← Fresh Air
Loading summary
Transcript194 lines
- [00:01]
Tonya Mosley
This message comes from Capella University. That spark you feel, that's your drive.
- [00:05]
Kennedy Ryan
For more.
- [00:06]
Tonya Mosley
Capella University's flexpath learning format lets you earn your degree at your pace without putting life on pause. Learn more at capella Edu from WHYY in Philadelphia, this is FRESH AIR weekend. I'm Tonya Moseley in Los Angeles. Today we hear from the man who's been described as the Forrest Gump of rock and roll, Peter Asher. He discovered James Taylor and launched Carole King's career. Paul McCartney and John Lennon wrote I want to hold your hand in his family's basement. The new documentary about Asher is Everywhere Man. Also, romance novelist Kennedy Ryan talks about how she fell in love with the genre in middle school, even though her mother, a preacher, didn't approve. Ryan read them anyway and hid the evidence.
- [00:55]
Kennedy Ryan
Hundreds of romance novels like hidden at the back of my closet behind clothes. And it was like literally in my 30s when I was like, you know, when you told me to stop reading romance novels, I didn't.
- [01:07]
Tonya Mosley
And TV critic David Biancooley has a review of the Little House on the Prairie remake that's coming up on FRESH AIR weekend. This message comes from BetterHelp. People talk about mental health more openly now, but asking for help can still feel hard. BetterHelp's 2026 State of Stigma report surveyed 2,000Americans and found that 85% believe getting support is wise, yet 74% say society discourages people from doing so. Don't let stigma stand in the way of support. Start therapy with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com NPR this message comes from Lisa. Meticulously designed mattresses backed by free shipping, easy returns and a 120 night sleep trial. Visit Lisa.com for 30% off today, plus get an extra $50 off with promo code.
- [02:02]
Terry Gross
NPR this week on Wait, Wait, don't tell me.
- [02:06]
David Biancooli
We talked to legendary musician Jason Narducci about being in a punk band when he was just 11 years old.
- [02:11]
Peter Asher
We broke up when I was 12.
- [02:13]
Kennedy Ryan
And yeah, I just felt like I
- [02:15]
Peter Asher
needed to go through puberty without band.
- [02:19]
David Biancooli
Don't miss our full conversation and the rest of our games. Listen to the Wait, Wait, don't tell Me podcast in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:28]
Tonya Mosley
Are we doomed?
- [02:29]
David Biancooli
Helps you understand humanity's biggest threats, climate
- [02:32]
Terry Gross
change, pandemics, nuclear weapons stuff still hits planets.
- [02:35]
Peter Asher
Divided we stand, divided we fall.
- [02:37]
David Biancooli
How worried should you actually be?
- [02:39]
Kennedy Ryan
And what can we do?
- [02:40]
Tonya Mosley
I'm Ben Bradford.
- [02:41]
Peter Asher
Join me for Are We Doomed?
- [02:43]
David Biancooli
Part of the NPR network. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:49]
Tonya Mosley
This is FRESH AIR weekend. I'm Tanya Moseley. Terry has our first interview.
- [02:54]
Terry Gross
One of the successful British Invasion bands of the 60s was the duo Peter and Gordon. Peter is my guest, Peter Asher, who later became a famous record producer. The first record Peter and Gordon released became a number one hit in England and the U.S. that song, a World Without Love was written by Paul McCartney for the Beatles, but John Lennon didn't like it, so Paul put it away until Peter asked to record it. Paul had been living in the Asher family home where Peter, his sisters and his parents lived. We'll hear why a little later. It's a great story. So here's A World Without Love from 1964.
- [03:33]
Peter Asher
Please lock me away and don't allow the day here inside where I hide
- [03:43]
Terry Gross
with my loveline
- [03:47]
Peter Asher
I don't care what they say I won't stay in a world without love Birds sing out a tune and rain clouds hide the moon I'm okay here I'll stay with my
- [04:06]
Terry Gross
loneliness
- [04:09]
Peter Asher
I don't care what they say I won't stay in a world without
- [04:14]
David Biancooli
love
- [04:18]
Peter Asher
so I wait and in a
- [04:20]
Terry Gross
while I will see my true love
- [04:24]
Peter Asher
smile she may come, I know not when when she does I lose so baby, until then lock me away.
- [04:34]
Terry Gross
Peter and Gordon went on to have other hits including Nobody I know, I don't want to see you again, and I Go to Pieces. After the duo Split up in 1968, Peter became the first A&R man at the Beatles new Apple record label. The first person he signed was James Taylor, who had never recorded before. Peter didn't stay long at Apple. He moved to la, produced and managed Taylor, and helped turn him into a star. He introduced Taylor to Carole King and launched King's performing career. He produced and managed Linda Ronstadt. Other artists he produced over the years include Randy Newman, Cher, Neil Diamond, Morrissey, Diana Ross, Elton John, Bonnie Raitt, Barbra Streisand, Robin Williams and Steve Martin. Wow, that's really a phenomenal list. Pete Asher is part of other important moments in music history. Peter co owned the gallery where John first met Yoko. While her work was on exhibit there, Peter was unintentionally responsible for Mick Jagger meeting Marianne Faithfull, which began their romance. In addition to the many Grammys his artists won, he he won three producing Grammys and in 1977 was on the COVID of Rolling Stone. A new documentary chronicles Peter Asher's life. It's called Peter Everywhere Man. It's playing in select theaters around the country. Peter Asher welcome to FRESH air. I really like this documentary. You've had such an interesting life. So let's start with World Without Love. Did Paul ever explain why John rejected it?
- [06:15]
Peter Asher
I think it was the lyrics. First of all, I don't think it's quite true to say that Paul wrote it for the Beatles. I think he wrote it pre Beatles, actually.
