Best Of: Judd Apatow / Misty Copeland

Summary

Fresh Air – Best Of: Judd Apatow / Misty Copeland

Episode Date: November 8, 2025
Host(s): Tonya Mosley, Terry Gross (interviewer)
Guests: Judd Apatow, Misty Copeland
Special Review: Ken Tucker on Patti Smith’s Horses

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Overview

This “Best Of” Fresh Air episode features in-depth, candid conversations with comedy powerhouse Judd Apatow and trailblazing ballerina Misty Copeland. Both guests discuss memoirs rooted in their artistic journeys and personal archives, revealing the obsessions, challenges, and breakthroughs that have shaped their lives and the arts at large. The episode also marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith’s landmark album Horses, with critic Ken Tucker offering cultural and musical context.

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Part I: Judd Apatow – The Art of Obsession and Comedy

Segment Start: 02:35

Apatow’s Lifelong “Organized Horde”

• Judd Apatow’s new book (Comedy: A Lifelong Obsession in Stories and Pictures) compiles decades of memorabilia—letters, scripts, notes, and photos—collected from age 10.
• He reflects on how saving artifacts is a way of “working something out” about life’s big transitions—from high school to marriage, from parenthood to mortality. (06:02)
• On being a collector:

  "It's a well maintained horde." (05:02, Judd Apatow)

Childhood Fan and Early Ambition

• As a child, Apatow obsessed over autographs, collecting Billie Jean King’s signature 13 times in one tennis tournament.
• He describes his motivation as wanting to “penetrate that bubble” between idol and fan—wondering if the comedic world could become “real enough to enter at some point.” (07:12)
• Family connections, like comedian Todi Fields and record producer grandfather Bobby Shad, inspired Apatow to feel that “being special” was possible and energized his creative ambition.

  “She was so funny… She’s getting standing ovations and people love her. It must have planted a seed…that would be a cool thing to be able to do.” (07:43, Judd Apatow)

Hilarious Beginnings: The Steve Martin Letter

• As a 12-year-old, Apatow was so offended by Steve Martin not signing an autograph at home that he wrote a "threatening" letter, saying he’d give out Martin’s address if he didn’t apologize.
• Six months later, Martin sent a signed book, a gesture that empowered young Apatow to pursue comedy relentlessly.

  “The person I think is the funniest person in the world thought it was worth his time to do that... It probably gave me a lot of the confidence that I had to be insane to go interview 50 comedians from my high school radio station and work as a dishwasher in a comedy club.” (09:24, Judd Apatow)

Building a Career from Persistence

• Apatow wrote dozens of letters to comedians and celebrities, learning the value of persistence:

  “If you wrote a letter to someone who was on television, a lot of them would send you a signed autograph... I kept writing Paul Lynde to see how many times would he keep sending me the photo. So I have three Paul Lynde autographs.” (11:54, Judd Apatow)

• He describes creating his own “Club Comedy” show on his high school radio station and “tricking” comedians into interviews by not mentioning it was a student project. (20:49)
• Insights from interviews with legends like Jerry Seinfeld, John Candy, Harold Ramis, and Howard Stern taught him the reality of “bombing” and the years it takes to find your voice.

  “So when I bombed, I didn’t feel like I should quit the business. I thought, ‘This is part of it. I’m in it now.’” (22:14, Judd Apatow)

Family Dynamics and Emotional Roots

• Apatow opens up about his parents’ “nasty” divorce and the emotional confusion of growing up in a household where communication was indirect. His father’s idea of support was leaving a “self-help” book on the coffee table. (14:53)

  “[He said], ‘Yeah, I left that book out for you.’ And I went, what? He’s like, yeah, I left it on the coffee table. I said, you left the book? That’s how you communicated with me?… That was the seventies in a nutshell in terms of communication.” (14:53, Judd Apatow)

• Despite turmoil, both parents encouraged his comedic pursuits, fueling his “confidence.”

Creative Legacy and Inspiration

• Grandfather Bobby Shad was a pioneering producer, inspiring Apatow’s sense that “you have to create your own path.” (17:49)
• Apatow’s obsession with comedy parallels his grandfather’s music passion, linking the improvisational spirit across arts.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• "There's seven storage spaces around town and in my office...I needed to prove there was a reason to be a pack rat." (04:43, Judd Apatow)
• Steve Martin's response:

  “How I remember it: I knocked on Judd’s door.” (11:29, Steve Martin—via Apatow)

• On finding his professional voice:

  “A lot of people said, oh, it takes like seven years to find your voice as a comedian. Well, to hear that as a 16-year-old is good because… it’s like becoming a doctor.” (22:14, Judd Apatow)

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[Musical Interlude/Review] Ken Tucker on Patti Smith’s Horses

Segment Start: 24:42

Patti Smith's Artistic Genesis and Horses Impact

• Tucker contextualizes Smith’s 1975 debut as “like nothing else before or since.”
• Smith’s blend of poetry and punk inflected with Motown love (“The Hunter Gets Captured by the Game”) marked her as a unique, discipline-driven artist.
• The new anniversary edition includes unreleased material like the song “Snowball.”

  "Right from the start, she knew how she wanted to sound and reportedly fought with her producer...to achieve the sounds she heard in her head." (29:59, Ken Tucker)

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Part II: Misty Copeland – Redefining Ballet

Segment Start: 33:07

Historic Farewell, Enduring Influence

• Misty Copeland reflects on her farewell performance as ABT principal at Lincoln Center—her first return to the stage in five years, done against the backdrop of a serious hip injury.
• Despite pain, she describes the “calm and low” feeling after it’s over:

  "I'm trying to let myself enjoy this kind of recovery process before I start to feel normal again." (35:54, Misty Copeland)

The Pain and the Process

• Copeland explains how a difficult childhood, marked by insecurity and instability, prepared her to endure physical pain in ballet.

