.

---

Interview with Ronny Chieng

Ronny Chieng is a stand-up comedian, actor, and political satirist known for his role as a correspondent on The Daily Show. Born in Malaysia to Chinese Malaysian parents, Ronny's multicultural upbringing spans Malaysia, Singapore, and the United States. He has recently released a Netflix comedy special titled Love to Hate It.

Career Beginnings and Influences

Ronny recounts his early exposure to stand-up comedy, inspired by watching Jerry Seinfeld on Seinfeld during his childhood in New Hampshire. This early fascination ignited his passion for comedy, leading him to pursue a career in stand-up while earning a BA in finance and a law degree in Australia.

"I want to try that someday... I was like 4 years old."
[08:34] Ronny Chieng

Joining The Daily Show

Ronny discusses how Trevor Noah played a pivotal role in his entry into The Daily Show. Despite having a modest presence in the comedy festival circuit, Trevor's support was instrumental in Ronny securing a spot on the show.

"He really was adamant that he wanted an Asian person on the show because he felt that Asian people are, like, half of the world's population, but there's no presence on the Daily Show."
[17:36] Ronny Chieng

Comedy and Politics

A significant portion of Ronny's comedy revolves around political satire, particularly targeting Donald Trump. He reflects on the challenges of maintaining humor in a polarized environment and the potential repercussions Trump poses to free speech and democratic institutions.

"I believe in American institutions. I believe in checks and balances... I'm a bit more hopeful."
[12:33] Ronny Chieng
"We had four years of him and a Daily show was making fun of him every day during those four years, and essentially nothing happened."
[13:53] Ronny Chieng

Impact of Trevor Noah’s Departure

Ronny shares his experience during Trevor Noah’s unexpected resignation from The Daily Show. He describes feeling unprepared and concerned about the show's future but maintains a resilient outlook.

"I have a very nihilistic view about the job and doing it... but I believe America will always have a daily satirical news show."
[21:41] Ronny Chieng

Final Thoughts

Ronny emphasizes his commitment to comedy as a tool for societal reflection and personal expression, hoping to continue contributing to the discourse through his performances.

"I'm just a comic just, you know, just making dick jokes. But that's what I hope, and that's why I believe and that's why I'm still here."
[13:55] Ronny Chieng

---

Interview with Miranda July

Miranda July is an acclaimed writer, filmmaker, and performance artist. Her latest novel, All Fours, explores the intricacies of a 45-year-old woman's life changes during perimenopause, blending humor with poignant insights into midlife fears and transformations.

Inception of All Fours

Miranda discusses her initial reluctance to tackle the subject of aging and perimenopause, fearing societal judgments. However, extensive conversations with women and professionals inspired her to address these themes authentically.

"I felt that this subject actually wasn't separate from those more important Things."
[26:51] Miranda July

Themes of Aging and Identity

The novel navigates the protagonist's struggle with aging, libido loss, and the desire for personal transformation. Miranda explores societal expectations of women and the internal conflicts that arise during significant life transitions.

"We become less interesting, you know, so early, so young."
[28:20] Miranda July

Personal Reflections and Societal Impact

Miranda shares how writing the book became a medium for her own self-discovery and confronting subconscious biases, particularly towards older women. She emphasizes the importance of honesty in personal narratives to foster community and understanding.

"Writing can do that. I get a lot of messages from older women who say, like, oh, this all happened to me."
[50:32] Miranda July

Balancing Personal Life and Creativity

Discussing her own life changes, Miranda delves into the challenges of co-parenting post-separation and maintaining individuality within family dynamics. She reflects on the necessity of personal space for creative growth and self-realization.

"My biggest worry was that they wouldn't get to see me as I really was."
[37:19] Miranda July

Early Influences and Personal Growth

Miranda reminisces about her youth, drawn to the punk and riot grrrl scenes for their inclusivity and authenticity. Her early work, including her first plays at punk clubs, laid the foundation for her artistic endeavors.

"I put my first plays on in a punk club in 924 Gilman... it actually was a structure."
[46:36] Miranda July

Final Reflections

Miranda concludes by highlighting the universal resonance of her work, expressing joy in connecting with readers who find solace and reflection in her stories. She looks forward to continuing her exploration of personal and societal themes in future projects.

"It's a reframing of their life to have the community from the book."
[50:32] Miranda July

---

Conclusion

This Fresh Air episode provides a deep dive into the lives and minds of Ronny Chieng and Miranda July. Ronny offers a candid look at the intersection of comedy and politics, while Miranda explores the nuanced journey of midlife transformation. Both guests exemplify the power of art and humor in navigating and reflecting upon personal and societal challenges.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Ronny Chieng
  “Daddy, Daddy, when I grow up, I want to be a stand up comedian. Just like you...”
  [03:44]

• Ronny Chieng
  “Nothing happened... So just going off of history and past evidence...”
  [12:33]

• Miranda July
  “We become less interesting, you know, so early, so young.”
  [28:20]

• Miranda July
  “Writing can do that... I'm stunned to realize that I wasn't alone.”
  [50:32]

---

Key Takeaways

• Ronny Chieng emphasizes the role of comedy in political discourse and maintains optimism about American democratic institutions despite challenges posed by political figures like Donald Trump.
• Miranda July courageously addresses the stigmas surrounding aging and perimenopause, using her novel All Fours to foster dialogue and community among women experiencing similar life changes.
• Both guests highlight the importance of personal authenticity and resilience in their respective fields, illustrating how art and humor can drive meaningful conversations and personal growth.

