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- [00:00]
Brittany Luce
This year, for the first time in NPR's history, public media is operating without federal funding. That means NPR needs your support now more than ever. I'm Brittany Luce from It's Been a Minute. Please do your part to keep independent, reliable news coverage strong and support the podcasts that get you through the day by making a gift for public media giving days. Head over to donate.NPR.org from why, why
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Terry Gross
in Philadelphia, I'm Terry Gross with FRESH AIR Weekend. Here today, Flea. He co founded the Red Hot chili peppers in 1982.
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Flea
From the first time we stepped on stage, we were intent on being the wildest band that ever existed on this planet.
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Terry Gross
We'll talk about how Flea's music and life have changed.
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Flea
Of course I've changed. And thank God I've changed. I was a lunatic. I was, you know, 19 going on 10.
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Terry Gross
Also, we hear from Nick Offerman. He stars on the new series Margot's Got Money Troubles. It's about a bright college freshman who gets pregnant and decides to keep the baby. Offerman plays her estranged father, a former pro wrestler who comes back into her life to help. Offerman is best known for playing Ron Swanson in Parks and Recreation. And Zach Galifianakis has a new gardening show. And David Biancooli has a review. This is FRESH AIR weekend. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Flea co founded the multiple Grammy winning band, the Red Hot chili peppers, in 1982. He's a songwriter and the band's bass player, known for his fast, percussive grooves. They started as an LA punk rock band when LA and New York were the punk capitals. Their lead singer initially rapped more than he sang. Flea has just released his first solo album, called Honora, and it's a big departure. Various styles of jazz figure into it. Flea's stepfather was a jazz musician, and listening to his music starting when Flea was seven, changed Flea's life in ways he's still grateful for. But Flea's stepfather was also addicted to heroin and alcohol, and that made home life unpredictable and sometimes dangerous, leaving Flea afraid to go home. He spent as much time as he could on the streets and with friends, often doing things that could have had serious consequences. On the new album, in addition to bass, Flea plays trumpet, the first instrument he learned to play. The album also reflects how Flea started studying music theory about 10 years ago. Honora includes original compositions by Flea as well as covers of songs by George Clinton and Frank Ocean. Tom York of Radiohead sings on one track, Nick Cave sings Wichita Lineman. The arrangements feature strings, brass and woodwinds. When I recorded this interview with Flea last week, we talked about his childhood, his. His relationship with his stepfather, the Chili Peppers being wild and how Flea and his music have changed. He wrote a memoir in 2019 titled Acid for the Children. Flea, welcome to FRESH AIR. Congratulations on the new album. So let's get to your music. I want to compare where you started from in terms of your recordings and where you are now. So let's start by listening to a brief part of the Red Hot Chili Pepper's first demo record.
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Flea
Wow, cool.
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Terry Gross
And this is Nevermind. You're of course, featured on bass.
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Flea
Never mind the Pac Jam. Oh, never mind the Gap Band. Never mind the Zap band. Never mind the votes gown. You're the red hat, silly. Double. Wow, Terry, good call on that one.
- [03:54]
Terry Gross
Okay, well, let's compare that to Frailed from your new album, Honora.
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Flea
Okay.
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Terry Gross
With you featured on trumpet and bass.
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David Biancooli
Yeah.
- [04:41]
Terry Gross
So what do you think, the 20 year old, you would have thought of the music from your new album?
- [04:48]
Flea
I would have been really happy with myself making music that I cared about, being a student of music, continuing to just love music. And when I listened back to, you know, net, the song Nevermind that you played for my first demo tape, and the feeling that I had making it and the feeling that I had when it, you know, we went around with that tape, playing it for people with our cassette tape, trying to get booked into clubs to get gigs. It's a similar feeling that I have now with the record that I just made, Honora. It's a feeling that I haven't really had since back then. And it's a feeling of I've made this music that is really, you know, obviously it's a collective. You know, the Chili Peppers made the music, but we made music. And I had a feeling that we are filling this place, an empty place in the world that hasn't been filled before. We've created this thing that is ourselves purely, so it can't be anybody else. And we're filling this new place, and it's a really beautiful feeling. And that's how I feel about the music that I've made with Anara. It's the same thing. Like, I feel like I'm making music that occupies its own place in the world, and that feels good to me.
- [06:07]
Terry Gross
Does the change in music represent a change in you? You're older, you're not in your 20s, you're in your 60s.
- [06:14]
Flea
Yep. Constantly. Yeah. I mean, of course. Even though back then, you know, when I made that music when I was 20. I think I was 20 years old when we recorded that. 19 or 20, I was listening to, you know, ethereal jazz music all the time. I grew up with jazz music, and I was listening to jazz music back then. But of course I've change, and thank God I've changed. I was a lunatic. You know what I mean?