- [06:23]
Terry Gross
Oh, that's right. You say he wrote it.
- [06:24]
Peter Asher
Correct. He was like 16 or something like that, which is extraordinary. And I think what John didn't like about it was the lyrics that he thought that Please lock me away was an absurd line to put in the song. And so he would actually say to Paul, okay, I will lock you away. The song's over.
- [06:40]
Terry Gross
So it's copyrighted to Lennon McCartney.
- [06:44]
Peter Asher
Everything was, yes, I know.
- [06:45]
Terry Gross
And Paul told me one of the times I interviewed him that he regrets having the Beatles songs that Paul or John wrote independently credited to both of them, especially because even if Paul wrote a song himself, the credit started with Lennon, Lennon McCartney.
- [07:01]
Peter Asher
I'm not sure I agree with Paul about that. I think it was something particularly charming and emphasized the closeness of their relationship that they agreed to credit everything to the two of them. And I think that was actually a very fair division of credit and saved them any arguments, because at the beginning, of course, they did actually write together. The songs they wrote in our house in London, as you point out, were songs that John came over. They sat down together at the piano or together with two guitars facing each other and wrote together. So I think that even if they just later did it in commemoration of those moments of togetherness and creativity, I think it was kind of a cool thing to do.
- [07:42]
Terry Gross
So since you were talking about them writing songs together, let's hear a clip from the documentary. And this is a part where Paul is talking about living with your family and what that was like. And it leads into writing with John Lennon at your home. And in the second part of this clip, we'll hear you.
- [08:03]
Peter Asher
It was such a family. Claire was a very nice younger sister, a lot of fun. And then there was Peter. Interesting br. I could talk to him about anything. And also very interested in music, very musical. So there's a lot of connection there. They got a piano in my room, and there was a piano in the basement as well. So when John came to visit, we could write there on the piano. At the same time, there was a little music room in the basement. And I do remember one particular occasion. Shortly after Paul had moved in, John came over and he and Paul went down to this Music room. They were down there for a couple of hours and then Paul called up the stairs to me in my bedroom and asked if I wanted to come down and hear this song they had just finished writing. They sat side by side at the piano and hammered out the first version anyone had ever heard of this brand new song they had just finished called I want to hold.
- [09:01]
Terry Gross
You'd handle Peter Asher. Your reaction was what when you heard the song?
- [09:08]
Peter Asher
Amazement. I mean, I thought, am I losing my mind or is this one of the best songs I've ever heard in my life? Or possibly both. But I was thrilled and amazed. And they looked at me for some kind of reaction and I said, I think that's amazing. And perhaps the biggest giveaway is the fact that I immediately asked them if they could play it again. And perhaps the second giveaway is the fact that they were delighted to play it again. I think they knew that they'd written something special. Whether they had in mind the fact that it was gonna changed the whole attitude of the whole world, starting with America, that everyone was gonna become a Beatle fan when they heard I wanna hold your hand, that that was the magic track that set off the American Beatlemania epidemic. I don't know. But that's what it turned out to be.
- [09:53]
Terry Gross
So Paul was living with your family because your sister Jane Asher was a famous actress by then and Paul was her boyfriend.
- [10:01]
Peter Asher
Yes.
- [10:02]
Terry Gross
The Beatles had a home in London for when they were there, but Paul found it too chaotic. He must have moved in very early in the Beatles career, because if he and John hadn't yet written I want to hold you'd hand, that had to be pretty early.
- [10:15]
Peter Asher
That's a good point. Yes, that's correct. I'm very bad at dates, as I told you. But yes, that certainly would be true.
- [10:22]
Terry Gross
So watching Paul's fame, what did it teach you about what it means to be famous because you were on the verge of becoming famous yourself?
- [10:33]
Peter Asher
It's a good question. I don't really know I learned anything about becoming famous. And certainly nobody was famous in a way that compared to the Beatles in any sense. But certainly when we got to America, there's no question the template for the famous British Invasion member had been sort of set by the Beatles. And that all the girls who chased you around the streets and stuff, which they did, were following what they'd seen in the Beatles movie and how they knew everyone reacted to the Beatles. The screaming reached fever pitch and we were lucky to be sort of part of that whole madness. And it was a thrilling time did
- [11:11]
Terry Gross
you always feel lucky that girls were chasing after the band and that they were screaming? Probably so loud they couldn't actually hear the music that you were playing and you might not have been able to hear Gordon when you were singing with
- [11:25]
Peter Asher
him on stage yes, that was very annoying that was true I mean, it was certainly one of the downsides of the technology of that era the monitors hadn't been invented yet at all oh, you had no monitors, no monitors at all let alone the fancy in ears that we all have today so we couldn't hear ourselves at all I mean, Ringo, I remember, did an interview explaining that he knew where he was on the song by watching the backs of Paul and John he could tell from their movements which bit of the song they were in but you couldn't hear anything between the screaming and the technological setbacks it was.
- [12:00]
Terry Gross
It was guesswork it must have been strange for you from going to a guy who was playing small clubs to suddenly having a number one record touring America, getting on the Ed Sullivan show it's like an extreme jump it was
- [12:18]
Peter Asher
indeed I mean, I often say that there was a comparison between. At one point, I remember when I was. Before I'd even made the record, I was at university reading philosophy at London University and bicycling home from school four in the afternoon in the dark and the rain Very often, if it was a British winter and only less than a year later I think I was instead driving down Sunset Boulevard in the broad sunshine in a rented Mustang being recognized by beautiful women and at that point I kind of went, this isn't a substantial improvement, you know, I think this is better so I made the decision to quit university, of course, and. And take up this pop stuff full
- [12:59]
Terry Gross
time did it change your self image to have women chasing after you?
