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- [00:00]
Commercial Announcer
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- [00:27]
Terry Gross
Let us surprise you from WHYY in Philadelphia, I'm Terry Gross with Fresh Air Weekend Today, Malala Yousafzai she was only 11 when she started to demand the right of girls to go to school after the Taliban invaded her town and banned girls education. She was 15 when she was shot by a Taliban gunman. Looking back now, does she think she understood the risk that she would become a Taliban target?
- [00:56]
Malala Yousafzai
I had pictured it many times that this could happen. I had pictured it at school. I had pictured it in my school bus. I had pictured it on the street. I knew that the Taliban could do anything.
- [01:07]
Terry Gross
Also, we hear from actor Oscar Isaac. He's currently starring in the Netflix series Beef and recently played Dr. Victor Frankenstein in Guillermo del Toro's Frankenstein. And Maureen Corrigan recommends three books for spring reading.
- [01:23]
Commercial Announcer
This message comes from Ritual. You want to know exactly what you're putting in your body. At Ritual, they have those same ultra high standards. Every ingredient they use is traceable, science backed and formulated by dietitians from their best selling multivitamins to their 3 in 1 gut support. Get 25% off@ritual.com podcast these statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. They this product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.
- [01:53]
This message comes from Thumbtack Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knowshomes so you don't have to don't know the difference between matte, paint, finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is. With thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro, you just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app.
- [02:17]
Tonya Mosley
Download Today every episode of NPR's It's Been a Minute podcast starts with a question about how culture shapes our lives.
- [02:26]
Oscar Isaac
Are we spending too much on other people's weddings?
- [02:29]
Malala Yousafzai
Is social media bad for your mental health? We're here for your right to be curious.
- [02:35]
Tonya Mosley
One big question at a time. Follow it's been a minute. Wherever you get your podcasts Terry this
- [02:43]
Terry Gross
is FRESH AIR weekend. I'm Terry Gross. As remarkable as it is that my guest Malala Yousafzai won the Nobel Peace Prize when she was 17, there are remarkable ways she's been living her life since then. Let's start with the famous part of her story. She was born in 1997 and grew up in a remote region of Pakistan's Swat Valley near the Afghanistan border. In 2008, after the Taliban invaded her town, terrorizing the people, they banned girls education. She publicly spoke out for her right and the right of all girls to go to school as payback. In 2012, when she was 15, she was shot in the head by a Taliban gunman. She was flown to a hospital in England, where she continues to live. Her recovery was miraculous. It's when I read her recent memoir, Finding My Way, that I learned how the bullet changed the course of her life, thrusting her into a new culture and changing her in ways that didn't quite fit her public image as an inspirational hero and top student and sometimes even challenged her own self image. When she was admitted to Oxford University, a dream come true, she wanted to live the life of a teenager and find time to make friends, have fun, have adventures, including jumping from her dorm roof to the campus bell tower. She defied some of her culture's traditions and her parents expectations, from how she dressed to who she married. At the same time, she was experiencing PTSD and panic attacks for the first time, recovering from her multiple surgeries and continuing to raise money for the foundation she co founded with her father to advocate and raise money for girls education and places where that is banned. All this took time from her college studies and she felt like a fraud, a symbol of female education who was barely passing some of her classes. Another thing I learned from her book and from hearing her speak is that she's very self aware, introspective and funny. I spoke with her in front of an audience at whyy, where she was given this year's Lifelong Learning Award. Malala, it's such an honor to have you here tonight. I'm so excited to have the opportunity to talk with you.
- [04:57]
Malala Yousafzai
It's so nice to be here. Thank you so much. Thank you for the honor. And good evening, everyone. It's always so nice to be in this beautiful, warm, welcoming city.
- [05:08]
Terry Gross
So your father, as I mentioned, founded a school. It was a school you went to. So he, he was passionate about education and passionate about it for girls. And when the Taliban came and took over your area, they had a deadline for when they were going to close down the schools.
- [05:24]
Malala Yousafzai
It was the 15th of January, 2009,
- [05:27]
Terry Gross
and you attended school until the last day, even though I think you were only allowed to go up to fourth grade. And you were in fifth grade.
- [05:35]
Malala Yousafzai
Yes. And we were, you know, we would wear just our home clothes. We could no longer wear our school uniform.
- [05:41]
Terry Gross
It would give you away.
- [05:42]
Malala Yousafzai
Yeah. We said, like, the Taliban should never know that girls are daring to go to a school. We would wear these long, hefty scarves and just wrap them around our body so we could hide our school bag, like any bag will sort of hide. So there's no proof of us daring to walk to a school. And we said that if they ever ask us what grade we were in, let's say they found out, we'll just tell them we are in fourth grade. They could never prove it. So we said, we're still little girls, but girls were risking their lives to be in a classroom.
