Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell

Summary

Fresh Air: Best Of – Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens & 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
Release Date: March 8, 2025

I. Doreen Ketchens: A New Orleans Jazz Icon

A. Introduction and Musical Legacy
In this episode, host Tanya Moseley welcomes Doreen Ketchens, a revered clarinetist and vocalist from New Orleans. Known affectionately by nicknames such as Lady Louie, Queen Clarinet, and Ms. Satchmo—references to her idol Louis Armstrong—Doreen has been a staple in the French Quarter for nearly four decades. She performs daily on the corner of Royal and St. Peter streets with her band, Doreen's Jazz New Orleans.

B. Personal Journey and Dedication
Doreen shares heartfelt memories of her late husband, Lawrence Ketchens, who was not only her life partner but also a talented musician in the band. Discussing Lawrence's passing in January, Doreen expresses her determination to continue performing, stating, “I don’t want to get haunted for the rest of my life... You gotta play no matter what” ([05:18]). This resilience stems from the strength she draws from Lawrence’s enduring presence in her life and performances.

C. Unique Musical Techniques and Influences
Doreen delves into her distinctive clarinet techniques, particularly her signature growl. She explains, “There are two ways of doing a growl... I picked the Spanish R because I thought the transition to and from was smoother” ([09:48]). Her dedication to maintaining a high standard in her music is evident as she strives to keep evolving: “I want to be above that... I want to be the best” ([10:58]). Louis Armstrong’s influence remains a cornerstone of her artistry, inspiring her to continuously find new depths in familiar melodies.

D. Collaborative Performances and Innovations
Doreen recounts the inventive musical synergy between her and Lawrence, highlighting his ability to play the sousaphone and drums simultaneously. She remarks, “Necessity is the mother of invention, and he invented the tuba drummer” ([08:42]). This creativity allowed their performances to fill spaces traditionally occupied by separate instruments, enriching their jazz renditions.

II. Natasha Rothwell: Expanding Her Horizons in 'The White Lotus'

A. Career Overview and Recent Achievements
Natasha Rothwell joins the conversation as an award-winning actor, writer, and series creator. She discusses her return to HBO’s The White Lotus for its third season set in Thailand, where she reprises her role as Belinda, a spa manager navigating complex interpersonal dynamics. Additionally, Natasha touches upon her Hulu series How to Die Alone, which won an Independent Spirit Award for Best Ensemble Cast.

B. Experiences on Set and Character Development
Natasha reflects on the differences between shooting the first and third seasons of The White Lotus. While the first season felt like a “zoom TV show” due to COVID-19 restrictions, the third season in Thailand offers a broader and more immersive environment. She notes, “What grounded me in the bigness of what the show has become are the people... it felt like returning home” ([38:19]).

C. Themes of Servitude and Privilege
The latest season delves deeper into themes of entitlement, servitude, and white privilege. Natasha discusses how her character, Belinda, embodies these themes by serving as a moral compass for other characters, highlighting issues like code-switching and the complexities of her role as both a servant and a confidante.

D. Writing for 'Saturday Night Live' and Creative Contributions
Natasha shares her experiences auditioning for and writing on Saturday Night Live (SNL). She recounts crafting a memorable monologue for Taraji P. Henson during her tenure as a writer, blending humor with personal insight. In the monologue titled "I Made It," Taraji humorously reflects on her career milestones, a piece Natasha describes as a “team effort” inspired by her church roots and early musical influences ([47:42]–[50:10]).

E. Advocacy for Black Representation and Travel
Highlighting the importance of representation, Natasha discusses a scene she pitched where Belinda encounters another Black guest in Thailand. She emphasizes the significance of seeing oneself reflected in different spaces, stating, “When you see yourself reflected in a space that, I mean, it just lets you know you belong there” ([42:10]). This moment serves as an affirmation of identity and belonging, counteracting the isolation often felt by Black travelers.

III. Insights and Reflections

Both Doreen Ketchens and Natasha Rothwell exemplify dedication to their crafts and advocacy for meaningful representation in their respective fields. Doreen’s unwavering commitment to jazz honors her legacy while pushing artistic boundaries, whereas Natasha’s multifaceted career bridges acting, writing, and creating spaces for Black stories in mainstream media.

Notable Quotes:

• Doreen Ketchens:
  “I don’t want to get haunted for the rest of my life... You gotta play no matter what.” ([05:18])

• Natasha Rothwell:
  “When you see yourself reflected in a space... it just lets you know you belong there.” ([42:10])

Conclusion
This episode of Fresh Air offers an intimate look into the lives of two remarkable women shaping their industries—Doreen Ketchens through her enduring jazz performances and Natasha Rothwell through her innovative roles and creative endeavors. Their conversations underscore themes of resilience, creativity, and the importance of representation, providing listeners with both inspiration and a deeper understanding of contemporary arts and issues.