- [13:04]
Peter Asher
No, but it's fun, that's for sure I don't think it. I don't know, it changed my self image Did I suddenly feel suave and grown up and manly? I don't think so I think my insecurities remained intact but it was certainly amusing
- [13:19]
Terry Gross
so you loved American jazz, folk music, rock and roll and suddenly you go to America and everybody's really absorbed in the British Invasion, Americans were in love with British bands Was that incomprehensible to you?
- [13:34]
Peter Asher
It was a surprise I mean, because that's the whole miracle of the British Invasion we loved all this music, you know, as you said, folk music and jazz and I was a big jazz fan and it just was extraordinary and then we learned all this music, R and B and the Everly Brothers in our case and so on and dec. Who wished to emulate among the stars of American music. And then the miracle is that we somehow learned it all and tweaked it slightly and sold it all back to you. It was a remarkable achievement from a business point of view, I suppose I
- [14:09]
Terry Gross
want to mention another connection between your family and the Beatles, which is your mother was a professional oboe player. She performed with symphonies and taught oboe at the Royal Academy of Music. Also taught private lessons. And one of her private students was George Martin, who later became the Beatles producer. I don't think he was producing them yet. Am I right about that?
- [14:32]
Peter Asher
That's right, yeah. I don't think so, No, I think that's correct, yeah. It was an extraordinary coincidence. So by the time my mother was introduced to George Martin as her daughter's boyfriend's record producer, she was like, oh, it's George, you know. She had given him private lessons because he was concerned about passing his exams at the Guildhall School of Music and he had. Oboe was his second instrument and he required some further training evidently, but presumably it was successful.
- [15:05]
Terry Gross
In the 60s, while you were performing and recording with Gordon, your singing partner, you also became the co owner of a bookstore and an art gallery that were part of London's underground culture of the time. So the gallery that you co owned is where John and Yoko met during a period when the gallery was exhibiting her work. Were you there when they met?
- [15:32]
Peter Asher
I was there when John showed up, but I can't remember. I wasn't actually the person who introduced them or anything, but John came in his Mini Cooper with a chauffeur and yeah, it was John Dunbar who ran the art half of the Indica operation and he'd seen Yoko or talked to Yoko or something and he suggested that Yoko would be a good person to be, you know, exhibited in our gallery, which she was indeed. I certainly saw John there at one point, but I don't think I was the person who actually physically introduced them. So the gallery, even though sometimes they get blamed for it in that context.
- [16:08]
Terry Gross
But that gallery was the place that the whole controversy started about whether Yoko broke up the Beatles.
- [16:17]
Peter Asher
Well, exactly. I mean, it's funny because I tell the story as part of my stage show, which is half stories, half music. When I tell that story it gets such wildly different reactions at different days because sometimes it's a, ah, you know, what a sweet love story. Other times it's kind of, I don't know. And then finally one time that only this happened. As soon as I told the story, somebody jumped up to their feet and said, it was you. You broke up the Beatles. And I had to say, no, I didn't, you know, because I didn't.
- [16:50]
Terry Gross
Not, not your fault. You are not my fault.
- [16:53]
Peter Asher
Exactly. Exactly.
- [16:54]
Tonya Mosley
So we're listening to Terry's interview with record producer Peter Asher. The new documentary about him is called Everywhere Man. We'll hear more of their conversation after a break. I'm Tanya Mosley and this is FRESH AIR weekend.
- [17:08]
Kennedy Ryan
This message comes from Lisa Leesa. Mattresses are meticulously designed and assembled in
- [17:14]
Tonya Mosley
the USA for exceptional quality. And they back it all up with free shipping, easy returns and a 120 night sleep trial. Beautifully crafted mattresses tailored to how you sleep. Feel the difference from night one? Visit Leesa.com for 30% off today. Plus get an extra $50 off with promo code NPR. That's L E-E-S A.com promo code NPR. This week on Short Wave, could your
- [17:41]
Kennedy Ryan
next ride to the airport be in a flying taxi? So you open up your Uber app and you've got UberX and Uber pet and now they'll be Uber Air. That reality may be only a few years away, but how is this futuristic travel possible? Find out on Short Wave.
- [17:57]
Tonya Mosley
NPR Science Podcast Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [18:03]
Kennedy Ryan
The Emmy nominations are here.
- [18:04]
David Biancooli
We're unpacking record breaking nominations for hacks,
- [18:06]
Peter Asher
plus a big day for the Pit
- [18:08]
David Biancooli
and newcomers like Widow's Bay.
- [18:09]
Tonya Mosley
We'll talk about some snubs and make
- [18:11]
Peter Asher
some early predictions of who will win. Listen to Pop Culture Happy hour via
- [18:15]
Kennedy Ryan
the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [18:19]
Tonya Mosley
This is FRESH AIR weekend. I'm Tonya Moseley. Let's get back to Terry's interview with record producer Peter Asher. Americans first knew him as half of the sixties British invasion band Peter and Gordon. Their hits included A World Without Love, Nobody I Know and I Go to Pieces. Asher went on to become a Grammy winning record producer. His first two enduring music relationships were were with James Taylor and Linda Ronstadt.
- [18:47]
Terry Gross
So in terms of your music life, you went through a transitional time in the late 60s. Gordon Waller, your singing partner, decided he wanted to go solo and you knew that you wanted to produce recordings.
- [19:03]
Peter Asher
I did. The minute I went into the recording studio and figured out what producers did, I thought this would be so cool. You know, I love the idea of being able to influence the arrangement and, and mix and sound and identity, musical identity of a song before you had
- [19:21]
Terry Gross
produced any record, you became the first A and R man for the Beatles new Apple record label. A and R stands for artists and repertoire. Describe what your job was.