- [06:13]
Terry Gross
Right. So during that period, I think this was, during this period, a journalist from the BBC asked for a volunteer from your school to keep a journal that the BBC could draw on or publish, I'm not sure which. And one girl volunteered. And then her father came the next day and said, I'm not allowing her to do this. It's too risky. She could get killed. And then your father says to you, malala, would you like to volunteer? How did you feel about that, him asking you to volunteer when you knew it was a great risk? I mean, it was an anonymous, pseudonymous journal. You wrote it under a pseudonym. But how did you feel knowing you were taking on this risk? And this was before you got shot by a Taliban?
- [07:02]
Malala Yousafzai
Yeah. So I was 11 years old, and when I heard that.
- [07:05]
Terry Gross
You're so young.
- [07:06]
Malala Yousafzai
Yes, yes.
- [07:08]
Terry Gross
How could you even comprehend the risk that you were taking?
- [07:10]
Malala Yousafzai
You know, my honest reaction to a question like this is that, like, I wish I was a child. I wish I knew nothing about these things. I wish, like, I didn't have to write a blog. I wish I didn't have to become an activist. But that was the lived reality of girls. At 11 years old. They're telling you that just because you are a girl, you cannot step into a classroom. You cannot have an education. And I know that, you know, like, when. When I look back, I'm like, yes, that was a crazy thing that I did. I put my life at risk. But at the time, what scared me more was a life without an education as a girl, it terrified me. And I, you know, like, think about women's struggle for equality, for justice everywhere around the world. You know, we are. We are fighting to protect ourselves against violence, against oppressions. Women are literally being murdered and killed. You know, that's how extreme it is. And I said, you know, education is that pathway, that hope that I can have, that I can have a better future. So the best thing I can do is actually speak out and see if there's some hope that things will change for us.
- [08:14]
Terry Gross
I think it's when you were living in the area where your parents grew up, which is very remote and very mountainous. I think it was then that you were on a school bus when you were shot.
- [08:28]
Malala Yousafzai
Yeah, it was in 2012 that they attempted to kill me.
- [08:35]
Terry Gross
And you weren't expecting that, right? You didn't think that you would be a target?
- [08:40]
Malala Yousafzai
It wasn't that. I never pictured it. I had pictured it many times that this could happen. I had pictured it at school. I had pictured it in my school bus. I had pictured it on the street where I used to walk to school. I knew that the Taliban could do anything. And I used to wonder, like, could I save myself? Like, you know, how could I make them understand that I'm actually not a threat? I actually want education for myself, for girls, even for their children. But when the. You know, when the day arrived, it was the 9th of October, 2012. It was a normal school day for me. And when we were driving back to our home in our school bus, that's when everything pauses in my memory. I don't remember anything. I have different visuals, different flashbacks, but I'm never sure what I really saw and what I'm sort of picturing because of what I heard. But my best friends tell me that story because they were on the school bus with me. And my very best friend Muneeba, she was sitting on my right. And she tells me this story that two gunmen stopped the school bus. And this one guy, he walks to the. To the back of the bus and asks, who is Malala? And I was not covering my face. And he looked at me, and then he pointed a gun at my head and pulled the trigger. And I asked my friend, I said, like, did I scream? Did I say anything? How was I reacting in that moment? And she said, you just held my hand really tight. You were silent. You just. You were looking at that person, but you were not saying anything. And you just held my hand really tight that I could feel the pain for days. And then you fell into my lap. So that's. You know, they also went through a lot of trauma because, you know, I was recovering from the Taliban bullet injury. It had caused facial paralysis, hearing loss and swelling in my head as well. So I had to replace the skull piece with the titanium plate. I had to go through a lot of recovery things and surgeries, many surgeries, many surgeries. But my friends actually saw what happened.
- [10:58]
Terry Gross
Your friend Moniba, who was the one sitting next to you on the bus, she later told you she was covered in blood after you got shot. And she really thought that she must have gotten shot too, because there was so much blood on her. And she was traumatized. She had nightmares all the time.
- [11:14]
Malala Yousafzai
And I could never compare the two. Like, I was carrying the pain and they were carrying the memories. So I always talk to my friends, you know, I ask her for the same story again and again, and I'm like, tell me what happened that day. And every time I hear it, I'm like, I just, I can't believe we all saw it that day. So I also really admired their resilience.
- [11:34]
Terry Gross
We're listening to the interview I recorded with Malala Yousafzai at an event where she received whyy's Lifelong Learning Award. Her recent memoir is called Finding My Way. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. I'm Terry Gross and this is FRESH AIR weekend.
- [11:52]
Commercial Announcer
This message comes from Ritual. You want to know exactly what you're putting in your body. At Ritual, they have those same ultra high standards. Every ingredient they use is traceable, science backed and formulated by dietitians from their best selling multivitamins to their 3 in 1 gut support. Get 25% off@ritual.com podcast. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.
- [12:21]
Support for NPR and the following message come from Edward Jones. What does it mean to live a rich life? It means brave first leaps, tearful goodbyes and everything in between. With over 100 years of experience navigating the ups and downs of the market and of life, your Edward Jones financial advisor will be there to help you move ahead with confidence. Because with all you've done to find your rich, they'll do all they can to help you keep enjoying it. EDWARD Jones, member, SIPC so let's get to the flashback.