  "My relationship with pain? Yeah, it started very early...coming into the dance world and experiencing...just the pain of what it takes to train in ballet and be an athlete—the mental strength—all of that, I think was very innate." (37:56)

• On comparing childbirth to ballet:

  "I still don't think that anything compares to Swan Lake, really." (40:07)
  "When I gave birth to my son, I looked at my husband, I said, 'I want to do that again.' He was like, 'You're crazy.'" (41:16)

The Struggle for Representation

• Early on, Copeland painted her own pointe shoes to match her skin—an act both practical and symbolic:

  "It's the first thing that a young dancer receives...that's just right there saying, for a Black or brown dancer, this isn't for you. You don't belong." (41:44)

• She credits mentor Debbie Allen for introducing her to the concept of ballet attire as identity.

Artistry and Influence Beyond the Stage

• Copeland discusses her foundation’s mission to broaden ballet’s access and redefine its standards of beauty.
• She shares the story of her creative partnership with Prince, who for years sought her out to collaborate and whose mentorship transformed her confidence and artistry:

  "He was my biggest supporter. He showed me what it was to be one of a kind, to be unique, and to use that as a power." (43:53) “He…really included me in the whole preparation [for his tour]...I would be standing on the conference table using that as my piano. And we’d be working through the choreography until, like, two in the morning.” (45:34)

• On being featured in Prince's “Crimson and Clover” video:

  “He just sat right next to the camera guy filming it…He just was like, ‘I just wanted you to be in it. Like I envisioned you in this, and that was that.’” (48:07) “I think it changed my life in so many incredible ways. And so it was like, you know, meant to be.” (49:22)

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Key Themes and Takeaways

Judd Apatow:

• Obsession—the “organized horde”—can be a wellspring of creativity.
• Direct contact with idols can be formative, humanizing legendary figures.
• Emotional wounds and early family experiences often fuel artistic drive and serve as material.
• Persistence, failure, and a willingness to learn from rejection are critical for creative resilience.

Misty Copeland:

• Artistic greatness can emerge from unlikely and marginalized backgrounds.
• Physical and emotional pain are inherent to ballet, but past struggles can become tools for endurance.
• Changing what “belongs” in ballet—whether in costume or casting—carries profound cultural impact.
• Mentors (Debbie Allen, Prince) and community matter powerfully in career and self-perception.

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps & Attribution)

• “It's a well maintained horde.” — Judd Apatow (05:02)
• “You’re the funniest man in the world, but you treat your fans like garbage. You wouldn’t live in that house if I didn’t go to all your movies and buy all your albums.” — Judd Apatow (as a child, recalling his letter to Steve Martin) (09:26)
• “This is part of it. I’m in it now.” — Judd Apatow on failing and resilience (22:14)
• “My relationship with pain? Yeah, it started very early…coming into the dance world…the pain of what it takes to train in ballet and be an athlete…” — Misty Copeland (37:56)
• “I still don’t think that anything compares to Swan Lake, really.” — Misty Copeland (40:07)
• “He showed me what it was to be one of a kind, to be unique, and to use that as a power.” — Misty Copeland on Prince (43:53)
• “It's the first thing…that’s just right there saying, for a Black or brown dancer, this isn’t for you. You don’t belong.” — Misty Copeland on painting pointe shoes (41:44)

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Segment Timestamps

• Judd Apatow Interview: 02:35–23:23
• Ken Tucker on Patti Smith’s Horses: 24:24–31:54
• Misty Copeland Interview: 33:07–49:59

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This episode is an intimate, insightful exploration of two unique careers fueled by obsession, resilience, and a desire to remake the world—be it comedy or ballet—in one’s own image. With rare stories and wisdom, Judd Apatow and Misty Copeland illuminate the power of memory, identity, and believing in the possibility of personal transformation.

Transcript

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[Tanya Mosley]

In Philadelphia, this is FRESH AIR WEEKEND. I'm Tonya Moseley. Today, Judd Apatow. Before he was directing box office hits or launching the careers of comedy superstars, he was a kid writing fan letters to his heroes, collecting autographs and obsessively documenting everything. He's now opened his personal archives for a new book of photographs, letters, scripts and journals that shaped movies like the 40 Year Old Knocked up in Trainwreck. Also, we hear from Misty Copeland, who captivated audiences as the first Black woman to become a principal dancer with the American Ballet Theater. She also performed with Princess, who helped change her perception of herself.

[Misty Copeland]

He was my biggest supporter. He showed me what it was to be one of a kind, to be unique and to use that as a power.

[Tanya Mosley]

And ken Tucker celebrates 50 years of Patti Smith's album Horses. That's coming up on FRESH AIR Weekend.

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[Tanya Mosley]

This is FRESH AIR WEEKEND. I'm Tonya Moseley. If you've laughed at a comedy in the past 30 years, there's a good chance my guest had something to do with it. Judd apatow directed the 40 year old virgin, knocked up and Train Wrecked. He produced Superbad, Bridesmaids and Anchorman. And he executive produced the cult classic Freaks and Geeks, which launched the careers of Seth Rogen and Jason Segel. He's written for comedy legends like Garry Shandling and Roseanne Barr. And he mentored a young Lena Dunham, executive producing all six seasons of Girls. But here's the thing about Judd Apatow. He's also a collector since he was 10 years old. Autographs from his idols sealed in plastic, letters he wrote as a teen to and from his favorite comedians. Photographs from every movie and TV set, and scripts covered in notes and journals documenting every high and devastating low. And now, at 57, he's letting us get a glimpse of his collection, which he's compiled in a new book called Comedy A Lifelong Obsession and stories and pictures. It's unlike any Hollywood memoir I've ever read. It's part scrapbook, part confessional, part love letter to the art form of movie making and a glimpse into the psyche of a man who's been making people laugh for more than three decades.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Judd Apatow, welcome back to FRESH air. You've been here four times.