---

This summary is based on the transcript provided and aims to encapsulate the essence of the Fresh Air episode featuring Ronny Chieng and Miranda July.

Transcript

[Carvana Ad]

This message comes from Carvana. Sell your car the convenient way, enter your license plate or vin, answer a few questions and get a real offer in seconds. Go to Carvana.com today from WHYY in.

[Terry Gross]

Philadelphia, I'm Terry Gross with Fresh AIR Weekend.

[Ronny Chieng]

This is the Daily show with your host, Ronny Chang.

[Terry Gross]

Today we hear from Ronny Chang. After Trevor Noah started hosting the Daily show in 2015, he brought on Chang as a field correspondent who could offer a global perspective. Now Chang is one of the show's hosts. He's third generation Chinese Malaysian and grew up in Malaysia, Singapore and the US he has a new Netflix comedy special. Also, filmmaker and writer Miranda July talks about her novel All Fours. It's about a 45 year old married woman who her erotic affair with no actual sex beginning perimenopause and the related fears of losing her libido and getting older. That's coming up on Fresh AIR Weekend.

[Ronny Chieng]

This message comes from BetterHelp. Every January brings you 365 blank pages waiting to be filled. What do you want your 2025 story to be? Therapy can help you craft the next chapters with purpose. BetterHelp offers therapy 100% online with a diverse network of over 30,000 therapists worldwide. Visit BetterHelp h e l p.com NPR today to get 10% off your first month.

[Carvana Ad]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Lisa Good sleep should come naturally, and with the new Natural Hybrid mattress, it can. A collaboration between Leesa and West Elm, the Natural Hybrid is expertly crafted from natural late natural wool and certified safe foams to elevate your sleep sanctuary and support a greener tomorrow. Plus, every purchase helps fuel Leesa's work with shelters and those in need. Visit leesa.com to learn more. That's leesa.com support for this podcast and.

[Ronny Chieng]

The following message come from the NPR Wine Club, which has generated over $1.75 million to support NPR programming, whether buying a few bottles or joining the club. You can learn [e-mail] podcast must be 21 or older to purchase.

[Terry Gross]

This is FRESH AIR Weekend. I'm Terry Gross. My first guest is comic, actor and political satirist Ronny Chang. He became a correspondent for the satirical news show the daily show in 2015 after Trevor Noah asked him to audition. Now Chang is one of the rotating correspondents who anchor the show. He also co stars in the new Hulu series Inter Chinatown. He had a memorable funny scene in Crazy Rich Asians as a wealthy investment banker in Singapore. Ronny Chang has a new Netflix Comedy special called Love to Hate it, which starts streaming tomorrow. He brings an international perspective to his comedy. He was born in Malaysia, where his grandparents emigrated from China. From age 3 to 7, he lived in Manchester, New Hampshire, where his parents attended college. Then the family returned to Malaysia, which is basically across the bridge from Singapore, so he spent a lot of time there. He attended college in Australia, where he got his BA in finance and his law degree while also doing standup comedy. Let's start with a clip from his new comedy special. This is from a section about how he and his wife aren't ready for children, but his wife had her eggs harvested for possible future use. He's imagining what his child, if he ever has one, might say to him.

[Ronny Chieng]

Daddy, Daddy, when I grow up, I want to be a stand up comedian. Just like you just feel the Chinese coming on, right? Stand up comedy? Are you out of your mind? That's not even a real job. Like, what do you think is gonna happen? You're just gonna run around America and tell jokes to strangers who don't give a about your mental health? And even if you do somehow manage to overcome the odds and make it to even a semi professional level as a standup comedian, do you think there's any chance in hell you be funnier than me? Daddy's a borderline arena act in some markets. Have you seen my IMDb page? I mean, everything. I will crush your career. Bulgari. Your mother and I didn't spend a fortune to make an A grade blastocyst for them to become a B grade comedian. I will never watch anything you do go to law school is what my father said to me.

[Terry Gross]

Renu Cheng, welcome to Fresh Air. It's a pleasure to have you on the show.

[Ronny Chieng]

Thank you. Thanks for having me on. And I'd like to note the contrast between the yelling of that clip and how calm the rest of the interview will be.

[Terry Gross]

What else did your father say to you when he found out you wanted to be a comedian?

[Ronny Chieng]

He said no white person will ever buy a ticket to go watch you.

[Terry Gross]

Wow. Did you think that that might be true?

[Ronny Chieng]

No, I didn't think that was true. But I didn't tell him I was gonna go do it. I went to go do it and then he found out, like after I was. I've been doing stand up comedy for about two years and then he found out and then, you know, and, and he was trying to protect me. You know, he was, he was worried. He was worried about what was gonna happen, you know, what my future was Going to be. And then later on he got behind it.

[Terry Gross]

Nevertheless. Nevertheless. When you were on the Daily show and you started on the Daily show, you didn't tell your mother?

[Ronny Chieng]

No, I didn't tell them I got hired on the show.

[Terry Gross]

What were you afraid of?

[Ronny Chieng]

It wasn't so much afraid. It was that I didn't want to brag about small achievements. I just wanted to do the work. I didn't want to tell them that I joined this institution, which, quite frankly, they didn't really know about anyway, and make it sound as though I made it, quote, unquote, you know what I mean? So I genuinely had.

[Terry Gross]

It's a big achievement. That's not a small achievement.