- [12:57]
Terry Gross
So one of the things you did in college is you took some hits from a bomb at the encouragement of your friends and then you had this really bad flashback to something you didn't even remember in the first place, which was getting shot by the Taliban. Gunman. Would it be triggering if I asked you to describe it?
- [13:19]
Malala Yousafzai
No, not at all. And I wanted to share this story because I wish somebody had told me that this is something that could have
- [13:26]
Terry Gross
happened, that post traumatic stress.
- [13:28]
Malala Yousafzai
Yes, that this was a thing. And it happened to me seven years after the attack. That's something that I could not fathom. I said I was okay this whole time. Why is it happening to me now? So when I tried that bong, time slowed down, and I felt like I was stuck. I couldn't move. And I was reliving the Taliban attack once again. I thought it was all happening, and I couldn't understand if I was alive or not. And it was a really terrible experience. And I started getting panic attacks after that. And that's when I realized that I actually need help. So I started sharing with my friends as well that I was not feeling okay. I was not enjoying the social events or anything. And then it still took me a few months. And then a friend of mine suggested that I start seeing a therapist. And that's when I started getting therapy. I had never received therapy before.
- [14:24]
Terry Gross
Well, you say that even in the Pashtu language, there's no word for anxiety. I can't imagine that. So it must have been really terrifying. And also, did it challenge your own identity? You'd always thought of yourself as like, I'm really brave. Everybody tells me I'm brave. I don't think. I don't remember the experience of being shot. I'm still not afraid. And suddenly you were afraid to go to sleep. You were afraid to dream. You were afraid of a lot of things. How did it challenge your sense of yourself?
- [15:03]
Malala Yousafzai
I did feel very disappointed with myself that I was no longer living up to the expectation of being brave and courageous. But I had to unlearn a lot this whole time that actually true bravery is when you keep fighting for what you believe in, even when you are scared. So it helped me think very differently.
- [15:23]
Terry Gross
Do you still have flashbacks and panic attacks?
- [15:27]
Malala Yousafzai
Yes. And I think I try to look after myself. And it has just helped me understand that if I want to do my work in the best way possible, I have to make sure that I look after my mental health and my physical health. I'm raising awareness about therapy as well, that, you know, we should get therapy and especially for, you know, women from communities, you know, where I come from, like the South Asian community, Muslim community, Pashtun community, encouraging it in those places as well. And in therapy sessions, like, of course, like, those things really help you. But Then I also thought, it's also about the physical health. I thought, like, if you are an activist, you're not allowed to get, you know, sleep, or you're not allowed to eat well or not allowed to look after yourself, because it's just all about work, work, and work. And then I realized I was actually not doing that job well because I was not in the best shape. So when I started looking after my physical health as well, I've started going to the gym now. I do weightlifting, and that's great. Running. Yeah. And when it's leg day, my husband and I go together. So leg day is my favorite day. And he's literally crying, but because, you know, I'm like, we have to lift heavier weights. So he doesn't like it, but I love it.
- [16:47]
Terry Gross
So you go to Oxford University, you're still recovering from surgeries. There's still more surgeries to come. You were schooled at first in your father's school in a fairly remote region of Pakistan. You didn't get the kind of education that most Oxford students get, and yet you were held to the same standard. And I understand why the leaders of the university would not want to make, like you, a special student with a different standard. And you probably wouldn't have wanted that for yourself either. However, it seems to me so unfair that you, who were nearly killed, who was still recovering from that psychologically, emotionally, physically, and who didn't have the same education as the other students, were held to the same standard in the same timetable, and you were falling behind. You were used to being really smart, and that was part of your identity, and you were like the girl activist standing up for education, and suddenly you were barely passing your classes, nearly failing. What do you think they maybe could have done to help you during that time or. Or to better understand what you were going through? It just strikes me as being very.
- [18:08]
Malala Yousafzai
I wish I had spoken to you back then so we could have written it to the university. At the time, I had a lot of work that I needed to do for Malala Fund's girls education advocacy. So I remember in just like, a
- [18:23]
Terry Gross
week or two, because let me just say, you had donated your. With your Nobel Prize money.
- [18:28]
Malala Yousafzai
Yes.
- [18:28]
Terry Gross
You and your father created a fund to support girls schools.
- [18:32]
Malala Yousafzai
Yes.
- [18:33]
Terry Gross
So you had to keep vigilant about that in addition to all the other stuff that I mentioned.