[Judd Apatow]

Happy to be here. I feel like I'm Norman Mailer.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

I know.

[Judd Apatow]

Putting those numbers on the board.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Yes. Okay. This memoir, it's unlike any memoir I've ever seen. As I said, almost 600 pages. And you write in the introduction that this isn't even everything that you've collected.

[Judd Apatow]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

What made you wanna put all of this stuff in a book?

[Judd Apatow]

I don't know. I was always a fan of these books, like the Marx Brothers scrapbook and there was a Saturday Night Live scrapbook that came out in the 70s where they would have pictures and scripts and little notes. And I just thought, oh, I think I have enough stuff to do that. My family's always yelling at me to throw out all my hoard from my hoarding. Like, why do we have all this stuff?

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Where do you keep it?

[Judd Apatow]

There's seven storage spaces around town and in my office and they're like, why do you save all this stuff? So I think I needed to prove that there was a reason to be a pack rat.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Wait, you have seven storage units at one time? Was it all in your house, though?

[Judd Apatow]

Well, there was a lot in the house. We have a new house now and none of it is in the new house. But also, it's not like normal hoarding. It's not like there's a big mat with, like, you know, catcher's mitts and kitty litter and magazines from the 70s. It's you know, it's all. It's a well maintained horde.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Organized.

[Judd Apatow]

Yes, it's an organized horde, as organized as it can be.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Did any revelations come to you going through some of that stuff, like things.

[Tanya Mosley]

That in the moment you hadn't thought.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

About, but you're looking through these old scripts or these old bits of paper that have notes from freaks and geeks, for instance, you know.

[Judd Apatow]

Well, all of it, I think, is working something out. So if I look at my career, I think, well, I did something about having a baby. I did something about going to high school, something about going to college, something about your first job, something about getting married, you know, trying to make relationships work over the long haul, getting sick, your mortality, so you could feel like, oh, I'm just thinking through, you know, my point of view about the big things that happen to all of us.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Yeah, I'm stuck on this word obsession because there's a story in the book where you collected Billie Jean King's autograph 13 times.

[Judd Apatow]

Yes, I went to a tennis tournament at Hilton Head island and we would go every year and I was 10 years old and all the tennis players were hanging around. This must have been like 1978, 77, something like that. And there would be Tracy Austin and there's Pam Shriver, and there's Billie Jean King and Martina Navratilova and Dr. Renee Richards. And I would just run around on a bike. They'd have a match. I would sometimes watch the match and wait for them to come out and then I'd get their autograph. And then the next day I would just do it again. And if it was the same people, I would just get all their autographs again. And I remember Billie Jean King saying to me, I think you have my autograph already.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

I know. After a certain point, did you start to have conversations with them? They're like, this kid is, you know.

[Judd Apatow]

A little, A little bit. But it was just so fun. I mean, it was just, it was like a. A weird hobby to go, can I get to Ivan Gulagon today?

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

I mean, it's a weird hobby, but it also. Why do you think you were doing it?

[Judd Apatow]

I think on some level, especially like with trying to meet comedians, I was trying to figure out, is there a way to penetrate that bubble? Like, can that become real? You know, you see them on TV and people are so funny, or they're great actors or actresses, but can I meet them? And if I can meet them, then maybe it's a real enough world for me to enter at some point.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

When did that come to mind for you?

[Tanya Mosley]

Not necessarily that you could do it.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

And you could enter it, but that, like, that spark of, oh, these people are interesting. I'm kind of fascinated by them.

[Judd Apatow]

Well, my grandmother was friends with this comedian named Todi Fields, and she was in that world of Joan Rivers, type of self deprecating female comedian. And she was so funny. And my grandparents talked about her like she was the coolest person in the world. And I knew her since I was born. And occasionally we would go see her. And I think on some level I saw her and thought, wow, she's a different kind of person. And she's getting standing ovations and people love her. It must have planted a seed at a time that I don't even remember. Like, that would be a cool thing to be able to do, seeing the.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Reaction to her action. Yeah, yeah, that was a thing.

[Judd Apatow]

And someone who could talk about what was weird about themselves and how they saw the world and be rewarded for it to be embraced for discussing your imperfections.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Okay, you have to tell this story of you threatening Steve Martin over an autograph.

[Judd Apatow]

Well, you know, I was a little kid and I used to always ask my grandmother to drive by his house because we knew which house he lived in. And I couldn't believe he lived there. This is in 1980, so it's 45 years ago. And, you know, I'm 12 years old. And one day he was outside and I asked him for his autograph. And like a normal human being would, he said, I don't sign autographs at my house. Like, for me, if someone knocked on my door, I mean, there's a chance that I'd have a drone police officer get involved. You know, there would definitely be a different reaction than Steve Martin had, which was, I'm sorry, I don't sign it at my house. And so I wrote him a funny letter asking for an apology.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

It was more than a funny letter.