Transcript

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[Tanya Moseley]

In Philadelphia, this is FRESH AIR WEEKEND. I'm Tanya Moseley. Today we're joined by a New Orleans institution, clinic clarinetist and vocalist Doreen Ketchens. She's got several nicknames, Lady Louie, Queen clarinet and Ms. Satchmo, all after her biggest idol, Louis Armstrong. Like the jazz great, Doreen has the gift of hitting long, high notes. She and her band Doreen's Jazz New Orleans have performed on the corner of Royal and St. Peter's street in the French Quarter for almost four decades. And we'll also talk with Natasha Rothwell. She returns to HBO's the White Lotus as Belinda, a spa manager who was duped in season one by a wealthy visitor played by Jennifer Coolidge. And book critic Maureen Corrigan. Reviews last seen a book about newly freed black Americans in the 1860s who took out ads to find lost family members. That's coming up on FRESH AIR weekend.

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[Tanya Moseley]

This is FRESH AIR weekend. I'm Tonya Moseley, and if you're ever in the French Quarter in New Orleans, chances are you've spotted my guest today, clarinetist and vocalist Doreen ketchens. For over 30 years, she's performed on the corner of Royal and St. Peter street four days a week, sometimes 12 hours a day, with her band, Doreen's Jazz New Orleans. Doreen Ketchins has many nicknames, Lady Louie, Queen clarinet and Ms. Satchmo nods to her passionate performances of Dixieland and traditional jazz and for her ability to hit and hold high notes for long periods of time. Like the great trumpeter Louis Armstrong, Ketchins has performed for four US presidents, Bill Clinton, George H.W. bush, Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter. And initially she played classical clarinet before her late husband, Lawrence Ketchens, introduced her to jazz while the two were students at Loyola University. Lawrence was an accomplished musician in his own right, too. As part of Doreen's band, he played the tuba, valve trombone, drums and piano, becoming a major attraction for his ability to play the sousaphone and drums at the same time. A few years ago, Ketchens fulfilled her dream of performing at the Kennedy Center. She's also played with orchestras around the world. Doreen Ketchens, welcome to FRESH air.

[Doreen Ketchens]

Thanks for having me.

[Tanya Moseley]

I want to offer my sincerest condolences on the loss of your husband, Lawrence, who just died this past January. And I had the pleasure of going down the rabbit hole of watching your performances. And aside from being utterly captivated, I was also just taken by what felt like magic watching the two of you performing together. Are you still performing?

[Doreen Ketchens]

Yep. I mean, I don't want to get haunted for the rest of my life. You know, that's what he'd do. He used to always tell me, you gotta play no matter what. So that's what I'm doing. And it's working. It's working. I get strength from just thinking about the times he's been in the audience, you know, and giving me a nod, you know, one way or the other.

[Tanya Moseley]

It seemed like there was such a great love between the two of you. And your love language was the music. You all performed together for many decades. And I think maybe a beautiful way to start our conversation is to actually hear a little bit of the two of you. I watched this video of you two performing for the New Orleans jazz station wwoz, and there you are playing the clarinet and singing, and Lawrence was playing sousaphone and the drums at the same time. I don't actually think I've Ever seen that in my life? I was thinking, how can I play a little bit of that performance?

[Doreen Ketchens]

Yes, please.

[Tanya Moseley]

The song is House of the Rising Sun.

[Doreen Ketchens]

Is a house in you all these they call the ro. It's been the run over many young.

[Tanya Moseley]

Line.

[Doreen Ketchens]

And now I know who I want.

[Tanya Moseley]

That was my guest today, Doreen Ketchens and her late husband Lawrence, playing House of the Rising Sun. Doreen, what a remarkable performance. I mean, as I mentioned, Lawrence is playing the drums and blowing into that sousaphone, which is a type of tuba, at the same time. How did he figure out that he had that talent?

[Doreen Ketchens]

We had drummer problems, and the drummer didn't show up, and he was tired of it, you know, and we were on the street. He said he wasn't that good anyway. I bet you I could play just as good as him and play the tour. And so he sat behind the drums and he took one stick in his left hand, and he just started to do it. I mean, just like that. It was there. He can't play roles and stuff like that, so he does the inflections, you know what I mean? So if you're just listening to the drummer, you know, there's a lot of space in there, but if you're listening to the group, then he fills in all of these spaces that you would normally hear the drummer do. It's just amazing, you know, but necessity is the mother of invention, and he invented the tuba drummer.

[Tanya Moseley]

One thing I notice is that you've got a growl that, you know, it's not only present in your singing voice, but we also heard it while you were playing the clarinet. How do you do that? Like, you make your clarinet growl?