- [19:31]
Peter Asher
Well, Apple took this very bold step of actually soliciting tapes because normally there's kind of no unsolicited material was supposed to be sent in to most major record companies. But we actually took ads going, you know, send your tapes to Apple Records. And God, did they ever. We got giant mailbags full of tapes. And the sad thing was they mostly were not any good. And not just that. It'd be weird stuff like somebody sends in 100 pages of lyrics that they know John Lennon is anxiously awaiting to write music for and things like that. You'd suddenly realize there's an awful lot of odd people out there who think they should need to be signed to Apple Records. But eventually, of course, we did find a few good people, but usually not, sadly through the unsolicited tapes. They usually came through connections or friends or coincidences like me meeting James and things like that.
- [20:28]
Terry Gross
Well, the first person you signed was James Taylor. And you did not find him in the slush pile. How did you find him?
- [20:35]
Peter Asher
Well, when Gordon and I played America, we were supplied backup bands kind of locally. There'd be some promoter in, say, the Midwest or something would find a band to back you up. And usually we'd just find an out of work local group who would do it for cheap. And so the quality of those bands varied enormously. But one band that I actually liked that came to us in that manner was a band called the King Bees. And one of the King Bees was a guitar player called Danny Korchmar. And Danny and I became great friends. We remain great friends to this day. He's a brilliant guitar player and a remarkable man. And then subsequently, Danny was in a band with his childhood friend James Taylor. That band was called the Flying Machine. And it suffered all the vicissitudes that living in New York could convey. And, you know, there were drug problems and money problems and food problems and all this other stuff going on. So finally that band broke up. James decided to go to London. And when Danny found this out, he said to James, you should look at my friend Peter Asher. He's okay. So that's how I got My phone rang and this guy aunt said, you know, very sort of cultured, slightly southern accent, explained that he was friend of Cooch's. And I said, great, you know, if you're in London, come over. I mean, come and visit. So he came to dinner the following evening. And he'd already made a demo tape the previous week. And he played me a couple of songs on the tape, and I was completely blown away. And then he picked up my guitar, which is leaning in the corner of the room, and played me something live. And I couldn't believe it. I thought his guitar playing was exceptional, his singing was exceptional, and the songs were brilliant.
- [22:19]
Terry Gross
One of my favorite James Taylor recordings is Fire and Rain from his second album, Sweet Baby James, which of course, he produced. And it's a song about a friend who died by suicide. Did he tell you the story behind the song?
- [22:31]
Peter Asher
A little bit. I mean, he's told it publicly. I mean, Suzanne was a friend who had killed herself. And I think people didn't want to tell him or something, so there was some delay in him actually getting the information. And of course, there's the thing about flying machines in pieces on the ground, and there's been much misinterpreted and people think it relates to a plane crash, and it doesn't at all. The flying machine was the band, as I explained before, that he was in with Cooch that broke up. So that was the flying machine in pieces on the ground.
- [23:06]
Terry Gross
So I want to play Fire and Rain, which was recorded in 1970, and I want our listeners to know that it's Carole King on piano. And after we hear this, you can explain why and how you got her to play. Just yesterday morning they let me know you were gone
- [23:35]
Peter Asher
Suzanne, the plans they
- [23:36]
Terry Gross
made put an end to you I walked out this morning and I wrote down this song.
- [23:47]
Peter Asher
I just can't remember who to send it to.
- [23:53]
Terry Gross
I've seen fire and I've seen rain I seen sunny days that I thought
- [24:01]
Peter Asher
would never end
- [24:04]
Terry Gross
I've seen lonely times When I could not find a friend But I always thought that I'd see you again okay, so how did you get Carole King to play piano on that, and why?
- [24:24]
Peter Asher
Well, actually, Danny Korchmar is a key figure yet again in this story. Because when I came out to la, I wanted to put together a little band to play on the whole track because I wanted to keep it much simpler than the preceding album had been and to make sure that every song was based entirely around the arrangement that was sort of self contained in his guitar playing and his singing. And I found a drummer called Russ Kunkel, and Danny Kortrymore himself was gonna play guitar, obviously. And then I was trying to choose a piano player. And by this time, I'd heard some of Carole King's demos. I Already was a huge fan of hers. Goffin and King wrote so many of my favorite songs. Of course, you know, will you say love me tomorrow being the first one when she was 18 that was number one all over the place. And that went on to do, you know, natural Woman and I'm into something Good and up on the Roof. And I loved Carole King's piano playing specifically. Cause it was very much an accompanist kind of piano playing. Not flashy, not complicated, but just right sort of sing a songwriter piano. So I got to meet Carol through Danny Kortchmar. I then asked Carol if she would consider playing on this James Taylor album that we were about to make. I said I would need you for about five days. I love your playing. I think you and James would sound great together. And she said maybe. And she didn't know who James was. So I invited her over to my house where James was staying at this point. And she sat down next to James at the piano bench. James played his guitar and she started playing piano. I suggested they just sit and start playing. And it worked perfectly. I thought her piano playing was exactly, exactly what I had in mind. And James loved her too. And of course he was a Carol fan already. And so we sort of booked Carol, as it were, as a studio musician for the next five days. And that was when we recorded every track on Sweet Baby James. And if you look, you'll see that Carole King is credited on piano on every one of them.
- [26:27]
Terry Gross
And that's how Carole King and James Taylor became friends and collaborators.
- [26:31]
Peter Asher
Yes, exactly.
- [26:32]
Terry Gross
So I want to thank you so much for talking with us. The film is fascinating. The documentary about you called Everywhere a Man. And I wish you good health and continued performances in producing.
- [26:46]
Peter Asher
Thank you very much indeed.