[Judd Apatow]

I basically said, you know, you're the funniest man in the world, but you treat your fans like garbage. And you wouldn't live in that house if I didn't go to all your movies and buy all your albums. And so if you don't send me an apology, I'm gonna send your address to Homes of the Stars and you'll have tour buses passing by 24 hours a day. And then, like six months later, in the mail, I got a Book of Cruel Shoes, this amazing short story collection he had written. And in it he wrote to Judd, I'm sorry I didn't realize I was speaking to the Judd Apatow. And I was 12 years old, and I thought, oh, I must have made him laugh. And then now he's trying to make me laugh. And I look back on it now, like, it was very, very impactful on my psyche that he sent that to me, you know, almost an invitation. And I'm sure he just is funny and probably did that to tons of people because he's a great. But to me, it was like the person I think is the funniest person in the world thought it was worth his time to do that. And so it probably gave me a lot of the confidence that I had to be insane to go interview 50 comedians from my high school radio station and work as a dishwasher in a comedy club. It only set the fire more for me to try hard to figure out how to get into it.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

I think of you as a 12 year old to kind of threaten him to say, like, I'm gonna give your address out to everybody.

[Judd Apatow]

I think that was just my Long island rat attitude, that part of it. You know, people ask about it sometimes, and I think I was just so obnoxious. I just was like a. I didn't quite know where humor was. Being from Long island, there was so much insult humor, and we all gave each other such a hard time. And so in a real annoying Long island boy, I thought that was funny.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Was it like that in your home where you guys would be with each other?

[Judd Apatow]

Yes, absolutely. And with my friends, I mean, it was certainly a world of insults with love.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Yeah. Did you ever get to talk to Steve Martin about that?

[Judd Apatow]

I did once. We were in a meeting together and someone asked me to tell the story. Then afterwards, they said, steve, is that how you remember it? And he said, how I remember it. I knocked on Judd's door.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Okay, so it started with these autographs, and then it extended to letters. Like, you had a whole process. This was almost like an assembly line where you'd write letters to people.

[Judd Apatow]

Yes. I realized at some point that if you wrote a letter to someone who was on television, a lot of them would send you a signed autograph. I think I probably had a friend who got an autograph back in the mail. I remember one of my friends got an autograph from Bob Hope. I think it was my friend Josh Rosenthal showed me as Bob Hope. And I'm like, I'm going to write to Bob Hope. And then I did get an autograph from Bob Hope. And then I did, you know, I wrote a letter to Paul Lynde. And I got an autograph back. So I wrote Paul Lind again. He sent me another one. I kept writing Paul Lind to see how many times would he keep sending me the photo. So I have three Paul Lynde autographs. And I would just sit in my room at night with this Homes of the Stars book. And on the back page, it had the address of every studio.

[Tanya Mosley]

Wait, there was a real there was.

[Judd Apatow]

A real there was a book that had so you could go see where Lucille Bill Ball lived or and probably half of it was inaccurate. And it was their addresses from a decade before. But the back of it was the addresses of all the movie studios and TV networks. And so I would write Carol Burnett and the Saturday Night Live people. I got an autograph from Andy Kaufman and he signed it on both sides. That was what was so unique. It said, you know, to Judd, thank you very much, Andy Kaufman. But then the other side, he wrote a letter that kind of said the same thing. It just said, dear Judd, thank you for writing that letter. You know, Andy Kaufman. So even that was in Andy Kaufman mode.

[Tanya Mosley]

We're listening to my conversation with filmmaker Judd Apatow. He has a new visual memoir called Comedy A Lifelong Obsession in Stories and Pictures. We'll continue our conversation after a short break tonight. I'm Tonya Moseley, and this is FRESH AIR weekend.

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[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

You mentioned like things weren't so great when you were a kid.

[Judd Apatow]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

There's also a pretty you describe it as a nasty divorce with your parents.

[Judd Apatow]

Yeah, well, It's a very 1970s, early 80s thing. I mean, now everybody Consciously uncouples. And people understand the effect it has on your kids when you're in conflict. But back then, no one knew. And it was like a bare knuckle brawl. And so things didn't get resolved. And no one knew to check in on their kids to see how it was affecting them. No one said to me, how are you feeling? And so as a result, I internalized everything. And I just thought, oh, I need to take care of myself. And, you know, my parents, you know, you know, are great. My dad, like, once. My dad, you know, I said to him like a few years ago, like, you never talked to me about any of it. And he said, yeah, I did. And I said, no, you didn't. You never, like, said, how are you doing? In fact, the only thing that really helped me was like, there was a book in the house called Growing Up Divorced. And I looked at a couple of pages of it once, and it, like, explained some of the dynamics of what this conflict was about in a way I could understand. And my dad goes, yeah, I left that book out for you. And I went, what? He's like, yeah, I left it on the coffee table. I said, you left the book? That's how you communicated with me. And I said, what are you talking about? He said, it worked. And I went, but you never asked me if I read it. You didn't know I read it. And so that was the seventies in a nutshell in terms of communication that even very nice people with the best of intentions, they didn't know from their families how to tune into each other. And so as a little kid, it just made me confused most of all. And I think part of that led to being fascinated by people like George Carlin or Mel Brooks, who broke down society and broke down how families work and religion works and poked holes in things and challenged things. I think that was part of the obsession.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Did you ever talk to your parents about your dreams? What did they think about your obsessions?

[Judd Apatow]

They were so helpful and so supportive, and they were the reason why I was into it because my dad had a big interest in comedy. And so the house is filled with Lenny Bruce records and Bill Cosby records and Woody Allen records. And so they treasured that stuff. And they also thought comedians were the coolest people. And when I said I wanted to be a comedian, you know, they were. They're like, great. And so if I wanted to go to an open mic at a Comedy Club at 17, my dad would drive me to Chuckles and then come back two hours later. The Middle of the night to pick me up, like, they thought I would make it. And so I think somewhere in me, that gave me a lot of confidence, because when I talked to them about was like, there was no chance that I wouldn't make it.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Tell me a little bit about your granddad, Bobby Shad. You say he's basically one of the founders of the music industry as we know it.