[Doreen Ketchens]

People have asked me about that growl a lot, so I did it. Actually, I did some videos on it on YouTube during the pandemic when I was going absolutely crazy because I couldn't go out and play. But there are two ways of doing a growl. There's one with the throat, you know, like that, like you're gargling. And there's another one with the tongue, like a Spanish R, you know. And both of them basically sound the same when I do them. But you pick one, you know, And I picked the Spanish R because I thought the transition to and from was smoother. So. And that's how I do it. I just. That's how I do it. That's it.

[Tanya Moseley]

You know, to watch you perform, you really are. You're like putting your whole body into it. Your eyes are closed. And I mean, I guess that's not unusual. I mean, when you are, like, intensely focused on your instrument, I've heard you say when you're playing, you're constantly digging for more information within yourself. And I was like, wow, really taken by that. But also wonder more of what you mean.

[Doreen Ketchens]

I mean, just like with anything else, you know, if you're a parent, you want to be a better parent than your parent, even though you had a great parent, you know. But I just don't want to fall into a rut. People are growing up listening to what I'm doing, what I did, and, you know, I want to be above that. It's flattering in some senses, you know, it's insulting because people steal your licks and everything else, and they don't acknowledge it, you know, but it's still, you know, you want to stay ahead of the game. You want to be the best. Louis Armstrong is like a big influence on me. And I have listened to. Well, I thought, up until the other day, actually, I thought I listened to everything that was out there by Louis Armstrong. But there's always something new, you know. But I can hear the same song over that I've heard for hundreds of times and find something new inside of it. It's amazing.

[Tanya Moseley]

Is there a favorite Armstrong? I know that's like asking, is there a favorite child? But is there a favorite song of his that you love or you go back too often?

[Doreen Ketchens]

Yeah, that is like asking about a child, you know, I mean, because there's some that strike me in certain ways and others that strike me in others, you know. I mean, when you say that, you know, La Vie en Rouge comes to mind and probably because my daughter hates it.

[Tanya Moseley]

Oh, really? Why?

[Doreen Ketchens]

She says, yeah, but. And then, you know, she got. She got. She fell in love and stuff like that, and she, like, understood it, you know, and stuff like that. But La Vieanne Rose comes to mind because, you know, he had a way of doing things, you know, sort of like Nat King Cole, you know, you can hear Nat King Cole singing French in Spanish. It ain't the best French in Spanish, you know, but it's great, you know, because he had that respect, you know, for it. And you can hear Louis do all kinds of different kinds of music, you know, and still know it's Louis first note, you know. I mean, so I just aspire to just be great. And in order to be great, you gotta keep aspiring to be great, you know?

[Tanya Moseley]

Do you have your own take on that favorite. On your favorite Armstrong song? And if so, can you play a little bit of it? Not the whole thing, but just a bit.

[Doreen Ketchens]

Oh, la vie on rose. I set myself up for that, didn't it? Let me. When you speak Angels sing from above Everyday word sing to turn into love songs Give your heart and soul to me I'm. Life will always be long. Vic.

[Tanya Moseley]

Thank you so much for that. I mean, you nicknamed all of these names, you know, Lady Louie for a reason, and that's very clear, some of the reasons why. But I'm very curious to know, when did you first discover yourself in Armstrong? Do you remember when you. You first heard that within his music yourself?

[Doreen Ketchens]

Yeah, I didn't. I didn't realize it at all. I was just doing what I do. I was just learning songs and playing songs. And somebody asked me when I was. And I was singing, you know, they said, how do you do that with those words? And I'm like, what are you talking about? And, you know, just Louis spoke like my dad, you know. And so without realizing it, you know, instead of saying word, I say worried, you know, stuff like that, you know, because that's what, you know, I grew up with. You know, you change with society. You know, you go to college and you say, well, that boy, like, what the heck are you talking about? You know what I mean? But, you know, it always comes back when I do that. And a lot of the melodies, you know, the way he interpreted the melodies and stuff, I really, really, really liked it, you know, and it appealed to me. So, you know, sometimes, you know, I start off like I learn the melody right from him, you know, I'll do exactly what he does. But as, you know, as I play it, as I develop, you know, with the song, it becomes me. I change a few things, you know, because he played a trumpet and I play a clarinet, you know, and he was a much older man. I was a much younger woman. And just other things that come into play that you don't expect, but they do because it's human nature, you know. So, yeah, I didn't realize it, but once I realized it, I embraced it and just rolled with it, you know, and I'm still rolling with it.

[Tanya Moseley]

My guest is clarinetist and vocalist Doreen Ketchens. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is FRESH AIR weekend.