[Ronny Chieng]

Sure. But I don't know. I think the work comes first. You know, getting the job is one thing, but then can you do the job? And so it honestly just came out of kind of humility, of like, oh, yeah, I'm on the Daily show, but doesn't mean I've done anything yet, so why tell them? You know, like, my philosophy was, like, just do the job and then maybe they'll hear good things about you and then that will be the. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't need the flowers from them at that point.

[Terry Gross]

You deprive them of bragging rights, quite.

[Ronny Chieng]

Frankly, if you want to talk about bragging rights for them. Once I started doing decent work and people started liking what I was doing, then they would go up to them and be like, hey, your son is on the Daily Show. So, you know, I think. Which I think is better than you coming out and trying to brag about something that, you know, at that point, I hadn't even been on screen yet. You know, I'm not sure how popular the Daily show is in Singapore or Malaysia, so I'd rather just do the work and then hopefully people like it.

[Terry Gross]

So you grew up mostly in Malaysia, which is one bridge away from Singapore. You compared it to me to how New York is to New Jersey.

[Ronny Chieng]

Yes. Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

Or how Philadelphia is to New Jersey on the opposite side.

[Ronny Chieng]

Sure. I'll let you guess which one's New York, which one's New Jersey in this analogy. But yes, it's just a bridge across that is called the Causeway. People cross the bridge from Johor Bahru, Malaysia, to Singapore every day. Every morning, people wake up in Malaysia, go to work in Singapore, and come back braving the traffic and the fumes and, you know, the immigration.

[Terry Gross]

So were you exposed to much standup in Malaysia or Singapore?

[Ronny Chieng]

No, was not the standup I was exposed to was in New Hampshire when my parents would play Seinfeld, the sitcom. And so you would see Seinfeld do stand up in his interstitials, right in between the narrative, he do stand up. And I remember asking my mom, like, hey. And that was the first time I saw. I even knew that that could be a art form, just standing there and telling jokes with no other props. And, you know, it's just you and a microphone. And I told my mom, like, hey, I want to try that someday. And my mom was like, oh, okay, cool. And I was like 4 years old.

[Terry Gross]

You said you were introduced to Jewish people from Seinfeld. Yes, Larry David and Jerry Seinfeld. So what did it make you think Jewish people were like?

[Ronny Chieng]

To be honest, when we watched it, when we were watching in Malaysia and Singapore, we think that they're white people, at least for me, anyway. I didn't realize, like, they were, like, a special type of ethnicity. I thought they were just a type of white person. And so when you're watching it, you're like, you get little samples of Jewishness in it. Right. They'll drop a Yiddish word. They'll have a Hanukkah. They'll have little things here and there where you slowly start to be like, oh, these. I think they're different to white American people. And we didn't have any stereotypes, so I just thought they were New Yorkers. You know what I mean? I didn't think, like, oh, this is Jewish behavior, or this is a Jewish joke, or I just thought, these are New Yorkers. That's how New Yorkers talk. Until I came here. I realized, oh, it's its own thing.

[Terry Gross]

Your new comedy special was filmed in Honolulu.

[Ronny Chieng]

Yes.

[Terry Gross]

Where Doogie Kamealoha. Yes. Thank you. This is like a Doogie Howser adjacent series.

[Ronny Chieng]

It was a reboot.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, yeah. A reboot that you were in. And you're very popular there, or so you say.

[Ronny Chieng]

Okay, yeah, sure.

[Terry Gross]

And you say you have a lot of MAGA friends there.

[Miranda July]

Yes.

[Terry Gross]

And on the Daily show, you spent a lot of time satirizing Trump.

[Ronny Chieng]

Yes.

[Terry Gross]

So how do you get around arguing about politics with your mega friends?

[Ronny Chieng]

That's a great question. I think, first of all, one, we might be in media silos. So the stuff I say on a Daily show might not actually ever reach my mega friends because we're all so siloed in our media consumption. That's one. And then two, I think that decent people have a sense of humor about things, you know, So I wouldn't Take the comment section as reality in terms of what the reaction is to a clip in the comment section from MAGA people about political clip. I don't necessarily think they would react that way in real life face to face. And third of all, Hawaii is a very different vibe. You know, like Hawaii people know how to get along for the most part. I think in Hawaii, they know how to put community before themselves, which is very un American, by the way. That this idea that in Hawaii, you know, everyone's very generous and you get more than you give in Hawaii if you come with the right energy. And so I like to think that in Hawaii, I always try to come with the right energy. I won't be so presumptuous to say that I always managed to nail it. But I think I come with the right energy and I think the locals and the Hawaiians, they respond to that. So I, you know, they can be hardcore MAGA people, but they, you know, they're totally cool with me, as far as I know.

[Terry Gross]

You say you love America. This is the country that puts showbiz above everything.

[Ronny Chieng]

Oh, you were just quoting my special. Yeah, yeah.

[Terry Gross]

And then you get paid for saying f the president, and then money comes in and you say, if you did this in Malaysia, jail.

[Ronny Chieng]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

But now Trump has an enemies list. He's threatening retribution and he's trying to revoke TV network broadcast licenses.

[Ronny Chieng]

Yes.

[Terry Gross]

So how do you feel about insulting Trump now?

