Best Of: 'Hamilton' Producer Jeffrey Seller / Ebon Moss-Bachrach On 'The Bear'

Summary

Fresh Air: Best Of 'Hamilton' Producer Jeffrey Seller / Ebon Moss-Bachrach On 'The Bear'

Episode Release Date: July 5, 2025

---

Introduction

In this engaging episode of Fresh Air Weekend, host Sam Brigger and co-hosts Terry Gross and Tonya Mosley delve into the fascinating worlds of Broadway and contemporary television. The episode spotlights two prominent figures: Jeffrey Seller, the acclaimed producer behind Broadway sensations like Hamilton and Rent, and Eben Moss-Bachrach, the Emmy-winning actor renowned for his portrayal of Richie in the FX series The Bear. Additionally, the episode features a comprehensive review by critic Ken Tucker on Bruce Springsteen's newly released collection, Tracks 2: The Lost Albums.

---

Interview with Jeffrey Seller: The Man Behind Hamilton

Early Life and Humble Beginnings

Jeffrey Seller's journey to becoming a powerhouse in the Broadway scene is both inspiring and humble. Contrary to what one might assume about a successful Broadway producer, Seller did not come from wealth. He grew up in a neighborhood outside Detroit known as "Cardboard Village," where financial struggles were a daily reality. His father's job involved serving legal papers, earning a meager $20 per summons, while his mother worked low-wage clerical positions and at a local pharmacy. The family faced dire circumstances, including a lack of health insurance and limited access to adequate housing.

At [16:40], Seller recounts the challenges of his upbringing:

Jeffrey Seller [16:59]: "We had to move to a neighborhood that the kids called Cardboard Village because the houses were made of shingles instead of bricks... there was no proper shelter, especially during tornadoes."

A poignant moment from Seller's childhood involves his Hebrew school teacher's insensitive comparison of their impoverished neighborhood to the Warsaw Ghetto, highlighting the extreme poverty they endured. This incident deeply affected him, illustrating the disconnect between his reality and the perceptions of those around him.

Path to Broadway: From Youth Theater to Megahit Musicals

Seller's passion for theater ignited early in life. At 13, he took the initiative to join the committee selecting plays for his youth theater group after a poor school performance, marking his first foray into production. This experience solidified his desire to produce impactful and meaningful theater.

Jeffrey Seller [23:12]: "The most important decision I ever make is what play to produce. It reflects my aesthetic, my values, my likes, the characters I care about."

His professional journey saw him producing notable Broadway hits such as Rent, in the Heights, Avenue Q, and the revival of Sweeney Todd starring Josh Groban. His most significant achievement, however, remains his collaboration with Lin-Manuel Miranda on Hamilton.

The Making of Hamilton: Vision, Challenges, and Triumphs

Hamilton was initially envisioned as a mixtape, aptly titled the "Hamilton Mixtape." Seller, alongside director Thomas Kail, played a pivotal role in transforming this concept into the groundbreaking musical that it became. A critical turning point was a public cabaret performance of eight Hamilton songs at Jazz at Lincoln Center in early 2012, which convinced Seller of its potential as a full-fledged book musical.

Jeffrey Seller [07:56]: "After that performance, I wrote to them saying, if you want to make a musical, I want to be your producer. Let's go on this adventure together."

As the lead producer, Seller's role extended beyond financial backing. He was deeply involved in creative decisions, including significant cuts to the musical to enhance audience engagement and maintain pacing. Notably, he advocated for reducing the number of rap battles from three to two and trimming the Dear Theodosia reprise in Act 2.

Jeffrey Seller [10:48]: "We are not equipped for three-hour musicals. Our goal is to feel how the audience stays with the show through every moment."

Seller's strategic edits ensured that Hamilton remained dynamic and captivating, adhering to the traditional structure where the second act is typically shorter and focused on resolution. His keen sense of audience reception and narrative flow was instrumental in the musical's success.

Personal Reflections and Advocacy

Beyond his professional accomplishments, Seller's memoir, Theater Kid, offers an intimate look into his life and the broader theater community. He candidly discusses his experience coming out during the AIDS epidemic, a period that profoundly affected the Broadway world by claiming the lives of many artists and altering the community's fabric.

Moreover, Seller is an active advocate for cultural spaces, as evidenced by his involvement in protesting President Trump's intervention at the Kennedy Center, where Hamilton temporarily canceled its run in response to political changes affecting the institution.

Ken Tucker's Review: Bruce Springsteen's Tracks 2: The Lost Albums

Parallel to the interviews, rock critic Ken Tucker provides an insightful review of Bruce Springsteen's extensive collection, Tracks 2: The Lost Albums. This compilation features 83 songs recorded between the mid-1980s and the late 2010s, encompassing a diverse array of styles from synth-pop to folk ballads.

Highlights of the Collection

Tucker praises the collection for revealing previously unheard facets of Springsteen's artistry. Albums like Inyo showcase original folk songs influenced by Springsteen's motorcycle journeys across California, Texas, and Mexico, while Somewhere North of Nashville offers a country-infused soundscape, including a heartfelt cover of Johnny Rivers' 1966 hit "Poor Side of Town."

Ken Tucker [26:15]: "At its best, this capacious grab bag of music yields not just good songs, but songs that seem unlike anything else Springsteen has ever done."

The LA Garage Sessions stands out as the best album in the collection, bridging the gap between Springsteen's solo work and his renowned E Street Band collaborations. This album features intimate, lo-fi recordings that capture a raw and unfiltered side of Springsteen's musical evolution.

Balanced Critique

While praising the collection's depth, Tucker also acknowledges its imperfections. Albums like Faithless and Twilight Hours exhibit weaker spots, but the overall release is celebrated as a treasure trove for fans and a valuable addition to Springsteen's discography.