[Judd Apatow]

He was a man from the Bronx, and after World War II, he would take the money from his job and hire jazz players to record songs. He would get them printed up himself and then go to the record stores and sell them by hand, and then at some point, got hired by labels to run their jazz and blues departments. So he was, you know, one of those people who figured out, how do you record jazz? Where do the microphones go? You know, like, he was, you know, a real innovator. And he did Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie, Dinah Washington music. Dinah Washington, Cannonball Adderley. He produced the first Janis Joplin album. And he was a real inspiration because he. He was a hustler. And it made me think, oh, you. You have to create your own path. And, you know, he just did it. And so it was always interesting to have someone in your family that there was this feeling about, like, oh, this is a really special person doing something really fun and important. And I think I became obsessed with comedy in the way he was obsessed with jazz. And I felt there was a connection because a lot of the comedians, like Lenny Bruce, started by performing in the jazz clubs. And so it all felt very much part of the same world.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Were you listening to jazz, too, when you were young, or was it around you in your house?

[Judd Apatow]

I would listen to it when I became a DJ for my high school radio station. And so I was very excited to be a jazz DJ when I was, you know, 16 years old. And then I would put on all these records, none of which I understood. You know, these, you know, Herbie Hancock experimental albums and Miles Davis records and Larry Coriel. And I so wanted to understand it so I could connect with my grandfather. But then he died when I was in high school, like, right at the age when I was just about ready to talk to him, to really ask him about all of it. This.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

This high school radio station, I mean, they don't make these like that anymore. There's nothing like that. I don't even know anything like that. What was it? Wkwz.

[Judd Apatow]

Those were the call letters in Syosset on Long island, and they're still There. And it was run by this teacher, Jack Demaci, who was very, very inspirational. He was our Dead Poets Society guy. And he basically pushed all of us to use the radio station to do whatever you wanted to do. If you were into sports, use it to talk to professional athletes and learn how to report and do play by play. If you're into music, you know, a lot of people would go to concerts and write reviews and interview artists. So my friend Josh Rosenthal, he would go interview people like Rem in the early 80s, and he said, oh, maybe you should try to interview comedians. And so I created a show called Club Comedy, and I got a tape recorder and I would go off and kind of trick comedians into doing interviews with me, which was the easier.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

How would you trick them?

[Judd Apatow]

I just wouldn't tell them it was a high school radio station. And I would just call a publicist and say, I work for WKWZ. Does Mr. Leno have any time while he's doing Rascals in New Jersey to speak with me? And. And I would show up with some huge tape recorder from, from, you know, the, the school, from the AV squad, and they would all tolerate me.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

This wasn't just like a few people, though. I mean, you interviewed, as you said, like 50, 50 folks. Did anyone ever turn you down? These are big names.

[Judd Apatow]

Well, there were people I couldn't get to. I couldn't get to Dangerfield. I couldn't figure out how to get to Andy Kaufman, who was down south wrestling at the time.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Oh, he was doing that.

[Judd Apatow]

So I would call the management office and they were like, we don't know where he is. We haven't talked to him in months. But people like Howard Stern and Sandra Bernhardt and John Candy talked to me and Harold Ramis, and they had good advice. I mean, I was asking them, how do you write a joke? How do you get on stage? How do you write a movie? And they would answer. And I look back now and go, what a head start I had. And a lot of it was just about work ethic, them just explaining what it takes to make it like it's going to take a long time and you have to find your voice. Things that I had never heard about before.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Was there ever a moment that you remember that they gave you advice or anything that you were thinking, yes, that has come back to you in real measure.

[Judd Apatow]

I mean, a lot of it did. And just hearing about their failures and knowing that it was hard made me realize that the only way to make it is to be able to withstand an enormous amount of rejection and to be willing to work hard to get better. And that that would not be a short process. So a lot of people said, oh, it takes like seven years to find your voice as a comedian. Well, to hear that as a 16 year old is good because you don't think, oh, it's supposed to happen now. It's like becoming a doctor. It's going to take a really long time. So I think it set my timer in a good way. And then they all talked about bombing. So when I bombed, I didn't feel like I should quit the business. I thought, oh, this is part of it. I'm in it now. And even Jerry Seinfeld told me about the first time he did stand up and he said he got so scared that he just said the names of his jokes, you know, just like school, your parents, because he panicked. But knowing that someone that I looked up to panicked like that, you know, gave me a lot of fortitude when I was bombing and when I was panicking, like, oh, this is part of it.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Judd Apatow, thank you so much for this conversation.

[Judd Apatow]

Thank you.

[Tanya Mosley]

Judd Apatow's new memoir is Comedy Nerd A lifelong obsession in stories and pictures, Patti Smith is now considered one of the wise women of rock and roll. An eloquent chronicler of her life in music in a series of acclaimed memoirs. But 50 years ago, she was a stage scrounging poet who wanted to be a rock star on her own very literary terms. And her debut album, Horses, announced a unique artist. A new anniversary edition of Horses, supplemented with previously unreleased music has just been issued. Rock critic Ken Tucker looks back at Patti Smith's beginnings.

[Patti Smith (performing or reading poetry)]

Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine. Milton Pad of thieves wild cord up my sleeve.