- [18:38]
Malala Yousafzai
Yeah. So, like, I remember that week and half in college when one day I was in Lebanon with Tim Cook, where they announced grants to support Malala funds, work which was very important because with those grants, we could then help girls in Lebanon and Pakistan and Afghanistan and Nigeria. And then in a few days, I was at Davos and I had shared the stage with Justin Trudeau. And from those conversations, we helped secure more than $2 billion for girls education. It was a big commitment for financing for girls education. And then a week later, it was another event where I was sharing my story and all of that. So to me, it felt like all of these things were important and I thought I could manage it. But when my teacher saw my performance, she was very concerned. She said, you are behind on your essays, you're not attending the lectures, and you will literally fail if you keep doing it like this. So she wrote a letter to everybody in my circle and said, malala will not be allowed to travel during college time. It's like, you have to be in college. Just because we don't take your attendance doesn't mean you can travel to Lebanon or all of these places. I also realized that there was a whole academic support system at college. I was hesitant to consider it because I thought I might be the imposter here. I might be the only one who's getting it. But when I reached out, they told me that students have challenges because of different reasons. And it's completely okay to ask for help because this college is built to help you learn.
- [20:17]
Terry Gross
So what do they do to help?
- [20:18]
Malala Yousafzai
Just help me understand how to better prepare for my essays, how to divide my time, how to do the reading in a way that's more efficient, plan the essay before jumping into the reading. All of these small tips that really helped me. And then I. I improved. I improved in my studies. I did not become like an excellent top students right away. I. I didn't really become that student, but I was doing okay. And I was just happy with doing okay. Where I was having good time with my friends, I was socializing, and I was also managing my studies as well. I was in the end, very happy with that.
- [20:53]
Terry Gross
Did you accept the fact that you weren't like in the upper tier of the ultra smart academic students?
- [21:01]
Malala Yousafzai
Honestly, I wasn't being hard on myself. Even though I wished in an ideal world, you want all of it. You want to be that unicorn who's just good at everything, is getting the top grades and having a social life and getting good sleep and all of that. But in Oxford, they tell you you can't have it all. You have to really choose. And I thought if there's one thing I were to pick in these college years, that would be to Have a social life. I did not have a friends in high school. I had only made one friend, and that's because she fell out with her best friend. So I just filled in the gap because I was so new to the culture. Even though I could communicate in English, but it wasn't my first language. I was still speaking the textbook English. I was still familiarizing myself with the phrases and any of these trending words that they. And I, you know, I sort of felt like I was. I was not cool enough to make friends. I thought my story was very boring.
- [22:00]
Terry Gross
Boring.
- [22:00]
Malala Yousafzai
And I thought, a Nobel Prize can't get you friends. So, yeah. And I also, even at school, I ran for the head girl position because I was working really hard. I wanted to be part of every club, every society. So when I heard about the school head girl position, I ran for that, and I lost. And that, like, made me so upset because, you know, like, you want to be embraced and accepted by your college students and, you know, like, by your school friends. It means so much because I was still young. I was still very young, even though I received the Nobel Prize before I had even completed my high school. But in the end, I'm still 17. And you just want to be in the cool friends group at the same time.
- [22:46]
Terry Gross
You were 15 when you won the Nobel?
- [22:49]
Malala Yousafzai
No, no. Seventeen.
- [22:50]
Terry Gross
Seventeen, okay.
- [22:52]
Malala Yousafzai
Yeah. A bit. A bit too late.
- [22:54]
Terry Gross
Were you expecting a bit older, you
- [22:56]
Malala Yousafzai
know, bit older than 15?
- [22:58]
Terry Gross
Were you expecting that as a possibility?
- [23:00]
Malala Yousafzai
No.
- [23:01]
Terry Gross
Did you know that you were, like, among the people being considered?
- [23:05]
Malala Yousafzai
Of course, it was in the news. But I remember that day when the announcement was supposed to be made, and my father said that I should skip my school day because what if they announce? And I said, dad, like, everybody who thinks that I'm going to win, this is crazy. And I said, I am going to go to my school. And I was in my chemistry class, and my school's deputy head teacher walked in and she called me outside, and she usually calls you when you are in trouble. So I was praying for myself. And then she told me that I had won the Nobel Peace Prize. And it was like the most insane thing I could ever hear from a deaf. From a school teacher. And then I was told that you should go and do a press conference and go home. And I said, no. I went back to a physics class and I finished my school day, and I said, if you get a Nobel Peace Prize for education, you have to finish your school day.
- [24:19]
Terry Gross
Did that make you cool in school? Because you said you weren't Cool.
- [24:22]
Malala Yousafzai
Just for a day.
- [24:24]
Terry Gross
Seriously. Didn't know.
- [24:26]
Malala Yousafzai
Died down the next day. I was like, give me another award. A Grammy next or something. The Oscars. Who knows?
- [24:35]
Terry Gross
Malala, I just want to say I think you're really an inspiration for the work that you do, for the risks that you take, but also believing in living a full life that welcomes joy and love and fun. You know, being a full human being while participating in your activism.
- [24:56]
Malala Yousafzai
Thank you all for your support and it's truly an honor to be here and to share the stage with you as well. And I just want to say one thing to Philly. Go Birds. Thank you, thank you.
- [25:15]
Terry Gross
My interview with Malala Yousafzai was recorded on stage at WHYYY, where she received WHYY's Lifelong Learning Award. Malala's recent memoir is titled Finding My Way. Our book critic Maureen Corrigan recommends three quintessential spring reads, novels that are light, breezy and funny with an undercurrent of chilly reality.