- [26:48]
Tonya Mosley
Peter Ascher speaking with Terry Gross. Netflix is presenting a new version of Little House on the Prairie based on the popular series of books by Laura Ingalls Wilder. All eight episodes of season one are available to stream and Netflix has already ordered a season two. Our TV critic David Biancooli has some thoughts about this new remake and about the original NBC series from 1974 as well. Here is his review.
- [27:21]
David Biancooli
When Laura Ingalls Wilder started writing her Little House on the Prairie book series in the early 1930s, it was as a fond salute to her own childhood memories. Laura was born shortly after the Civil War in 1867 in the very log cabin she describes in her first book, Little House in the Big Woods. That book and her later ones detailed the joys, the difficulties and the hard work involved in pioneer life as seen and told from the perspective of a precocious young girl. Laura loved her ma and Pa and her siblings, but she observed them all carefully and perceptively. She was to Little House on the Prairie what John Boy was to the Waltons, another nostalgic family TV series set during an earlier time, in that case, the Depression. The characters of both John Boy and Laura displayed a gift for writing early on and narrated their family's stories. When Michael Landon, after spending years as Little Joe on Bonanza, brought Little House on the Prairie to NBC in the 1970s, he cast himself as the patriarch Pa Ingalls. But the storytelling, as in the books, belonged to little Laura, played in that series by a young Melissa Gilbert.
- [28:39]
Kennedy Ryan
If I had a remembrance book, I would mark down how it was when we left our little house in the
- [28:45]
Terry Gross
big woods to go west to Indian territory.
- [28:49]
David Biancooli
That Little House series was very popular and ran from 1974 to 1983. Especially in the early episodes, it was faithful to the original books and characters. When an Osage Indian chief came by the Ingalls cabin, Pa invited him in for a sit and a smoke. Ma was frightened, as was Laura's elder sister, and was relieved when he left. But Laura was charmed and sympathetic to his tribe's plight. What Laura says in that 1974 premiere may sound like liberal Hollywood rewriting, but the empathic dialogue, like much of the TV series, came straight from the original books.
- [29:30]
Kennedy Ryan
Thank goodness he's gone.
- [29:32]
Peter Asher
Why?
- [29:33]
Terry Gross
I thought it was kind of nice
- [29:36]
Peter Asher
for an Indian.
- [29:38]
David Biancooli
Well, I wouldn't be upset about it.
- [29:41]
Peter Asher
A few months from now, there won't be an Indian left in the territory.
- [29:45]
Terry Gross
But why not, Pa? Government's gonna make a move half by night.
- [29:50]
Kennedy Ryan
Move where?
- [29:53]
Terry Gross
West, I guess. I'm glad I'm not.
- [29:59]
Kennedy Ryan
Does Odat Duchene have to go too, even though he's a chief?
- [30:04]
Peter Asher
I'm afraid so.
- [30:07]
Kennedy Ryan
It's not fair. They were here first.
- [30:10]
David Biancooli
The new incarnation of Little House on the Prairie is created for TV by Rebecca Sonnenschein. Her writing credits include Housemaid and episodes of the TV series the Boys and the Vampire Diary. She and the show's other writers, as well as the directors, take some liberties with their new version. They introduce an entire family of Osage characters, for example, to present another set of family dynamics. One thing they don't mess with, though, is Laura as the central voice. She's played here by Alice Halsey, whom you may remember as the brilliant daughter on Lessons in Chemistry. And her performance is the show's very best, a show that starts as before with Laura's opening narration.
- [30:53]
Kennedy Ryan
Once upon a time, Pa and Ma and Mary and Laura left their house in the big woods of Wisconsin. Ma was sad to leave her life
- [31:07]
Tonya Mosley
behind, but Pa said it was getting
- [31:09]
Kennedy Ryan
too crowded and we needed a fresh start in the West. Every day the horses traveled as far
- [31:18]
Tonya Mosley
as they could, and Pa and Ma
- [31:20]
Kennedy Ryan
made camp in a new place.
- [31:22]
David Biancooli
Warren Christie is another standout. He plays John Edwards, a Civil War veteran and sometimes drunken loner who agrees to help the Ingalls build their log cabin before winter sets in. Charles, that's Pa to Laura, likes him, but Caroline, that's Ma, fears him as much as she does the Osage and sends him away. Luke Bracey plays Pa and Crosby Fitzgerald plays Caroline.
- [31:49]
Tonya Mosley
He's not coming back.
- [31:52]
Terry Gross
What?
- [31:55]
Kennedy Ryan
He was drinking here at our home. He said he didn't do it while
- [32:00]
Terry Gross
you work, but I. I didn't believe him.
- [32:01]
David Biancooli
What'd you say?
- [32:06]
Kennedy Ryan
I told him not to.
- [32:07]
Tonya Mosley
To come back until he didn't need something to chase.
- [32:09]
Kennedy Ryan
The ship doesn't work like that.
- [32:10]
Tonya Mosley
You don't just snap your fingers, make it go away.
- [32:15]
Peter Asher
His wife is gone. His girls are gone. He got chewed up and spit out
- [32:20]
Kennedy Ryan
by the godforsaken war. You knew. You knew and you didn't say anything.
- [32:25]
Peter Asher
Caroline, we are alone at sea. We don't have room for this obsession with virtue.
- [32:30]
Kennedy Ryan
It's not virtue. I don't want to lose my family,
- [32:33]
Peter Asher
finish this house without it.