[Ken Tucker]

50 years on, Patti Smith's Horses still sounds like nothing else before or since its arrival in 1975. At the time, Smith had one foot in poetry, the other in rock and roll. Her spirit animals were the French surrealist Arthur Rimbaud and the Doors demigod Jim Morrison, both bad boys who died young. They inspired Patty as self mythologizing rebellious innovators. But they also served as warning lessons in the self control and discipline necessary to be a long lasting, prolific artist, which the 78 year old Smith has indeed become. Consider, however, what it was like to see for the first time the 28 year old Smith as she struck an androgynous pose in a white shirt and black tie cover photo by pal Robert Mapplethorpe. And consider what it must have Been like to first hear her tremulous croon on a song like Free Money.

[Patti Smith (performing or reading poetry)]

Every night before I go to sleep Find a ticket, win a lottery Scoop the pearls up from the sea Cash them in and buy you other things you need Every night before I rest my head See those dollar bills Girls squirrel around my bed I know they're stolen but I don't feel bad.

[Capital One/Progressive/Advertisement Announcer]

I.

[Patti Smith (performing or reading poetry)]

Dig that money Buy you things you never had oh, baby it would mean so much to me.

[Ken Tucker]

Music critics write about 1970s downtown Manhattan, Patti Smith performing at CBGB's and Max's Kansas City. But they ignore or aren't aware of the true crucible of her talent. Saint Marks in the Bowery, the Lower east side church and ground zero for the New York School of Poetry. This was the site of open readings where Patti could rub shoulders with key influences like Allen Ginsberg, John Giorno and Ann Waldman. Patti's print poetry was flatly derivative. But Smith's creative breakthrough came in collaboration with guitarist Lenny Kaye. Together they set her poems to music, with Lenny plugging in to accompany her words at readings. Very quickly, they were welding electric guitar to epic creations, as in this nine minutes plus opus, combining one of her poems with a cover of Chris Kenner's Land of a Thousand Dances. It's the song that gave the album its name.

[Patti Smith (performing or reading poetry)]

Boy was in the hallway drinking a glass of tea from the other end of the hallway a rhythm was generating Another boy was sliding up the hallway he merged perfectly with the hallway emerged perfectly the mirror in the hallway the boy looked at Johnny. Johnny wanted to run but the movie kept moving as planned. The boy took Johnny. He pressed him against a locker he drove it in, he drove it home.

[Capital One/Progressive/Advertisement Announcer]

He drove it deep.

[Patti Smith (performing or reading poetry)]

Then Johnny. The boy disappeared. Johnny fell his knees started crashing his head against a locker Started crashing his head against a locker Started laughing. It stirred me when suddenly Johnny gets a feeling he's being surrounded by horses. Horses, horses, horses Coming in in all directions. White shining silver studs with their nose in flames. He saw horses.

[Ken Tucker]

Hattie quickly went full on rock star, getting signed to Clive Davis, then New Arista Records alongside unlikely label mates such as Barry Manilow and Lou Rawls. At once a punk and an artiste, Smith had to grapple with the question of what it meant to be avant garde when you also love the Marvelettes.

[Patti Smith (performing or reading poetry)]

Every day things change and the world puts on a new face. Certain things rearrange and this old world seems like a new place.

[Ken Tucker]

That's the hunter gets captured by the game. A 60s hit for Motown's Marvelettes, written by Smokey Robinson and adored by Smith, who has always had juicy taste in oldies. The new 50th anniversary edition of Horses includes some alternate takes of songs from this album and others that would appear on subsequent releases. The one previously unreleased song is called Snowball.

[Patti Smith (performing or reading poetry)]

Oh, don't look behind me now I know what's coming Big white hairy ball of light Looking like a snowball.

[Capital One/Progressive/Advertisement Announcer]

When.

[Patti Smith (performing or reading poetry)]

It hits me I'm so amazed when it hits me I'm feeling crazed when it hits me I start to recall Memories flooding like a snowball rolling down the hill Snowball giving me a chill your face that I used to see Places that.

[Ken Tucker]

It'S pretty easy to hear why Snowball didn't make the horse's cut. It's a more conventional pop song, one that doesn't possess the grand delirium Smith was going for. Right from the start, she knew how she wanted to sound and reportedly fought with her producer, the Velvet Underground's John Cale, to achieve the sounds she heard in her head.

[Patti Smith (performing or reading poetry)]

Car stopped in a clearing Ribbon of life it was nearing I saw the boy break out of his skin My heart turned over and I cried and he cried Break it up. I don't understand Break it up.

[Ken Tucker]

These days, Patti Smith is still touring. She has a substack newsletter to chronicle her dreamiest thoughts and has a new memoir called Bread of Angels. The reissue of Horses fits right into her current context, sounding as urgent and immediate as it did a half century ago.

[Tanya Mosley]

Ken Tucker reviewed the 50th anniversary edition of Horses. Coming up, we hear from trailblazing ballerina Misty Copeland. I'm Tanya Mosley and this is FRESH AIR Weekend.

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[Tanya Mosley]

When Misty Copeland recently stepped onto the stage at Lincoln Center. Golden confetti rained down as she took her final bow with the American Ballet Theater. After a five year hiatus from performing, she returned to dance Juliet one last time and spin through Twyla Tharp's Sinatra Suite, closing a chapter that began 25 years ago. It was a farewell to the company where she made history a decade ago as the first black woman promoted to principal dancer in ABT's 85 year history. By ballet standards, Copeland came to the art form late. At 13 years old, it was the culmination of a journey that began not in a traditional ballet academy, but in a Boys and Girls club gym where a shy teenager first discovered what her body could say through movement. She rose through ABT's ranks to dance the roles that define classical ballet. Odette, Odile in Swan Lake, Juliet in Romeo and Juliet, and the title role in Firebird. But her impact extends far beyond technique and tradition. As a best selling author, film producer and founder of the Misty Copeland foundation, her goal is to build pathways for children who've never seen themselves reflected on the ballet stage. Now, as Copeland steps away from abt, she's turning her focus from performance to transformation, working to remake the art form that has for many centuries defined beauty through exclusion.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Misty Copeland, welcome back to FRESH air. And it's a pleasure to have you as you enter this new chapter in your life.