- [25:45]
Maureen Corrigan
Sometimes girls just want to have fun, right? I've been in a springtime mood of wanting to dive into a cartoon colored ball pit of comic novels with spunky heroines, and I found some good ones. But what I also found is that much like the classic screwball comedies of yore, escapism in these playful novels links arms with edgy social commentary. Yesteryear, an intricately plotted debut novel by Carol Clare Burke, has been getting lots of attention, and deservedly so. The main character here is an online trad wife named Natalie Heller Mills. On camera, Natalie revels in activities like spending four hours making a loaf of sourdough bread and then adorning it with a nativity scene made out of herbal stick figures from her own garden. Naturally, a little of this goes a long way for those of us who share the attitude of the late Joan Rivers. Rivers famously quipped, I hate housework. You make the beds, you do the dishes, and six months later you have to start all over again. Amen. So imagine my glee when Natalie, who only plays at being a pioneer woman, wakes up one morning to the realization that she's been transported back to the year 1855. Welcome to the real pioneer life, where if you want milk for your morning gruel, you'd better hustle out to the barn and find a cow. If Burke had only stuck to this plot line, yesteryear would be a fun one note snark at retro lifestyle influencers, but instead it tells a more ambitious, suspenseful and, yes, ultimately melancholy story of its heroine's aspirations and capitulations to ideas of how women should live their lives. I thought Gary Steingart's brilliant 2024 essay in the Atlantic about his agonizing seven nights aboard the Icon of the Seas, the largest cruise ship in the world, had ruined me for all other tales of enforced frivolity on the ocean. But I was wrong. Emma Straub's latest novel, American Fantasy, starts off sharing Steingart's cynicism and ends up affirming the right of women, especially middle aged women, to party without self consciousness or apology. Our main character here is a 50 year old divorced woman named Annie who's been persuaded by her younger sister to join her on a four day themed cruise. The theme is on board, namely a gone soft round the middle boy band of the 90s named Boy Talk that both Annie and her sister loved. Almost every other passenger aboard is a woman of a certain age, otherwise diverse in race, politics, ability, income bracket and even sexual orientation. All were rabid Boy Talk fans. The crew's production manager, a gay woman named Sarah, reflects that these were the guys who had launched a million sexual awakenings, and even if they had awakened something other than heterosexuality, they had still been present, like distant guardian angels of puberty. Straub tells the story of the cruise through the eyes of Sarah and Annie and one of the band members, a thoughtful guy named Keith, who, like Annie, is at a crossroads. This is a novel that makes the radical move of honoring rather than ridiculing female fandom. Here's Straub's description of Annie's epiphany about her own fandom as she's standing in a packed crowd during a Boy Talk performance. The music was a direct vein to her own childhood, the least complicated part of her life. All around Annie, women were dancing and singing, and for a second she closed her eyes and thought. No one else will ever understand this. Except of course, everyone standing beside her, who all understood it perfectly. I've shared the premise of Laurie Frankel's forthcoming novel Enormous Wings with a few friends, based on how instantly they entered the book's title into their cell phones. The premise is all you need to know about this wild but all too timely story about female autonomy, or lack thereof. So here goes. Frankel's heroine, Pepper Mills, is 77 and a reluctant new resident of the Vista View Retirement community in Austin, Texas. Surprisingly, she meets a nice man there and has sex. And then, through a medical fluke that Frankel almost makes plausible, Pepper finds herself pregnant. Her doctors expect the pregnancy to end in miscarriage when it doesn't, Pepper seeks an abortion. But she lives in Texas, and she's now such a media sensation that it's almost impossible for her to leave the state. Complicated, gutsy and entertaining, Enormous Wings pokes fun at life's unpredictability and stokes anger at situations that aren't at all funny.
- [31:51]
Terry Gross
Marin Corrigan is a professor of literature at Georgetown University. She reviewed Yesteryear, American Fantasy, and Enormous Wings. Coming up, we hear from actor Oscar Isaac. He stars in season two of the Netflix series Beef and recently played Dr. Victor Frankenstein in Guillermo del Toro's Frankenstein.
- [32:11]
Commercial Announcer
This is FRESH AIR Weekend this message comes from Ritual. You want to know exactly what you're putting in your body. At Ritual, they have those same ultra high standards. Every ingredient they use is traceable, science backed and formulated by dietitians from their best selling multivitamins to their 3 in 1 gut support. Get 25% off@ritual.com podcast these statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. This message comes from NPR's sponsor, Shopify. No idea where to sell? Shopify puts you in control of every sales channel. It is the commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide. Whether you're a garage entrepreneur or IPO ready, Shopify is the only tool you need to start, run and grow your business without the struggle. Once you've reached your audience, Shopify has the Internet's best converting checkout to help you turn them from browsers to buyers. Go to Shopify.com NPR to take your business to the next level today.