- [06:42]
Terry Gross
Yeah, I know what you mean.
- [06:44]
Flea
Yeah. I mean, I was a street kid, and I was, you know, emotionally and in so many ways, you know, 19 going on 10, you know, and I continue to try to grow as a human being in all the ways, you know, emotionally, spiritually, to be more considerate of my fellow human beings. I mean, in every way. So it all feeds into the music, and it all feeds into the way that I interact with other people. And, yeah, I mean, I'm a different person. And, you know, I think this is something I think about a lot in a way that just like, as a parent, you know, I have three kids. One's 37, the other one is 20, and the other one is three. And I've been a different person for each one of them. You know, I've been a different kind of parent.
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Terry Gross
Oh, right. In a different stage of your life. Because their years are far apart.
- [07:34]
Flea
Yeah, they're all 17 years apart. And 17 years. If one is willing to feel the pain and suffering of being a human being, you're gonna grow. So I'm grateful for growth, and I'm grateful for humility, and I'm grateful to be a student.
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Terry Gross
You started playing trumpet as a child, and then you kind of gave up trumpet, more or less for the bass. After the Red Hot Chili Peppers formed, your stepfather was a jazz musician and he played bass. Tell us about the music that he played. I know it was jazz, but what kind of jazz? What's some of the music that your father and his friends introduced you to?
- [08:19]
Flea
Straight ahead, Jazz, bebop, the music exemplified by Charlie Parker and Fats Navarro and Flonius Monk. They play jazz like that. And my stepfather came into my life when I was about 7 years old, 6 or 7. And the first time that I ever saw him play with his friends in New York, his buddies came over to the house, set up in the living room, and they started throwing down. They played fast, they played furiously. They played with great tenderness. They played with great violence and physicality, and it was wild.
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Terry Gross
And you describe it like it was punk rock.
- [09:07]
Flea
Well, I. You know, for me, you know, all music is music, but it's. You know, there's a. So if I think of punk rock, right? Like, you take a song like Nervous Breakdown by Black Flag. And it goes, I'm about to have a nervous breakdown. My head really hurts, you know. And it's a beautiful song. I love it. And then you take a song like Cherokee, best played by Clifford Brown and Max Roach. And, like, the bass is going. And they're both very fast, very aggressive. They both have a beginning, a middle and an end. And they are both played by people yearning with every fiber of their being. To make sense of the world that they live in. But, you know, I love both and I'm studying. But anyway, so, yes, when I was a kid and I heard them playing that jazz, it just blew my mind and changed my life forever.
- [10:15]
Terry Gross
So you were born in Australia and lived there for the first four or five years of your life. When you were around four, your family moved to New York, where your father got a job. And he sounds like he was a very briefcase, follow the rules, working man, the same time every night kind of guy. Except for when he drank. And he loved you, but he also gave you the belt when you stepped out of line. They divorced when you were 7, and your mother wanted to live a more bohemian life. So she married your stepfather, the jazz bass player, Walter Urban Jr. Yep. And what was he like as a man? You describe him as sad. And he was also addicted to heroin. And he was very moody. Can you describe what it was like for you as a child to grow up with somebody whose music you loved, who introduced you to great people and great sounds, but who also could be, like, a scary person? He could be an irresponsible person and an inattentive parent?
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Flea
It was difficult.
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Zach Galifianakis
I.
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Flea
You know, when my mother and Walter. His name. Yeah, Walter. When they got together, it was really exciting at first. Cause, you know, my dad was very much by the rules. And every day was kind of the same. And there were these strict codes of conduct that you did not break or you got the belt. You know what I mean? You didn't mess up. You never embarrassed yourself. You never embarrassed the family. You played by the rules. And my dad was a very kind of prototypical 50s, responsible men. You know, you work hard, you wear your suit, and you get drunk at night. And my father was an alcoholic all of his life. But Walter, it was really fun. He was playing jazz music. You know, he dressed like a hippie, he wore dashikis. And he was like, cool, man. Far out. Yeah. Dig this Cannonball Adderly record, you know. And it was really exciting for me as A kid. And also, like, the rules went away. Like, all of a sudden, I would get up in the morning, go out in the street. No one asked where I was going. I went and did whatever I wanted all day long. So there's freedom in that, but also a lot of troubles in that because you're getting in trouble because there's no rules. And you kind of left to figure things out on your own. But it turned ugly with my stepfather. He was a drug abuser. He was an addict, he was an alcoholic. And he was prone to these wild fits of violence where something would set him off and he would just, like, start destroying the house, smashing all the windows, breaking everything. Everyone, like, begging him to stop. You know, kids being. We'd be terrified. We run out in the street, you know, and it grew violent. And his violence extended to, you know, to us. Even though he never hit me or beat me. But it got bad with my mother and, you know, and with my sister. And he beat both of them. He did.