- [32:35]
David Biancooli
Their argument is intense, but as filmed, there's something off about it. Like many other scenes in this new Little House on the Prairie, it's shot by handheld cameras in extreme close up and calls too much attention to itself. Also, some of the dramatic plot points that work so well in the books than in the NBC series are less effective here because they're not established or presented as well. The familiar title of Little House on the Prairie may bring lots of viewers to this new version, but I can't say it really resonates, except for the performances of Alice Halsey as Laura and Warren Christie as Mr. Edwards. But I will say that the entire original series of Little House on the Prairie is available to stream on Peacock. And when I dove back in there to refresh my memory, that series really did resonate.
- [33:27]
Tonya Mosley
David Biancooli is FRESH air's TV critic. Coming up, we hear from romance novelist Kennedy Ryan. Her characters are the people romance has often left at the margins. Black and indigenous queer women, people living with disabilities. This is FRESH AIR weekend.
- [33:44]
Kennedy Ryan
This message comes from Lisa Leesa. Mattresses are meticulously designed and assembled in
- [33:49]
Tonya Mosley
the USA for exceptional quality and they back it all up with free shipping, easy returns and a 120 night sleep trial. Beautifully crafted mattresses tailored to how you sleep. Feel the difference from night one. Visit Lisa.com for 30% off today. Plus get an extra $50 off with promo code NPR. That's L-E-E-S A.com promo CODENPR
- [34:17]
Terry Gross
we're having
- [34:17]
Kennedy Ryan
such a sports summer.
- [34:19]
Tonya Mosley
The New York Knicks won the NBA
- [34:20]
Kennedy Ryan
championship, the World cup is in full swing, and a new season of Love
- [34:23]
Tonya Mosley
island has brought us back into the villa.
- [34:26]
Kennedy Ryan
On It's Been a Minute, we talk about how this summer we're all coming together to root for our favorite sports
- [34:30]
Tonya Mosley
teams and our favorite couples.
- [34:32]
Kennedy Ryan
Listen to It's Been a Minute on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [34:39]
Tonya Mosley
This is FRESH AIR weekend. I'm Tonya Moseley. Say the words romance novel and watch what happens. Some people light up, others roll their eyes. Almost nobody is neutral. It's the best selling fiction in the world, outselling mysteries and thrillers. And yet it's still the genre feel they have to defend or apologize for. I've always wanted to know what makes a writer choose a genre that has historically been shunned by critics in mainstream publishing. My guest today, Kennedy Ryan, is one of those writers, and in some ways, her path is typical of the field. For one, Kennedy Ryan isn't her real name. Many romance writers use pen names. She didn't get her first publishing deal until 40, which is also common. 45 is the average age of the genre's most successful writers. Kennedy Ryan's love for romance began in middle school when she'd sneak the books past her mom, who was a preacher. She came back to it after building a career in journalism and autism advocacy. Her characters are the people romance often leaves at the margins, black and indigenous queer women, people living with disabilities, navigating ambition, caregiving and grief. Ryan builds them the way she once built news stories by going out and interviewing real people first. Ryan is the first black writer to win romance's highest honor, the Romance Writers of America Award, known as the Rita. Her best selling novel, before I Let Go is being adapted for Peacock. And her latest book, score, follows two former college sweethearts reunited while making a film about the Harlem Renaissance. Kennedy Ryan, welcome to FRESH air.
- [36:24]
Kennedy Ryan
Thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here.
- [36:27]
Tonya Mosley
The paradox is really interesting to me because millions of people read fiction, but people are so Drawn to romance. Romance outsells every other kind of fiction, but critics have been kind of condescending about it for hundreds of years. You looked at romance and decided, this is where you wanna go. You wanna go all in. What was it about romance for you?
- [36:52]
Kennedy Ryan
Yeah, I think, like you said, I was young when I first discovered romance. I think it was one first introductions to seeing what relationships looked like. Besides, obviously, the one that was in my house, which was very healthy, fortunately, with my mom and my dad. But I liked, I think, the escape of it, too. I mean, I was only in the eighth grade, but I liked being transported kind of to another world. And there was a glamour to it, especially then. So this is like the heyday of the bodice rippers and harlequin presents. And so it was usually very glamorous kind of setting. I was living in rural North Carolina with, like, deer on my front porch, you know, so the glamor of it, I think, really drew me. And just this idea that you could be in another world and also that just kind of seeing women especially loved and esteemed and at the center of something. I was a voracious reader, so I was reading a lot of things, but romance quickly became my favorite. And so. And, you know, I left it a little bit after high school, but in my 30s, I came back because it was. It was. It was an escape. And I think it was a reflection of a lot of hopes and dreams and desires and needs, and I think that's what draws a lot of people to it.
- [38:13]
Tonya Mosley
Your latest novel, Score. It follows two former college sweethearts who broke up badly a decade before, and they're kind of thrown back together, making a film about the Harlem Renaissance. And Verity is the main woman character, and she's a screenwriter. She also has bipolar disorder. And I don't think I've ever read a book about love and desire from the point of view of a person with a mental illness. How did you come to decide to give your character this type of backstory?
- [38:50]
Kennedy Ryan
I am interested in writing the stories of people who don't typically see themselves at the center of cultural narratives. And you know what I mean by that is usually it's not the. Usually it has been the black girl, the fat girl, the sick girl, the disabled girl. She was the sidekick. She was a secondary or a tertiary character, but she certainly wasn't at the very center, and she wasn't the one who was getting the happily ever after. And I want to take those identities and those experiences and those communities that have been on the periphery of cultural narrative and set them firmly at the center. This is the second book in the series. The first book was a heroine who has lupus. You're not reading a lot about. I mean, not that it doesn't happen at all, but there aren't a lot of romance novels that are focused on women who are navigating lupus, you know, and now women, yes, there are a
- [39:43]
Tonya Mosley
lot of women who, particularly black women, who suffer from lupus. It's one of the highest autoimmune diseases. So you've done a lot of research here and really trying to figure out not only your audience, but the realities of your audience.