[Ronny Chieng]

Those are all very concerning. Don't get me wrong. I think if he does any of that, it is upsetting and subverts the legal process in many ways, in some ways more blatant than others. My answer to that is we had four years of him and a Daily show was making fun of him every day during those four years, and essentially nothing happened. So just going off of history and past evidence, which is all I kind of have to go by right now, is that, that kind of, you know, for me, that's kind of a sign of how it's going to be. You know, his bluster versus his actual actions. I reserve the right to change my opinion. If, if we all end up in jail, if we all end up in jail, then I will. I'll probably be wrong. But maybe I'm just. This is just wishful thinking on my part. But, yeah, he said a lot of concerning things about the law. But I think ultimately I believe in American institutions. I believe in checks and balances. You know, I believe that the entire founding of America was geared around having a weak federal executive who is unable to kind of use the government to go after citizens individually. I think that's the whole premise of America. And so because of that, I'm a bit more hopeful.

[Terry Gross]

Well, I hope, I hope you're right.

[Ronny Chieng]

Yeah, I hope I'm right, too, by the way. What do I know? I'm just a comic just, you know, just making dick jokes. But that's what I hope, and that's why I believe and that's why I'm still here.

[Terry Gross]

My guest is comic and actor Ronny Chang. His new comedy special, love to Hate it, is now streaming on Netflix. We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR weekend.

[Ronny Chieng]

Wait, wait, don't tell me. Fresh Air up first, NPR News. Now Planet Money TED Radio hour through the NPR Politics Podcast Code Switch Embedded books we love Wild Card are just some of the podcasts you can enjoy, sponsor free with NPR. Get all sorts of perks across more than 20 podcasts with the bundle option. Learn more at plus.NPR.org Evergreen trees are.

[Terry Gross]

Pacific Northwest icons in journalism. An evergreen story isn't tied to one news cycle. It goes deep and helps you understand the world. The Evergreen is also a podcast from OPB about the Northwest. I'm Jen Chavez. Listen to the Evergreen podcast from OPB every Monday, part of the NPR Network.

[Ronny Chieng]

For every headline, there's also another story about the people living those headlines. On weekdays, up first brings you the day's biggest news. On Sundays, we bring you closer with.

A single story about the people, places.

And moments reshaping our world. Your news made personal every Sunday on the up first podcast from npr.

[Terry Gross]

This is FRESH AIR weekend. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Ronny Chang. He's a field correspondent and one of the rotating anchors on the Daily Show. He co stars in the new Hulu series Interior Chinatown. His new comedy special, love to Hate it, is streaming on Netflix. Let's hear a clip from the Daily Show. And this is from the day after Kamala Harris conceded. So it's two days after Election Day, and you say Trump's promised a peaceful transfer of power. And then you say let's hear it for the bare minimum of democracy. And here's the rest of the clip.

[Ronny Chieng]

So I guess American democracy still works as long as the guy who likes overthrowing the government wins the election, because then he won't overthrow the government. So with the transfer happening, we're gonna be talking about Trump again every day for another four years, I guess. And I, for one, did not think that when I came out of the jungles of Malaysia to do comedy, that I would be making jokes about Donald Trump every day for 13 years straight. 13 years. I don't talk about anybody as much. I would talk about my mom as much as I talk about this guy. I don't talk about my wife as much as I talk about this guy. Yo, my wife thinks I'm having an emotional affair with him. I'm gonna be talking about this guy on my deathbed, okay? Which I assume will be in three years when he somehow brings back the bubonic plague. And you might be sitting at home saying, well, Ronnie, why don't you just shut the up about Trump? Well, for the same reason CNN doesn't shut the up about him. Money. Lots and lots of money. So let's get these dollars right now and get back to Donald Trump.

[Terry Gross]

That's not really true about the money.

[Ronny Chieng]

I'm sure partially true. There's some truth to that.

[Terry Gross]

Okay, so you got on the Daily show after Trevor Noah became the anchor, and you knew him from performing at the same comedy festival in Melbourne, Australia, which is where you went to college. How surprised were you to get the call?

[Ronny Chieng]

Extremely surprised, because we weren't necessarily friends. He was obviously much more successful than me in the festival circuit, so we rarely crossed paths. I ended up performing with him for the first time in Canada at Just for Laughs in Montreal. And that's when he was very friendly to me at the show. He was very complimentary. He said, it's great. You know, what you're doing is great. And I said, oh, thanks so much. I didn't think too much about it, right? And then maybe two years later, I get this email to audition for the Daily show, and I was like. It was like a dream come true. I couldn't believe it, you know? And so I still remember doing the audition in my apartment in Melbourne and sending it in and then getting the call back to come to New York City and audition for the Daily show in New York City, which was obviously, you know, a huge deal if you're coming from Australia. And so I know I did not expect to get it at all. It was very much him who put the spotlight on me. As in, the Daily show would never have found me if not for Trevor insisting that I get on. And again, I'm not his closest friend. You know, I don't even think I'm his funniest friend. He just really was adamant that he wanted an Asian person on the show because he felt that Asian people are, like, half of the world's population, but there's no presence on the Daily Show. And I guess at that time he was thinking of a more international show. Right. So he wanted someone who could talk to these issues. So I'm just lucky that I was the recipient of his search. You know, it could have been anybody.

[Terry Gross]

How familiar were you with the show?

[Ronny Chieng]

Very familiar. I've been following US Politics since the West Wing came out. Was watching it religiously and then started, you know, always reading about U.S. presidential history. I'm a U.S. president nerd. And the Daily show, we were watching. As soon as we were able to illegally download it in Australia, we would torrent like the Daily show and the Colbert Report and watch it. So I huge fan. I was watching all the time.