Interview with Eben Moss-Bachrach: Bringing Richie to Life in The Bear

Character Evolution and Portrayal

Eben Moss-Bachrach, recognized for his compelling portrayal of Richie in The Bear, shares his insights into the character's complex journey. Richie, initially introduced as a loud and abrasive figure, undergoes significant transformation as he grapples with personal loss and professional challenges.

Eben Moss-Bachrach [35:49]: "This is a man who was suffering, who was finding himself in a world that he didn't really recognize anymore... someone who's fighting for their survival."

As the series progresses, Richie's tender relationship with his young daughter and his struggles with a failed marriage add layers of depth to his character, making him the emotional heart of the show.

Behind the Scenes: Filming and Emotional Depth

Filming The Bear demands high energy and emotional intensity, mirroring the on-screen chaos of the restaurant environment. Moss-Bachrach describes the set as a place of meticulous rehearsal and deep collaboration, ensuring that every heated exchange feels authentic and impactful.

A standout moment discussed is the scene where Richie drives home singing Taylor Swift's "Love Story" after a successful day at a Michelin-starred restaurant. This scene encapsulates Richie's internal triumph and vulnerability, blending joyous celebration with lingering frustrations.

Eben Moss-Bachrach [48:43]: "It's a great scene... something that we don't see that much in movies and TV shows."

Personal Connection and Acting Approach

Moss-Bachrach emphasizes the importance of authenticity in his performance, striving to embody Richie's multifaceted persona. He delves into the emotional scars left by Richie's troubled upbringing and the lengths he goes to be a devoted father despite personal turmoil.

Eben Moss-Bachrach [46:56]: "He's a dad that would do anything for his daughter... each minute is something that he really invests himself and tries to be present."

His dedication to portraying Richie with honesty and depth has earned him two consecutive Emmy Awards, solidifying his place as a standout actor in contemporary television.

---

Conclusion

This Fresh Air Weekend episode offers a rich exploration of two influential figures in the arts: Jeffrey Seller, whose production genius brought Hamilton to the Broadway stage, and Eben Moss-Bachrach, whose nuanced performance in The Bear captivates audiences. Coupled with Ken Tucker's insightful review of Bruce Springsteen's Tracks 2: The Lost Albums, the episode provides listeners with a deep dive into the creative processes and personal journeys that shape modern theater and television.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Jeffrey Seller [10:48]: "We are not equipped for three-hour musicals. Our goal is to feel how the audience stays with the show through every moment."

• Ken Tucker [26:15]: "At its best, this capacious grab bag of music yields not just good songs, but songs that seem unlike anything else Springsteen has ever done."

• Eben Moss-Bachrach [35:49]: "This is a man who was suffering, who was finding himself in a world that he didn't really recognize anymore..."

---

This summary encapsulates the essence of the Fresh Air episode, highlighting the impactful stories and insights shared by Jeffrey Seller and Eben Moss-Bachrach, while also presenting Ken Tucker's detailed critique of Springsteen's musical collection.

Transcript

[NPR Sponsor]

This message comes from NPR sponsor the official Gilded Age Podcast from hbo. Unpack each episode and hear from the people who bring 19th century New York to life. Listen to the official Gilded Age Podcast.

[Sam Brigger]

Wherever you get podcasts from WHYY in Philadelphia. This is FRESH AIR Weekend. I'm Sam Brigger.

[Lin Manuel Miranda]

I am not throwing away my shot. I am not throwing away my shot.

[Sam Brigger]

That's one of the songs that convinced Jeffrey Seller to produce Hamilton.

[Jeffrey Seller]

You know what the most important decision I ever make is as a producer? What play to produce?

[Sam Brigger]

He made some great decisions. He also produced Rent in the Heights and Avenue Q. His new memoir is Theater Kid. Also, the new season of the FX show the Bear is now streaming. We hear from actor Eben Moss Bachrach, who plays cousin Richie. He'll talk about his character's transformation over the years and what it's like to act out so such frenetic scenes. And Ken Tucker has a review of a new collection of Bruce Springsteen music songs Springsteen wrote and recorded from the mid-1980s to the late 2010s but hadn't released till now. That's coming up on FRESH AIR Weekend.

[NPR Sponsor]

This message comes from Schwab. Everyone has moments when they could have done better. Same goes for where you invest. Level up and invest smarter with Schwab. Get market insights, education and human help when you need it. This message comes from NPR sponsor Capella University. Sometimes it takes a different approach to pursue your goals. Capella is an online university accredited by the Higher Learning Commission. That means you can earn your degree from wherever you are and be confident your education is relevant, recognized and respected. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more about earning a relevant [e-mail].

This message comes from Capital One. Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.combank for details. Capital One NA Member FDIC this message.

Comes from Dell Technologies. The new Dell AI PC with Intel Core Ultra helps fast forward through busywork. Let's leaving more time for you. Time. Get a new Dell AI PC starting at [e-mail] AI PC this is Fresh Air Weekend.

[Sam Brigger]

I'm Sam Brigger. Terry has today's first interview. Here she is.

[Terry Gross]