- [39:58]
Kennedy Ryan
Yeah, for sure. And I think a big part of this series and kind of a lot of what I write is there's someone for whom you're not too much. And what I mean by that is we all hope that there is someone who's gonna love us through hard times, through bad times, through difficult situations. You know, in real, the book, before this book, one of the series where the heroine has lupus, she's going through a flare, you know, and she's self conscious because she has lesions and she has bald spots and her body, she is in a battle. And yet this romantic partner, he's impervious of all of that. Like, he's like, I love you. I'm here for you. I'm gonna stand by you. You just be surprised at all of the emails and messages and DMs that I get from women who are living with chronic illnesses who are incredibly moved by that, because that is their hope. You know, their hope is that there is someone in real life who will love them that way, you know, even given difficult circumstances that they're navigating in real life. I want that you asked, you know, about romance. Romance, to me is the genre of hope and it's the genre of joy. And people sometimes talk about the happily ever after being, quote, unquote, predictable. But every genre has its. You know, these are the boundaries of the genre. These are the things that you can expect from the genre. And it's just that with, you know, romance, it's a happily ever after. Me especially writing black and brown and queer and chronically ill and fat people. Like, when I am writing those ideas that in the real world, a lot of times our outcomes are compromised. A lot of times our outcomes are not as good as other groups. I can create a world where we are guaranteed joy.
- [41:45]
Tonya Mosley
I want to go back to your childhood for a moment. You growing up in a small town in North Carolina. When you say small, how small are
- [41:54]
Kennedy Ryan
we talking it is? So it was so small that like, it had a phone number for one town. We had a P.O. box. No, a route. We had a route for our mailing address. And I went to school for another town. Like it was in between small towns. Basically. This is a strip of land that my grandfather owned. And like as far as the eye could see, it was just farmland that he owned. And he sold off all of these plots of land to put his kids. I think it's 12 of them. My dad will kill me because I get it wrong, but put all of his kids through college and he only kept. He kept a plot of land for each of them. And that was our community. So you're talking about basically community of my family. It's my uncle living to the left and it's my uncle living to the right. And it's my uncle, you know, living in front of me, who's raising hogs and on a Christmas morning brings us a little white cheesecloth bag with slaughtered, you know, sausage. And it's pear and peach trees in my backyard. It's, you know, a grapevine, it's cherry trees, it's a garden. My dad coming straight home from work, going straight to like pulled collard greens and string beans. I am a country girl, you know, through and through. It sounds like that sounds through, through and through. And yes, yes.
- [43:13]
Tonya Mosley
Your dad was also a college administrator. Yeah, for several HBCUs, historically black colleges. It's interesting because they feature prominently in many of your books. They often HBCUs are there. He was an academic and your mother a preacher?
- [43:35]
Kennedy Ryan
Yes, yes. Well, I mean, and my mom had a full time job. She was a dental hygienist, but she also was a preacher. And then later on that's what she did full time. And now they're both preachers. Now they have a church together. But yeah, so, I mean, I grew up. My dad is such a huge part of why I love language. You know, he has two master's degrees and a doctorate. But my mom is the one who really fostered my love of reading. Cause she's a big reader and I'm the classic, you know, before we had screens, you know, with the flashlight under the covers, reading well into the night. So I had. They're amazing. They, you know, they have that famous
- [44:18]
Tonya Mosley
shaping force, that famous story that you tell all the time about your mother saying, oh, no, you cannot read these types of novels. But do you remember what you were reading and what she caught you reading?
- [44:34]
Kennedy Ryan
You know, and it wasn't even a caught because I didn't know that she would object. I was reading. I don't remember the specific title, but it was a historical romance, you know, and it's got like a woman on the COVID with her brain spilling over the bodice and, you know, a half naked man. And I'm like, look, mom, you know, I just. I didn't. It didn't. I was just like, I love this. And my mother was.
- [44:58]
Tonya Mosley
Well, back in the day, they used to have them along the grocery store checkouts.
- [45:01]
Kennedy Ryan
Yes, yes, absolutely. And I would. I was at the. The library was like one of my favorite places in the world. And it's not like was this expansive library and it was this huge selection, but I loved it. You know, it's where I first read Jane Eyre. It's where I first read, you know, all of the classics and Toni Morrison. And you know, like, that's where I found. That's where I kind of discovered my love for language and for reading. And then one day I was like. I think I was in the eighth grade and one of my classmates handed me one of the like, historical romances. That's how I came into it, was she handed it to me. Cause she loved it. And I took it home and started reading them. And I didn't even think to like, hide it from my mom. It's just I. She. I told her about it or she saw me with it and she was horrified, you know, and then I was. She was like, you, you are not allowed to read them, you know, with distance from it. I understand why she was monitoring what I in. In, you know, what I ingested. I completely understand that because we now have parental controls and all of those things. But as an eighth grader, you're just like, I'm gonna do what I want to do. I'm gonna sneak around and do it. If you tell me that I can't do it. So. Yeah, but it's a funny story for us now because I did not tell her until I was in my 30s that I had hidden all those romance novels from her. She thought I had stopped reading them, so.
- [46:28]
Tonya Mosley
Because after she told you to stop, you continued and then you just collected them. So many that you kind of had a little stockpile in closet or something.
- [46:36]
Kennedy Ryan
Oh yeah. In my closet. Oh yeah. Hundreds and hundreds of romance novels, like hidden at the back of my closet behind clothes. And it was like literally in my 30s when I was like, you know, when you told me to stop reading romance novels, I Didn't you know, I
- [46:50]
Tonya Mosley
want to go to a very, very important, pivotal moment in your life that really changed things for you. It was before you started writing fiction. Your son. You have one son. He was diagnosed with autism. Two years old, and the very next day, your husband loses his job. Yeah, take me. Take me to that week.