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[Tanya Moseley]

Fixture in the French Quarter of New Orleans, but tell us a little bit more about the area that you grew up in.

[Doreen Ketchens]

I grew up in the Treme. And yeah, a lot of people are familiar with that neighborhood because of the TV series. And I grew up in a house that I was christened in. Actually, it used to be a church. It was a church, and I was christened in that very house. And then it became a whole bunch of other things. But yep, right in the middle. And my parents had a sweet shop and named after me. Named it after me. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a whole nother New Orleans traditional story in itself.

[Tanya Moseley]

Please tell the story of how the clarinet became your instrument, because it's an infamous story that you tell that you started playing to get out of a pop quiz in elementary school.

[Doreen Ketchens]

Yep. It was amazing. We were at my favorite subject, which was lunch, and there was a talk of a pop quiz. And it's like they said, we're gonna have a pop quiz when we go back. And I'm like, we ain't never had no pop quiz, you know. Well, of course we got back up and there was a pop quiz, and I got the stink eye from so many people, you know, but the quiz was as such because there was like 30 kids in the classroom. And he'd go down the line, he'd ask one question, and if you got it right, you passed. If you got it wrong, you failed. And I looked out the window and I said, oh, God, he'd get me out of this. I'll do anything. And about two minutes later, the principal came on the loudspeaker and she said, anybody interested in joining the band Report to the band room immediately. And I'm like, oh, my goodness gracious. I raised my hand. Of course, everybody else raised their hand, too, but by God's grace, he picked me. And I'm running down the hall, and I was so happy, you know, and we went to the band room, and, you know, we spent all our time in that classroom. But when I got to the band room, it was a huge room, and it was beautiful. They had music notes and, you know, pictures of instruments all over the walls and stuff like that. And I saw the flute, and I was like, oh, wow, look at that. I said, I'm going to play the flute. The band director, Mr. Berthelot, you know, he started out introducing different instruments and saying different things. And then he asked, you know, he went row by row asking, what do you want to play? Well, I already knew what I wanted to play because the flute was so sleek and so silver and so beautiful. But the girl in front of me, she said, the flute. The girl next to her, she said, the flute. And it went on and on about seven or nine times. And by the time he was getting close to me, I was like, well, I don't want to play that now. It's a pretty common instrument, you know, and the clarinet was right next to it. So I said, I'll play that. And that's what I was playing with, clarinet. Of course, they had about five or six other girls that said clarinet because they were boy instruments and girl instruments, you know.

[Tanya Moseley]

Right.

[Doreen Ketchens]

But I was the first one, so I was all right with that. And it worked out pretty good.

[Tanya Moseley]

You're classically trained. When did jazz become your genre?

[Doreen Ketchens]

Oh, that. Lawrence. We were in college, and he knocked on my practice room one day. I went to this performing arts school called noca, you know, New Orleans center for Creative Arts. And I used to practice in his closet, the janitor's closet. And in the janitor's closet, you could hear the clarinet all through the school. But since it was a performing arts school, nobody complained, you know? And one day, Ellis Marcellus knocked on my door, and he said, hey, you sound pretty good on that. You know, you oughta. You ever thought about playing some jazz? And I'm like, no. And he said, well, why don't you listen to some jazz clarinetists and see what you think, you know? I'm like, okay. And Ellis Marcellus always did intimidate me, you know?

[Tanya Moseley]

And for those who don't know, I mean, he's a legend, but he's a. Was an acclaimed pianist and Educator. And his sons, of course, are legends in jazz, too.

[Doreen Ketchens]

Yeah. So, you know, I was like. He said, why don't you take a listen and, you know, let me know what you think. And I'm like, okay. And see, I wasn't enthused because that's homework, you know, in addition to everything else I had to do. Now I gotta go to the library. Cause, you know, you can't just take out your phone and go and look for, you know, I gotta go to the library. I gotta check this out and all this other stuff. But I did, because I knew he was coming back, you know, And I listened, and I heard a lot of clarinetists, you know, George Lewis, you know, Pete Fountain and, you know, Benny Goodman, Artie Shaw. And I respected what they did, but we were different. You know, I was concentrating more on tone and technique, and they were more concentrated on jamming, you know, bending the notes and not really concerned about tone and stuff like that, you know, so. Wasn't my thing. And so, you know, a few days later, he knocked on the door again, and he said, well, what'd you think? And I was like, you know, it's really not my thing. I can appreciate what they're doing, but it's not my thing. And he said, well, you're entitled to your opinion. And as I tell you that, I could still see him saying that before he closed the door. And I just. I thought the world was going to end because I just made Mr. Marsalis angry, you know? But he wasn't. He wasn't angry. He was just chilling, you know? And then I went to Loyola, and just to cut the story short, I was practicing in the practice room, and, you know, there was a knock on the door. And I looked at the door. It was in a cubicle, so you could. You know, the doors were glass. This gorgeous, absolutely gorgeous dude was knocking on the door. And I'm like, may I help you? And he said, almost verbatim, I kid you not. He said, you know, you sound really good on that clarinet. You know, you ought to try playing some jazz. And I was like, ah, okay. So that's how I started playing the jazz.