[Terry Gross]

What I read about when Trevor Noah resigned is that you had just done a bit and then without you knowing that Trevor Noah was resigning. Yes, he resigns on the air right after you're on. Were you on camera at first moment?

[Ronny Chieng]

Yes.

[Terry Gross]

You were on camera?

[Ronny Chieng]

Yes. There's a photo of me standing there, not knowing what to do. I was in the studio right next to him, but obviously off his camera. But there was a camera on me because I was doing a segment with him, as you said, and then we finished the segment, and then usually he says, okay, everybody, Ron Chang, everybody. And then everyone applauds and I leave, leave the studio. But he didn't do that this time. He explained why he was leaving the show on air. And no sign of it. There was no sign. I didn't know he was doing that.

[Terry Gross]

Why did he do it that way?

[Ronny Chieng]

I don't know. He's a very smart guy, and I trust his judgment on everything. And I'm sure he had his reasons, you know, and I can't speak to them, but I'm sure he had his reasons to do it because it seems like a pretty extreme thing to do.

[Terry Gross]

Maybe he didn't want anybody to leak it.

[Ronny Chieng]

Maybe he didn't want anyone to talk him out of it. I don't know.

[Terry Gross]

Ah, that's a possibility.

[Ronny Chieng]

Yeah. But, yeah, maybe you don't want anyone to leak it. That's also a possibility.

[Terry Gross]

Or, you know, what was the expression on your face like as you heard him resigning?

[Ronny Chieng]

I was like, is this a bit? And then in my head, I was also like, well, we're not live. You know what I mean? Like, he could say that, and then we could just edit it if he changes his mind. So I was like, this sounds serious. I don't know what's going on. I'm a person who. I think I do a decent job at minding my own business. So I wasn't like, what was going on? I wasn't trying to, like, insert myself into this situation. You know what I mean? I was like, oh, man, what's going on? It sounds like he is going through some stuff, and so I hope he's okay. You know, that was my primary thought.

[Terry Gross]

You might have also been thinking, uh, oh, what happens to the Daily Show? What happens to my job?

[Ronny Chieng]

Um, you know, honestly, I wasn't thinking that because I was here because of Trevor. If I lose the job because of Trevor, I was okay with that. You know what I mean? I wasn't supposed to have this job anyway, so. So I've always adopted this very nihilistic view about the job and doing it. Not nihilistic, like, I care about the job. I love. It's the best job in comedy. But I adopted this very, like, live in the present, I guess, Buddhist, you know, don't worry about the future kind of mentality with the job. And the second thing is also, I believe that America will always have a daily satirical news show. You know, I think of all the countries in the world, if America can't do a daily satirical news show, like, which country can? We have the most freedom of speech. We have the most resources for show business. We have infrastructure for comedic talent where people can write and get better as performers and writers and can aspire to be hired on shows like this. And we have the craziest political news. Like, if all those factors combine, if America cannot have a daily news satirical show, no one can.

[Terry Gross]

Ronny Chang, thank you so much for coming on our show. It's been a pleasure.

[Ronny Chieng]

Thank you so much for having me. This is a real honor to be on this show and to speak to you. Thank you so much.

[Terry Gross]

Ronny Chang's new Netflix comedy special, Love to Hate it is streaming on Netflix. My next guest, Miranda July, was a bit afraid of what people would think of her after publishing her second novel, All Fours. The book is partly about sexuality and has some very explicit sexual scenes, but that's true of many books. Her larger fear was the theme of a woman reaching midlife and entering perimenopause, the time in a woman's life when she's transitioning into menopause and is experiencing some of the many symptoms associated with that time of life. For her main character, the fears are of losing her libido, dealing with strange moods, anxiety, and the thought of being seen as an older woman. But the book has gotten the opposite reaction. Miranda July feared it was on many of 2024's 10 best lists, including in the New York Times, in which it was described as the year's literary conversation piece, and in the New Yorker, where it was described as, quote, a study of crisis, the crisis being how middle age changes sex, marriage and ambition. July's moving, very funny book is at once buoyant about the possibilities of starting over and clear eyed about its costs. Unquote. Our critic at large, John Powers, described All Fours as hilariously unpredictable. All Fours story revolves around a 45 year old woman, a slightly famous artist, writer and performer who decides to take a break from the routines she's stuck in and drive from her home in LA to New York. Her husband thinks it's a good idea and even suggests the best route for the drive. But about 30 minutes away from home, she stops at a gas station and feels this electric connection to a young man there and he seems to feel it too. They end up having an affair in a motel room she rents and redecorates and she spends the entire three weeks there. Their affair is both sexual and chaste. They're both married. He won't engage sexually, which would be disloyal to his wife, but they touch and dance and the intentional eroticism becomes all consuming for her. But then the three weeks are up, she returns home and has enormous trouble re entering her life as a wife and mother. Miranda July is also a filmmaker, actor, performance artist and visual artist. Miranda July, welcome to FRESH air. It's such a good book. I really enjoyed reading it and I'm looking forward to talking with you about it. So you were afraid to write this book and what people would think of you. Elaborate on what your biggest fears were.

[Miranda July]

I mean, I think fear in general was also why I wrote the book. Like I upon turning 40, which was a few years before I started writing it, it seemed like this, this grim time was suddenly approaching that was very vague, like this time of a woman who's no longer young. And I wanted to not write about that because so many women I admired, so many writers had written about more important things, right? Like they had not focused on the people trying to shame them or the shame they felt themselves. They focused on important subjects. But the more that I got older and I started writing this book at 45 and the more that I talked to other women and gynecologists and naturopaths, the more I felt that this subject actually wasn't separate from those more important Things.