- [47:17]
Kennedy Ryan
Oh, one of the toughest weeks of my life, I think, because my son is now 25 and 23 years ago, like, the landscape for autism was very different than it is now. Like, we didn't have a lot of the solutions. We didn't have a lot of the supports, the waivers, the, you know, the financial support, insurance. Everything was considered experimental. So you're paying out of pocket for everything. And then I think there was just a lot we didn't know. Like, literally when the doctor diagnosed my son, he told me that I should. Told my husband to give me time to grieve. That's the word he used. And he said, you know, motherhood is going to be just so different than what she thought it would be. And it has been very different than I thought it would be. I think, you know, autism is a spectrum, and it looks different for different people. And my son is very impacted. Even at 25, he's still only partially verbal. And, you know, he kind of works at his own. His own time. You know, there are certain benchmarks that I thought he would reach when he was 10 that he still hasn't reached or that he reached much later. One of the things I think that this journey has taught me is not to compare myself, my son, our life to anyone else's.
- [48:39]
Tonya Mosley
Things got really dark.
- [48:41]
Kennedy Ryan
You're.
- [48:42]
Tonya Mosley
In this moment, the healthcare system has not really caught up to what it needs to for you as a mother. And the financial impact was just. It was a lot for you in that time.
- [48:54]
Kennedy Ryan
Yeah.
- [48:55]
Tonya Mosley
Instead of only surviving it, though, you built this advocacy group, then a therapy group for couples going through it. And I, Kennedy, I just always marvel at people who build the thing they need when they have the least amount of resources or power. And when did you realize you'd have to build the thing that didn't exist in order for you to actually survive?
- [49:21]
Kennedy Ryan
Yeah, I think it kind of a lot of times came down to, am I gonna pay for therapy or am I gonna pay my light bill? And I was like, thinking, we. We shouldn't have to make these decisions. My husband and my. Both of our cars were repossessed. We woke up one morning, the cars were gone. We had to do a short sale in our house. We didn't have food sometimes.
- [49:41]
Tonya Mosley
And my.
- [49:41]
Kennedy Ryan
It taught me a lot about community, too. You know, people just kind of rallying around us and making sure that our family had what we needed. And I just kind of said to the Lord one day, like, when I'm. I'm praying, I'm meditating, and I'm like, I just don't want anybody else to go through this. Like, I don't want anybody else to have to make these decisions. These are impossible decisions. And I decided to start a foundation. I did not have a lot of money. Like, I was not in a place where people would think, oh, you should start a foundation. I was like, I need help, too. But I examined the gaps. People are only getting speech and OT in school, and when somewhen it's summer, a lot of those kids weren't getting those services anymore. So I raised money so that we could supplement and that we could pay for that. And then we had. A lot of couples were experiencing marital strain, Whether it's at the very beginning or people who have been in this a really, really long time and are worn down. We started doing marriage retreats. We also started paying for couples therapy. And then I thought about, gosh, if. If it's this hard for me and I have a partner, how hard is it for people who are single parents? And then we started programming that was specifically targeting single parents and their ent. Like, all of their children. So for me, it was just kind of like a reflection of the gaps that I was seeing.
- [51:07]
Tonya Mosley
So you're going through all of that, and, like, what was it like at night then? You're sitting at a computer and then writing romance. Is that how it worked?
- [51:15]
Kennedy Ryan
Or how you're like, how did we get here? You know, my husband found a job, and it took him away a lot at night. And so it was just me and my son. And this is when he was younger. And a lot of kids who are on the spectrum are fascinated with water. And my son was so fixated on water. He and I would go to this river because we lived in Atlanta at the time. We lived in Atlanta for 20 years. You know, that's kind of home to us for the most part. I would take him to this river in Atlanta every evening, and he would frolic, you know, And I, as I was sitting there, this. This community built around a river called Rivermont just started kind of in my imagination. And it became the centerpiece for the first series that I ever wrote, called the Bennett series that just sitting on the riverbank. Every night watching my son play in the water, I just started dreaming about this imaginary place called Rivermont and this family and, you know, all of and it became four books, you know.
- [52:15]
Tonya Mosley
Kennedy Ryan, thank you so much for this conversation.
- [52:18]
Kennedy Ryan
Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me.
- [52:22]
Tonya Mosley
Romance novelist Kennedy Ryan. She's the first black author to win the Rita Romance's highest honor, and she's published more than 20 novels in just over a decade. Her latest novel is called Score. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer this week is Adam Stanischewski. Our digital media producer is Molly CB Nesper with Terry Gross. I'm Tonya Moseley.
- [53:00]
Peter Asher
You know, Every day on Up First, NPR's Golden Globe nominated morning news podcast.
- [53:04]
Terry Gross
We bring you three essential stories. the heart of each story are questions.
- [53:10]
Peter Asher
What really happened? What really mattered?
- [53:12]
Terry Gross
What happens next?
- [53:14]
Kennedy Ryan
At npr, we stand for your right
- [53:16]
Peter Asher
to be curious and to follow the facts.
- [53:18]
Terry Gross
Follow up first wherever you get your
- [53:20]
Peter Asher
podcasts and start your day knowing what matters and why.
- [53:25]
Kennedy Ryan
Each story you hear on Planet Money
- [53:26]
Tonya Mosley
starts with a what happens if we refund tariffs? Why are groceries so expensive?
- [53:34]
Kennedy Ryan
At npr, we stand for your right to be curious because the forces shaping
- [53:39]
Terry Gross
our world can be hard to see. Follow NPR's Planet Money wherever you get
- [53:44]
Kennedy Ryan
your podcasts and start seeing how the economy really works.