[Tanya Moseley]

Is it possible for you to play us something to give us an example of the difference between the classical clarinet that you were really into before Lawrence and then what you ultimately came to do?

[Doreen Ketchens]

Well, how about just Mary Had a Little Lamb, and I'll just give you an idea, right? So, you know, straight tone, you know, fill the horn up with air and stuff like that. And, you know, when you go high. So. But when I play jazz, you know, I I still consider those qualities, you know, the quality of the tone and the quality of technique and stuff like that. But, you know, guys would do know what I mean? Stuff like that, which was great in its own respect, you know, but just not. I mean, it's like taboo, you know, for somebody who, you know, played classical clarinet, you know, but, you know, by the grace of God, I figured out a way to combine the two because I wanted to hang with this tuba player, you know, this gorgeous tuba player. So I go something like, so, you know.

[Tanya Moseley]

Doreen Ketchens, thank you so much.

[Doreen Ketchens]

Thank you.

[Tanya Moseley]

Clarinetist and vocalist Doreen Ketchens. When slavery ended in 1865, newly freed black Americans began to search for their lost family members, taking out ads seeking information about children, spouses, siblings and parents. In her new book, Last Seen, historian Judith Gisberg tells us about the stories of people who placed those ads. Book critic Maureen Corrigan has a review.

[Maureen Corrigan]

In 2017, historian Judith Giesberg and her team of graduate student researchers launched a website called the Last Seen Project. It now contains over 4,500 ads placed in newspapers by formerly enslaved people who hope to find family members separate by slavery. The earliest ads date from the 1830s and stretch into the 1920s. Giesberg says that when she's given public lectures about this online archive of ads, the audience always asks the question, did they find each other? Giesberg says. I always answer the question the same way, and no one is ever satisfied with it. I don't know. Giesberg's new book, called Last Seen, is her more detailed response to the question. In each of the 10 chapters here, she closely reads ads placed in search of lost children, mothers, wives, siblings, and even comrades who served in the United States colored troops during the Civil War. Gisberg isn't trying to generate reunion stories, although there are a couple of those. In this book, Giesberg tells us the cruel reality was that the success rate of these advertisements may have been as low as 2%. Instead of happy endings, these ads offer readers something else. They serve as portals into the lived experience of slavery, for instance, countering the Lost Cause myth that enslaved people were settled on Southern plantations and Texas cotton fields. The ads, which often list multiple names of white owners as a finding aid, testify to how black people were sold and resold. The ads that hit hardest are the ones that illuminate what Giesberg refers to as America's traffic in children. Selling children away from their mothers, she says, was the rule of slavery, not the exception. Clara Bashup's story opens Last seen Bashup had been searching for her daughter and son for 30 years when she took out an ad in 1892 in the African American newspaper the Chicago Appeal. Here are some portions I wish to find my daughter, Patience Green. I have no trace of her since she was sold at Richmond, Virginia, in 1859. She was then 12 years of age. John William Harris, my son, went with some servants after the surrender. He was 14 years old. Both belonged to Dick Christian in name only by whom they were sold. The language of Bath is direct and somewhat defiant. Giesberg comments on the words in Name Only that Bashap appended after the name of Dick Christian, the man who owned her children. Against this legal right, Giesberg says, Clara Bashup asserted a moral and emotional one. In comparison, Giesberg unpacks the language of a human interest story aimed at white readers about Bashap's search. That story ran in the New York World newspaper. There, Patience is described as the missing child of an aged mother, and Dick Christian is a country gentleman. Giesberg says that white papers everywhere were publishing similar stories that threw a thick blanket of nostalgia over the history of slavery. Another ad that speaks volumes is one posted in 1879 by Henry Tibbs in the Lost Friends column of a New Orleans paper, the Southwestern Christian advocate. It opens, Mr. Editor, I desire some information about my mother. Tibbs recalls being put in a jail with other boys prior to being sold away. I cried, he writes. Tibbs says he was told that if he would hush, the slave trader would bring my mother there the next morning, which he did. Mother then brought me some cake and candy, and that was the last time I saw her. Throughout Last Scene, Giesberg steps back from these individual ads to give readers the larger historical context that made them necessary. For instance, she reminds readers that no federal agency existed to help freed people locate loved ones after the Civil War ended. Instead, there were things like the Grapevine Telegraph, which she describes as a sophisticated system of surveillance by which enslaved people kept track of one another. And there were the ads, many of which were read aloud in black churches. Those ads testify to the inner strength of people like Henry Tibbs, who was still placing ads in search of his mother when he was 55 years old.