- [13:27]
Terry Gross
Were you afraid to be at home?
- [13:28]
Flea
Of course it was, you know, a lot to deal with as a kid. But it's. You know, it all shaped me, and it's all a part of who I am. And at the same time, and this could not be understated, is that when I saw my stepfather played music and I didn't really understand it at the time, even though I understood it in a way that's been a part of me my whole life, is that when I saw him play the bass, he played with such aggressiveness and with such intensity that it was. I would see him get into this sort of animal state beyond thought, like this primal. Just attacking this instrument, one with it sweating, breathing, grunting, you know, playing this instrument, like, completely gone in the music. And I knew that he was using all that pain and anger and fear and anxiety that had made him act like he did, using it in a really healthy way and turning it into something beautiful, transmuting all this pain and anger into something beautiful. This, like, metamorphosis, this alchemy, which is, you know, music's greatest gift for him and for all of us who have enjoyed so much music that is made by people expressing their pain and fear and hope, you know, in sound.
- [14:58]
Terry Gross
Is there, like, a particular track that stands out to you from your own work, either from the new album or. Or from the Red Hot Chili Peppers, where you feel like you did the same thing, where you took, like, pain that you were feeling and turned it into beauty? Whether it's like beauty expressing Anger or frustration, sadness. Is there anything that really expresses that the most in your mind from your own music?
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Flea
When we recorded the track, when I played the trumpet for the track Willow Weep For Me, I remember feeling a great deal of sadness. And when I played that song, I remember feeling that like, let me please, you know, let me let go of this and express it into something beautiful. But I don't, you know, it's always a thing with me. Like, I mean, for the Chili Pepper shows for the last 45 years, it's like, I can't tell you how many zillions of time I get in and I'm, like, attacking my instrument and. And, you know, letting the rhythm throw me around like a rag doll on the stage that I'm, you know, hoping for healing and hoping for letting go of pain and anger and fear.
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Terry Gross
Well, we need to take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Flea, and you probably know him from the Red Hot Chili Peppers. After many albums with the Chili Peppers, he's recorded his first solo album, and it's called Honora. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR Weekend. So you actually have like, three, or at least three separate music spaces in your life when you're coming of age. You've got your father's jazz, which you love.
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Flea
Yep.
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Terry Gross
You have the Red Hot Chili Peppers, which starts off as a punk band kinda.
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Flea
Yep.
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Terry Gross
And then you have school orchestra and marching band. And that was like a different kind of discipline, probably. And, I mean, you must have been good. You won a national orchestra competition for playing Haydn's trumpet concerto.
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Flea
I did.
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Terry Gross
I mean, that takes some discipline.
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Flea
Yeah. And I didn't, you know, I really, you know, if I really would have had discipline, I think I could have gotten a lot better. But it came pretty naturally to me.
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Terry Gross
But did you love it? Did you love being in the setting?
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Flea
Yeah, that was the thing. I loved it. I loved playing in an orchestra. I loved playing. I played in the LA Junior Philharmonic for a little while, till one day I got real stoned and went there and made a mistake. And the guy put me out of the first chair into the junior chair, and I was embarrassed and never went
- [17:36]
Terry Gross
back in marching band. Did you wear a uniform?
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Flea
No, our school didn't have it like all the other schools had, the big epaulets and the big fur hats and all that stuff. And we didn't. We just had T shirts that said Fairfax Band on them. Yeah. And we were terrible marchers. We just kind of walked out into. Out into a clump in the middle of the field. But we were good, though. We were good. We used to play Sir Duke by Stevie Wonder, Which was Stevie Wonder's tribute to Duke Ellington. And, yeah, we were pretty funky. I remember us being like. I remember feeling excited about the music.
- [18:14]
Terry Gross
Describe what you were like on stage in those early years of the Chili Peppers and how your background in gymnastics, surfing and other sports may have figured into what you were able to do on stage.
- [18:27]
Flea
Well, I think, you know, from the jump, all of us literally jump. Yeah, we wanted to be. From that point, from the first time we stepped on stage, we were intent on being the wildest band that ever existed on this planet. And we wanted to express that in the way we dressed, the way we moved, the way we spoke. We wanted to be shocking. We wanted to cut a hole in the smoggy skies of Hollywood. We wanted to be a beam of cosmic light that came out of Ornette Coleman's saxophone. We wanted to. You know, we just wanted to be wild and so whatever, you know, I was always a very physical person. I always played sports. I loved to dance. I love to move. I found extreme freedom in movement. And like that thing I talked about earlier, about that state of enlightenment of getting beyond thought, I often had that from physical movement. And so that was just a big part of the whole operation, you know, and for all of us. You know, for all of us. And we love movement. We love dance. We invented our own funny dances just to feel free, to feel alive, to be excited and to, you know, we're entertainers. We wanted to do the thing.