My guest was a key behind the scenes figure in Rent and Hamilton, two Broadway mega hits that open the door to new kinds of musicals. Each won a Pulitzer Prize for drama and multiple Tony Awards, including best Musical. My guest, Jeffrey Seller produced Rent with his business partner. Seller's own company produced Hamilton. He was also a producer of Lin Manuel Miranda's first musical, in the Heights, as well as the satirical adult puppet musical Avenue Q and the recent revival of Sondheim's Sweeney Todd starring Josh Groban. And you may assume that since his skills include raising money to produce shows, that he's from money, but he's most definitely not. His family was often broke or close to it. He grew up in a neighborhood outside Detroit that was nicknamed Cardboard Village because the houses were so cheap and shoddy. His father worked serving papers, 20 bucks for each summons served. His mother worked for low wages as a clerk and at a neighborhood pharmacy. The family couldn't afford health insurance, and Seller had serious respiratory problems. Seller has written a new memoir called Theater Kid that's a fascinating look into his own life and into different parts of the theater world. His life in the theater started when he was a child and landed a role in his synagogue Purim play. After many stops along the way, he became a booker, with the job of booking touring companies of popular musicals into theaters around the country. That work led him where he always wanted to be, producing musicals. He also writes about coming out during the AIDS epidemic and how terrifying that was and how it wiped out so many people who created and performed in Broadway shows, as well as a significant part of the audience. We recorded our interview June 17. A few days later, on June 23, an announcement was made that on that night a group of Democratic senators, along with Jeffrey Seller, would host an Invitation Only Pride celebration at one of the Kennedy Center's smaller theaters. This was not programmed by the Kennedy Center. Seller was also part of a protest in early March when Hamilton canceled its scheduled run at the Kennedy center in protest against President Trump, President removing and replacing 18 Kennedy Center Board members who were appointed by President Biden. Trump fired the chair of the board and took over that position himself. In a statement explaining Hamilton's cancellation, Seller said, quote, the recent purge flies in the face of everything this National Cultural center represents, unquote. Here's our interview. Jeffrey Seller, welcome to FRESH AIR. Well, since this is the 10th anniversary of Hamilton, congratulations. Of Hamilton opening on Broadway. Start there.

[Jeffrey Seller]

Thank you.

[Terry Gross]

You had already produced Rent and Lin Manuel Miranda's first musical in the Heights. When you heard in the Heights mix of rap and Broadway music, you felt a little out of your element because you hadn't followed rap. Had you listened to a lot more rap by the time of Hamilton?

[Jeffrey Seller]

No, I had, of course, become completely enamored with in the Heights. And you know that first time Lynn sang Lights up on Washington Heights at the break of day, it was so warm. It was like this Caribbean water that's just enveloping me. And then when after that, the Broadway chorus came in with in the Heights, I wake up and start my day. My God, I already had the goosebumps. And in many ways, Hamilton was just Lynn's next musical.

[Terry Gross]

Okay, so since you mentioned in the Heights in that opening song, let's hear it.

[Lin Manuel Miranda]

That was Abuela. She's not really my abuela, but she practically raised me. This corner is her escuela. Now, you probably thinking, I'm a creek I never been north of 96th Street. Well, you must take the A train even farther than Harlem to northern Manhattan and maintain. Get off at 181st and take the escalator. I hope you're writing this down. I'm gonna test you. I'm getting tested. Times are tough on this bodega. Two months ago, somebody bought Ortegas. Our neighbors started packing up and f. Cking up and ever since the rent went up it's gotten mad expensive but we live with just enough in the Heights I lift the lights start my.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Day.

[Lin Manuel Miranda]

There are lights and endless debts.

[Ken Tucker]

And bills to pay.

[Lin Manuel Miranda]

In the Heights I can't survive without a.

[Ken Tucker]

But tonight seems like a million years away.

[Lin Manuel Miranda]

In Washington. Next up tonight.

[Terry Gross]

Okay, that's the opening of the Broadway musical In the Heights, Lin Manuel Miranda's first musical, produced by my guest, Jeffrey Cellar. So Hamilton was supposed to be a record. That was the plan. And it was gonna be called the Hamilton Mixtape. And you convinced or helped convince Lynne that it should be a musical, not just a recording. How did you convince him?

[Jeffrey Seller]

Well, I'm gonna give real credit to that to his colleague, friend, and director, Thomas Kail. And Tommy had an idea, which is that if he could get Lin to do a public cabaret performance of just the songs, that would persuade him that this could be a musical. So in early 2012, they did, like, eight songs from Hamilton at Jazz at Lincoln Center. And it was so clear from that performance that this was a book musical that after that, I wrote a letter to both of them saying, if you want to get going on a musical, I want to be your producer, and I'll clear the decks. I'll be your cheerleader. I'll be your nurturer. I'll be your critic if you want to go. I had a new company at that point. I named it Adventureland. And I said, let's go on this adventure together. And that was early 2012.

[Terry Gross]

So, as the lead producer, what was your role? What was your job?

[Jeffrey Seller]

Sometimes it was to make lunch. Like at one point, Lynn and Tommy and another writer we were considering working with came out to my house and they would work in the morning. I would make egg salad with my own mayonnaise that I had learned how to make from the New York Times Cookbook and serve. But what I mean by that is setting the table for them to do the great work and giving them that space and giving them that praise when it was necessary, giving them that reinforcement and encouragement when it's necessary. And then sometimes knowing when can I make a suggestion or not? Can I. Sometimes knowing when is the right time to make a suggestion.

[Terry Gross]

Tell us a suggestion you made that you think was really helpful.

[Jeffrey Seller]

You know, in the case of Hamilton, I would say I made less suggestions than I ever had before. But, you know, one very important one was cutting the third rap battle in act two. You know, we had not two rap battles, but we had three rap battles. You know, another situation was cutting the Dear Theodosia reprise in Act Act 2. I also seem to remember talking deeply about how the set would be realized, which came later with David Corens and Thomas Kail. I also remember talking a lot about the staging of Washington on youn side, which may not have been in its best form the first time they did it.

[Terry Gross]

Cutting. Why was cutting the rap battle and the other song that you referred to, why was cutting them important? And why did you think they needed to be cut?

[Jeffrey Seller]

How much can we as audience members take in? We are not equipped for three hour musicals. And our musical already had a first act that was an hour and 15 minutes. And believe it or not, the second act was even longer, which actually breaks the rule that Oscar Hammerstein once said, which was that the first act is usually gonna be twice as long as the second act. Or let me put it another way, the second act is going to be half as long as the first act. And in our show, the second act was actually longer. And one of our jobs is to really try to feel how the audience is gonna stay with the show through every moment of the show. And there's a moment where the audience, they can't take anymore. Where are we redundant? Where are we in a situation where we can actually lose something? And in those instances, I gave, and there were others in Act 2 as well that we succeeded.