[Terry Gross]

Well, one thing about getting older is I think Wikipedia has relieved the burden of that, because for most people, their birth date is on the Wikipedia page. And so you can't really hide it, even if you want to anymore. And I resent the fact that women, especially, are supposed to hide their age. Like, why can't we own it? Why can't we proclaim it? You know, why should we have to reinforce the idea that a woman getting older is a really terrible thing?

[Miranda July]

Right. I mean, we shouldn't have to reinforce it for sure, but it does. Like, I think people. I don't totally want to blame women when there's real repercussions, you know, economically, just in their sense of what's possible in the world, you know, so it's a tricky line. Like, yes, I sort of, obviously, am on the side of declaring it, but I am kind of often. I'm just being honest here because so much of the book is about, like, not trying to be less ashamed than I actually am, not trying to seem less ashamed, because I feel like then you can't evolve. Like, if you're hiding the place where you're actually at, then it's hard to get to the next place. So when I say I'm 50, I am always a little disappointed when the person doesn't look shocked.

[Terry Gross]

Oh. Like, oh, but you look 35. That kind of thing.

[Miranda July]

When they just sort of are like, yeah, like, I still have that in me despite having declared all that stuff a massive construction. You know, like a best construction ever. That we become less interesting, you know, so early, so young. Right. 45. I mean, like, why was I thinking about this at 45? But I was.

[Terry Gross]

There's a line in your book where you're buying something from an older woman and you think about how you sometimes really hate old women. And so.

[Miranda July]

Well, it's not. Yeah. We're gonna have to decide. Are we saying you.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, I'm sorry. The character. The character. The character.

[Miranda July]

I mean, we can get into that. But, you know, the narrator's saying, so the character.

[Terry Gross]

This is where the character has gone to the hotel. She's felt this, like, erotic charge from this younger man. She's 45, he's 31. Who she met at. Who she looked at at a gas station, and he looked back at her, and then they met briefly in a diner. So she's unpacking her suitcase at this motel, and the reading is about what she's thinking as she's unpacking her clothes and which ones she's going to leave in the suitcase and which one she's going to actually unpack and wear.

[Miranda July]

Right? Yeah. So she leaves the sort of more androgynous styles in the suitcase. I left these things in my suitcase in favor of my more overtly feminine and form fitting clothes. Heels and pencil skirts, cropped sweaters, shirtwaist dresses with tight belts around the smallest part of my waist. Every old thing had a modern counterbalance. Past age 40, you had to be careful with vintage. I didn't want to be mistaken for an elderly woman wearing the clothes from the 1960s of her youth. Young people especially had trouble making distinctions between ages over 40. When I got my first Patti Smith tape, horses, at 22, Smith was only 49, but I didn't think of her as a contemporary person. I wasn't even sure she was still alive because the COVID of Horses was a black and white photograph. And instead of knowing this was a stylistic choice, like vintage clothes, I unconsciously associated the record with the deep past of black and white movies. If anyone asked, I would have probably managed to assign the album to the right decade. But most of life is a vapor of unconscious associations, never brought to light. A good way to check your outfit is by running past the mirror. Or better yet, make a video of yourself running past your phone. How old was that blur of a woman? Was she from the past or was she modern? And where was she going in such a hurry? I walked around Monrovia in a red shirtwaist dress and white wedge heels. The commercial areas weren't really built for walking, but there were some nice residential neighborhoods. Several times I passed teenage girls wearing backpacks, their breasts inflated by the hormones in cow's milk and barely covered by tank tops. Whenever I saw them coming, I pretended I was from another country, projecting the air of someone so foreign she could not understand or be hurt by anything American.

[Terry Gross]

Did you share a similar almost fear of older women or a dislike of them that your character has?

[Miranda July]

I think I was catching myself around this time. I kept sort of noticing what I was thinking about older women and noticing the way that I might dismiss someone or not give them sort of the full benefit of an interior life or an erotic life, or think of them as like a sad character kind of for no reason, right? Like this is just like someone I'm seeing in passing. And by the time I was writing the book, I was aware like, oh, that that fear or hatred of older women is of course self hatred, you know, because I will become that and to some degree I already am that to people younger than me, you know, so it's like a kind of slippery zone.

[Terry Gross]

My guest is Miranda July. Her latest novel is called All Fours. We'll hear more of our conversation after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH air weekend. On NPR's Book of the Day podcast, we hear from all sorts of writers making bold arguments, like the late President Jimmy Carter on Citizens United.

[Ronny Chieng]

So I think it's completely distorted the democratic purity or legitimacy of our election.

[Miranda July]

In the United States.

[Terry Gross]

We hear about his life as a writer and from his biographer about President Carter's complex legacy. Listen to Book OF THE DAY from NPR wherever you get your podcasts on.

[Ronny Chieng]

The embedded podcast from npr. What is it like to live under.

[Terry Gross]

Years of state surveillance?

[Miranda July]

So many people have fear of losing their families.

[Terry Gross]

For years, the Chinese government has been detaining hundreds of thousands of ethnic Uyghurs.

[Ronny Chieng]

This is the story of one family torn apart.

[Terry Gross]

Listen to the Black Gate on the.

[Ronny Chieng]

Embedded podcast from npr.