- [19:47]
Terry Gross
So one of the things you did, and this is kind of famous, the band was dressed. I think it was all the band that. What you were dressed in was just a sock over genitals.
- [19:59]
Flea
Yeah. Mm. Socks on is what we called it. That was something like, you know, Hillel and Anthony and I, we would do that at home, like to be funny. You know, someone had come. I think it might have been Anthony came, like, walking out of his room with, you know, with just a sock. And, you know, we're all laughing and hanging out and we all did it and. Yeah. And I can't. I think I remember the first time we did it. We used to play this strip club.
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Terry Gross
Perfect place.
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Flea
Yeah. Yeah, we played this strip club on Santa Monica Boulevard called. Damn it. I wish I could remember the name of it. But anyways, we played there and I remember one Time we were playing and we went off stage and we're getting ready to do the encore. Everyone was screaming and yelling and Anthony, I probably said, sockman, sockman. And we're like, oh, great, great idea. And so we, you know, put on socks, stripped down, put on socks and came out and played and it was met warmly. And I think on that particular show we were opening up for another band called Royd Rogers and the Whirling Butt Cherries. It was just, it was Hollywood in the early 80s. Let me tell you stuff. People were just doing weird stuff to be weird. Like it was really embraced. There was this underground scene and I'm saying these things that some people might find repugnant. And that's cool, you know, I get it. But we grew up in Hollywood. We ran around on the streets in Hollywood. We were so used to, like. I lived in West Hollywood where it was nothing. Like when I was a kid, I would go walk down the street and I would see, you know, guys come. I'd be on my way to school and I'd see guys, gay leather guys walking out of a. Of a gay club, you know, making out in the street, dressed in nothing but leather chaps and chains. And like, like that's where I grew up, that's where I'm from. And I embraced it all, you know what I mean? I never, you know, I've always embraced it all.
- [22:07]
Terry Gross
Did you do the socks thing at punk clubs too?
- [22:10]
Flea
Yeah. Yeah. Then we then just became like a thing. Like it was so fun. And then we did it all the time.
- [22:14]
Terry Gross
Did you ever get busted for it, like in decency?
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Flea
Yeah, once in Green Bay, Wisconsin, we played a show and I can't remember if we did socks or we went completely naked, but I'm sure it was socks. Maybe a sock fell off, I don't know. But we played a show in this club. It was mid winter in Wisconsin, so snow everywhere, freezing. And we play this show and then like we walk off stage and there's the cops and they're like, out to the car. You guys are arrested for indecent exposure. And it's like, okay. And we walk out and you know, they're kind of like put us in single file and we're walking to the cop car. But me and Anthony look at each other and one of us is like, let's make a break for it. And we see this, like the club was kind of removed. Like, you know, on the outskirts of town and we see these woods and we just bolt and it's mid winter and snow and we are wearing nothing but socks. You know, they make us walk out in our socks in the freezing cold and we just bolt out the middle of the night. It's like midnight into these woods naked. And we just run and we get away and we run and we were like running for a while. We're like freezing, but we're like laughing and hysterically. You know, we just played a gig, we ran away from the cops. It's like these times when you're like, oh my God, I'm so happy in this moment. Like a few times I remember that like consciously in my life. Another time was like hitchhiking in the pouring rain in the UK once at like three in the morning, all alone and feeling I will never be this happy again in my life. Like, look at me, I am living right now. But anyways, it felt like that. And we run into the street, we see this car going by with these kids like our age who had been to the show and they give us a ride, they take us to their house and we hang out and have a party with these people. And you know, those were the days.
- [24:09]
Terry Gross
Flea, it's been great talking with you. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate it.
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Flea
Thank you for having me.
- [24:16]
Terry Gross
Flea's new solo album is called Honora. He co founded the Red Hot chili peppers in 1982. On Earth Day April 22, Netflix launched a six part series called this Is a Gardening Show. Its host is Zach Galifianakis, the comic actor best known for the Hangover films, the TV series Baskets, and his own acerbic talk show Between Two Ferns. Our TV critic David Biancooli says that while this series is just as funny and delightful as you might expect, it's also surprisingly informative and even serious. Here's David's review.
- [24:57]
Zach Galifianakis
This is a food gardening show with your host, Zatch Gaspedowski.