[Terry Gross]

What's the logic behind the second act being shorter than the first?

[Jeffrey Seller]

Because we give our greatest amount of energy to the show for the first act. That's where you're establishing character plot, the rising dramatic action, that big dramatic question. What is the major dramatic question? And then in Act 2, we just really want to see it resolved. And if you look at west side Story, that's a show that has a 90 minute first act and a 45 minute second act.

[Terry Gross]

Is there a particular song in Hamilton that when you first heard the music from, it made you think, this is great?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

I.

[Jeffrey Seller]

Well, Lynn shared with me the first songs probably around 2010, 2011. And when I heard my shot for the first time, I was like, whoa. Like if in the Heights was this warm Caribbean embrace. My shot was lightning, it was a wallop. And I knew he was taking this form to a deeper place that had even more impact. And I knew he was on another creative tear.

[Terry Gross]

Well, let's hear a little bit of my shot. And of course, this is Lin Manuel Miranda.

[Lin Manuel Miranda]

I am not throwing away my shot I am not throwing away my shot Yo, I'm just like my country I'm young, scrappy and hungry and I'm not throwing away my shot Imma get a scholarship to King's College I probably shouldn't brag the gag I am maze and astonished the problem is I got a lot of brains but no polish I got a holler just to be heard with every word I drop knowledge I'm a diamond in the rough A shiny piece of coal Trying to reach my goal, my power speech unimpeachable only 19 but my mind is older these New York City streets get colder I shoulder every burden, every disadvantage I've learned to manage I don't have a gun to brandish I walk these streets famished the plan is to fan this spark and but damn it's getting dark so let me spell out the name I am the A L E X A N D E R We are meant to be a colony that runs independently Meanwhile Britain keeps on us endlessly Essentially they tax us relentlessly Then King George turns around runs a spending spree he ain't never gonna set his descendants free so there will be a revolution in this century and to me he says in parentheses don't be shocked when your history be book mentions me I will lay down my life if it sets us free eventually you'll see my ascendancy and I am not thrown away my shot I am not throwing away my shot I am just like my country I'm young, scrappy and hungry and I'm not.

[Terry Gross]

Throwing away my shot that's Lin Manuel Miranda from the original Broadway cast recording of Hamilton. And my guest was the lead producer of Hamilton, Jeffrey Seller. He has a new memoir called Theater Kid. Was it hard to convince backers to invest in Hamilton?

[Jeffrey Seller]

Oh, gosh, no. Hamilton had this incredible power to galvanize audiences almost within minutes of any performance starting. So when we started to share readings of Hamilton with people in the industry, they were going crazy for it. So I raised the money for Hamilton faster and easier than I had raised money for anything else before.

[Sam Brigger]

We're listening to Terry's interview with theater producer Jeffrey Seller. His new memoir is called Theater Kid. We'll hear more of their conversation after a short break. I'm Sam Brigger, and this is FRESH AIR Weekend.

[NPR Sponsor]

This message comes from Amazon. Have you ever been so sick that even the thought of standing up to go to the doctor made you even more sick? Amazon One Medical has 247 virtual care so you can get help while horizontal. And with Amazon Pharmacy, you can get medicine delivered fast right to your door. You just have to make it to your door. Thanks to Amazon, health care just got less painful.

This message comes from Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. This message comes from Warpe Parker Prescription eyewear that's expertly crafted and unexpectedly affordable. Glasses designed in house from premium materials starting at just $95, including prescription lenses. Stop by a Warby Parker store near.

[Terry Gross]

You since you're a producer and part of your job is raising the money needed to produce the show and rent the theater. Like I said in the introduction, people might assume you came from money when the story is the opposite. So describe your neighborhood that was known as Cardboard Village.

[NPR Sponsor]

Okay?

[Jeffrey Seller]

My father, who had inherited his family business, which was a tool business, bankrupt it by overspending and through his own manic behavior. And then he was in a motorcycle accident on I94 in between Detroit and Kalamazoo, which caused brain damage, aphasia, a kind of dementia, and disenabled him from working. Our family wound up on welfare and we lost our nice house in our nice neighborhood and we had to move to this neighborhood that the kids called Cardboard Village because the houses were made of those shingles, those tar shingles instead of bricks. And instead of having basements, they were built on these 800 square foot slabs of concrete. You know One teeny bathroom, maybe a carport, but certainly no garage. And that was the neighborhood where I grew up, ultimately.

[Terry Gross]

And that basement meant there was no place to shelter if there was a tornado.

[Jeffrey Seller]

Yeah. So they would, like, tease you and say, you know, this is Michigan. So they tease you and say, hi, you have nowhere to go. Where do you go if there's a tornado? And I would go, I don't know.

[Terry Gross]

One of the craziest stories for me in the book. Your Hebrew school teacher is teaching about the Warsaw Ghetto during the Hitler regime, where all the Jews were kind of forced to stay. And there was, like, no food. I mean, it was horrible conditions. And a kid asks her, like, was there anything contemporary like that? And she says, yes. Cardboard village.

[Jeffrey Seller]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

I just think, like, that's insane. Like, I don't care how poor your community was. It wasn't taking place during the Holocaust. What was your reaction when you heard the comparison of the Warsaw Ghetto to your home?

[Jeffrey Seller]

I wanted to disappear. I wanted to. I was afraid I was going to be found out. I was burning red. My heart was beating a million miles a minute, and I was holding in tears. And what I realized in retrospect is that it was inconceivable to this teacher that anyone in this class at Temple Israel could be that poor.

[Terry Gross]

Right. And you weren't very comfortable with the temple because it was. Most of the members were from an adjoining neighborhood that actually had money, which you did not.

[Jeffrey Seller]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

So then your father, because of his traumatic brain injury, he became a summons server. You know, serving papers.