[Terry Gross]

All episodes are available now. This is FRESH AIR weekend. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Miranda July. Her latest novel is called All Fours. It's about a woman wanting to shake up her life. She's thinking of leaving her marriage and is having a very erotic affair. When she discovers she's entering perimenopause, she fears the best part of her life may be ending and she may lose her libido. She worries about getting older. There are parallels to Miranda July's life. Your character is experiencing things and fears that relate to perimenopause. But some of the things she's experiencing she doesn't know relate to perimenopause until she actually goes to her gynecologist. Was it that way for you, that you had symptoms of perimenopause that you were attributing to other things?

[Miranda July]

Well, I had a different experience from the narrator. I actually had this amazing doctor, Dr. Maggie Nay, who started talking with me about it in my early 40s. I may have been just 40. And she's like, look, we're gonna take your blood and see where your hormone levels are at. And that's just to get a baseline so that as you get older and your hormone levels drop, we'll kind of understand the speed at which that's happening and when you might want to do bioidentical hormones if you want that. And I always remember at the end of describing all this, which was a longer conversation, she said, I'm so excited for you. And she didn't Mean that as a joke. And I not knowing anything else about this, never having had a conversation about it in any other time in my life, not having had a conversation about it ever before with anyone, I just smile. I just dumbly smiled and was like, ha. Yeah, you never know what's coming next, you know, like, this is exciting. Like go from ballet slippers to pointe shoes, you know, like it's always something new. I don't know, it didn't seem inherently bad, but then, you know, as I would talk to my friends, I was like the only one who knew anything.

[Terry Gross]

So one of the things the book is about is the feeling that you need to change your life, but not knowing how to do it and knowing that there will be consequences and rewards if you do. And part of the consequences will be for the other people in your life. If you're leaving a marriage, if you're breaking up a home in a way that will affect your young child. And I know you've experienced similar things and this might be too personal, but was there a lot you had to weigh before changing your life? Knowing that it might be the right thing for you, but there would also be consequences that everyone in your family would be facing, including you? Because I'm sure there'd be a downside as well.

[Miranda July]

Yeah, I mean, my changing life moment, it wasn't like I alone in my head was coming up with that I had to do this. It was like an ongoing conversation with, with my husband at the time and very slow. And we both, I think as much as we didn't want to traumatize our kid, we also didn't want to traumatize ourselves. And we were very attached to ourself and the triangle of our family. So what exactly had to change and what could stay the same? I feel like it's still changing. I mean, kind of as long as we're a family, which will hopefully be forever. You know, you've got three changing people in it whose needs are changing and who are trying to be honest. And I guess that was the big shift, was like, oh, we're not going to pretend we're not changing anymore. And that a lot of those changes have nothing to do with each other, you know, or this or this thing that we've built. But you know, as much as you worry about the kid, my biggest worry was that they wouldn't get to see me as I really was. And I say they because they're non binary. There's just one kid because I started to realize, oh, there's a Whole lot of myself that happens outside the home with my best friend or in my studio alone being creative or just me alone in the world. Like, I feel like I'm starting to feel like this part that used to just be like me on a break or, you know, at work, this may be the lion's share of me. This might be kind of what I have to offer them as far as one way to live, one way to be. But actually when I go home, I'm being like a smaller version and not kind of like I just less interesting to. Even to myself. Like, because I was biting my tongue a lot and no one was asking me to do this, by the way. Like, it's is very personal. I know a lot of people who. The freest they feel is in their home and you know, the world is terrifying. But. And so I began to feel like something I had to do for my child. Like I need to change these circumstances so they can see who I really am.

[Terry Gross]

So this may be too personal, but please don't answer it if it is you and your former husband. Is that the right way to describe it? Lived together for a while with your child, but more as friends than as a married couple. How did that work? I think a lot of people would be curious about that because I think there are a lot of couples who separate, who remain friends, but they don't want to be romantically involved anymore and they want more freedom outside of the home. But I could see where there'd also be a lot of discomfort and tension and nervousness around each other. So if there's anything that you can offer about how that arrangement worked out.

[Miranda July]

Yeah, I mean, I. It is interesting. I feel a little different since the book came out. Like, I've now read so many emails and messages and comments on my substack about women at this point or women doing things differently or trying to figure this out that I no longer. I'm like, is there a way to answer this question that isn't specific to me? Because I actually don't feel like. I think at the time I felt very unique and very like no one's doing what I'm doing. And both worried by that and sort of proud. And now I'm like, no, this is incredibly widespread. At least lots of thoughts about it. And then people trying to figure out how to do it. I mean, the thing of living together, it's what you're used to. Obviously that's not going to work if you're incredibly embattled, you know, but if you're not, then it is kind of an opportunity to see who the other person is a bit more like, wow, this person who, like my long time pal, like, but I never could quite see what they were like when they're dating. You know, not that like you're necessarily getting any details or anything, but just like their energy, you know, because you were the person they were dating and now you're not. And like, yeah, there might be some sadness or strangeness about that, but you're also like, look at you, you're a person. Like, I never really gave you all of that. And meanwhile you're also getting it too. Like they're seeing you as a person more completely and nothing you do is threatening in the old way, you know, the way every new thing and change is like sort of threatening when you're in a couple sometimes. And if you know it's gonna be a lifelong relationship partly because of the child, but also cause, you know, life isn't that long and you've already invested so much time and energy with this person, maybe that's sort of interesting to get to see and be seen in this different way.