[Misty Copeland]

Thank you. I'm excited to be here.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

You never wanted a farewell performance, but you got one. I mean, there's a 15 minute standing ovation. How are you feeling now that it's over?

[Misty Copeland]

Yeah, it's so interesting to just kind of process all that I'm feeling. I actually feel very calm and low. I don't know if that makes any sense. And it's a reminder too, of kind of all the stages of recovery after performance that I feel like I forgot because it's been years. One of my favorite things about, you know, what I do, of course, is going on stage. But then there's something so special that happens after the fact, you know, of kind of coming down and letting your body really feel all that you put into it to get to that point and then just being grateful for it after. And I'm trying to let myself enjoy this kind of recovery process before I start to feel normal again.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

You know, Misty, you always seem so composed. And I got to watch the standing ovation at the end, the 15 minutes. But in that moment, you were also dealing with a hip injury.

[Misty Copeland]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

You were in a lot of pain.

[Misty Copeland]

Yeah. I Think it's just a part of what we are used to dealing with as performers and as dancers. And so it just kind of comes with the territory. You know, I was barely walking before, and somehow, you know, muster up the.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

You were barely walking before you got up on stage?

[Misty Copeland]

Yes. I mean, I found out in preparation for the performance that I have bone spurs in my left hip and a labral tear and loss of cartilage. And my doctors, you know, they were just like, I don't think this is a good idea for you to push for this performance. And I said, well, I've already agreed to it, and I'm definitely not going to wait any longer to get back on that stage, so what can we do to make it happen without further injuring my hip? So it's been a journey, and I've been really good about pacing myself and in good health. And then about a month before, a couple weeks out, I think my hip was just like, I can't tolerate anymore. And it just got worse the closer I got to the performance. And I actually was canceling rehearsal and pulling back on training up until the show because I was just, you know, trying to reserve my hip for performance.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Oh, Misty, every time I think about you, I think about the pain that you endure. I mean, all ballerinas to a certain extent, but yours, you've been so open about it. You've. You've documented it. When did you first begin to understand maybe your relationship to pain, to control it rather than to let it control you?

[Misty Copeland]

I think that's something I learned as a child. So many things in my childhood, I feel like, really, whether they're good or bad, they prepared me to be in this position. You know, I think about just always feeling uncomfortable, whether it was in the living circumstances that we were in, in my own skin, feeling so much shame around, like, you know, not often having a home or food on the table. And so I didn't keep friends. I just felt like I was never comfortable and was always kind of dealing with that, navigating, but keeping a happy face on the outside. I think anyone who knew me would say she was very quiet, but she was always very happy. And I had severe migraines growing up, and I remember I would have to leave school early, sometimes to the point of vomiting, and it was just like all this stress that I held inside, but somehow was able to still remain very pleasant on the outside. I think also just watching my mom navigate life and raising six children on her own and dealing with a lot. And so I feel like My relationship with pain? Yeah, it started very early. Like, I can remember, like seven years old, probably. And so coming into the dance world and experiencing just the. I mean, leaving injury out of it, just the pain of what it takes to train in ballet and be an athlete, the mental strength, all of that, I think was very innate, very natural for me.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

I need to know, you mentioned your son, your three year old son. How does childbirth compare to the kind of pain that you've experienced, that physical pain from injury?

[Misty Copeland]

You know, I couldn't have felt more prepared for labor, you know, by being a ballerina. I felt so completely emotionally, mentally, and physically prepared to give birth. And I still don't think that anything compares to Swan Lake, really.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Oh, my. Okay, so wait, Ms. Copeland is saying Swan Lake is harder on your body than childbirth?

[Misty Copeland]

Oh, my gosh. And I know everyone has very different experiences with childbirth, and there's no way to know what someone else feels. You know, I really enjoyed giving birth to my son. Like, yes, it was difficult. There were some complications that happened. I almost had a cesarean, but my doctor pushed for me not to do it. And I ended up giving birth without any pain medication in the end. But there was something that was so familiar to me that I just kind of locked into, and it was like, oh, I know, this feeling of preparation, of mental preparation and kind of preparing yourself for the pain and breathing through the pain and just staying as calm as possible, that it was so interesting because I hadn't been on stage, you know, in some years, and I felt like I was preparing for a performance. And when I gave birth to my son, I looked at my husband, I said, I want to do that again. He was like, you're crazy.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

You revealed to us some years ago that you've been painting your own pointe shoes for years to match your skin tone. And now folks can find various different skin tones with pointe shoes and with the tights and everything. But can you take us back to when you first started doing this? When you were doing it in those early days, how were you actually doing it? What were you even using to make them? Your color?

[Misty Copeland]

Yeah. I think the first time I ever did it, I must have been 14, performing with Debbie Allen in California, in Los Angeles. She's a mentor of mine in her version of the Nutcracker, which at the time she was calling the Chocolate Nutcracker. And that was the very first time that I was understanding what the ballet shoe even represents and what the tights mean. And it's an extension of yourself and your skin and it should be the same color. I was wearing brown tights then and painting my shoes, but I would continue to do that throughout the course of my career at abt, and I would just go to the drugstore and get whatever the cheapest liquid foundation and put it on my shoes. I mean, it's not meant to be danced, and it doesn't have the right, like, ingredients and consistency. It can be very slippery. But it's the first thing that a young dancer receives as their, you know, their leotard, their ballet slippers, and their tights. And that's just right there, saying, for a black or brown dancer, this isn't for you. You don't belong.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

I want to ask you just a few questions about your relationship with Prince because it was a pretty defining time period in your life. You guys worked together for about six years on and off.