[Jeffrey Seller]

That's right. Summons, subpoenas, all the different court orders to people in trouble.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. So he dealt with deadbeat dads, prospective divorces, delinquent mortgage holders, and when you were available, he'd take you with him. But it sounded like a terrifying experience because he was a reckless driver. And his way of serving papers was often very confrontational. Like, there were incidents that really left you terrified. Would you describe one of them?

[Jeffrey Seller]

Well, I have this, like, very strong memory of him. Like, come on, go serve papers with me. And I didn't want to. I didn't like it. I didn't like going to. These neighborhoods were far from our house and leaving the house. But he wanted my company so badly, so I would say yes. And I remember once going to this one neighborhood where the house doesn't look that different from ours. It actually might have been a little bigger. And he can't. Like, he's banging on the door and no one's coming. And then finally, this woman Comes out and she is like. Like she's wearing like a T shirt dress. And she's like kind of shaking her head no, no, no, meaning, like whoever he's looking for isn't here. And then from the other side of the house, this guy comes around and he starts trying to kind of run away. And my 6 foot 3, 250 pound father starts chasing after him. And then he winds up seeing, you know, getting him on the sidewalk in front of the next door neighbor's house. And they're like talking and I roll down the window so I can hear it. And then the neighbor who's actually living in the house next door opens the door and says, leave him alone. And then my father serves him the paper. And then that guy screams to my father, get out of here, you pig. And he used the F word. And then my father ran up and put his hand through his window.

[Terry Gross]

So, you know, during all of this, you fall in love with theater. And was theater for you the kind of place you wanted it to be for others? Like, you leave life outside the theater door and you immerse yourself in the characters or in directing or producing the show, and that becomes your world while you're in the theater.

[Jeffrey Seller]

I guess it became the greatest new world I could have ever discovered. This world where we make plays and invent dialogue and create characters and build sets. And I took it very seriously. And I was incredibly rewarded by the audience reactions.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, because you started off acting. Sure. And then I love this story. You were in a play called Popcorn Pete. It was a school play. Right.

[Jeffrey Seller]

It was the community. It was the youth theater play.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, right, right. It was the youth theater play from a local theater company that was an adult company, but that had a kid's part.

[Jeffrey Seller]

Correct.

[Terry Gross]

And it didn't do well. You know, the theater was half filled and you decided it's. Cause, like, it's not a good play, it's not a good title, why would anybody come? And so you asked to be on the committee that chooses the plays that the kids perform. And in a way, like, that's your first time you were a producer and you were how old?

[Jeffrey Seller]

13 years old.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. And you had to convince the adults that you were worthy of being on the committee. So was that a very empowering feeling, like helping to choose the plays?

[Jeffrey Seller]

Well, that was the first step I took toward becoming a producer. Because you know what the most important decision I ever make is as a producer? What play to produce. And is that a reflection of my aesthetic, my values, my likes, the characters I care about. So that was a huge moment for me. And I want to also say at the time I didn't even know it. I just knew we could do better. And I started reading plays. Every weekend I would read all these different plays and that's where I started to learn what makes a good play and a bad play.

[Terry Gross]

Jeffrey, it's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much. It's just been a pleasure.

[Jeffrey Seller]

Thank you so much. It's been my great, great delight and pleasure.

[Sam Brigger]

Jeffrey Seller speaking with Terry Gross. His new memoir is called Theater Kid. Bruce Springsteen has decided to release seven albums worth of previously unreleased material. The collection is called Trax 2 the Lost Albums, a sequel to the First Tracks anthology in 1998. The new collection includes songs written and recorded between the mid-1980s through the late 2010s. The range of sounds and styles is considerable, from synth pop to folk ballads. Rock critic Ken Tucker has listened to all 83 songs and has a review of this trove of new Bruce music.

[Ken Tucker]

We inhabited each other like it some kind of disease I thought that I was blind but I Crawling Everybody's Got a Blind Spot brings up and down.

[Bruce Springsteen]

A workaholic and a pack rat. Bruce Springsteen is known for the volume as well as the quality of his music. These seven so called lost albums each represent collections that at the time of recording were polished up and ready to go, but then were held back for various reasons. I'll give you an example in the liner notes to the album now called the Streets of Philadelphia Sessions. Springsteen says this material, created mostly alone in the studio during the 1990s, would have followed, quote, three solo albums about relationships in a row. He felt the sustained downbeat tone might test his audience's patience, so he switched gears, got the E Street Band back in action, and went in a different direction. But it's nice to hear some of these quiet, intimate compositions, such as the.

[Ken Tucker]

Little Things she said we could just sleep together There'd been nothing wrong.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Yeah.

[Ken Tucker]

We could just hold each other with our clothes on I went dancing.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

I.

[Ken Tucker]

Don'T think we should and I heard a voice say Guess we could she kissed me lightly Said, you know sometimes when you're down it's the little things that come.

[Bruce Springsteen]

The seven albums in this collection include Inyo, consisting of original folk songs influenced by Springsteen's motorcycle trips around California, Texas and Mexico. There's another album called Somewhere north of Nashville, full of pedal steel guitar, and the Bruce version of country music. My favorite moment on that one isn't a Springsteen original But a lovely cover of Johnny Rivers great 1966 number one hit, poor side of Town.

[Ken Tucker]

How can you tell me that you miss me? The last time I saw you.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

You.

[Ken Tucker]

Wouldn'T even kiss that rich guy you've been seeing. Really must have put you down. So welcome back, baby, to the Poor side of Town.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Given seven albums of material, there are inevitable weak spots. Faithless, described as the soundtrack to a western movie that was never shot, is rather listless, A slowpoke cowpoke. Another album that's a kind of stunt is Twilight Hours. By contrast, the best album of the seven is the LA Garage Sessions, the sparse lo fi one man band recordings he cut in 1983. This was after Springsteen's solo album Nebraska and before his huge E Street hit Born in the usa. In the liner notes, he refers to these sessions as a critical bridge between those two albums. It includes some marvelously unpretentious music, including the Beach Boys ish Don't Back down on Our Love and this song called Little Girl like youe that carries echoes of the Everly Brothers.