[Tanya Moseley]

Maureen Corrigan is a professor of literature at Georgetown University. She reviewed Last Seen by Judith Giesberg, who also founded the Last Seen Project website. Coming up, we'll hear my conversation with the White Lotus star Natasha Rothwell. I'm Tonya Moseley and this is FRESH AIR Weekend.

[Ron Rutson]

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[Tanya Moseley]

Quite a year so far from my guest Natasha Rothwell. She returns to the third season of the popular HBO show the White Lotus. Her Hulu series How to Die Alone, which she created and starred in, recently won an Independent Spirit Award for best ensemble cast in a new scripted series. The win is bittersweet because the show, which premiered last September, was canceled after just one season. While Rothwell's return to the White Lotus signals a deeper dive into the tension between entitlement and servitude, which has been present along with murder in every season of the show, it follows the storyline of seemingly picture perfect travelers with various dysfunctions who go to the White Lotus resort to escape. In the first season, Rothwell's character, Belinda, is a spa manager at the Hawaii location. She meets a wealthy visitor named Tanya, played by Jennifer Coolidge, and the two strike up a friendship. Belinda shares her dreams of opening up her own spa with Tanya.

[Natasha Rothwell]

I do think that there's a purpose in helping even rich people, you know, helping them to find healing, making them feel more present, more aware. Because rich people, they're the ones that.

[Doreen Ketchens]

You know.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Up the world. Yeah.

[Doreen Ketchens]

I mean, I know a lot of rich white up people. They could really use you. Have you ever thought about starting like your own business?

[Natasha Rothwell]

Come on.

[Doreen Ketchens]

No. Cause I would be down for funding something like that.

[Tanya Moseley]

We watch as Tanya flakes on Valinda, never funding her dream to open a spa, instead running off with another guest who goes on to con and attempt to have Coolidge's character killed. Well. In this latest season in Thailand, Belinda experiences the other side of the guest staff dynamic as a visitor taking part in a White Lotus exchange program. Natasha Rothwell is an award winning actor, writer and series creator. Her early start in comedy included a stint as a writer on Saturday Night Live during the 201415 season. She also starred in HBO's Insecure as Issa's hilarious and sexually liberated friend Kelly. She also served as a writer and supervising producer on the show. Natasha Rothwell, welcome to FRESH air.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Thank you for having me.

[Tanya Moseley]

First, let's talk a little bit about the White Lotus because fans of the White Lotus were very happy to see you return, intrigued because we know that your return means something pretty big. And this season she's at the Thailand resort. So she's there to relax and as I said, learn a few new things to bring back to the resort in Maui. Well, in the clip I'm about to play, your character, Belinda shares what she's been through to a wellness expert assigned to train her ponchai, played by Dom Hetrical. Let's listen.

[Ron Rutson]

So you like Thailand?

[Doreen Ketchens]

Very much. I am happy. You know, before I got here, I was depressed.

[Natasha Rothwell]

My friend there's my boss, actually. He died in this freak accident at work. And this woman, this rich woman, she was supposed to help me open up my own spa, you know, so I could be my own boss. Something I've always wanted to do. And of course, she flakes runs off with some guy she just met.

[Tanya Moseley]

Ah, that was my guest today, Natasha Rothwell in the latest season of the White Lotus. I have to say, the music is always like the other character in the room, isn't it? It's just what Mike White does with music.

[Natasha Rothwell]

It's so special. It really is.

[Tanya Moseley]

This season is in Thailand. But you know, something that I found so interesting is Mike White, who is the writer, the creator of the White Lotus. You know, season one, he had no idea what he had on his hands. You're just making this and you don't know how the public will receive it. I mean, it is such a hit. Now, how different was it for you on the set for this one versus the first season?

[Natasha Rothwell]

Yeah, Mike jokingly said that season one was basically a zoom TV show comparatively. You know, we were, you know, we had one location we weren't permitted to leave because of the COVID protocols. You know, we were shooting.

[Tanya Moseley]

You were shooting in Hawaii during COVID Yeah, pre vaccination.