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David Biancooli
You don't expect Zach Galifianakis to take himself seriously in his new Netflix series, and for the most part, he doesn't. This Is a Gardening show is loaded with botched takes, toss away asides, and truly terrible jokes. Even knock knock jokes. He clearly has fun and so do his guests. One segment in each episode has him interviewing kids at a grade school, acting like Art Linkletter used to in his very old radio and TV shows. The questions typically revolve around gardening, fruits and vegetables, but invariably veer off into uncharted conversational territory. The host proved his ad lib prowess as an interviewer on his Between Two Fern show. But the object there was to make his guests intentionally uncomfortable. On this show, whether he's talking to farmers, horticultural experts, or little kids, Galifianakis himself always ends up being the butt of the joke. Here he is chatting with a series of kids as he tours their school garden. Somehow the conversational topics shift from ghost peppers to the movie School of Rock.
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Terry Gross
These are ghost peppers.
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Flea
Are they haunted?
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Terry Gross
No.
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Zach Galifianakis
Well, then why did they call them ghost peppers?
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Terry Gross
Because they're really hot.
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Zach Galifianakis
But most ghosts aren't known for being hot. If you could be anything in the world that you wanted to be, what would you be?
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Brittany Luce
I want to be a vet.
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Zach Galifianakis
You don't mean a veteran, you mean a veteran veterinarian?
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Terry Gross
Yeah. Yeah, probably somebody who works in a show.
- [26:35]
Zach Galifianakis
Works in a show?
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Terry Gross
Yeah.
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Zach Galifianakis
Oh, like show business stuff?
- [26:37]
Terry Gross
Yeah. Like, have you ever seen Schoolwork?
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Zach Galifianakis
Who's that with Jack Black? Never heard of that guy.
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Brittany Luce
He's one of my favorite actors.
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Zach Galifianakis
Good for him.
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Terry Gross
No, my first favorite is Ryan Reynolds.
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Zach Galifianakis
Ryan Reynolds. It'd be nice to meet an actor one day.
- [26:51]
Terry Gross
Yeah, it would be nice to meet Ryan Reynolds and Jack Black.
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Zach Galifianakis
Yeah. You ever heard of this guy? Zach Galifianakis?
- [26:59]
Terry Gross
Yeah.
- [27:00]
Zach Galifianakis
What do you think of that guy?
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Terry Gross
He's not my favorite.
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Zach Galifianakis
Hmm.
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David Biancooli
The six episodes in this first season, I'm hoping there will be more, are devoted to apples, tomatoes, foraging root vegetables, corn, and compost. Zach, who lives in British Columbia, has been gardening for some 25 years. This is a gardening show, was filmed on Vancouver island, and every farmer he visits is a true character, especially Murray, who's been growing corn for about half a century and easily handles any question thrown at him, even when Zach brings up the phenomenon of crop circles.
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Zach Galifianakis
Anybody ever come in here and try to do a crop circle? No. And he did it with a center point and a rope and make a crop circle. You don't think they're aliens? No, they're just drunk kids doing it. No. Old people with a piece of board. You've probably seen it on tv. What do you mean old people by that? Well, like, our age.
- [27:56]
David Biancooli
Our age?
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Zach Galifianakis
Well, you look 70ish.
- [28:02]
David Biancooli
In the same episode on corn, an actual food archaeologist is brought in. And while you're likely to learn something, it's always with a smile.
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Zach Galifianakis
Food is one of the topics that I study in archaeology, and we began to find corn in an ancient village site that we were working at in Chiapas, Mexico. We took samples of that carbonized corn and sent it to a radiocarbon laboratory. How old was it? Over 3,000 years old. Wow, Older than Murray.
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David Biancooli
The director of this Is a Gardening show is Brooke Linder, who also proved his skill at mixing different topics and comic tones in the live Netflix talk show Everybody's Live with John Mulaney. These gardening shows rely on a basket of tricks. They use time lapse photography to capture both growth and decay. They use the segments with kids for pure comedy. Galifianakis also visits different farms and farmers to sample their wares. And every time he bites into an heirloom tomato or a homegrown carrot, he pronounces it the best one he's ever tasted. And I don't think he's kidding. In the course of these compact 15 to 16 minute episodes, he learns how to graft apple trees, make richer compost, and generally how to self sustain. The future is agrarian, he says in every episode, and not as a punchline. And he points out how happy the Canadian farmers all seem to be, even Murray, as well as how much tastier the locally grown fruits and vegetables are in several spots. Watching this Is A Gardening Show, I became nostalgic for a past I'd almost forgotten. When I was a little kid, my Uncle Tom had a farm sized backyard where he grew cherries and tomatoes and harvested seeds from his hottest peppers each year to keep growing even hotter ones. He also could walk through the nearby forests and confidently forage many types of wild mushrooms, leaving the poisonous ones behind. I also remember a corn farm in Ohio where on harvest day the farm would set up boiling cauldrons in the fields and invite the public. You could go there, pick ears right off the stalks, shuck and boil them on the spot and eat. What I still remember was the best corn I ever had. Zach Galifianakis, in his new series, spreads that kind of joy for eating as well as gardening. But he issues a dire warning, too, that if we don't return to our roots, the roots in our own gardens, our future may end up being a lot more bleak. That's a bitter pill to swallow, but this Is a gardening show serves it up persuasively and deliciously.