[Ken Tucker]

I'm on a little house on a little hill I wanna settle down yeah, think I would settle down and find a little love is true Settle down with a girl like you I seen a lot of girls, had a lot of fun I ran around a lot now my run is done Honey, all I wanna, wanna be running to Is the arms of a girl like you.

[Bruce Springsteen]

At its best, this capacious grab bag of music yields not just good songs, but songs that seem unlike anything else Springsteen has ever done from the album called Perfect World. I love this thundercloud ballad called if I Could Only Be youe Lover, which sounds like the theme to a film noir not yet made.

[Ken Tucker]

Just another town, another house boarded up Foreclosure sign Once this town, this house and you were mine A rug stood latch on a backyard fence Swing set swallowed up in weeds Grown up some back porch stairs I could only feel.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Love.

[Ken Tucker]

I never covered any other.

[Bruce Springsteen]

Most of these lost albums contain striking songs that would have deepened our understanding of both Springsteen's process and his value during any of the periods during which the music was made. Spilling out these 83 tunes now is like finding the missing jigsaw puzzle pieces that enable fans to complete the full picture of who Bruce Springsteen has been for the past four decades.

[Sam Brigger]

Ken Tucker reviewed Bruce Springsteen's new collection of previously unreleased music. It's called Tracks 2, the Lost Albums. Coming up, we hear from actor Eben Moss Bachrach, best known for playing Cousin Richie on the show the Bear. I'm Sam Brigger and this is FRESH AIR Weekend.

[NPR Sponsor]

This message comes from Thuma. Create your oasis with Thuma, a modern design company that specializes in furniture and home goods by stripping away everything but the essential. Thuma makes elevated beds with premium materials and intentional details with clean lines, subtle curves and minimalist style. The Thuma bed collection is available in four signature finishes to match any design aesthetic. To get $100 towards your first bed purchase, go to Thuma Co NPR this.

Message comes from BetterHelp. Workplace stress can be difficult to manage and a holiday can help, but it isn't a long term solution. Therapy can help you navigate whatever challenges the workday or any day might bring. Take the steps to care for yourself and relieve stress with BetterHelp, the largest online therapy provider in the world. Visit betterhelp.com NPR for 10% off your.

First month support for NPR. And the following message come from the Pew Charitable Trusts sharing about the state of housing in America on the after the Fact podcast available at pewtrusts.org afterthefact.

[Sam Brigger]

Our next guest, Eben Moss Bachrach has won two consecutive Emmy Awards for playing the role of Richie in the FX series the Bear. The show, which has won 21 Emmys altogether, is now in its fourth season. Moss Bachrach spoke to Fresh Air's Anne Marie Baldonado.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

When we first meet the character Richie in the Bear, he's loud, abrasive and ornery. We get the sense that he's like this all the time. But he's also dealing with the recent death of his best friend and business partner, Michael, and the return of Michael's younger brother, Carmi. Carmi left Chicago to work at the world's best restaurants, and now he wants to transform the neighborhood sandwich shop Richie used to run with Michael. Here's Eben Moss Backrack as Richie with Jeremy Allen White as Carmi and Iowa Debris as Sidney Robert from the first episode of the series.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Hold on. Listen, let's just have a conversation for a second. Whoa. Is this.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

This is Sydney I'm staging today.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

You're what in today?

[Jeffrey Seller]

Sydney. She's helping us out today.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Cousin, you ordered different mayonnaise, bro.

[Jeffrey Seller]

No. Oh, you chef.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Yeah. Oh, you chef this biff. He was using them to make a giant nut muff.

[Jeffrey Seller]

It was a play on a panettonia. It would have been beautiful if you let me finish it.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Richie Jaramovich, Pleasure to meet you, sweetheart.

[Jeffrey Seller]

Don't say sweetheart.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

You darn. Carm, you're so woke. I meant nothing by It Sydney Saint Sweetheart's just part of our Italian heritage. Okay, Listen, I'm trying to talk to you, okay? Don't be rude and start doing a million things like, oh, I'm smart.

[Jeffrey Seller]

I don't ever have any time to.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Take care of your mom for six. I got all kinds of receipts from my divorce lawyer backing up. Cause all the time I've spent trying to put your family back together. Cause you're too much of a to come home. The guys are texting me. You're telling them to do all sorts of weird shit backwards. Don't do that, Carmen. Don't go messing with our heads and ordering different mayonnaise and hiring new bras without talking to me first. This is your brother's house, okay? Yeah. Remember? I was running it fine without you.

[Jeffrey Seller]

Why didn't he leave it to you then?

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

As the show goes on, the viewers grow to love Richie, learning all the ways that he's hurting, which include the end of his marriage and his worry about losing a relationship with his young daughter. Ma's Bachrach has won two Emmy Awards for best supporting actor in a comedy series for playing Richie. He played Desi on the TV series Girls and starred in shows including Andor and the Punisher. He's also appeared in many plays and films over the decades. And next month, he co stars in the next big Marvel film, the Fantastic Four Steps. Eben Moss Backrack, welcome to FRESH air.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Thanks. Thank you.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

I know that you're very protective of the characters that you play, so I want you to know I mean this in the best possible way. I think that Richie is the character I've done the most dramatic 180 on, maybe ever. We just heard Richie from the beginning of the series, but as the show goes on, I know I'm not alone when I say that we're rooting for Richie. I feel that in many ways, he's the heart of the show, which is a testament to the writing and to your performance. What did you know early on about the journey that Richie was gonna take?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