[Natasha Rothwell]

So it was, we were one of the first, if not the first, you know, production back, and there was a lot of fear, you know, and fear is a really tough place to make anything creative. But Mike somehow created this environment that made us feel safe. And, yeah, we were sold on a limited series. It was one and done, and there was really no expectation that I would come back, and I didn't have it. I didn't. You know, I'm not the type of creator or actor that fights for it because I have deference to the pen, for sure. And so I watched and was excited. And then when Mike asked me to be a part of season three, I was gagged because it's bigger. But I think for me, what grounded me in the bigness of what the show has become are the people. And showing up on set, I'm seeing the same hair and makeup team. I'm seeing the same dp, the same ad, and, you know, it was just felt like returning home. I was like, oh, yeah, like, the heart and soul of the show is the same. It's the perception that's increased. So it felt very comforting to land in Thailand and remember that it is just, at the end of the day, a group of people just trying to make some art, you know.

[Tanya Moseley]

How long did you guys spend in Thailand to shoot?

[Natasha Rothwell]

It varied per actor. I was there for about five months.

[Doreen Ketchens]

Wow.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Yeah. It was not a short trip.

[Tanya Moseley]

There is a theme in the show of mindfulness, and there are lots of references to Buddhism. And really, for these characters, the visitors of this resort, they are coming to grips with the ugliness of who they are and their individual ways. Did you have a spiritual experience while you were in Thailand, or was it work, work, work?

[Natasha Rothwell]

No, I think that, like, you can't help but have a spiritual experience there. It's such a special place. You know, I learned while I was there Thailand has never been colonized. And so it's a really interesting juxtaposition to being from the States, where we're constantly in this trauma response from our history. And to go to a place that doesn't have that, it brings out, I mean, at some level, a certain kind of levity of just being alive.

[Tanya Moseley]

And can you describe or explain, give an example of what you mean by that? Like, the differences?

[Natasha Rothwell]

I mean, they call it the land of smiles. You meet people. There's no preconceived notions of who you are, where you're from. And I think, you know, walking around the world as a black woman, there's all these suppositions about who I am and where I'm from and what I believe in. And they wait for you to declare who you are, what you are about. And even in the language, you know, I found so interesting, when I say swatika, the K is the feminine sort of identifier, and it's given, not received. So even the power to identify, when you say hello to someone, I say the ka to let you know how to receive me, how to.

[Tanya Moseley]

Right. Oh, that's so interesting.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Even so, it's not the other outside in sort of descriptor saying what you are. It's not the world telling you what you are. You're declaring it when you say hello. So it's small things like that. And I think that there's a warmth and a genuine, you know, spirit of acceptance there that just is.

[Tanya Moseley]

There is a scene in the show, it's where you're waiting for dinner and you see another black guest there that was written into the show. Cause you mentioned it to Mike White, right?

[Natasha Rothwell]

Yeah, I pitched it to him. You know, we're close and, you know, I tell him about my travels and the like. And, you know, with Belinda being in a foreign country, I was just, you know, reiterating the importance of black travel and how once when I was traveling to Ireland, I was at some castle on the top of some misty hill. I can't remember. But what I do remember is when I was there, I was the only black person I could see. But this black family, a mother, father and two kids that were, like, around 12 or 11, sort of walk up the hill and break through the mist. And I just looked at them and they looked at me, and we just kind of walked towards each other and hugged. And I was explaining to Mike, I was just like, when you see yourself reflected in a space that you. I mean, it just lets you know you belong there. You know, I think when Belinda in that moment sees this couple, it's just there. She sees that, and it's this, I think, internal affirmation that she can lean back and enjoy her wine in this moment. She doesn't have to be in this servile position as a default. She can experience life from that perspective as well.

[Tanya Moseley]

There are so many themes that this series unpacks through these individual characters and their journeys. Is there anyone in particular that, like, really lights you up or, like, you, like, really are thinking deeply about as you're watching the series. Because it's actually quite deep when you start to think about these issues of servitude and white privilege and wealth and access and all of that.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Yeah, I think that it's such a great question, because I think that when. And you're talking about servitude specifically and Belinda being in a servile position, but stepping out of that this season, I think it highlights code switching. It highlights sort of the passport you'd need to sort of move between those two spaces. I think she's often seen as sort of like this moral compass, moral center, which I think flirts with the idea of sort of the magical Negro that, you know, doesn't have that any problem. She's there to, like, make sense of white mass. Belinda serves as such an interesting ruler to measure the other characters against.

[Tanya Moseley]

You auditioned for snl. You ended up being a writer. Tell me a little bit about that audition and that time period. Cause this is, if I'm correct, this is like the time period when they were looking for a black woman.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Yeah, yeah. They had their mission pretty clear. You know, they were doing these special, secret showcases with black ladies because, you know, very famously, Kenan and Jay Pharoah didn't want to wear drag anymore. And I got a place on the showcase, and, yeah, just shot my shot. And, you know, what was your audition?

[Maureen Corrigan]

Do you remember?

[Natasha Rothwell]

I had a lot of different things that I auditioned with. I had a drunk Maya Angelou impression I had.