[Terry Gross]

Have you changed a lot having more space in your life on your own? Because I would imagine you co parent with your former husband and that you don't have your child every day to take care of. And in some ways that's a real loss. And in other ways it gains you some independence and personal time. And I wonder what that shift in time and that shift in the balance of independence versus having somebody dependent on you all the time has changed you, for better or worse, has changed your life or for better and worse.

[Miranda July]

So yeah, the four days, every other four days I'm alone or whoever I choose to sleep with, like in my 20s, like, it's, it's really like you really have to stop and think when you have that, that time alone where you're not responsible, like, what actually am I doing here in this life? Like, what do I feel like? And you keep. Just because you've unburdened yourself practically from this construction or these real responsibilities doesn't mean they just automatically lift off your shoulders. Like, most of my issues come from within, right? So suddenly you're like, oh, it wasn't all the construction of marriage or the patriarchy or it was those things, but they're inside me and I'm still running for dear life or replacing those constructions with new ones. You know, anything that'll fill up my time, take my time, please, you know, Instagram, whatever. Like, and so to actually be willing to take on that freedom. It's a real practice. Like it's. And I don't mean to make it sound hard or scary, it's only hard in the way that like a new habit is hard.

[Terry Gross]

So I want to talk about your formative years. You gravitated toward punk as a teenager and what drew you to it and what were your first experiences listening to punk rock or you know, going to clubs?

[Miranda July]

I mean I think I wasn't ever like, I'm not like a music head. So the thing that, that drew me to punk, especially as a teenager was first of all, it was an all ages scene. Like the clubs, like I could go to them, they weren't, they didn't have alcohol. And not only that, but the, the whole premise was you don't have to be taught. Like you can figure it out yourself. And that was great for me, who did not want to be taught by anyone anyways and wanted access to a, like a space, a world, a literal. I mean I put my first plays on in a punk club in 9:24 Gilman, a sort of seminal all ages punk club in Berkeley. And that was so great. Honestly, I would wish that on any teenager to have the freedom to do something outside of school. That while punk seems sort of lawless, it actually was a structure, you know, it did formalize what I was doing.

[Terry Gross]

You actually moved to Portland to be part of the riot grrrl scene?

[Miranda July]

Well, I moved to Portland to be with my girlfriend at the time and Riot Girl kind of had just happened. I'd say I sort of missed it slightly. But certainly the like the feminist underpinning was all there.

[Terry Gross]

One of the jobs that you had early on while trying to support yourself, I guess while you were doing your art was working at a peep show. How and why did you get that job?

[Miranda July]

Initially my girlfriend and I broke up. She moved out. We had to cover her rent. And I remember my friend at the time like how are we going to get this money really quickly, you know that, that we were missing. And she said, well, one of us is going to have to strip and it can't be me because I have glasses. And I was like, huh, okay. And so initially it was this club that I think is still there called Mary's. Mary's in Portland. But then I've had these kind of lifelong problems with my eyes. And there was smoking in the bars back then, so I couldn't really handle the smoke. So that's why I moved to the, the peep shows. Which is just like a box. You're not really sharing air with anyone.

[Terry Gross]

And you're separated by glass. Right.

[Miranda July]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

What did you learn doing that? About sexuality or about men? About yourself, about what it means to get really turned on looking at somebody who's basically on exhibit behind glass.

[Miranda July]

Hmm. Yeah. I mean, my main goal was to make, as, you know, much money. It still wasn't that much, but to make this amount of money in a short time so I could work on my, you know, what ended up being, like, my first book of short stories, my first feature film, you know, I needed the time was how I was thinking about it.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah.

[Miranda July]

I mean, I wouldn't recommend that job to my child or anyone else's child. But on the other hand, most jobs at that age are not so great.

[Terry Gross]

What were some of the conversations that you know about, about your book that you found most interesting? Like, what were some of the themes that you're glad your book provoked? You know, the themes in the conversations.

[Miranda July]

I mean, the things that make me most happy to read are, like, women who, while they were reading the book, felt kind of exposed. Like, oh, no, this is like my whole inner life exposed here in this book. And, you know, I've had people tell me that, like, they were reading it on the plane and they felt like they, at a certain point had to put it away, not because of the sexual content, but because, like, they were sitting next to their husband and it was all their true feelings that they weren't saying. And that's always kind of astonishing to me, like, oh, writing can do that. Like, I get a lot of messages from older women who say, like, oh, this all happened to me. My all fours time was 20 years ago. But I. I'm stunned to realize that I wasn't alone. I thought I was uniquely crazy or irresponsible or something. And so they're just. It's like a reframing of their life to have the community from the book.

[Terry Gross]

Well, I look forward to your next book. Thank you so much for being on our show.

[Miranda July]

Thank you so much, Terry.

[Terry Gross]

Miranda July's latest novel is called All Fours.

[Miranda July]

And Walk With Me over the Freeway and out to the sea. That's where we can always go when you really.

[Terry Gross]

Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our co host is Tanya Moseley. I'm Terry Gross.

[Ronny Chieng]

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Squarespace. Measure your end to end online performance with powerful website and seller analytics. Get insights, track sales metrics and more. Go to squarespace.com NPR for 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

[Carvana Ad]

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Energia, where everyone can invest in the world's top renewable energy markets and make an impact. With Energia, you can invest directly in solar projects that reduce carbon emissions. [e-mail] NPR support for this podcast and the following message come from ARM ARM CEO Rene Haas discusses leadership and the role of AI in national security with the head of Palantir's defense business, Mike Gallagher, in the latest episode of Tech Unheard, available on all podcast platforms.