I knew that this was a man who was suffering, who was finding himself in a world that he didn't really recognize anymore, who felt under threat, back against the wall, kind of, you know, trying to grab anything that was could keep him afloat. And somebody in that position, I think that kind of a part can hold a lot of volatile, dangerous, spontaneous behavior. Sort of like a lot can be justified by somebody who's fighting for their survival. And then as somebody who's at a certain point in my life, you know, I also related to this guy just seeing, you know, so many things that I loved in my neighborhood, in my city, changing and seeing things, everything. Becoming a bank, you know, I really related to him in that way.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

I will say that the Bear can be a pretty stressful watch. You know, there's yelling often, adrenaline always, and there's, you know, this anxiety that pulses throughout a lot of the time. What is it like to film? Does it feel that pitched as you're doing it? Does it feel that, like, high octane?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

It's funny for me to think about, like, a set that would be, like, how the. How the scenes are, like, they call cut, and then everyone's screaming at each other and putting out the cigarettes that were in the scene and then lighting up cigarettes that they're gonna smoke in between takes. No, I mean, to make something that alive feeling, in a way, I think, you know, it takes an enormous amount of rehearsal between the actors, between the actors in the camera department and the props department. Like, we have such a deep and wonderful crew that, you know, it really requires a lot of sensitivity and listening. I think the people involved in making the Bear listen a lot more than Richie, Sidney, and Carmi. So it's a very loving, fun, calm, well run set.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

I want to play a scene from season three of the show. The restaurant is getting off the ground, but both Richie and Carmi are still battling. They've just had a huge fight on the first day of service for friends and family, and they really yelled hateful things at each other. The character Richie even calls Carmi Dee Dee, which is Carmi's mom's name. And calling him that may be one of the biggest insults Richie could give because, you know, that mom is pretty, you know, troubled. Anyway, they're trying to get back on track and have the restaurant be successful, but they have different ideas about how to do that. So here's the scene.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Hey, Chef Sid, have you seen my iron? Also, when you have a sec, would you ask Chef Carmen what the he did with my tables out front?

[Jeffrey Seller]

Chef Sid, would you please tell Richard that I thought I would set him up for success and arrange his tables in a more efficient pattern.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Is that what you do?

[Jeffrey Seller]

Yes, that's what I did. It was really funny. I walked in, and it was so strange. It looked like the person who had done it previously had never left the city of Chicago.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

I can leave the city of Chicago out of it.

[Jeffrey Seller]

Zero flow, no efficiency. So I thought I'd give you a hand.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Chef Sid, would you Tell Chef Carmen that I can give him a hand if he wants.

[Jeffrey Seller]

He wants to give me a hand.

[Bruce Springsteen]

He can give me.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

I just might suggest that the both of you stop, because I don't like this at all.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Sid, it's fine. Chef Carmen uses power phrases because he's a baby replicant who's not self actualized. Which is maybe why he repeatedly referred to me as a loser.

[Jeffrey Seller]

Richie, I apologize.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

No, no, no. It's all good. I don't need your apology. I know how you feel now. Also, I respect your honesty and bravery from inside a locked vault.

[Jeffrey Seller]

You know what? Matter of fact, Chef Sydney, I don't remember Richard apologizing for all the. He was literally screaming at me while I was in the fight.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

I love you.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

No.

[Jeffrey Seller]

What?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

You know what? Out there, that's my dojo gets rearranged without my approval or consent. It creates an environment of fear, and fear does not exist in that dojo.

[Jeffrey Seller]

Richard, I added more. Two tops. Cause all those four tops were nonsense.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Okay? All the four tops in the four cups, I lose the flowers because.

[Jeffrey Seller]

Jesus Christ, that was a lot of flowers.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Those. Those flatters are arrogant.

[Jeffrey Seller]

Apologizing. And you're screaming.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Am I?

[Jeffrey Seller]

Yeah.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Yeah, you are. Oh, yeah, that's. Is it rich? Richard, you want to get the out of my face?

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Shut up, please.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Sorry, Sid. It's just textbook sublimation. You've seen it once, you've seen it a thousand times.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

I actually don't know what to do right now. That's a scene from season three of the Bear with IO Debris. Jeremy Allen White and Eben Moss Backrack. When a scene is like that, with that much screaming, is it written that way or are you sort of improvising how you approach the arguing?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

That scene, to quote Walter in The Big Lebowski 8 year olds, dude, that scene was as written. I mean, you know, at this point in Richie's life, you know, he's trying to do some work, he's reading some self help books. And, you know, I don't really have that kind of vernacular at my disposal. Like, you know, all the self actualization. And I'm sure there were some changes in words from take to take, but. Yeah, I wouldn't call it like improvising.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

There's an episode that's focused on Richie's character called Forks, and it's great, and it sort of marks a transition for Richie where he seems to find new purpose. It's season two. They're trying to open the restaurant, and Carmi has sent your character, Richie to train at another restaurant, one that's called one of the best restaurants in the world. I've read that you found filming this episode to be lonely. It's a quieter episode, and you're really the only member of the regular cast in it. What was it like filming this one?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Yeah, I mean, I found it lonely in a way. I thought the lighting was cold. It had a very different color to it than the rest of our episodes. There's usually a real warmth. And the bear in this one felt kind of blue and austere, almost like an operating room. I mean, I really love the people I work with. And my favorite scenes to shoot, we said, are, like the group scenes where, you know, I'm talking with Liza and Lionel and Edwin, and everyone's sort of talking over each other and there's this shorthand. And here I was without any of those kind of hallmarks of the experience that I'd grown to love and was looked forward to. And I was working with all new actors. I remember the layout of this restaurant was so confusing. I could never find where the bathroom was or where my little. I carved out some little. Like, put my chair in, like, some corner where I could sort of be alone and look at my lines and think about scenes and stuff, and I could never find my way back to it. I was just confused. I think most of the time, I.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Think that comes out in the episode, actually. That starkness and that confusion.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Yeah. I mean, it's an episode that I don't. I've seen it once kind of through, you know, like, squinting eyes, behind hands. It's just a lot of me for me to take in, to be honest.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

One thing that's heartbreaking about Richie is how he mourns the end of his marriage. And because of flashbacks, we know that. It seems like on the timeline, as recently as five years ago, Richie and his wife were together. They were about to have a baby, and they were very much together. But by the time we meet Richie five years later, his marriage is over and his ex wife is with someone else. And I wanna play a scene from that episode. Forks. Richie is working at the Michelin Star restaurant for that week. He's taking a break and gets a phone call from his ex wife, played by Gillian Jacobs.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Hey.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Hey. How are you?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

I'm. I'm great. I'm great. You know. What's going on? Is Eva okay? No, she's great.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

She's totally great. Yeah.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Oh, yo, Jimmy, I got those Taylor Swift tics. You did? Yeah. She's gonna Be so excited. I know, right? It's incredible. I got three if you want to come. You know, you don't have to. No, no, no. It's.