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Terry Gross
David Biancooli reviewed this Is a Gardening Show. Coming up, we hear from actor Nick Offerman. He stars in the new series Margot's Got Money Troubles, based on the popular book of the same name. This is FRESH AIR weekend support for
- [30:59]
Edward Jones Announcer
NPR and the following message come from Edward Jones what does it mean to live a rich life? It means brave first leaps, tearful goodbyes and everything in between. With over a hundred years of experience navigating the ups and downs of the market and of life. Your Edward Jones financial advisor will be there to help you move ahead with confidence. Because with all you've done to find your rich, they'll do all they can to help you keep enjoying it. Edward Jones Member, SIPC Our next guest
- [31:31]
Terry Gross
is actor, writer and woodworker Nick Offerman. He's best known for his role in Parks and Recreation and for his Emmy award winning role in the show the Last of Us. His new series, Margo's Got Money Troubles is based on the book of the same name. He spoke to Fresh Airs and Marie Baldonaro.
- [31:48]
Anne Marie Baldonado
The new Apple TV series Margot's Got Money Troubles is about Margot, a bright college freshman who ill advisedly has an affair with her English professor. She ends up getting pregnant and decides to have and keep the baby. Margo herself was raised by a single mom. Her dad, Jinx, played by Nick Offerman, was a popular professional wrestler when she was born and has been pretty absent from her life. Now his career is in the past and his injuries have caused him chronic pain. He turns to painkillers, then heroin and then rehab. He's there when he hears about Margot and decides to come back into her life after years of being away. In this scene, he comes to Margo's door and and meets the baby for the first time. Margot is played by Elle Fanning.
- [32:41]
Brittany Luce
You're a grandpa. Everyone says he's beautiful, so I'm going with that.
- [32:50]
Nick Offerman
He's the most beautiful. Oh, I brought you a check. Sold an old bike. It's not much, but I. I'm sorry, but wasn't able to call you back.
- [33:07]
Brittany Luce
Where are you staying?
- [33:10]
Nick Offerman
Well, for tonight I gotta figure. And then starting tomorrow. Guess I gotta figure that too. Can I hold him?
- [33:22]
Brittany Luce
He's a little fussy. Oh,
- [33:31]
Nick Offerman
Hey. Hey, little man. Wow.
- [33:40]
Brittany Luce
He likes you.
- [33:46]
Nick Offerman
Wow.
- [33:48]
Anne Marie Baldonado
Jinx moves in with Margot, the baby and Margo's roommate, creating an unconventional family unit. Jinx is there for Margot in a way he wasn't in the past, but the pain and struggle of addiction persist. Nick Offerman played the beloved character Ron Swanson in the comedy series Parks and Recreation. He won an Emmy award for Outstanding Guest Actor in a Drama Series for his role in a heartbreaking episode of the series the Last of Us. In addition to Margot's Got Money Troubles, he stars in the Netflix show Death by Lightning. Nick Offerman, welcome back to FRESH air.
- [34:28]
Nick Offerman
Thank you so much for having me.
- [34:31]
Anne Marie Baldonado
This series is great and you're so good in it. You've said that playing this role really Scared you? What was so scary about it?
- [34:39]
Nick Offerman
Well, I suppose, you know, I've had a really lucky career. I've gotten to work a lot, which for an actor, just getting jobs is wild. The numbers are so stacked against you. And, you know, with the good fortune of getting to work consistently, I also, you know, fell into a certain category of, like, dependable supporting actor, you know, journeyman bus driver slash plumber, you know, slash guy manning the grill. And so one thing I haven't been called on to do a lot of as have, like a complicated emotional relationship or have. Have an inner emotional arc that we want the audience to care about. And so that part of the show, not only having two of those relationships with, with Al Fanning and with Michelle Pfeiffer, not only having that for the first time kind of, but to have him with these, like, world class Mount Rushmore, like a list actresses, you know, was like, well, I wanted a challenge. Here you go, buddy.
- [35:57]
Anne Marie Baldonado
Well, I've read when you're preparing for a role, you think a lot about facial hair. Maybe all of your hair, but facial hair in particular. And I imagine too, you think a lot about physicality. Like, how would this character carry himself? What does he look like physically? Can you talk about what you thought about in terms of your look when you were playing Jinx, who was, you know, had been a wrestler a little past his prime?