- [33:12]
Terry Gross
Our co host Tonya Moseley has our next interview. Here's Tonya.
- [33:16]
Tonya Mosley
My guest today, award winning actor Oscar Isaac, was still deep inside one of the most consuming roles of his career, playing Victor Frankenstein when director Lee Seung Jin came calling for him to star in the second season of his Netflix series Beef. In Beef, Oscar plays Josh, the manager of an upscale Los Angeles country club. He's polished and charming, but underneath that smooth exterior, his life is falling apart because he's stealing from the club. And underneath the facade, his marriage is also falling apart. Oscar said at first he had a hard time connecting to this character, but it helped when an acting coach told him to try to bring the character of Victor Frankenstein into the role of how would Victor feel being trapped inside of Josh's small life? This is exactly what Oscar needed to step into the character. In this scene from the series, Josh and his wife Lindsay, played by Carey Mulligan are home after spending the day at the country club. They get into an argument which turns into a full blown fight with both of them saying the worst things a married couple could say to each other. It's intense.
- [34:28]
Terry Gross
Charity committee meeting.
- [34:30]
Oscar Isaac
I like doing that stuff. You like doing it.
- [34:32]
Terry Gross
I've just gotten really good at pretending.
- [34:34]
Oscar Isaac
You get privileged access to titans in every industry and you love it.
- [34:38]
Malala Yousafzai
Who are these titans?
- [34:39]
Oscar Isaac
We get to be friends with politicians and CEOs. We had dinner with Bono.
- [34:44]
Malala Yousafzai
That's a good thing. You think that they're your friends, but they're not your staff.
- [34:48]
Terry Gross
You're an employee.
- [34:49]
Malala Yousafzai
They pay you to be around.
- [34:51]
Oscar Isaac
Well, one of us has to get paid. Maybe if we had a little more income, I wouldn't have to do this job that you find so repulsive.
- [34:57]
Terry Gross
Well, I gave you my entire inheritance
- [34:59]
Malala Yousafzai
and we're still completely underwater.
- [35:00]
Oscar Isaac
If you bring up my mother right now, I will lose my I do not regret a dime we spent on her.
- [35:06]
Tonya Mosley
Oscar Isaac is a Golden Globe winner who has moved between indie films and global franchises from Shakespeare to Star Wars. His films and TV work include Inside Llewyn Davis, Dune Card Counter, Scenes From a Marriage, and most recently, Frankenstein. Oscar Isaac is of Guatemalan and Cuban descent. He spent the first years of his Life in Washington, D.C. before moving to Miami. Oscar Isaac, welcome back to FRESH air.
- [35:35]
Oscar Isaac
Thanks, Tanya. Very happy to be here.
- [35:37]
Tonya Mosley
We're gonna get to that intense fight in just a second.
- [35:41]
Oscar Isaac
But I said when we were shooting that, I said I hope that on my In Memoriam clip it'll just be me screaming, we had dinner with Bono.
- [35:50]
Tonya Mosley
I know, right? I know. But, you know, first I want to talk to you about this thing this acting coach told you to bring Victor into the room. Why was that the key to unlock this character, Josh?
- [36:03]
Oscar Isaac
Well, it was, it's interesting because it was that's almost accurate. There's elements that are but the time frame was actually I was in the midst of shooting already and I was having, I was kind of losing my voice a bit. I just felt like my throat was always so tight and I was having a hard time. And there's this wonderful acting teacher guru Kim Gillingham. And I met with her and I said, I'm having a really hard time. And I don't know. And on the way over I was actually, you know, thinking about Victor and how much fun that was. And then she had the great idea of like, well, let's, let's, you know, bring Victor back and let him talk to Josh. And so we did this exercise where, you know, form of hypnosis. And then she. She's like, now let Victor come and speak. And he came back and he was just so angry to be stuck in this little, tiny man. And so that feeling of being strangled was coming a bit from that, and it wasn't about letting go of that. Cause that's an important part of the character. But, yeah, it was a really interesting exercise to kind of bridge that gap, because sometimes, yeah, you're playing with energy and the nervous system is, you know, it was eight months or something of working on Frankenstein and then a tiny break, and then I was right into doing Beef. So to kind of have a physiological mindfulness about how to move into the new character was great.
- [37:30]
Tonya Mosley
You describe Josh as living in a small life, but he manages this world with a lot of old money and privilege. Can you explain that a bit more?
- [37:40]
Oscar Isaac
Yes. So Josh Martin, he works the general manager of Monte Vista Point Country Club. Very elite, lots of athletes, as he says in that clip. Titans of every industry. And he is the gm, and he worked his way up from the barn cart. He's been there since he was 16 years old. And it's taken a lot of work to get where he is. But he's great with people, and he's an incredibly hard worker, and. And his love language is service as well. But behind that, it's not a selfless service. I think he wants access, and there's something in him that feels he'll never be somebody that can become a member. And this is the closest he can get to have access to this kind of life.
- [38:32]
Terry Gross
Hmm.