[Tanya Moseley]

Why is that making me laugh? Just even thinking about it?

[Natasha Rothwell]

It's just fun. It's just fun. And then I did an impression of Kenan, which was just making looks with my eyes. There was no dialogue. And after that, I did get a call back, and that meant we auditioned at Studio 8H. So we went down to 30 Rock, and of those who made the second round of auditions, you would go into the famous Studio 8H and in the audience is Lorne Michaels. And then it's populated by, you know, past and present cast members, writers, executives, and it's famously a very, very cold room. And everyone tells you, no one's gonna laugh. It's gonna be really quiet. And, you know, I was auditioning alongside, you know, Sasheer and Leslie Jones and all of these major, major comedians, and I was terrified. I was absolutely terrified. But it was, again, one of those things where I was just like, just go hard or go home. And I did get laughs during mine, which gave me some feel goods. And it was the Kenan impression. Cause he was in. He was in the room, and he told me once I finally was in the writers room, he was like, you were killing me. Because I was just basically pulling face, which is just like, you know, something he's known for. And to do it in front of him. Got the room to laugh.

[Tanya Moseley]

Is there something you wrote that you are most proud of on the show?

[Natasha Rothwell]

Yes. I worked with Taraji P. Henson on her monologue, which I'm so excited.

[Tanya Moseley]

I actually have a clip of this. So Taraji P. Henson hosted the show in 2015, and at the time, she was starring in the Fox show Empire as Cookie Lions. And the name of the monologue is I made it. Let's listen to it a little bit.

[Natasha Rothwell]

This is so nice. Oh, my God.

[Doreen Ketchens]

Beagle. Saturday Night Live really means so much.

[Natasha Rothwell]

To me because it proves that after 20 years in show business, white people finally know who I am. Now, look, I've been around a while, but a lot of you are just.

[Doreen Ketchens]

Getting to know me as Cookie on Empire. Thank you.

[Natasha Rothwell]

No, no, no. Real talk.

[Doreen Ketchens]

This role changed my life. I mean, I spent so many years hustling in this business, and now, now I'm here. So I guess you could say I made it. Hallelujah. Don't worry about where you are. Be grateful that you've come this far. You may not always come in first. Just remember that. It could be worse. I could have been an extra on the Lion King. Could be wearing some giant toucan wings. Could be trying to make some bachelors holla. Could be twerking on a pole for a dollar. I could have been a hip hop video ho. Did it once or twice but not no more. None of that stuff matters now. Cause I made it. Oh yeah, she made it.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Used to tip five, but now it's 30%.

[Doreen Ketchens]

Oh yes, I made it Almost all my organs just to pay the rent.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Oh yes, I made it.

[Tanya Moseley]

Could have passed out. That was Taraji p. Henson in 2015 in her opening monologue on SNL written by my guest. I love that. Like, it's part monologue, it's part song. Did you write the song? Yeah.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Like, it's a team effort there for sure. So I have not heard that since. It's so.

[Tanya Moseley]

Oh, really?

[Natasha Rothwell]

I was like, oh, wow, I do remember. No, it was a team effort and the music was inspired. You know, I grew up in the church, and John P. Key, you know, has some really early 90s, late 80s jams that would be like you would be cooking. And so I just remember working with the music director, and I was like, we gotta hit these. It has to have that sauce.

[Tanya Moseley]

It's also so real, you know, like all the things that she listed. It goes on to say, like, all these other things that. Oh, these things you take for granted. That show that I made it, she made it.

[Natasha Rothwell]

And I felt like she was singing for me for sure. Cause there I was like writing for this iconic show that I just, I had no, truly no aspirations to be on because I didn't see myself on the show. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't see someone on the show.

[Tanya Moseley]

So it was never a dream of yours even not seeing yourself?

[Natasha Rothwell]

No. I mean, Ellen Cleghorne, who was in my show how to Die Alone, I just remember her in early sketches and there was this whole period of time where it was just black men in drag and I didn't see myself as being on screen there. And I didn't think it would be an option. So I was just like, well, I know I'm gonna make it, but I don't know if it's gonna be by way of snl. And so when I was there, you know, working on the sketch and it was just, yeah, it was for both of us. I was just like, well, this is both of us are here and we didn't think we would be. So it was pretty cool.

[Tanya Moseley]

Natasha Rothwell, this was such a pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank you.

[Natasha Rothwell]

I enjoyed talking with you.

[Tanya Moseley]

Natasha Rothwell is an award winning actor, writer and series creator. She plays Belinda in the current season of HBO's the White Lotus. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly CV Nesper with Terry Gross. I'm Tonya Moseley.

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[Ron Rutson]

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