- [36:23]
Nick Offerman
I love transforming. One thing I love about Job is sinking into the material deeply enough that sometimes the audience will say, oh, I didn't realize that's the guy from the other thing. And that's sort of my favorite compliment to get if I get one. And so, because I'm blessed with a healthy crop of facial hair and hair on my head, that's kind of just my jumping off point. Like, okay, which version of Lon Chaney will I bring to bat in this game? And then also I worked with a great trainer named Grant Roberts to make my body look more like a former pro wrestler, and then had the incredible opportunity to train with Chavo Guerrero, who's a real pro wrestler from the Guerrero family. And he's just this incredible teacher. He did the show glow, he did the Iron Claw. And so he's become kind of the Hollywood go to guy. And he was just a wonderful teacher. I mean, the fact that I was able to do all my own wrestling in the show and never once go to the hospital is a great credit to him. And our stunt coordinator, John Epstein.
- [37:37]
Anne Marie Baldonado
Yeah, you're shown wrestling in flashbacks. You're sort of on videotape and then you wrestle at an expo for wrestlers, and you even wrestle Nicole Kidman's character.
- [37:51]
Nick Offerman
Yeah, that was in the modern parlance of not on my bingo card wrestling Nicole Kidman was definitely not on there.
- [38:01]
Anne Marie Baldonado
I want to play another scene from this series here. Jinx is at Margot's apartment with the baby. He's cleaned the place, he's trying to help out, and he decides to ask Margo if he can move in again. Margot is played by Elle Fanning.
- [38:17]
Nick Offerman
Susie mentioned that you might be looking for a roommate, and I need a place to live. Oh, well, I mean, look, I can't contribute a ton for rent. The divorce wiped me out. But I can cook and I can clean, and the idea of getting to spend time with you. Lost time. Okay, I think I got my answer.
- [38:47]
Brittany Luce
It's not, we do need a roommate, and it would be nice to spend time with you, but I know the statistics on drug addicts, and if you were gonna stay here, you would have to be clean if you were gonna be around Bodie.
- [39:12]
Nick Offerman
Margo, I am clean. I am the one who checked myself into rehab.
- [39:22]
Brittany Luce
Why me? Why don't you ask Andrea or one of the boys? I mean, I checked their Instagrams. I know they're financially stable.
- [39:29]
Nick Offerman
My therapist thinks that the stress of those relationships might cause me to relapse.
- [39:35]
Brittany Luce
And the idea of getting your own
- [39:36]
Nick Offerman
place, that would definitely relapse. I mean, there would be no one to perform sanity for.
- [39:43]
Anne Marie Baldonado
That's a scene from Margot's Got Money Troubles. Your character Jinx is a hulking guy used to being physical, but it's his wrestling that has brought him pain. And in response to that chronic pain, he starts using painkillers, and his addiction goes on from there. How did you tackle that part of the role? Did you talk. Talk with wrestlers or people who've dealt with chronic pain or those dealing with drug addiction?
- [40:11]
Nick Offerman
I did. I mean, sadly, in my business, as well as wrestling and pro sports, I have. I sadly, have a couple friends who went through the exact same trajectory of inadvertently getting hooked on opioids and then having that uncover a tendency for addiction that led to heroin use. And so I have dealt with that and have some knowledge of it from being adjacent to it. And a lot of wrestlers and former wrestlers live in Los Angeles or Las Vegas. So it was easy to get a lot of sort of research and talk to these people about their interior lives. And I can. I mean, I thankfully have not had such addiction problems in my life, but I've certainly dabbled in Indulgence in ways that, like, I've learned lessons over the years of, like, well, this is fun. Let me try partying this way for a week and then learning. Okay, I see how if I don't stop, that this will ruin a lot of my life.
- [41:29]
Anne Marie Baldonado
The thing that's so heartbreaking about Jinx is that he's trying so hard, but the audience can tell that he's struggling. You know, he's trying to make up for the past, but he's not sure if he can do it. Can you talk about trying to play that part of Jinx, the struggle?
- [41:44]
Zach Galifianakis
Yeah.
- [41:45]
Nick Offerman
I mean, it's tied to your last question. I'm a human. I'm a human male. And so that if you're honest with yourself, that brings a certain lesser batting average than perhaps we'd like to believe. I have incredible parents. My mom and dad are really great citizens, and I have three great siblings. And we're all doing our best. We've got school teachers and librarians, nurses and an actor. But we all, you know, each in our own way, we emulate our mom and dad. And, you know, I'm living this crazy life, traveling the world and singing and dancing for people, but still trying to participate in the conversation of values that my mom and dad sort of imparted in us. I have a very successful marriage. I've been with my wife, Megan Mullally, for 26 years. I think we've been married 23. And, you know, being with somebody for 26 years is definitely going to include some. Some stumbles and some pitfalls. And sometimes when I've had to say, wow, I handled that horribly. Please forgive me. You know, so I'm a person who's honest with himself, so I have a wealth of opportunities to draw upon for Jinx to find his feelings in.