- [38:33]
Tonya Mosley
Yeah. At the end of the day, he is the help, for lack of a better term.
- [38:38]
Oscar Isaac
That's right. That's what his wife says to him. She's like, they're not your friends. You're the help.
- [38:44]
Tonya Mosley
Thinking about this character, Josh and Beef, he doesn't belong there, really, but his way of giving back is through service. And then there is this fight where we just see another side of him. So he's charming to all of the people who are part of the club, but at home, this fight he has with his wife, I mean, we heard a little bit of it in the intro. It gets worse. Lindsay, his wife, picks up a golf club. You tell her, thank God we don't have kids, stuff like that. And so I'm thinking about you pulling from your role as Victor Frankenstein. In his case specifically, his cruelty kind of comes from a wound he can't look at directly. Where does Josh's cruelty live? I mean, is it Someplace different. Is it out of frustration?
- [39:31]
Oscar Isaac
I think with Josh, it's the. Yeah, it's the rejection that she's saying. It's like the kind of. I see through this identity that you created with Victor Frankenstein. He had no doubts the whole movie. He has very little doubt, which was a very freeing thing to play up until the moment of creation. And then after that, it's kind of all doubt. And that's when he kind of goes in within himself and. And ossifies. But this Josh is very different. Josh is mostly doubt and mostly reactionary. He's constantly trying to control the situation, which is what a lot of these GMs do as well. And he says, I let people win all the time. That's what I do. I remember talking to somebody that has the job, and he said, I'd go, and he wants me to play tennis with him. And I'm a really good tennis player, and we get a pro to come on as well, and we play. And I'm like, do you let him win? And he's like, of course I have to let him win. Like, not by a bunch. But I can't destroy his time there. You know, that's not the point. So I just found that very interesting. And, you know, and how little of a personal life one has in that situation, you know, it all gets mushed and melded together.
- [40:59]
Tonya Mosley
You did research. You spoke with someone who really has that job.
- [41:03]
Oscar Isaac
I did, yeah. Yeah, I did with a couple people. It's a very strange, foreign world to me. Although I did work at a golf club for a few months when I was 16, but it was more like. It was more like weddings that would happen in this small golf club. And I was a bit more of, like, a waiter, but it was. Yeah, I heard a lot of the same wedding songs over and over again and had to get out of there. But, you know, I was like. You could imagine some. You know, that's about the age that Josh was when he started, and he decided, no, this is my way in. And, you know, I did it in Lake Worth, Florida. This is in Montecito. Very different vibe. But I think he really sees, like, I've got something, and I've got something special and people like me, and I understand people, and I understand how to make them feel good. And I think, yeah, he sees a way into this life.
- [42:02]
Tonya Mosley
Okay, Oscar, I want to get into Frankenstein for a moment. And you have called. I've heard you a few times call Del Toro's Frankenstein a Mexican melodrama. And I Have never heard it described that way. What made it that?
- [42:19]
Oscar Isaac
Guillermo, because he is, you know, he wanted to approach it that way and invited certainly me and all of us to approach it that way, which was, you know, for him, it was a very autobiographical telling, at least in the expression of the film. And, yeah, it was just the way that we would approach every day. There was kind of this maximalist thing that was. Was happening, but that was deeply, deeply felt. I mean, it's like listening to a corrido. You know, it's like mariachi music where it's so passionate and because it's just like a. Such a deep, deep expression of both and expression and celebration of both joy and pain at the same time. So I think it was that kind of point of view that was very exciting. We have said that we spoke exclusively in Spanish to one another, which was so nice for me. I hadn't had that experience, certainly not with a director. I mean, it's really just with my mom and my aunts. So it felt like a real familial thing to do. And it's my mother tongue. So there was just something that just went deeper. It just went to some other part of my brain that usually isn't accessed in that way.
- [43:52]
Tonya Mosley
Can you describe it? Because I've heard that from people before, especially around language like Spanish. And your first time actually being directed in Spanish, did it unlock or add a dimension?
- [44:03]
Oscar Isaac
It did. I think it was just like a directness and a simplicity. Even with me. My vocabulary is not great, you know, maybe eighth, ninth grade, maybe, and Spanish. And so. But I would, you know, I would just. No matter what the question was, I would force myself to just express it in Spanish to him. And there was something about having to find the simplest way of saying what I wanted to say that. I don't know. It was a very interesting experiment. And. And since then, we speak nearly every day, and, yeah, I've gained this incredible family member. I mean, he's so passionate. I also describe him as the Mexican Buddha. You know, he has such wisdom and such generosity and zero pretension, but also cares deeply about the work that he does as well. So it's just. He's just an incredible human being and a real advocate for other people and advocate for other people's work. He doesn't ever trash anyone's work or speak negatively. I just found him to be an incredible example of how to be a person in this world, how to be a man, how to be an artist.
- [45:19]
Tonya Mosley
That sounds special. To now have this daily friendship With a director. Is that common for you?