[Terry Gross]

I.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

That's so sweet. That's so sweet.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

I. I just. I know you're really busy, so I wanted to just tell you something, and it's a little bit hard to say.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Okay. Are you all right? I'm fine.

[Jeffrey Seller]

Yeah, I'm fine.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

I just want you to hear it from me. Frank proposed to me.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

What'd you say?

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

I said yes. He's, like, a really good guy.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

That's great, Tiff. Thank you.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

And I want you to know that nothing's gonna change between us.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

That's awesome. You know, and I love you.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

That's a scene from season two of the Bear. Will we learn more about what happened to their marriage in that relatively short period of time?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Yeah, that scene. Bear. A comedy. Yeah.

[Jeffrey Seller]

That seems brutal.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Gillian Jacobs, such is such a great actress. I love working with her. Unfortunately, most of our scenes are phone calls because they don't have much of a relationship anymore. Actually, I do think there's a lot of tenderness there, and she genuinely loves them. Do we learn more about what happened with them? We spend more time with them together as parents, as exes. In terms of a literal sense of a flashback of the two of them, that's not something that we've shot.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Do you do work to fill in what might have happened to them?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I spent a lot of time kind of daydreaming and thinking about these things and filling in the blanks. And these are. These are thoughts and fantasies and ideas that I will never share.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Understood. I think one thing that makes viewers love Richie is the way that he is with his daughter. Even though he's divorced, he's so devoted to her and doing the right thing by her and trying to be a good dad. Besides having what seems like a tough upbringing where he sort of, you know, so much so that he becomes part of the family that own the restaurant. You have two daughters, and I think that being a parent of girls can be very. A very specific parenting experience. What did you want to make sure that you brought to Richie as a father?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

I mean, some of the things that are. That are challenging for him and making it difficult for him to navigate his way through the world, like loyalty, honesty, in a way. You know, these things, I think are sometimes hindrances and sometimes, you know, they're really great qualities. And I wanted. I wanted to see the kind of converse of Some of these things in his relationship with his daughter. Obviously, he's a dad that would do anything for his daughter, like so many parents. Like most parents, I would say. And then he's really into her world and where he doesn't listen as well on the outside with her. His time with her is so limited that it's so valuable. And I think each minute is something that he really invests himself and tries to be present in a way that he's not when he's at the restaurant. I also. I don't know, I just enjoy doing scenes with that little actress so much. I think she's so great and. I don't know, she's so fascinating. She's such an eccentric young girl.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

There's a scene later in that episode where Richie has completely won everyone over at the fancy restaurant. He's really getting it and getting the value of his work. And he's driving home singing along to the Taylor Swift song Love Story. And it's this great triumphant moment for Richie. How did that moment come about? Like, was that always the song? I read you weren't necessarily a swiftie before you shot this. It's just such a great moment.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Yeah, it is a great moment. I'm not gonna comment about my swifties or non swiftiness. That's a minefield. Either way. It's just.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yeah. I can't believe I did that to you.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Yeah, please, please. Come on. But I think that scene is a great scene. And it's so nice to spend just a few minutes, like singing something loudly and celebrating and having exuberance and driving and singing along with a song that you love loudly. I mean, that's such a visceral, great kind of release. Something that we don't see that much, I think, in movies and TV shows, or certainly. Certainly stuff that I'm not being asked to do all that much. So, yeah, I really enjoyed that evening. I love those speed bumps. I love the squeaks, the squeak of the suspension in the car. But that was always written with that scene. I'm sure it was a process finding her, tracking her down, getting permission to use the song. But I don't really know about the details of that process.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Well, there's something perfect about that song because it's like a triumphant young love story, which seems like an echo to Richie's story. And then also just that he got her Taylor Swift tickets. That's like. I mean, that's like dad of the Year material. So I feel like it just wraps it all together. And then also as you're driving, you're still cursing. As you're driving, the character Richie is still cursing at other drivers, which I think is also pretty richy cosing.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Yeah. And what you couldn't see is all these Arby's, these empty Arby's cups in the backseat, just jumping up with every kind of speed bump, the chaos within the car.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Eben Moss Bachrach, thank you so much for joining us.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.

[Sam Brigger]

Eben Moss Bachrach spoke to Fresh Air's Amarie Baldonado. The Bear Season 4 is now streaming on Hulu. Fresh AIR Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. For Terry Gross and Tanya Moselie, I'm Sam Bricker.

[NPR Sponsor]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Capella University. Sometimes it takes a different approach to pursue your goals. Capella is an online university accredited by the Higher Learning Commission. That means you can earn your degree from wherever you are and be confident your education is relevant, recognized and respected. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more about earning a relevant [e-mail]. this message comes from NPR sponsor Oracle. In business, they say you can have better, cheaper or faster, but you only get to pick two. What if you could have all three at the same time? Oracle Cloud Infrastructure is the blazing fast platform for your infrastructure, database, application development and AI needs. With oci, you can run any workload in a high availability, consistently high performance environment and spend less than you would with other clouds. To try OCI for free with zero commitment, go to oracle.com npr.