- [43:34]
Anne Marie Baldonado
Now, many listeners will know you from your role as Ron Swanson in the show Parks and Recreation. I want to play a quick scene from the show, one that shows Ron being Ron. Here's Ron turning a wall sconce into wedding rings for the characters Leslie and Ben.
- [43:51]
Nick Offerman
It's not rocket science. I removed the sconce, fired up my grandfather's torch, heated up the pieces in a cast iron bucket, liquefied the metal, poured into a mold. Obviously, keep it over a low flame to achieve a nice temper, cooled it in antifreeze, and just forged and shaped the rings. Any moron with a crucible and acetylene torch and a cast iron waffle maker could have done the same. Whole thing only took me about 20 minutes. People who buy things are suckers.
- [44:23]
Anne Marie Baldonado
That's a scene from Parks and Recreation. It's a beloved show. You play a beloved character. Can you tell the story of how you got the part of Ron?
- [44:33]
Flea
I
- [44:36]
Nick Offerman
was getting pretty bummed. I was in my late 30s, and I had had a few instances where writers took a shine to me, TV writers, and they would write me a part in their pilot, and it never worked out. And then finally, we were watching Rainn Wilson on the Office, who's a dear old friend, and I. I said, you know, if I'm ever going to get a shot, I think it's going to be something like Dwight on the Office. And sure enough, Dwight's cousin, Mose Schrute, played by Mike Schur, who created Parks and Rec with Greg Daniels of the Office. They had me in. They looked at me for another role. That role never happened, but they took a shine to me, thankfully, and wanted to put me in as Amy's boss, this guy Ron Swanson, who, thank goodness, they really wanted a slow talker. And still NBC, of course, in their corporate wisdom, said, I don't think so. Like, he's weird. We've never been able to wrap our heads around Nick Offerman. Let's keep looking. So for five months since they first read me as Ron, they read every guy under the moon. I mean, everybody I met was like, oh, my God, I went in for the greatest part. It's Amy's boss on her new show.
- [45:58]
Anne Marie Baldonado
It must have been heartbreaking.
- [45:59]
Nick Offerman
I would sob inwardly like, oh, cool. Sounds good, man. See you later. So finally it came down to where there were just a couple of us. Amy came to town, they were getting ready to start shooting. She moved here from New York to la. And they brought me and another guy in to improvise with Amy as the final audition. And they taped them and then turned them into NBC. And. And you know, I did my best. And Ron and Leslie were really born in that room that day because that I. I had never worked with Amy before. I'd known her for a long time and. And was crazy about her, but, like, she was like a comedy butterfly hopped up on. On uppers, like just comedy dynamo ing around the room. And I had no choice but to sit there and withstand her and then say, like, one pithy thing at the end and as though I had a choice, as though that was my comedic brilliance instead of just the only physical possibility. And they said, amazing. What collaboration. So that went great. And then Mike called me the next day to say that I got the job and that they had only turned in my tape. They didn't even turn in the other guy's tape. And so it was, I mean, good Lord. I mean, it changed my life so profoundly. And I'm so grateful to Mike and Greg for sticking with me. I mean, I'll be forever in their debt.
- [47:43]
Anne Marie Baldonado
Fans of this show love this show and they want you all to still be in touch with each other. Are you still all in touch with each other?
- [47:52]
Nick Offerman
The cast does have a text thread that has never stopped. It's, you know, as you can imagine, it's mostly congratulations and happy birthdays and so forth with, you know, a lot of sincerity and affection and also a good amount of smartassery and, and insulting. The actor Jim o', Hare, who played
- [48:17]
Anne Marie Baldonado
Jerry Gary and whose character. Yeah. Who always the running joke was that
- [48:24]
Nick Offerman
everybody made fun of he's, yeah, he's the Eeyore. And he couldn't be a sweeter, you know, more wonderful guy. And it's just, it's a joke will never, will never drop. Like it was a cast full of wonderful, talented actors. And also Jim o' Hare is the running bit.
- [48:43]
Anne Marie Baldonado
Nick Offerman, thank you so much for joining us.
- [48:47]
Nick Offerman
My pleasure.
- [48:49]
Terry Gross
Nick Offerman spoke with Fresh airs, Anne Marie Baldonado. He stars in the new series Margo's Got Money Troubles. Fresh AIR Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberto Shorrock, Ann Marie Boldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez Wisl. Our digital media producer is Molly Sivi Nesper. Our co host is Tanya Moseley. I'm Terry Gross.