- [45:27]
Oscar Isaac
I mean, not like this. This has been. This is a real family member of mine now. Like, there's a real closeness, and I have definitely gotten. Become friends with a lot of the people I've worked with. You know, it is such an intimate setting, and you go to deep places. And that's one of the things that is really special about this work. You know, we are carny folk. We are. We're circus people. But, like, we need to. We hold on to each other because it is such a strange bubble to be in, and it's such an elusive thing that we're searching for, that we're trying to find together. And it's often a very humiliating experience. It's a humbling experience.
- [46:10]
Tonya Mosley
To be an actor.
- [46:13]
Oscar Isaac
Yeah, to be an actor, I think to be an artist, but particularly to be a performance artist, you know, your own self, your body and your voice. That's the materials that you're working with, right? That's the high wire act, I think, is watching somebody battle their own ego and embarrassment. And, you know, and some people do it effortlessly and other people do lots of other wild things to battle that. And to do that with a character with incredible writing or with. Obviously, all of that adds to this kind of astounding feat, at least for me, when I watch it, thinking about it of, like, those great performances where you're like, how is that happening? And knowing how hard it can be to allow oneself to kind of get out of the way to let something happen, you know?
- [47:04]
Tonya Mosley
Okay, before we wrap, I have to ask you about your music. People who follow your career know that you were a musician in your young life, and you're known for this character that you played, a folk musician from inside Llewyn Davis. But you revealed recently on Late Night with Jimmy Fallon that you and your sons have a band. What's it called again?
- [47:30]
Oscar Isaac
Fleece.
- [47:32]
Tonya Mosley
Okay, that's really a punk rock name.
- [47:34]
Oscar Isaac
Fleece Featuring Cool Dude.
- [47:37]
Tonya Mosley
Wait, who's the cool dude?
- [47:39]
Oscar Isaac
That's my oldest son, Eugene. He kind of like. He's like. He's got his own thing, so he just, you know, we're one of the projects that he works with, but they haven't as much lately. It's like, actually, they've got the. You know, they're doing their drumming lesson right now. They're really into playing drums. I mean, they're so musical. But you know what? The band's. I gotta be honest, it's a little on hiatus for the last couple months. It's like suddenly they're just not as into jamming with dad. Maybe I got too much. I think I got too into it.
- [48:09]
Tonya Mosley
You think you. Yeah. Cause you know that happens when parents get too serious about it.
- [48:13]
Oscar Isaac
Yeah. I just killed the vibe.
- [48:15]
Tonya Mosley
I actually wanna play a clip. Two clips actually, from that late night performance. You talking about it. The first clip is your son singing, followed by a of you singing the song that you guys put together. Let's listen.
- [48:40]
Oscar Isaac
I love that. That's good. Pretty good, right? I mean, yeah. That's it.
- [48:44]
Tonya Mosley
And then here's you picking up the guitar.
- [48:53]
Oscar Isaac
You open the door The d need to rain. You just need a damn tour. I'm mad. You think it is in place you get locked on the world you think it is a race I'm going to drum on the race on top I'm going to drum to the rain it drops I'm going to drop mama man, I'm a drum. Oh, my God. Good Lord. I can feel it down in my vibe as free as time. You can't bake it your dad. You little dog. Good night, dude. This the end of the song. Goodbye. Call it the best song you ever seen.
- [49:36]
Tonya Mosley
Okay, now I know this is where you lost it. I think this is why Fleas broke up. Because you were on the Tonight Show.
- [49:42]
Oscar Isaac
Yeah. Yeah. They're like, you. No, man, you killed it. You totally. And not in a good way. We're an underground punk band. You can't go on the Tonight show and play the song.
- [49:51]
Terry Gross
Right.
- [49:52]
Tonya Mosley
I know. You know, I mean, I loved seeing that, though. That had to be really great to, like, have this connection with your sons from the place that you started to find your artistic voice.
- [50:04]
Oscar Isaac
Yeah, no, it is, it is. And like, you know, those are all his own lyrics. And to find a reason to do that and to play it and playing it for them. I mean, they were laughing. They thought it was so fun. It's a really fun thing to share with them. It's something my dad shared with me. He played music all the time and would record music and had guitars and things around the house. And that was a real connection for he and I as well. We really bonded over that. And so I was like, I want to have instruments readily available at all times just in case inspiration strikes and they want to go down and. And play. And that's been a really lovely thing.
- [50:46]
Tonya Mosley
Are you playing for yourself as well?
- [50:50]
Oscar Isaac
Sometimes? At times, yeah. I still do a bit for myself. It's interesting because when I get a little extra low, I'm like, You know what? I haven't played in a while and I play and that feels really good.
- [51:05]
Tonya Mosley
Oscar Isaac, it's been such a pleasure to talk with you and thank you so much.
- [51:10]
Oscar Isaac
Thank you so much. Real pleasure.
- [51:13]
Terry Gross
Oscar Isaac stars in season two of the Netflix series Beef. He spoke with Tonya Mosley. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our co host is Tanya Moseley. I'm Terry Gross.
- [51:34]
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