[Misty Copeland]

Yeah, you know, he definitely came into my life. You know, I guess it was in that same time when I was. When I discovered Raven and was really Raven Wilkinson. Raven Wilkinson, yes. And was trying to understand how I can be my fullest and best self, how I can carry on these legacies of, you know, people who have come before me. And it was just pretty surprising to find out that Prince was a fan and that he had actually followed my career since I was very young and had a vision for me to be in a music video of his and spent a year trying to find me. I still don't really understand that story.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

I know.

[Tanya Mosley]

Where was he looking?

[Misty Copeland]

I don't know. I don't know. He says he reached out to ABT many times, and I was never given the message. Maybe they didn't believe it was him. I don't know. But when we finally did connect, it just. It just made sense, you know, for him to come into my life. At that time, he was my biggest supporter. He showed me what it was to be one of a kind, to be unique, to be proud, to stand in his uniqueness, and to use that as a power. And I think, whereas before, I felt, you know, like, isolated and alone, being the only. And he really saw it as the opposite. He's like, you have such an advantage. He's like, you're the only brown girl out there. Everyone's gonna look at you now. What are you gonna do? And then, you know, and then just exploring my artistry by working with him, I think made me grow in leaps and bounds as a dancer, you know, Though I wasn't doing classical works with him, he really challenged me to improvise. To be in the moment on the stages that he performed in. And it really broadened my audience and appeal and brought people to abt that and being able to show a whole new audience, maybe that had never seen ballet before. Me dancing on pointe on top of his piano was an incredible opportunity that.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

I mean, he definitely had a vision for you. And dancing on the piano, that seems like such a feat. I mean, stability in itself.

[Misty Copeland]

You know, it's interesting when we first started working together, so the first time that I toured with him, traveling through France and dancing on different stages, and he just let me improvise. He would say, like, I'm gonna, you know, these songs you'll dance to tonight. And, you know, I'll give you a cue to leave when it's time to go. And then as he was preparing for his welcome to America tour, he really included me in the whole preparation for it. I mean, I was there at Paisley park, and he was working around when I could perform with him, when I wasn't performing with American Ballet Theater. So we decided on one song, and it was the Beautiful Ones. And then he had a whole idea for choreography. At the time, we were preparing to do Alexei Ratmansky's he's a choreographer ABT's Nutcracker. It was a new version that he was putting together. And so we would be performing it at the Brooklyn Academy of Music at bam, but we were rehearsing it at NJPAC at the New Jersey Performing Arts Center. And so I would be with ABT all morning, all day, into the night, and rehearsing the Nutcracker until like, 10pm and then Prince would come in a limo and pick me up from. From New Jersey and take me to either one of the theaters that we were performing at, or he would take me back to his hotel and we would have, like, a conference room. And I would be standing on the conference table using that as my piano. And we'd be working through the choreography until, like, two in the morning. And I'm like, prince, I've got to work in the morning, so I gotta go. You get to sleep in all day like the rock star you are. But it was very much this beautiful collaboration. And then to be able to perform that song with him, you know, night after night, was so incredibly special. And I feel like I just grew so much as an artist and just felt like I was very open from the time that I spent working with him.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

You know, one of the things that I was curious about regarding Prince is that he had you in the video. Crimson and Clover, and it's a remake. What did you think about that choice? And also in that video, you're sort of taking on a modern dance. It's not ballet.

[Misty Copeland]

Yeah, I mean. I mean, I liked the song before Prince remade it, and so I was like, this is cool. This is. It also feels very different for him. And just listening to the lyrics, I thought it was, like, a really cool thing. Just because we didn't know each other. Like, we met on the set and.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

There was no setup beforehand.

[Misty Copeland]

I mean, we spoke on the phone, like, briefly. And then he asked me. He was like, are you interested? We could fly you out this weekend and shoot it. And so I did, but we met on the set. And so it was just like this kind of tension, like we don't know each other. And so I thought that the lyrics and the. I don't know, it just kind of all worked and made sense. And he just sat right next to the camera guy filming it. He sat on a. What do you call it? An apple box with his camera and was just taking pictures of me throughout the whole shoot.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

What did that feel like?

[Patti Smith (performing or reading poetry)]

That feels like.

[Misty Copeland]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, it was kind of strange, right? I mean, we would chat in between takes, but I was just improvising. I had pointe shoes on, and I was just kind of making things up. And he didn't really give me much direction. He just was like, I just wanted you to be in it. Like I envisioned you in this, and that was that. Yeah, I don't know. I thought the song made sense, especially for that time in our lives, like, coming together and not really knowing each other and getting to know each other. I thought it was cool.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

What meaning did you put to the song? What did it mean for you for that time period?

[Misty Copeland]

He had said to me, you know, many times that, you know, he actually filmed the whole video with another dancer, and he was not satisfied. And so that's when he started to look for me again. But there's, like, a line in the song that's like, I've been waiting to know her or something like that that I feel like just kind of sums up that time and that moment of just him really wanting me and his life and making that happen. And I think it changed my life in so many incredible ways. And so it was like, you know, meant to be.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Misty Copeland, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much.

[Misty Copeland]

Thank you so much.

[Tanya Mosley]

Misty Copeland was the first black woman to become a principal dancer in American Ballet Theater. She performed her Farewell with the company at a star studded gala at Lincoln center on October 22nd. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresher's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham with Terry Gross. I'm Tanya Mosley.

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